[{"content":"","date":"4 August 2025","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/","section":"James Fricker","summary":"","title":"James Fricker","type":"page"},{"content":"","date":"4 August 2025","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/posts/","section":"Writing","summary":"","title":"Writing","type":"posts"},{"content":"A ring buffer aka circular buffer that holds some kind of data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_buffer).\nThe requirements are that the buffer has some fixed size, and we have at least one consumer of events and one producer of events.\nThe consumer reads events if they exist in the buffer, and the producer will continue to produce events unless the buffer is full.\nIn this task, we seek to implement such a buffer in rust. We extend this to the multi-threaded version to deepen our understanding of rust and threading concepts in general.\nYou can see my complete implementation in this gist.\nRing Buffer # First, let\u0026rsquo;s implement the actual structure for our ring buffer.\nStruct # #[derive(Clone)] struct Job { job_id: u32, } struct RingBuffer { buffer: Vec\u0026lt;Job\u0026gt;, capacity: u32, size: u32, // always \u0026lt;= capacity write_index: u32, read_index: u32, } Here we have a buffer that we use to store objects, this is just a vector. We have a capacity which is effectively the max size. A size attribute to track the current size. We also need a read and write index to know where we are up to with current reads and writes.\nImplementation # ​ impl RingBuffer { fn new(capacity: u32) -\u0026gt; RingBuffer { let buffer = vec![Job { job_id: 0 }; capacity as usize]; // Initialize with capacity RingBuffer { buffer, capacity, size: 0, write_index: 0, read_index: 0, } } ​ fn add(\u0026amp;mut self, job: Job) -\u0026gt; bool { if self.size \u0026gt;= self.capacity { return false; } self.buffer[self.write_index as usize] = job; self.write_index = (self.write_index + 1) % self.capacity; self.size += 1; true } ​ fn read(\u0026amp;mut self) -\u0026gt; Option\u0026lt;\u0026amp;Job\u0026gt; { if self.size == 0 { return None; } let job = \u0026amp;self.buffer[self.read_index as usize]; self.read_index = (self.read_index + 1) % self.capacity; self.size -= 1; Some(job) } } In new, we need to simply create an empty buffer. In this case we create one with an empty first item.\nFor add, we need to check that there is room in the buffer. If there is, we add the item and increment the write index.\nFor read, it\u0026rsquo;s basically the same. If there is an item to read, then we read it and increment the read index, decrement the size.\nProcessing # Single Threaded # Next we move to our main function, where we can show the single threaded version.\nprintln!(\u0026quot;Single Threaded version!\u0026quot;); ​ let mut jq = RingBuffer::new(8); ​ // this is the single-threaded version for i in 0..5 { let j = Job { job_id: i }; if jq.add(j) { println!(\u0026quot;Added job with id: {i}\u0026quot;); } } ​ // read all the jobs from the queue while let Some(job) = jq.read() { println!(\u0026quot;Read job with id: {}\u0026quot;, job.job_id); } This is relatively straightforward. Write some items to the buffer and read them. Looks good to me.\nSingle Threaded version! Added job with id: 0 Added job with id: 1 Added job with id: 2 Added job with id: 3 Added job with id: 4 Read job with id: 0 Read job with id: 1 Read job with id: 2 Read job with id: 3 Read job with id: 4 Multi-Threaded # This is where things get a bit more complicated. How do we do multiple threads in rust?\nWe need a few things for this.\nFirst, we create a shared struct.\nstruct Shared { buf: Mutex\u0026lt;RingBuffer\u0026gt;, // protects the data not_full: Condvar, not_empty: Condvar, } Here we have our RingBuffer from before, but this time it\u0026rsquo;s wrapped in a Mutex. ThisMutex is used to ensure only a single thread can perform operations on the RingBuffer at a time.\nWe also introduce, not_full and not_empty. These are Condvar\u0026rsquo;s. A Condvar is a variable that represents the ability to block a thread. For example we can wait until not_full is true to continue writing items, or wait until not_empty is true to continue reading items.\nIn Python you have threading.Condition, C/C++ has pthread_cond_t and Go has sync.Cond.\nNow, we can create our shared object.\nprintln!(\u0026quot;Multithreaded version!\u0026quot;); ​ let number_of_jobs = 20; let num_producers = 2; let num_consumers = 2; // run the multi-threaded version ​ let shared = Arc::new(Shared { buf: Mutex::new(RingBuffer::new(5)), not_full: Condvar::new(), not_empty: Condvar::new(), }); It\u0026rsquo;s important that we wrap our shared object in an Arc (Atomically Reference Counted). This property enables us to share this object with multiple threads. In our case, we have a read and write index attributes. Using the Arc, we can share this object among our multiple threads.\nProducer # let mut producer_handles = Vec::new(); for prod_id in 0..num_producers { let producer_buf: Arc\u0026lt;Shared\u0026gt; = Arc::clone(\u0026amp;shared); let prod_handle = std::thread::spawn(move || { for i in 0..number_of_jobs { // create the job with desired number let job_id = number_of_jobs * prod_id + i; let j = Job { job_id }; // get the mutex let mut guard = producer_buf.buf.lock().unwrap(); // while full, wait while guard.size == guard.capacity { guard = producer_buf.not_full.wait(guard).unwrap(); } // now not full, so add guard.add(j); println!(\u0026quot;Added job with id: {} by producer {}\u0026quot;, job_id, prod_id); // notify that the queue is not empty anymore producer_buf.not_empty.notify_all(); } }); producer_handles.push(prod_handle); } Now to create our producers.\nWe first grab our version of the shared object. Then we create a unique job, wait until we have capacity to add, and then we add our item. Finally we also notify other threads that the queue is no longer empty.\nConsumer # let mut consumer_handles = Vec::new(); ​ for cons_id in 0..num_consumers { let consumer_buf = Arc::clone(\u0026amp;shared); let consumer_handle = std::thread::spawn(move || { let mut jobs_read = 0; while jobs_read \u0026lt; number_of_jobs { let mut guard = consumer_buf.buf.lock().unwrap(); // wait for things to not be empty anymore while guard.size == 0 { guard = consumer_buf.not_empty.wait(guard).unwrap(); } // not empty let job = guard.read(); consumer_buf.not_full.notify_all(); println!( \u0026quot;Read job with id: {} by consumer {}\u0026quot;, job.unwrap().job_id, cons_id ); jobs_read += 1; } }); consumer_handles.push(consumer_handle) } Our consumer also grabs the shared object, waits until we have items to read and then reads them. Once done it notifies that the buffer is no longer full.\nThreading # Finally, we join these handlers up together, and we have a multithreaded version working.\n// Join all consumers first for handle in consumer_handles { handle.join().unwrap(); } // Join all producers for handle in producer_handles { handle.join().unwrap(); } We can see that things look like they are working in the output:\nRead job with id: 11 by consumer 0 Read job with id: 12 by consumer 0 Read job with id: 13 by consumer 0 Read job with id: 20 by consumer 1 Added job with id: 21 by producer 1 Added job with id: 22 by producer 1 Read job with id: 21 by consumer 0 Read job with id: 22 by consumer 0 Added job with id: 14 by producer 0 Added job with id: 15 by producer 0 Added job with id: 16 by producer 0 Read job with id: 14 by consumer 0 Read job with id: 15 by consumer 0 Added job with id: 17 by producer 0 Added job with id: 18 by producer 0 Added job with id: 19 by producer 0 Read job with id: 16 by consumer 1 Read job with id: 17 by consumer 1 Conclusion and Extensions # So there you go, a multi-threaded ring buffer in rust.\nSome extensions that could be added\nring buffer supports a generic type\ncreate some benchmarks to inspect performance\nplay with external libraries like Tokio or crossbeam-queue.\nimprove performance by removing using of locks in a lock-free queue. Some discussion on potential data structures\n","date":"4 August 2025","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/writing-a-ring-buffer-in-rust/","section":"Writing","summary":"A ring buffer aka circular buffer that holds some kind of data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_buffer).\nThe requirements are that the buffer has some fixed size, and we have at least one consumer of events and one producer of events.\n","title":"Writing a Ring Buffer in Rust","type":"posts"},{"content":"BACK with some tech news and tech info.\nThis week is special! Thanks to Suno.ai, we have an official welcome song for this newsletter. (Recommend playing around, it’s free)\nListen Here\nWelcome to the newsletter. 🎉\nContent this week\nWrite Ahead Logs 🤖\nRye, Serverless/Diskless Kafka, Cloudflare Python Workers, and more!\nTheory # Write Ahead Logs # A write-ahead log is used in a database for distaster recovery purposes. The WAL is an append only log, that is written to before the database transaction actually starts.\nIf the database goes down during a transaction, the transaction can be redone by looking at the WAL if it is not already reflected in the database.\nThe WAL grows with each transaction, so it does need to be flushed after a certain amount of time. The flushing of the WAL is known as a checkpoint.\nIn summary, the WAL is used to increase the durability of a database.\nBigger, very complex discussion is found in Architecture of a Database System.\nNews # Rye # If you write Python, this might be interesting to you. Arguably the best Python linter at the moment is Ruff, the same team (Astral Labs) has also recently announced UV, which is a Python package manager. (Charlie Marsh, the guy behind Astral was recently on ‘Talk Python To Me’ to discuss uv).\nAlso recently, the team took over the Rye project. Rye was created by Armin Ronacher who is also the creator of the very popular Flask framework.\nThis set of tools (ruff/uv/rye) is set to come together to produce a much better Python development experience.\nAlthough I haven’t used much Rust, the folks behind these tools seek to create a similar experience that cargo is to Rust, for Python. Which I am here for!\nInstalling Python tools at the moment is very slow, there are many tools for linting, and Python versions are managed badly. Hoping to see these projects go big 🤞\nCloudflare Python Workers # Link\nPreviously, to run Python in edge compute, you’d need to compile it to Web-Assembly. This would also package a Python runtime like CPython. With these Python Workers, you can run Python directly in the browser, no wasm compilation step is needed. Each python worker can share the same CPython runtime. Sounds awesome!\nTwitter thread discussing this by the Tech Lead of the team that built it.\nReplit Code Repair and Replit for Teams # https://blog.replit.com/code-repair\nhttps://blog.replit.com/teams-beta\nThis thing just keeps getting better and better. These folks have some pretty insane features shipping.\nCode repair just fixes your code for you as you go 🤯. The demo is wild.\nReplit for teams looks insane too, it’s like going from Word to Google Docs. Would be very keen to give these things a go. I wonder if replit uses replit to develop their apps 🤔\nServerless Kafka With No Local Disks # Link\nGOAT’ed engineer Richie Artoul talks about his product Warpstream, and how they do exactly what it says on the label.\nHuggingFace Backdoor # Link\nSome folks uploaded a backdoored model to HuggingFace and managed to get root access to the entire HuggingFace K8’s cluster on AWS. An interesting read!\nUntil next time,\nJames\n","date":"6 April 2024","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/walle/","section":"Writing","summary":"BACK with some tech news and tech info.\nThis week is special! Thanks to Suno.ai, we have an official welcome song for this newsletter. (Recommend playing around, it’s free)\nListen Here\nWelcome to the newsletter. 🎉\nContent this week\n","title":"🤖 WAL(LE)","type":"posts"},{"content":"Gm friends! It’s been a while 👀\nAfter some social pressure and a spurt of motivation - we are back!\nWelcome to the newsletter. 🎉\nSkip Lists 🧐 # The current Bradfield CSI module is ‘Data Structures for Storage and Retrieval’. In this module, we are looking at key/value databases, and the data structures used within them. Broadly, we want to have two main functions, Get and Put.\nWe started by asking how you would structure a basic in-memory database.\nThere are many ways you could do this, but one solution is to store the key/value pairs in a sorted linked list. There are a few issues with this.\nThe main one: it’s kinda slow.\nTo find a key, we need to traverse half of the entire elements on average. Same when we ‘put’ a new key into the sorted list.\nSo, to solve this slowness, we use what is known as a Skip List. (Original Skip List Paper).\nA skip list is essentially a multi-level linked list. Each element exists on the lowest level, less on the second level, even less on the third and so on.\nWhen we want to do a Get or a Put, we first search through the highest level. If we can’t find the key we need, we drop down a level and continue our search there. This then progresses until we find our desired key.\nBy using the multiple levels, we can traverse through the sorted list more quickly.\nConsider if we have 8 elements. We may have 8 on the lowest level L1, 4 on L2, and 2 on L3. Then, when searching for a key, we can start on L3 and effectively skip half of the list when searching.\nHow does this work when we keep adding keys? Do we need to keep rebalancing the list? It turns out, no we don’t.\nThe level that a key goes up to is decided by probability. Essentially a coin flip takes place, and if we flip heads, the key gets added to the above level. Four heads in a row means the key is on every level until level four!\nIn this way, the list is essentially self-balancing. Pretty interesting stuff.\nThis data structure is used in Redis, LevelDB and probably some other databases.\nWikipedia, in case you are curious.\nIn case I didn’t explain it well, here is an interactive visualisation.\nMojo 🔥 # An exciting programming language! This week the team open-sourced the standard library. It’s a step in the right direction, but many of us are still waiting for the holy grail - the compiler.\nMojo was on Hacker News this week.\nMojo is a programming language that is meant to be a superset of Python. It promises the easy syntax of Python with the speed of Rust.\nRecently the team presented the high-level details. I found this presentation quite interesting.\nOther Stuff I Liked This Week # The What, Why and How of Containers\nSBF went to Jail\nSocceroos beat Lebanon 5-0\nCybersecurity, Beginner To Expert Course (Free)\nExplain an entire industry with one book (some great picks here)\nABC says the income needed in Sydney to buy an average house is $290k\nSomeone messed with the Linux kernel and created a backdoor (big story!)\nI’m not very familiar with the details here, but this sounds like an interesting thing to read about Happy Easter! 🐣\nJames\n","date":"31 March 2024","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/skipping-into-easter/","section":"Writing","summary":"Gm friends! It’s been a while 👀\nAfter some social pressure and a spurt of motivation - we are back!\nWelcome to the newsletter. 🎉\nSkip Lists 🧐 # The current Bradfield CSI module is ‘Data Structures for Storage and Retrieval’. In this module, we are looking at key/value databases, and the data structures used within them. Broadly, we want to have two main functions, Get and Put.\n","title":"⏭️ Skipping into Easter","type":"posts"},{"content":" Contents # Contents OLTP OLAP What is the difference between an OLTP and an OLAP database?\nOLTP # OLTP stands for \u0026ldquo;Online Transation Processing\u0026rdquo;.\nExamples\nPostgreSQL Google Cloud Spanner MariaDB MySQL OLAP # OLAP is \u0026ldquo;Online Analytical Processing\u0026rdquo;.\nExamples of OLAP databases\nApache Druid DuckDB Clickhouse ","date":"19 March 2024","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/databases/olap_v_oltp/","section":"Others","summary":"Contents # Contents OLTP OLAP What is the difference between an OLTP and an OLAP database?\nOLTP # OLTP stands for “Online Transation Processing”.\n","title":"OLTP v OLAP","type":"other"},{"content":"","date":"19 March 2024","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/","section":"Others","summary":"","title":"Others","type":"other"},{"content":"It\u0026rsquo;s finally time.\nThe end of the year is a time to review the past and set a new vision for the future.\nPrevious Reviews\n2022 Review Mitch, Grandma, Me, Dad and Grandpa at Easter 2023 # A year of changes and hard work this year! I put lots of effort into my work this year, in which I learnt heaps. I also moved in with my partner, which has been great so far!\nGreat Things That Happened This Year # SSBA Completion Starting Bradfield CSI Google Cloud Architect Certification 100km Round The Bay (Bike Ride) ANZAC Day Service Concerts and Events: Robbie Williams, Paul McCartney, The Imperfects, Mamma Mia, Left North Left, Footy, Soccer, Swimming + more Toastmasters Experiences Queensland Trip Australian Open ANZAC Morning Service in Melbourne 2023 Goal Review # Now that the year is done, how did I do? Here are some of the goals I set at the start of 2023.\nReview: Top Goals for 2023\nGoal Status Become a Senior Software Engineer (or get pretty close) ❌ Run a half marathon ❌ Become President of SYTM ✅ Take More Photos ❌ Make more predictions ❌ Share More ❌ Speak at an event ✅ Turns out that I failed most of the things that I set for myself! On the one hand, it\u0026rsquo;s disappointing, but on the other, it\u0026rsquo;s somewhat expected. At this time of year, we typically make goals in our \u0026lsquo;best\u0026rsquo; state of mind, and we quickly fall out of this over the next few days.\nDespite this, I did achieve many things that I didn\u0026rsquo;t originally have on my list of goals.\nFor example, I didn\u0026rsquo;t run a half-marathon, but I did do the 100k round the bay bike race! I\u0026rsquo;d say this is a success.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t take more photos or make more predictions. I\u0026rsquo;d like to do this more this year. One thing I am absolutely committed to is a weekly newsletter. I want to collect the things I\u0026rsquo;ve read, reflect on them, create space to think, and write. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t even have to be good! It can be short, long, whatever, but I think just doing it every week and sharing it will do a lot of things for me.\nThe Start of the 100k Round the Bay Lessons Learned From This Year # This year I learned:\n2024 # Top Goals for 2023\nWeekly Newsletter ","date":"31 December 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/2023-review/","section":"Writing","summary":"It’s finally time.\nThe end of the year is a time to review the past and set a new vision for the future.\nPrevious Reviews\n2022 Review Mitch, Grandma, Me, Dad and Grandpa at Easter 2023 # A year of changes and hard work this year! I put lots of effort into my work this year, in which I learnt heaps. I also moved in with my partner, which has been great so far!\n","title":"2023 Review - 2024 Resolutions","type":"posts"},{"content":"The Internet is a fascinating and complex system. This article investigates one part of the internet through the program known as traceroute. After this article, you will know,\nWhat traceroute does What the IP protocol does What an autonomous system is What the BGC protocol does What is Traceroute # Traceroute is a simple program. To start run something like traceroute google.com in your shell.\nYour output will look something like this:\n❯ traceroute google.com traceroute to google.com (142.250.70.142), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets 1 10.5.0.1 (10.5.0.1) 3.216 ms 2.296 ms 2.283 ms 2 loop2021532200.bng.vic.aussiebb.net (202.153.220.1) 7.951 ms 7.202 ms 8.926 ms 3 10.241.5.114 (10.241.5.114) 6.562 ms 6.953 ms 5.793 ms 4 10.241.4.77 (10.241.4.77) 6.348 ms * 7.327 ms 5 142.250.165.14 (142.250.165.14) 6.821 ms 8.155 ms 7.637 ms 6 * * * 7 216.239.56.48 (216.239.56.48) 8.822 ms mel04s01-in-f14.1e100.net (142.250.70.142) 5.807 ms 172.253.53.97 (172.253.53.97) 8.352 ms What is happening here?\nSimply, traceroute is tracing the route of a packet from your local machine to the destination. In this case, google.com.\nWhat is IP? # IP stands for the Internet Protocol. There are two common versions of this protocol, v4 and v6.\nYou may have seen an IPv4 address before, it looks something like what we have above: 142.250.165.14. An IPv4 address consists of 4, dot-separated 8-bit integers. That means there are around ~4 Billion IPv4 addresses. There aren\u0026rsquo;t many, especially when we consider all devices on the internet.\nThis lack of space, and other reasons, led to IPv6. An IPv6 address looks like this: 2345:0425:2CA1:0000:0000:0567:5673:23b5. In IPv6, there are 8 groups of 4 sets of 4-bit, base 16 integers. This gives us about 340 trillion addresses. Should be enough for quite some time!\nHow do packets travel? # What is BGP? # ","date":"8 December 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/computer_networks/traceroute/","section":"Others","summary":"The Internet is a fascinating and complex system. This article investigates one part of the internet through the program known as traceroute. After this article, you will know,\nWhat traceroute does What the IP protocol does What an autonomous system is What the BGC protocol does What is Traceroute # Traceroute is a simple program. To start run something like traceroute google.com in your shell.\n","title":"Tracing Traceroute: What I learnt about the Internet","type":"other"},{"content":"I hope you are well! This week we dive into Compilers.\nSystems Programming and Compilers # The mountain of compilation, from Crafting Interpreters.\nWe start on the bottom left and end on a different node at the bottom of the mountain.\nCompiling C for example, results in Machine Code, while Python results in Bytecode.\nOn the way we do:\nScanning, to convert our code into tokens.\nParsing, to convert our tokens into an Abstract Syntax Tree.\nAfter some optimisation of the tree, we convert the AST to either, another language, bytecode or directly to machine code.\nGo Compiler is written in Go? # I was very surprised when I first heard this. How can one language’s compiler be written in the same language?\nIt turns out, this is the case not just for Golang, but also for Java and others.\nThe secret lies in the first implementation of the compiler.\nWhen the language is first created, the compiler is written in an existing language, eg C. This can be used to compile the new language. Then, a compiler is written in the new language, and compiled with the C compiler.\nNow we have a working compiler written in the same language!\nThe next version of the compiler is compiled using the previous version, and so on.\nInteresting stack overflow post discussing this here.\nGo moved from a C compiler to a Go compiler in 2013. Some interesting readings on why they did this here.\nJust In Time (JIT) Compilation # A blog post from Mozilla on how JIT works. Our code starts executing, we run some kind of profiler to work out where we are spending the most time, then we compile those parts directly to machine code.\nAn interesting discussion here on why you might choose to not use JIT.\nOxide Computer # Oxide Compute was recently announced as generally available. Some big names in Computer Science are behind this initiative, will be very interesting to see where this goes.\nThe key idea for this company is that you should be able to buy cloud resources, not just rent them.\nI Love Go; I Hate Go # Interesting article about the pros and cons of Go. Personally, I enjoy Go and think it’s excellent!\nZero Allocation Protobuf Parsing in Go # Molecule is a Go library for parsing protobufs in an efficient and zero-allocation manner\nPretty interesting stuff! Looks like this makes sense when you need to unpack only a subset of fields from a large proto message.\nOn Trusting Trust # The 40th anniversary of the original paper, this is an interesting discussion on how to create a compiler to do nasty things to your code.\nAlso, this Numberphile video.\nEnd # That’s all for this week, expect to see learnings on systems programming and compilers next week!\n","date":"29 October 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/jittery/","section":"Writing","summary":"I hope you are well! This week we dive into Compilers.\nSystems Programming and Compilers # The mountain of compilation, from Crafting Interpreters.\nWe start on the bottom left and end on a different node at the bottom of the mountain.\n","title":"🏃‍♂️ Jittery!","type":"posts"},{"content":"After one week\u0026rsquo;s break, we are back again with another edition!\nLet’s dive in.\nSystems Programming and Compilers # After completing our networking mini-course, we start on Systems Programming and Compilers this Monday.\nSo far, I’ve learned about Abstract Syntax Trees, and how they are used to parse language.\nIn particular, I’m interested to learn more about Just-In-Time (JIT) compilation, and garbage collection.\nQuantization # This word has appeared more and more when it comes to LLMs and how to train these models efficiently. This lecture was shared with me recently, as a primer on how quantisation works.\nSeatle Data Guy # I’ve been following this guy for some time. He’s a data engineer from Seattle doing some pretty cool things. He’s hit multi-millions in revenue and runs his own consulting business.\nThis week, he released a newsletter about his journey.\nFrom Day One to 100: The Seattle Data Guy Journey in One Special Issue\nEnd # That’s all for this week, expect to see learnings on systems programming and compilers next week!\n","date":"21 October 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/the-return/","section":"Writing","summary":"After one week’s break, we are back again with another edition!\nLet’s dive in.\nSystems Programming and Compilers # After completing our networking mini-course, we start on Systems Programming and Compilers this Monday.\n","title":"🔙 The Return","type":"posts"},{"content":"I’ll be honest, it was a slow week this week.\nDespite this, I’ve read a few interesting things and shared them below.\nI hope you enjoy!\nWhat I Learned This Week # Why IPv6 Sucks # As the number of devices using the internet grows, society needs to migrate from IPv4 to IPv6. This article on IPv6 makes me chuckle, and I often share it with friends.\nNAT Traversal # A deep article on Network Address Translation, and how it works.\nPython 3.12 # Python 3.12 came out this week. I’m most excited about the improved f-string functionality and looking forward to improvements in linting.\nARP Chat # This one is pretty crazy. The author also wrote this article on ARP and how it works.\nHTTP/3 Adoption # A timely article and HN discussion on the merits of HTTP/3. It will be interesting to watch as HTTP/3 weaves its way into more use cases.\n🔚 # Thanks for reading,\nJames\n","date":"7 October 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/the-link-layer/","section":"Writing","summary":"I’ll be honest, it was a slow week this week.\nDespite this, I’ve read a few interesting things and shared them below.\nI hope you enjoy!\nWhat I Learned This Week # Why IPv6 Sucks # As the number of devices using the internet grows, society needs to migrate from IPv4 to IPv6. This article on IPv6 makes me chuckle, and I often share it with friends.\n","title":"🔗 The Link Layer","type":"posts"},{"content":"Week 40 of this year and into Q4, almost time for Mariah Carey to enter the radio waves.\nThis week, we seek to understand the difference between the Web and the Internet.\nWhat I Learned This Week # The Difference Between the Web and the Internet # What is the difference between the Web and the Internet?\nIs the web the same thing as the internet?\nIt turns out, the web is a subset of the internet.\nLoosely, the internet is the infrastructure that transfers packets between endpoints. HTTP is an application layer protocol that uses the lower layers of the internet, to provide content primarily to web browsers. HTTP is used for many things in addition to this primary use case. The web is powered by lower-level protocols and HTTP.\nIn contrast, the internet is more than just HTTP. There are other use cases for the internet and even other application layer protocols, like email (SMTP), peer-to-peer networks (torrents) and file transfers (FTP).\nReverse Proxies # A proxy server is a server that sits between your device and the internet. You might also have a company proxy where all of your organisation’s traffic is routed through that proxy. The proxy might do things like caching requests or blocking certain content.\nA reverse proxy is similar to this, but instead, it sits in front of your website’s server. Nginx is one example of a reverse proxy.\nAs of March 2022, Netcraft estimated that Nginx served 22.01% of the million busiest websites\nA reverse proxy will do many of the same things as a normal proxy like caching but also things like load balancing. Article on this from Cloudflare here.\nFixing the Web # Tim Berners-Lees is the original creator of HTTP, which many see as the incarnation of the Web. It’s not described in much detail during this interview, but the interviewees share some great points about the future of the web.\nCurrently, we have a problem where our personal data is quite siloed. We have data with Google, data with Facebook, and data with other companies. This data is all separate, and can’t be easily combined.\nImagine if you owned your data, and you chose to share that with a travel company, or when finding a place to eat. Your entire history could be seen, including previous travel, photos, reviews, friends etc. Perhaps this opens it’s own privacy concerns, but owning your blob of data gives you much more control over who you share that data with, and the quality of insights you can have by sharing it.\nTypescript Doco # Javascript was implemented in 10 days by Brendan Eich. Since then, people have realised that types are quite helpful. This is a documentary on the history of Typescript.\nHTTP2 Primer # Interesting (very) technical talk on HTTP2.\nIntroduction to Quic # Quic is a transport layer protocol, developed by Google, that powers applications using HTTP3. It’s not widely used yet, but I imagine we will see more of this in the coming years.\nPersonal # Completing the “Round The Bay” 100k bike ride next weekend (strava) 🔚 # Thanks for reading,\nJames\n","date":"1 October 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/the-web-and-the-internet/","section":"Writing","summary":"Week 40 of this year and into Q4, almost time for Mariah Carey to enter the radio waves.\nThis week, we seek to understand the difference between the Web and the Internet.\nWhat I Learned This Week # The Difference Between the Web and the Internet # What is the difference between the Web and the Internet?\n","title":"🕸️ The Web and The Internet","type":"posts"},{"content":"What is up friends and welcome to another edition.\nI missed last week because of life, but we are back on the train this week 🚂\nLet’s choo-choo right along to what I learned about over the last fortnight.\nThings I Liked and Learned This Week # Domain Name System # This week at CSI, we started our course on Computer Networking. I wrote a quick, short guide to DNS. We also wrote a small DNS client in Go. Good fun!\nOne interesting takeaway is that there are only 13 root servers in the world. All are owned and operated by US-based institutions. Crazy to think that the web is built on these kinds of foundations.\nGo For-Loops are fixed # In Go 1.22, they will fix an interesting for-loop issue.\nfunc main() { done := make(chan bool) values := []string{\u0026quot;a\u0026quot;, \u0026quot;b\u0026quot;, \u0026quot;c\u0026quot;} for _, v := range values { go func() { fmt.Println(v) done \u0026lt;- true }() } // wait for all goroutines to complete before exiting for _ = range values { \u0026lt;-done } } This will print “c”, “c”, and “c”, which is not expected.\nInterestingly, this issue also affects Python code. There is some discussion there, but it seems that the community has decided that the change will impact too much existing code, and will not be done.\nGolang, though, it’s full steam (🚂) ahead.\nI’ll admit I haven’t looked into this in great detail, but it’s something I’d like to come back to.\nA High Throughput B+tree for SIMD Architectures # Now this is something that seems very cool. I also have dug into this much, but I’m sure this kind of thing is extremely interesting.\nBun 1.0 # Bun 1.0 was released. This caused quite a stir on Twitter. It seems that this is a significant improvement on existing JS build tools. Keen to give this a try.\nGoogle Rust Course # One for the bookmarks, Google has their own Rust course.\nPretty interesting! Would like to give this a go at some stage.\nEnd # That’s all for this week, I’ll see you again next time!\n","date":"23 September 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/the-magic-number-13/","section":"Writing","summary":"What is up friends and welcome to another edition.\nI missed last week because of life, but we are back on the train this week 🚂\nLet’s choo-choo right along to what I learned about over the last fortnight.\n","title":"🚂 The Magic Number: 13","type":"posts"},{"content":"The Domain Name System.\nContents # Contents What is DNS The History of DNS The Hosts File A Need for DNS Current Day DNS Caching Conclusion and Further Reading What is DNS # You type in wikipedia.org into your browser. What happens next?\nFirst, your browser needs to work out which IP address corresponds to the domain name.\nThis is DNS.\nYou understand a hostname like wikipedia.org, but your device only understands IP addresses.\nDNS created a mapping between hostnames and IP addresses.\nThe History of DNS # The Hosts File # On your computer, you might have seen your /etc/hosts file.\nThis contains a mapping between a hostname and an ip addresses.\nMy /etc/hosts looks like this:\n\u0026gt; cat /etc/hosts ## # Host Database # # localhost is used to configure the loopback interface # when the system is booting. Do not change this entry. ## 127.0.0.1 localhost 255.255.255.255 broadcasthost ::1 localhost # Added by Docker Desktop # To allow the same kube context to work on the host and the container: 127.0.0.1 kubernetes.docker.internal # End of section What you might not know, is that the existence of this file goes back to the history of DNS.\nA Need for DNS # In the Development of the Domain Name System1, we know that way back in 1983, the way that users of computers would get the IP address of another computer, was by looking in the HOSTS.txt file.\nThis text file contained all computers on the internet. When a new device needed to be added to the internet, the IP address and the hostname would be added to the HOSTS.txt file, and the new version of the file would be distributed to all consumers.\nThis works well for a small number of devices, but not even the creators of DNS could have seen how large the internet would become.\nCurrent Day DNS # When you make a DNS request, you provide the hostname, and you would like to receive an IP address.\nYour device creates a DNS request according to the specs, described in RFC 1034 and RFC 1035.\nNext, your request is sent to a DNS server. This is typically your ISP, or you can also manually set this to something like 8.8.8.8 which is a service provided by Google.\nImage: K\u0026amp;R2\nSo, a DNS server has your request and wants to find the IP.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s say I want to find the IP address of my site, www.jfricker.com.\nTo do this, it needs to ask some questions.\nFirst, we ask the root servers, a question.\nRun dig to find the root servers.\n❯ dig ; \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; DiG 9.10.6 \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; -\u0026gt;\u0026gt;HEADER\u0026lt;\u0026lt;- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 12373 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 13, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 1232 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;. IN NS ;; ANSWER SECTION: . 37713 IN NS g.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS e.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS i.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS k.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS f.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS d.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS m.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS j.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS c.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS l.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS a.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS b.root-servers.net. . 37713 IN NS h.root-servers.net. ;; Query time: 14 msec ;; SERVER: 192.168.0.1#53(192.168.0.1) ;; WHEN: Sat Sep 23 12:23:35 AEST 2023 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 239 There are only 13 root DNS servers worldwide, however, these are replicated across the world. So even though there aren\u0026rsquo;t many servers, we can still get a good response time.\nRoot servers contain the IP address of the top-level domain servers. These are the servers for .com, .org and more. The IP addresses of all these servers are hardcoded. So if you wanted to add a new TLD, you would need to add a new IP address entry into a root server.\nImage: K\u0026amp;R2\nThe NS records above\nNext, we want to find .com, from a root server. So we can try this command\n❯ dig @a.root-servers.net. com. NS ; \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; DiG 9.10.6 \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; @a.root-servers.net. com. NS ; (1 server found) ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; -\u0026gt;\u0026gt;HEADER\u0026lt;\u0026lt;- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 8679 ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 13, ADDITIONAL: 27 ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 4096 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;com. IN NS ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: com. 172800 IN NS e.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS b.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS j.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS m.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS i.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS f.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS a.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS g.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS h.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS l.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS k.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS c.gtld-servers.net. com. 172800 IN NS d.gtld-servers.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: e.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.12.94.30 e.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:502:1ca1::30 b.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.33.14.30 b.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:503:231d::2:30 j.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.48.79.30 j.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:502:7094::30 m.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.55.83.30 m.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:501:b1f9::30 i.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.43.172.30 i.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:503:39c1::30 f.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.35.51.30 f.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:503:d414::30 a.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.5.6.30 a.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:503:a83e::2:30 g.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.42.93.30 g.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:503:eea3::30 h.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.54.112.30 h.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:502:8cc::30 l.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.41.162.30 l.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:500:d937::30 k.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.52.178.30 k.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:503:d2d::30 c.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.26.92.30 c.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:503:83eb::30 d.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.31.80.30 d.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN AAAA 2001:500:856e::30 ;; Query time: 119 msec ;; SERVER: 198.41.0.4#53(198.41.0.4) ;; WHEN: Sat Sep 23 12:25:41 AEST 2023 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 828 Here, we are querying for the NS records. The NS records in this case are those DNS servers that are authoritative for that domain.\nNote here that ANSWER: 0, we didn\u0026rsquo;t get an actual answer because we are asking who is responsible for the .com. top-level domain. .com. has no IP address, you can\u0026rsquo;t browse to this website.\nThe .com. servers know all of the hostnames in .com. They should know something about jfricker.com.\nTo continue our search, we can query one of these and ask about jfricker.com.\n❯ dig @a.gtld-servers.net. jfricker.com ; \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; DiG 9.10.6 \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; @a.gtld-servers.net. jfricker.com ; (1 server found) ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; -\u0026gt;\u0026gt;HEADER\u0026lt;\u0026lt;- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 40521 ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 13 ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 4096 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;jfricker.com. IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: jfricker.com. 172800 IN NS karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. jfricker.com. 172800 IN NS maciej.ns.cloudflare.com. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN A 108.162.194.194 karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN A 162.159.38.194 karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN A 172.64.34.194 karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN AAAA 2606:4700:50::a29f:26c2 karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN AAAA 2803:f800:50::6ca2:c2c2 karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN AAAA 2a06:98c1:50::ac40:22c2 maciej.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN A 108.162.195.42 maciej.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN A 162.159.44.42 maciej.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN A 172.64.35.42 maciej.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN AAAA 2606:4700:58::a29f:2c2a maciej.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN AAAA 2803:f800:50::6ca2:c32a maciej.ns.cloudflare.com. 172800 IN AAAA 2a06:98c1:50::ac40:232a ;; Query time: 25 msec ;; SERVER: 192.5.6.30#53(192.5.6.30) ;; WHEN: Sat Sep 23 12:35:04 AEST 2023 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 361 Here we go! Now we\u0026rsquo;ve got some information about jfricker.com. The site is hosted by cloudflare, and now we\u0026rsquo;ve got some servers to help us find the IP address.\nNext, let\u0026rsquo;s query one of these and get our site IP.\n❯ dig @karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. www.jfricker.com ; \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; DiG 9.10.6 \u0026lt;\u0026lt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; @karsyn.ns.cloudflare.com. www.jfricker.com ; (3 servers found) ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; -\u0026gt;\u0026gt;HEADER\u0026lt;\u0026lt;- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 64879 ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 1232 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;www.jfricker.com. IN A ;; ANSWER SECTION: www.jfricker.com. 300 IN A 172.67.152.241 www.jfricker.com. 300 IN A 104.21.56.156 ;; Query time: 15 msec ;; SERVER: 108.162.194.194#53(108.162.194.194) ;; WHEN: Sat Sep 23 12:36:22 AEST 2023 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 77 There we go! We have two answers. One is 172.67.152.241, and if you navigate to that page, you will land at www.jfricker.com.\nFinally, this IP is returned to your ISP and you can start to create your HTTP request for the site content.\nCaching # If we had to query the 13 root servers for every DNS request, things would get pretty crazy.\nFortunately, each server has caches for requests.\nFor example, the root servers cache requests the TLD\u0026rsquo;s, so it will very rarely actually need to go into the database and grab a record.\nSimilarly, caching will occur at the DNS server completing the request. So even going to the other servers to fetch records will be rare.\nMappings between hosts and address can change though, so each record in the cache also has a TTL. To ensure that the cache can also be refreshed when the underlying records change.\nConclusion and Further Reading # DNS is a very interesting piece of software. It\u0026rsquo;s amazing that something designed so long ago is functioning so well today.\nFurther Resources\nMockapetris Paper Cloudflare on DNS Development of the Domain Name System: https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/classes/wi01/cse222/papers/mockapetris-dns-sigcomm88.pdf\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nComputer Networking: A Top Down Approach, Kurose and Ross (2021)\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"22 September 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/computer_networks/dns/","section":"Others","summary":"The Domain Name System.\nContents # Contents What is DNS The History of DNS The Hosts File A Need for DNS Current Day DNS Caching Conclusion and Further Reading What is DNS # You type in wikipedia.org into your browser. What happens next?\n","title":"DNS","type":"other"},{"content":"Tweaking the newsletter this week. I’m hoping to keep going until I find a structure that works and feels good to me.\nAs always, if you have any feedback, let me know!\nNow, close your social media and let’s get to it.\nThings I liked this week # Smart People Doing Smart Things # Podcast featuring the founders of WarpStream, both worked at Datadog on Husky which is Datadog’s event store. These guys do some really difficult engineering and it’s interesting to hear how they came into these unique roles without a CS degree.\nDopamine Detox! # I’ve noticed that I’ve been in a rut recently, and feeling like I’m not contributing to my best ability. This video was a nice reminder of how and why we should get rid of dopamine-stimulating products, and get back to the basics.\nThere’s something very attractive about not using any social media and just detaching, but it is quite difficult to do. This week, I’m planning to delete all social media from my phone and hope that I regain some natural zen.\nEngineering Career Growth # Engineer’s guide to career growth: Advice from my time at Stripe and Facebook (firstround.com)\nInteresting article on career growth. A key takeaway was that your career can go much faster when the company you are in is also growing. As the author mentions, being early at FB or Stripe would set you up for growth simply because the company is growing so rapidly.\nThis idea is consistent with the career advice that suggests young people join Series B stage startups, as they are gearing up for these kinds of growth trajectories. Just make sure you pick the right one 😉\nThings I Learned About this Week # Exception Control Flow # We went through this idea in our CSI class this week. It’s an interesting concept and one that is fundamental to how your computer works.\nSimilar to the above, this article is recommended: What happens when you switch on a computer?\nKedro # Spent a little while learning about Kedro as a data pipeline tool. It has some basic primitives but seems to be capable of creating some cool pipelines. I’d like to dive into this further at some stage!\nLife Updates # The first module of Bradfield CSI is complete! Computer Networking will start later in September\nI’ve recently returned to my HouseAndRent repository where I’m scraping all the listings on flatmates.com.au. I’ve built a barebones model and frontend for it. The eventual goal at this stage is to turn it into an MLOps project\nThat’s all for this week! I’ll see you again next time\n","date":"9 September 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/end-your-dopamine-addiction/","section":"Writing","summary":"Tweaking the newsletter this week. I’m hoping to keep going until I find a structure that works and feels good to me.\nAs always, if you have any feedback, let me know!\nNow, close your social media and let’s get to it.\n","title":"End Your Dopamine Addiction!","type":"posts"},{"content":"Hey there, and welcome to James’ Notes.\nModule One: ‘Introduction to Computer Systems’ of the Computer Science Intensive is nearly complete.\n(Read all posts here)\nNew posts this week:\nPerformance\nLoop Unrolling\nMultiple Accumulators\nSIMD\nCaching\nLocality\nSRAM/DRAM\nInstruction and Data Cache\nSimulating the Cache\nPython Example\nOther things I’ve liked this week:\nNorfolk police pull over man with bull riding shotgun\nAustralian Fast Bowler - Tom Gleeson (video)\nHow I became a machine learning practitioner - Greg Brockman\n","date":"3 September 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/3-september-2023/","section":"Writing","summary":"Hey there, and welcome to James’ Notes.\nModule One: ‘Introduction to Computer Systems’ of the Computer Science Intensive is nearly complete.\n(Read all posts here)\nNew posts this week:\nPerformance\nLoop Unrolling\nMultiple Accumulators\nSIMD\nCaching\nLocality\nSRAM/DRAM\n","title":"3 September, 2023","type":"posts"},{"content":" Contents # What is a Cache Spatial and Time Locality Amdahl’s Law SRAM and DRAM How does the Cache Work? Cache Hits Cache Misses: Writing to the Cache Caching Reads and Writes How Does Data Move Between Caches Cache Access Times Data and Instruction Caches Simulating the Cache A Practical Example Resources What is a cache, and why do we have them?\nWhat is a Cache # Caching is a mechanism designed - What is a Cache\nBy introducing a cache, we are able to increase our program\u0026rsquo;s performance.\nInstead of always going to the main memory to fetch our data, we may be able to grab it from the L1 cache instead, which is a much faster operation.\nSpatial and Time Locality # The principle of locality\nPrograms tend to reuse data and instructions they have used recently1\nSpatial locality is the idea that items who\u0026rsquo;s addresses are near each other will be accessed close in time.\nTime locality is that those objects accessed recently will be more likely to be accessed again in the near future.\nThese principles guide us when creating and using caches.\nAmdahl’s Law # Amdahl’s law states that the performance improvement to be gained from using some faster mode of execution is limited by the fraction of the time the faster mode can be used.1\nIf I can speed up part of my program by 100%, but it only makes up 10% of my total running time, then I have only saved 5% of the total running time of my program.\nIf I increase parts of my program performance, the gain is limited to the portion of time my program spends running that code.\nIn fact, in the above example, eliminating any time in the small program would still only reduce the total running time by 10%.\nSRAM and DRAM # Static RAM (SRAM) is faster and more expensive and is used for cache memories. Dynamic RAM (DRAM) is slower and less expensive and is used for the main memory and graphics frame buffers2.\nHow does the Cache Work? # When a program needs data from cache level k+1, it looks for the data in cache level k.2\nIf we find the data in that cache, it\u0026rsquo;s called a cache hit, otherwise, it\u0026rsquo;s a called a cache miss.\nWhen a cache miss occurs, the data must be fetched from a lower level and written into the cache.\nCache Hits # How do we know if we found the data in the cache?\nThe cache doesn\u0026rsquo;t just contain the data. It also contains a Tag and a Valid bit3.\nThe Tag block contains information about what is contained in the cache block. We can search the cache for the relevant information, and if it is not there, we\nCache Misses: Writing to the Cache # When we have a cache miss we must do two things\nFetch the data place the data in the cache When we place new data in the cache, more data is moved than is required. Due to spatial locality, we assume that nearby data will also be needed in the near future. The size of the data moved is known as a cache line or a block. This may overwrite an existing line in the cache.\nThe transfer between cache levels is fixed between adjacent cache levels, and this gets larger the further we are from the CPU2. It makes sense to transfer more blocks into the cache the further down we are, to make up for the time taken to access this memory.\nCaching Reads and Writes # Caching a READ operation is fairly intuitive. The state of the memory and the state of the cache will be the same.\nWhat about caching WRITE operations? If we write to the cache, how is the memory updated?\nThere are two main strategies for managing WRITE operations in the cache, write-through and write-back 1.\nA write-through cache writes both to the cache and to main memory. The addition of writing to main memory is known as writing through the cache.\nA write-back cache only writes to the cache. When the cache memory is next overwritten, the cache will be copied back to main memory.\nBoth caching strategies use a write buffer, to allow processing to continue, even if the write to main memory has not been completed1.\nHow Does Data Move Between Caches # One of the questions I had was how data moves between caches. I know that when I write to some data not in the cache, I will write the new cache line to the L1 cache. I wanted to know how data ends up in the L2/L3 etc cache levels.\nThere are two kinds of caches, inclusive and exclusive caching.\nInclusive caching means that L1 contains everything in L2, which contains everything in L3 etc.\nExclusive means that data is only kept in the cache in one position.\nFor an inclusive cache, if data is found in L3, it will be written to L2, and then to L1. The writes to the smaller, higher level caches, will cause state data to be evicted.\nCache Access Times # A popular visualisation of cache fetch times is here.\nPer this diagram, an L1 cache hit will take about 1ns to return, while a main memory reference will take 100ns.\nOur program can run much faster by using the cache well!\nData and Instruction Caches # There are separate caches for Data and Instructions (Stack Overflow). Read this Intel post for some interersting specs.\nAnother stack exchange post on this topic.\nThe Data cache holds the data to be read or executed.\nThe instruction cache holds instructions to execute.\nThe data cache changes much more frequently than the instruction cache.\nSimulating the Cache # So how can I actually tell my usage of the cache when running my program?\nWe can use the valgrind option cachegrind for this. It can simulate cache usage, so we can get an idea of how well our program is utilising the cache.\nFor example, compile your c binary with some thing like clang hell_world.c and then use valgrind to simulate the cache.\nvalgrind --tool=cachegrind --cache-sim=yes ./a.out Then, view this with cg_annotate\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll be able to see a cache simulation, and see how well your cache levels are being utilised.\nA Practical Example # Python List Implementation:\ntypedef struct { PyObject_VAR_HEAD PyObject **ob_item; Py_ssize_t allocated; } PyListObject; So a Python List is implemented as a list of pointers to PyObjects. This means, that when we iterate through a python list, we need to get the pointer to the object, and then get the object. Since the PyObject we want could be anywhere in memory and not necessarirly sequential, we will have a low probability of cache hits.\nInstead, to have a more cache friendly Python List, we should use the array type. The Array type is better for our cache, since the elements in the array will be located in contiguous blocks in memory. When we fetch the first element, many of the subsequent elements will be loaded into the cache, which will increase our performance.\nRead more about the Python List implementation here.\nResources # https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/why-do-cpus-have-multiple-cache-levels/\nComputer Architecture, A Quantitative Approach, Patterson and Hennessy, 2011, Chapter 2\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nComputer Systems: A Programmers Perspective - Chapter 6\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nComputer Organisation and Design, Patterson and Hennessy, 2013, Chapter 5\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"29 August 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/intro_to_computer_systems/cache/","section":"Others","summary":"Contents # What is a Cache Spatial and Time Locality Amdahl’s Law SRAM and DRAM How does the Cache Work? Cache Hits Cache Misses: Writing to the Cache Caching Reads and Writes How Does Data Move Between Caches Cache Access Times Data and Instruction Caches Simulating the Cache A Practical Example Resources What is a cache, and why do we have them?\n","title":"Caching","type":"other"},{"content":"Programming can be hard. Programming in assembly is very hard.\nA compiler will take your code and output the assembly equivalent. It\u0026rsquo;s usually very good assembly, which is one reason we don\u0026rsquo;t usually write code using assembly.\nBelow is a quick guide to assembly, with some notes and tips that I picked up along the way.\nHello World # Hello World! in assembly.\nglobal _start section .text _start: mov rax, 1 ; system call for write mov rdi, 1 ; file handle 1 is stdout mov rsi, message ; address of string to output mov rdx, 13 ; number of bytes syscall ; invoke operating system to do the write mov rax, 60 ; system call for exit xor rdi, rdi ; exit code 0 syscall ; invoke operating system to exit section .data message: db \u0026#34;Hello, World\u0026#34;, 10 ; note the newline at the end That\u0026rsquo;s right, probably the most crazy hello world you\u0026rsquo;ve ever seen.\nThe Sum From 1 to N # Now, here is something a little more complex. The sum from 1 to n.\nsection .text global sum_to_n sum_to_n: xor eax, eax .loop: add eax, edi sub edi, 1 jg .loop ret Here\u0026rsquo;s how this works\ninput value n is provided via the %rdi or %edi registers the return value is expected in the %rax or %eax registers jg jumps to argument if %edi equals zero ","date":"19 August 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/intro_to_computer_systems/assembly/","section":"Others","summary":"Programming can be hard. Programming in assembly is very hard.\nA compiler will take your code and output the assembly equivalent. It’s usually very good assembly, which is one reason we don’t usually write code using assembly.\n","title":"Assembly","type":"other"},{"content":"So you\u0026rsquo;ve heard of UTF-8, but what exactly is it?\nUTF stands for Unicode Transformation Format. UTF-8 is one way to represent Unicode characters.\nSetup # Ever wondered how emojis are represented in your computer?\nIf my computer is only 1\u0026rsquo;s and 0\u0026rsquo;s, how is 🤯 this represented?\nThis is the purpose of UTF.\nPreviously, computers only used ASCII characters. This was a limited set of characters, including some basic characters and the English alphabet.\nIf someone wanted to send you a message in Japanese or send emojis, this was simply not possible!\nEnter Unicode.\nUnicode gives us a unique code for each emoji, letter and anything else you need to write on your computer.\nHow it works? # UTF-8 encodes each Unicode character into between 1 and 4 bytes.\nFor example, the 🤯 from earlier\ninput_str = \u0026#34;🤯\u0026#34; utf8_encoded = input_str.encode(\u0026#39;utf-8\u0026#39;) utf8_bytes = [f\u0026#34;{byte:08b}\u0026#34; for byte in utf8_encoded] print(utf8_bytes) # [\u0026#39;11110000\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;10011111\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;10100100\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;10101111\u0026#39;] The first part of the Unicode sequence indicates the size of the incoming list. The subsequent parts starting with 10 indicate that they are subsequent bytes.\n11110 from the first byte indicates that the byte stream is of length 4. If the byte stream was length one, the first byte would start with 0.\nTo calculate what the actual Unicode value is, we strip these out, and also the 10 from the subsequent bytes. Append these together, and we will get the Unicode value.\nSo the value is:\n000 + 011111 + 100100 + 101111 = 000011111100100101111 = 129327 (base 10) This (U+1F92F), corresponds to the exploding head emoji 🤯.\nOther UTF-X # There are other ways to encode Unicode characters like UTF-16 and UTF-32.\nHere is the same emoji as earlier, but in UTF-16.\ninput_str = \u0026#34;🤯\u0026#34; utf16_encoded = input_str.encode(\u0026#39;utf-16\u0026#39;) utf16_bytes = [f\u0026#34;{byte:08b}\u0026#34; for byte in utf16_encoded] print(utf16_bytes) # [\u0026#39;11111111\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;11111110\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;111110\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;11011000\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;101111\u0026#39;, \u0026#39;11011101\u0026#39;] This one is a bit different.\nWhile UTF-8 sends each byte separately, UTF-16 sends two bytes at a time. This explains UTF-8 and UTF-16 (8 bits and 16 bits).\nThe first two bytes of the utf-16 decoded string indicate the endian-ness of the subsequent utf-8 characters.\n11111111 11111110 (or 0xFFFE in hexadecimal) indicates little-endian 11111110 11111111 (or 0xFEFF in hexadecimal) indicates big-endian Converting UTF-16 is a bit harder, so we won\u0026rsquo;t go into the details here.\nInterestingly, UTF-16 is the default for Javascript.\nConclusion # The Unicode and UTF pieces of code are very interesting. It\u0026rsquo;s cool to understand how my characters are actually being represented on the machine.\n","date":"12 August 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/intro_to_computer_systems/utf/","section":"Others","summary":"So you’ve heard of UTF-8, but what exactly is it?\nUTF stands for Unicode Transformation Format. UTF-8 is one way to represent Unicode characters.\nSetup # Ever wondered how emojis are represented in your computer?\n","title":"Unicode Transformation Format (UTF-8)","type":"other"},{"content":"Today, I learnt about floats. I learnt about what they are, how they work, and why you\u0026rsquo;d use them.\n#Python factlet: Signed zeros are weird.\n\u0026gt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; x = -0.0\n\u0026gt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; x + x\n-0.0\n\u0026gt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; x - (-x)\n-0.0\n\u0026gt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; math.sqrt(x)\n-0.0\n\u0026gt;\u0026gt;\u0026gt; pow(x, 0.5)\n0.0\nInterestingly, all of this is necessary to comply with floating point standards.\n\u0026mdash; Raymond Hettinger (@raymondh) August 11, 2023 What is a floating point? # Most folks programming are familiar with floats. They are a type of number. Someone who doesn\u0026rsquo;t know much about floats might say something like\nI use int\u0026rsquo;s when I need a whole number, and a float when I need a decimal!\nThis is mostly true, and definitely, you will need to use floats to represent decimals.\nToday, we will go a layer deeper.\nWhat actually is a float?\nMotivation for Floats # I have a 32 bit integer. That means I have 32 1\u0026rsquo;s or 0\u0026rsquo;s.\nThe largest number I can represent here is $$ 2^{32} = 4,294,967,296 $$ Say I even go bigger, and I want a huge number, with 64 bits. $$ 2^{64} = 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 \\approx 1.8\\times 10^{19} $$ This is getting large, we are up to a quintillion. Large as it may seem, we might need even larger numbers, and our space use is starting to become a problem.\nWhat if we could represent even bigger numbers using less bits?\nThis is where floats come in.\nThe largest 32-bit float can represent is \\(3.8\\times 10^{38}\\). That\u0026rsquo;s twice the orders of magnitude as the \\(2^{64}\\) number, with half the bits!\nClearly, there is some benefit to the computer storing floats in this way.\nSo, how does this actually work?\nFloating Details # Floats were first described in IEEE 745 and consist of three parts\nsign exponent fraction (otherwise known as the \u0026ldquo;mantissa\u0026rdquo;) Each of these combines together to produce a floating point number.\nSee the below diagram, from Wikipedia.\nEach of these parts has an important role to play in describing the floating point number.\nThe float described in the diagram is a single-precision floating-point. That is with fields s=1, exp=8 and frac=23.\nIn a double-precision float, we would have s=1, exp=11 and frac=52 (64 bit representation).\nFloat Calculations # Float\u0026rsquo;s aren\u0026rsquo;t just bits, they do make base 10 numbers.\nTo convert a float to base 10, we can use the following formula.\nHere\u0026rsquo;s the formula to convert the bit representation to a floating-point number: $$ (−1) \\times sign \\times (1+fraction) \\times 2 ^{(exponent−127)} $$ Where:\nSign is the sign bit. Fraction is the value represented by the mantissa in base-2. Exponent is the value represented by the exponent bits in base-2 minus the bias (127 for single precision). This python code shows the conversion.\ndef bits_to_float(bit_string): # Make sure the string is 32 bits long assert len(bit_string) == 32 # Extract sign, exponent, and fraction bits sign_bit = int(bit_string[0], 2) exponent_bits = int(bit_string[1:9], 2) fraction_bits = bit_string[9:] # Compute the sign, -1 if sign_bit is 1, otherwise 1 sign = -1 if sign_bit == 1 else 1 # Compute the exponent exponent = exponent_bits - 127 # Compute the fraction fraction = 1.0 # start with the implicit leading bit for i, bit in enumerate(fraction_bits): if bit == \u0026#39;1\u0026#39;: fraction += 2 ** (-i-1) # Compute the float value float_val = sign * fraction * (2 ** exponent) return float_val # Example usage: bit_representation = \u0026#34;01000000101000111101011100001010\u0026#34; print(bits_to_float(bit_representation)) The exponent allows us to get very large numbers, while the mantissa also gets us some precision.\nWhy the -127? # We can get negative numbers with the sign bit, what benefit could there be to having the -127 bias in the exponent?\nAccording to CS:APP[^2], we do need this bias for a few reasons.\nWhen the exponent is all zero\u0026rsquo;s or all ones, it is considered to be in \u0026lsquo;denormalised\u0026rsquo; form. All zero\u0026rsquo;s indicates the number 0, and all ones indicates the NaN or infinity.\nNormalised numbers always have the implicit leading bit for the mantissa, so it is not possible to represent the number 0.\nAnother benefit of the bias is that it allows even greater granularity of numbers closer to zero, but does sacrifice some more range.\nWhy Not Floats # The below image is from CS:APP[^2].\n![image-20230812093157141](/Users/jamesfricker/Library/Application Support/typora-user-images/image-20230812093157141.png)\nFloats get less precise, the further they are from 0.\nIn fact, some numbers simply cannot be represented by a floating point.\nConsider the following.\nf = 0.1 + 0.2 print(f) What does this print? You might guess 0.3, and you would be wrong.\nprint(f) # 0.30000000000000004 Numbers like 0.1 and many others, cannot be exactly represented by a float.\nFloats are great for having larger range using the same number of bits, but they sacrifice precision.\nIf you need precision for decimals, consider using a Decimal type in your language, or using another method like an object to store two integers for the number and the location of the decimal point.\nConclusion # Floats are a great piece of technology. Knowing when is the right time to use them, is key to getting the most out of them.\nSources # ","date":"10 August 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/intro_to_computer_systems/floats/","section":"Others","summary":"Today, I learnt about floats. I learnt about what they are, how they work, and why you’d use them.\n#Python factlet: Signed zeros are weird.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e x = -0.0\n\u003e\u003e\u003e x + x\n-0.0\n\u003e\u003e\u003e x - (-x)\n-0.0\n\u003e\u003e\u003e math.sqrt(x)\n-0.0\n\u003e\u003e\u003e pow(x, 0.5)\n0.0\nInterestingly, all of this is necessary to comply with floating point standards.\n","title":"Floating Point Numbers","type":"other"},{"content":" Contents # Performance Loop Unrolling Multiple Accumulators An Example SIMD Performance # How do we increase a program\u0026rsquo;s performance?\nWe would like to get the same amount of work done, in less time.\nThere are a few techniques that we can use to do this. We will discuss some here.\nLoop Unrolling # Loop unrolling refers to increasing the number of instructions completed per loop.\nFor example, take a regular for-loop expression.\nfor (int i = 0; i \u0026lt; 4; i++) { A[i] = B[i] + C[i]; } Now, consider using the loop unrolling technique.\nfor (int i = 0; i \u0026lt; 4; i+=2) { A[i] = B[i] + C[i]; A[i+1] = B[i+1] + C[i+1]; } Consider the unrolled for loop. For each loop we need to add some things, increment i, do a comparison and keep going.\nWhen the loop is \u0026lsquo;rolled\u0026rsquo; the increment of i and the comparison in the for loop occur less often since we are doing more work in each loop. This leads to less overhead, and we are able to complete the instructions more quickly.\nThis is a very simple example though, and unrolling may not always have a positive effect.\nThere is a short article by CS Professor Daniel Lemire on this topic here.\nAn interesting read is also this GitHub issue \u0026ldquo;cmd/compile: add unrolling stage for automatic loop unrolling #51302\u0026rdquo; for golang, where folks are discussing adding loop unrolling into Golang.\nMultiple Accumulators # Consider another simple example.\nsum = 0; for (int i = 0; i \u0026lt; N; i++) { sum += A[i]; } To speed this up, we can use multiple accumulators.\nsum1 = sum2 = 0; for (int i = 0; i \u0026lt; N; i+=2) { sum1 += A[i]; sum2 += A[i+1]; } sum = sum1 + sum2; Each time we do a loop, there is some overhead. We need to increment i, check the if case etc. If we can do more operations per loop, then we can speed up our program. Similar to loop unrolling where we do less loops by unrolling the loop, now we try to do more operations per loop.\nAn Example # When could we actually use multiple accumulators?\nConsider the following example, where we calculate the average age of users by unpacking a uint64 with 8 uint8 integers.\n// packing the uint64 packedAges := make([]uint64, (len(userLines)+7)/8) for i, line := range userLines { age, _ := strconv.Atoi(line[2]) // do the packing packedAges[i/8] |= uint64(age) \u0026lt;\u0026lt; ((i % 8) * 8) } And then unpacking using multiple accumulators.\ntype UserData struct { numAges int packedAges []uint64 payments []uint32 } func AverageAge(users UserData) float64 { var sum0, sum1, sum2, sum3, sum4, sum5, sum6, sum7 uint32 for _, packed := range users.packedAges { sum0 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 0) \u0026amp; 0xFF) sum1 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 8) \u0026amp; 0xFF) sum2 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 16) \u0026amp; 0xFF) sum3 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 24) \u0026amp; 0xFF) sum4 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 32) \u0026amp; 0xFF) sum5 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 40) \u0026amp; 0xFF) sum6 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 48) \u0026amp; 0xFF) sum7 += uint32((packed \u0026gt;\u0026gt; 56) \u0026amp; 0xFF) } return float64(sum0+sum1+sum2+sum3+sum4+sum5+sum6+sum7) / float64(users.numAges) } Clearly the code is not very nice to read, but it does have some performance benefits.\nUnderstanding your data is also key here. Using a uint8 is possible because we know that the maximum size of our data will fit in this range.\nSIMD # One of the fastest ways to get speedup for your program is to use what is called \u0026ldquo;SIMD\u0026rdquo; (Single Instruction, Multiple Data). These instructions allow us to conduct operations on multiple data with just a single instruction. If you\u0026rsquo;ve heard of things like \u0026lsquo;vectorisation\u0026rsquo; this concept is quite similar.\nAn interesting article here on the stack overflow blog, about multiple accumulators and SIMD (Single Input, Multiple Data) instructions.\nOpenBLAS is C library that utilises these SIMD instructions. Pandas/Numpy and other similar libraries use this to enable significant performance increases.\n","date":"10 August 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/intro_to_computer_systems/performance/","section":"Others","summary":"Contents # Performance Loop Unrolling Multiple Accumulators An Example SIMD Performance # How do we increase a program’s performance?\n","title":"Performance","type":"other"},{"content":"In order to run code, we sometimes need to compile it. Some are compiled into machine code (C, Go), others are compiled into a bytecode format (Java, Python).\nToday, we look into some of these and how code from these languages actually runs on your CPU.\nPython Bytecode # When you run Python code, it is first compiled into bytecode, and then run directly on the CPU by the interpreter.\nThese operations are done by whichever Python installation you have, for example\nCPython: the standard (coded in C) Jython: for scripting Java apps (Java VM) IronPython: for scripting C#/.Net apps (.Net VM) PyPy: CPython for speed (JIT) Interestingly, Python code can also be compiled directly into machine code using Cython.\nJava? # People would describe Java as a compiled language because you need to explicitly compile it before running it. However, it does also have a virtual machine.\nWhy Virtual Machines # Virtual machines are beneficial because we do not need to worry about compiling code to run in a specific environment.\nIf I compile Java code, I can run my Java anywhere there is a JVM. This is the same with Python.\nIn C, I need to compile my code to run on specific architectures. Since the systems call available on each architecture may vary, running compiled C code on one machine might not run on another.\nForeign Function Interface # Another question I had was this. How can we run other languages code, eg Rust, in Python? This seemed quite common, but how does this actually work?\nI found a great blog post on this here.\nEssentially, to glue these languages together, there is this thing called FFI, the foreign function interface.\nIt allows Python to run C functions, and for Rust to export as C functions.\n","date":"10 August 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/bradfieldcsi/intro_to_computer_systems/python_vm/","section":"Others","summary":"In order to run code, we sometimes need to compile it. Some are compiled into machine code (C, Go), others are compiled into a bytecode format (Java, Python).\nToday, we look into some of these and how code from these languages actually runs on your CPU.\n","title":"Virtual Machines and Interpreted Language","type":"other"},{"content":"This year, I\u0026rsquo;m taking the Bradfield CSI program.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s an intensive, and designed to teach you everything you\u0026rsquo;ll need to know about the fundamentals of computers.\nHere, I\u0026rsquo;ll document my progress, write some short posts and try to teach some things.\nI make no promises at this stage, but hopefully this will help me, and you, to learn.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve grouped the content up into the relevant modules, to keep some ordering.\nI hope you enjoy!\nIntroduction to Computer Systems # Floating Point Numbers Unicode Transformation Format (UTF-8) Virtual Machines and Interpreted Language Performance Basics Assembly Examples Caching Computer Networks # Intro to DNS Systems Programming and Compilers # Operating Systems # Databases # ","date":"7 August 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/bradfieldcsi/","section":"Writing","summary":"This year, I’m taking the Bradfield CSI program.\nIt’s an intensive, and designed to teach you everything you’ll need to know about the fundamentals of computers.\nHere, I’ll document my progress, write some short posts and try to teach some things.\n","title":"Bradfield: Computer Science Intensive","type":"posts"},{"content":"So today, I passed the Google PCA exam. In this post, I\u0026rsquo;ll share my study approach and how I found the exam.\nYou can see my certificate for the exam here.\nTable of Contents # My Background Exam Structure Study Materials A Cloud Guru (ACG) Dan Sullivan Google Cloud Architect Learning Path WhizLabs ExamTopics Practice Exams During the Exam Lessons for Next Time Conclusion My Background # I finished university with a Maths degree and a Finance degree. I\u0026rsquo;ve been working as an engineer for over two years, one year using GCP.\nI started studying for the PCA exam at the start of 2023 and probably spent about 5-10 hours a week for about 2 months to get the certificate.\nFor more context about my situation before starting to study for the exam:\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t know the difference between Spanner and BigQuery I didn\u0026rsquo;t have a good understanding of a VPC was I had no networking experience I had no idea what Kubernetes was After studying for and passing the exam, I know my skills have improved greatly.\nExam Structure # My exam consisted of 50 questions, with about 15 of those relevant to two different case studies. Google has an exam guide that lists all the things you\u0026rsquo;re expected to know for the exam.\nStudy Materials # When I was at university, I knew the best way to get a good mark on exams was to do as many practice questions as possible. That was my approach with this exam too. I made sure to do as many practice questions as possible. By the time I sat the exam, I had done 500+ practice questions. I think that this approach was great in helping me to prepare for the exam.\nI also wanted to make sure I was understanding and remembering the content. I knew that spaced repetition would be the best way to commit learnings to memory. To do this, I took notes in a question format and put the questions into Obsidian and synced the questions to Anki.\nMy workflow was like this:\nWatch ACG videos Write notes in Obsidian in question form sync questions to Anki cards using the Flashcards plugin periodically review cards Once I was though most of the content, I began taking practice exams. I listed all my practice exam attempts and scores in the table below.\nI found the best resource for learning to be the A Cloud Guru course, and the best place for practice questions to be ExamTopics.\nA Cloud Guru (ACG) # The ACG PCA course was the only course that I went through end-to-end. ACG is known for having great content on cloud subjects, and I found this course to be really helpful in understanding the different services on Google Cloud and how they work.\nI made sure to revisit sections of this course when I needed to refresh certain concepts.\nThe course had 3x50 question practice exams, which were great and came with good explanations.\nDan Sullivan # I used two products from Dan Sullivan, the eBook and his Udemy course. I used the eBook as a guide when I wanted further clarification from the ACG course. There was heaps of detail here and it covered everything I needed to know for the exam.\nThe Udemy course could have been a double-up on existing material, but I got it just for the practice exam at the end. I didn\u0026rsquo;t watch any of the videos. The practice exam here contained questions I hadn\u0026rsquo;t seen before and was helpful for me in identifying gaps in my knowledge.\nGoogle Cloud Architect Learning Path # Google offers their own path for learning how to be a Cloud Architect. I did some of the courses, but skipped most of the content and only did the practice questions. I only used this resource very briefly and so can\u0026rsquo;t comment on its effectiveness.\nWhizLabs # As my exam date got closer, I wanted even more questions, so I purchased the WhizLabs course. This course came with 300 more practice questions. I did many of these and only 3/5 of the available practice exams. The questions in the practice exams were quite detailed and answers were backed up with links to documentation. There were some questions where it was hard to understand what the author meant, and some had grammatical errors. I found that these questions targeted slightly different material than the practice exams I had done previously, which was helpful. On the whole, these were done well and a useful addition to my study.\nExamTopics # I knew exam topics would be a good resource for my exam study. The PCA questions were the best guide for what questions would actually look like. The crowd-sourcing of solutions is great, although there were some questions where the community could not agree on the correct answer. There were nearly 300 practice questions here, and I found them to be the most relevant during the exam.\nPractice Exams # When I started the exam prep, ExamTopics had the most practice questions so I started with them. As I got closer to the exam, I reviewed some of the exams I had done previously.\nMy practice exam attempts are listed below. It\u0026rsquo;s nice to see the scores going up as I became more familiar with the material.\nGiven a large number of questions for ExamTopics, I split them up into 8 sets of T1 and 10 sets of T2. T1 was normal questions, and T2 were questions associated with a case study. Each T1 set had about 24 questions, and T2 only had approximately six each. I didn\u0026rsquo;t record when I did the T2 sets of questions.\nDuring the Exam # After doing the normal proctor setup tasks, my exam when really smoothly. Since I had done so many practice questions, I had a great understanding of how questions flowed and what parts of each question to pay attention to.\nLessons for Next Time # One thing is clear, sitting exams like this is quite detached from practical experience. I found studying for the exam to be really helpful in understanding the Google Cloud landscape, but nothing beats actually building using the tools.\nExams can be more focused on remembering rather than understanding. For this exam, I remember what a Daemon Set in K8\u0026rsquo;s does, but I have never created a Daemon set, so my knowledge is memorised rather than understood. This next level of understanding is hard to get from simply sitting the exam.\nPractice questions were definitely one of the best ways to study for the exam. If I study for more exams in the future, which is likely, I will take this approach again.\nConclusion # If you made it this far, thanks! I hope you enjoyed.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;d like to hear from me again, subscribe to my email list below.\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"21 March 2023","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/gcp-professional-cloud-architect/","section":"Writing","summary":"So today, I passed the Google PCA exam. In this post, I’ll share my study approach and how I found the exam.\nYou can see my certificate for the exam here.\nTable of Contents # My Background Exam Structure Study Materials A Cloud Guru (ACG) Dan Sullivan Google Cloud Architect Learning Path WhizLabs ExamTopics Practice Exams During the Exam Lessons for Next Time Conclusion My Background # I finished university with a Maths degree and a Finance degree. I’ve been working as an engineer for over two years, one year using GCP.\n","title":"Passing the Google Cloud Professional Cloud Architect Exam","type":"posts"},{"content":"It\u0026rsquo;s finally time.\nThe end of the year is a time to review the past and set a new vision for the future.\nBonnie Doon, 2022 2022 # This year was a fantastic year for me. After moving back to Melbourne from Adelaide for the second time in January and starting my third rotation at work, things started to pick up steam.\n10 Great things that Happened this Year # 52 Episodes of Graduate Theory Feature article on anz.com Adelaide Oval Roofclimb with my brothers Completing ANZ Tech Grad Program Corporate Members Speakers Lunch with Shayne Elliot (CEO, ANZ) Survived Covid twice Solo road trips to Bonnie Doon, Gisbourne and more Jack Johnson live World Cup night vs Tunisia at the pub Trips to Sunshine Coast, Great Ocean Road Near the 12 Apostles, Great Ocean Road in September 2022 Goal Review # Now that the year is done, how did I do? Here are some of the goals I set at the start of 2022.\nTop Goals for 2022\nGoal Status Roll off into ANZx at work ✅ Grow my relationship with T ✅ Read more books, a minimum of 40 this year ❌ Have 52 episodes of Graduate Theory ✅ Grow Graduate Theory audience. Have 1000 listens per episode ❌ Run a half marathon ❌ Continue on the board of SYTM ✅ Grow finances from xk to xk ✅ Review\nSo I ended up completing the grad program and continuing in my favourite role, which has been fantastic for my professional growth.\nI survived and thrived in a long-distance relationship for a year.\nI only read 16 books this year. In the past few years, I\u0026rsquo;ve read many, many books, and it\u0026rsquo;s something that I\u0026rsquo;d like to continue doing. This year, I found that sometimes I can lose interest in reading because the book isn\u0026rsquo;t very relevant to me at the time. I think reading to hit a number of books read is not a good reason to read, which is what I have found myself doing in the past and this year. Next year, I won\u0026rsquo;t set a book goal and read more for leisure or when the time is right.\nGraduate Theory was one of my biggest successes this year. I recorded 52 episodes with many inspirational and incredible people. I learnt much from conversations and growing the skills required to manage and grow the podcast. Creating a new episode every week for a year is an achievement that I am proud of. Although I didn\u0026rsquo;t hit my audience goal, I still made an impact, and I know there are people out there that found my episodes valuable.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t run the half-marathon this year, but it\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;d love to take more seriously next year. A few years ago, my fitness routine was all about getting maximum muscle. Now, I see much more of the importance of cardio and staying in great shape in all aspects.\nI continued on the board of my Toastmasters club and am enjoying my time with the club.\nAdelaide Oval Roofclimb with my brothers Lessons Learned From This Year # This year I learned:\nAccountability is extremely important. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t have gone as far as I did with Graduate Theory without the help of others. Interesting people exist. This year I\u0026rsquo;ve met loads of interesting people. In the past, it has been difficult to find groups of likeminded people. This year I\u0026rsquo;ve met many people with similar ambitions, which has made me feel more confident in going after my goals. I am capable. Similar to the above point, through EarlyWork and Next Chapter, I\u0026rsquo;ve met many interesting and accomplished people. After speaking with these people, I realise that they are similar to me, and the fantastic things they have done aren\u0026rsquo;t so out of reach. 2023 # This year has been great. I\u0026rsquo;ve grown and learnt so much. I\u0026rsquo;m excited about the year ahead.\nIn setting my goals for the next year, I think it\u0026rsquo;s important to remember that achieving or not achieving the goal is not that important. What is most important is that I am becoming someone that I want to be and someone that I am proud of.\nTop Goals for 2023\nBecome a Senior Software Engineer (or get pretty close) Run a half marathon Become President of SYTM Take More Photos Make more predictions Share More Speak at an event Grow finances from xk to xk This year, I plan to build on Graduate Theory, and start building my personal brand. I plan to start a newsletter, to share more of what is happening in my life, and perhaps a youtube channel, so that I can also improve my public speaking and presentation skills.\nOne day, I\u0026rsquo;d love to speak at events more, and to have my own company. This year will be a big step towards this, and I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to tackling the challenges that I will face along the way.\n","date":"24 December 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/2022-review/","section":"Writing","summary":"It’s finally time.\nThe end of the year is a time to review the past and set a new vision for the future.\nBonnie Doon, 2022 2022 # This year was a fantastic year for me. After moving back to Melbourne from Adelaide for the second time in January and starting my third rotation at work, things started to pick up steam.\n","title":"2022 Review - 2023 Resolutions","type":"posts"},{"content":"I released 52 episodes of my podcast, Graduate Theory. This is its story.\nThe pandemic started in early 2020.\nAs I spent days and days sitting inside, I had an idea.\nWhat if I started a podcast?\nI had started to get to know some interesting people through my local Toastmasters club; perhaps I could interview them.\nOn March 26, 2020, I wrote my first note about my podcast.\nIt would be called the \u0026ldquo;E4 Podcast\u0026rdquo;.\nThe E4 Podcast Logo E4 is the most common starting move in a game of chess. I thought this aligned nicely with the topic I wanted to pursue: early careers.\nYour early career is the first move you make in the game of life.\nBy creating the podcast, I wanted to know how these interesting people became so interesting.\nHow could I have a career that I could be proud of and not one that I was ashamed of?\nSubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit The First Message # Finally, I decided. This was it.\nIt was time to start.\nMy first reachout It was the 24th of April, 2020. I had finally worked up the guts to message my friend, Ryan, asking him if he\u0026rsquo;d like to be interviewed.\nLuckily, he said yes!\nIt was time to get started.\nThe Weight # I recorded the episode with Ryan, and then I waited\u0026hellip;\nand waited..\nand waited\u0026hellip;\nThe episode never came out. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t work up the guts to edit and release the episode, or even ask another person if they\u0026rsquo;d like to be interviewed.\nLooking back, the social anxiety I felt around sharing something of my own to the world was overwelming.\nNow, I can\u0026rsquo;t believe that these thoughts held me back. It seems so silly!\nThe Resurrection # The podcast idea didn\u0026rsquo;t go away. It continued to stew away in the back of my mind until August 2021.\nI was in Melbourne at the time, doing a covid quarantine with my girlfriend.\nIt was during this period that I decided, enough was enough.\nI had still been thinking about doing a podcast. Would I ever do it?\nThe time came when I realised it was now or never. Starting the podcast today was going to be no easier than starting it at any other time. If I didn\u0026rsquo;t start today, I may never do it.\nI asked myself what I would think of this situation if I was 80 years old. What would I say to myself?\nI realised that I would be filled with regret if I reached that age and hadn\u0026rsquo;t pursued this ambition I had held for some time.\nSo my mind was made up. It was time to start.\nMy first steps were to purchase a microphone and a better webcam. I also began to build my dream guest list.\nThe First Graduate Theory Logo The First Episode # The first three episodes came out on the 6th of November, 2021. One was with Joe Wehbe, and two with my friends from Toastmasters, Darren Fleming and Wendy Teasdale-Smith.\nHere is the first post I made about the podcast. I posted on the 8th of November, 2021.\nInitial LinkedIn Post It turned out that the social anxiety I felt was still there. I was super nervous to post about it, and pleasantly surprised to see many positive comments from friends.\nIt turns out that \u0026ldquo;haters\u0026rdquo; don\u0026rsquo;t seem to really exist, and much of the pressure I felt about putting something out into the world was coming from internal beliefs, not reality.\nPod Crew # One of the best things about the journey was the friends that I made along the way. In particular, I had a great time with what was dubbed \u0026ldquo;Pod Crew\u0026rdquo;. This group of four of us met every Thursday night at 5:30 pm to chat everything about podcasts and life.\nThese chats served multiple purposes. They were a great time, and I was usually laughing about our chats after the sessions had finished. More importantly, though, they served as a great way for us all to keep each other accountable.\nComing to pod crew each week with a new update and sharing my learnings kept me interested and on the path to a great podcast.\nI\u0026rsquo;m very fortunate that I was able to share this time with my friends, Joe, Luke and Dom.\nThe Last Episode # The last episode of season one came out on the 18th of October, 2022. Nearly a year after the first episodes came out.\nThat was one episode every week for nearly a year. Not too bad!\nI am really proud of this achievement. I stuck at something for a whole year and had some great moments that I will remember forever.\nLowlights # Some of the hardest things about podcasting are scheduling and social media management.\nScheduling is tricky because there were times when I\u0026rsquo;d have a guest locked in, ready to record their episode for later in the week. Then the guest can\u0026rsquo;t make the session for any number of reasons. What do you do then? It can be quite stressful.\nMany times, I had to be creative and think about what I could post instead so that I could keep the cadence of posting one episode every week.\nI also found social media management to be quite tricky. Managing the podcast, guests and social media is a pretty big workload for one person. I was often out of ideas or had limited time to produce social media content.\nHighlights # My favourite moments of the journey were chatting with some incredible guests. I enjoyed all episodes, but some of my favourites are\nAdam Geha (CEO, EG) Lidia Ranieri (Former Director, Goldman Sachs) Brendan Humphreys (Head of Engineering, Canva) Mykel Dixon (Speaker) Lisa Leong (Broadcaster, ABC) There are so many amazing people out there, I feel so fortunate that I was able to meet and speak with many of them.\nWhat I Learnt # Social pressure is all in your head If you want to do something, make a list of the pros and cons. Cross out any con that relates to what people will think of you. Now decide.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t do it now, you never will This was a key belief that got me started on this journey. If I don\u0026rsquo;t start it now, I may never do this. Is that something I can live with?\nCapitalise on Momentum At times during the podcasting journey, I had built up some momentum, really smashing it with views and listens. I failed to build on this momentum. Next time, when momentum starts to pick up, go even harder.\nClarity is important Many times during the journey, I asked myself some variation of \u0026ldquo;What is the goal with this?\u0026rdquo;. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t totally clear on what I wanted Graduate Theory to become. Was it going to be a casual thing? Did I want to make money? Did I want to quit my job and pursue this full-time? Clarity with this would have helped me.\nConsistency is important Once the ball got rolling for weekly episodes, it was much easier to keep it rolling. Being consistent made it easier to be more consistent. Don\u0026rsquo;t break the chain.\nConclusion # I am so proud of myself and what I achieved with Graduate Theory. Although it\u0026rsquo;s nothing incredible, I pushed past my previous limits to achieve things I had not done before. For that, I am proud.\nI\u0026rsquo;m grateful to all those who supported me on my journey. This is not the end.\nUntil next time.\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"11 November 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/one-year-of-podcasting/","section":"Writing","summary":"I released 52 episodes of my podcast, Graduate Theory. This is its story.\nThe pandemic started in early 2020.\nAs I spent days and days sitting inside, I had an idea.\nWhat if I started a podcast?\n","title":"What I Learnt from One Year of Podcasting","type":"posts"},{"content":"","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/tags/careers/","section":"Tags","summary":"","title":"Careers","type":"tags"},{"content":"","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":"","title":"Graduate Theory","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/series/graduate-theory/","section":"Series","summary":"","title":"Graduate Theory","type":"series"},{"content":"","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/tags/graduate-theory/","section":"Tags","summary":"","title":"Graduate Theory","type":"tags"},{"content":"Lightly edited transcripts from the Graduate Theory podcast archive.\n","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/transcripts/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"Lightly edited transcripts from the Graduate Theory podcast archive.\n","title":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":"","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/series/","section":"Series","summary":"","title":"Series","type":"series"},{"content":"","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/tags/","section":"Tags","summary":"","title":"Tags","type":"tags"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This episode is the final episode of the first season of Graduate Theory.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been a wild ride. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken to some incredible guests and delivered some fantastic interviews.\nAs a newsletter subscriber, you have seen it all happen.\nI want to thank you for your support.\nTo mark the end of the first season, today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a reflection of the year gone by. The lessons learnt, and the memories shared.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s everything from my favourite lessons, what I\u0026rsquo;d do if I had to restart, and my advice for graduates.\nMore updates are on the way, stay tuned\u0026hellip;\nUntil next time, please enjoy.\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Intro\n02:03 Joey Intro\n04:05 Reflecting on One Year\n06:11 Expectations when Starting\n08:43 Standout People or Episodes\n12:58 Personal Development Through the Podcast\n16:22 Advice for People When Creating a Podcast\n19:17 Changes in Life Approach\n24:42 Things I Would Do Differently\n30:35 The Plan\n37:55 Advice for Graduates\n47:12 Conclusion\n49:20 Outro\n","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/52-the-end/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This episode is the final episode of the first season of Graduate Theory.\n","title":"The End","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 52\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is episode 52, which means it\u0026rsquo;s been about a year of Graduate Theory episodes. We\u0026rsquo;ve had an episode come out every Tuesday for pretty much a year now. It\u0026rsquo;s been a wild journey. There have been so many guests on the show, so much knowledge shared and so many learnings—things that I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt myself.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t know what the next steps look like. Perhaps we\u0026rsquo;ll do a season two, but what I am sure of is that I\u0026rsquo;m going to try to find a way to summarise a lot of the content we\u0026rsquo;ve had and the ideas shared on the show. If you want to keep up to date with that and find out exactly what we\u0026rsquo;re working on, please go to the description, subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter and you\u0026rsquo;ll hear all about what is coming up soon.\nWithout further ado, I want to introduce this last episode. This is a really personal episode. I flipped the tables a little bit and got interviewed by a friend of mine, Joe Wehbe, who you may remember. I interviewed him for the first episode of the podcast, so it was great to have him back on the show, interviewing me and asking what I learnt, what my favourite moments of the podcast were, and for some general reflections around starting podcasts, the things I learnt and how the podcast has affected my life.\nWithout further ado, we\u0026rsquo;ll pass it over to the episode, but I just want to thank everyone who listens to Graduate Theory. It has been an amazing journey so far and, from the bottom of my heart, I just want to say a big thank you for listening to the show. It does mean a lot to me that I\u0026rsquo;m able to share this with you and that you take the time to listen to the kinds of things I have to say. I feel really grateful, so I just want to say a massive thank you. But that\u0026rsquo;s enough from me. Let\u0026rsquo;s get down to the episode. Please enjoy.\nJoey Intro # James: I guess I wanted to reflect on what we\u0026rsquo;ve done over almost one year. It\u0026rsquo;s probably over a year, including preparation for the first episodes, but I think it would be nice to recap, given that 52 is a reasonable milestone. It\u0026rsquo;s been an interesting year: a lot of learnings, both in and out of the podcast, a lot of growth and a lot of lessons. So maybe we can introduce you. For those who have missed your previous appearances on the pod, maybe you want to share your quick bio.\nJoe: Thanks, Jay, for having me back. For those who haven\u0026rsquo;t seen me on the podcast before, I\u0026rsquo;m Joe Wehbe. I am a writer and a podcaster myself. I\u0026rsquo;ve done a bunch of other things—I\u0026rsquo;ll save everyone a long story—but I\u0026rsquo;ve studied psychology, done non-profit stuff in Nepal, done a bit of real estate and also stuff in education. I love anything about creativity and a lot of the same topics you talk about on the podcast, like careers, meaningful careers and impact. All those sorts of things hover around the same conversations, and often the books I write are probably relevant to that.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m keen to do a bit of a reverse interview. Is that what they call it, a reverse interview? That\u0026rsquo;s what professional podcasters would call it, something like that.\nJoe: You can invent it. You can coin that. You heard it here first.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive into some of the history of the pod, and we can kick it off.\nReflecting on One Year # Joe: Congratulations on a year for you, but I\u0026rsquo;m sure it\u0026rsquo;s been a bit longer than that with the preparation. How does it feel? Because you\u0026rsquo;re Mr Consistency in our little community of podcasters, James Fricker. You don\u0026rsquo;t miss a week, unless I\u0026rsquo;m mistaken, so 52 episodes on the dot. How does it feel?\nJames: I think it feels good. When I first started, I\u0026rsquo;m not sure what I expected, but I feel good that I\u0026rsquo;ve managed to come this far. A lot of people, when I say I have a podcast and then say I\u0026rsquo;ve done 50 episodes, go, \u0026ldquo;Oh, a podcast. Cool. Fifty? Oh, that\u0026rsquo;s really good.\u0026rdquo; So I\u0026rsquo;m proud of that. Obviously, I\u0026rsquo;ve had a lot of help and support along the way, but consistency is a hard nut to crack. It\u0026rsquo;s quite easy to start, but doing it for a long time is quite hard.\nI\u0026rsquo;m very proud of that. In other projects I\u0026rsquo;ve done in the past, that\u0026rsquo;s probably been the one thing I\u0026rsquo;ve struggled with. It\u0026rsquo;s easier to think of an idea and start it, but consistency is the one thing that lets you down. So I\u0026rsquo;m proud that it\u0026rsquo;s been a year and very consistent, and I\u0026rsquo;m happy with how it\u0026rsquo;s going. I think it\u0026rsquo;s been a pretty good learning experience for me and for the people listening as well.\nI think I\u0026rsquo;ve been able to provide a platform for some very interesting people who perhaps don\u0026rsquo;t have a big platform themselves. Not that Graduate Theory is a big platform, but it just allows them to get there.\nJoe: It\u0026rsquo;s very big for someone who has no platform.\nJames: These people have great messages and they often don\u0026rsquo;t get shown to a certain demographic, so it\u0026rsquo;s been cool to highlight that.\nExpectations when Starting # Joe: That\u0026rsquo;s a very mature and selfless reflection, I think. Did you have an expectation at all when you started? I never even knew, to be honest. I was talking to you when you started, of course, but did you expect you were just trialling it, or did you think you would go this far, or did you have, \u0026ldquo;I want to at least get to this point\u0026rdquo;? I\u0026rsquo;m very curious.\nJames: I don\u0026rsquo;t really know. The answer to that question has probably changed a lot for me and continues to fluctuate. At certain points I think, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;d be cool to have this as a side business, have all this stuff and make it a whole massive operation.\u0026rdquo; That would be really cool. Or is it just more of a side thing where I interview someone every week and it\u0026rsquo;s a bit more chilled? I\u0026rsquo;ve fluctuated between those quite a bit during the process.\nBefore this episode, I was thinking back to what led up to even starting the pod. I remember—and I think you would remember this too—I had an Instagram page maybe 18 months ago, for probably four months or so. That was a similar thing where I was asking, \u0026ldquo;What is the expectation here?\u0026rdquo; I probably didn\u0026rsquo;t really have one. It was just that I wanted to share and contribute, and I guess potentially turn it into something more substantial. Perhaps it\u0026rsquo;s to my own undoing that there isn\u0026rsquo;t a clear thing there, but I think it\u0026rsquo;s been valuable regardless.\nJoe: I remember that very well. I guess it\u0026rsquo;s never the end of the world. It\u0026rsquo;s funny when you mention the fluctuation; I think it\u0026rsquo;s such a relatable thing for podcasters because it can be the most casual thing in the world, but a lot of things also come through it. One thing you must have enjoyed, I\u0026rsquo;m sure, is the people you reached out to and connected with. A lot of podcasters say you don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily get to meet the same people without a podcast. It\u0026rsquo;s an easy excuse and a very digestible ask. It squashes some objections people might normally have to just having a conversation with someone.\nStandout People or Episodes # Joe: Who are those people? Do you think you\u0026rsquo;ve found a community? You don\u0026rsquo;t have to say me—I\u0026rsquo;m here, James. You\u0026rsquo;re already on the list; the audience knows. But apart from me, does anyone stand out in particular?\nJames: On the general point about having access to interesting people, I would extend that to interesting things. When I started was probably when Earlywork started to gain a lot of traction in the Australian startup space, so that was quite cool. Next Chapter also started around a similar time, I think. Access to these communities is an example: I probably wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have access to, or know, certain people inside those places if I didn\u0026rsquo;t have the pod, so that\u0026rsquo;s been cool.\nIn terms of interesting people, Adam Gaha is a great example. He\u0026rsquo;s very well connected. You introduced me to him, and then I\u0026rsquo;ve subsequently introduced him to other people. It\u0026rsquo;s been cool to have access to him, and it\u0026rsquo;s not even just for my benefit. People who know me can also have access to some of these people.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s probably hard to narrow it down to a shortlist of people, but generally it\u0026rsquo;s been quite interesting to hear from different people, see what they\u0026rsquo;re doing and see the kinds of places where interesting people are working. I think it\u0026rsquo;s broadened my horizons. I probably couldn\u0026rsquo;t narrow it down to knowing a specific person, if that makes sense.\nJoe: A lot of the value you get from conversations can be very intangible. You get a lot of value from talking to any of the people you mentioned, or a lot of the other guests you\u0026rsquo;ve had on, but it can be very hard to pinpoint specific things. It soaks into people on a much deeper layer. Naval says this about listening to podcasts and that sort of thing: it\u0026rsquo;s not totally conscious learning; it\u0026rsquo;s more of a soaking-in effect, so it\u0026rsquo;s very hard to pinpoint.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t want to project my experience onto you, but you generally just feel, \u0026ldquo;Wow, I\u0026rsquo;m learning so much. This is very stimulating.\u0026rdquo; I think it makes you think a bit differently at times. It\u0026rsquo;s very natural, the same way you would talk to anyone and softly learn from them.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve had some bumper episodes, that\u0026rsquo;s for sure. For me, the Gaha one was a very, very good episode. Obviously, Luke and I love the Gilly one; I\u0026rsquo;ve listened to that a couple of times. I know I haven\u0026rsquo;t even talked to him in that way, but you hear him on an episode. I think it\u0026rsquo;s very true that you gave a lot of people like that a chance to tell their story and share some of their insights. That\u0026rsquo;s something you should be very proud of, and the beauty of it is that you did it, so they\u0026rsquo;re up there forever.\nJames: There are many episodes that I enjoyed doing. Those two, definitely. The Gilly one had an impact on lots of people, probably more than I expected, which is pretty cool to facilitate. There are many episodes that I think are underrated, where I personally had a great time and learnt a lot. The Michael Dixon one, for example, was really good.\nPersonal Development Through the Podcast # Joe: The very recent one was a good episode. How do you think you personally developed as the podcast went on? What key areas are different about you now versus when you started?\nJames: A few things. On an interviewing level, I think I learnt quite a bit. The first one we did was with you. It was a good interview, but I think I\u0026rsquo;ve progressed a lot further since then. I\u0026rsquo;ve experimented with different approaches and landed on a good way of doing things. When we were first starting, it was like, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got no idea how this works. Have a crack and see what happens.\u0026rdquo;\nJoe: I would have made you very nervous as well.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;re a strong character; it\u0026rsquo;s not easy. There are a few points here. In the actual interviewing, there were periods when I was very Q\u0026amp;A. I\u0026rsquo;ve come back to being more conversational in recent times. I\u0026rsquo;ve moved between different approaches to the actual interview and landed somewhere that\u0026rsquo;s quite good, which is a more relaxed way of doing things: no intro, just start chatting. That has generally worked the best.\nI also remember having Darren Fleming on. At the end of the interview I said, \u0026ldquo;Hey man, do you know anyone else I can chat to?\u0026rdquo; I know Darren very well. He gave me these two guys\u0026rsquo; phone numbers: Oscar Trimboli and Ishan, both of whom I\u0026rsquo;ve interviewed. But when he gave me their phone numbers, I thought, \u0026ldquo;I have to actually call this guy.\u0026rdquo; I was scared out of my mind. I think everyone has had at least some level of that experience where you\u0026rsquo;re like, \u0026ldquo;I really don\u0026rsquo;t want to call this number.\u0026rdquo;\nIn terms of guest outreach, many people have said no to coming on the show, so dealing with that has been interesting. I think it has helped me reach out to people outside the pod. Seeing the access I can have to people through Graduate Theory, which is relatively unknown, really showed me how reaching out allows you to speak to a lot of different people. You don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily need a podcast or something to chat to them on. People are generally quite receptive. Obviously, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to reach out to people with big profiles, but there are certain people who don\u0026rsquo;t have big profiles—maybe it\u0026rsquo;s the CEO of your company or people like that—and you can get reasonably far if you want to speak to them and ask them interesting things.\nAdvice for People When Creating a Podcast # Joe: Do you have any advice or reflections for people who might not have a podcast but want to reach out to someone? Reaching out internally is a big one—leadership at the company you\u0026rsquo;re at is something I hear about a lot—or just someone whose work you find interesting. I might be fishing in the wrong spot here, but are there any lessons or takeaways you\u0026rsquo;d have?\nJames: I did a reasonable amount of research into cold emails, so I have a template that I use. If you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out to enough people, you want to have something templated, but you also want to have a specific ask and a specific reason why you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out to this particular person. If you just email everyone the exact same thing, obviously that\u0026rsquo;s not going to be very effective.\nYou want to tailor it to the person. I start by trying to mention something recent that they did. Usually, I\u0026rsquo;ll look at their LinkedIn to see if they\u0026rsquo;ve posted or done anything recently, comment on that, introduce myself and then say why I\u0026rsquo;m reaching out. In my case, it would be about the podcast and the avenue through which I found them. I might include some social proof, such as saying that I\u0026rsquo;ve previously interviewed some of their friends and naming those friends, so they know I\u0026rsquo;m not just some very strange person and that I have some credibility.\nThen I would say, \u0026ldquo;Here are three things I want to speak to you about.\u0026rdquo; I would already have looked at their profile and the things they\u0026rsquo;ve done to see what I actually want to ask this person about and how I envisage the interview. Then I would put some kind of link at the end and say, \u0026ldquo;If you\u0026rsquo;re interested, here\u0026rsquo;s the calendar link,\u0026rdquo; or wait for them to respond and say they\u0026rsquo;re keen, then send them the link. That\u0026rsquo;s generally how I would do it. I think you want some sort of social proof and to be fairly specific about why you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out to them. That\u0026rsquo;s very important.\nJoe: I agree. That\u0026rsquo;s very interesting on the podcast side. What about the theme of the podcast, which was the graduate-level experience or thereabouts? Were there any big changes on that side of things for you, such as how you thought about your own career or things to do differently? I know work isn\u0026rsquo;t in a little container and it impacts the rest of life too, but around the theme of your career and work, were there any changes?\nChanges in Life Approach # Joe: You\u0026rsquo;re at the same company. It\u0026rsquo;s not as if you\u0026rsquo;ve changed roles, or anything that I\u0026rsquo;m aware of. Maybe you\u0026rsquo;ve changed internally, but were there any real, noticeable changes in the way you approach the working part of life, if that makes sense?\nJames: One of the biggest things I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt through interviewing people is probably about startups. Before I started the pod, I don\u0026rsquo;t think I\u0026rsquo;d ever really delved into this world or heard much about it. I\u0026rsquo;ve interviewed a number of CEOs, like Andrew, so that has been interesting.\nEven in terms of how someone might craft their career over a ten-year period, people talk about the optimal way to structure things: when it\u0026rsquo;s a good idea to do this or that. One way I\u0026rsquo;ve seen people do it is to work in corporate, get into a good graduate programme for two years or maybe more, then join a startup. You try to pick a good one that\u0026rsquo;s going places. If it goes places, that\u0026rsquo;s great; if not, you\u0026rsquo;ve had corporate experience, so it\u0026rsquo;s not too risky. That\u0026rsquo;s a story I\u0026rsquo;ve heard many times.\nJoe: The logic is that you\u0026rsquo;ve got enough experience in terms of skills, and a track record of working in a certain type of role, so it\u0026rsquo;s easier for you to get another job. Is that right?\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s right. Going straight from university to a startup is hard, at least from what I\u0026rsquo;ve heard, because there\u0026rsquo;s so much to learn. It\u0026rsquo;s like being thrown into the deep end of the pool: you need to be able to swim a little so you don\u0026rsquo;t drown. That\u0026rsquo;s probably one reason you\u0026rsquo;d want to have some experience first.\nThe second would be that, if the startup fails for whatever reason, you have some proof that you\u0026rsquo;re sensible and have worked at a good place before. It\u0026rsquo;s less risky if you then go back there or do a similar thing. That\u0026rsquo;s definitely one.\nI can\u0026rsquo;t point to any specifics—and I\u0026rsquo;ll go and find these—but there have been a few times when someone has shared questions they\u0026rsquo;ll ask a company before joining, how to know whether the company will be a good fit, or what questions to ask during the interview process. In quite a few episodes, people have gone, \u0026ldquo;Ask this, this, this and this. Here are four or five questions.\u0026rdquo; I think compiling a list would be interesting and provide some good ideas for things to ask at these different stages.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s hard to think about things like how you know whether a company will be a good fit for you, or what the process looks like when you\u0026rsquo;re looking for your next role. I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt a lot about how different people have navigated this, and that\u0026rsquo;s been quite interesting and useful to me.\nJoe: I remember the episode with the guy at McKinsey, Cheran. I think that one had a lot of very practical advice for that world, about summer internships and internships in general. When you\u0026rsquo;re at university and looking to get roles in that neck of the woods, it was a hell of a process. That guy was very proactive about it.\nJames: When I was at uni, I had no idea how that kind of thing even worked because I wasn\u0026rsquo;t friends with anyone doing that process. There was no one around me whom I could see doing it. It was very interesting to hear the level of detail and thought that goes into preparing for those things, including the interviews. There\u0026rsquo;s almost a whole culture around getting jobs at these places. A lot of it was unknown to me, so it was very interesting to hear how it all works.\nJoe: It\u0026rsquo;s a fascinating thing. The other thing I was curious about, because we were talking about it before this episode, is: given it\u0026rsquo;s been a year, if you were to start over, is there anything you would have done differently?\nThings I Would Do Differently # Joe: Looking back on this journey, is there anything you think about?\nJames: One of the things I haven\u0026rsquo;t done as well as I would have liked is marketing the pod through social media and other places. There have been periods when I\u0026rsquo;ve done that well and the pod has grown a decent amount. The consistency of episodes has been there, but the consistency of the marketing, social media posts and so on hasn\u0026rsquo;t been there the entire time. If I could rewind, I would try to be more consistent in those areas. I think that would have brought more eyeballs to the pod.\nI think part of it comes down to the clarity we were talking about earlier. It would have helped if I\u0026rsquo;d had a clear idea of exactly what I was aiming to achieve. That would have made a lot of these things easier to justify in my head. I was moving between an enterprise pod and a casual pod on the weekend. For one month, I\u0026rsquo;m like, \u0026ldquo;Let\u0026rsquo;s post every day, twice a day. Let\u0026rsquo;s go really hard.\u0026rdquo; Then the next week, it\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;This is just a chilled thing. We don\u0026rsquo;t even need to do it. No biggie.\u0026rdquo; So the consistency on that side probably wasn\u0026rsquo;t there.\nMaybe, in hindsight, I could have sent more DMs. Perhaps I didn\u0026rsquo;t push the guest outreach enough. I feel I could have reached out to more high-profile people and received some noes. Reflecting now, I feel I could have tried some more long shots. I got some pretty good guests on, but there are levels to the game, and I could have thrown in a few more ambitious attempts.\nJoe: Are there any big names on the dream list—the theoretical dream guest?\nJames: Someone whose name has come up a little bit is Malcolm Turnbull. He\u0026rsquo;s been on a few different ones. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure if I did end up emailing someone. I can\u0026rsquo;t remember; maybe I did. I think someone found his LinkedIn page and sent me an email address associated with it, but it wasn\u0026rsquo;t his email. It was someone else\u0026rsquo;s, and it didn\u0026rsquo;t have Malcolm or anything in the address. I think I may have emailed that but didn\u0026rsquo;t hear back. Whatever. He\u0026rsquo;d be one example.\nThe co-founders of Atlassian would be another example: these kinds of people who are international. It would have been interesting because, at a macro level, if they say no, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t really matter. You don\u0026rsquo;t know how far you can go until you\u0026rsquo;re getting those noes. Perhaps I could have gone harder there and tried more of those, and then I would have known I was really pushing the limits.\nJoe: It sounds like you needed a bit more David Goggins while you were doing outreach, maybe. Although you\u0026rsquo;re a man who holds himself to very high standards, I think you\u0026rsquo;ve done a good job. On paper, it always makes sense: if someone says no, what\u0026rsquo;s the problem? It\u0026rsquo;s not the end of the world. But perceived rejection is still another thing entirely.\nJames: I think it\u0026rsquo;s almost worse when people say yes and then don\u0026rsquo;t follow through. That\u0026rsquo;s more frustrating. It\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;Why are we stuck here?\u0026rdquo;\nJoe: You feel like you\u0026rsquo;ve got something and make plans.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;ve already celebrated the yes, at least.\nJoe: At least they responded. I think of my real estate days, where you felt like you had someone buying a home. That meant a lot of money; there were real stakes, not just someone agreeing to go on the podcast and then falling through. It\u0026rsquo;s the biggest roller-coaster experience. It makes everything else seem very small in comparison. I guess that\u0026rsquo;s why it\u0026rsquo;s a bit antifragile in that way, if you can get used to that sort of thing. But it\u0026rsquo;s a bloody world. That\u0026rsquo;s why you have to become pretty bloody stoic. It\u0026rsquo;s not always a fun ride.\nJames: Obviously, a pod isn\u0026rsquo;t like running a company, but I think there are some parallels. Maybe that\u0026rsquo;s stretching the comparison too far.\nJoe: Any project like this is like a business in a way, so it has similar dynamics, even if its complexity is different. It\u0026rsquo;s a different type of thing, but you can\u0026rsquo;t get away from those moving parts.\nThe Plan # Joe: What\u0026rsquo;s the plan from here? You\u0026rsquo;ve done 52 episodes and completed the year.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;ll see. Season two is a possibility at this stage. I\u0026rsquo;d say it\u0026rsquo;s 50–50. It\u0026rsquo;s October now; we\u0026rsquo;ll leave it until the end of the year and see how I feel next year.\nIf I did come back to the pod, I think season two would likely have a slightly different theme. Things like this have to follow my own interests on some level. Starting work after university—and the university experience itself—aren\u0026rsquo;t as interesting to me as they were last year. If I were going to do more podcasting, maybe it wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be called Graduate Theory, or maybe it would. I don\u0026rsquo;t know.\nI\u0026rsquo;d be more focused on early- to mid-career topics, and maybe even more focused on my own career path. For example, I do engineering at work, so how do you go from a mid-level to a senior-level engineer? How do you become a CTO or something like that? Those questions would be more interesting to me than how you get your first job after university.\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s the only thing you can talk about for so long. Part of the reason I\u0026rsquo;m keen to stop now is that I feel we\u0026rsquo;ve covered that topic to a decent degree. With a lot of the guests I\u0026rsquo;ve had on, we speak about more general things than that anyway. Most of the episodes aren\u0026rsquo;t really aimed at uni students; it\u0026rsquo;s definitely more general life advice, perhaps aimed at a younger audience. So there\u0026rsquo;s that.\nJoe: It\u0026rsquo;s something Gilly said to me when we talked about a similar theme. Being alive in the eighties and so on, he noticed when the concept of career coaches started becoming mainstream or popping up, and how quickly the main flavour turned from career coaching to life coaching. If you think about it, life coaching came from that because careers are connected to everything else. That was a big theme in Gilly\u0026rsquo;s episode—and in heaps of people\u0026rsquo;s episodes—so naturally it always jumps around related topics.\nUni is the same. Uni is normally connected to a career, in most cases. When you\u0026rsquo;re at uni, you can focus on uni, but there\u0026rsquo;s only so much you can optimise the uni experience when it\u0026rsquo;s really trying to serve something else. You\u0026rsquo;re not over-optimising the uni experience; you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about where it goes. So it\u0026rsquo;s quite natural.\nI always think it\u0026rsquo;s almost a good sign when you feel you\u0026rsquo;re outgrowing something, if that\u0026rsquo;s the language you\u0026rsquo;d use. If you\u0026rsquo;re not outgrowing something, maybe it\u0026rsquo;s limiting you. It depends, but naturally you should evolve. You shouldn\u0026rsquo;t get stuck in one thing. In theory, a business evolves. They say that about Berkshire Hathaway and Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett: what worked for Berkshire Hathaway in one decade didn\u0026rsquo;t work in the next. They keep reinventing themselves. Sporting teams are like that, right?\nAs someone who\u0026rsquo;s watched you along this journey, I think it\u0026rsquo;s been really great to watch. Hopefully, I speak for a lot of the other people who\u0026rsquo;ve listened and enjoyed watching alongside as well. It\u0026rsquo;s very rewarding—and easy to underappreciate—watching someone who\u0026rsquo;s very honestly and open-mindedly going on the journey. Again, this is just my reflection of you, but it\u0026rsquo;s not, \u0026ldquo;I have all the answers. I have everything.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s very open: there are cool people; I\u0026rsquo;m a regular, relatable person interested in making the most of my career and my time; I want to be intentional about it; what can I learn from these people around me; what is out there?\nI would say it\u0026rsquo;s just so relatable. I think it\u0026rsquo;s interesting for people still watching at this point that maybe they feel themselves evolving too. Who knows? They\u0026rsquo;re complex things, right? You can\u0026rsquo;t put one pin in it, and if you could, it\u0026rsquo;s probably not the best thing. When you talk about clarity, I think about that too. Sometimes it\u0026rsquo;s really good. I always think of clarity as a set of circles, like a ripple. It\u0026rsquo;s a continual journey, ring by ring and layer by layer, and I don\u0026rsquo;t think it ever ends. That\u0026rsquo;s from someone who\u0026rsquo;s a little bit older. I don\u0026rsquo;t know if I can pull the age card here. Sorry, that\u0026rsquo;s my rambling.\nJames: I agree with what you\u0026rsquo;re saying. There\u0026rsquo;s the idea of seasons: some things are around for a season, and then you do something else. It\u0026rsquo;s not necessarily bad to do something for a while and then do something else. It\u0026rsquo;s all in pursuit of enjoying the experience of life. I think it\u0026rsquo;s good to do that every now and then.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been cool. I\u0026rsquo;m not some super-fortunate person. There is some element of fortune, perhaps, but I\u0026rsquo;m not really special in any way. Many people could do something similar to a lot of the things I\u0026rsquo;ve done and the sort of journey I\u0026rsquo;ve had. Hopefully, my experience shows that things like this are within reach and people can actually do them now. The beauty of the internet is that there are no real barriers to this kind of thing. There\u0026rsquo;s no barrier to asking your company\u0026rsquo;s boss out for coffee. Anyone can do that.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been very cool. I feel very fortunate that I\u0026rsquo;ve been able to speak to so many interesting people who have given me their time and their lessons.\nAdvice for Graduates # Joe: One of the last things I want to make sure I throw in there, because you\u0026rsquo;re probably too modest to say it yourself, is that the word \u0026ldquo;unspecial\u0026rdquo; is tricky. I understand that you mean relatable, and that there are a lot of people out there in circumstances that aren\u0026rsquo;t too different, but I think there\u0026rsquo;s something very special about what you\u0026rsquo;ve done.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve told you this story—and sorry to bring it back to Gilly once again—but he explained that, because he\u0026rsquo;s about 75, he has people from his year group whom he went to school with more than 50 years ago. For whatever reason, one of his schoolmates Googled his name and found this long interview he was in. His schoolmate watched the whole interview and said to Michael, \u0026ldquo;I couldn\u0026rsquo;t put it down. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t stop watching. It was so engaging, just learning about your story.\u0026rdquo; He insisted that all the people in their year watch the interview. I know they probably use email or something, people of that age. He said, \u0026ldquo;Everyone has to watch this interview. Look at everything Michael achieved,\u0026rdquo; and so on.\nI remember that episode. Luke and I talked about it, and I know people going through very difficult times in their careers who found episodes like that very useful. I wanted to mention that because things like that might not look significant from the outside sometimes, but there have been a lot of them. There might be more you\u0026rsquo;re not aware of that have been very special things to do for people while you\u0026rsquo;re humbly looking to enhance your own wisdom. I hope you and the other people who\u0026rsquo;ve been along for the journey appreciate things like that, because that\u0026rsquo;s very special.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s what it\u0026rsquo;s all about: stories like that. A lot of friends of ours watched that episode, as you said, and it had an impact on them. People have said things to me about other episodes, such as, \u0026ldquo;This one was really helpful during this period of my life and really helped me do this thing,\u0026rdquo; or whatever. That\u0026rsquo;s quite cool. I\u0026rsquo;m able to have fun speaking to people who are hopefully having fun speaking to me, and we\u0026rsquo;re able to share a conversation that helps other people. I think it\u0026rsquo;s a win-win-win.\nJoe: It really is. I feel like turning your own question back on you at this point, around the advice you would give to young graduates—or, unless I\u0026rsquo;ve butchered it, I believe the question is what you\u0026rsquo;d tell an earlier version of yourself. Not to put pressure on you, mate, but you\u0026rsquo;ve done 52 episodes. You\u0026rsquo;ve talked to some incredible people, including Joey in episode one—really high-calibre people—with more than 52 hours of insight, probably, plus everything in between. So, no pressure, James. Distil all that into a single question to assess your worth. Seriously, what\u0026rsquo;s top of mind right now as your distilled answer to that question?\nJames: Firstly, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to sum up all the episodes. There are many little pieces of advice that are valuable but just wouldn\u0026rsquo;t fit. I guess one main point comes from my experience starting things like the pod or the Instagram page we spoke about. I\u0026rsquo;d had the desire to do things like that for some time before I did them. On reflection, part of the reason I didn\u0026rsquo;t do them earlier was that I was weighed down in some way by social expectations and what other people were going to think of me. It probably wasn\u0026rsquo;t even that I recognised that; I probably just stopped caring and decided I was going to do it regardless.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a big thing. So much of how we live and the things we do are defined by our social group. It\u0026rsquo;s the super-clichéd idea about the five people you spend the most time with. For me, the whole process of the Instagram page leading to the pod was around the same time that I was connecting a lot with you, and The Constant Student was around at a similar time. Seeing all these people do stuff like that made it feel like this was just the normal behaviour of people: people do these things. That almost created space for me to do those things.\nBefore then, I wanted these things but didn\u0026rsquo;t really feel comfortable owning them. I\u0026rsquo;d be chatting to someone and we just wouldn\u0026rsquo;t talk about this whole side of me or the things I was interested in. A really great experience for me has been changing that. One of my biggest learnings through all of this has been about the things I\u0026rsquo;m interested in but used not to share with everyone.\nThere were so many things. I used to read lots, but no one really knew that I read any books. I may have told a couple of people, but not my closest friends. I would do weird things like read my news on an RSS reader, which is very nerdy, but I never told anyone because I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to be seen as the weird guy who does that stuff. There\u0026rsquo;s a whole list of things. Early on at university, I tried to start a Shopify dropshipping business and didn\u0026rsquo;t tell anyone because I didn\u0026rsquo;t want other people to know I was into that kind of thing.\nThat was part of my life for a long time. The pod was the first time I posted on LinkedIn, telling everyone, \u0026ldquo;This is what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do.\u0026rdquo; It was maybe a bit nerve-racking at the time, but now I feel much more integrated, for lack of a better word. When I\u0026rsquo;m chatting to people now, I don\u0026rsquo;t have to hide this whole part of me that\u0026rsquo;s interested in all this different stuff.\nThat has been one of my biggest learnings and something I\u0026rsquo;m grateful for. If someone were facing a similar challenge, I think they should find ways to overcome that feeling, whether by doing something in public or otherwise. If you\u0026rsquo;re hiding yourself in that way, you should try to find ways not to do that, because it\u0026rsquo;s a big shame when you\u0026rsquo;re hiding yourself and your interests. I would even say to go out and find people with whom it\u0026rsquo;s okay to speak about things like that, because that will make it a lot easier.\nJoe: Beautiful answer. What more could I add to that story?\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m seriously grateful for this whole journey. Perhaps that\u0026rsquo;s the journey of life: peeling back the layers of the onion, in some way. I\u0026rsquo;m grateful that I had this experience early in my life, so I can now bring my whole self to work, home and wherever else it might be, and it\u0026rsquo;s not something I have to hide. I\u0026rsquo;m very grateful. It\u0026rsquo;s been a very transformative experience for me.\nConclusion # Joe: Thanks for sharing it with us all, and for letting people like me be part of it and be on the podcast. On behalf of all your lovely, wise, intelligent and caring guests, thank you. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a beautiful message to end on. It\u0026rsquo;s so valuable and important, and I really don\u0026rsquo;t have anything to add. It\u0026rsquo;s incredibly well said and well intentioned. You can tell you really feel it: it\u0026rsquo;s much more than words, and it\u0026rsquo;s something you really mean and have learnt on a deep level.\nJames: Thank you, man. I appreciate your support throughout this whole journey, and there are many others—too many to name—who have been instrumental in this as well. I want to thank everyone who\u0026rsquo;s been involved in the journey. It\u0026rsquo;s been a wild ride. We\u0026rsquo;ll see whether season two comes back, and if it does, I\u0026rsquo;ll be stoked to share it with everyone.\nJoe: I hope there\u0026rsquo;s some form of something from you that everyone can enjoy.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s the plan. We\u0026rsquo;re working on a small product to summarise a lot of the content, at least partially. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to do it justice, but I\u0026rsquo;ll try my best. Keep an eye out for that.\nJoe: Is there anything you need to communicate about where people can find you, reach out to you or anything like that?\nJames: I think the first link in the description should be the newsletter, and that\u0026rsquo;ll be the best place to keep up to date with the goings-on. Otherwise, you can look at the Graduate Theory website. Graduate Theory on LinkedIn is probably the best place to catch it on social media, and YouTube as well. Those would be the best places to keep up to date.\nOutro # James: We\u0026rsquo;ve reached the end of this Graduate Theory episode. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already, please subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter. That\u0026rsquo;s where you\u0026rsquo;re going to find out everything that\u0026rsquo;s going on after this episode. I really look forward to seeing you there and letting you know what\u0026rsquo;s coming next.\nI want to thank you again for listening to this show. It means a lot to me that you\u0026rsquo;ve listened this far into the episode. Thanks so much, and hopefully this has been valuable for you. It\u0026rsquo;s certainly been valuable for me. Until next time, we\u0026rsquo;ll see you around.\n← Back to episode 52\n","date":"17 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/52-the-end/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 52\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: The End","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Everyone wants to get into startups.\nThey\u0026rsquo;ve become the new hottest thing.\nToday, we uncover what to look for when joining a startup.\nNan Meka is VP at Pet Circle and a Fellow at Afterwork VC.\n🤝 Connect with Nan # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nan-meka-8b5a5812/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Interviewing the Startup # When looking for a startup role, you should be interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing you.\nHere are some things to look for:\nrigour of the business model market size (is the company in a growing market?) diversity team composition founder and exec team history product reviews and customer feedback You should research the company thoroughly, and ask even more detailed questions during the interview.\nIf your interviewers don\u0026rsquo;t give many details, take it as a sign that they may have something to hide.\nThe Fallacy of Fundraising Size # Startups that raise money are often in the news. We default to assuming that a big raise means a good company.\nThis is not always the case.\nCurrently, companies that recently raised lots of money are having to lay off workers.\nNan suggests taking the investment size with a grain of salt.\nWhat is more important than the amount of capital raised is whether the company has a product that people love and will pay for.\nChasing Compensation # As young people, we make mistakes often.\nNan says that one of the biggest mistakes we make is chasing compensation rather than learning opportunities.\nI think early on in your career you should definitely optimize for learning over earning a high salary and even the role as well. And I strongly believe that if you invest in learning first, you are gonna develop that highly sought-after skill set which translates into that valuable role, which a high salary is ultimately a byproduct of.\nEarning rather than learning may end up resulting in you earning less later in life.\nWhile you are young, pursue learning opportunities.\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Nan Meka\n00:33 Transitioning from Corporate to Startups\n07:45 Finding a good startup\n15:45 Learning and Career Progression\n19:58 Mistakes young people make\n23:57 Nan\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n","date":"10 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/51-nan-meka-choosing-startup-thats-right/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Everyone wants to get into startups.\nThey’ve become the new hottest thing.\n","title":"Nan Meka | On Choosing a Startup That's Right for You","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 51\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nNan Meka # Nan: I think that, as somebody entering a startup, you might get enamoured with the size of its fundraising. Having been in a startup, however, I know that fundraising is not an indication of successful product–market fit, a successful commercial model or a great customer experience, so it is one metric I definitely ignore.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on the show. I want to start by asking about your corporate background.\nTransitioning from Corporate to Startups # James: You worked at KPMG, Macquarie and a bunch of other really corporate places, and now you\u0026rsquo;ve been in startup land for a little while. What led you out of the corporate world and into the startup scene? Was there a particular moment that triggered that transition?\nNan: Earlier in my career, I was on the other side: I was assessing and investing in internet businesses. I was also in the gaming space, developing commercial models and supporting digital businesses with their strategies. I spent most of my earlier career in the consumer tech space, particularly on the corporate VC side, in strategy and M\u0026amp;A, as well as on the early-stage startup and scale-up company side in the last year.\nAs a non-technical person, I really didn\u0026rsquo;t think there was a pathway for me into early-stage startups, especially with my random background. I found that was the furthest thing from the truth because there was pent-up demand for malleable generalists who learn fast, solve problems, help scale the business and create defensibility against the internal and external shocks that an early-stage business constantly experiences throughout its journey.\nThe startup ecosystem wasn\u0026rsquo;t so big back in the day—and I don\u0026rsquo;t really want to show my age right now. I think Blackbird VC was only just coming to fruition around that time, so it was a very nascent period for early-stage investing in Australia. There wasn\u0026rsquo;t much of a community or many meet-ups in this space. I basically had to reach out to founders I admired and identify problems they were solving that deeply interested me.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not going to lie: it was hard to make that leap from a very structured, well-resourced environment to one that was grey, ambiguous, chaotic and all of the above. Luckily, I got my first foray into startups about seven years ago when I joined a little online bus-booking business. It ended up scaling to about $200 million in gross sales a year and helping millions of customers travel more easily.\nI worked in an area called business operations. What is business operations? The purpose of my team was to drive the growth of the business by launching and scaling new initiatives, optimising day-to-day operations or doing a mixture of both. I was fortunate enough to work on many different problems across product, marketing and customer success, ensuring that the business was solving the right problems in line with company-level objectives.\nFor example, we had a backlog of customer queries, so we asked how we could improve the customer experience. That\u0026rsquo;s deeply important in the online travel space: you need the ability to connect with somebody in real time and have your query answered because you\u0026rsquo;re about to miss your bus, which will affect your journey and experience. I looked at streamlining processes to handle those queries and at ways to improve metrics such as NPS. I also worked with marketing to launch loyalty programs and improve retention rates.\nThere was a variety of work. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t an expert in anything, but I was deeply curious about how things worked and had a very growth-oriented, learning mindset, like a baby just coming into the world.\nMore recently, I was the Head of Operations at Simply Wall St, a B2C SaaS app that has helped more than five million retail investors make better stock decisions. I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you\u0026rsquo;ve used it.\nJames: I have. I had a little bit of a play around with it in the lead-up to this interview, but not before then.\nNan: It\u0026rsquo;s great, isn\u0026rsquo;t it? I\u0026rsquo;m not attracted to just any startup, but to a startup that\u0026rsquo;s solving a business problem—or any problem—that hits a personal note with me. I was already a Simply Wall St user because it helped me on my personal retail-investing journey. There was a lot of asymmetric information. I didn\u0026rsquo;t have access to a clunky Bloomberg terminal, which was prohibitively expensive. I believe they were about $150,000 per terminal or licence—something crazy like that—which a hedge fund or large company would have. As a result, I didn\u0026rsquo;t have the same level playing field.\nI saw a business and a founder, Al, who were deeply passionate about that space. He was levelling access and simplifying the journey for the average Jane or Joe. That\u0026rsquo;s what attracted me to the business.\nI\u0026rsquo;m now a VP in the finance team at Pet Circle, which is obviously a leading online pet company in Australia. It was a tough decision to leave Simply Wall St because I went from an early-stage startup solving super-interesting problems to a business doing exactly the same thing, but further along in its scale-up journey.\nThe decision came down to my skill set. I wanted to level up, expand my toolkit and join a company during that journey. I fell in love with the founders\u0026rsquo; stories and their ambition to build a great, enduring business that aims to meet all our furry and scaly friends\u0026rsquo; needs. Hearing that vision from Mike, our CEO, and our CFO during the interview process—and hearing their excitement—really drew me in.\nMy team and I help the business make the best decisions possible. We enable business leaders to make the right choices for the customer and the company; support and optimise existing business lines; help the business plan better; and look at new growth opportunities, such as entering new markets or adjacent businesses in the pet space.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s super cool. Thank you so much for sharing it. You\u0026rsquo;ve done some really cool things in your career, and it\u0026rsquo;s great to hear some of the details of what you do day to day.\nI want to ask about one thing in more detail. You touched on attachment to the mission and how a startup relates to your current skills, but if someone is looking to make the leap as you did, what should they look for when joining a startup?\nFinding a good startup # James: If you could run the clock back, what would you look for now that might increase the odds of it being a good experience?\nNan: That\u0026rsquo;s a great question. I\u0026rsquo;ve started doing this much more: interviewing the startup or business that\u0026rsquo;s interviewing me. People should spend the vast majority of their time figuring out whether this is the right company for them to join, above anything else. It needs to be aligned; otherwise, you\u0026rsquo;re not going to be excited about coming to work every day, especially when things get difficult.\nI would ask certain questions before joining a startup. You can do some desktop research, but you should test the rigour of the business model in particular. Is it a big market? What does the team look like? Are they strong executors? Is the team diverse? Are they creative? Are they good operators? Diversity is super-important.\nIn my experience, I\u0026rsquo;ve optimised for companies operating in really big, growing markets. Online travel is huge. Pets are a $15 billion market in Australia alone. In the retail-investing market that Simply Wall St is tackling, there are about 300 or 400 million retail investors worldwide. Those are huge, growing markets. More people are entering them, taking note of them and paying for services and goods in them.\nI also try to get a sense of how the product was doing before it launched. Before an interview, I do the desktop research I mentioned and dive into customer feedback, whether on Trustpilot or in Google reviews. That gives me a sense of whether the feedback shows that the product is solving a real customer pain point, or whether a problem has been invented because it sounds cool but doesn\u0026rsquo;t make for a sustainable business.\nAnother thing I\u0026rsquo;ve noticed that drives me crazy is the amount of marketing around fundraising. As somebody entering a startup, you might get enamoured with the size of its fundraising. Having been in a startup, however, I know that fundraising is not an indication of successful product–market fit, a successful commercial model or a great customer experience, so it is one metric I definitely ignore.\nYou see many companies saying, “Wow, we\u0026rsquo;ve raised $100 million. We\u0026rsquo;ve raised $150 million.” Then you see them in the news saying, “We haven\u0026rsquo;t met our revenue targets or some of the other metrics we planned to hit, so we\u0026rsquo;re letting go of 15 to 20 per cent of the workforce.” This is happening a lot now. Even yesterday, I saw a local news story about a company letting go of 16 per cent of its workforce after it had just raised $125 million in a round led by the Atlassian founders. It\u0026rsquo;s important to distinguish fundraising from business success.\nThere may be little or no information because startups are private companies. By the time I get to the interview, I ask my interviewers point-blank about these topics. I\u0026rsquo;ve asked, “What are your actual challenges? Is activation the issue? Is it acquiring customers? Is it retaining customers?” I really dig into whatever information they can give me. If they try to gloss over it, I think something is suspect. It\u0026rsquo;s important to dig into that information and not be afraid. Just because they\u0026rsquo;re interviewing you doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean you can\u0026rsquo;t interview them back. It\u0026rsquo;s a two-way process.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve been an angel investor, and I\u0026rsquo;m also an operator in startups and scale-ups. I focus most of my attention on the founding and executive team because, in early-stage businesses, revenue and certain other metrics might not be ascertainable. I tend to look at whether the founders are the right people to build the product in this market. Are they customers themselves? Do they know the customer well, or are they just doing it for bragging rights?\nDo they have passion that can be sustained for decades? Building a startup is tiring; there are more bad days than good days. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to have great, big, bold ambitions to change the world and help the customer. The founders can\u0026rsquo;t just optimise for the financial return and think, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to be a multimillionaire out of this.” They must deeply love what they\u0026rsquo;re doing. Do they care beyond the product? Do they care about people and about building a generational business that will transcend time and have long-lasting impacts for its customers? That\u0026rsquo;s important to distil.\nOne red flag is if they cover up the challenges and problems I\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned. I would counter by asking, “What area of the business do you think you can improve?” Look at whether their response shows humility, real ownership of the problems and an acknowledgement that there\u0026rsquo;s work to do. That shows they\u0026rsquo;re grounded in reality and understand that everyone needs to come together to solve those problems, instead of glossing over them until everything blows up.\nFinally, is this a team I can and want to learn from? Even though a founder or CEO has different skills from you, there are important meta-skills beyond the technical and other hard skills. You can learn just by observing how they communicate, prioritise and handle stress. That\u0026rsquo;s incredibly powerful. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to feel like the smartest person in the room when you\u0026rsquo;re with the team or its founders. If you are, you\u0026rsquo;re not going to learn anything, so I would avoid businesses like that as well.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really great. As you said, if a company is going well and has things to share, its people will be more open to sharing them. If things aren\u0026rsquo;t going well, perhaps they won\u0026rsquo;t be. Even without getting a direct response, you can still get an idea of what\u0026rsquo;s happening.\nThere are many useful suggestions there that I hadn\u0026rsquo;t considered, such as looking up reviews to see what people actually think. Your point about funding is also interesting because there is so much media coverage of capital raises. It\u0026rsquo;s easy to think, “They raised lots of money, so they must be a good company,” and disregard the things you mentioned: are customers having a good experience with this product, and are the founders going to stay in it for the long haul? I like that a lot. I\u0026rsquo;m definitely going to use some of those tips.\nNan: And if all else fails, watch a lot of true crime. You get really good at investigating.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s amazing. You mentioned wanting to be in a team that will help you grow, learn and develop, where you don\u0026rsquo;t feel like the smartest person in the room. I feel this is something you do really well. You\u0026rsquo;ve done plenty of learning outside work.\nLearning and Career Progression # James: You completed a Master of Finance and different VC programs, including a few almost bootcamp-style training programs. How do you think about developing your skills, both in and outside your role? How have you used those external programs, as well as your current roles, to progress?\nNan: University can only teach you so much. The real lessons start when you enter the workforce and begin interacting with customers, different functions and your team. It\u0026rsquo;s about being open, deeply curious and understanding why we do what we do.\nIf there\u0026rsquo;s any skill I would suggest cultivating, it\u0026rsquo;s curiosity. It encourages learning and the exchange of ideas. It helps us communicate better with one another in our teams, builds deeper connection and empathy for what a teammate or another function is doing, and fuels innovation. When we\u0026rsquo;re curious, we look at tough problems more creatively and sit with them until we deeply understand why they\u0026rsquo;re so challenging.\nIn my case, I wanted to learn more about product management and growth. At Simply Wall St, for example, I interacted a lot with the people developing those strategies and building those teams, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t have any depth of understanding beyond what I\u0026rsquo;d read online. I didn\u0026rsquo;t want that superficial understanding, so I invested much more time in learning from others. I set up coffee catch-ups with people to understand what they do, why it has an impact on the business and why it\u0026rsquo;s so important, and asked them to break it down for me.\nI also invested my own time after hours in training. I started doing Reforge courses, which are a great way to deepen your understanding of product and growth. I learnt how product managers do their jobs, how strategies are set at that level and even how they interview their users. From a growth perspective, I learnt how to build a growth model in a tech business and think about pricing and monetisation. These are some of the many elements that make up growth, which is deeply complicated because it\u0026rsquo;s a newer area and very different from traditional marketing channels.\nFor me, it was about investing a lot of time in levelling up: reading, subscribing to newsletters and following people on Twitter to learn. I was deeply curious and wanted to understand why things worked—not because I wanted to do those jobs, but because it helped me build greater empathy and understanding. I was on the leadership team, supporting these teams in growing, building and defining strategies. I needed that understanding; otherwise, I would add no value.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting that you mentioned aligning the startup or company you join with a personal pain point, something you\u0026rsquo;re interested in or a product you already use. That really helps with curiosity. If it addresses one of your pain points, you\u0026rsquo;re interested in it and you also work there, you\u0026rsquo;re much more likely to stay interested than if your pain points and workplace are completely unrelated. You have better odds of being interested if you work somewhere relevant to you. One hundred per cent.\nMistakes young people make # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s continue. We only have a little time left, so I want to touch on your career more broadly rather than on the day-to-day, and ask for some career advice. I\u0026rsquo;m sure you\u0026rsquo;ve seen many junior marketers, growth people, product people and others come through the companies where you\u0026rsquo;ve worked. What mistakes do you see them make? Is there anything you wish you could tell everyone starting their career not to do?\nNan: I\u0026rsquo;ve often received the same career advice from parents or, respectfully, older people: “You\u0026rsquo;ve got to know your worth when going for a role.” When they talk about worth, they mean your compensation—your total compensation. I understand that it comes from a good place and is about ensuring that you and others value your time.\nThe biggest mistake I see people make, however, especially when moving from a corporate job into a startup or scale-up, is trying to optimise their salary. Early in your career, you should definitely optimise for learning over earning a high salary, and over the role title as well. I strongly believe that if you invest in learning first, you\u0026rsquo;ll develop a highly sought-after skill set. That translates into a valuable role, with a high salary ultimately being a by-product.\nIn my experience recruiting and interviewing candidates, this comes up at the offer stage, especially with people who have two to four years\u0026rsquo; experience and have come from large corporates. They think they should therefore be earning even more. They may want another $5,000 to $10,000, which is totally immaterial after tax, or they want a particular title in a startup because the role they\u0026rsquo;re going for isn\u0026rsquo;t sexy enough.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all immaterial because you\u0026rsquo;re forgoing a valuable, steep learning curve; the immense amount of ownership you get from day one; and the conviction you build in yourself through repeated opportunities to be tested, fail, learn, pick yourself up and become stronger. You don\u0026rsquo;t get those opportunities at a larger organisation because there\u0026rsquo;s so much cushioning and protection.\nI would caution people to think carefully about why they\u0026rsquo;re going for a startup role and not optimise for earnings. Startups and scale-ups are resource-constrained, so the money might not be in the budget. You might miss an opportunity you can\u0026rsquo;t get back—one that many people are vying to get into.\nJames: Today, startups are the new sexy thing to do, so people want a nice title and things like that. I completely agree that learning is particularly important when you\u0026rsquo;re young. As you said, the learning and knowledge you gain will lead to a high salary sometime in the future; you don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily need it right now. In fact, choosing a high salary when you\u0026rsquo;re young might limit your growth in some cases, where you\u0026rsquo;re being overpaid to do nothing. It\u0026rsquo;s important for people to recognise that.\nNan\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s do one more. This is a question I ask all our guests: Nan, if you could rewind the clock to when you were just graduating from university and heading out into the world, knowing everything you know now, is there anything you would do differently? Is there any advice you wish you\u0026rsquo;d known then?\nNan: I\u0026rsquo;ve definitely put my foot in it a lot and made many mistakes, and I\u0026rsquo;m really grateful for that. Don\u0026rsquo;t shy away from failure—absolutely not. Having said that, you can at least mitigate its impact. Being hit constantly can be very demoralising to your confidence, and it often takes time to pick yourself up. You need to realise that things aren\u0026rsquo;t personal; this is just the way of the world. You don\u0026rsquo;t have the cushioning and protection of university any more.\nI wish I\u0026rsquo;d developed greater self-awareness about my behaviours, what I\u0026rsquo;m really good at and what I\u0026rsquo;m terrible at. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d been more open-minded about unlearning the behaviours that held me back from growing. Sometimes that can be humbling and take you a few steps back, but I think that\u0026rsquo;s okay.\nThe way university is set up, and the way society pits people against one another through competition, gets into your head and makes you want to keep moving forward. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d taken a step back to address some of those areas.\nFor example, one thing I struggled with was going from being a strong individual contributor to a people leader. It\u0026rsquo;s a completely different job, requiring new abilities and a totally new set of problems, muscles, skills and tools. I had to make significant changes. Instead of going deep into my work, being myopic and becoming very good at executing tasks or building a particular skill set, I had to look at the bigger picture and understand and communicate the context in which the team operates.\nI went from being a master of my craft to training others to be good at their jobs, because that\u0026rsquo;s when you\u0026rsquo;re successful: when you\u0026rsquo;ve been able to help others. I went from solving problems with the tools and resources I had to allocating resources and influencing others, which became more important in this role. I had to move from a functional mindset—thinking about my function and what\u0026rsquo;s required to do the job really well—to a company mindset focused on what\u0026rsquo;s good for the business.\nYou often have to unlearn many things. It takes time because you\u0026rsquo;re like a computer: you\u0026rsquo;re programmed a certain way by society, external factors and internal drivers. I sought a lot of help, both externally and internally. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t afraid to tell people, “I don\u0026rsquo;t know how to do this, and I need to get better at it. How do I do that?” Some people might see that vulnerability as weakness, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t. It\u0026rsquo;s so powerful to be vulnerable because a weight lifts off you. You think, “Great, I can learn without any judgement,” and they\u0026rsquo;re probably thinking exactly the same thing.\nI think you should focus on unlearning and becoming more self-aware—on your internal engineering and make-up. Spend much more time knowing yourself than knowing the external business; that can come second. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d done much more of that. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d worked out what actually motivated me, rather than what my parents wanted me to do.\nWhen you graduate, everyone goes into an investment bank, a Big Four firm or a consulting firm, and that\u0026rsquo;s treated as a mark of success when it really isn\u0026rsquo;t. There are alternative career paths. Because I\u0026rsquo;d been so conditioned, I thought success only came through that path. It didn\u0026rsquo;t bring me any joy, and that\u0026rsquo;s probably why I changed so many times: I became deeply frustrated but hadn\u0026rsquo;t spent enough time asking myself why.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t spend enough time getting to know myself, my creative side or the problems I\u0026rsquo;m drawn to. Now I\u0026rsquo;m freer, more open and very honest about it because I don\u0026rsquo;t want to keep switching. I want to solve a problem I\u0026rsquo;m deeply passionate about and love working on day in, day out.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s so important. It\u0026rsquo;s great to see you go on that self-development journey, learning more about yourself and building self-awareness. I completely agree. We\u0026rsquo;re all somewhere, trying to chase something. It\u0026rsquo;s cool that you can look back now and see how far you\u0026rsquo;ve come. You\u0026rsquo;re doing some really amazing things, and we\u0026rsquo;re very fortunate to be able to hear your wisdom. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.\nWe might wrap it up there. Before we head off, where can people find out more about you and connect with you after listening? Is there anywhere you\u0026rsquo;d like to send them?\nNan: I\u0026rsquo;m on Twitter and Instagram, but that\u0026rsquo;s more for my travel and food photos. I\u0026rsquo;m also on LinkedIn, so do connect with me there. I\u0026rsquo;m always happy to connect with people, including at startup meets. I\u0026rsquo;m deeply passionate about the community and investing, so if you want career advice—I don\u0026rsquo;t know why you\u0026rsquo;d come to me—or want to hear about my mistakes or war stories, I\u0026rsquo;m happy to share them. LinkedIn is the best place to catch me.\nJames: Thank you so much again for coming on the show, Nan. It\u0026rsquo;s been really interesting and insightful to hear your thoughts and your journey. Thank you for sharing it with us, and we\u0026rsquo;ll catch you around.\nNan: Thanks, James, for the insightful questions. I feel like Baby Yoda.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to graduatetheory.com and subscribe. You can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox. Thanks so much for listening today, and we look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 51\n","date":"10 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/51-nan-meka-choosing-startup-thats-right/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 51\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Nan Meka | On Choosing a Startup That's Right for You","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → When I first started Graduate Theory, I was excited to learn more about professional life and to meet some fantastic people along the way.\nToday marks episode 50 of Graduate Theory.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a special moment. One episode per week for 50 weeks.\nI\u0026rsquo;m proud of this effort, but I\u0026rsquo;m even more proud that this body of knowledge exists in the public domain, enhancing careers throughout Australia.\nThis week, you\u0026rsquo;ll hear the second part of the compilation series of the Graduate Theory guests answering: \u0026ldquo;What is some advice you\u0026rsquo;d give yourself if you were starting your career again today?\u0026rdquo;\nSome of my favourites:\nMykel Dixon Lacey Filipich Robby Wade Thanks again. I hope you enjoy.\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Intro\n01:16 26 - Abhi Maran\n03:43 27 - Kerry Callenbach\n05:54 29 - Lacey Filipich\n13:36 30 - Yaniv Bernstein\n16:25 31 - Gene Rice\n20:00 34 - Robby Wade\n22:02 35 - Cheran Ketheesuran\n26:09 36 - Max Marchione\n28:50 38 - Juliana Owen\n31:41 39 - Elizabeth Knight\n33:45 40 - Elaha Gurgani\n35:33 41 - Gabriel Guedes\n38:12 43 - Caleb Maru\n39:21 44 - Lisa Leong\n40:46 45 - Brendan Humphreys\n42:42 46 - Mykel Dixon\n48:05 47 - Dave Lourdes\n53:53 Conclusion\n","date":"3 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/50-graduate-theory-compilation-part-two/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → When I first started Graduate Theory, I was excited to learn more about professional life and to meet some fantastic people along the way.\n","title":"Graduate Theory Compilation - Part Two","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 50\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to episode 50 of Graduate Theory. What a fantastic milestone: 50 episodes. It\u0026rsquo;s been a fantastic journey so far, so thanks so much for tuning in.\nToday\u0026rsquo;s episode is part two of this miniseries recapping all the episodes we\u0026rsquo;ve done. Just like the last episode, we\u0026rsquo;re looking at episodes 26 to 48. In each of these episodes, I asked the guest, “What advice would you give yourself if you were finishing university and starting your career today?” This episode is a compilation of responses from across those episodes.\nSome of the answers here are incredible, and it\u0026rsquo;s really cool to compile them in such a nice way. I hope you enjoy this one. If you want to see more and get involved further, subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter via the first link in the description. You\u0026rsquo;ll get an email update whenever something happens. In fact, there have been some interesting developments in the last few days, so I encourage you to subscribe to the email list to hear more about that.\nWithout further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get started.\n26 - Abhi Maran # James: If you had to wind back the clock to when you were just finishing uni and starting in the world of work, what do you know now that you wish you knew at that stage?\nAbhi: I think I\u0026rsquo;d probably experiment a lot more with my career. What I should have done back then was talk to a lot of people in the ecosystem and figure out ways to get involved. Even if it didn\u0026rsquo;t seem like I\u0026rsquo;d be able to get involved from the outside, I should have been a bit more proactive.\nI was daunted by how experienced everyone seemed and wondered who would talk to me. But they probably would have been kind enough to do so, and I should have tried.\nI think there are a lot more opportunities for experimentation, and I say this from a privileged point of view as well. Some uni students are very privileged because they still live at home. They don\u0026rsquo;t have to pay rent or pay for food.\nThose students can take riskier options in their careers. They can work at different startups for two- or three-month periods and intern at different places without worrying about securing a graduate job. But other people aren\u0026rsquo;t as fortunate or privileged.\nFor them, it\u0026rsquo;s important to secure a graduate job initially and then use it to leverage other opportunities. I think this is becoming more accepted now because companies are desperate for good talent.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re able to negotiate your start date with them. Push your graduate start date back six months or a year. In that time, experiment with working for a startup or doing something you\u0026rsquo;ve always wanted to do. If that\u0026rsquo;s travelling all over the world, go and do that. If that\u0026rsquo;s starting your own business, go and do that. You\u0026rsquo;ve got some security in that graduate job, and you can always bring the start date forward. I\u0026rsquo;m fairly certain that, if you just talk to people, they\u0026rsquo;re willing to help you as much as possible.\nI should probably have talked to people and experimented much earlier in my career.\n27 - Kerry Callenbach # James: One question I ask every guest is: if you had to restart and go back to when you were first starting out, what would you do differently or tell yourself? Given your experience with so many graduates, you can take this in a different direction if you\u0026rsquo;d like.\nKerry: I know this because I\u0026rsquo;ve changed careers myself multiple times. It can feel really overwhelming when you start something. Our education system is designed to go: primary school, high school, university, job. If you don\u0026rsquo;t follow that pathway, you think, “I must have done something wrong,” or, “I haven\u0026rsquo;t succeeded to the point that I should have.”\nI experienced that myself. I finished my sport, went into nursing and realised I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to do nursing. What should I do? You can have a bit of an identity crisis around that.\nMy advice would be: it is okay not to know what you want to do. It is totally okay. Your life is not over; your life is just beginning. You\u0026rsquo;re simply at a fork in the road where you need to choose. Be okay if you don\u0026rsquo;t know.\nAlso, if you go into a role or company and it doesn\u0026rsquo;t feel right—if you\u0026rsquo;re not being your best self—don\u0026rsquo;t stay. If you\u0026rsquo;re giving eight, nine or sometimes 10 hours of your life to a company, you want to enjoy being there. You want to say, “I\u0026rsquo;m really excited to get up for work today. I\u0026rsquo;m excited to spend time with my colleagues.”\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t feel like that, take a moment to pause and ask, “Why not? Where am I not feeling fulfilled? Is there something about the role? Is there something about the way their culture works?” If you don\u0026rsquo;t like it, don\u0026rsquo;t stay. It\u0026rsquo;s too many hours of your life to spend somewhere you\u0026rsquo;re not getting fulfilment.\n29 - Lacey Filipich # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question for you today, Lacey. Obviously, Graduate Theory is a career-focused podcast. If you had to restart your career and wind back to when you first started working, is there anything you would approach differently in your career progression or finances, knowing what you know now?\nLacey: There\u0026rsquo;s one small financial thing I didn\u0026rsquo;t understand as a graduate that now makes me think, “Shoot, I should have done something about that.”\nWhen I was working for Western Mining, BHP took us over. That was in my second year as a graduate. We had been given options with Western Mining, and I didn\u0026rsquo;t understand what options meant, so I didn\u0026rsquo;t exercise them. Now that I understand options, I think, “Ah, that\u0026rsquo;s $8,000 I could have had.”\nWhen something financial happens at work—perhaps they have a share plan or talk about salary sacrificing or superannuation matching—take the time to get support if you don\u0026rsquo;t understand it so you can make a good decision. If you get an offer from work, it\u0026rsquo;s important to understand whether it\u0026rsquo;s right for you and take the opportunities you can. Share and options plans are often designed to keep you with the company, but they\u0026rsquo;re a leg-up. They are an advantage. If you sign without understanding them or ignore them because they\u0026rsquo;re too hard, you can give up a lot. My advice is to take the time to learn.\nThe other thing I would encourage people to do is something I hadn\u0026rsquo;t thought about at the time. You can tell from our discussion that I\u0026rsquo;m quite forthright and will fight for what\u0026rsquo;s right for me.\nIn my second year as a graduate, I was one of seven graduates, two of whom were female. The five men and we two women were at a site with 10 women out of 300 employees in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia. That was the reality of going into mining in a remote location back then.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s very different now. The next site I went to was 20 per cent female, compared with 10 women out of 300 employees. The first situation wasn\u0026rsquo;t normal, but when you\u0026rsquo;re the only woman on a site, or one of a few, you often get the women\u0026rsquo;s jobs.\nIn this case, during the 18 months I\u0026rsquo;d been there, my general manager had lost five executive assistants. That\u0026rsquo;s not normal. Clearly, it was a difficult role, but they couldn\u0026rsquo;t find someone and really needed someone. They asked me to fill in, and I had a massive tantrum. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t throwing my fists around, but I went into my boss\u0026rsquo;s office and said, “You\u0026rsquo;re asking me to do this because I\u0026rsquo;m a woman, and I\u0026rsquo;m not happy about that. There are five other graduates who are male. Any of them could do that role. Why did you pick me?”\nI had a real bee in my bonnet about this. We always give women the job of taking notes, and they always have to get the frigging tea and all that stuff. It was a real issue I\u0026rsquo;d heard so much about, and I was very sensitive to it.\nI overreacted, but it was a fair call. My boss said, “That\u0026rsquo;s a fair thing for you to say because this does happen. But I promise you, Lacey, that\u0026rsquo;s not why you were chosen. Can you take my word for it that you\u0026rsquo;re going to learn something really important and that you want to take this role?”\nI thought, “Okay, fine.” I really liked the boss; JP was fantastic. I said, “All right, fine, I\u0026rsquo;ll do it. But I\u0026rsquo;m not happy that you\u0026rsquo;ve picked me because I\u0026rsquo;m a girl.” He said, “I\u0026rsquo;m not picking you because you\u0026rsquo;re a girl. Stop it.” I said, “Okay, fine.”\nIt turned out that BHP was looking to buy Western Mining. I got to be part of the war room set up for the merger and acquisition. I was in discussions with the executive team and heard how they\u0026rsquo;d pitch the company and persuade another company to buy them. I learnt about M\u0026amp;A.\nLearning that at 22 is unusual for a graduate engineer who has just come off the furnace in a scruffy, dirt-covered outfit. I was in these meetings because I could make graphs and type. They needed that. Hearing those conversations, understanding how the war room was set up and learning about the process were some of the most invaluable experiences I got in that graduate program. You couldn\u0026rsquo;t have planned it.\nMy boss had noted that I wanted to be a CEO because I\u0026rsquo;d told him. He had asked, “Where do you want to go eventually?” and I said, “I\u0026rsquo;d like to be a CEO eventually, so I want to do management stuff.” He put me in the role so I could get this amazing experience, because I was the graduate who\u0026rsquo;d said she was interested in it.\nHe was doing the right thing by me. The fact that I was female was neither here nor there. I\u0026rsquo;m lucky that, when I didn\u0026rsquo;t listen to him, he didn\u0026rsquo;t say, “Fine, I\u0026rsquo;ll give it to someone else,” just to spite me. I\u0026rsquo;m very lucky that he understood my response. That\u0026rsquo;s the difference between having a good boss and a bad boss.\nWhat did I learn from that? Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll think something happened for a reason when it didn\u0026rsquo;t. I had a bee in my bonnet. I looked at everything and thought, “They\u0026rsquo;re asking me to do that because I\u0026rsquo;m a girl. I\u0026rsquo;m refusing on principle because I\u0026rsquo;m a feminist, and thou shalt not make me.” That\u0026rsquo;s not always the case; it\u0026rsquo;s just your frame of reference. You need to be willing to listen when people tell you you\u0026rsquo;re wrong. Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll be right, and sometimes you won\u0026rsquo;t. I think that\u0026rsquo;s the most important thing.\nThe second thing I learnt from this experience, which has carried me through my whole career, is to pick your boss wisely. No one will have a bigger impact on how happy you are at work than your boss. The end. I reckon 80 per cent of your satisfaction at work comes from whether you have a good boss or a not-so-good boss.\nYou have to have had not-so-good bosses to understand what a good boss is, I think. I\u0026rsquo;ve had only a couple of bad ones in my time. I\u0026rsquo;ve been very lucky and had fantastic bosses, but I became very choosy early on about who I\u0026rsquo;d work for.\nWhen I was younger, there were times when I worked for—I\u0026rsquo;m going to be blunt—a bad boss. He was shocking and shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been allowed to manage people. Everything was cookie-cutter, with no consideration of anyone\u0026rsquo;s personal views, circumstances or preferences. It was just, “No, this is how we do it. You will do it this way,” or, “We never give people that high mark. Everybody gets an average.” He shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been allowed to manage people.\nRecognise that that\u0026rsquo;s not necessarily you; it\u0026rsquo;s not your fault. When you\u0026rsquo;re new in the workplace, you don\u0026rsquo;t understand whether you\u0026rsquo;re not meeting expectations or have just been lumped with a bad boss. Sometimes it\u0026rsquo;s a little of both, so you have to be honest with yourself. But if you have a bad boss, accept that they\u0026rsquo;re not right for you. Maybe they\u0026rsquo;re good for other people, but they\u0026rsquo;re not right for you, so become choosy.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s something I learnt from my experience in my youth: I\u0026rsquo;ve got to be really picky about who I work for. Don\u0026rsquo;t work for arseholes. The end.\n30 - Yaniv Bernstein # James: If you could rewind the clock to when you were first starting work, knowing what you know now, is there any advice you\u0026rsquo;d give yourself or anything you\u0026rsquo;d do differently?\nYaniv: I think I\u0026rsquo;d back myself more and be more entrepreneurial. I suspect there\u0026rsquo;s a generational element to this. A couple of generations back, there was a lifetime-employment model. My generation had much more mobility in people\u0026rsquo;s careers, but they still tended to follow a path of full-time jobs from one to another. Now I\u0026rsquo;m seeing the kinds of communities you\u0026rsquo;re serving, where people are really trying to be the architects of their own careers.\nWhen I say entrepreneurialism, some of the time that means starting your own business. It might mean starting a side hustle or podcast, or building a personal brand. But it also means taking more active control of your career and not being as passive as saying, “I\u0026rsquo;ve got my job now. I need to work towards my next promotion,” or whatnot. It\u0026rsquo;s about being the architect of your own career and understanding, of course, that the future is very difficult to predict, but having a set of goals and principles you proactively set and then trying to design your career around them.\nI\u0026rsquo;m seeing much more of that with the current generation of graduates and early-career people. I\u0026rsquo;m in awe of that and a bit envious. I think, “If I\u0026rsquo;d been more intentional in designing my career, where could I have got to? Could I have got to where I am earlier?” That\u0026rsquo;s the advice I\u0026rsquo;d give myself: be intentional in planning a career.\nThe tools available these days are incredible. They range from things like this podcast and communities like Earlywork to the vast number of resources online, the ability to start side hustles fairly easily and the availability of capital for early-stage startups. There\u0026rsquo;s a lot around now that didn\u0026rsquo;t used to exist. If I were starting now, I\u0026rsquo;d hope to make more use of it and be intentional and mindful in designing my career.\n31 - Gene Rice # James: If you could rewind the clock and go back to when you\u0026rsquo;d just finished university and were going out into the world, knowing what you know now and all the advice you\u0026rsquo;ve written, what would you do differently? What advice would you give yourself in that situation?\nGene: It\u0026rsquo;s funny, James. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether I\u0026rsquo;ve shared this with you, but my career was very different. I started by owning rock-and-roll clubs in New York. I owned two clubs that booked only original music and had bands such as the Ramones, the Stray Cats, Joan Jett, Bo Diddley and Richie Havens.\nI left that business because the first club was extremely successful, the second was a failure, and my wife would marry me only if I got out of that business. I then went into corporate America and worked for a division of Alcatel, a French company and an international Fortune 100 firm.\nIn seven years, I was promoted five times. I went from sales representative to sales manager, general manager and district manager. My last job was heading all East Coast operations, with over a thousand people reporting to me. I left that job, even though I was making a heck of a lot of money, for one reason.\nI was never home at night. I travelled a great deal, we had a young family and I wanted some work–life balance. I went into executive search because I\u0026rsquo;d used search firms myself. I knew I could bring some value to it, but I never knew what I would find. I did it because I could be home at night.\nIt became extremely successful very quickly. What I would do differently relates to the purpose I found in executive search. Even when my firm became one of the largest retained search firms in the world, I never stopped leading searches because I found purpose in talking to executives and clients and putting a good match together.\nHalf the people I placed in C-level jobs had to pick up their families and move from one city to another for the role. I felt that, if I was going to move this person\u0026rsquo;s family, I had to make sure it was a good match.\nI found purpose in that. I had passion and was excited. I woke up in the morning and couldn\u0026rsquo;t wait to go to work. If I could go back, I think I would try to identify that passion and purpose early on and be a little more strategic in looking for it.\nI was very lucky and fortunate; many other people are not. The other thing is that every financial reward I receive from this book will be donated directly to the charity my wife and I started, the Plant a Seed Inspire a Dream Foundation, to help more children pursue their passions.\nI\u0026rsquo;m a big believer in pursuing your passions and finding purpose in your life. If you can find that and make a career by working out how to pursue those things, you\u0026rsquo;ll be healthier, happier and smile more. That\u0026rsquo;s the message I want to leave your audience with.\n34 - Robby Wade # James: If you were looking at the Robby who\u0026rsquo;s just finished university and is about to go out into the world and tackle his job, what advice would you give him, knowing what you know now and all the experiences you\u0026rsquo;ve had?\nRobby Wade: Easy: read and run every day. If you read books every day and run every day, I guarantee your life will change forever. If you just do those two things, even if you start with a kilometre and a page, those two things are unique in their capacity.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll be brief. Reading gives you mentors, knowledge and understanding; it levels up your education. Running gets you outside, which is important for your circadian rhythm and mental wellbeing.\nWhen you run through space and your eyes move, it relaxes you and makes you calm. Cardiovascular exercise can promote neurogenesis in your hippocampus, giving you a “fluffy” hippocampus and improving your memory.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re running every day, your memory is going to be better. If your memory is better, you\u0026rsquo;re going to be learning more. If you\u0026rsquo;re learning more, you\u0026rsquo;re very likely going to be fit and educated. It\u0026rsquo;s pretty hard for your life to go south if you just focus on those two things.\nEveryone can give you all these weird anecdotes, statements and those kinds of things, but practically, try to read and run at least once a day. I think your life would transform from there. You\u0026rsquo;ll learn what you need to do next just by doing those two things.\n35 - Cheran Ketheesuran # James: If you could go back to when you were first starting university and beginning this journey of discovering the different opportunities awaiting you, what advice would you give to someone who\u0026rsquo;s now just starting their journey?\nCheran: I\u0026rsquo;ve always had three things—I have to keep it very structured as a future consultant.\nThe first one would be: do things your own way. I\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned the phrase “hedonic treadmill” a few times now, but it\u0026rsquo;s very easy—and I know I impose this on others—to see other people\u0026rsquo;s LinkedIn profiles and say, “By doing this, they got here. By doing that, they got there.” Be conscious that there are a million ways to get where you want to be. Be driven enough to pursue goals. If you\u0026rsquo;re pursuing roles, titles or whatever it is, that\u0026rsquo;s fine, but don\u0026rsquo;t be so driven that you forget to stop and smell the roses on the way.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t forget the reasons you\u0026rsquo;ve taken that journey. I\u0026rsquo;m not ending up in banking, but I\u0026rsquo;m still glad I spent one and a half years in banking because it taught me a whole set of skills. If I were so focused on the outcome, I\u0026rsquo;d think that time was a waste, which it certainly wasn\u0026rsquo;t. Do things your way.\nSecond: nobody cares. That sounds rather flippant. What I mean is that genuinely, nobody cares about so many of the failures we have on a daily basis. I remember seeing this visualisation once. If you imagine two concentric circles—one circle with a small circle in the middle—that small circle is how much other people think about you, and all the space around it is how much you think about other people thinking about you.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s just the reality. Literally nobody cares. Everyone has their own issues and problems to sort through. It\u0026rsquo;s very liberating once you realise that because, all of a sudden, you\u0026rsquo;re focused on your own happiness and your personal pursuit of your goals. That\u0026rsquo;s all you need in life. Life is already tough enough without worrying about what other people think, the impact of not getting X or not being at a certain stage in life. It\u0026rsquo;s especially easy to fall into that mental trap when you surround yourself with students and cohorts from high-achieving academic backgrounds, as at the universities you and I have attended.\nThe last thing I would say is that life will generally be okay. This links back to “nobody cares”. I\u0026rsquo;ve said this a lot. It\u0026rsquo;s graduate season at the moment. A lot of students in the years below, including some students I tutor at university, have been really stressed and worried about applications.\nRemember that everybody peaks at a certain time, and it won\u0026rsquo;t be 22 for everybody. It would be rather sad if you peaked at 22. The vast majority of your listeners and the people in this community have lived in a time better than any before it.\nSecond, generally, if you work hard enough and don\u0026rsquo;t leave everything in your life to luck, you\u0026rsquo;ll be okay. You\u0026rsquo;ll get where you want to go eventually. There\u0026rsquo;s no rush to reach certain goals. Just because the vast majority of people seem to reach goals within a certain period doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean you have to do the same. Countless people—Reid Hoffman is a prime example—reached their peak successes and their first successes in their forties and fifties.\nThose would be my three pieces of advice: do things your own way, nobody cares and it\u0026rsquo;ll all be okay, James. It\u0026rsquo;ll all be okay.\n36 - Max Marchione # James: You\u0026rsquo;re currently at university, but let\u0026rsquo;s rewind to when you\u0026rsquo;d just left school and were starting university. Knowing what you know now, and considering everything you\u0026rsquo;ve done and experienced, what advice would you give your younger self?\nMax: Be more courageous, take more risks, break the rules and treat university as internships. In other words, use that time to do internships. Then be even more courageous. That\u0026rsquo;s the advice I\u0026rsquo;d give myself.\nJames: The idea of courage is interesting. I can certainly become better at applying it, as I think many of us can.\nMax: I still think it\u0026rsquo;s a weakness of mine. I don\u0026rsquo;t take enough risks and could be more courageous. It\u0026rsquo;s iterative: the more you put yourself out there and do courageous things, the more you build a thick skin. Eventually, it no longer feels courageous; it simply feels normal.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s another reason I love Next Chapter. Being around the people there makes things that once seemed courageous feel normal. They continue to raise the bar for what\u0026rsquo;s normal.\nTo return to independent thought, our innate state as humans is to copy others. If you put two babies in a room with a thousand toys, they\u0026rsquo;ll fight over one toy. Given that information, I want to be around people or in a community where copying others leads me to a very good place.\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s true of courage as well. If you\u0026rsquo;re around people who raise the bar on ambition, courage and proactivity, even starting a podcast—as you have—becomes normal. About a third of the community have their own podcasts. Starting one is courageous: it\u0026rsquo;s a bold move that puts you out into the world.\nAs a final piece of advice, be deliberate about finding people who lift you up. Join communities or collectives that create a culture in which exceptional is normal.\n38 - Juliana Owen # James: A lot of the audience are graduates or early-career people looking to start their careers in the right manner. Thinking about your journey, if you could wind back the clock to when you first graduated from uni and went out into the world of work, knowing what you know now and all the things you teach, what advice would you give yourself?\nJuliana: Going back to my first point, look for someone who will guide you and give you the full picture, because it\u0026rsquo;s so much easier when you know where you\u0026rsquo;re going. I say this because I\u0026rsquo;ve gone through that process myself here in Australia. I tried a couple of times to get into the market with the knowledge I had back in the day. I was 23 or 24 years old, and I wasn\u0026rsquo;t getting anywhere.\nOnce I hired someone, I said, “Look, this is where I come from. This is the experience I have so far. This is where I want to go, and this is what I would like to achieve. How can I prepare to face the challenge and actually get there?”\n“Okay, we\u0026rsquo;re going to have to work on your CV, cover letter and LinkedIn profile. We\u0026rsquo;re going to have to work on a mock interview. What\u0026rsquo;s your interview style?” The interview is one of the crucial points here. The majority of people think, “Do you have a questionnaire that I can look at, or do you have a video on YouTube?”\nNot really, because the worst thing you can do in an interview process is memorise questions and answers. When you\u0026rsquo;re in an interview, you\u0026rsquo;ll know more or less what they\u0026rsquo;re going to ask you. More than that, you need to build your thought process. You need to learn how to build it because, if the interviewer asks you something outside your preparation, you\u0026rsquo;re going to go blank. You\u0026rsquo;ll just answer whatever comes to mind.\nAfter all the excitement dies down, you\u0026rsquo;ll think, “I shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have answered that. I didn\u0026rsquo;t prepare for that. The question I memorised wasn\u0026rsquo;t asked.” It isn\u0026rsquo;t about memorising; it\u0026rsquo;s about learning how to create credibility through your thought process. How do you build that thought process? How do you tell your story? That also comes through mentorship.\nIf you know what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, good on you. Get yourself ready, go for it and all the best of luck. If you don\u0026rsquo;t know, or if you\u0026rsquo;re in doubt, search for a professional—someone who will clear the road for you so you can drive through and get to your final destination.\n39 - Elizabeth Knight # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s say someone has finished high school and is starting their journey in the big wide world. Reflecting on your own journey, what advice would you give someone going through that right now?\nElizabeth: The first thing that comes to mind is: be emotional, which is kind of strange. When I was younger, I thought it was bad to be passionate in a way. Young people get this bad rap for being too angry and fired up—or the opposite, not caring enough.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important not to worry about perfection when you\u0026rsquo;re young because it\u0026rsquo;s impossible to achieve. Just feel things, act somewhat impulsively and appreciate the good and bad that come with being a young person. You have to go through all of that.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all a really positive thing. That would be my first piece of advice. Secondly, be bold. Again, how far are you willing to go alone? Absolutely don\u0026rsquo;t let anybody else define the path in front of you if you don\u0026rsquo;t want them to. You might have a family or parents who want a particular thing for you and think it\u0026rsquo;s best for you.\nYou might agree with some of those things, and that\u0026rsquo;s totally fine. The key is being able to ask yourself, “Why am I doing this? What\u0026rsquo;s really driving this goal or step for me? Am I going to university because I think I have to, or because it\u0026rsquo;s actually the most purposeful step for me?”\nAsk yourself why and really think about that when you\u0026rsquo;re making choices. Do your best to make those decisions in alignment with who you are, not the rest of the world around you. Honestly, at the end of the day, who cares what they think? You have to live with it; they don\u0026rsquo;t.\nThat would be my advice.\n40 - Elaha Gurgani # James: Think back to when you were finishing uni, perhaps in your last year, about to go out into the world and apply for jobs. Knowing what you know now and everything you\u0026rsquo;ve done, what advice would you give yourself at that stage?\nElaha: I would say: be bold, take risks and don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid of unknown paths. Growing up, society tells us to take a safe, linear path. It lays out a path where, if you do X and Y, you\u0026rsquo;ll get Z, and that\u0026rsquo;s how you\u0026rsquo;ll be successful.\nFor a long time, I chased paths that had been laid out for me, such as management consulting and other roles, because I was afraid of taking risks and following unknown paths. If you take an unknown path, such as a startup or entrepreneurship, you don\u0026rsquo;t know what lies ahead in five or 10 years. It\u0026rsquo;s unknown and very risky.\nLooking back at my younger self as a graduate or university student, I would say: take risks and don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid of the unknown. Once you explore unknown paths that aren\u0026rsquo;t laid out for you, but that you enjoy and are curious about, you\u0026rsquo;ll meet the most interesting people. You\u0026rsquo;ll be challenged and grow so much. The things you\u0026rsquo;ve always wanted—the people, the tribe, the passion, the things you\u0026rsquo;ve always craved—will come to you through those unknown paths. That\u0026rsquo;s where the magic lies. That\u0026rsquo;s where the growth lies. That\u0026rsquo;s what I would tell my younger self.\n41 - Gabriel Guedes # James: If you could go back to Gigi in his final year at uni, when he was about to go out into the world, what advice would you give him now that you\u0026rsquo;ve had all these experiences?\nGabriel: It\u0026rsquo;s hard to say. If that were a serious proposition—if I could go back in time and tell young Gigi something—I would probably pass on the opportunity. You run the risk of saying something that gets misinterpreted over the 10 or 15 years since I was at university.\nPerhaps you end up chasing that thing because you think, “My future self came back just to tell me this one thing, so it must be extremely important.” You might really misinterpret whatever the advice is. I could say, “Everything\u0026rsquo;s going to be all right. Don\u0026rsquo;t worry,” and perhaps young Gigi would take that too literally, do nothing with his life and change its course. Or I could say, “Work harder,” and send him off on the wrong tangent. I would probably pass on the opportunity.\nJames: Fair enough. I guess that reflects how well things are going for you now and how much you\u0026rsquo;re enjoying where your life is. You wouldn\u0026rsquo;t want to mess that up accidentally. What advice would you give people generally—perhaps Australian university students nearing graduation and trying to work out what they want to do with their lives?\nGabriel: I would say that your life isn\u0026rsquo;t going to be decided then. At that stage, many people think, “I\u0026rsquo;m making these big life decisions now.” But in the grand scheme of things, whatever you\u0026rsquo;re doing is probably a commitment of a couple of years, if that. There\u0026rsquo;s so much more to your life and career. Don\u0026rsquo;t overthink these decisions too much, and remember that you can always correct course later if you aren\u0026rsquo;t enjoying what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\n43 - Caleb Maru # James: If you were graduating—or perhaps quitting university early—again now, what advice would you give someone at that stage in their life?\nCaleb: The main thing is to take it easy. You have so much time ahead of you. Your twenties are made for screwing up. You\u0026rsquo;re supposed to screw up as many times as you want in your twenties, and it\u0026rsquo;s cool.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s quite a lot of safety here. If everything goes wrong, you can probably get a job somewhere, or you might have a support network to help you out. Don\u0026rsquo;t worry too much if things don\u0026rsquo;t go well in your twenties. It\u0026rsquo;s meant to be kind of shit, and also really fun.\nI\u0026rsquo;m definitely experiencing that now, where I think, “Why don\u0026rsquo;t I have my shit together in some aspects of my life?” Then I tell myself, “It\u0026rsquo;s cool. It\u0026rsquo;s cool.”\nHave as much fun as you can, do things you enjoy and say yes to as many things as you can that are helpful for you.\n44 - Lisa Leong # James: If someone were graduating from university and heading into the world, what advice would you give them, knowing what you know now and what you\u0026rsquo;ve been through?\nLisa: Never listen to someone who gives you advice without asking questions first. That\u0026rsquo;s my advice. Isn\u0026rsquo;t that a head spin?\nThe other piece is: don\u0026rsquo;t put too much pressure on yourself. I think you find the right path, whatever road you take at a fork. There is a lot of pressure to make the right decision, but it all comes out in the wash at the end of the day.\nIf you make a misstep and accept a position you absolutely hate, tick: well done. You\u0026rsquo;ve learnt what you don\u0026rsquo;t want next time. Take the pressure off; you\u0026rsquo;re okay. If every day is lab day, you\u0026rsquo;ll be fine.\n45 - Brendan Humphreys # James: What advice would you give a recent graduate—especially a young engineer—who wants to become a great engineer?\nBrendan: Join a mature engineering organisation where you can learn from exceptional people. Seek teams with strong engineering cultures and formal or informal mentors who can teach you the craft of software engineering.\nWe deliberately created that culture at Canva, and large companies such as Google, Amazon, Microsoft and Apple also have it. Joining a smaller organisation isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily wrong, but graduates can quickly become the most knowledgeable and experienced person in the room, which is risky. It can work; it\u0026rsquo;s simply a risk. I believe it\u0026rsquo;s better to begin somewhere with mentors who show you what excellence looks like and help you reach it.\n46 - Mykel Dixon # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, Mykel. Graduate Theory is for young people around my age who are early in their careers or perhaps at university. What advice would you give people at this stage who want to grow their careers and, ideally, remain among the two per cent who are still creative geniuses when they\u0026rsquo;re older?\nMykel: You can\u0026rsquo;t let the world get to you. I hope it\u0026rsquo;s changing. I really do. I think it is, but the next 10 years might still be a bit bumpy. We\u0026rsquo;re trying to figure it out. You\u0026rsquo;re going to encounter people who are mean. You\u0026rsquo;ll have people who talk about you behind your back. You\u0026rsquo;ll have people who actively try to withhold information from you, stunt your career or do all these kinds of things. Don\u0026rsquo;t let them stop you.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got to trust yourself and love yourself. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to accept that you came here for a reason, and it\u0026rsquo;s not better, smaller, grander or lesser than anyone else\u0026rsquo;s. If you\u0026rsquo;re here, you\u0026rsquo;re meant to be here. You have a voice and something you\u0026rsquo;re supposed to contribute to this planet. That could be your neighbours or your family. It could be your colleagues or customers. You could be another Steve Jobs, or another Barry who lives in the suburbs and is just a radical dude who says g\u0026rsquo;day to the postie every day. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re here for a reason, and you cannot let the world diminish you and make you feel less than the miracle you are. This might sound a little like Tony Robbins motivational speaking, but we need that right now. We\u0026rsquo;ve been told we\u0026rsquo;re not enough. We\u0026rsquo;ve been told we aren\u0026rsquo;t going to make it, that we aren\u0026rsquo;t this or aren\u0026rsquo;t as good as them. You open Instagram and everyone\u0026rsquo;s better than you, skinnier than you and has more money than you. It\u0026rsquo;s horrible.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all because those people are worried, terrified and insecure. My advice would be to find people you can trust and rely on, and hold this little unit of safety and sacredness where you value each other. Support one another and remind each other, “Hey, we\u0026rsquo;re awesome.”\nThe next world—the world you\u0026rsquo;ll all be building—is going to be better than the one I inherited. The world I inherited was better than the one my parents inherited. We\u0026rsquo;re getting better. We\u0026rsquo;re on this journey, but it can knock you around, man. It can knock you around, whether people mean to or not.\nEveryone listening to this right now, including you, James, is extraordinary. You\u0026rsquo;ve got so many beautiful, astonishing things to give to this world. We don\u0026rsquo;t even know what they are yet. That\u0026rsquo;s the magic of it. Who knows what James is going to do in five, 10 or 20 years? But if you start to believe a little story in your head that maybe James doesn\u0026rsquo;t have something special to give, then you\u0026rsquo;re not going to launch that next project, and we don\u0026rsquo;t get the benefit of it.\nThe same is true of something I try to tell as many people as possible when I\u0026rsquo;m doing a keynote, a session or a leadership program. I really encourage you to share generously because I can talk at you for two hours, three weeks or nine months. I hope you get some value from that. Let\u0026rsquo;s hope there\u0026rsquo;s a little insight in there, but the real value will come from you all sharing your story, experience and perspective—how you see and perceive the world.\nYou have no idea whether the question you ask, the story you share or the insight that came to you could be the thing that unlocks something for someone else. The whole reason they came to this event, keynote or program might have been to hear you say that thing, not me. It was you.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t lean in and share because you think, “My question\u0026rsquo;s not good enough,” or, “I\u0026rsquo;m not as talented as the others,” then you\u0026rsquo;re robbing that person of what they need. You\u0026rsquo;re stopping them from getting the magic they need to set their life on fire. We\u0026rsquo;re all connected, and it\u0026rsquo;s so insidious and terrifying when we start to believe we\u0026rsquo;re not enough or don\u0026rsquo;t have something amazing to contribute.\nThat amazing contribution could literally be putting your hand up and saying, “I\u0026rsquo;m not sure I understand what\u0026rsquo;s going on.” Fantastic. There are probably 17 other people thinking that but too afraid to ask. They\u0026rsquo;ll say, “Oh God, thanks so much for asking that. That was awesome.”\nThat\u0026rsquo;s what we want: a world like that, where we\u0026rsquo;re generous, we\u0026rsquo;re in it together, and we\u0026rsquo;re all being ourselves and sharing ourselves as much as possible. That kind of place, man, is the world I want to live in, and it\u0026rsquo;s coming. Hang in there, team. I\u0026rsquo;m with you. We\u0026rsquo;re in this together.\n47 - Dave Lourdes # James: Graduate Theory is aimed at uni students and early-career professionals. Looking back at who you were in the early years of your career, is there any advice you would give the Dave Lourdes who was just starting out, or young people starting a career today?\nDave: Have you got time for another podcast? My whole career and life have been—I was going to say a movie—a series of mistakes. I\u0026rsquo;ll tell you some of the ones I look back on and wish I\u0026rsquo;d changed. I\u0026rsquo;m only grappling because I have so many.\nOne was thinking I shouldn\u0026rsquo;t speak up or participate because I was too young, didn\u0026rsquo;t know enough or it wasn\u0026rsquo;t my area of expertise. One of the most important things I wish I\u0026rsquo;d done earlier and more often was scale gratitude and empathy. I don\u0026rsquo;t think you can ever say thank you enough. Caring about people matters too.\nI was overly goal-oriented when I started. I was driven by ego to work on the big projects, feel good about myself and work ridiculous hours. That was working hard, not smart. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d had more empathy, understood that everyone is different, been more grateful and recognised my unhealthy ego.\nSometimes I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t ask questions because I thought, “Will that make me look stupid?” If we all did that, no one would ask any questions. I think it\u0026rsquo;s important to ask questions early on.\nA little one is to attend work events. Not attending work events is a CLM—a career-limiting move. You\u0026rsquo;re part of the team, and it\u0026rsquo;s no different from social events. Sometimes you can\u0026rsquo;t be bothered, you\u0026rsquo;re tired or whatever it may be, but I think it\u0026rsquo;s important to make the time.\nI would have focused earlier and faster on building genuine relationships. Now I\u0026rsquo;m manic about it. I love building relationships with people; I\u0026rsquo;m obsessed with it. I did that in my career as well, but I would have started earlier.\nI\u0026rsquo;m a big believer that, if you don\u0026rsquo;t schedule something, it won\u0026rsquo;t happen. For example, if you say, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to read more,” it won\u0026rsquo;t happen unless you do it at a certain time. Or someone says, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to exercise.” My exercise time Monday to Friday is 4:30 am, and on Saturdays it\u0026rsquo;s 6:30 am. I sleep in a little bit, and on Sunday I have a rest. Schedule things.\nOne of the most powerful things you can say, which I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t say back then and wish I\u0026rsquo;d started saying earlier, is, “I don\u0026rsquo;t know,” instead of pretending or thinking you know and then having to go away and research it. I think that\u0026rsquo;s important.\nExpect to get stuck. Just expect that it\u0026rsquo;s going to happen. It happens to all of us; it happens to us now. I would have asked for help earlier and faster. That\u0026rsquo;s something I definitely didn\u0026rsquo;t do.\nAlso, don\u0026rsquo;t take a local issue and globalise it. What I mean is that being stuck is temporary. It\u0026rsquo;s a stain, not a tattoo. By the way, I wish I knew all this back then.\nAnother thing I learnt came from having a personal trainer. I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you\u0026rsquo;ve ever had one. That\u0026rsquo;s an industry you want to get into, because when you think you\u0026rsquo;re dead, a personal trainer says, “Five more.” You hate them and swear under your breath—at least I do—and then you give them money and come back next week.\nThe trainer mindset is always, “Come on, just one more. Just one more.” When I first got a personal trainer—I remember his name was Michael—that mindset really stuck with me. Whenever I think I\u0026rsquo;ve reached my limit, I tell myself, “Just one more. Just one more.” That\u0026rsquo;s helped me a lot.\nIf I could pick only one thing, James, it would be: self-awareness is king. I\u0026rsquo;ve already talked about emotional intelligence, and within that they talk about four or five different markers of emotional intelligence. For me, self-awareness is the beast. If you can master that, you\u0026rsquo;ll master your life: knowing what excites you, what deflates you, what throws you off track, what gets you back on track, and how you respond when you\u0026rsquo;re confronted and your confidence goes down.\nIf I could pick only one, self-awareness is what I wish I\u0026rsquo;d learnt earlier. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d got a coach earlier too. You\u0026rsquo;d better stop me, or I\u0026rsquo;ll bring up more wishes.\nConclusion # James: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. As I said at the start, if you want to get involved further, subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter, where you\u0026rsquo;ll get an email from me every week with a new episode. Thanks again for sticking all the way through, and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you again next week.\n← Back to episode 50\n","date":"3 October 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/50-graduate-theory-compilation-part-two/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 50\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Graduate Theory Compilation - Part Two","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello there!\nI hope you\u0026rsquo;re having a great week so far (and enjoyed the long weekend).\nToday\u0026rsquo;s episode of Graduate Theory is a bit different.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a compilation.\nAt the end of each episode, I ask the guest: \u0026ldquo;What is some advice you\u0026rsquo;d give yourself if you were starting your career again today?\u0026rdquo;\nIn this week\u0026rsquo;s episode, I\u0026rsquo;ve compiled all the responses to this question from the first 25 episodes.\nThere is some great content here this week. I hope you enjoy.\nSome of my favourite responses to look for:\n7 - Lidia Ranieri 15 - Dan Brockwell 22 - Josh Farr Watch this episode on YouTube.\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Intro\n01:07 1 - Joe Wehbe\n02:04 3 - Darren Fleming\n04:12 4 - Scott McKeon\n06:00 5 - Oscar Trimboli\n07:19 6 - Ishan Galapathy\n10:53 7 - Lidia Ranieri\n14:45 8 - Andrew Akib\n16:22 9 - Aiden and Eric\n21:25 10 - James Fricker\n23:40 11 - Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza\n26:47 12 - Adam Ashton\n29:19 14 - Ingrid Messner\n33:17 15 - Dan Brockwell\n36:01 16 - Michael Gill\n44:44 17 - Aaron Ngan\n49:01 18 - Warwick Donaldson\n50:55 19 - Penny Talalak\n53:45 20 - Adam Geha\n55:49 21 - Nimarta Verma\n57:28 22 - Josh Farr\n01:00:54 23 - Josh Reyes\n01:02:43 24 - Mel Kettle\nListen to the episodes # Joe Wehbe Wendy Teasdale-Smith Darren Fleming Scott McKeon Oscar Trimboli Ishan Galapathy Lidia Ranieri Andrew Akib Mentoring and Mental Health James Fricker Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza Adam Ashton Moving Interstate, SWE Interviews and Great Consultants Ingrid Messner Dan Brockwell Michael Gill Aaron Ngan Warwick Donaldson Penny Talalak Adam Geha Nimarta Verma Josh Farr Josh Reyes Mel Kettle ","date":"26 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/49-graduate-theory-compilation-part-one/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello there!\nI hope you’re having a great week so far (and enjoyed the long weekend).\n","title":"Graduate Theory Compilation - Part One","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 49\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today is a very special episode. If you\u0026rsquo;ve been listening for a while, you\u0026rsquo;ll remember that at the end of every episode, I ask guests what advice they would give people starting their careers today. This episode is a compilation of that advice.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve gone back through the archives and found the first half of the Graduate Theory episodes, from episode 1 to episode 24. I\u0026rsquo;ve found all the sections where guests give advice to someone who is about to finish university, has finished university or is starting their career.\nIt jumps around a fair bit, but I think there is some seriously good advice in this episode. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already, please consider subscribing to the Graduate Theory newsletter. It\u0026rsquo;s the first link in the description. You\u0026rsquo;ll get an email straight to your inbox every week with a reminder of the Graduate Theory episode, as well as my thoughts and takeaways from it. Thanks again for listening, and please enjoy.\n1 - Joe Wehbe # James: The last question for you today, Joe, is this: if you were graduating from university again—or perhaps starting university; you can choose—what\u0026rsquo;s the one piece of advice you would give yourself?\nJoe: The question we asked a lot around the book is what advice you\u0026rsquo;d give your 18-year-old self. I think I can say the same thing to both the version of me starting university and the version of me ending it: make the most of it; don\u0026rsquo;t settle for any less.\nEven when leaving, whatever comes next, focus on what you have and make the most of whatever you can access and start with. At university, I didn\u0026rsquo;t make the most of it. I wish I could go back.\nNot really, because I learnt a lot, and that made me more focused in life afterwards. Make the most of it. I think that\u0026rsquo;s it.\n3 - Darren Fleming # James: My last question, Darren, is for our audience of graduates. What\u0026rsquo;s one piece of advice you would give someone graduating from university this year?\nDarren: Wear a mask and get vaccinated. As silly as that sounds, it\u0026rsquo;s actually a lot deeper. Since World War II, driven largely by the US, we\u0026rsquo;ve had the power of the individual: \u0026ldquo;My rights. I can do this. I\u0026rsquo;m going to be the top,\u0026rdquo; and so on. COVID and climate change are existential crises that affect the whole world.\nI can put on a mask, get vaccinated and go all hippie and not drive anything, but I\u0026rsquo;m not going to stop COVID or climate change by myself. We need to work together as a society. People say, \u0026ldquo;Lockdowns are bad. It\u0026rsquo;s not affecting me. My business has gone down the toilet. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to change.\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;re missing the tectonic shift happening in society. We\u0026rsquo;re moving from an individualistic society back to a collectivist society, where we rely on each other.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s a traditional Ethiopian saying: \u0026ldquo;If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s where we are now. The mask and vaccination are metaphors for what we need to do. This is about coming together.\nThe knowledge you have is great. It\u0026rsquo;s common, but it\u0026rsquo;s great. The experience you have from the life that brought you here today is uncommon and needs to be shared, as does your knowledge. Get vaccinated, if for no other reason than that we all need to get there.\n4 - Scott McKeon # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question, Scott. Given all your experiences through university and where you are now with your start-up, what one lesson would you give yourself if you were starting university again at the beginning of next year?\nScott: Join The Constant Student. Honestly, without a doubt, that\u0026rsquo;s what I would say. That\u0026rsquo;s why Liam, Joey and I are working on it and why it exists. There\u0026rsquo;s so much you can learn right now. If university is being delivered online, imagine learning on the internet without the university constraint of subjects and coursework.\nHow about learning within 12 weeks or one or two years? In one year, you could not only learn a year\u0026rsquo;s worth of information and content, but also learn and earn. You could earn money from the things you\u0026rsquo;re learning and level up in multiple ways. Again, it\u0026rsquo;s the ecosystem.\nThe ecosystem is your platform to build on. All the things I benefited from are consolidated within The Constant Student, and it will continue to grow over the years. Get involved and ask questions. Rather than looking for answers to be given to you, think of yourself as an adventurer. You have to discover, look around, determine things, ask questions and try things. People are always happy to help, guide you along the path and let you try things. If you have that mentality, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t really matter what you do. Because you\u0026rsquo;re doing things, you\u0026rsquo;ll find the right answer.\n5 - Oscar Trimboli # James: Oscar, I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you today. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about graduates a little, but you\u0026rsquo;ve had such a fantastic career and worked with so many organisations. If you were graduating this year and starting your career next year, what advice would you give yourself?\nOscar: I would give myself two pieces of advice. First, I would give back to my first-year lecturers at university. I would ask, \u0026ldquo;Can I give a guest lecture based on my workplace experience and how I\u0026rsquo;ve applied what I learnt from you?\u0026rdquo; It would be a thank you to my lecturers.\nSecond, I would take more time to listen to executive assistants and administrators in the organisation. They are the glue that holds the organisation together. They make everything run smoothly and, if you\u0026rsquo;re in their bad books, they can slow everything down for you as well. Whether it\u0026rsquo;s a receptionist, an executive assistant or any kind of administrator, these people are the glue that holds the organisation together. I\u0026rsquo;d invest more time in getting to know them.\n6 - Ishan Galapathy # James: In a similar vein, I have one question that I ask all the guests. Let\u0026rsquo;s say Ishan is back in 1998, finishing university and about to start his career. What advice would you give yourself?\nIshan: Funny you should ask that, James. I went to the University of New South Wales, as you said in the introduction, and I was living in Randwick. I distinctly remember the first day I arrived in Australia and in Randwick. On that Saturday afternoon in February 1994, I walked along Belmore Road, I think, the main street in Randwick.\nI had all these questions going through my head, from simple things like, \u0026ldquo;How do I get to uni? Where\u0026rsquo;s my faculty? How do I find it?\u0026rdquo; all the way to, \u0026ldquo;What will my first job be? Who will I marry? Where will I live?\u0026rdquo;\nRecently, I had the pleasure of helping my niece, who is studying engineering at the same faculty, settle into her apartment. My wife and I helped her rent a flat, move in and set up. That evening, I had to grab something to eat. We all know the area like the backs of our hands, so I quickly rushed to Belmore Road to find a cafe.\nIn that moment, I could feel the Ishan who was on that road in 1994. It was as if I were watching a movie of myself in the third person, walking the road for the first time, looking into the windows and feeling all the questions I had then. I wanted to tell that Ishan, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to be okay. It\u0026rsquo;s going to be an enjoyable ride.\u0026rdquo; I saw myself telling the 20-year-old version of me that.\nAt the same time, I saw the 70-year-old Ishan coming to tell the forty-something-year-old Ishan, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve got questions now too. Where to next? Will I be able to make the difference I want to? Is the world going to be okay? Will we travel again?\u0026rdquo; I heard the voice of the 70-year-old Ishan saying, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to be okay, and it\u0026rsquo;s going to be an enjoyable ride.\u0026rdquo;\n7 - Lidia Ranieri # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you today, Lidia, and it\u0026rsquo;s one I ask every guest. If you were graduating from university again and starting in the workforce this year, what advice would you give yourself?\nLidia: You need to take the pressure off yourself and let go of any expectation that you should have an answer today about what you need to do. You will probably start out doing one thing and find yourself doing something completely different 15 or 20 years down the track. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to have it all figured out.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also important to understand your true nature. Some people pursue the idea, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just going to do what feels right and what I\u0026rsquo;m interested in,\u0026rdquo; and that\u0026rsquo;s a great place to start. Others are more strategic: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going over here because these are leading fields in the economy and they pay well.\u0026rdquo;\nWherever you\u0026rsquo;re being led in your thinking process indicates what you value and what\u0026rsquo;s important to you, so you need to listen to that. As long as you\u0026rsquo;re not doing things only because you think you\u0026rsquo;ll get some financial reward, follow what your inner voice is telling you to do. It will lead to something else, which leads to something else, which leads to something else.\nThere is no wrong turn, because you\u0026rsquo;re accumulating knowledge and experience. The wrong turn is doing something that has no interest or appeal, doesn\u0026rsquo;t light you up and doesn\u0026rsquo;t stimulate you in any way. That\u0026rsquo;s your wrong turn, and you need to think about doing something else.\nI took that wrong turn very quickly in my career. My first job out of university was at a law firm, and I thought I would pursue a career in law. Within three months, I was going home with a dead feeling. I knew, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t do this.\u0026rdquo; When I told friends and family I was aborting that mission, they thought I was absolutely mad: \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve finished the law degree and got a great job with a great firm. You can\u0026rsquo;t do that.\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;No, I definitely am. That is not the right direction for me.\u0026rdquo;\nI went home and asked myself, \u0026ldquo;If I don\u0026rsquo;t want the partner\u0026rsquo;s job—not in any Machiavellian sense, but in an aspirational context—then what have I got to aim for here?\u0026rdquo; The process and steps didn\u0026rsquo;t make sense to me, so I needed to find something else. The differentiator for me was the dynamism, the difference every day and the unscripted way of working. That didn\u0026rsquo;t exist in that role, but it did in what I went on to do.\nDid it really have to be stockbroking? No. It could have been anything that allowed me to have that unscripted, more dynamic way of working, almost like working from a blank whiteboard.\n8 - Andrew Akib # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question, which I ask all my guests. Given where you are in your career now, imagine you\u0026rsquo;ve just finished university and are about to start your first job. What advice would you give yourself after all these experiences?\nAndrew: I would tell myself not to kick the things I\u0026rsquo;m considering down the road. If you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about doing something, do it. I probably would have started Maslow a couple of years earlier.\nNot that I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been scared, but I should have decided earlier. Without pointing to specific experiences, I can sum it up this way: whatever you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about, start it earlier. Further down the track, you\u0026rsquo;ll reflect and realise you wasted time waiting.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s okay, but there\u0026rsquo;s no harm in starting something new if that\u0026rsquo;s what you want. The two or four years a degree takes will pass anyway, so you might as well do it. You\u0026rsquo;ll continue progressing in your career and may become bored anyway. You might as well start the new thing now. If you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about doing something, don\u0026rsquo;t wait.\n9 - Aiden and Eric # James: What advice would you give someone starting their first job? It could be about mental health, which is obviously important, or anything you would have told yourself when you started your first job. Maybe we\u0026rsquo;ll start with Aiden.\nAiden: Going back to my conversation about start-ups and corporates, I\u0026rsquo;d say to take the time to research all the options available to you. If it makes sense, join a start-up or, even better, start one. You\u0026rsquo;re young, you\u0026rsquo;ve got time and it might work out really well for you.\nThe second thing, more specifically to do with mental health, is to make sure you\u0026rsquo;re taking the time to preserve your own mental health. One of the best ways to do that is to set boundaries. If you think work is too much, set a clear boundary and say, \u0026ldquo;This is overstepping the bounds I\u0026rsquo;m comfortable with, so I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do it.\u0026rdquo; Communicate your boundaries clearly to the people around you as well, so they know what you can and can\u0026rsquo;t do, and go from there.\nThe third piece of advice is more general. When you start a new job as a graduate, find out who will be on your team and take every single person out for coffee once. Make that a goal in the first month. I don\u0026rsquo;t care how many people there are—it could be five, 10 or 20. It might be a bit expensive, but take every one of them out for coffee and get to know them. Ask what makes them tick, what their work experience is and what specifically they do at work.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll tend to find that, A, they\u0026rsquo;re grateful because who doesn\u0026rsquo;t love free coffee? And, B, they get to know you on a personal level. Because of that, it\u0026rsquo;s much easier to get to grips with the team and the work, and you\u0026rsquo;ll form genuine connections within the first month. In contrast, many people who tend to be quite introverted don\u0026rsquo;t talk to anyone for a few weeks. You just need to break out of your shell a little to do that.\nJames: Eric, what about you? Any advice you would give?\nEric: When I was close to graduating, I had a mentor whom I\u0026rsquo;d sought out. I went to a speech of his, and we started meeting regularly. He gave me some advice that took me two years to act on: build something. Create a visible identity, content or something you can be proud of outside your role, whatever it happens to be.\nThat does a lot of things. It gives you confidence, requires you to develop the skills needed to build whatever you want to build and makes you visible. It\u0026rsquo;s something we can now point to. We both have our own online identities that speak for us, and that\u0026rsquo;s something we go into in the book as well.\nIf I\u0026rsquo;d started earlier, it would be so much more valuable. That\u0026rsquo;s definitely something I would tell anyone who\u0026rsquo;s early in their career or still at uni: build something you can point to and say, \u0026ldquo;I built that. It\u0026rsquo;s a demonstration of what I can do.\u0026rdquo;\nAiden: To add to that, James, you\u0026rsquo;ve pretty much done it. You\u0026rsquo;ve hit the nail on the head with Graduate Theory. There you go: a shining example. That\u0026rsquo;s a great tip, Eric.\nJames: Eric, what you\u0026rsquo;re saying about building your personal brand is so important, especially today, when you can have things on the internet that let people see what you\u0026rsquo;re about and what you\u0026rsquo;ve created without having to meet or spend time with you.\nAiden, it\u0026rsquo;s also great advice to connect with your team and even the wider organisation, making networking something you do proactively and creating as much of a network as you can, especially when you\u0026rsquo;re early in your career.\nEric: If I could add to what Aiden was saying, it\u0026rsquo;s important to acknowledge the caveats that come with setting boundaries, especially when you\u0026rsquo;re starting out and want to be high-achieving. You want to make a good impression, as we said before, and it can be hard to say no or know how to say it.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a difficult thing to navigate, so you take a lot on. But the first few years of your career, perhaps your twenties, are when you get to test your bandwidth and see how much work you can do and take on before you feel yourself starting to burn out. Then you stay in that range.\n10 - James Fricker # Joe: What is one tip you would give to new graduates? I believe that\u0026rsquo;s your final question, but what\u0026rsquo;s one tip you would give to new graduates today?\nJames: The main thing is to be intentional about what you\u0026rsquo;re doing. That\u0026rsquo;s so important. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you look forward one year: what would make this a successful year for you, and what things are you going to do this year that would be good? Even when it comes to networking, be intentional about who you\u0026rsquo;re networking with and make that something you participate in.\nLife is an adventure, so you\u0026rsquo;ve got to go out and make stuff yourself. Coming back to what we were talking about before, no one\u0026rsquo;s going to make your experience great for you. No one\u0026rsquo;s going to sit there and say, \u0026ldquo;This is the perfect opportunity for you. Here you go.\u0026rdquo; You have to create that stuff yourself and meet the people you want to meet. They\u0026rsquo;re not going to come to you.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got to seek the opportunities you want because no one\u0026rsquo;s going to bring them to you. Take life with both hands, embrace the world and seek things yourself. That\u0026rsquo;s the lesson I try to apply, and it would be my lesson to a new graduate as well.\nLife\u0026rsquo;s an adventure and a fantastic journey, but you\u0026rsquo;ve got to get in there, get in the arena and make the most of it. Take life with both hands. That\u0026rsquo;s fundamental not only during your graduate experience, but throughout your entire life. Tackle stuff head-on and get involved. Don\u0026rsquo;t sit on the sidelines mocking or watching people who are doing cool stuff; get in there, meet people, participate and do cool stuff yourself. That\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;ve grown into doing this year, and I\u0026rsquo;d recommend it to everyone.\n11 - Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, Haynes. We\u0026rsquo;ve covered so much in this conversation, but I want to ask the question I ask all the guests. If you were graduating and about to start your grad role next year, what advice, or one piece of advice, would you give yourself?\nHaynes: I\u0026rsquo;d tell myself that it\u0026rsquo;s important to keep my personal interests and hobbies and not lose them when going into a grad role.\nThe process of getting a grad job is well documented, and there are enough resources out there. What we don\u0026rsquo;t talk about is the importance of keeping your personality and hobbies as you join a big company. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen this so many times: you go through university with all these hobbies, interests and passions, then enter the workforce and it becomes all-consuming.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s nine-to-five, but not really nine-to-five. It depends on your role and company, but you\u0026rsquo;ll be working long hours. Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll work on weekends and miss birthdays and dinners. Looking back, my view is that you want to keep your passions, interests and hobbies with you for as long as you can.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t let your work life take over your whole life, because it\u0026rsquo;s easy to do. There is always work; there will always be work. But if you\u0026rsquo;re into sport, the gym, dancing, teaching or mentoring, or have a business—whatever gives you joy and satisfaction—you need to keep that, because there will be times when work isn\u0026rsquo;t great.\nWhether you\u0026rsquo;ve had a tough week or you\u0026rsquo;re really stressed, you rely on your personal hobbies and interests to pick you up. For a lot of people, it\u0026rsquo;s their relationship with their partner, their faith or working out at the gym. The crazier work gets, the more important those parts of your life become in keeping you grounded and sane.\nIf your work becomes all-encompassing and there\u0026rsquo;s nothing else, you\u0026rsquo;ll burn out very quickly. You\u0026rsquo;ll also look back and realise that all you\u0026rsquo;ve done is work and you\u0026rsquo;ve got nothing else to show for it. My advice for all these optimistic 21-year-old grads is: keep your hobbies, interests and passions.\nHave work fit around those, rather than making it the only thing you have in life. It also makes you much more interesting and knowledgeable. As you become more senior, relationships become super important in the workplace.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll draw on those experiences—travelling, having a business or working out—to build workplace relationships as you become more senior. That\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;d recommend.\n12 - Adam Ashton # James: To finish, Adam, we\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about your grad experience and the podcast. What advice would you give to graduates listening who might be in their first year in the workplace, knowing everything you know and all the experiences you\u0026rsquo;ve had?\nAdam Ashton: Before we started, I had three things in mind, but I\u0026rsquo;m going to change them. Maybe, in a year or two, we\u0026rsquo;ll have to do a second episode and I\u0026rsquo;ll give the other three I was going to give—although maybe they\u0026rsquo;ll have changed by then. I\u0026rsquo;m going to combine the first answer I gave with the last one about the whole grad experience.\nThe first time, I saw it as a game and competition. I thought I was in it, so I had to do it and beat everybody else. It was the path everyone was taking, so I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to jump on this path and try to do it better than everybody else, because that\u0026rsquo;s what everybody does.\u0026rdquo; That was the wrong approach.\nThe right approach is the \u0026ldquo;want to\u0026rdquo; approach we spoke about with reading. If you genuinely want to do it, are curious about it and see the benefits—things you can learn and apply to your work, career, business, relationships or friendships—you\u0026rsquo;re going to enjoy reading.\nIf I\u0026rsquo;d flipped my perspective on work and seen it as something I wanted to do, where I could develop skills, learn new things, build a reputation or brand, and build a network, it would have been a much better experience. If I were a grad now, I\u0026rsquo;m sure I\u0026rsquo;d be so much better than I was five years ago.\nMy advice isn\u0026rsquo;t to quit your grad job and start a business, or whatever you might be thinking. It\u0026rsquo;s to realise you can do both. You can have a full-time job plus stuff on the side; they aren\u0026rsquo;t competing and can complement each other. I should have placed more value on the grad experience, rather than dismissing it as, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m doing all this stuff on the side, so this stuff is less important.\u0026rdquo;\n14 - Ingrid Messner # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you today, Ingrid, and it\u0026rsquo;s about people starting their careers. What advice would you give young people starting their careers in 2022?\nIngrid: I feel for you, starting your career in 2022 given what\u0026rsquo;s happening. It could actually be an advantage, but starting a career is usually a rite-of-passage point, before which you would have done certain things that haven\u0026rsquo;t happened because of COVID.\nIt might be good to find an area where you can focus on developing yourself and your self-awareness. You could do that through meditation, journalling, yoga or conversations with other people, so you become increasingly aware of who you are and what you want.\nIn 2022, and most likely next year as well, you\u0026rsquo;ll enter a world where everything is uncertain and complex. It\u0026rsquo;s challenging to say, \u0026ldquo;This is my vision or long-term goal.\u0026rdquo; It might be enough to say, \u0026ldquo;I would like to learn these five things in the next year. These are my passions, and this is my purpose. How do I bring them together and find the right organisation in which to work in this area?\u0026rdquo;\nDuring the year, take it step by step and check whether it is still what you want. Other people might push you into something you didn\u0026rsquo;t see coming at first, but which sneaks in over time, and you can lose a little of yourself. While you\u0026rsquo;re learning about yourself, put in regular checkpoints, perhaps every month or quarter, when you ask, \u0026ldquo;Is this really what I want, and what\u0026rsquo;s the next step?\u0026rdquo; Take it in shorter bursts.\nSome people finishing now may have a long-term vision and goal, which is great as long as they can hold it loosely and accept that they might not get there in a straight line. Hold the goal like a beacon or lighthouse you can follow, while accepting that you may take many detours. On a detour, you may notice, \u0026ldquo;Actually, this is much better.\u0026rdquo; At a checkpoint, you may realise you know enough about yourself to have the courage to change your goal, and that is fine. Long-term visions and goals are good, but only if you hold them lightly.\nA few people have a fixed vision and are brilliant at pursuing it. For the majority, I think it\u0026rsquo;s better for their emotional and mental health to accept that it\u0026rsquo;s okay to change and not know. You can admit that you don\u0026rsquo;t know, take a break and explore what\u0026rsquo;s around you. Decide on something, try it as an experiment, learn from it and take the next step. You can\u0026rsquo;t possibly know everything, and that\u0026rsquo;s okay.\n15 - Dan Brockwell # James: I have one more question. People are graduating and starting jobs in 2022. What advice would you give someone starting their career this year?\nDan: Regardless of whether they enter a start-up or corporation, I would say: optimise for learning. By that I mean the learning you want, not simply accepting your company\u0026rsquo;s structured program. Identify what you want to learn and ask how you can learn it as quickly as possible. How can you practise, teach and engage with it? Perhaps you want to become an excellent public speaker, salesperson or developer. Be intentional about how you spend your time—not every second of the day, because you need breaks, but at work and on side projects. Ask what you are learning and how quickly, and create a clear framework and plan.\nThe other piece is to find people who care about similar things. That begins with an ongoing question: what problems would you like to work on ten or more years into your career? Perhaps it is climate change, nuclear warfare or artificial intelligence. There are many fascinating areas, and exploring them takes time and reading. One of the best things you can do is talk to other people, because co-learning is beautiful.\nFind capable people with good values who care about similar problems and are doing something about them. Learn from them and teach one another. Looking back at university, I still have friends who followed very different paths: cryptocurrency, law, video-game design and PhDs. The common threads are a strong core of values, curiosity and intentionality. Find people with whom you resonate, because those around you will have an outsized impact on how your career progresses.\nOne more thing: start creating content now. Find what you care about and make a newsletter, TikTok videos, social-media posts, art or anything else. The format doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter. Creating content will help you find people who care about similar things, and that will be a superpower for years to come.\n16 - Michael Gill # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one final question for Gilly. Much of this podcast is about graduates and people starting their careers. What advice would you give someone entering the workforce in 2022?\nMichael: James, when do you start your career?\nJames: In my mind, it\u0026rsquo;s when you get your first full-time job.\nMichael: Does your tertiary education have nothing to do with your career?\nJames: I think it does. It definitely does.\nMichael: So what is your question?\nJames: How about advice for entering the workforce?\nMichael: Are you familiar with 18 and Lost, Peter? James, I think you are. It was written by a group of students and asked what they knew at 26 or 27 that they wished they had known at 18. The knowledge, experience, values and skills you bring to choosing a university course are far less developed than they are at 26, after one of the most formative periods of your life.\nThe first lesson, James, is that keeping an open mind and an open heart is more than a fashionable phrase; it is one of life\u0026rsquo;s great survival skills. You haven\u0026rsquo;t wasted your school or tertiary education, but remain open-minded about how you will use it throughout your life. Be prepared to extend yourself without guilt, remorse or shame. If you\u0026rsquo;re tempted to think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve made a mistake,\u0026rdquo; remember that you haven\u0026rsquo;t: like me in first-year law, you\u0026rsquo;re learning.\nBegin to understand what ignites your passion, where your light comes from and what feels authentically you. Do it for yourself rather than an employer, your parents or other people who have expectations of you. Learn to distinguish your own feelings from the bombardment of social media and other material that pushes you in a particular direction. Somewhere along the way, your inner voice may say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not quite sure about that.\u0026rdquo;\nI tell anyone who will listen that we have three important ways of knowing: head, heart and gut. Keep them in balance and listen to all three. Then walk down life\u0026rsquo;s path understanding that it is a process and a journey, not merely a destination. It\u0026rsquo;s a cliché, but stay in the present. It\u0026rsquo;s fine to say, \u0026ldquo;In five years, I\u0026rsquo;d like to be a senior associate at DLA Piper,\u0026rdquo; but it shouldn\u0026rsquo;t preoccupy you completely.\nI know a lovely guy my age, a retired land surveyor who is Jewish. When people in our presence start talking about planning, Danny always says, \u0026ldquo;If you want to hear God laugh, plan.\u0026rdquo; I love it. Welcome the surprises and embrace them. You may think, \u0026ldquo;I didn\u0026rsquo;t expect that. What a gift. How did I meet somebody at a nightclub at 11:30 in the evening who can contribute to my curiosity about my career or something else?\u0026rdquo; Where does this stuff come from?\nLife is more than a single career. It is about activating all your unique gifts and leaving none on the shelf. That is a lot to digest, but I can add one more practical point. In business circumstances involving clients, be generous—not to build a reputation, but because people respond to generosity. We all know how we feel about people who are genuinely generous: they aren\u0026rsquo;t looking for anything in return, but simply want to do something for us. That activates something in us, just as it does in others. Cynics may ask, \u0026ldquo;Why did they do that? What\u0026rsquo;s in it for them?\u0026rdquo; We should rise above that because we understand the value of unconditional generosity.\nGenerosity has the same effect in personal relationships. Early in a relationship, you may do something small without realising how much it means: perhaps you tidy the kitchen while waiting to take somebody out, instead of sitting and watching one of Adelaide\u0026rsquo;s football teams on television. Whole-of-life skills, business skills, professional skills and personal skills are the same. You don\u0026rsquo;t become one person when you put on a suit, another in a basketball uniform and a third when you change clothes again. These are life skills; we don\u0026rsquo;t put on different outfits for them.\n17 - Aaron Ngan # James: What advice or key principles would you give people making the transition into their first full-time role?\nAaron: The number one piece of advice I\u0026rsquo;d give is to share what you\u0026rsquo;re up to. Share it with your family, friends and network. Tell people, \u0026ldquo;This is what I want to do. This is the type of work and what excites me about it.\u0026rdquo; Share that with as many people as possible, and things will happen. People will ask, \u0026ldquo;Have you heard about this job or volunteering opportunity? Have you thought about joining this hackathon? Have you seen this?\u0026rdquo; People on the same journey might say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m also doing this. Let\u0026rsquo;s catch up, connect and collaborate.\u0026rdquo; You might learn from or contribute to them.\nWhen sharing what you\u0026rsquo;re doing and setting out to accomplish early in your career, you could say, \u0026ldquo;I really want to be an amazing product manager or systems engineer. I really want to be an amazing junior HR manager.\u0026rdquo; You can start to understand what excites you. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be a huge aspirational thing like, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m joining Tesla to create the next powered smart-home battery motorcycle,\u0026rdquo; or whatever it is.\nIt doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be something incredible that\u0026rsquo;s going to Mars. In your early-stage career, you could say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m committed to discovering the world of finance so I can make a difference to everyday people who use Company X\u0026rsquo;s services.\u0026rdquo; As you share and explore that, two things will happen. You\u0026rsquo;ll deepen your awareness of what you actually want to do.\nThe more conversations you have and the more you explain it to people who say, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. Tell me about that,\u0026rdquo; the deeper and more real it becomes for you. Your environment also starts to recognise, \u0026ldquo;James is the person who does that podcast.\u0026rdquo;\nIf someone approaches me, of course I\u0026rsquo;m going to recommend him. It makes sense, because sharing what you\u0026rsquo;re up to is the number one thing that influences your environment. It could be a post or a conversation: \u0026ldquo;What have you been doing? What have you been up to?\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;How\u0026rsquo;s it going?\u0026rdquo; in Australia is the equivalent of saying, \u0026ldquo;Hello, but please don\u0026rsquo;t tell me how you\u0026rsquo;re actually feeling or what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\u0026rdquo; The standard response is, \u0026ldquo;Nothing much. How about you?\u0026rdquo; But when you\u0026rsquo;re asked what you\u0026rsquo;ve been up to, you can actually talk about it.\nYou can say, \u0026ldquo;I recorded a podcast this week. The guest flipped it on me and started asking me questions, which was pretty cool. From that, I\u0026rsquo;m going to think about how I can create more value for people, because I\u0026rsquo;m committed to ensuring Graduate Theory\u0026rsquo;s listeners and the community we\u0026rsquo;re building have the best possible resources, preparation, support and guidance to take action and move their careers to the next step. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve been doing this weekend.\u0026rdquo;\nI just made that up for you as an example. Someone will say, \u0026ldquo;Tell me about that,\u0026rdquo; and then it builds. Share what you\u0026rsquo;re up to and what you\u0026rsquo;re about.\n18 - Warwick Donaldson # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question, which I ask all the guests: what advice would you give someone starting their career in 2022?\nWarwick: Build your network. It may seem hard and daunting at the start—and it is—but it\u0026rsquo;s a marathon, not a race. There are plenty of beautiful, amazing people out there who want to talk to you and share their experiences with you. Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to ask them. The worst they can say is no. Literally, that\u0026rsquo;s the worst they can say. The best they can say is, \u0026ldquo;Hell yeah, let\u0026rsquo;s go and have a coffee,\u0026rdquo; and then who knows what will happen? It\u0026rsquo;s an asymmetric risk, and it\u0026rsquo;s an amazing thing. You really should be doing that.\nI understand that not everyone is an extrovert, so it\u0026rsquo;s more difficult for some than it is for others, but try to fight it or find ways that work for you. Maybe it\u0026rsquo;s online; maybe it\u0026rsquo;s pinging someone and asking questions. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t always have to be face-to-face. Face-to-face is great for building relationships, but there are other ways. There\u0026rsquo;s always another way to solve a problem, so try to innovate, do some reading and figure it out.\nThose networks and relationships are what will hold you strong throughout your career and your life. They\u0026rsquo;re something your job doesn\u0026rsquo;t own. When you leave, you take them with you. They become some of your capital that you can use to improve your life, improve your performance in your role and simply have a nicer life. It\u0026rsquo;s really good.\n19 - Penny Talalak # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question, Penny, which I ask all guests. If you were finishing uni and starting your career or first job again this year, what advice would you give yourself?\nPenny: That\u0026rsquo;s a hard one because I love my job and I\u0026rsquo;m doing really well. If I had to go back and start over, I\u0026rsquo;d panic because the competition is much higher. COVID put so many people out of jobs, and there are so many great designers. If I didn\u0026rsquo;t get a job offer, going through applications and graduate programs again would be exhausting.\nI definitely wouldn\u0026rsquo;t apply for a graduate program. I\u0026rsquo;m done with that. I\u0026rsquo;d probably look for something more entry-level. Even though the benchmark is so high, I\u0026rsquo;d probably start a business. If I were starting my career again, I\u0026rsquo;d start a business and stop applying. I\u0026rsquo;d still apply, but I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be upset if I didn\u0026rsquo;t get a job because I\u0026rsquo;d have my own thing too.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. You\u0026rsquo;ve shown there are plenty of opportunities for side hustles and extra things to do if you look for them and are interested in what problems need solving in the world. That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. We\u0026rsquo;re in the period when people are applying for graduate roles that start next year, so it\u0026rsquo;s also very timely.\nPenny: It\u0026rsquo;s stressful for them. I never want to go through it again. Job applications are way more stressful than a break-up. Rejection from an application is more stressful than a guy rejecting you. It hurts. Every day, you check your email and see that you didn\u0026rsquo;t get a job. Your life sucks.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re surrounded by people making money and flashing their suits in Barangaroo. I never got to experience that because I didn\u0026rsquo;t work in Barangaroo. But creating a job for yourself will help you get a job, and a lot of people don\u0026rsquo;t realise that.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. I\u0026rsquo;d recommend doing side hustles to anyone. If you pay attention to the world\u0026rsquo;s problems and help people solve them, you\u0026rsquo;ll be setting yourself up in the right way.\nPenny: Also, know people. If I went back, I wish I\u0026rsquo;d known more people. Even though I know a lot of people, I want to know more smart, talented people within my circle. You need people like that in your life.\n20 - Adam Geha # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, Adam, just to finish off. A lot of the listeners here are younger. They\u0026rsquo;re perhaps starting their careers or in the first few years of their careers. Thinking back to your own experience at that time, is there any advice or any lessons you would give yourself if you were in that position again?\nAdam: Dream big. Be bold. It takes just as much effort to achieve big goals as it does small ones, so you might as well dream big. Make sure you believe in yourself. I\u0026rsquo;m going to write a series of microblogs on self-belief because it\u0026rsquo;s becoming apparent to me that a number of people beginning the entrepreneurial journey just need to increase their self-belief.\nSelf-belief means that, no matter what happens or what the task or challenge is, you\u0026rsquo;re equal to and up to the task. This type of self-worth and self-belief is absolutely indispensable to success. Then I would say: go out and find a mentor or two. I have two or three at any given time, and I mentor about six or seven because I believe the world is a big circle.\nWhen you\u0026rsquo;re receiving, you need to give. Then the universe keeps giving you more and more mentors if you\u0026rsquo;re mentoring others. I would definitely say: believe in yourself, dream big and surround yourself with one or two wise mentors. Go for walks in the park with them, put the problems of the week in front of them and ask what they think you should do.\nIf you do that often enough, you\u0026rsquo;ll gain a lot of wisdom.\n21 - Nimarta Verma # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, Nimarta, which I ask all the guests. Part of Graduate Theory is career advice and considering how young people can grow their careers. We\u0026rsquo;ve had some great advice from you tonight, but what\u0026rsquo;s some advice you would give young people starting their careers today?\nNimarta: The biggest thing is that it\u0026rsquo;s not life and death. It\u0026rsquo;s not the end of the world. The career you\u0026rsquo;re in now doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be the career you remain in for the rest of your life. You can change your mind 2,000 times, switch industries and careers, or be 10 years into a career and decide, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really bored with that. I\u0026rsquo;m going to do a different degree and take a different route.\u0026rdquo;\nI see a lot of stress among 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds who are trying to map out the rest of their lives. You can\u0026rsquo;t do that, and you don\u0026rsquo;t need to know what you\u0026rsquo;ll be doing for the rest of your life. You just need to know what the next thing is, then do it. If it fulfils you and you love it, keep at it. If it doesn\u0026rsquo;t, don\u0026rsquo;t settle. Step back and ask what else you should be doing. Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to change or change your mind.\n22 - Josh Farr # James: I know we\u0026rsquo;re out of time, but we\u0026rsquo;ll try to squeeze in one question I ask all the guests: what\u0026rsquo;s some advice you\u0026rsquo;d give yourself if you were restarting your career at the start of this year?\nJosh: What I just described would probably be my answer: think about the next five years and whom you want to help. If you\u0026rsquo;re lost, try to answer this question.\nI\u0026rsquo;m sure this isn\u0026rsquo;t original, but the point of a career is to end unnecessary suffering. If you don\u0026rsquo;t know what to do, find someone who is struggling or suffering that shouldn\u0026rsquo;t exist—a resourcefulness problem rather than a resource problem. Before recording, I mentioned booking an Airbnb today. Its home page asked whether users could help house 200,000 Ukrainian refugees. There are obviously more refugees, but that was the displayed figure.\nPeople with vacant Airbnb properties around the world could say, \u0026ldquo;I can house a family for two weeks. I can forgo two weeks of Airbnb income,\u0026rdquo; or perhaps offer accommodation for two months or two years.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a small sacrifice that won\u0026rsquo;t cause their own family to starve. Many listeners won\u0026rsquo;t have a spare property, but they may have a free weekend, a few hours or $50 each month to donate. My advice to my younger self would be to find a problem you care about.\nFind suffering—strange as that sounds—with leverage: it needn\u0026rsquo;t happen, a solution exists, and great people or organisations are working on it. Get involved and change your proximity. Proximity changed everything for me.\nThe hardest advice I\u0026rsquo;d give my younger self is to spend time somewhere with real problems. Those problems can exist in your neighbourhood, including domestic abuse and many others. You shouldn\u0026rsquo;t simply knock on a neighbour\u0026rsquo;s door and ask whether suffering is occurring. Connect with organisations addressing problems locally, or go somewhere where the environment confronts you with them.\nI needed the shock of recognising that real problems existed and that I could help. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t pleasant, but it was practical. The gap between what I thought I wanted and what I needed became apparent. Go somewhere with a genuine challenge and be around people solving it.\nHad I only witnessed the crisis without seeing anyone respond, it would have been deeply depressing. At the refugee crossing, however, I saw local families and bakers with almost nothing give away everything. They closed businesses and gave all their bread to refugees they didn\u0026rsquo;t know, from other countries and religions.\nSome of their religions blatantly said these people were the enemy, yet the locals said, \u0026ldquo;Yeah, but we\u0026rsquo;re going to give our entire lives to helping them.\u0026rdquo; I thought, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s religion. That\u0026rsquo;s what it\u0026rsquo;s about.\u0026rdquo; Being around such selfless, generous people changed my perspective.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the message I would give my younger self.\n23 - Josh Reyes # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question about your career. Do you have any advice for graduates starting work this year as they enter a world of crypto, remote work and other emerging trends?\nJosh: I\u0026rsquo;ll strongly advocate for crypto. I think it is very much the future. The amount of talent rushing into the industry is unfathomable. I left a full-time Web2 job just over a year ago, and now I\u0026rsquo;m deeply involved in working, hiring and experimenting in this industry.\nWhen Marcus and I started the company, we said this might be our last chance to arrive early and help define our vision for the industry. The same principle applied when I joined an early-stage start-up.\nI had strong beliefs about what work and company culture should be like, based on reading books and talking to friends. I still have strong beliefs about work, as well as about what the future of Web3, crypto and the internet should be.\nIf you have values and beliefs that you want to apply to this industry, the idea may sound crazy, but I think the next three to five years may be the last period when you can make an impact and express those values at a scale that could affect millions or billions of people.\n24 - Mel Kettle # James: That leads to my last question, which you\u0026rsquo;ve partly answered. I ask every guest: what advice would you give someone just starting their career? Given all you know now, if you could wind back the clock and start again, what advice would you give yourself?\nMel: Listen to your instincts, because they\u0026rsquo;re very rarely wrong. That would be my number one piece of advice. If your gut is saying, \u0026ldquo;This isn\u0026rsquo;t quite right,\u0026rdquo; ask questions and listen to it.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s important. You\u0026rsquo;ve got the mind and the heart, and both are powerful. You have to listen to them.\nMel: There\u0026rsquo;s a mind–gut connection. So much research now shows a close link between what happens in our gut and what happens in our brain.\nThere are some good books, none of whose names I can remember. Research over the last 20 years has shown a strong connection between the mind, brain and gut. If you\u0026rsquo;re interested, do some research and learn more, but I believe you should listen to your instinct.\nWe all have an instinct, like a sixth sense, so pay attention. You might call it your spidey senses or the tingles on the back of your neck. In my experience, they\u0026rsquo;re not usually wrong.\nJames: Thanks again for listening to Graduate Theory. Please consider subscribing to the Graduate Theory newsletter. It\u0026rsquo;s the first link in the description. You\u0026rsquo;ll get an email straight to your inbox every week with a summary and my takeaways from that week\u0026rsquo;s episode. Thanks again, have a great week and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you next time.\n← Back to episode 49\n","date":"26 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/49-graduate-theory-compilation-part-one/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 49\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Graduate Theory Compilation - Part One","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Work-Life Balance reached a new record of searches in April 2021.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a common thought: how can I achieve work-life balance?\nIn this episode, we unpack WLB and see what experts from across the world have to say.\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Dealing with Work Commitment Creep # It\u0026rsquo;s easy for work commitments to start creeping into our personal lives.\nHow can we deal with this?\nCreate clear boundaries for when you are working and when you aren\u0026rsquo;t. You aren\u0026rsquo;t letting people down by not being available 24/7.\nTreat weekends like vacations. Enjoy your time away from work, and do something creative and fun with your time away from the office. Relax and forget.\nAsk for more time. If work is interfering with your personal life, ask for more time so that you can complete the work in a way that is sustainable.\nWork-Life Harmony # Work and life are not two opposing forces, they are complementary.\nWhen you love your work, you will be better at home.\nWhen you are better at home, you will be better at work.\nWork and life do not need to be balanced, they are harmonious.\nSome People Don\u0026rsquo;t Understand # Work-life balance for one person is another\u0026rsquo;s nightmare.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to recognise that what you want out of life is different to other people.\nHave no shame in doing the things that give you energy, you can always change course.\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Work-Life Balance\n07:52 Part 1\n09:50 TED Talk\n14:57 Brian Tracy\n19:05 James\n21:46 Part 2\n23:09 Jeff Bezos\n26:07 Michael Gill\n30:39 Sinek\n33:28 James\n34:37 Conclusion\n","date":"19 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/48-worklife-balance/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Work-Life Balance reached a new record of searches in April 2021.\nIt’s a common thought: how can I achieve work-life balance?\n","title":"On Achieving Work-Life Balance","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 48\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nWork-Life Balance # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is just you and me, taking a deep dive into work–life balance. In April 2021, Google tweeted that searches for “work–life balance” had reached their highest point ever. It\u0026rsquo;s a topical problem: how do we balance work and life and live harmoniously in both?\nWork–life balance is often presented as a split between time spent working and time spent elsewhere. Working constantly with no personal life would probably make you unhappy, so perhaps you have dinner with your family one night each week, then two, three or seven. You could move further towards a 50–50 split. The question becomes: what division between work and life makes you happiest? The underlying assumption is that an incorrect balance leaves you unhappy and unfulfilled.\nResearching this episode, I saw people discuss work–life balance as something you can “achieve”. Can it truly be achieved? I doubt it. It\u0026rsquo;s probably always in flux—a delicate dance between work and life. As we\u0026rsquo;ll see, the two may be related rather than divided.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll begin with a relevant personal story, then explore the detail and hear several perspectives.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ll hear from Jeff Bezos, Brian Tracy, a TED Talk, previous podcast guests and Simon Sinek. This subject deserves more discussion, so let\u0026rsquo;s begin with something that happened to me a few months ago.\nMy manager assigned me a project that genuinely excited me. I did considerable work that day, went home for dinner and found myself still thinking about the problem. Around seven, I reopened my laptop and continued until 9:30. I did more over the weekend because the challenge stretched me and taught me a great deal. I enjoyed it, the project succeeded and I learnt enormously. The problem arose when I told others.\nMy manager wondered how I\u0026rsquo;d completed so much after receiving the task on Friday. When I admitted working over the weekend, he praised the result but warned against making it a habit. I needed a life and a sustainable balance that avoided burnout. He was pleased by my enthusiasm and clarified that weekend work wasn\u0026rsquo;t expected, which I understood.\nFriends reacted more strongly. When I said I\u0026rsquo;d chosen to spend the weekend on an enjoyable project, they asked why I was working and what had happened to my work–life balance. I understood their concern, but genuinely preferred that project to any alternative at the time and was glad I did it. They found it strange that somebody could enjoy work enough to choose it outside normal hours.\nThis story reveals two distinct problems. The first is work interrupting important life events because you\u0026rsquo;re forced to work more than you want. The second is cultural discomfort with people who freely choose to work extensively. We\u0026rsquo;ll examine both.\nPart 1 # James: The first problem is work interrupting important things. Imagine a husband at the hospital while his wife gives birth. A client calls, and he leaves this incredible moment, when his wife needs him, to answer. The expectation of work clearly subtracts from life.\nLess extreme versions occur when a client interrupts family dinner or you\u0026rsquo;re repeatedly expected to work outside normal hours until it displaces what you value and causes frustration.\nRather than advise you myself, I\u0026rsquo;ll turn to people who explain it better. First, Ashley Whillans offers three rules for better work–life balance in a TED Talk. Then self-development coach Brian Tracy explains how to optimise office life for better balance.\nTED Talk # Ashley Whillans: For many of us, including me, our days contain a million small interruptions—even on days off. Perhaps you\u0026rsquo;ve taken a call at the beach, texted your boss from the supermarket, or emailed a colleague during a family picnic. We convince ourselves that one email is insignificant, but interruptions have real costs, and smart strategies can protect our time.\nResearch suggests these small moments accumulate into tremendous loss. Work\u0026rsquo;s constant creep into personal life increases stress and undermines happiness. In one study, parents visiting a science museum with their children were instructed to check their phones either as much or as little as possible. Heavy phone users found the experience significantly less meaningful and felt lonelier. In another study, tourists who kept phones out while visiting an iconic church remembered fewer details a week later. My research found that performance-paid employees spent progressively less time with friends and family and more with colleagues and clients.\nOrganisations also pay. Companies lose 32 days of productivity each year to employee depression, often connected to the stress and burnout of an always-on culture. Despite knowing this, I texted a client during my first child\u0026rsquo;s first ultrasound: happy client, guilty mother-to-be. Together, these moments create a life short-changed on meaning, joy, connection and memory.\nAs we remake work after the pandemic, we can create a culture that respects time through small immediate steps. First, reframe rest. The word sounds wonderful, but I immediately worry about insufficient productivity or disappointing colleagues. During time off, enjoy and savour the present rather than treating leisure as an unproductive barrier to work.\nTreat the weekend like a holiday. On Friday afternoon, write down how you would behave on vacation. Perhaps buy wine with your partner and watch Eiffel Tower clips, visit a local café for live music, or take a long midday walk without a phone or agenda. It needn\u0026rsquo;t be expensive or extravagant.\nSecond, create clear boundaries. Rather than saying, “I\u0026rsquo;m out of the office; Slack me whenever,” say, “I\u0026rsquo;ll be offline; call only if it\u0026rsquo;s urgent.” Work publicly as a team to set, measure and enforce personal-time goals: no email between six and eight, family dinner four nights weekly, or a midday jog. Check progress and help teammates who struggle.\nFinally, negotiate for more time to prevent work entering personal life. Business schools teach salary negotiation but rarely time negotiation. Ask for flexibility on adjustable deadlines. If a client requests Monday morning, propose Tuesday afternoon rather than sacrificing the weekend. Don\u0026rsquo;t fear reputational harm; quality matters most. In my data, employees who proactively requested more time reported less stress and burnout and appeared more committed and professional to colleagues.\nThese small changes reframe and reclaim rest. Once you see their impact, you\u0026rsquo;ll demand respect for your approach to time and may inspire others to piece together their fragmented lives.\nBrian Tracy: Hello, I\u0026rsquo;m Brian Tracy.\nBrian Tracy # Brian Tracy: Today we\u0026rsquo;re discussing a major challenge: work–life balance. Most people misunderstand it, imagining a little work, play and weekend time will improve their lives. Instead, ask what you truly want to do with your life.\nHere are time-management tips to improve balance and quality of life. First, use positive affirmations. Positive self-talk sends emotionally and enthusiastically delivered commands from the conscious to the subconscious mind, like a pile driver installing new operating instructions.\nRepeat statements such as, “I am excellent at time management,” “I already have a balanced work and life,” or my favourite, “I use my time well.” Repeated affirmations eventually become subconscious commands, and external behaviour begins reflecting internal programming: as within, so without.\nSecond, visualise your time-management skills. Mental pictures quickly influence the subconscious, so see yourself as organised, efficient and effective. Mentally fake it before you make it. Recall moments when you performed at your best and completed enormous amounts of work. Picture upcoming events unfolding perfectly, with you calm, positive, happy and in complete control and others behaving exactly as desired. Replay that image on your mind\u0026rsquo;s screen.\nThird, act on the visualisation. Work throughout the time you\u0026rsquo;re at work. Be pleasant and friendly, but begin immediately and continue until finished. Peter Drucker says that if socialising consumes more than ten per cent of your time, your time is out of control.\nGoing straight to work helps you stay ahead and finish the day feeling accomplished rather than worrying about lingering tasks. Having worked hard at the office, you\u0026rsquo;ll retain quality time for friends and family.\nJames # James: The central lesson for me is boundaries between work and non-work time. If your hours are nine to five but expectations exceed what fits, explain that your plate is full and that accepting something new requires removing another task.\nSuppose somebody offers an exciting project when you\u0026rsquo;re already busy. Accepting it would create stress, force unwanted overtime or reduce quality. Rather than bluntly refusing, say: “Thanks for thinking of me. This looks exciting and I\u0026rsquo;d love to contribute, but my plate currently contains these other priorities. I can\u0026rsquo;t complete everything within the required timeframe and quality. What should we remove so I can do this well?”\nThat conversation protects boundaries from creeping by ten minutes at a time until you\u0026rsquo;re unexpectedly working seven to seven. If you freely want those hours, that\u0026rsquo;s different. When you don\u0026rsquo;t, defend the boundary. Choosing extensive work presents a separate problem.\nPart 2 # James: Part two concerns people who aren\u0026rsquo;t forced to work extra but choose to. Society often assumes that anybody working long hours has failed at balance and treats the choice as strange because most people seek to minimise work.\nFor those who freely choose more work, perhaps “balance” is misleading. Work and life may be integrated and harmonious. Let\u0026rsquo;s hear Jeff Bezos and others discuss that view.\nJeff Bezos # Mark Bezos: How do you establish the work–life balance everybody discusses? You live a big life.\nJeff Bezos: I receive that question constantly when teaching leadership classes to Amazon\u0026rsquo;s most senior executives and speaking to interns. I dislike “work–life balance” because it\u0026rsquo;s misleading. I prefer “work–life harmony”. If work energises and fulfils me, makes me feel valuable and part of a team, I become a better husband and father. Happiness at home likewise makes me a better employee and boss.\nCrunch periods may depend on weekly hours, but that\u0026rsquo;s rarely the central issue.\nDoes work deprive you of energy or generate it? Everybody knows people in both camps. Some enter a meeting and add energy; others enter and deflate the entire room. Decide which person you\u0026rsquo;ll be.\nMark Bezos: The same applies at home.\nJeff Bezos: Exactly. It\u0026rsquo;s a flywheel or circle, not a balance. Balance is a dangerous metaphor because it implies a strict trade-off. You could be unemployed with unlimited family time but so depressed and demoralised that your family wishes you\u0026rsquo;d take a vacation from them.\nHours aren\u0026rsquo;t the primary issue, although 100-hour weeks may reveal limits. I\u0026rsquo;ve never had a problem because both sides of my life give me energy. That\u0026rsquo;s what I recommend to interns and executives.\nMichael Gill # Michael: James, when you say you do something for your employer, can you think of examples where you have nothing personally invested?\nJames: Even a basic task such as sending emails is mutually beneficial because you\u0026rsquo;re paid. It also advances your career, improves your employability and develops skills that benefit you.\nMichael: That\u0026rsquo;s one of the ideas I hoped you\u0026rsquo;d reach. Even a simple email can develop your knowledge, skills and value if you view every interaction that way.\nSince retiring from the partnership in 2008, I\u0026rsquo;ve had more time to read and think, and no longer see work–life balance. Work shouldn\u0026rsquo;t merely fill time while you wait for life\u0026rsquo;s real joys. When you largely think, “I love doing this. This is me. I love these people and the opportunities to develop as a human being,” you stop experiencing it as work. It helps you return to your family each day as a decent human being, and you no longer need to leave work at the front door.\nPeter: That\u0026rsquo;s something everybody can strive for.\nMichael: It isn\u0026rsquo;t easy because much of life competes with reaching that state. Your generation faces severe lifestyle and financial pressures. People lock themselves and those closest to them into needing a job that pays at least a fixed amount every month.\nYoung lawyers from large firms sometimes come to me five years after admission and say, almost as though admitting failure, “This isn\u0026rsquo;t really for me. I don\u0026rsquo;t know how to tell my parents. I have a job in the M\u0026amp;A department at Freehills or DLA Piper, and I absolutely hate it.”\nI ask how important money is, because if it isn\u0026rsquo;t paramount, the world is their oyster as a lawyer.\nMichael: But if your first requirement is at least $100,000 or $200,000 a year and continued progress on the slippery partnership ladder, you\u0026rsquo;ve closed off many options, perhaps including your authentic ones.\nSinek # Simon Sinek: I\u0026rsquo;m uncomfortable with work–life balance because balance involves opposing forces. Why should work and life oppose each other? If you\u0026rsquo;re struggling, no amount of yoga or extra vacation will fix it. And working on the beach isn\u0026rsquo;t a vacation; it\u0026rsquo;s telecommuting from the beach.\nBuild a life where work and personal life flow smoothly rather than remaining confined to specific hours. Choose where to give effort. If it\u0026rsquo;s four in the afternoon but a beautiful day makes you want to run, go running.\nI mistakenly treated activities supporting my mind, body and spirit as suitable only after hours or on weekends. Yet I can\u0026rsquo;t control when ideas arrive—sometimes Saturday or evening—and can\u0026rsquo;t always control when I need a break. Sometimes breaks are felt rather than planned.\nOur small company has become good, although imperfect, at accommodating this. Responsibility sometimes takes precedence, but somebody wanting an afternoon with their children puts “with my kids” in the calendar.\nAt an earlier business, we offered perhaps five annual “duvet days”. If you woke healthy but didn\u0026rsquo;t want to work or preferred the beach on a beautiful day, you left a morning message saying you were taking one and would return tomorrow. People found that amazing, but employees already do it by claiming a 24-hour illness and visiting the beach. Call it what it is.\nSchedule midday gym time if that\u0026rsquo;s when you prefer exercising. The more seamlessly we integrate work and life, the more we enjoy both, because they aren\u0026rsquo;t opposites.\nJames # James: Those are excellent insights. I particularly like Bezos\u0026rsquo;s description of work–life harmony: fulfilling work makes you better at home, which in turn improves your work, creating a mutually reinforcing flywheel.\nBusinessman Alex Hormozi tweeted, “Work–life balance assumes you\u0026rsquo;re not living when you work. In my experience, it\u0026rsquo;s been the opposite. When I work, I live.” Those who want to work and achieve more shouldn\u0026rsquo;t feel ashamed. Nothing is wrong with freely choosing extra weekend work. Don\u0026rsquo;t let friends, society or culture restrain what you genuinely want to do and achieve.\nConclusion # James: That brings us to the end of today\u0026rsquo;s episode. We\u0026rsquo;ve covered valuable ground around the difficult question of how much time to give work and life. I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt that they aren\u0026rsquo;t distinct; they can exist in harmony. Energising work improves your personal life, and a fulfilling personal life helps you enjoy work, reinforcing both.\nI hope this episode was useful. If you enjoyed it, please consider subscribing to the weekly Graduate Theory newsletter. We have many episodes ahead. Thanks for joining me, and I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 48\n","date":"19 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/48-worklife-balance/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 48\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Achieving Work-Life Balance","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":"This article was written by me. Subscribe to get updates to your inbox\nSubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit This article appears on my personal website, hosted with GCS and Cloudflare.\nWhat is a Static Site? # A static website is a website that uses pre-built HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.\nThis means that the website loads quicker, and it can be much easier to create.\nThis is in contrast to a dynamic site, which renders the website at the time of the request.\nStatic sites cannot offer some of the features of a dynamic site however they are often\nfaster more secure highly scalable There are many static website generators out there that make it easy to create a unique website.\nThe one that I use for my site is Hugo.\nWhy Use Hugo? # Hugo is a static site generator.\nThere are many great templates to create website with Hugo.\nHugo allows me to create a great looking site very easily and effectively.\nSetup # So, how does this work?\nTools used\nHugo Cloudflare Github Terraform Google Domains Github Actions My website is found here - https://github.com/jamesfricker/jfricker\nCreate Site # The first step is to create your website.\nStart by downloading Hugo, choosing a template and adding some content.\nCopy site to GCS # We need to copy your site into a GCS bucket.\nFirst, we need to create a bucket. (I\u0026rsquo;m assuming you\u0026rsquo;ve set up your Terraform and connected it to a backend)\nI had to create my bucket with the same name as my domain, www.jfricker.com.\nHere is my Terraform for this:\nresource \u0026#34;google_storage_bucket\u0026#34; \u0026#34;site_bucket\u0026#34; { name = var.site_bucket_name location = var.region storage_class = \u0026#34;COLDLINE\u0026#34; force_destroy = true uniform_bucket_level_access = true website { main_page_suffix = \u0026#34;index.html\u0026#34; not_found_page = \u0026#34;404.html\u0026#34; } cors { origin = [\u0026#34;http://www.jfricker.com\u0026#34;] method = [\u0026#34;GET\u0026#34;, \u0026#34;HEAD\u0026#34;, \u0026#34;PUT\u0026#34;, \u0026#34;POST\u0026#34;, \u0026#34;DELETE\u0026#34;] response_header = [\u0026#34;*\u0026#34;] max_age_seconds = 3600 } } # Make bucket public resource \u0026#34;google_storage_bucket_iam_member\u0026#34; \u0026#34;member\u0026#34; { provider = google-beta bucket = google_storage_bucket.site_bucket.name role = \u0026#34;roles/storage.objectViewer\u0026#34; member = \u0026#34;allUsers\u0026#34; } Next, let\u0026rsquo;s create your site.\nRun this command to generate your site\nhugo -minify Next, let\u0026rsquo;s publish your site to your GCS bucket.\nEdit your config.toml file in your Hugo site to contain a deployment block.\n[deployment] [[deployment.targets]] name = \u0026#34;DEPLOYMENT_NAME\u0026#34; URL=\u0026#34;gs://BUCKET_NAME\u0026#34; Next, run this command to deploy your site to the bucket.\nhugo deploy Now, check the bucket you created. Your site files should now be inside the bucket.\nCloudflare Domain Setup # I have used Google Domains to host my domain, but Cloudflare for my certificates.\nI connected my site to Cloudflare, and had to add the following rules.\nA DNS Rule Your domain won\u0026rsquo;t automatically connect to GCS, we need to set that up.\nSince I\u0026rsquo;m using Google Domains, Cloudflare already knows about my google services.\nWe need to add this DNS rule.\nCNAME www c.storage.googleapis.com This tells our site to look at Google Storage for the site content.\nWWW Redirect The \u0026lt;WWW.SITE\u0026gt; and .SITE are different. We need to create our site in such a way that these two sites are the same.\nWe use a forwarding rule.\nForward the https://SITE to https://www.SITE\nThis set up my site correctly.\nCI with GitHub Actions # The finally piece of the puzzle was to setup CI for the site.\nTo do this, we need\nGithub Actions Service account for Terraform I have one Github Action for building the Terraform.\nhttps://github.com/jamesfricker/jfricker/blob/master/.github/workflows/terraform.yaml\nAnd another for rebuilding my site\nhttps://github.com/jamesfricker/jfricker/blob/master/.github/workflows/hugo_deploy.yaml\nWhen we push to the master branch, our site is rebuilt.\nPerfect!\nConclusion # This project was a great way to get introduced to building a GCP project and hosting something.\nSee the full repo for all my code\nhttps://github.com/jamesfricker/jfricker\nAnd subscribe to get updates from me\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit Sites I Used # https://laptrinhx.com/setup-a-static-website-cdn-with-terraform-on-gcp-2434628250/\nhttps://realjenius.com/2019/11/25/cloudbuild-hugo-gcs/\nhttps://richrose.dev/posts/cloud/google-cloud/gcp-hugo-static-site/\nhttps://medium.com/google-cloud/deploy-a-static-html-website-to-google-cloud-storage-via-terraform-b26ce2fc582a\n","date":"14 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/hosting-hugo-on-gcp-with-terraform/","section":"Writing","summary":"This article was written by me. Subscribe to get updates to your inbox\nSubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit This article appears on my personal website, hosted with GCS and Cloudflare.\n","title":"Hosting my Hugo Site on GCP with Terraform","type":"posts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This man is incredible.\nNever have I heard so much wisdom packed into a single hour!\nIn this episode, you\u0026rsquo;ll hear gems like 👇\nbusyness is very different to achievement MLK didn\u0026rsquo;t say, \u0026ldquo;I have a plan\u0026rdquo; long term consistency always beats short term intensity well done is better than well said I\u0026rsquo;m excited to share this episode with you.\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nDave Lourdes is a professional speaker, elite performance coach and facilitator. His experience exceeds three decades and over 700 workshops, seminars and special events, addressing more than 15,000 people in talks and seminars worldwide, from everyday employees to middle management as well as C-Level audiences.\n🤝 Connect with Dave # Website - https://www.davelourdes.com/\nLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/davelourdes/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Confidence # Dave says that confidence is one of the most important traits a person can have.\nThere are three things you need to be confident:\ncourage conscious choice consistency Decide to be confident.\nAct with courage.\nBe consistent.\nThree Kinds of People # Dave shared with me that he thinks there are three kinds of people:\nKnowers Learners Implementers Knowers like to know things. They know, and then they stop.\nLearners like learning. They learn things, reading books and doing courses. They know so much about everything.\nFinally, the implementers. They might not know as much as the knowers or have learned as much as the learners, but they are actually doing what they seek to do.\nAs Dave said, it\u0026rsquo;s one thing to learn about riding a bike, and quite a different thing to actually get on one and start riding.\nWhich one are you?\nPrinciples # Dave shared with me the four principles that he lives his life by:\nYou choose how you think You choose how you communicate You have the capacity to change You can always improve I love these and will make sure to come back to them.\nWhich principles do you live your life by?\nRecommended Books # Dave recommended some books during the episode. Here they are:\nEmotional Intelligence - Daniel Goleman The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People - Stephen Covey Think and Grow Rich - Napoleon Hill Mindset - Carol Dweck Man\u0026rsquo;s Search for Meaning - Viktor E. Frankl 📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Intro\n00:17 From Social Anxiety to Coaching\n08:26 10% of your income on skill development\n20:01 Improving your confidence\n26:43 Implementing Advice\n29:18 Unblock your performance\n38:56 Dave Advice for Graduates\n46:12 Outro\n","date":"12 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/47-dave-lourdes-becoming-best-can/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This man is incredible.\nNever have I heard so much wisdom packed into a single hour!\n","title":"Dave Lourdes | On Becoming The Best You Can Be","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 47\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # Dave: Think about Martin Luther King Jr. He inspired a million people to march on Washington because he said, “I have a dream.” He didn\u0026rsquo;t say, “I have a plan.” Plans bore people.\nFrom Social Anxiety to Coaching # James: You work as a coach and speaker in team-building and high performance after spending time in the corporate world. How did that transition begin? Was there a moment when you committed completely to this direction?\nDave: I\u0026rsquo;ll give you the Twenty20 rather than the Test-match version. As a young man, I was extremely shy and panicked whenever I met somebody.\nI avoided all social contact outside my family. This went far beyond shyness and interfered with my life. After starting my career at ANZ, I skipped work whenever we had training because being around people was so debilitating.\nI knew I had to act. Executive coaching may have existed, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t know about it, so I found a psychologist near ANZ in Melbourne. I showed her my payslip—about $12,000 or $13,000 a year—and said I\u0026rsquo;d committed 10% of my income to personal development. I asked how many sessions it would buy.\nAfter hearing my symptoms, she diagnosed social anxiety disorder, or social phobia. Even shaking somebody\u0026rsquo;s hand produced a visceral response.\nWhen I met somebody, my tongue felt three times its normal size and I choked. I carried water everywhere and drank quickly to make the sensation recede. This was before drink bottles were common, so I looked like a teenager carrying a primary-school bottle. The phobia was destroying me, and people with it become embarrassed about everything.\nUntil I married, even my parents didn\u0026rsquo;t know I was seeing a psychologist. I hid it from every friend. One day after an appointment, I was walking along Collins Street towards my office and passed an Angus \u0026amp; Robertson bookshop with a dollar bin of unwanted books.\nI bought Getting the Best Out of Yourself and Others for one dollar. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t read a book since high school, but devoured it within a day and a half. It transformed how I carried myself and what I aspired to do.\nI committed to practising everything I read, using work as a living laboratory. The more I practised, the more people attracted rather than frightened me. At 19, I committed to reading 30 psychology books every year to understand human behaviour. I\u0026rsquo;ve maintained that minimum—not to impress you, but to emphasise what worked for me—and became fascinated by people.\nWhatever role I held at ANZ, sales and completed projects were satisfying, but helping people grow, overcome fear or transform something holding them back truly excited me. I turned that passion into a career after receiving invitations to present at internal team-building events.\nAlthough I was a project manager and team leader, I loved that element more than my formal role. I became obsessed with reading and helping people.\nWord spread at ANZ, and strangers called saying they\u0026rsquo;d heard I was “the job whisperer”. I loved helping people secure jobs. Before charging a dollar, I documented more than 1,000 hours of free coaching on interview nerves, conversations with bosses and personal motivation. During my final five years there, ANZ let me make coaching, team-building and personal-transformation events my career.\nJames: People sometimes say, “Make your mess your message.” When you overcome something you found extraordinarily difficult, you gain a perspective others may lack and can teach it with greater depth. Your struggle clearly shaped your work.\nDave: Absolutely. Rock bottom teaches what mountaintops cannot. Anybody who has experienced social anxiety or phobia understands that it harms every area of life. Climbing that mountain was a brilliant teacher, and I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t take it back for a moment.\n10% of your income on skill development # James: You transformed something deeply inhibiting into almost a superpower. You also mentioned spending 10% of your income on developing skills. Do you still do that?\nDave: I\u0026rsquo;ve done it since I was 19 and still do. I divide needs into three categories: important now, important next and important longer-term. I identify something I or my clients need, find the best person in that field, then travel to them, buy their program or receive coaching.\nPeople instantly find money to replace a phone or repair a car, but hesitate over a $40 book and seek it for five or ten dollars. Our approach to careers is often the opposite of professional sport, and I want people to reverse it.\nAt work, we spend 90% of our time performing and perhaps 10% training, which we resist because we think we already know it. Athletes spend 90% on coaching, reflection, fine-tuning and cleaning messy corners, then perform for 10%, continually improving. The corporate world is backwards. I\u0026rsquo;ve maintained my obsession with learning, although that\u0026rsquo;s easier because I enjoy it.\nThese principles apply whether you\u0026rsquo;re beginning, emerging, experienced or established. Solid principles work in any weather and at every stage. Many people treat careers as hobbies, while professionals go to the nth degree to become their best. That inspires and informs my behaviour.\nJames: That 10% may otherwise become savings or a stock-market investment earning five or ten per cent. Investing it in yourself—particularly as a business owner—could produce a multiple by teaching you one valuable thing.\nDave: For me, the return is orders of magnitude and can be instantaneous. As a professional coach, speaker and facilitator, I receive both a commercial return and the reward of seeing clients improve.\nWhen Zoom moved everything online, I spent the 10% on equipment so remote calls felt like being together. I received technical coaching on lighting and audio. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t visit clients, so the camera experience needed to feel alive. Client needs dictate these investments.\nThey prompt spending I would never have considered—such as $25,000 on equipment, where I may have been overcharged because I bought whatever experts recommended. It keeps me on the edge. As clients\u0026rsquo; challenges become more complex, I learn, invest or find an expert coach. I wish more people did that for their careers.\nJames: When you began at 19, were you primarily seeking books and psychological support? Which skills did you want to improve?\nDave: I was seeking what my clients still seek: confidence. My clients span diverse industries, roles and ages, from Year 11 and 12 students preparing for corporate life to CEOs, business owners, gym and hairdressing operators, bankers and lawyers. If I lined up 100, everyone\u0026rsquo;s root issue would be confidence—the same thing I sought when facing social anxiety.\nI recommend three outcomes. First, understand and tap into your innate strengths—your superpowers—and ask, “How do I show up as genuine standout talent?”\nPeople who feel stuck often try to escape through harder work rather than unleashing confidence. Regardless of career stage, confidence remains the primary focus, as it was for me over many years.\nSecond is inspiring boldness, which goes beyond leadership. Martin Luther King Jr. inspired a million people to march on Washington by declaring a dream, not a plan that sounded like work. I dislike “team-building”; placing five people in a room technically creates a team. A leader should instead ask how to unleash fearless contributors driven by purpose, without constant cheerleading.\nSuch teams escape survival mode and reveal their character. Third—and hardest at a larger level—is change: be an intentional change-maker. I hate “If it ain\u0026rsquo;t broke, don\u0026rsquo;t fix it.” We wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have Uber or Airbnb under that principle. Whatever your role, ask how to create transformational impact—a caterpillar becoming a butterfly rather than an incremental change. Use that as your scorecard. Transformational people become more visible, valuable and connected.\nMove from effort to impact and expand your influence, because busyness differs greatly from achievement. Those three outcomes—innate strengths, inspiring boldness and intentional change-making—guide what my clients and I develop.\nImproving your confidence # James: How can somebody improve their confidence? Perhaps courage comes first: you can\u0026rsquo;t confidently tie your shoes before learning, but courage lets you try and eventually become confident.\nDave: You\u0026rsquo;re right. The three parts are courage, conscious choice and consistency. Take public speaking, often described as the world\u0026rsquo;s greatest fear. If your absent boss asks you to run a team meeting, you may panic internally. Courage begins with honestly acknowledging that you need to improve. You can\u0026rsquo;t change what you don\u0026rsquo;t acknowledge.\nMany know they should change, but action requires guts. Next, consciously choose to show up rather than waiting for ten hours\u0026rsquo; sleep, 22-degree weather, a slight breeze and a good mood.\nThird is consistency—the most important. One speech at your brother\u0026rsquo;s wedding won\u0026rsquo;t master public speaking, just as a quarterly gym visit won\u0026rsquo;t make you fit. Long-term consistency always beats short-term intensity.\nShort-term intensity is becoming fired up by Michael Jordan\u0026rsquo;s The Last Dance or The Biggest Loser. When that television show aired, everybody bought treadmills that research suggests they used only three to seven times. They\u0026rsquo;re excellent expensive clothes racks.\nDave: Intensity is cramming for a school presentation or wedding speech. Consistency means doing small things when you don\u0026rsquo;t feel like it. I visit the gym every morning. Summer is easy, but winter is difficult. With two children, 4:30 a.m. is the only time exercise fits.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t wait until November and attempt to become fit in the 30 days before Christmas. Consistency is confidence\u0026rsquo;s primary building block. In fitness, courage means admitting you need change; conscious choice means joining a gym and obtaining a program; consistency means actually attending. Many listeners own unused memberships.\nThey experienced intensity without consistency. Courage, conscious choice and consistency build confidence, but with people, one size fits none. Standard principles exist, but everybody needs a different blend. If I chose one, it would be consistency: begin something small and continue, whether fitness, healthy eating or meditation.\nJames: The gym analogy applies broadly: avoid unhelpful comparisons, remain consistent, track progress and allocate structured time. Those principles produce success elsewhere.\nDave: Since one size fits none, I\u0026rsquo;ll note that I always compare myself to others because it inspires rather than demoralises me. Believing I\u0026rsquo;m the worst person at the gym motivates me. I also track my entire life through apps. Find the combination of strategies that works for you.\nImplementing Advice # James: As you did with that book, you need to turn your life into an experiment: consume advice, apply it and observe what happens. Don\u0026rsquo;t merely read, understand and move on. Ask how it applies to you and whether it works. Something may help most of 1,000 people, but you still need to test it personally.\nDave: Reading is easy; implementation is hard. There are three groups: knowers who believe Instagram taught them everything, learners addicted to acquiring insights, and implementers who act.\nImagine reading about a bicycle without ever seeing one. A book could explain the thin tyres, balanced weight distribution and necessary pedal cadence. You could study for days and still fail to ride. A knower claims mastery after reading; a learner seeks another book and podcast; an implementer mounts the bike, falls, grazes their knees and progresses further in an hour than a researcher does in weeks.\nImplementation is critical. “Well done is better than well said” has always stayed with me.\nUnblock your performance # James: I\u0026rsquo;ll borrow that. Across career stages, are there common blockages people can remove to elevate workplace performance beyond confidence?\nDave: Begin with four powerful assumptions: you choose how you think, choose how you communicate, have the capacity to change, and can always improve. You aren\u0026rsquo;t pre-programmed and are responsible for your words.\nAs I mentioned, I fell into coaching by reading books and enthusiastically forcing their lessons upon friends.\nI was so excited that people began seeking advice, and coaching emerged almost accidentally through sharing with friends. In an organisation, everybody should ask how to become more visible, valuable and connected.\nFocus first on personal development. As during a cabin-pressure loss, secure your own oxygen mask before helping others: get yourself right. I call that “great me”. Next comes “great we”: leadership. Despite thousands of leadership books published yearly, a simple test is, “If everybody did what I do, would the team improve?”\nThird, expand your focus to changing or transforming the organisation. As a sports fanatic, I love players who transform football or cricket. I\u0026rsquo;d offer Hawthorn examples, but that may alienate people because I\u0026rsquo;m a mad Hawthorn supporter. Who do you barrack for?\nJames: Adelaide Crows, unfortunately at the moment.\nDave: In 1991, when the Crows entered the league, their first match at Football Park was against Hawthorn. I think we lost by 85 points, although Hawthorn won the premiership that year.\nThe three levels are great me through personal development, great we through the team, and great us through outward impact. Your outward impact might shift an industry or transform a process. Focus on personal development, leadership and organisational change, always beginning with yourself and tidying the messy corners of your behaviour.\nFor personal development, Daniel Goleman\u0026rsquo;s Emotional Intelligence is among my five favourites of more than 700 books. Other favourites include Stephen Covey\u0026rsquo;s The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Napoleon Hill\u0026rsquo;s Think and Grow Rich, Carol Dweck\u0026rsquo;s Mindset, and Viktor Frankl\u0026rsquo;s Man\u0026rsquo;s Search for Meaning.\nFrankl\u0026rsquo;s account of imprisonment in Auschwitz transformed me. I never again felt like a victim or sorry for myself; what he endured and his return from adversity are mind-bending. I believe a famous Hollywood figure recently bought the film rights, although I generally dislike watching adaptations after reading a book.\nJames: Especially for a story like that. It would be difficult to adapt. Reading provides knowledge beyond learning alone or asking friends, particularly from people outside your immediate circle.\nDave: I also watch many TED Talks and particularly enjoy learning outside my own or a client\u0026rsquo;s industry. When working with BHP, mining or finance, I seek stories and inspiration elsewhere. Banks traditionally opened nine to four, Monday to Friday, assuming customers were available, until service-oriented outsiders noted that shift workers could buy a burger at 10 p.m. and expected similar accessibility elsewhere.\nBefore your time, liking one song required buying an entire CD. The playlist economy lets you select only the tracks you want. Examples from other industries can be translated into your career, business or team.\nJames: Much innovation comes from applying an idea from one field to another rather than inventing something without precedent. Iterating on something elsewhere and using it in a new context creates novelty.\nDave Advice for Graduates # James: Graduate Theory is for university students and early-career professionals. Looking back, what advice would you give the young Dave Lourdes or somebody starting today?\nDave: Do you have time for another podcast? My life and career have been a series of mistakes. Don\u0026rsquo;t avoid speaking or participating because you\u0026rsquo;re young, uncertain or outside your expertise.\nI wish I\u0026rsquo;d shown more gratitude and empathy earlier. You can never say thank you enough or care too much about people. I began overly goal-oriented and ego-driven, seeking major projects to feel good about myself.\nI worked ridiculous hours—hard rather than smart. I needed empathy, recognition that everybody differs, gratitude and a healthier ego. I avoided questions for fear of appearing stupid, but if everybody did that, nobody would ask anything.\nAsk questions and attend work events. Skipping them is a career-limiting move because you\u0026rsquo;re part of the team. You may be tired or unenthusiastic, but make time. I now obsess over building genuine relationships and wish I\u0026rsquo;d begun sooner.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t schedule something, it won\u0026rsquo;t happen. “I\u0026rsquo;ll read more” or “I\u0026rsquo;ll exercise” needs a time. I exercise at 4:30 a.m. Monday to Friday, sleep in until 6:30 on Saturday, and rest Sunday.\nOne of the most powerful things you can say is, “I don\u0026rsquo;t know.” I wish I\u0026rsquo;d said it sooner rather than pretending and secretly researching later.\nExpect to become stuck; it happens to everybody. Ask for help sooner. Don\u0026rsquo;t globalise a local issue. Being stuck is temporary—a stain, not a tattoo.\nA personal trainer taught me another lesson. When you think you\u0026rsquo;re dead, they demand five more repetitions. You hate them, swear under your breath, pay them and return next week. My first trainer, Michael, constantly said, “Just one more.” Now whenever I reach my apparent limit, I do one more.\nIf I could choose one lesson, it would be that self-awareness is king. Emotional intelligence includes several markers, but self-awareness is the beast. Master it and you master your life: know what excites and deflates you, what derails and restores you, and how you respond to confrontation or lost confidence. I also wish I\u0026rsquo;d hired a coach earlier. You\u0026rsquo;d better stop me before I add more wishes.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;re at the end. Thank you for sharing your wisdom; the conversation has been fascinating and given me many takeaways. Where can listeners learn more about you?\nDave: It\u0026rsquo;s entirely my pleasure.\nDave: My website, davelourdes.com, is currently being rebuilt. People can connect with me on LinkedIn. I also run a private Facebook group called The Leaders Lab, where I regularly share free information about personal growth, leadership and change. I accept all requests.\nJames: Fantastic. Thanks so much, mate.\nDave: I love what you\u0026rsquo;re doing to help people. It\u0026rsquo;s excellent.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and everything I learnt, go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll get my takeaways and information about each episode straight in your inbox.\nThanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 47\n","date":"12 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/47-dave-lourdes-becoming-best-can/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 47\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Dave Lourdes | On Becoming The Best You Can Be","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hey there, I\u0026rsquo;ve recently moved the Graduate Theory newsletter from Ghost to Beehiiv. You might notice a few changes in this email.\nThe Graduate Theory website has also been updated. You can explore every episode and newsletter here.\nNow, here\u0026rsquo;s this week\u0026rsquo;s edition 👇\nWould you describe yourself as a creative person?\nDid you know that 98% of five-year-olds are classed as creative geniuses?\nIn today\u0026rsquo;s show, we dive deep into creativity and discover how we can reconnect with the creative flows inside us all.\nThis article was sent to subscribers of the Graduate Theory newsletter.\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nMykel Dixon is an award-winning speaker, author, musician \u0026amp; globally recognised authority on creativity, leadership and the human future of work.\n🤝 Connect with Mykel # Website - https://www.mykeldixon.com/\nLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mykeldixon/\nInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/mykeldixon/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Creativity Is Better for Everyone # When chatting with Mykel about creativity, we discussed how re-igniting your creativity is not just good for you. It won\u0026rsquo;t only make you feel better, love better or lead better, but it will also do the same for those around you.\nCreativity and good vibes aren\u0026rsquo;t just for your own benefit, but also for the benefit of others.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t be a dick about it # How do we manage creativity while working towards our goals?\nThis is a tough one. Mykel had this to say:\nYou can run and you can sweat and you can be in the gym longer than everyone else, but you don\u0026rsquo;t have to be a prick about it.\nWe can go and achieve the things we want in a way that lifts others up. Being someone that wants to achieve does not need to come at the cost of being a good person.\nHow to Re-Engage # We have lost some of our creativity. Lost some of the energy we once had as children.\nHow can we find this again?\nMykel says to find what inspires you and to let it affect you.\nIn fact, this is the purpose of the arts.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the whole purpose and intent of art is to get you to think differently and open you up and connect ideas for you.\nCreativity won\u0026rsquo;t just come into your life without you changing anything.\nConnect with something, do something different, and take a different approach.\nTake one step toward creativity, and it will take many steps for you.\nGet in the Ring # The best way to improve creativity, public speaking or whatever else you would like to do, is simply to do it.\nMykel shared some great advice about public speaking, and how we can sit and strategise about the optimal way to improve our skills.\nThe best way, however, is simply to get started and get in the ring.\nStop strategising and get in the game!\nGet The Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Mykel Dixon\n00:29 Creativity as we get older\n03:56 Why does creativity matter\n06:40 How can we re-engage with creativity\n10:26 The Shift in Work\n18:14 Change comes from you\n21:13 Thoughts to Reality is a Muscle\n25:16 Creativity is life or death\n32:01 You being at your best makes things better for everyone\n35:26 Balancing Fun and Work\n37:16 Re-Engaging with Creativity\n42:52 How to be a good public speaker\n50:25 Advice for Graduates\n56:51 Outro\n","date":"5 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/46-mykel-dixon-rediscovering-creativity/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hey there, I’ve recently moved the Graduate Theory newsletter from Ghost to Beehiiv. You might notice a few changes in this email.\n","title":"Mykel Dixon | On Rediscovering Your Creativity","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 46\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nMykel: If we aren\u0026rsquo;t careful, creativity can be taken from us. But what happens to our lives and careers if we engage with it, make time, invest, act courageously and tend the garden? The opportunities are extraordinary, James.\nCreativity as we get older # James: I studied maths at university, so I love a good statistic. Your book describes research that classified 98% of five-year-olds as creative geniuses, but only 2% of those same people by age 30. That seems astonishing and presumably affects almost all of us. Why does our creativity decline as we age?\nMykel: Look at how we work and consume information. At the tail end of the Industrial Revolution, we\u0026rsquo;ve been heavily and consistently shaped for decades. That research came from George Land, who designed one of the first creativity tests for NASA to help find the most creative minds for the moon mission.\nAfter its success, he tried it with five-year-olds. The results suggested that roughly 98% of people are born with this creative capacity. It falls to 30% at age ten, 12% at 15, and about 2% by 30, when people have jobs, homes and children. George famously concluded, “The research is conclusive: non-creative behaviour is learnt.”\nIn other words, we\u0026rsquo;re taught and conditioned out of our natural creativity. I\u0026rsquo;m not criticising the education system or blaming anybody. The principles driving much of modern society have prioritised rationality, linearity, logic, pragmatism, optimisation, efficiency, productivity and growth at all costs, including extraction and exploitation.\nLike a factory line, you shave the edges, tighten the process, minimise materials, cut costs and maximise profit. That mindset has profoundly affected us as human beings. We first need to recognise and accept that.\nWhy does creativity matter # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve seen creativity and wellbeing become closely connected when people engage with it. Why is creativity so important?\nMykel: It\u0026rsquo;s how we create our world. I define creativity as a life force: pure potential gathering momentum and producing results. It\u0026rsquo;s our natural self-expression—the energy that gets each person up and imagining new possibilities. We perceive information, process it through our mind, subconscious, heart, soul and senses, then create something and give it back to the world almost in gratitude for everything we\u0026rsquo;ve received.\nEverything we use is the outcome of creativity. Riverside, which we\u0026rsquo;re using to record this podcast, began as an idea that was iterated, created, coded, tested and produced. Our clothes, food and cars embody value somebody gave the world. The entire process is creative and natural. Our difficulty began when we stopped seeing it as organic.\nA rainforest is pure creativity: fertile soil reaches towards the sun, rain produces growth, and mushrooms transmit information. It\u0026rsquo;s a constant organic explosion of possibility. We isolate elements, grow only one part, segregate everything and place it into boxes, but humans and life don\u0026rsquo;t work that way. We must return to the organic creativity we were born with.\nHow can we re-engage with creativity # James: Most people haven\u0026rsquo;t completely lost that essence; education, society and other influences have hidden it. How can somebody re-engage with it?\nMykel: What lights you up, Jimmy? What do you love?\nJames: I would measure it through flow: activities that lock me into the zone until I look at the clock and four hours have passed.\nMykel: What\u0026rsquo;s an example?\nJames: Recently, it\u0026rsquo;s programming. I become absorbed in a problem, time flies and the work feels satisfying. I can easily get lost in it, although that\u0026rsquo;s probably a nerdy example.\nMykel: That\u0026rsquo;s excellent. Everyone has their thing, and whatever moves you is the access point—the way back. It could be listening to 1950s rock and roll, people-watching over wine at a café, watching old films or science fiction, or playing with your children. Find whatever makes you feel that life is amazing.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve lost our capacity to feel, although feelings are neon signs for what matters to us and a gateway back to creativity and self-expression. We\u0026rsquo;ve robbed, starved and suppressed those feelings, mocked them as inappropriate or hidden them to avoid appearing weak. Become attuned to what moves you.\nFor me, it\u0026rsquo;s nature and the arts. Both affect you beyond the thinking mind; they reach your body, emotions and soul. Surround yourself with more of that. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to do anything—let it affect and move you. The next step will present itself. Creativity is a life-giving force when it returns.\nJames: There\u0026rsquo;s something special about a long walk in nature, looking at the stars, or jumping around and singing when your favourite song plays. You connect with something that\u0026rsquo;s often lost in the professional environment: the pure joy of those moments.\nThe Shift in Work # Mykel: You\u0026rsquo;re relatively new to your professional career and entered a corporate environment transformed by the pandemic and working from home. You love coding, mathematics, numbers and complex problems. Has the workplace matched what you expected at school and university?\nJames: One aspect was completely different. In my final year at university, I had an excellent, highly structured study routine that I\u0026rsquo;d like to replicate one day.\nI\u0026rsquo;d wake at 6:30, leave home at seven, park at 7:30, walk to university and begin around eight. After four or five hours of deep, focused study, I\u0026rsquo;d visit the gym and be home by two or three, well ahead of every deadline. I thought that was how work should happen.\nDuring an internship in my penultimate summer, I naively told my future supervisor that I worked best by arriving early, entering the zone in the morning and saving meetings for the afternoon. He looked at me as if to say, “That\u0026rsquo;s not how we do things.” Once I started, I realised I had little control over my schedule and had to participate in fixed activities. That wasn\u0026rsquo;t entirely bad, but it differed from my expectations.\nMykel: That\u0026rsquo;s a beautiful example. My friend Aaron McEwan works at Gartner and researches the future of work with large organisations. He says the pandemic is driving a transformation comparable to businesses\u0026rsquo; awakening to customer experience a decade or two ago.\nCompanies realised they couldn\u0026rsquo;t send one email to 500,000 subscribers. They needed to personalise, understand what customers wanted and design better products and experiences. Listening would make customers more likely to buy.\nThe same shift is now occurring with employee experience. Businesses must understand their people and design environments they want to join, or they\u0026rsquo;ll go elsewhere. Your first instinct after university was to say that you understood yourself: rising early, doing four hours of deep work, visiting the gym and then attending meetings would work best.\nAn entrenched supervisor saw only that it wasn\u0026rsquo;t their normal method. The opportunity was to ask what worked best and design around it. Employment fundamentally aims to gain your maximum value. If you\u0026rsquo;ve already explained how to obtain that value, the company should thank you and collaborate.\nMost companies aren\u0026rsquo;t there yet, but they\u0026rsquo;re recognising the need for a better way. If you know how to be most creative, innovative and productive, I\u0026rsquo;d say, “James, you do you. Here\u0026rsquo;s what we need within two weeks—go for it.”\nJames: Just as email lists are customised for customers, companies could customise for their internal customers: employees. Everybody is wired differently, but connecting the pieces creates a win-win. People work as they prefer and the business gets their best contribution.\nMykel: You and listeners who are beginning their careers or five to ten years in have an opportunity to lead this change. Senior leaders must recognise: “We\u0026rsquo;re ready, willing and valuable. We\u0026rsquo;re hungry to progress, but also understand ourselves and what works best.”\nIf leaders listen, young employees can help create spaces where they thrive and everybody wins. They\u0026rsquo;re not paying enough attention yet. Across society, women, people of colour and groups seeking social justice are demanding accountability.\nYoung people are part of that shift in power. Systems that brought us this far no longer serve everybody, only a select few. It\u0026rsquo;s time to change the game. James, you\u0026rsquo;ll lead the revolution and transform the world of work by Christmas.\nJames: Christmas may be ambitious. Let\u0026rsquo;s make it the end of the financial year.\nMykel: I\u0026rsquo;ll give you that.\nChange comes from you # James: Many of us think, “I\u0026rsquo;d like to work this way,” or, “My workplace should do this.” But it\u0026rsquo;s our responsibility to drive change. We can\u0026rsquo;t assume another external event like COVID will arrive and take care of it.\nMykel: If you don\u0026rsquo;t harness and feed that energy, it will fade. Youth and optimism bring power and a vision of the future, but seeds that aren\u0026rsquo;t cultivated will wither and die.\nThat 2% figure beyond age 30 reflects people failing to tend the garden of self-expression, creativity and furious fascination with making things. Moving the world forward and taking responsibility for your own capacity to thrive requires staying hungry, pushing change and poking the bear. You\u0026rsquo;ll collect bruises, but frontline experience develops confidence, positioning and communication.\nThis podcast is a perfect example. Hundreds of thousands of Australians probably discuss starting one, many for more than three years, but you\u0026rsquo;re doing it after work at 8:30 on a Thursday night.\nThat hunger keeps you young, in the game, learning, growing and pushing until you change the game for others. It\u0026rsquo;s important.\nJames: If you don\u0026rsquo;t water the garden, it slowly dies. Eventually, reviving it may become difficult, or you may forget how to water it.\nMykel: Then you become sad, old, lonely and bitter.\nJames: We don\u0026rsquo;t want that.\nMykel: Or an executive.\nThoughts to Reality is a Muscle # James: Acting on ideas is vital: taking the trip, messaging somebody, or starting the podcast or newsletter instead of saying it would be nice one day. Turning thought into reality is a skill or muscle that weakens when unused.\nMykel: It does. The odds are stacked against us because the world wants consumers who incur debt, work to repay it, vote and keep the machine running. Without becoming conspiratorial, we\u0026rsquo;ve entered a strange world. It\u0026rsquo;s important to preserve hunger and positive dissent, consciously disrupt things, shake the tree and keep people alert.\nA friend who loves mythology and archetypes often discusses the trickster and court jester. The jester is often the king or queen\u0026rsquo;s trusted right-hand person, kept close while gently mocking the monarch. The jokes also tell the villagers that the system is invented and needn\u0026rsquo;t remain this way. We allow the game to continue; recognising that could produce rapid change.\nConvenience keeps us playing along. We want safe, clean lives, Netflix, Uber Eats and creature comforts. But if we recognised our participation, we could quickly change the game.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s like taking the red pill in The Matrix.\nMykel: Absolutely. I watched it at the cinema with friends in the late 1990s, and we emerged believing it would change the world. It was a cultural icon that immediately shifted your mindset. Yet afterwards, we seemed to become even more embedded in the Matrix.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a remarkable film that\u0026rsquo;s still used in countless analogies. Returning to your earlier point, creativity is almost a matter of life and death.\nCreativity is life or death # James: Creativity deserves serious attention. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen older colleagues and hoped that at their age I\u0026rsquo;ll retain my zest, creativity and inner fire rather than letting it be extinguished. I respect their individual journeys, but don\u0026rsquo;t want to lose that part of myself.\nMykel: You\u0026rsquo;re right. I studied and played music after university, then performed for ten or 15 years. At 18, 20, 25 and 28, I mixed with interesting people aged 37, 42, 60 and beyond. They lived on the edge and outside the square, so I assumed that\u0026rsquo;s what everybody grew into. I encountered the corporate world later through my current work.\nIt staggered me. Was this what everybody did in large buildings from nine to five each week? It was a wake-up call to see so many sick, unhealthy, burnt-out, tired, disenfranchised and lonely people. That sounds harsh, but the reality is terrifying and tragic. We need to stop and examine it.\nIt is a matter of life and death, and there\u0026rsquo;s urgency. Otherwise, one, two or four decades pass and retirement arrives before you ask, “What the fuck have I done? I worked several jobs and stayed late. I barely know my children. I own two houses, but so what? I rarely travelled, or wasn\u0026rsquo;t present because I was always on my phone.” We need to wake up.\nJames: Many listeners are young, but time passes quickly. One year becomes another while you repeat the same routine until you suddenly arrive somewhere you never intended to be. You must stoke the fire of creativity and energy or risk drifting into an unwanted life.\nMykel: Absolutely. Creativity can be taken from us if we aren\u0026rsquo;t careful. But consider what happens when we engage with it, make time, invest, act courageously and tend the garden: opportunities, joy, connection and magic appear. Creativity has served me more than anything else. When life is difficult, money is scarce and you can\u0026rsquo;t see a way out, you draw upon creativity.\nWhen things are going well, creativity asks how to make them better, grow, outmanoeuvre competitors, win an opportunity or earn a promotion. It makes the career journey more enjoyable and reduces fixation on a destination. Many older people struggled because they sacrificed too much for a promised destination where everything would supposedly improve.\nAnchor yourself in a playful, creative, curious and courageous state. Play for the game\u0026rsquo;s sake and have fun: make a podcast, try something at work or organise an event despite having no experience. If three people attend, try again. Next time it may be 30, then 300, and suddenly you have a career.\nWhen you take one step towards the world in that spirit, it seems to take six towards you and offer what you need to create magic. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen it repeatedly in my life and in people I admire. They surrender, trust and lose themselves in creativity and flow from morning to night, asking, “What do you have for me today, universe?” That\u0026rsquo;s completely different from a life organised around a nine o\u0026rsquo;clock Zoom meeting. We need to swing the pendulum back.\nYou being at your best makes things better for everyone # James: That inner fire is rare, so people who possess it become magnetic. Others want to be around somebody who brings light and fun to conversations and meetings. Engaging that part of yourself makes life more enjoyable for everybody else too.\nMykel: That\u0026rsquo;s a beautiful framing: simply being somebody others enjoy makes a difference. You needn\u0026rsquo;t constantly joke or be gregarious, outgoing or extroverted.\nPeople can still think, “I enjoy projects with you. I want you on my team.” That will matter increasingly. We don\u0026rsquo;t have time for somebody who elbows others aside, boasts about 50,000 LinkedIn followers and pursues success alone. I want somebody who makes me feel good, plays collaboratively, shares and values my contribution.\nThose people will have a workplace advantage. As when choosing school teams, you select people who make you feel good. Skills can be learnt; being a good person gets you chosen.\nJames: You can bring considerable joy to others. Connection to that energy is almost a superpower. There\u0026rsquo;s a balance between pursuing your ambitions and doing so in an enjoyable way.\nBalancing Fun and Work # James: How do you pursue a specific position while preserving creativity and fun?\nMykel: Be aware of those around you, their circumstances, aspirations and what works for them. Take a courteous, thoughtful and considerate approach while remaining hungry. If you want a medal or premiership, you can rise at 4:00 a.m., train hard and spend longer in the gym without being an arsehole.\nYou can push people and hold them accountable without cruelty, shame or exclusion. Creativity is collaborative, inclusive, generous and generative. It uses what\u0026rsquo;s available rather than rejecting people: “Come on, let\u0026rsquo;s build this together.” Peace, love and happiness.\nRe-Engaging with Creativity # James: You give many talks and workshops about restoring workplace creativity. What advice would help somebody escape a rut and re-engage with theirs?\nMykel: Return to what connects with and inspires you: films, music or events. Seek inspiration and let it affect you, because what enters directly influences what emerges.\nIf you lack inspiration, creativity, ideas or a sense of identity and purpose, go searching. Become hungry and curious even when live events or new experiences feel uncomfortable.\nIt won\u0026rsquo;t find you while you remain home, visit the same places, speak to the same people and consume the same material. Take one small step towards it and it will come closer.\nRead a novel rather than a business magazine—choose art designed to ignite your imagination and let your subconscious do the work. Fill your mind with beauty and interesting people. Attend an event or the theatre. For thousands of years, humans have watched others tell stories live on stage, and audiences emerge changed.\nTake a tradie, engineer, mathematician or anybody who claims not to like theatre. After a show, they may rethink their life. That\u0026rsquo;s art\u0026rsquo;s purpose: to make you think differently, open you and connect ideas.\nSeek experiences that affect you. Don\u0026rsquo;t overthink it. You could spend hours designing a gym routine and calculating macros, or simply do 100 push-ups. Likewise, listen to music, find art or enter a creative space and let it wash over you. Creativity is powerful; we don\u0026rsquo;t need to understand it, only let it in.\nJames: Taking one step beyond your routine matters. Habits such as reading or exercising can help, but eventually become dependencies that lead somewhere stale and drain fun and energy. At that point, change the routine or try something completely different. I\u0026rsquo;m interested in examining my life, turning things around and attempting something wild that may or may not work.\nMykel: Excellent. You\u0026rsquo;re awesome, mate.\nJames: Thank you. We have about ten minutes left and a few more things I\u0026rsquo;d like to ask.\nHow to be a good public speaker # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve won awards for public speaking and presentations. Have you consciously developed that skill? Where did you begin, how did you evolve and what have you learnt?\nMykel: Everybody needs presentation skills, particularly when progressing through a business. Communicating effectively and influencing from a stage, presentation or pitch matters in marketing, sales and gaining support for ideas.\nWe could discuss nuances, but the simple answer is time on the court: the more you speak, the better you become. You can accelerate by studying storytelling, posture, breathing and vocal tone, but beginners mainly need repetition. As with doing push-ups or immersing yourself in a creative place such as Fitzroy or Collingwood, take, find and create opportunities to speak.\nBecome terrified, vomit beforehand if necessary, worry for three weeks, write 17,000 words for a two-minute talk, delete them and begin again. Repeating that process teaches more than searching for three tips or six hacks.\nThis reflects our entire conversation: instead of plotting steps X, Y and Z, enter the game and play. One live presentation, keynote or speech teaches more than 50 rehearsals. Onstage, you learn while panicking, saying something good, seeing a strange audience reaction and fearing you\u0026rsquo;re terrible.\nYou may leave convinced it was disastrous, then hear that somebody loved it. Another time, you may believe you were brilliant and receive criticism. You must experience both. Speak as often as possible. Begin by raising your hand in a meeting or unmuting yourself on Zoom or Teams when somebody asks for questions.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t wait for the usual confident person. They\u0026rsquo;re receiving the benefit and growing more comfortable while you remain silent. Raise your hand before forming a question. When called upon, you\u0026rsquo;ll surprise yourself and find something to say.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re more gifted, talented, creative and spontaneous than we realise, but don\u0026rsquo;t enter the mix often enough. Screens, mute buttons and disabled cameras make hiding easier than merely avoiding eye contact in a room. Hiding prevents growth. This hybrid Zoom world may be the best time to practise speaking: join and contribute.\nVolunteer to lead or report from a conference breakout table. Admit that you don\u0026rsquo;t want to but need the practice. Others will support your courage. Offer to do the first presentation if somebody else does the second, allowing everyone to grow instead of always deferring to Tracy.\nMany techniques can later refine your speaking, but begin by doing it constantly. I learnt that through music. Home practice, scales, listening and transcription matter, but my mentors said to book gigs. Play as many as possible—to nobody, on the street, or in a shopping centre where nobody listens. You learn faster by being in the game. That\u0026rsquo;s my public-speaking advice.\nJames: That connects back to creativity: you best water its garden by entering the game and testing things.\nMykel: You\u0026rsquo;re tying it all together, my friend.\nAdvice for Graduates # James: Mykel, what advice would you give university students and early-career people who want to develop their careers and remain among the 2% of creative geniuses when they\u0026rsquo;re older?\nMykel: Don\u0026rsquo;t let the world get to you. Things are improving, but the next decade may remain bumpy. People will be cruel, talk behind your back, withhold information or try to stunt your career. Don\u0026rsquo;t let them stop you. Trust and love yourself. Accept that you\u0026rsquo;re here for a reason neither better nor lesser than anybody else\u0026rsquo;s.\nYou have a voice and something to contribute—to neighbours, family, colleagues or customers. You could become another Steve Jobs or simply Barry in the suburbs, a wonderful person who greets the postie each day. Don\u0026rsquo;t let the world diminish the miracle you are. That may sound like Tony Robbins, but we need it now.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve been told we aren\u0026rsquo;t enough and won\u0026rsquo;t succeed. Instagram suggests everybody is better-looking, thinner and richer. It\u0026rsquo;s bullshit; they\u0026rsquo;re also worried, terrified and insecure. Find trustworthy people and build a safe, sacred unit where you value, support and remind one another that you\u0026rsquo;re excellent.\nThe world you build will improve upon the one I inherited, just as mine improved upon my parents\u0026rsquo;. We\u0026rsquo;re progressing, although the journey can knock you around. Everybody listening, including you, James, is extraordinary and has beautiful things to offer that we haven\u0026rsquo;t yet discovered. That\u0026rsquo;s the magic: who knows what James will do in five, ten or 20 years? If you believe you have nothing special to give, you won\u0026rsquo;t launch the next project, and everyone loses its benefit.\nIn keynotes, sessions and leadership programs, I encourage people to share generously. I can speak for hours or months, but the real value comes from participants sharing their stories, experiences, perspectives and perceptions. Your question, story or insight may unlock something for somebody else.\nPerhaps their entire reason for attending was to hear you, not me. If you remain silent because your question seems inadequate or others seem more talented, you may deny that person what they need to set their life on fire. We\u0026rsquo;re all connected, and believing we aren\u0026rsquo;t enough or have nothing to contribute is insidious.\nYour contribution may simply be raising your hand to say you don\u0026rsquo;t understand. Seventeen others may have the same question but lack the courage to ask. I want a generous world where we\u0026rsquo;re together, fully ourselves and share as much as possible. That world is coming. Hang in there; we\u0026rsquo;re in this together.\nJames: That was inspiring and full of wisdom. Thank you for the kind words. It\u0026rsquo;s been a pleasure hearing your thoughts, Mykel. Where can listeners learn more about you?\nMykel: My website is mykeldixon.com, spelled M-Y-K-E-L-D-I-X-O-N. I\u0026rsquo;ve become more active on LinkedIn and Instagram because those platforms need more light, joy and alternative voices. I\u0026rsquo;m returning with a vengeance, hopefully in a fun way. Come and say hello.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and everything I learnt, subscribe to Graduate Theory at GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll get my takeaways and information about each episode straight in your inbox.\nThanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 46\n","date":"5 September 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/46-mykel-dixon-rediscovering-creativity/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 46\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Mykel Dixon | On Rediscovering Your Creativity","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is a leader in his field. He has grown the engineering team at Canva from a startup to one of the best engineering workplaces in Australia.\nThis episode is an insight into managing and growing your engineering skills to a high level.\nThis article was sent to subscribers of the Graduate Theory newsletter.\nSubscribe now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nBrendan Humphreys is the Head of Engineering at Canva.\n🤝 Connect with Brendan # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanhumphreys/\nTwitter - https://twitter.com/brendanh\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Management is a Skill (and you can learn it) # Brendan spent much of his career before Canva as an individual contributor. He eventually sold a tool that he built to Atlassian, and then moved to Canva.\nHe spoke about the switch from individual contributor to management, and how it was absolutely something that could be learned. In fact, being an IC first can make it even easier to be a manager.\nif they\u0026rsquo;ve been individual contributors in the recent past, and they\u0026rsquo;ve stepped into engineering management, I think that gives them a high degree of empathy with the engineers that they are managing\nyou can learn to be a great manager\nAn understanding of the tools makes this easier\nUnderstanding Context using First Principles # I asked Brendan about common mistakes that junior engineers make, and he spoke about thinking through problems from first principles.\nit\u0026rsquo;s a bit of an anti-pattern in engineering to be in that mode of unconstrained ideation where you\u0026rsquo;re just \u0026ldquo;what if we did this? And what if we did that?\u0026rdquo; And my answer is always, \u0026ldquo;you tell me what, what if we did that?\u0026rdquo; Spend the time to figure it out\nOne of the best things junior engineers can do is try to understand the context of what they are doing in the organisation.\nComing up with new suggestions and new tools is great, but an understanding of how they would fit into the organisation is critical.\nEmpathy in Engineering # Brendan highlighted to me the importance of empathy in engineering.\nBeing able to steelman an argument and have a robust, considerate and understanding conversation is very important in facilitating collaboration amongst teams.\nbeing able to see a problem from different viewpoints [\u0026hellip;] is highly valuable in unlocking collaboration in teams.\nAs a way to practice this, Brendan suggested trying to \u0026ldquo;steelman\u0026rdquo; opposing arguments. Even if you disagree with something, try to present the argument in the best possible way, understanding it fully. Once this is done, consider the perspective and compare to your own.\nThis is an effective way to discuss difficult topics.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Intro\n00:29 A Day in the Life\n05:11 Designing a Promotion Structure\n06:27 Did Brendan always want to be in management\n08:51 Measuring engineering teams\n12:51 What makes an effective manager\n17:31 10x engineers\n22:00 Skill improvement as an IC\n25:15 Tips for Junior Engineers\n34:58 Specialise vs Generalise\n38:21 Engineering traits that are undervalued\n43:01 Importance of startup journey\n49:29 Failure that ended up being a success\n51:45 Best investment of time or money\n54:37 Advice for Graduates\n57:25 Outro\n","date":"29 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/45-brendan-humphreys/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today’s guest is a leader in his field. He has grown the engineering team at Canva from a startup to one of the best engineering workplaces in Australia.\n","title":"Brendan Humphreys | On Developing Your Engineering Career","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 45\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nBrendan: Engineering is, and probably always will be, highly collaborative. Developing the ability to see a problem from different viewpoints is enormously valuable for unlocking collaboration within teams.\nA Day in the Life # James: What does a day or week in your life look like, Brendan? Do you spend all day in meetings, or do you still do much programming?\nBrendan: I attend a fair number of meetings, but I\u0026rsquo;m careful to defend my time. One trick you learn early is defensive calendaring: blocking out and protecting time so people can\u0026rsquo;t simply invade your calendar. Creating space for deep thinking is important. I use much of it to read and approve internal proposals, as well as some external material.\nIn meetings, I deal with many aspects of running a large company. Much of it is context-sharing. I maintain a necessarily broad view of what hundreds of teams are doing. Through conversations, I can spot opportunities for team A to talk to team B because they\u0026rsquo;re doing related work.\nTeams may feel that they lack the resources to execute their goals, that their work isn\u0026rsquo;t prioritised, or that they\u0026rsquo;re blocked. I can provide context around priorities and help unblock them. That tactical work is important, but I also focus on strategic questions for Canva. The company has grown exponentially, doubling the organisation every year for at least seven years, which creates many scaling challenges.\nWe must continually evolve our processes and structures, identify what works and where the gaps are, and pragmatically introduce changes as we grow. We also need to look ahead: where must we be in one or five years, and how can we lay tracks in those directions?\nI spend considerable time on escalations. When a proposal attracts competing views, it may come to me for a final decision. I handle salary, equity, hiring-plan and tooling-spend approvals, and spend time recruiting. When we\u0026rsquo;re pursuing top talent, I help sell high-profile candidates on the joys of working at Canva and the challenges before us.\nPerformance management is another major responsibility: developing and interpreting our career framework so managers understand how to set expectations. We have a promotion system, although at Canva we call them role changes. At regular intervals, we accept applications and assess evidence of an individual\u0026rsquo;s output to determine whether it meets the required level. We invest substantial effort in calibrating decisions fairly across the organisation. It\u0026rsquo;s a great deal of work.\nDesigning a Promotion Structure # James: When designing structures such as the promotion system for a rapidly growing engineering organisation, do you borrow from similar companies or work from first principles?\nBrendan: We do both. We study companies ahead of us on the growth curve and examine them soberly, treating some as cautionary tales and others as examples we may want to replicate.\nWe always put our own spin on processes and structures. We invest significant effort in understanding what worked elsewhere, then distil it into language that feels familiar and uniquely Canva.\nDid Brendan always want to be in management # James: You now oversee many engineering teams. Did you always want to lead engineers, or is that a more recent interest?\nBrendan: It was never a career ambition. I\u0026rsquo;ve enjoyed both individual contribution and engineering management, but spent most of my career as an engineer building things, with occasional management stints. The difference at Canva is that I joined very early, so my commitment is probably higher than at any other point in my career.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve always believed in doing whatever is needed, as did many early employees. As we grew, the need for engineering management alongside individual contribution became increasingly apparent, and I gradually stepped further into that role.\nI enjoy it. Its challenges and rewards are different, but still intellectual. It isn\u0026rsquo;t coding, although I do that very occasionally. Returning to the tools is always sobering: “It\u0026rsquo;s been a while—how does Git work?”\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear that path. Some senior people decide very early to pursue leadership completely, while others arrive there differently.\nMeasuring engineering teams # James: How do you measure an engineering team\u0026rsquo;s performance? Metrics such as lines of code don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily reflect the real work.\nBrendan: It\u0026rsquo;s difficult. The ultimate measure is whether teams set good goals, break them into milestones and deliver those milestones on time. We examine the output of teams and individuals, but don\u0026rsquo;t want it to come at a personal cost. We call this sustainable urgency: teams should move quickly while maintaining work–life balance and a healthy long-term culture.\nDevelopment metrics can be dangerous. We often discuss Goodhart\u0026rsquo;s law at Canva. We strive to be data-driven while remembering that once a measure becomes a target, it tends to lose its value as a measure. Total focus on metrics also encourages you to prioritise what is easy to measure, although many important things aren\u0026rsquo;t. Success therefore means sustainable delivery: a track record of delivery alongside the team\u0026rsquo;s health and wellbeing.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve seen commit leaderboards drive perverse behaviour. People learn to create more commits or divide changes into smaller ones to climb the leaderboard. Code-oriented metrics also imply that other essential activities are less important. Engineering managers set team expectations, run team cadences, and discuss and review technical approaches, all of which are harder to measure. Focusing on hard code metrics can diminish that vital work, which is dangerous.\nJames: Sustainable urgency is a great way to describe it.\nWhat makes an effective manager # James: What traits make an effective engineering manager?\nBrendan: Our best frontline managers tend to have recent experience on the tools. They\u0026rsquo;ve recently moved from individual contribution into engineering management, which gives them empathy for the engineers they manage.\nWe expect managers to contribute technically, usually by giving direction and reviewing technical designs. Direct coding is possible but exceptional because managers are time-poor. The lesson also works in reverse: even somebody on our individual-contributor “build” track benefits from spending time as a manager. It\u0026rsquo;s easy for an individual contributor wearing headphones to dismiss the pointy-headed boss. Sitting in the pilot\u0026rsquo;s seat gives you an appreciation for the pressures and intellectual challenges managers face, making you a more rounded contributor. Canva deliberately allows people to move back and forth between tracks.\nManagers need technical competence and organisational skills: understanding a larger goal, dividing it into milestones and tasks, and guiding a team through execution. Finally, they must set clear expectations, communicate them explicitly and hold teams and individuals accountable. Those frank conversations can feel uncomfortable to engineers, but they\u0026rsquo;re learnable skills.\nJames: Is that something you had to learn?\nBrendan: Absolutely. First-time engineering managers often rely on “leading by example”, but that has real limitations. “Do as I do” only works to an extent and can become an anti-pattern, particularly when a former individual contributor simply does a large amount of work without making the intended example clear.\nYou must move beyond implicitly setting expectations through hard work. Explicitly discuss the role, its tasks and what you expect. That clarity gives direct reports psychological safety. Understanding what\u0026rsquo;s expected is half the battle in meeting a role\u0026rsquo;s performance requirements.\n10x engineers # James: Psychological safety helps people feel comfortable thinking and speaking openly. Moving from management to individual contributors, have you encountered “10x engineers” who contribute ten times more than a standard engineer? What do they do differently?\nBrendan: I believe the phrase originated in an IBM research project, perhaps in the 1980s. Individuals\u0026rsquo; output varies widely, and occasionally an engineer produces an order of magnitude more than a competent colleague.\nThat can be extremely difficult to manage and create unhealthy dynamics. An individual racing ahead can destabilise the team by producing more work than everyone else can comprehend, review, build upon or maintain.\nWork backs up behind them because they\u0026rsquo;re the only person who understands the system they largely built, which can become toxic. At Canva, we consider that a pathology. We value high-output individual contributors who uplift those around them and take teams along for the journey.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re brilliant contributors who also mentor, educate, direct and quickly unblock others. They\u0026rsquo;re worth their weight in gold because technical communication and teaching lift the team\u0026rsquo;s execution. We select and reward them rather than the headphone-wearing engineer who only produces code, which is difficult for a team to sustain.\nJames: You want somebody who raises the team rather than racing alone in one direction.\nBrendan: Exactly. Our individual-contributor career track explicitly expects people at higher levels to spend increasingly more time sharing knowledge and acting as force multipliers, rather than simply producing code.\nSkill improvement as an IC # James: There is plenty of education for beginners, but a senior engineer can\u0026rsquo;t simply take a course and become a specialist who advances the field. How should an individual contributor continue developing at that level?\nBrendan: It depends on your learning style. I learn by doing. A textbook remains theoretical until I get my hands dirty with the technology, although others absorb theory and then apply it.\nThere are no shortcuts to becoming an industry expert. You must invest hours and hours of practice, and it helps to love the work and draw energy from it.\nIndividual contributors should also vary their problem spaces. We interview people with senior titles and five or seven years\u0026rsquo; experience who have actually solved the same problem repeatedly.\nThey haven\u0026rsquo;t broadened their technical thinking or built genuine depth because their comfort zone never challenged them. The keys are varying problem domains, finding opportunities to go deep, and investing the hours. Hopefully, you love doing the work.\nJames: At the top of almost any field, you\u0026rsquo;d be surprised to find somebody who doesn\u0026rsquo;t genuinely love what they do.\nTips for Junior Engineers # James: What mistakes have you seen eager junior engineers make that prevent them progressing as far as they could?\nBrendan: The biggest mistake is failing to learn from first principles and focusing too much on technology. They arrive having learnt an exciting tool and immediately want to apply it.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s a shiny-bubble effect: “I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt React, so I want to build everything in React.” We teach graduate engineers to build context, deeply understand the systems they\u0026rsquo;re building upon, break that understanding into first principles and reason from them.\nTest your proposal carefully and apply second-order thinking instead of assuming that knowing tool X makes it right for a problem. Break down the problem, understand the system, build domain knowledge and rationally choose the best solution.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s difficult because people want to code and build. Unconstrained ideation—continually asking “What if we did this?”—can become an engineering anti-pattern.\nMy response is, “You tell me what would happen.” Work it out rather than burdening senior engineers with questions you can reason through yourself. Demonstrating contextual understanding and disciplined thinking is valuable to your team.\nEvery few years, a technology is presented as a silver bullet by industry thought leaders—or vendors masquerading as thought leaders.\nGraduates can become enamoured and worship at the altar of technology rather than examining its value, comparison with prior art and direct relevance to their problem.\nBlockchain, thankfully, seems to be losing some lustre. It\u0026rsquo;s exciting technology and an excellent intellectual exercise, but its practical applications are limited.\nJames: It has certainly lost some of the shine it had three or four years ago.\nBrendan: I\u0026rsquo;m not singling out blockchain. Before it came NoSQL, which people rushed into without understanding the trade-offs; before that, XML was going to solve everything. Groupthink around fashionable technologies is dangerous but difficult to resist.\nJames: How do you distinguish a shiny new tool from a genuine breakthrough worth adopting?\nBrendan: It\u0026rsquo;s difficult because some new ideas prove excellent, and with hindsight you wish you\u0026rsquo;d adopted them earlier. We create space for engineers to tinker and play with new technologies, but balance that against production risk.\nI\u0026rsquo;m a fan of the boring-technology club. Mature technologies have warts, but those are understood; we know their performance profiles and deficiencies and can engineer around them. Bleeding-edge technology has that name because you bleed when adopting it. Canva therefore sets a high bar and requires a clear rationale showing net benefit.\nWe avoid unnecessarily expanding our technology surface area. A relatively small set helps engineers move through the organisation because they don\u0026rsquo;t face enormous technological diversity.\nIt also lowers day-to-day cognitive cost. Familiar technologies and patterns let engineers encounter different system components and quickly understand how they work.\nWe want to hear about technologies that could uplift us, but the burden of proof is high and must include the total adoption cost. We aim for a step change rather than forking a solution.\nWe don\u0026rsquo;t want an old and new way, but one way—which may become the new one. Otherwise, each fork adds another solution until combinatorial complexity becomes unmanageable and impedes maintenance, evolution and further development.\nJames: Keeping the technology set small so engineers can move around more easily is a valuable principle.\nSpecialise vs Generalise # James: What do you advise people at different career stages about specialising versus generalising?\nBrendan: We like engineers to specialise, but subscribe to the idea of a T-shaped engineer. They may spend years honing their craft and developing deep knowledge in one speciality while also learning adjacent technologies and skills. The horizontal bar is broad knowledge; the vertical bar is depth in one or two specialities. During a 30-year career, you may go deep in several.\nDepth requires substantial execution and time, so choose carefully. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily choose fashionable technology; favour something stable with evidence of execution and success.\nI\u0026rsquo;d be worried about pursuing a degree in blockchain because I\u0026rsquo;m unsure how applicable it will be.\nJames: You need to avoid specialising in a trend rather than something with longevity.\nBrendan: Choose fundamental technologies and observe where the industry is heading. The stacks used by Canva, Google and Facebook are probably built for the long haul.\nSome are boring. We love Java; it isn\u0026rsquo;t fashionable, but most of our back ends use it, and it remains a good language in which to gain a grounding.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting way to think about it. I appreciate your insight.\nEngineering traits that are undervalued # James: Which traits do you value in engineers that the market tends to underappreciate?\nBrendan: Critical thinking is undervalued. Many graduates arrive focused on technology and excited by their technical knowledge, but I want to see that knowledge applied critically. Real engineering is problem-solving.\nDeveloping problem-solving, first-principles reasoning, higher-order thinking and an understanding of logical fallacies is extremely valuable.\nEmpathy is another important, underrated engineering skill. People often imagine a warm, fuzzy, innate emotional trait, but it\u0026rsquo;s a skill you can hone: seeing the world from others\u0026rsquo; perspectives and deeply understanding them. Engineering is, and probably always will be, highly collaborative. Viewing a problem from different perspectives unlocks team collaboration.\nOne practical technique I champion among young engineers is the unfortunately named “steel-manning”, the opposite of straw-manning. Straw-manning treats a discussion as an argument to win, reduces somebody\u0026rsquo;s position to an inferior form, then demolishes it. Steel-manning recognises a technical discussion as people bringing diverse perspectives into collaborative problem-solving.\nStep back, understand another position deeply enough to argue it yourself, and do so genuinely. You may change your mind or convince yourself of their view, which can unblock a team divided over a solution. Even if you still believe you\u0026rsquo;re right, demonstrating empathy disarms conflict and creates a constructive environment for progress.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s far better to work with somebody who understands your thinking and responds constructively than somebody determined to shoot it down.\nImportance of startup journey # James: After several software jobs, you co-founded Cenqua. How formative was building a product and company yourself?\nBrendan: Extremely formative. Owning a company removes the safety net. With only four people and plenty of non-coding work, you appreciate every aspect of running a business, not only engineering.\nThe personal commitment is enormous because nobody else will do the work. We were very driven, although we called ourselves a lifestyle company and told ourselves we could take time off and move leisurely. In reality, you live and breathe the company. That can also be a trap, so you must be careful. It opened my eyes to every aspect of software delivery, not just writing code.\nJames: Which parts of that journey remain most useful today?\nBrendan: It taught me what ownership and having skin in the game mean. In any organisation, the bystander effect makes people assume somebody else will act or decide. Owning a company without a safety net gives you agency: if you don\u0026rsquo;t handle something, nobody will.\nCarrying that agency into small or large companies is powerful. Take complete ownership of a system, component, process, structural decision or anything else, then drive it to completion.\nJames: That extreme ownership matters at every level. For early-career people who aspire to become a CTO or head of engineering, is there common career advice they should ignore?\nBrendan: I can only describe my philosophy. I\u0026rsquo;ve worked at companies with technology at their centre and stayed as technical as possible for as long as possible to build deep expertise. I didn\u0026rsquo;t have a destination in mind; I simply did what I enjoyed and have been fortunate in where I landed.\nStaying technical exposed me to diverse team cultures, problem domains and solutions. That depth provides a strong foundation if you later choose engineering management. I also have friends who remain individual contributors after 25 or 30 years, which is equally valid. This worked for me, although survivor bias applies.\nFailure that ended up being a success # James: Has something in your career felt like a failure at the time but ultimately worked out well?\nBrendan: I graduated in 1997 as the first tech bubble formed. Before Google existed, I wrote an honours thesis on distributed web indexing. I still regret not seizing that opportunity, moving to Silicon Valley and participating as the dot-com bubble formed. Many companies crashed, but others such as Google became household names.\nLooking back, I would have pushed beyond my comfort zone. I had relatively unique knowledge of distributed web indexing, then a novel and important subject, but chose a safer engineering job at a telecommunications company. Perhaps I should have tried my luck in Silicon Valley. I don\u0026rsquo;t have many regrets, however, because things worked out well.\nBest investment of time or money # James: What investment of time or money was crucial to your engineering career?\nBrendan: I\u0026rsquo;ve always enjoyed building software on the side. It isn\u0026rsquo;t a chore to broaden my skills but a passion; I enjoy tinkering with software and hardware.\nThat has been enormously valuable. Cenqua earned its first income from one of my side projects, which we turned into a commercial product. I try—perhaps excessively—to develop the discipline to see projects through to completion.\nStarting side projects is easy; bringing them to a logical conclusion is harder. I fail more often than not and have hundreds that barely progressed, but I continue trying.\nNot everybody has that opportunity; personal circumstances may make it difficult. Side projects and open-source contributions aren\u0026rsquo;t prerequisites for graduates or engineers joining us. They\u0026rsquo;re welcome but not expected.\nJames: Many stories begin with somebody\u0026rsquo;s side project becoming something impressive.\nAdvice for Graduates # James: What advice would you give a recent graduate who wants to become a great engineer?\nBrendan: Join a mature engineering organisation where you can learn from exceptional people. Seek teams with strong engineering cultures and formal or informal mentors who can teach you the craft of software engineering.\nWe deliberately created that culture at Canva, and large companies such as Google, Amazon, Microsoft and Apple also have it. Joining a smaller organisation isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily wrong, but graduates can quickly become the most knowledgeable person in the room, which is risky. I believe it\u0026rsquo;s better to begin somewhere with mentors who show you what excellence looks like and help you reach it.\nJames: Join a company like Canva. Thanks for coming on the show, Brendan. Where can listeners learn more about you or connect?\nBrendan: I\u0026rsquo;m @brendanh on Twitter, although I tweet very infrequently. I\u0026rsquo;m also on LinkedIn. I receive many requests, so I may not reply.\nJames: Fantastic. Thanks so much for coming on the show.\nBrendan: No worries, James. I\u0026rsquo;ve enjoyed the chat.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and everything I learnt, subscribe to Graduate Theory at GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll get my takeaways and information about each episode straight in your inbox.\nThanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 45\n","date":"29 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/45-brendan-humphreys/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 45\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Brendan Humphreys | On Developing Your Engineering Career","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is full of energy and full of wisdom. She\u0026rsquo;s a great example of following your talents to the fullest extent.\nI\u0026rsquo;m super excited to share this episode.\nThis article was sent to subscribers of the Graduate Theory newsletter.\nSubscribe now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nLisa Leong is an ABC Radio National broadcaster, media commentator and business consultant.\n🤝 Connect with Lisa # Radio Show - https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/this-working-life\nLinkedIn - https://au.linkedin.com/in/lisasleong\nBook - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60395744-this-working-life\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Moments of Truth # Lisa spoke about this and it really stuck with me.\nShe spoke about how the everyday inertia of life is quite strong. One day just rolls into the next.\nIf we aren\u0026rsquo;t intentional about the things that we do, we can easily end up in places that we didn\u0026rsquo;t want to go.\nLisa says that to break this trance, we need a micro act of bravery.\nthe moments of truth, where you do need micros of bravery in order to change something\nWe need to step out and do something different.\nLisa has an incredible story, leaving a career in law to become a radio host (not something you see often!).\nHer moment of truth and micro act of bravery helped her to escape a career that was taking her energy, and get her to a place that fills her cup.\nLooking After Yourself # So all those boxes of success, the promotion, the work life balance with the Olympic distance triathlon, it was a big mistake because I was in bed, I was bedridden.\nLisa spoke about how, at one stage of her life, she was in trouble. She has serious health problems associated with her high stress levels.\nNow, she understands what living in a high-stress environment for a period of time can do to your body.\nShe now meditates regularly and makes sure she is operating within her physical and mental boundaries.\nEvery Day is Lab Day # Understanding who you are and what you want out of life is an ongoing process.\nLisa has the saying \u0026ldquo;treat every day as lab day\u0026rdquo;.\nThat means, treating every day as a new day to experiment and find out more about yourself and the things that engage you.\nThinking about your career in this way will help you find those things that give you energy and will sustain you over the long term.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Lisa Leong\n00:21 Journey from Law to Radio\n10:38 Dealing with Pressures changing careers\n15:51 Creating your Values\n25:00 Biggest Learning from the book\n31:54 Undervalued pieces from the book\n38:32 A Failure that ended up being a success\n44:31 Lisa\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n46:59 Outro\n","date":"22 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/44-lisa-leong/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today’s guest is full of energy and full of wisdom. She’s a great example of following your talents to the fullest extent.\n","title":"Lisa Leong | On Moments of Truth and Pattern Discovery","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 44\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nLisa: All those boxes of success—the promotion, the work-life balance of training for an Olympic-distance triathlon—felt like a big mistake because I was in bed. I was bedridden.\nJourney from Law to Radio # James: I know your most recent podcast episode was about changing careers, and I\u0026rsquo;d love to hear about your experience. Going from law into radio, along with the other things you\u0026rsquo;ve done, is an interesting journey, so I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive into that.\nLisa: Do you want to hear how I went from law to radio, James?\nJames: Yes, I would love to hear that.\nLisa: I followed the path you follow when you come out of university. Everyone said I should try to get articles in a law firm, so I did. Then you blink, and seven years later you\u0026rsquo;re still working as a lawyer. I was really enjoying it, and it took me to London.\nPicture London in the year 2000. We were all excited about the year 2000, the internet was suddenly booming, and in what is now called the internet bubble, a lot of money was being splashed around. I followed the money trail to London and started doing incredible transactions during the internet boom. Then came the bust, and the people funding this amazing movement lost their money. I stopped doing those huge transactions and, as a technology and e-commerce lawyer, was pulled into a different area: mergers and acquisitions.\nThey were still huge transactions, but the role of the technology lawyer was quite limited. I had to review, as part of due diligence, all the technology contracts for these big companies to make sure they were up to scratch. In those days, that involved sitting in an airless, windowless office for hours each day, reviewing piles and piles of documents.\nI slowly died inside as I reviewed those contracts. Then a friend said, \u0026ldquo;Have you ever thought about volunteering for hospital radio?\u0026rdquo; The hospitals in London are so big that each one has a full-blown radio station. You volunteer, but you also get trained.\nYou do your flying time on other people\u0026rsquo;s shows. I did Monday-night bingo and read out calls such as \u0026ldquo;legs eleven\u0026rdquo; and \u0026ldquo;two little ducks, twenty-two.\u0026rdquo; Every Monday night, there I was. Once I had built up my hours, I received panel training. I would practise with my pens, pulling up the fader and talking, then pulling down the fader and turning it off.\nThen I got my own show, Thursday Night Therapy with Lisa Leong, where I interviewed anyone I found interesting. I\u0026rsquo;d ask my friends, \u0026ldquo;Can you come and talk about this?\u0026rdquo; The show started gaining traction and grew an audience—maybe because it had a captive audience in a hospital. I fell in love with it and wondered, \u0026ldquo;How do I turn this into a career?\u0026rdquo;\nI\u0026rsquo;m really curious about that part: once you\u0026rsquo;ve discovered that you love something, how do you turn it into a career? Looking back, I didn\u0026rsquo;t simply leap. I did a whole load of little things. As the consultant and coach Dorie Clark says, \u0026ldquo;Optimise for interesting.\u0026rdquo; Be very curious about this new thing.\nI kept volunteering at different hospitals and radio stations, got myself onto other people\u0026rsquo;s shows in London, and did a lot of research. I listened to and analysed hours of radio, read books and did all those things. Then I decided to write letters, attach my hospital radio show as a demo and send them everywhere. I now know my strategy was \u0026ldquo;spray and pray.\u0026rdquo; It wasn\u0026rsquo;t very wise, and I received lots of rejection letters.\nI got so many rejection letters, James. Although I can say that lightly now, it didn\u0026rsquo;t feel very good at the time. It was like asking, \u0026ldquo;Do you think there\u0026rsquo;s something here?\u0026rdquo; and having everyone say, \u0026ldquo;No, there\u0026rsquo;s nothing here.\u0026rdquo; I thought, \u0026ldquo;What was I thinking? I\u0026rsquo;ve got a bogan voice. I\u0026rsquo;m crap.\u0026rdquo; I turned on myself, lost a lot of confidence and thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll just be a lawyer.\u0026rdquo;\nThe turning point came from empathy. I asked myself what life would be like for a program director making a big decision about whom to put on air: really busy, to be honest. I didn\u0026rsquo;t think they were listening to my demo tape, so perhaps I could do something else to have a conversation with them.\nI found out that the program director of Liberty Radio—one of London\u0026rsquo;s biggest radio stations by footprint—also presented the weekend breakfast show by himself. I decided to cold-call him face-to-face. I took the first train out in cold, sleeting weather and arrived unannounced at the radio station. When I pressed the doorbell and he answered, I wondered whether I should run away. I was scared and thought, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, he could call the police on me. This is ridiculous.\u0026rdquo;\nThen I thought, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s the worst that can happen? He could call the police or reject me again. I\u0026rsquo;ve already been rejected, so let\u0026rsquo;s give this a go. What if it works?\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Hi, my name is Lisa Leong. I\u0026rsquo;m a radio DJ. Can I make you a cup of coffee this morning?\u0026rdquo; Mind you, I was 30 years old, not 16. I was literally a corporate lawyer asking, \u0026ldquo;Can I make you a cup of coffee?\u0026rdquo; He buzzed me in, James.\nI was meeting a man I\u0026rsquo;d never met before. He didn\u0026rsquo;t know who I was, but he let me in. I found the kitchen, made him a cup of coffee and, when he beckoned me into the studio, sat and watched him talk. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Wow, this is cool.\u0026rdquo; When he stopped talking and put on a song, he asked, \u0026ldquo;Okay, who are you? Tell me your story.\u0026rdquo; Suddenly, I was chatting with this guy. He was the dude, right?\nThe next week, I rang the doorbell again and said, \u0026ldquo;Hi, it\u0026rsquo;s Lisa Leong, the radio DJ, here to make your morning cup of coffee.\u0026rdquo; He let me in, and this time he put me on air with him. I chatted with Tom on the radio and returned every weekend until he was so sick of me that he gave me my own Sunday show. I brought in my friend Zoe Mack, and together we presented a show on Liberty Radio, which had London\u0026rsquo;s largest footprint. Getting that commercial radio experience was one of my biggest breaks.\nHe helped me put together a better demo tape, which got me into the Australian Film Television and Radio School after three rounds of interviews. I resigned from my law firm because I had learned that either 95 or 100 per cent of the school\u0026rsquo;s radio graduates got jobs. That was enough for me to say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do this. This is where I roll the dice. If I can get into AFTRS, I\u0026rsquo;ll resign.\u0026rdquo; I left my London job and came back to Australia. That set me on my radio path.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a super-interesting story and a great example of initiative. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to turn up at an office like that. I think it\u0026rsquo;s quite bold.\nLisa: I think it takes micro acts of bravery, James, because there is a lot of inertia. Especially when you\u0026rsquo;re gaining experience, do you keep going or pivot? At those big career moments—what I call moments of truth—you need micro acts of bravery to change something, because inertia is strong. One day can simply roll into the next if you\u0026rsquo;re not purposeful or intentional.\nDealing with Pressures changing careers # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I want to ask about the move in particular. You were working at the law firm and doing radio on the side. What did people say about that? They might have thought it strange that you were working at the firm while doing something seemingly random on a radio show. Leaving law entirely to pursue radio isn\u0026rsquo;t a classic move, either. Did you feel pressure to keep doing what you were doing? You had also invested so much time in law, and people often feel that they can\u0026rsquo;t do anything else because they\u0026rsquo;ve spent so long doing one thing. How did all of that flow through your mind at the time?\nLisa: In a way, James, I think it\u0026rsquo;s easier now. We talk about bringing our whole selves to work, and people understand that we don\u0026rsquo;t have to fit a very narrow idea of a worker. When we began working remotely and could see into people\u0026rsquo;s homes, we learned more about each person as a whole. Because of the internet and social media, I can also see that you have different hobbies or pastimes, or perhaps a side business or side hustle. All of that is part of you.\nBack in the 1990s, I would say that we had a very professional persona. I was lucky to join a law firm that let me be myself, so I was all-singing, all-dancing, both as a casual worker and later when I did my articles. They absolutely knew that I was a lawyer, but I would also host or chair section meetings with a little boombox playing intro music. I would put out two lounge chairs and say, \u0026ldquo;Come and sit in my hot seat,\u0026rdquo; as if it were a television show.\nThey knew who I was and truly supported me. A nurturing environment can say, \u0026ldquo;Oh, that\u0026rsquo;s Lisa. There she is, singing to the clients again.\u0026rdquo; I never hid it. My law firm in London was supportive too. They said, \u0026ldquo;Wow, that\u0026rsquo;s unreal. You\u0026rsquo;re becoming a radio DJ. Nobody has ever resigned to become a radio DJ.\u0026rdquo; They were awesome.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re honest and authentic, people can be your greatest supporters. I feel that work environments can now see that we all come in different shapes, sizes and modes, and that it\u0026rsquo;s all important.\nThe work for each individual is to see every day as lab day: an opportunity to learn more about yourself, particularly your superpowers and values. Your superpowers are the strengths unique to you. The more you play to them, the more helpful and happy you are at work, and the more likely you are to find flow and do your best work. That\u0026rsquo;s important for you and the organisation you belong to, because then you\u0026rsquo;ll be your best self and do unreal work.\nValues are about understanding how and who you want to be in the world. I had a few mishaps with my health, so health became one of my most important values, above everything else. Others are connection, curiosity and freedom. I\u0026rsquo;m someone who needs to be quite free and autonomous. Whenever my life bumps up against a value, or I\u0026rsquo;m not playing to a superpower, bad things happen. You want to do the work of understanding yourself so that you can bring your best self to work. How does that resonate with you, James?\nCreating your Values # James: Definitely. I\u0026rsquo;ve recently been thinking about values and understanding what mine are. Have you ever followed a formal process—writing down what you value and thinking deeply about it—or have your values evolved until you realised what they were? What does that look like for you?\nLisa: A bit of both. It started with understanding when I felt aligned with an organisation and what was happening there. There is a specific exercise called the values elicitation process. Interestingly, because I recently wrote this book, there is a whole chapter on values.\nWe found one of the world\u0026rsquo;s experts, Greta Bradman, who happens to live in Melbourne. She\u0026rsquo;s a psychologist and a classically trained soprano, as well as a beautiful woman and soul. She has done a lot of meta-research bringing together all the research on values, and she shared her process with us and used it on us.\nThere is a list of values, because it\u0026rsquo;s quite hard to pull them out of the ether. She has roughly 50. You go through and mark the ones that jump out at you, then cross out the ones that are definitely not you. That gives you a good sense, although you\u0026rsquo;ll still have perhaps 20 or 30. From there, you whittle the list down to about five.\nYou also want to make each value unique to you. One of mine is curiosity, but what does that mean for me? I\u0026rsquo;m curious about people. Even when ideas come from a particular person, I\u0026rsquo;m interested in what drove that person to go deeper into those ideas. For me, it\u0026rsquo;s all about people.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the values process. It\u0026rsquo;s worthwhile doing formally, but your values might also change over time. Hedonism was one of mine when I was about 20. I was thinking, \u0026ldquo;Follow the fun. Where\u0026rsquo;s the fun?\u0026rdquo; That was fine; I don\u0026rsquo;t regret it. Freedom has always been there, too. I\u0026rsquo;ve travelled a lot.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. Once you\u0026rsquo;ve mapped out your values, making decisions can become easier. Moving from law to radio, for example, might be easier once you know what you consider important and can map that onto what you do day to day.\nLisa: Would you like another exercise, James?\nJames: Of course.\nLisa: Another useful one to keep up your sleeve and do periodically is something I came up with in 2000, when I was wondering what to do next. I thought I had invented it and called it the happiness graph. I\u0026rsquo;ve since discovered that it\u0026rsquo;s a well-known exercise called the lifeline exercise; in the book, we call it the life flow exercise.\nImagine a graph with horizontal and vertical axes. The vertical axis represents subjective levels of happiness or a sense of \u0026ldquo;yay.\u0026rdquo; The horizontal axis represents time. You go back as far as you can remember, then move forward to today, mapping the highs and lows—the peaks and troughs—of your life.\nYou might remember an amazing moment in childhood, which is a peak. Perhaps your first year at university wasn\u0026rsquo;t great, which is a trough. You draw this subjective graph of highs and lows. For every peak, ask what made it a peak experience: who surrounded you, what you were doing and what the environment was like. For each trough, ask what caused it, what you were doing and whom you were with.\nThen step back and look for trends. What made those experiences peaks? You can use that insight to build more consistent peaks intentionally. Troughs happen in life and you can\u0026rsquo;t always plan to avoid them; life ebbs and flows. But instead of blindly and accidentally hitting the same trough every time, learn from it. Every day is lab day, and you don\u0026rsquo;t repeat an experiment when you know it will have a negative result and fail.\nFor example, a peak experience for me was in 1999. One of the banks—your bank, actually—was creating an amazing division. We were essentially creating internet banking, and I was asked to go on secondment as the division\u0026rsquo;s lead and only lawyer. It was such a peak experience: diverse, creative people coming together to create something no one had created before. I was in heaven.\nI had been working long hours at the law firm. At five o\u0026rsquo;clock, everyone came to my desk and asked, \u0026ldquo;What are you doing?\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m working,\u0026rdquo; and they said, \u0026ldquo;Stop working. Let\u0026rsquo;s go to the pub.\u0026rdquo; We went to the pub and had the best time together. I was valued for the quality of my work, not the quantity. That was a learning in itself. The team was full of the best and most varied people: financiers, advertisers, marketers and project managers. I loved it.\nThat was a peak. For a trough, remember the airless, windowless office where I was effectively by myself. There is a theme: creating new things with other people was a peak; being by myself was a trough.\nThis is where the exercise becomes useful. I moved into radio, which involved curiosity and communication—unreal. Then I got an amazing capital-city commercial-radio job that everybody wanted. I was like a Z-list celebrity in this place, seemingly having it all. Yet I would do six-hour stints on air, come out and cry. Looking back, I asked, \u0026ldquo;Why am I so unhappy?\u0026rdquo; I was spending six hours by myself in an airless, windowless office, talking to myself with very little interactivity. Of course, there are no other human beings around when you present weekend breakfast for six hours.\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve made a terrible mistake,\u0026rdquo; and applied to the ABC, where you work with producers and interview guests who come into the studio. I needed the objectivity to see that the problem wasn\u0026rsquo;t the industry; it was the environment.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really interesting.\nLisa: So there you go: the life flow.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good exercise. I\u0026rsquo;ll have to go away and do those things. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about your book a little already, and I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive into it more.\nBiggest Learning from the book # James: What has been your biggest learning from the book, the podcast or the show of the same name? You\u0026rsquo;ve been doing it for a while now, so what have been the biggest learnings from the whole endeavour?\nLisa: We had been producing the podcast—which is also broadcast on Radio National as this working life—for a while. We always set out to ask with curiosity: why do we work the way we do? How might we work differently? How might we be more human at work? Those questions underpinned much of what we did, James.\nBefore COVID, we would ask those questions about topics such as remote working. There was always a mix of answers, but the gist was usually, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;ll never work,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s just the way it is. Why question it?\u0026rdquo; During COVID, remote working became a huge global experiment. We found that we could do it, although each approach has pros and cons that we\u0026rsquo;re still learning about. We\u0026rsquo;re now more willing to ask why we work the way we do, how we might work differently and how we can become more human at work.\nSuddenly, these questions gained a kind of zeitgeisty traction, and we were all in it together. I call us a squad of explorers, because nobody is the expert. You have some data, James, and it differs from my data points, but together we can piece together what\u0026rsquo;s happening. That completely ignites my value of curiosity.\nPeople were really along for the ride with This Working Life, both the podcast and broadcast. It was helpful because I think we were asking the right questions for people at the right time. It was super-rewarding, exciting and humbling.\nThen I received a LinkedIn message from Arwen Summers at Hardie Grant asking, \u0026ldquo;Have you ever thought about a book?\u0026rdquo; Until then, I\u0026rsquo;d been talking to a publisher friend about whether there was a book in This Working Life, but before COVID the idea hadn\u0026rsquo;t quite formed.\nArwen asked the question at the right time. I thought there was a book because I was beginning to receive emails from people who didn\u0026rsquo;t know what to do about their careers. Some had been in the same job for 20 years; others were starting out and didn\u0026rsquo;t know how to make choices in such a crazy, chaotic environment.\nThe book formed around the question: how do you navigate your career in uncertain times? Careers are no longer linear. You don\u0026rsquo;t simply lock in, bunker down and go deeper and deeper into your expertise.\nRemember the lesson from my peaks: don\u0026rsquo;t go alone. \u0026ldquo;Lisa Leong, don\u0026rsquo;t sit by yourself in an airless, windowless office.\u0026rdquo; I had luckily been collaborating with the wonderful ABC journo and digital editor Monique Ross, and I\u0026rsquo;d noticed that she was an amazing writer. I cheekily asked her one day, \u0026ldquo;Mon, have you ever thought about writing a book? You seem to love writing. Would you like to write one with me?\u0026rdquo; She said yes.\nCollaborating with Mon was the most delightful thing on the planet, and we also worked with Arwen, our editor. We even created a soundtrack for the book. We got to work with a musician, Little Green, as well as her manager, and my husband made a video clip because we released an LP for the book. Isn\u0026rsquo;t that crazy? We started collecting people until everyone involved in the book became part of our squad of explorers.\nAnother learning was not to become obsessed with the output. You can fixate on what the finished product will be, but I said to Mon, \u0026ldquo;Let\u0026rsquo;s enjoy this and find joy in every moment.\u0026rdquo; Even the writing was joyous. We came up with ideas together and got them down. When something didn\u0026rsquo;t work, we approached it with curiosity: \u0026ldquo;That chapter failed. Let\u0026rsquo;s try again.\u0026rdquo; It was fine for me. You might need to interview Mon to see whether she also enjoyed the process.\nJames: The interrogation can take place in separate rooms.\nLisa: That\u0026rsquo;s right. \u0026ldquo;Lisa had a great time. Did you?\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;No, it was terrible.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s amazing. It certainly looks good, and although I haven\u0026rsquo;t read it yet, I definitely will. I think it\u0026rsquo;s relevant to people in my audience.\nLisa: Yay.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;ve clearly put a lot of hard work and effort into it, and it seems to have been received well by everyone. Fantastic job. There it is, for those watching. Looking at the lessons in the book and on the podcast, are there any you think people underappreciate or undervalue, or that you wish more people were interested in?\nUndervalued pieces from the book # James: Is there an area that you think is cool and important but doesn\u0026rsquo;t get the reception it should?\nLisa: A funny one is that, when I started, my producer was intrigued by the fact that I\u0026rsquo;m a biohacker. Do you know that term, James?\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard about it. Is it when someone eats foreign green food, such as herbs from an Eastern culture?\nLisa: It\u0026rsquo;s using science and technology to hack your body. I did a lot of biohacking because, before COVID, I travelled long-haul frequently—to the US, or to New Zealand nearly once a week. Air travel takes it out of your body.\nOne example of biohacking is that I would use a device to shine light into my ears. There are photoreceptors in your brain that you can reach through the ear canal, and that would help me with jet lag. I would shine it when I was meant to be awake, for example.\nA more extreme example is cryotherapy. You enter a chamber at about minus 170 degrees, as nude as possible, for roughly three minutes, and it kind of recharges your body. We produced a series in which I presented my biohacks to scientists, who assessed whether I was crazy and whether each one was worth doing. That was really fun.\nWe cover serious topics on the show, but we also have quite a lot of fun. That was one of the things I got to do on This Working Life.\nPerhaps one of the best career topics we covered was portfolio careers. The concept helped me understand my own career. Instead of seeing one thing as your main career and everything else as a side hustle—at one stage, I had a consultancy while the ABC and This Working Life were side hustles—you see your career as a portfolio. Like an investor\u0026rsquo;s portfolio, it is diversified, but everything makes sense together.\nAt the moment, I present my ABC Sunday show and This Working Life on Radio National. I coach CEOs and executives, and facilitate off-sites for organisations. That could look like a hodgepodge and make me ask which part is my main job, which is my side hustle and who I am. A portfolio career is a helpful way to manage a whole career while seeing every part as additive and working together in harmony.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the approach of Dorie Clark, whom I interviewed on the show. She introduced me to the term \u0026ldquo;portfolio career.\u0026rdquo; She actually came up with it because, early in her career, she was heavily reliant on one arm of it and then lost her job. She realised that was too many eggs in one basket.\nEspecially when you\u0026rsquo;re a freelancer, a diversified portfolio means that if something like COVID happens and you can no longer travel, you might have other aspects of your career to help you survive. That happened to me, so I had to consider what else I could do—or just take a mini-holiday for a little while.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting way to put it. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard the term before, but framing your activities as a portfolio sounds more comforting. You can see how the different parts intersect and how each gains value from the other things you\u0026rsquo;re doing at the same time.\nLisa: I think it\u0026rsquo;s important to see that relationship rather than thinking the different parts are destructive or in tension. My two ABC radio shows are an example. One is a live show broadcast on ABC Radio Melbourne on Sundays from 10 to 12. The other, This Working Life, is a highly produced weekly show on Radio National.\nRather than being in tension with This Working Life, my live broadcasting helps me present it more conversationally and listen better. For me, it\u0026rsquo;s all additive. Working in corporate environments also helps with This Working Life because I\u0026rsquo;m with real people in the real world—it\u0026rsquo;s like being in the wilderness of work. When I coach executives, I can understand what people are thinking and feeling and what the current zeitgeist is. Often, on This Working Life, I can say, \u0026ldquo;This is happening in the world of work. Let\u0026rsquo;s do our take on it. We\u0026rsquo;ve got to do this show.\u0026rdquo;\nA Failure that ended up being a success # James: I like that a lot. Has there been a failure or another time when something didn\u0026rsquo;t go to plan and it felt as though the world was crashing down, but it later worked out for the best?\nLisa: I\u0026rsquo;ve got so many. I seem to trip up a lot, James, so I\u0026rsquo;m always learning.\nOne that might be relevant to you came when I was doing really well in a client-relationship and business-development role. I kept being promoted, which was exciting, until I was offered an amazing role that I couldn\u0026rsquo;t say no to: leading business development in Asia for a large organisation. I thought, \u0026ldquo;How sexy and fun is that?\u0026rdquo;\nMy husband, my daughter—who was four or five at the time—and I moved to Hong Kong. Because I covered all of Asia, I flew around a lot, gallivanting across the region. I had an amazing, cross-cultural team of 18, and we were trying to do something special.\nI was extremely busy. My calendar and inbox were full, and I had lots of responsibility. I was absolutely loving what I thought was a high-powered role. Then I thought, \u0026ldquo;Work-life balance? I\u0026rsquo;ll train for an Olympic-distance triathlon.\u0026rdquo; I was running, swimming, cycling and working. I didn\u0026rsquo;t feel stressed, but I was waking at three in the morning with a lot on my mind. I would work for hours, take a little nap, then work for the rest of the day while flying around.\nI went on holiday with friends and, unsurprisingly, my body gave out. When you\u0026rsquo;ve spent too long running on adrenaline, all that adrenaline seeps away on holiday and your body says, \u0026ldquo;Actually, I\u0026rsquo;m stuffed.\u0026rdquo; Bang: I got shingles. I had no idea what it was; I thought shingles was a medieval disease.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a bad, rashy thing, but mine became complicated and caused secondary nerve damage called postherpetic neuralgia. My GP said, \u0026ldquo;Whatever you do, don\u0026rsquo;t Google postherpetic neuralgia.\u0026rdquo; I went home and Googled it.\nI found horror stories about people who never went back to work—never—because nerve damage causes searing pain. I was on seven different painkillers. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t hug my daughter or my husband. I would simply cry and think, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, I\u0026rsquo;ve stuffed up.\u0026rdquo; All those boxes of success—the promotion, the work-life balance of training for an Olympic-distance triathlon—felt like a big mistake because I was in bed. I was bedridden.\nI eventually recovered. A friend suggested meditation, which I\u0026rsquo;d previously dismissed by asking why I would do that. But I followed Jon Kabat-Zinn\u0026rsquo;s program, mindfulness-based stress reduction. It\u0026rsquo;s from a Massachusetts hospital and is scientifically tested, I guess.\nIt was hard, but it really helped me manage pain and stress and gain a greater sense of presence. My brother described one result by saying, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re so much nicer now.\u0026rdquo; It also helped me be with another person, truly present and focused.\nThat was when I became a biohacker and a health-first person, James. I would have been quite old by then—maybe 40. It took me a while; I\u0026rsquo;m a slow learner. Actually, I might have been in my thirties. I have no sense of time, so let\u0026rsquo;s say 30-something.\nI realised that health is so important. If you don\u0026rsquo;t have health, you\u0026rsquo;ve got nothing. Being bedridden isn\u0026rsquo;t good. I began asking what putting health first looked like for me, which led to my morning routine and many of my other practices. Although freedom is one of my values, I\u0026rsquo;m still disciplined. Structure gives you the right amount of freedom.\nJames: I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether you\u0026rsquo;re familiar with Jocko Willink, but he has a saying—\nLisa: The commando, right?\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s right. He\u0026rsquo;s like a commando. I\u0026rsquo;ve forgotten the saying.\nLisa: I don\u0026rsquo;t have it tattooed on my chest like he does.\nJames: One day we\u0026rsquo;ll get there.\nLisa\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question, Lisa, about careers and young people. I ask every guest on the show: if someone were graduating from university and heading into the world, what advice would you give them, knowing what you know now and what you\u0026rsquo;ve been through?\nLisa: Never listen to someone who gives you advice without asking questions first. That\u0026rsquo;s my advice. Isn\u0026rsquo;t that a head spin?\nThe other piece is: don\u0026rsquo;t put too much pressure on yourself. I think you find the right path, whatever road you take at a fork. There is a lot of pressure to make the right decision, but it all comes out in the wash at the end of the day.\nIf you make a misstep and accept a position you absolutely hate, tick: well done. You\u0026rsquo;ve learned what you don\u0026rsquo;t want next time. Take the pressure off; you\u0026rsquo;re okay. If every day is lab day, you\u0026rsquo;ll be fine.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good attitude: every day is lab day. Experiment, move closer to the things that give you energy—the highs you mentioned—and steer away from the lows where possible. If people want to learn more about you and connect, where should they go?\nLisa: The best place is LinkedIn. I think I\u0026rsquo;m listed as Lisa S. Leong. It\u0026rsquo;s a good place for anyone with a career, so I\u0026rsquo;d encourage you to create a basic LinkedIn page if you haven\u0026rsquo;t already. You can also follow me on Instagram as Lisa S. Leong. Those are the best places to connect with me and write to me.\nJames: Thanks so much for coming on, Lisa. It\u0026rsquo;s been a very entertaining and insightful chat.\nLisa: Thank you, James.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learned from this episode—please go to Graduate Theory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 44\n","date":"22 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/44-lisa-leong/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 44\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Lisa Leong | On Moments of Truth and Pattern Discovery","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is passionate and doing great work in the world. Startups in Africa aren\u0026rsquo;t something you hear about every day, but today, you will hear exactly why they represent a fantastic opportunity.\nThe pod this week isn\u0026rsquo;t just about this, we also dive into what it means to reskill effectively and why accountability can be a secret weapon.\nThis article was sent to subscribers of the Graduate Theory newsletter.\nSubscribe now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nCaleb Maru is the Head of Programs at EntryLevel and a Partner at Proximity Ventures.\nHe is passionate about startups in Africa and writes about his learnings in his newsletter.\n🤝 Connect with Caleb # Newsletter - https://proximityvc.substack.com/\nTwitter - https://twitter.com/calebmaru\nLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/calebmaru/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # The Africa Opportunity # Caleb\u0026rsquo;s energy and enthusiasm for Africa is infectious.\nThere were some things he said during the interview that got my attention.\nover half of Africa\u0026rsquo;s population is under 35 23% of people have their own business Founders can be extremely fast builders the culture is one of giving back and helping your friends These things, together with increased investment funding and increasing tech adoption make for a very interesting proposition.\nCaleb is doing great work in this space and is absolutely one to watch.\nEffective Reskilling # Caleb is a very effective operator. He has many skills in many different areas.\nAt EntryLevel, he helps people to reskill from one area to another.\nHere is what he had to say about those that manage this transition effectively\nA, a pretty firm commitment. I want this job, and so this is what I\u0026rsquo;m going for. B it\u0026rsquo;s being really particular about what things you need to learn. C is like learning those things and then like D is just like actively applying for roles the whole time.\nI think this applies to not only big transitions that are across industries or complete role changes, but also those changes that are more local like going for a promotion.\nYou must\nbe committed understand what you need to learn learn those things apply for the role Doing these things will make it hard to fail at what you desire to achieve.\nAccountability # Caleb spoke to the power of accountability in getting him to where he is today.\nHe attributed much of his progress to his Elephants group. (You can read about what this is here)\nAccountability is powerful. Saying your goals and ambitions in a public way, whether that is on social media or with friends is one of the best ways to stick to things that you want to do.\nUse it wisely.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Caleb Maru\n00:11 Intro\n00:30 Start of interest in Africa\n03:34 Biggest differences in startup culture between Aus and Africa\n12:20 Undervalued parts of the African startup ecosystem\n17:35 The role of governments in Africa\n21:05 Personal Learning from Africa\n23:26 Caleb at Entrylevel\n25:26 Caleb\u0026rsquo;s reskilling journey\n27:12 Traits of successful EntryLevel learners\n32:32 Caleb\u0026rsquo;s Inspirations\n35:51 Most worthwhile investment of time or money\n40:41 Advice for Graduates\n42:02 Connect with Caleb\n42:46 Outro\n","date":"15 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/43-caleb-maru/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today’s guest is passionate and doing great work in the world. Startups in Africa aren’t something you hear about every day, but today, you will hear exactly why they represent a fantastic opportunity.\n","title":"Caleb Maru | On African Startups and the Power of Accountability","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 43\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nCaleb: It\u0026rsquo;s not about, “How do I take?” It\u0026rsquo;s about, “How do I support and help as much as I can?”\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is the Head of Programs at EntryLevel, and he\u0026rsquo;s a partner at Proximity Ventures.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s passionate about startups in Africa and writes about his learnings in his newsletter. Please welcome to the show today, Caleb Maru.\nCaleb: Hey, great to be here.\nStart of interest in Africa # James: Welcome to the show, mate. I\u0026rsquo;m excited to chat to you today about all the experience you\u0026rsquo;ve got with different African startups. I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive into your experience there. In particular, we can start with how you got involved with everything in Africa. What was your first introduction to the possibility of doing this kind of thing in Africa?\nCaleb: The African background is definitely a big part of everything I\u0026rsquo;m doing. It didn\u0026rsquo;t really start as, “I want a career in Africa,” or, “This is a cool opportunity. Let me go over there.” I grew up travelling to Africa a lot, to Ethiopia in particular. That\u0026rsquo;s where my family\u0026rsquo;s from.\nWhen I was young, I\u0026rsquo;d go there and have fun. I\u0026rsquo;d hang out with my cousins, play around and see my grandparents. But on a trip when I was 14, it clicked that the conditions were very different from Australia. It had seemed really fun when I was younger, but now I saw that the living conditions, the level of opportunity and access to human rights and resources were so much worse and so fundamentally different. It was unacceptable.\nFrom when that clicked at 14, it became, “Okay, cool. I should be trying to do something to improve it and really make a difference in this region, because it\u0026rsquo;s somewhere I\u0026rsquo;m from.” I drew the luck lottery by being born and raised in Australia.\nThat was the start of it. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t this succinct or clear when I was younger, but I just knew. I wanted to do human rights law in Africa and ended up doing that for a while. I had a stint at a consultancy called Matu Consult, where I ended up becoming a partner. We did peace and security policy and economic policy across East Africa.\nI quickly realised it wasn\u0026rsquo;t as fast-moving as I wanted. It didn\u0026rsquo;t do the job I wanted, which was: how do you push the continent further? I found what did that job when I spent time with startups. I realised that startups on the continent aren\u0026rsquo;t just accessories or nice-to-haves. They\u0026rsquo;re solving really hard problems and turning those solutions into very profitable companies. You have this really ambitious young population, plus the ease of adopting technology now, so anyone can build something online. We\u0026rsquo;re at a very exciting point for startups in Africa.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s how I ended up working with and investing in startups in Africa. It\u0026rsquo;s the background that inducted me into what the realities are like and made me purpose-driven about fixing them—or trying to help and improve conditions on the continent.\nBiggest differences in startup culture between Aus and Africa # James: It\u0026rsquo;s pretty cool and exciting, mate. It\u0026rsquo;s a big challenge as well. Africa is obviously a huge continent. It\u0026rsquo;s a pretty cool journey you\u0026rsquo;re on and challenge you\u0026rsquo;re undertaking.\nWhat are some of the biggest differences in startup culture in Africa versus here in Australia? Is there much of a difference? Are there things African startups do really well, culturally or otherwise?\nCaleb: Culture-wise, I don\u0026rsquo;t know if there\u0026rsquo;s too much difference. The way they think about startups, VC and building startups is quite similar. It\u0026rsquo;s definitely funnier. There are more founders I love on Twitter who just say loose shit all the time, and I\u0026rsquo;m like, “Whoa, that\u0026rsquo;s wild.”\nMaybe a few things are different. One is speed. Founders here move fast and get things done, but some of the fastest founders I know in Australia would be standard in Africa, which is really interesting. The fast founders there whom I talk to are just crazy fast. You look at their progress and think, “You started this thing six months ago, and look where you\u0026rsquo;re at now.”\nThere are also a few structural differences. Africa is a continent, so you need to launch into different countries. You try to do that fairly quickly so you can get the lay of the land and then dominate that market. Founders are always looking at expansion and growing quickly, so that probably ties into speed as well. A founder might say, “We\u0026rsquo;re working on launching in this country.” In Australia, you can spend a while building in Australia and for the market here before launching in the US. Sometimes it takes a while to do that.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re also more frugal. Most of the startups I see are at break-even or profitable when they\u0026rsquo;re raising. Think about the leverage that gives you: if you\u0026rsquo;re not burning cash and you\u0026rsquo;re making money, you\u0026rsquo;re good. We invested in a startup that said, “We don\u0026rsquo;t need this round, but we just want to let some of our friends in.” That\u0026rsquo;s the mentality because so many of them are doing so well. They\u0026rsquo;re solving core needs, so they don\u0026rsquo;t need VC funding in the way startups here do, where you burn cash until you\u0026rsquo;re big enough to get economies of scale and become profitable.\nThose are probably the main differences. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether that speaks to the culture or simply the conditions there and the way startups on the continent raise and think about building. But it\u0026rsquo;s a fun place. It\u0026rsquo;s super fun.\nSome of these societies are so tech-enabled, but also so different. In Kenya, no one uses cash anymore; everyone transfers money. They\u0026rsquo;ve been doing that since 2007. The bank transfers that have become hot and heavy here over the last 10 years were standard for them 10 years ago. Tech is much more ingrained in society.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. We\u0026rsquo;ve probably had tech for longer in Australia and the West, but it\u0026rsquo;s interesting that it became so ingrained there even earlier than it did here. It has almost overtaken us in some ways.\nCaleb: Totally. Consumer adoption of new technologies is much higher there too, which is really exciting. I think part of that is because Africa has such a young population. I think over half of the population is under 35, and that is expected to balloon in the next 10 to 20 years. They\u0026rsquo;re on a phone and the internet from a really young age, so when they see a new app or product, they say, “Yeah, let me try that.”\nJames: One thing you mentioned was speed. You were saying some African founders are a lot faster than some of the guys here. Why do you think that is?\nCaleb: Let me think about that carefully.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s okay. Do you think they have more drive and it\u0026rsquo;s personality-driven, or is it more that there are more things that can be done, so it\u0026rsquo;s almost easier to do stuff in a practical sense? Could it be either of those?\nCaleb: There are a few threads here, and none of them are conclusive. About 23% of people in Africa have their own business. That\u0026rsquo;s how most people survive, because there literally aren\u0026rsquo;t enough jobs. You start your own thing and sell. It\u0026rsquo;s so embedded. Entrepreneurship culture isn\u0026rsquo;t like moving away from nine-to-five culture, where we\u0026rsquo;re now seeing a shift towards people wanting to work their own hours or start their own thing. Everyone has been starting their own thing forever. That\u0026rsquo;s how you make it. Being able to do that with technology is like putting it on steroids.\nAnother thread is that it\u0026rsquo;s a lot cheaper to build a team there, so it\u0026rsquo;s easier and cheaper to build one. There\u0026rsquo;s also such a big consumer market. People will take up new products and services fairly quickly, so getting your initial traction isn\u0026rsquo;t that hard. You can reinvest that into building a bigger team, and we\u0026rsquo;re seeing that happen quite a bit.\nThe other thread is that it\u0026rsquo;s harder to be a founder in Africa than it is here. You really want your startup to survive; you don\u0026rsquo;t want it to die. If your startup here dies, you\u0026rsquo;re probably all good. You\u0026rsquo;ll get a job somewhere, and you can hang out at your parents\u0026rsquo; house until you find the next thing. There, it\u0026rsquo;s probably a bit different. The founders will probably be okay, but I think there\u0026rsquo;s a higher sense of urgency because the conditions aren\u0026rsquo;t the same. Starting a company is very difficult, and you\u0026rsquo;re taking a swing because you want that company to be the thing.\nHere, I feel like many founders or entrepreneurs think, “That was a cool thing to do. I\u0026rsquo;m just going to live a normal, balanced life,” which is a good thing, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t really how the ultrafast entrepreneurs run. Those may be some of the reasons they move so quickly.\nI guess they\u0026rsquo;re also just in love with it. They love building. Most of them are self-taught developers. We recently invested in a founder who taught himself to code and has shipped nine products in the last six months. He built them all himself. He\u0026rsquo;s the only backend developer and has a team of two frontend developers. It\u0026rsquo;s incredible to watch him run. He\u0026rsquo;s also the CEO and fundraiser, and he loves it. It\u0026rsquo;s just insane drive.\nJames: There\u0026rsquo;s that saying, “Burn the boats.” If there\u0026rsquo;s no way back and you\u0026rsquo;re going all in, you have to punch even harder. Perhaps that\u0026rsquo;s part of the case there, as you mentioned.\nCaleb: I love that framework, where you burn the bridge entirely. You say, “Okay, I\u0026rsquo;m moving careers or fields. I\u0026rsquo;m not doing any more of that work, and I\u0026rsquo;m telling everyone I\u0026rsquo;m not doing any more of it.” Then it\u0026rsquo;s, “Shit, I can\u0026rsquo;t do anything else in that field. I have to go for it.”\nCaleb: “Or I have to build this company.”\nUndervalued parts of African startup ecosystem # James: It\u0026rsquo;s powerful stuff. Another question I have about Africa is: looking at startups there, what are people missing? What big things are happening there, or what ways of doing things are people in the West oblivious to? There are things that are on fire and people are smashing it, but people here might dismiss them because they\u0026rsquo;re in Africa. Are there aspects of the startup scene, particular ways of doing things or particular companies that people are missing?\nCaleb: I think I get you. What\u0026rsquo;s underappreciated about what the continent has going for it in the tech scene?\nThere are quite a few things. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting because many of them were originally framed as problems when they\u0026rsquo;re actually opportunities.\nOne is that you have this massive population that\u0026rsquo;s been shut out of access to government support and financial inclusion. People can\u0026rsquo;t get bank accounts because they don\u0026rsquo;t have the right verification or ID, or because the process is so lengthy. The unbanked population in Africa is massive. We don\u0026rsquo;t know specifically how many people it is, but it\u0026rsquo;s estimated that around 60% of people are unbanked.\nSo many things aren\u0026rsquo;t working in Africa. Combine that with a class of people who now have access to phones—phone penetration in Africa is skyrocketing—and internet connectivity. They can now access products on their phones. When you combine these hard problems with phone and internet penetration, startups have an opportunity to build solutions to really hard problems and give consumers access to things they\u0026rsquo;ve been shut out of but that we have in the West. You see that explode; it\u0026rsquo;s on fire in Africa in some ways.\nWe invested in a startup called Spleet. The problem they\u0026rsquo;re solving is that, in West Africa, it\u0026rsquo;s really expensive just to rent a place. I think the reason is that interest rates are so high that it makes more sense to pay for a house upfront than to get a loan. Landlords therefore require you to pay for a full year of rent. In Australia, that would be about $16,000. I cannot fork that out in one go, but that\u0026rsquo;s the reality there.\nThey\u0026rsquo;ve made a verification mechanism that lets you come on as a tenant and pay monthly—something we take for granted here—while the landlord gets their cash upfront. It\u0026rsquo;s like rent now, pay later.\nThere are problems that tech can solve pretty easily, but this consumer class previously didn\u0026rsquo;t have access to those solutions because they didn\u0026rsquo;t have phones or internet penetration. There are so many unique problems there.\nAnother is sending money across borders. Sending money between, say, Ethiopia and Kenya costs much more than sending money from Ethiopia to the US or Australia. Sometimes the average fees eat up about 20% of the money you send. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t work if your family is split between countries, you have friends in different countries or you\u0026rsquo;re working in different countries.\nA startup called Chipper Cash kicked off in 2018. You may or may not have heard of it. It became a $3 billion company in just four years. They\u0026rsquo;ve dropped the fees so you can now pay across countries very cheaply. Again, it\u0026rsquo;s a problem people couldn\u0026rsquo;t overcome without technology and the internet, but now they can.\nAnything that gives people in these emerging markets access to something they\u0026rsquo;ve been shut out of is a huge opportunity. I think there\u0026rsquo;s even more opportunity when you go a notch down. There are all these solutions that the middle class can now access because they have phones and internet access—rentals or sending money across borders, for example. But the real opportunity is building for people who aren\u0026rsquo;t middle class: the bottom of the pyramid, living on less than $2 or $4 a day. Building products for them is really interesting. You can reach and serve many more people who aren\u0026rsquo;t middle class yet and have been shut out, and give them access to inclusion in that way.\nThere are a lot of examples, but if I keep going, I\u0026rsquo;ll probably ramble.\nThe role of governments in Africa # James: You mentioned high interest rates for getting a mortgage. I\u0026rsquo;m interested in your perspective on the role of governments and central banks in Africa. I guess the stereotype is that there\u0026rsquo;s a lot of corruption that prevents growth in these areas, or that someone might try to do something cool but someone in government doesn\u0026rsquo;t let them. At least, I\u0026rsquo;ve heard stories like that, and I don\u0026rsquo;t think it\u0026rsquo;s unreasonable to say.\nWhat is the role there? How have you seen it change over time? Has it improved? What can startups and companies do to support that situation?\nCaleb: It is a stereotype, but I think it makes sense because we\u0026rsquo;ve had crazy instances where a government has said, “We\u0026rsquo;re turning off the internet for a month.” That happens, and those are fairly big problems for founders, especially those building in multiple markets. It\u0026rsquo;s also part of why many founders say, “We need to get out of just one country. We need to be in multiple.” It\u0026rsquo;s a stereotype, but it\u0026rsquo;s fair and founded in what\u0026rsquo;s happened historically.\nI think it\u0026rsquo;s a risk, and we need government on board for societal change. If we\u0026rsquo;re going to push a whole continent forward, government needs to work alongside tech and support it rather than fight it.\nWe have examples where that\u0026rsquo;s happened. Kenya, for instance, allowed Safaricom, a massive telecom provider, to use M-Pesa and get started with it in 2007. That really pushed Kenya forward as a country, and its economy has done a lot better than those of many neighbouring countries. Rwanda is another example. President Kagame said, in effect, “We need to rebuild, so we\u0026rsquo;re going to build up our tech scene and infrastructure and make sure this is a hub for tech.” We\u0026rsquo;re seeing it work the other way, where governments collaborate.\nWe do need government on board. But some of the best tech moves too fast for government, and my hope is that great technologies and solutions to big problems move and grow so quickly that they hit mass adoption before governments can mess with them. We\u0026rsquo;ve seen that happen with Facebook, Amazon and Google. I would love to see it happen with more African founders who are solving hard problems.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t know whether that\u0026rsquo;s true; I guess we\u0026rsquo;ll see. But I hope tech that solves fundamental problems can sidestep government until it\u0026rsquo;s big enough that it can\u0026rsquo;t be removed. Look at M-Pesa in Kenya: if you removed it, Kenya would be in a lot of trouble. It\u0026rsquo;s what the country runs on.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s exciting. You made a great point about companies in the West moving faster than governments can keep them down. Hopefully we can start to see more examples of that in Africa as well.\nPersonal Learning from Africa # James: One more question about Africa, and perhaps a more personal one: what have been some of your biggest personal learnings from operating there and seeing people work there? Is there anything you\u0026rsquo;ve taken away from being part of it?\nCaleb: It\u0026rsquo;s hard to put into words, but one learning is about the sense of community there. I think that speaks to Africa as a continent and to the different cultures in Africa, where hospitality and caring come first. I see that in the founders I talk to and the people working and building on the continent. It\u0026rsquo;s not about, “How do I take?” It\u0026rsquo;s about, “How do I support and help as much as I can?”\nI thought that culture was limited to my family, but it has been replicated in my interactions with people through work. That\u0026rsquo;s been really cool.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s something else. It was a feeling I had when I went to Ethiopia, and I think it\u0026rsquo;s even more real now: there\u0026rsquo;s so much potential for the continent. This is pretty privileged, but if you have the tools or capacity, there is space to create whatever you want. Our founders are a testament to that, when you see what they\u0026rsquo;re creating.\nAs a member of the diaspora going back to the continent, it feels that way as well. We\u0026rsquo;re seeing a big movement of great people who lived in Africa but moved overseas coming back to build on the continent because they realise how much untapped potential there is. In some ways, it\u0026rsquo;s a more hospitable place than other countries.\nI think we\u0026rsquo;re going to see a big resurgence—one of my friends put this really well, but I\u0026rsquo;ve forgotten the word—of people coming back to the continent. That will be really cool to see over the next five to 10 years.\nCaleb at EntryLevel # James: That\u0026rsquo;s exciting. I love your energy about this stuff. It\u0026rsquo;s super cool, and I\u0026rsquo;m excited to see a lot of the growth and development happening there.\nOne thing I want to touch on is your role at EntryLevel and the idea of reskilling: gaining skills and transitioning career paths. Could you give a quick introduction to EntryLevel and how that story has unfolded?\nCaleb: EntryLevel exists to plug a gap. If you\u0026rsquo;re looking for a job, especially out of university or between careers, it takes a while to find the right one. The recruitment process is hard. It\u0026rsquo;s even harder if you want to reskill for a new job and learn new skills to pivot careers.\nIn some cases, people think their option is to go back to university and study again, which takes way too long. If you pursue formal education, you might learn how to become a developer in three to four years. By the time you finish, the coding language you\u0026rsquo;re using is different. Our institutions aren\u0026rsquo;t currently built for mass reskilling.\nOn the other side, if you\u0026rsquo;re hiring talent, it takes far too long to find people. We think there\u0026rsquo;s something in between, where you can reskill people quickly and teach them how to do a job in 30, 60 or 90 days. At the end, they can be placed in a company or find their next thing.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve built a platform that teaches you how to do a job within that period. EntryLevel is a reskilling platform that teaches people how to do roles very quickly.\nCaleb\u0026rsquo;s reskilling journey # James: That\u0026rsquo;s super cool. How have you approached reskilling and learning new things in your own life? You\u0026rsquo;re someone who\u0026rsquo;s across a lot of things and has a lot of skills. How have you gone about the reskilling process in your journey?\nCaleb: I\u0026rsquo;m fortunate that I never took on a very technical role. Many of my roles didn\u0026rsquo;t require the hard skills that something like data analysis or product management would. I did learn some no-code stuff, but that was out of interest rather than for a role.\nUntil recently, I\u0026rsquo;ve almost never had direct clarity about where I wanted my career to go. I\u0026rsquo;ve never thought, “I need to reskill for this role and put my time and effort into that.” I\u0026rsquo;ve been able to learn little bits of things, but I\u0026rsquo;ve never had a holistic experience where I could say, “Now I\u0026rsquo;m proficient in this skill and can do this role.” That\u0026rsquo;s also where EntryLevel comes in.\nIt was part of my experience at university. I was learning to do law, but it was going to take me five years on top of my Bachelor of Arts. It just felt too long. When I left my law degree, I thought, “This law degree is inhibiting me. It\u0026rsquo;s preventing me from continuing with my career rather than enabling it.” Five years is ages. That\u0026rsquo;s where the need really resonates: how do we do this as quickly as possible?\nTraits of successful EntryLevel learners # James: I think you\u0026rsquo;re a great example of someone who\u0026rsquo;s gone out and done a whole bunch of stuff. When we spoke recently, you said many of the people involved with EntryLevel aren\u0026rsquo;t even in Australia; they\u0026rsquo;re all over the world.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re exposed to people who succeed through the programs, do well and then get jobs afterwards. Have you thought about their common threads? Are there things that someone who performs well in the reskilling program and then gets a job tends to do particularly well?\nCaleb: Definitely. There are quite a few examples. We get testimonials and posts in one of our channels. Our whole thing is reskilling a billion people, and each week we get a couple of stories: this person got a job, this person landed a gig and told us about it, or someone tagged us in something. We definitely see it.\nI spent quite a bit of time at the beginning talking to people and trying to understand how they landed their roles. One learning—which I think applies to anything—is that transitioning jobs when you\u0026rsquo;re very serious about it comes with, first, a firm commitment: “I want this job, so this is what I\u0026rsquo;m going for.” Second, you need to be particular about what you need to learn. Third, you learn those things. Fourth, you actively apply throughout the entire process.\nWe capture someone at one part of their reskilling process, ideally, but reskilling, transitioning roles or getting into a new role takes about six to nine months if you\u0026rsquo;re starting from scratch with no other skills. The people who succeed have planned how they\u0026rsquo;re going to learn, take initiative and try everything.\nI think the same applies if you\u0026rsquo;re starting a company or trying to build something from scratch: you need to try relentlessly and throw darts at the air until something lands. That\u0026rsquo;s what the people who find roles through our program have in common.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. One thing I\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking about a lot is clarity about what you want for your own life. You mentioned that in your answer: these people are clear about the end state they want.\nEarlier, you said you\u0026rsquo;d been unsure where your career would go, but recently you\u0026rsquo;ve discovered, or had moments of clarity about, where you want to take things. For people who don\u0026rsquo;t yet have a particular thing they want to pursue—and perhaps the journey is different for everyone—do you have any words of wisdom while they\u0026rsquo;re still hunting for something that really excites them?\nCaleb: Definitely. To add to that point, there\u0026rsquo;s a really good book on productivity called Getting Things Done by David Allen. One of his points is that the first thing you do if you want to get anything done is figure out exactly why: who are you in the world, and what does this mean to you? Otherwise, there\u0026rsquo;s dissonance between yourself and the task. If you\u0026rsquo;re doing things for the sake of it, you\u0026rsquo;ll never get into them in the same way someone else does—or you might, but then you\u0026rsquo;ll ask, “Why do I do that?” It\u0026rsquo;s so important to understand what that is for you.\nFor me, it was a combination of what I care about in the world, what I think I can do and what I\u0026rsquo;m good at. It was also a lot of testing. To be honest, it was heaps of testing.\nA better approach than declaring, “I want to do this thing,” might be cancelling out the things you don\u0026rsquo;t want to do. I tried law and thought, “I don\u0026rsquo;t want to do law. That\u0026rsquo;s not the field I want.” Then I tried nonprofits and thought, “It feels good, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t a place I want to stay.” I tried policy and realised, “This also isn\u0026rsquo;t the place I want to be. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to build a career here.”\nFor me, it was more a process of elimination: I know why I\u0026rsquo;m doing it, so let me try all these ways to get there. Then I eliminated everything that didn\u0026rsquo;t work.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t stress about finding the right thing. Try as many things as you can that seem like they might be enjoyable, then figure out what works and what doesn\u0026rsquo;t. You can\u0026rsquo;t really think your way to the next thing; you need to experience it.\nCaleb\u0026rsquo;s Inspirations # James: We\u0026rsquo;re on a deep thread at the moment, and I\u0026rsquo;d like to continue it. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a few more deep, personal questions to finish with. One is about inspiration. Is there a person or thing that inspires you—perhaps someone you look up to, a mentor, or someone you aspire to be like? Is there anyone or anything in your life that fulfils that role?\nCaleb: To be honest, this might sound cocky, but there are definitely people who inspire me. I\u0026rsquo;ll get to that. When I used to put people on pedestals, I realised they were humans as well. Instead of saying, “I want to be like this person,” I reframed it as, “These are the traits I want from this person. I want to be as good at investing as them.”\nI turned it from, “I want to be like this investor,” or, “I want to have this person\u0026rsquo;s intellect,” into, “How do I become a better investor than this person? How do I have more intellect than this person?” I reframed it from, “I really look up to you,” to, “I want that, so I\u0026rsquo;m going to work towards it.” I\u0026rsquo;m competitive in my own head with the people I look up to. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether that sounds cocky, but that\u0026rsquo;s how I think about it.\nI think a lot of my own community—the people I spend time with and hang out with—are people I really look up to, and that\u0026rsquo;s why I spend time with them. They\u0026rsquo;re super empathetic or intelligent, brilliant investors or great operators. You\u0026rsquo;ve had a few of the people I surround myself with on the podcast. I look up to them, and they\u0026rsquo;re also my peers.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been really cool to switch from looking up to and idolising people to thinking, “I want to be more like them,” bringing those people in and keeping them close. I learn a lot from that.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s a great point. If you idolise someone too much, perhaps you\u0026rsquo;ll almost never be as good as they are. You\u0026rsquo;ll think, “I wish I were as good as them. I\u0026rsquo;m just the little boy who can\u0026rsquo;t do anything. I\u0026rsquo;ll never be that good.”\nWhereas, if you view them more as an equal and really strive to be as good as them, as you said, it\u0026rsquo;s a slight reframe. It becomes, “We\u0026rsquo;re both capable of the same things, and I\u0026rsquo;m working towards being as capable as you. I\u0026rsquo;m on the journey.” That makes sense.\nCaleb: Exactly. Idolising people is fine, but one frame of mind really pushes your self-belief. I\u0026rsquo;d rather have that than say, “I really love this person.” It\u0026rsquo;s more like, “I\u0026rsquo;m striving to be that person or better, or even to have that person respect me.”\nMost worthwhile investment of time or money # James: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. I like that a lot. One more question on a similar thread: this is a classic Tim Ferriss question, but in getting to where you are today, what has been your most worthwhile investment of time or money? Is there anything you\u0026rsquo;ve invested in that, looking back, really propelled you?\nCaleb: There are probably two things, and they\u0026rsquo;re generic, so I\u0026rsquo;m sorry they\u0026rsquo;re not straightforward answers.\nOne is relationships. Almost to a fault, I invest a lot of time in relationships: maintaining them, making sure I\u0026rsquo;m connecting with and appreciating people, and being present. That has been one of the best investments because those relationships bring about amazing opportunities. Many of the opportunities I\u0026rsquo;ve had have come from people I\u0026rsquo;ve known, people who appreciated that I gave them the time, or people to whom I\u0026rsquo;ve given as much as I could.\nThose relationships have paid off a lot. They\u0026rsquo;ve brought me people who back and support me, and whom I really want to support as well. My group of peers, the people I work with and my network are some of the best things you can invest in.\nOn the personal side, one of the best investments I\u0026rsquo;ve made and systems I\u0026rsquo;ve had is called The Elephants. It\u0026rsquo;s a group—have you heard of it, James?\nJames: No.\nCaleb: Okay, cool. Much of the tech scene is familiar with it because an article about it got pretty big. You have a group of people who meet every week to discuss how their week went. You set professional, physical, financial, career and other goals for 10 years, three years, one year, three months and one month, and then do weekly reviews.\nThat long-term view frames your goals. You can say, “Okay, that\u0026rsquo;s my 10-year goal, and this is how everything feeds into it.” The weekly accountability with people you really trust is no-bullshit: this is what happened this week, this is what I struggled with and this is what I\u0026rsquo;m thinking right now.\nThat support network and the people I do it with are amazing. The system means it isn\u0026rsquo;t just me who\u0026rsquo;s invested in my goals; it\u0026rsquo;s my team. If I don\u0026rsquo;t do something, I\u0026rsquo;m not just disappointing myself, I\u0026rsquo;m disappointing the guys. That has definitely been one of the best investments I\u0026rsquo;ve made.\nJames: That sounds so good. I would participate in one of those in a heartbeat. Creating a long-term vision for yourself is one of the hardest things. Breaking it down into yearly and monthly goals turns the dream into things you can actually do. The accountability is also extremely powerful and useful.\nCaleb: Accountability is so overpowered. It\u0026rsquo;s scary how powerful it is. If you have accountability for something, it makes you do things. That\u0026rsquo;s why I only turn on the accountability trigger when I know I need to do something. Otherwise, I\u0026rsquo;m like, “No, no, I don\u0026rsquo;t need that yet.”\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s super good. We haven\u0026rsquo;t got much time left, but there was a TED Talk—I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether it\u0026rsquo;s still up—from probably a few years ago called “Extreme Productivity.” The guy who gave it had bruises on his face. He was talking about extreme productivity and accountability to the point of physical punishment if you didn\u0026rsquo;t do something, which is why it\u0026rsquo;s called extreme.\nCaleb: That\u0026rsquo;s so hectic.\nJames: The guy had done some pretty cool stuff and was obviously giving a TED Talk as well, which is pretty cool. It was an interesting TED Talk. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether it\u0026rsquo;s still up, but I remember seeing it.\nAdvice for Graduates # James: That\u0026rsquo;s extreme. Don\u0026rsquo;t do this sort of thing. Anyway, I remembered that while we were talking. Sidetrack. We\u0026rsquo;re right at the end now, so I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, Caleb. It\u0026rsquo;s a question I ask all the guests: if you were graduating—or perhaps quitting university early—again now, what advice would you give someone at that stage in their life?\nCaleb: The main thing is to take it easy. You have so much time ahead of you. Your twenties are made for screwing up. You\u0026rsquo;re supposed to screw up as many times as you want in your twenties, and it\u0026rsquo;s cool.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s quite a lot of safety here. If everything goes wrong, you can probably get a job somewhere, or you might have a support network to help you out. Don\u0026rsquo;t worry too much if things don\u0026rsquo;t go well in your twenties. It\u0026rsquo;s meant to be kind of shit, and also really fun.\nI\u0026rsquo;m definitely experiencing that now, where I think, “Why don\u0026rsquo;t I have my shit together in some aspects of my life?” Then I tell myself, “It\u0026rsquo;s cool. It\u0026rsquo;s cool.”\nHave as much fun as you can, do things you enjoy and say yes to as many things as you can that are helpful for you.\nConnect with Caleb # James: Bang. That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. You\u0026rsquo;ve given us a lot of wisdom in the chat today, Caleb, and I really appreciate it. For the folks listening, if they want to investigate more about you, find out more about what you do and follow you in various places, where should they go?\nCaleb: I share a lot of what I\u0026rsquo;m doing in Africa on LinkedIn, where I\u0026rsquo;m just Caleb Maru—M-A-R-U, C-A-L-E-B. I should post a bit on Twitter, where I\u0026rsquo;m also Caleb Maru.\nJames: Nice. Get around it, folks. It\u0026rsquo;s been fantastic having you on the show today, Caleb. I really appreciate you spending some time with us, and we\u0026rsquo;ll catch you around soon.\nCaleb: Thanks, James. This was super fun.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways—the things I learned from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 43\n","date":"15 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/43-caleb-maru/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 43\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Caleb Maru | On African Startups and the Power of Accountability","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Table of Contents # HashiCorp Terraform Associate My Background Resources for Study Terraform Associate Tutorial List Terraform Certified Udemy Course Terraform Practice Exams Exam Review Lessons for Next Time Conclusion HashiCorp Terraform Associate # Today, I sat and passed the HashiCorp Terraform Associate exam.\nAfter completing the exam, I hope to give guidance to others about how I went about studying for it and what worked for me.\nI passed the exam with a score of 73%. HashiCorp doesn\u0026rsquo;t publish the passing mark but it seems to be around 70%. Exams like this might have passing grades dependent on which questions you get too, but generally 70% is a good guide.\nHashiCorp is creating the next version of this exam currently. It\u0026rsquo;s scheduled for release later this year so keep an eye out for that.\nYou can find the full curriculmn for the exam here.\nMy Background # I decided to start studying for the exam on the 12th of August and sat the final exam on the 20th.\nI had seem some Terraform before, I\u0026rsquo;ve done some IAM related changes at work and also created some buckets and BigQuery instances in my own time. I would say I have some experience with Terraform, but definitely not an expert by any stretch.\nHashiCorp recommends that you have basic terminal skills and basic understanding of on premises and cloud architecture before sitting the exam.\nIt was a pretty quick turnaround for me to study for the exam (about 1 week), but I didn\u0026rsquo;t think the study material was too difficult and thought I had enough time in the end. The exam is an associate level exam and isn\u0026rsquo;t meant to test you at an expert or professional level. The Terraform Associate is the highest level exam you can sit for Terraform, perhaps in future a more advanced exam will be offered.\nResources for Study # I used the following to study for the exam:\nTerraform Associate Tutorial List # Rating 7/10\nThis is the official study guide for the exam. Everything you need is here, and it\u0026rsquo;s all provided by HashiCorp.\nSince they provide this resource, it has everything you need to pass the exam.\nI did some of the modules here but not all, I found it more valuable to read the documentation for certain pieces that I needed more information on.\nTerraform Certified Udemy Course # Rating 8/10\nThis course has some great info and goes beyond what is required for the exam. It\u0026rsquo;s much more of a practical approach to Terraform and was really valuable in helping me understand best practices and file setups etc.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t go through the entire course before sitting the exam, I ended up just using the practice exams. However, I can see myself returning to this course again in the future.\nTerraform Practice Exams # Rating 10/10\nThis set of practice exams was easily my most valuable resource. I did the set of exams twice, so 10 practice exams.\nUnlike some exam courses on Udemy, this course is created by people that write the actual exams, so the questions are highly relevant to the exam material.\nAfter going through each exam twice, I then sat my lowest rated exam on the morning of the real exam.\nHere were my attempts and their percentage:\nAttempt Date Score Exam Number Improvement on Previous 12/8/22 45% 1 - 13/8/22 73% 2 - 13/8/22 82% 3 - 14/8/22 70% 4 - 15/8/22 85% 5 - 16/8/22 77% 1 171% 17/8/22 77% 2 105% 18/8/22 89% 3 109% 18/8/22 72% 4 103% 19/8/22 94% 5 111% 20/8/22 89% 4 124% As you can see, I started off fairly badly but by the end I was getting pretty good results. I felt comfortable once I was hitting 85%+, that meant I had some buffer in my marks to still get the 70% required for the certification.\nExam Review # The exam was very similar to what I had encountered in the practice tests. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t quite the same though and some things did trip me up.\nA bunch of my questions had terraform taint in them, which I thought had been depreciated so that confused me.\nThe practice exams that I did (written by the writers of the actual exams) also stated that some questions would require typing commands. None of my questions required this. This makes me think that perhaps I had some questions that were out of date, or the exam doesn\u0026rsquo;t actually require you to do this.\nAnyway I ended up passing the exam! My final score was 73% which was a bit lower than what I had been getting in the practice tests. Since I did use these as my primary method of study, it was expected that my learning material overfit on the practice tests and left some concepts that hadn\u0026rsquo;t been convered. That\u0026rsquo;s ok though because I ended up with a passing grade.\nLessons for Next Time # If I had to do this exam again, I would continue to make the practice exams a big focus of my study. One thing that I could have done better was not rely on the practice exams as much as I did. While studying using the practice exams meant that I was able to learn very quickly, I had still had some content in my final exam that I hadn\u0026rsquo;t seen before. Taking a more rounded approach and tackling the exams once I had learnt the material, rather than learning the material through the exams, would have resulted in a higher final exam mark.\nConclusion # Overall, it was a good experience studying and sitting the exam. I feel that my Terraform skills have dramatically improved as a result. I now have a much better understanding of the internals of Terraform and am more able to write effective Terraform code.\nIf you enjoyed this post, consider subscribing to my email list 👇\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"11 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/hashicorp-terraform-associate/","section":"Writing","summary":"Table of Contents # HashiCorp Terraform Associate My Background Resources for Study Terraform Associate Tutorial List Terraform Certified Udemy Course Terraform Practice Exams Exam Review Lessons for Next Time Conclusion HashiCorp Terraform Associate # Today, I sat and passed the HashiCorp Terraform Associate exam.\n","title":"Passing the HashiCorp Terraform Associate Exam","type":"posts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Without a clear direction for your life, you will be swept up by people with a plan and end up in places you didn\u0026rsquo;t intend to go.\nWith a plan, you will make better decisions and have better life outcomes.\nThis depth of planning is a common thread amongst all guests in the previous 41 episodes of the show.\nThis article was sent to subscribers of the Graduate Theory newsletter.\nSubscribe now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nToday\u0026rsquo;s episode has no guest, rather it is a chat with me about the importance of creating a life and career plan for yourself.\n👇 Creating the Plan # Option 1 - Personal Mission Statement # The first way to think about your plan is with a personal mission statement.\nThink about this, you\u0026rsquo;ve just died and you are attending your funeral.\nCertain people get up to speak about you\na family member a friend a work colleague someone from your community What do they say about you?\nWhat do you wish they would say about you?\nUse this inspiration to create a mission statement for yourself.\nA constitution of you.\nBe creative, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be written. It can be a song, a poem, or a vision board. Anything you can imagine.\nThe length is not important.\nOption 2 - The Life Vision # The second method is to create a vision for your life. You can start by thinking about what you want your life to look like.\nThese questions may provide you with inspiration.\nDo\nHow much control do I have over my schedule? What does my daily routine look like? What’s my work-life balance? What’s the importance of what I do? What hobbies do I have? Be\nWhat kind of friend am I? What do people know me for? How do other people think of me? How do I feel at work? How do I feel at home? How do I feel around my family? Have\nWhere do I live? What kind of house do I live in? How much money do I make? What kind of influence do I have? What’s my family like? What is my partner like? Give\nWhat do I help people with? What causes do I contribute to? This can be changed, updated, or revised in the future.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to have these things though\nFurther Reading # Books I would read to investigate this topic further 👇\nSo Good They Can’t Ignore You - Cal Newport Business Model You - Tim Clark 7 Habits of Highly Effective People - Steven Covey Be Your Future Self Now - Benjamin P. Hardy Get the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Lifestyle Career Plan\n00:59 Career Planning\n01:55 Why Career Plan?\n06:05 Career Planning Examples\n11:58 Critiques\n13:26 Creating the Plan\n15:28 Conclusion\n16:43 Outro\n","date":"8 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/42-on-creating-a-lifestyle-career-plan/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Without a clear direction for your life, you will be swept up by people with a plan and end up in places you didn’t intend to go.\n","title":"On Creating a Lifestyle Career Plan","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 42\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Here\u0026rsquo;s a question for you. If I gave you a bunch of jigsaw pieces and asked you to complete the puzzle, what\u0026rsquo;s the first thing you would do? Chances are, you\u0026rsquo;d grab the box and look at the image you\u0026rsquo;re trying to create. You\u0026rsquo;d connect the jigsaw pieces in such a way that they look like what\u0026rsquo;s on the box.\nNow, here\u0026rsquo;s a thought: a jigsaw is much like your life, right? Except most of us are given these jigsaw pieces without knowing what the picture looks like. We haven\u0026rsquo;t developed a clear plan. So, in today\u0026rsquo;s episode of Graduate Theory, we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about career planning, why it\u0026rsquo;s so important and some different approaches you can take.\nI\u0026rsquo;m hoping this will change your life and career for the better.\nCareer Planning # James: First, I want to look at the common traits I see in people who have previously come on the podcast. A lot of these high achievers have a high degree of initiative and drive, as well as passion for what they want to do.\nBut that comes with a clear aim, right? They have this level of initiative and drive, but they\u0026rsquo;re aiming at a clear target. They have a clear vision and a certain amount of clarity about exactly what they want to do. This allows them to take initiative in effective ways.\nReflecting on this, I realised that, at least for myself, I don\u0026rsquo;t think I have a really detailed plan for my life, the things I\u0026rsquo;m doing and how it all aligns. That led me to discover this idea of career and life planning.\nWhy Career Plan? # James: Why do you actually need a plan? Why is it helpful? The first reason is that it\u0026rsquo;s going to make decision-making a lot easier. Imagine you\u0026rsquo;ve finished university, you\u0026rsquo;ve been working for a couple of years and you\u0026rsquo;re presented with the opportunity to do a master\u0026rsquo;s degree at a university.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re in two minds about whether to pursue the master\u0026rsquo;s degree or continue working in your career and doing your current job. Which one should you choose? It\u0026rsquo;s a tough decision, right? Perhaps both options are good. How are we going to decide?\nThe key is understanding where we want to go in the future and what we want our lifestyle to look like. We can then choose which option will get us closer to our desired lifestyle. Without that desired lifestyle in place, what happens in these situations?\nThis is just one example. Do you become a consultant or not? Do you join a startup, or do you stay in corporate? Any number of these questions can be answered much more easily if you have a desired end state in mind. If you know what you want your lifestyle to look like and that vision excites you, it\u0026rsquo;s much easier to choose between the options.\nThe second reason this is a good approach concerns comparison with others. One thing I think we face a lot as young people—and that I certainly face all the time—is trying not to compare ourselves to other people.\nI try not to compare myself to people around my age who have done cooler stuff than me, and there are certainly plenty of them. There will always be people who have done more than you have. But one way to minimise this, or clear the clutter around comparing yourself to others, is to be clear about your vision for your own life. Then it doesn\u0026rsquo;t actually matter what other people do. If I\u0026rsquo;m pursuing the things I want to do for reasons I\u0026rsquo;ve selected, what other people are doing and achieving matters much less to me.\nIf someone else is achieving more than me, that\u0026rsquo;s fine, because I\u0026rsquo;m pursuing the things I want to do. That\u0026rsquo;s the end of it. There\u0026rsquo;s no real need to compare yourself to others. I think having a career plan in place will certainly help with this comparison trap.\nThe third reason is the idea of getting lost. This comes from a guy called Clayton Christensen, a business leader and thought leader who released a bunch of books. One of them is called How Will You Measure Your Life?\nHow will you actually decide what you want to do? The book is tangentially related to the topic we\u0026rsquo;re discussing today. Christensen described how everyone in his business class at Harvard graduated and went off to do amazing things. Ten years later, he looked around to see where people were.\nMany had gone down the corporate route, but then gone too far and almost lost their way. They had gone so deep into their careers that some had become divorced or no longer had a good family environment. Their careers had come at the cost of many other things.\nHis point is that pursuing these things isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily bad. But you can pursue them and lose track of where you are in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps having a good family and a good family life was something you really wanted, but you got so lost in your career that you lost track of how that part of your life was going.\nOne way to fix this problem, or at least reduce the risk of it occurring, is to have a clear plan for what you want your lifestyle to look like and stick to it closely. Once you have the plan, don\u0026rsquo;t deviate from it. That can help prevent situations where you end up somewhere you didn\u0026rsquo;t expect or want to be.\nCareer Planning Examples # James: One thing I noticed is that, when we look at the school system and how we\u0026rsquo;re taught to think about what we want to do when we\u0026rsquo;re older, it\u0026rsquo;s often, “Do you want to be an engineer, a lawyer or a teacher?”\nA bunch of career paths are laid out for you, and the idea is that you choose whichever seems best at the time. “I guess I enjoy math, so I\u0026rsquo;ll be an engineer,” or, “I guess I enjoy reading and writing, so perhaps I\u0026rsquo;ll do law.” Whatever it is, that\u0026rsquo;s usually the extent of it. There\u0026rsquo;s no real planning beyond that.\nOne key switch we can make is to think about the end state first, then answer those questions. We can ask, “What do I want my life to look like?” and then, “Which career path would best help me create that life?” This is a fundamental shift and something I think is quite beneficial.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve found three notable places where this approach appears, though it certainly gets mentioned in many more. These are three I\u0026rsquo;ve come across recently that I found really interesting.\nThe first is The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. It\u0026rsquo;s a fantastic book, and I highly recommend reading it. Habit number two is called “Begin with the End in Mind.” The cornerstone of this habit is that, when starting a new project or undertaking, you should understand what you want to do or what the goal looks like, then reverse-engineer it and work out what you need to do and when. This can be applied to small-scale things or, in this case, large-scale things like your entire life or career. I\u0026rsquo;ve just read the book, and it contains some really good thoughts.\nAll things are created twice: once in the mind and once in reality. Things aren\u0026rsquo;t created in reality until they\u0026rsquo;ve first been thought of. Facebook, for example, was once a thought and then became a reality. The desk I\u0026rsquo;m using was once a thought; someone decided to make it, and now they\u0026rsquo;ve made it. The same applies to this laptop: someone decided to make an M1 Mac, and now it has come into existence.\nTo apply that idea to career planning, the life and career you want cannot be realised unless you first understand and think about exactly what you want. I think this is a crucial step, and that was a great analogy and a great way to put it.\nThe second place I found this was in Jordan Peterson\u0026rsquo;s Self-Authoring Program. If you\u0026rsquo;re not familiar with Jordan Peterson, he\u0026rsquo;s a really famous psychologist. He\u0026rsquo;s often in the media for controversial political things, but that\u0026rsquo;s beside the point today. Psychology is where he\u0026rsquo;s really good, and he certainly has a lot of good content around this. One of his stellar programs is called the Self-Authoring Program.\nIn this program, you create your personal heaven and your personal hell. Your personal heaven is an ideal state: what you really want your life to look like. It begins with the end in mind. You also create a personal hell: what you really don\u0026rsquo;t want your life to look like and what would be a horrible experience for you. These are unique to you and aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily universal.\nImagine these as two poles, with you somewhere in the middle. We want to get you closer to heaven and further from hell. There are two opposing forces: the heaven state pulls you towards it, while the hell state pushes you away. It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting approach. It combines beginning with the end in mind with perhaps beginning with the reverse end in mind—a bad state.\nAnother similar thought comes from Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett\u0026rsquo;s second-in-command guy. He often says to think about how you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t do something and then do the opposite—the thing you do want to do. It\u0026rsquo;s often easier to think about what you don\u0026rsquo;t want than what you do want.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the second approach, which I think is really cool. The third place I\u0026rsquo;ve seen this is in Cal Newport. Cal Newport is someone I really admire and respect. He\u0026rsquo;s an author and a professor, among other things. He calls this approach to career planning “lifestyle-centric career planning.” You begin with a certain lifestyle in mind—what you want your life to look like—and then plan your career from there. This makes things much easier for a number of reasons.\nThose are three different approaches I\u0026rsquo;ve seen. This kind of clarity is also common among many guests I\u0026rsquo;ve had on the podcast. These three sources are all incredibly well respected, and they all say the same thing. There are many more I don\u0026rsquo;t have time to go through that also say it. Many successful people have this in common: they know exactly what they want and have a lot of clarity about what they want to do.\nCritiques # James: There are some critiques of creating a plan. Overall, I think it\u0026rsquo;s quite a good approach, but one way to look at it is left-to-right versus right-to-left planning. On the right-hand side, you have the end state, and on the left, you have the current state.\nRight-to-left planning means starting with the end and reverse-engineering your way back to where you are now. Left-to-right planning means starting where you are now and then working towards the end state on the right. I think that allows for more serendipity in your career: you haven\u0026rsquo;t necessarily planned your next career move in great detail.\nStill, with both right-to-left and left-to-right planning, there is a right-hand side—the plan. I think the plan is important whether you take a more serendipitous approach to your career or reverse-engineer things quite tightly. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to reverse-engineer things in great detail far in advance, which is one problem with the approach. Even so, I think you must always have a plan.\nAt least for myself, I\u0026rsquo;m seeing that having a plan in place will be incredibly useful. Having a desired lifestyle state that you want to reach will be extremely effective.\nCreating the Plan # James: How do you actually create your lifestyle plan? There are two different methods I\u0026rsquo;ve come across that I\u0026rsquo;ll be using. The first comes from this book, and that is to create a mission statement—something for you that acts like your own constitution.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve all heard of the American Constitution, a document that\u0026rsquo;s very strictly followed. We want to do something like that for ourselves. How would a mission statement best represent you? What would yours look like? You could also think about how the organisation where you work might have a mission statement, slogan or broader mission. What is your mission? What are you setting out to achieve? What values do you have? What do you want people to say about you? These are great questions to answer.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to be creative with this. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily have to be written. You can make a song or a vision board—whatever works. The point is to create an ideal state in our minds and then try to stick to it.\nThe second method is one I\u0026rsquo;ve seen on LinkedIn and in a number of other approaches. Recently, previous podcast guest Adam Geha recommended answering a bunch of questions and writing out your answers in detail. The questions fall into four categories: do, be, have and give. What things do you do? What things do you have? Who are you—what do people know you for? Then, what do you give back to the community? Perhaps it\u0026rsquo;s financial. How are you involved, and what do you do there?\nThat is super cool. You can gain clarity by answering these questions. If you want a full list, I have one in the newsletter for this episode. You can find a list of good questions and techniques there to help you get started.\nConclusion # James: I think this is a super-cool idea and something I\u0026rsquo;ll be getting started on. Things like this take a lot of time; you can\u0026rsquo;t just sit down and write it in 10 minutes. At least, I\u0026rsquo;ve found it hard while trying to write mine. It certainly gets difficult.\nI hope this helps, because some of this is what I\u0026rsquo;m going through and actively looking at right now. Yesterday, at the time of recording, I was doing a lot of this work. I think it\u0026rsquo;s super interesting and fundamental.\nAt least for myself, I\u0026rsquo;d flirted with these kinds of ideas before. I\u0026rsquo;d thought, “That\u0026rsquo;s probably a good idea,” but hadn\u0026rsquo;t actually done it. From what I\u0026rsquo;ve seen, this is likely one of the best activities you can do to gain real clarity about exactly what you want your life to look like. It can really help you make career decisions and set you on a path you\u0026rsquo;re both excited about and interested in pursuing.\nOutro # James: Hopefully this episode helped everyone. If you enjoyed it, please go to the newsletter. The link is in the episode description, where you can read more and find some of those leading questions.\nThanks so much for listening to today\u0026rsquo;s episode. If you enjoyed it, please consider subscribing wherever you are. Without further ado, we\u0026rsquo;ll see you in next week\u0026rsquo;s episode. Thanks.\n← Back to episode 42\n","date":"8 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/42-on-creating-a-lifestyle-career-plan/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 42\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Creating a Lifestyle Career Plan","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":"Hey Richard,\nI\u0026rsquo;ve put your message and some thoughts below.\nLet me know if I can do anything else to help. I\u0026rsquo;m happy to have a chat via Zoom. Here is my Calendly.\nQuestion # There are so many opportunities in tech, and so many are interconnected. It\u0026rsquo;s difficult to decide which field would yield the highest return for me. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure where to get advice from and have been thinking about looking out for a mentor.\nDo you have any idea who to talk to what to read etc? Again really appreciate your help!\nMy Thoughts # There probably isn\u0026rsquo;t just one single career that you could choose that would \u0026ldquo;yield high returns\u0026rdquo;. As you said, tech is quite interconnected, so there are likely many paths to a high return. Perhaps one initial point is to be less concerned with which exact role or thing you end up doing, start with something you think is exciting and that you have some skills in.\nOne good quote to guide you with this is \u0026ldquo;Do what looks like play to you but feels like work to others\u0026rdquo;.\nAnother good exercise for life and career planning is to think about what you want your life to look like in the future.\nThis will help you to have a clear vision of your future, and from there, we can work back to decide which path is best for you right now.\nWrite down in detail things like:\nHow much control do I have over my schedule? How much money do I make? What’s the importance of what I do? What type of work? Where do I live? What kind of how do I live in? What hobbies do I have? What’s my social life like? What’s my work-life balance? What’s my family like? How do other people think of me? What does my daily routine look like? Get very clear on these.\nNow you have this, think about which direction you\u0026rsquo;d like to go that would best match to what you want your life to be like in the future.\nIs it a role in a certain industry? A certain kind of tech role? Is it a part-time or full-time role? Is it fully remote or in the office?\nOnce we have the end in mind, making choices about what you would like to do next becomes much easier.\nResources # Books I would read\nSo Good They Can\u0026rsquo;t Ignore You - Cal Newport Business Model You People to reach out to:\npeople doing things you are thinking of doing, ask them questions about what they do daily and what tools they use. To do this, you can just dm people on Linkedin, people are usually very helpful! As I mentioned, I\u0026rsquo;m happy to get on a call with you also if you\u0026rsquo;d like.\nIf you have any questions or thoughts about all this, please let me know!\n","date":"5 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/r/richard_pinter/","section":"Rs","summary":"Hey Richard,\nI’ve put your message and some thoughts below.\nLet me know if I can do anything else to help. I’m happy to have a chat via Zoom. Here is my Calendly.\nQuestion # There are so many opportunities in tech, and so many are interconnected. It’s difficult to decide which field would yield the highest return for me. I’m not sure where to get advice from and have been thinking about looking out for a mentor.\n","title":"Richard Pinter - Career Suggestions","type":"r"},{"content":"","date":"5 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/r/","section":"Rs","summary":"","title":"Rs","type":"r"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Working in high-performance cultures like MBB is a tough gig. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest did it for 10 years, and he\u0026rsquo;s now on a mission to transform the pet care industry.\nIn today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we unpack his learnings from many years as an operator in the trenches.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, do it now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nGabriel Guedes (aka GG) co-founded Lyka Pet Food and currently leads its Operations.\nPreviously, GG was an Associate Partner at Bain \u0026amp; Company where he worked for over 10 years.\nHe is also an angel investor and advisor.\n🤝 Connect with GG # Lyka - https://lyka.com.au/\nLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kawao/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Optionality is Great (but can be dangerous) # Building options early in your career is great.\nHaving more options is better because it means that if better opportunities arise, we are in a more advantageous position to take them.\nHowever, there are problems with having too many options.\nOne such example is that by seeking options for too long, you begin to lack depth.\nThere comes a time when having more options is not better, instead, having depth is what is important.\nGrow your skills and develop options, but be wary of creating too many options without enough depth.\nTransfer of knowledge # When GG looks at hiring new people, he doesn\u0026rsquo;t just look for how intelligent they are.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also about how they can transfer knowledge from one field into another.\nWhen interviewing candidates, understanding how a candidate can transfer information is an important part of Lyka\u0026rsquo;s process.\nFailure and Risk # This part of the episode really stuck with me.\nI think failure is very important. If you cannot deal with failure, you\u0026rsquo;re never going to risk high enough. If you\u0026rsquo;re never fail means that you\u0026rsquo;re probably not stretching yourself enough. So failure is very important.\nWhen was the last time you failed at something?\nFailure is a sign that you are pushing your limits. It\u0026rsquo;s a sign of growth.\nIf you aren\u0026rsquo;t failing, you aren\u0026rsquo;t learning and growing.\nReframing the way we look at failure is key to maximising your performance.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Gabriel Guedes 00:46 GG at University 04:10 Working in High-Performance Environments 05:39 Highlights and Lowlights of Consulting 09:00 Biggest Learnings From Consulting 12:55 Is consulting a good path to operations? 26:15 The Vision for Lyka 30:19 How would he restart Lyka 31:40 Advice for people starting companies 33:48 Biggest Learning From Startups 37:02 GG Extracurriculars 41:20 Failure that ended up being a success 44:13 Who inspires GG? 45:39 If GG could go back in time\n","date":"1 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/41-gabriel-guedes/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Working in high-performance cultures like MBB is a tough gig. Today’s guest did it for 10 years, and he’s now on a mission to transform the pet care industry.\n","title":"Gabriel Guedes | On Tales Of Spontaneity And The Perils Of Optionality","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 41\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nGabriel: I think failure is very important. If you cannot deal with failure, you\u0026rsquo;re never going to take big enough risks. If you never fail, it means you\u0026rsquo;re probably not stretching yourself enough. So failure is very important.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest co-founded Lyka Pet Food and currently leads its operations. Previously, he was an associate partner at Bain, where he worked for over 10 years. Currently, he\u0026rsquo;s also an angel investor and advisor at various startups across Australia. He\u0026rsquo;s affectionately known as Gigi.\nPlease welcome to the show Gabriel Guedes.\nGabriel: Thanks, James. Thanks for having me here.\nGG at University # James: Amazing, mate. It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have you on the show. I\u0026rsquo;m keen to dive into your experience across such a wide variety of domains, but I want to wind back the clock to start. When you finished university and began your career, you went straight into Bain. What was that transition from university to work like, and what opportunities did you initially have in mind at the time?\nGabriel: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting question. Before joining consulting, I tried working in industry. By trade, I\u0026rsquo;m a production engineer, so I think my career was supposed to be more industry-driven. I did some internships in the area. For instance, I interned in the logistics department at Procter \u0026amp; Gamble in South America. I also did some other, smaller internships while completing my master\u0026rsquo;s degree. But the more internships I did in engineering or corporate environments, the less I wanted to be an engineer. That\u0026rsquo;s what led me to explore consulting, where I thought there was a good blend of the analytical work I would do as an engineer and the opportunity to explore strategy and business.\nIn the end, I did a junior internship in consulting too, which was much better than my time in the other areas. For me, it was a no-brainer to continue exploring from there.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s pretty interesting. As you started at Bain and got into things, what particularly drew you to consulting? You mentioned that you generally enjoyed it more, but were there any particular aspects of that world that really excited you?\nGabriel: There were a few things. The first was optionality. I had realised that I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to be an engineer, and I had a little bit of a crisis: what did I want to do? Consulting seemed like a good place to park myself for at least a couple of years, where I could work without guilt and keep plenty of doors open.\nBut once I started doing the job, I really enjoyed a few elements of it. For instance, I liked working in a high-performance environment with a lot of smart people tackling hard problems. I think it\u0026rsquo;s underrated how much the people you work with influence you and how much you can learn. The learning was fantastic across many different dimensions, from hard skills such as modelling and communication to problem-solving and working with others. Working with others is something you might take for granted, but it\u0026rsquo;s a skill in itself.\nWorking in High Performance Environments # James: What was that environment like? You mentioned the number of high performers. When you first started, was it a bit of a shock? Did you have to raise your level? How did you find it?\nGabriel: It was a bit daunting in the beginning, to be fair. I started as an intern. I had done some internships before, but I had never worked full-time, and an internship in consulting can sometimes involve more hours than a full-time job somewhere else. That was also a shock in the beginning.\nBut the environment was quite structured in progressively teaching you and helping you ramp up. There was a lot of support, both formally, through training and inductions, and informally, through an apprenticeship model in which you learned from the people you worked with. They created an environment where it was easy to ask questions, work with people and learn from them.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s pretty cool. I think a lot of people, myself included, form ideas about what these places are like. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to speak to people who work there or have worked there.\nHighlights and Lowlights of Consulting # James: Looking back on your experience there—you were there for quite a long time—what was the highlight? And perhaps even a lowlight, or something you didn\u0026rsquo;t like about working in consulting?\nGabriel: I stayed there for 11 years, so obviously there was a lot that I liked; otherwise, nobody lasts that long. For me, the highlights definitely outweighed the lowlights. I really enjoyed working on high-stakes problems. Companies hire consultants for a reason, and consulting is obviously a very expensive service. By definition, you end up working on the problems that are most important to those companies. Even from an early stage in your career, being able to work on strategic themes at the top of the agenda for the company, the CEO and the board is very motivating. It also accelerates your learning because you\u0026rsquo;re exposed to such big problems early in your career.\nThe other part I enjoyed was the people. As I mentioned, there were a lot of high-calibre people. Bain, in particular, placed a big emphasis on being both high-calibre and low-ego, so everybody felt friendly and welcoming. Most of my best friends are either from Bain or ex-Bain. Over the past 10 years, I built those relationships, and I met my partner through Bain as well. Having like-minded people in that environment was very conducive to having fun, meeting lifelong friends and thoroughly enjoying the job.\nThe last thing I enjoyed was the type of work. The day-to-day work was something I really liked, and that remained consistent across my different tenures. Over the 10 years I spent there, I started as an intern and left as an associate partner. The work changed a lot throughout that period, but the day-to-day experience across those 10 years was very enjoyable. That\u0026rsquo;s why I stayed.\nIn terms of lowlights, there are the classic things: very long hours, lots of travel and less control over your personal life. You might suddenly be staffed on a different case, which turns your routine upside down, and you might work very long hours, depending on the project. That\u0026rsquo;s a reality. That said, it wasn\u0026rsquo;t something that made me regret anything. We learned a lot during those intense periods as well.\nBiggest Learnings From Consulting # James: Those kinds of things build a lot of resilience as well. Continuing that thread, what are some of the biggest lessons you took from that period and still apply to your work today?\nGabriel: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting because, if I had planned my career to reach where I am now, I don\u0026rsquo;t think I would have seen consulting as the natural path. But having followed it, I feel it was the perfect path to prepare me for what I do today. That happened somewhat by coincidence. I was never too deliberate or precise about my trajectory, but it worked out well.\nThere were soft skills such as communication and dealing with all types of stakeholders. As a consultant, I think it\u0026rsquo;s the same as being a COO: you might need to deal with the CEO, the board and investors in high-stakes conversations, or perhaps negotiate with key suppliers, all the way through to working with operations staff on the shop floor. As a consultant, you work across that whole range, and my day job nowadays is the same in the end. Learning how to operate in such different environments, which require different skills, is quite important.\nAnother element is managing a team. As a consultant—or at least once you become more senior—you end up having to manage a high-performance team. Managing a high-performance team is easier in one sense because the high performers get the job done themselves. On the other hand, it also poses challenges around motivating that specific cohort and providing career opportunities, learning and development.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s very valuable in a startup because people who join startups are often highly motivated, keen and ambitious. They have strong similarities with people who go into consulting, and some are ex-consultants as well. Bringing that type of leadership to Lyka has been invaluable, as has recreating some of that high-performance environment within our company.\nI also still use the technical expertise I obtained. My career at Bain was a bit atypical compared with that of a regular consultant: I was much less of a generalist. I specialised in operations quite early in my career, and I\u0026rsquo;m still working in operations now. Many things I learned in those days—manufacturing, supply chain, logistics, procurement and contract negotiations—are still quite useful.\nEven the less appreciated topics, such as organisational structures, administration and understanding how the backbone of a company works, are relevant. Organisational restructuring is the type of project consultants don\u0026rsquo;t really like doing, but those projects become very important when you leave consulting and go to work at, say, a startup where you\u0026rsquo;re building a structure, or at a corporation. They help you understand how a company works. Those lessons are still very relevant today.\nIs consulting a good path to operations? # James: You mentioned that, looking back from where you are now, you might follow a similar path again. Would that be your advice to someone who wants to work broadly across operations, perhaps in the startup landscape? Is consulting, whether at Bain or another consultancy, one of the best ways to get where you are?\nGabriel: It\u0026rsquo;s hard to say because, as I mentioned, I was never very mindful about planning my career. I kept doing consulting because I enjoyed it, and I kept working in operations because I really enjoyed that. I only moved to Lyka because it was founded by my partner and it felt like my startup to an extent; I helped her co-found it when we launched. Otherwise, I would never have left consulting.\nThere was no careful planning, which makes it hard for me to tell somebody just joining the workforce that they should plan carefully. Looking back, it looks great, but the decisions didn\u0026rsquo;t feel the same when I was making them.\nWhat I suggest is finding a mix of things that give you optionality, as consulting did for me. I parked my career there for 10 years until I found my life\u0026rsquo;s work, which is Lyka now. But those 10 years were very purposeful: I learned a lot, and they directly prepared me to do what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean everybody needs to spend 10 years doing something while waiting for their opportunity, but it was very helpful for me.\nSecondly, I think optionality is great, but it can be dangerous. If you retain too much optionality for too long, you might end up knowing a little bit about everything but nothing too deeply. To an extent, some degree of specialisation, or narrowing your path, is also important. For me, that was working in operations through Bain. I specialised very early; pretty much 98% of my career has involved operations themes. Whenever I did something that wasn\u0026rsquo;t directly related, I would quickly try to jump back to something that interested me more.\nIn the end, that made it a natural move for me to join Lyka as the company\u0026rsquo;s COO and CFO because of the experience I had accumulated. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean I couldn\u0026rsquo;t have joined Lyka if I\u0026rsquo;d had a different experience, but the expertise I built over that time makes my life much easier now.\nStriking the right balance is hard, but that\u0026rsquo;s the trick: find things that enable you to jump between one interest and another without those jumps being too far apart in terms of capability. That way, you develop a form of specialisation that gives you a competitive advantage.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good tip. You mentioned the start of Lyka, your move from Bain and then beginning to work there. When did you first hear about Lyka as a possibility? I\u0026rsquo;d love you to dive into that story.\nGabriel: The story of Lyka starts with our dog, who is also called Lyka. When she was about five or six years old, she began having some health issues. Anna, my partner and the founder of Lyka, researched why such a young dog was having these problems. Her teeth weren\u0026rsquo;t in great condition, and the vet wanted to remove some of them. Anna\u0026rsquo;s research led her to realise that the food was the problem. That was eye-opening for us, so we started cooking for Lyka at home.\nShe improved over time. Within a few weeks, she was already much better, and her teeth were looking better too, even though they were damaged. More than that, people at the dog park would say, “She\u0026rsquo;s looking so much better. What happened to her?” We would tell them about it.\nWe continued this for a couple of years until Anna decided the idea had enough momentum behind it to become a startup. She thought she should take it more seriously and cook not just for Lyka, but for every dog. She started researching and realised that the market was big and presented a great opportunity. She decided to quit consulting to start Lyka. At the time, I took a three- or four-month career break to help her.\nTogether, we launched Lyka in early 2018 with a very simple minimum viable product. I then returned to Bain as a consultant while Anna ran the business on her own. It was still a small startup, so it made more sense for me to work as a consultant, support her on weekends as needed and help finance the business while she took the leap of faith to quit and run it full-time.\nWe did that for a couple of years, until we raised our pre-seed round and then our seed round. By then, the business and the amount of money we\u0026rsquo;d raised were big enough that my continuing to work at Bain wouldn\u0026rsquo;t make a difference to the company\u0026rsquo;s funding. The most value I could add was to work on it full-time. We decided it was better for me to jump into Lyka too—all hands on deck. That was about two years ago, and I haven\u0026rsquo;t looked back.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s going very well at Lyka, so congratulations to you and your partner. You\u0026rsquo;ve done something really cool, and it\u0026rsquo;s turning into a fantastic opportunity. You spoke about Bain\u0026rsquo;s high-performance culture and trying to recreate it in a startup. Lyka has a decent-sized team now. When you\u0026rsquo;re building that team, what traits identify someone who will fit the culture, solve problems independently and perform highly?\nGabriel: In a startup, that\u0026rsquo;s a bit harder to define than it is in consulting. A startup has many different roles, and every role requires different skills, whereas the average consultant is much more uniform.\nFor instance, at Lyka we have all the capabilities a classic startup or SaaS business would have: engineering, customer care, marketing and product. We also have everything an e-commerce business has, including fulfilment and logistics, as well as everything a manufacturing business has, because we manufacture our food. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to use a single metric to measure everybody as uniformly as you would in consulting.\nWe do a few things to nudge the company towards that high-performance world. First, we evaluate everybody on their subject-matter expertise. To work in certain areas, you need to know the field. If you want to be a coder—a developer—you need to know how to code, and we\u0026rsquo;ll test that.\nBeyond that, we believe people should not only be subject-matter experts but generally smart. Rather than being deep in just one area, their intelligence should enable them to learn across different subject areas. That\u0026rsquo;s very important in our complex environment, where the business is so vertically integrated. People need to understand the context not only of their own work but also of other areas and work well across them.\nThe third point is how the person fits our culture, including their ability to collaborate and their belief in our mission. We want someone who is genuinely mission-driven and can work well with others. Because we\u0026rsquo;re all there for the same mission, everybody understands what we\u0026rsquo;re trying to achieve and collaborates well. That\u0026rsquo;s probably the hardest part to measure because it\u0026rsquo;s much less tangible, and it\u0026rsquo;s difficult to get to know someone when all you have is a few hours of interviews. We have several stages in our interview process that try to test those qualities as well.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. It\u0026rsquo;s a tricky nut to crack: getting to know as much as you can about someone in a short time and trying to determine whether they\u0026rsquo;re suitable.\nGabriel: Part of what we do is also let candidates get to know Lyka as much as possible through the process. We\u0026rsquo;re interviewing each other, and either side can identify if it isn\u0026rsquo;t a good fit. We\u0026rsquo;re very open about our vision, our mission and the type of company we are. Somebody might be a high performer but not completely align with our mission, ethics or way of working. If they discover during the interview process that it isn\u0026rsquo;t a great match, that\u0026rsquo;s also a good outcome. It\u0026rsquo;s better for both sides to discover that then than six months later, after a conflict or another issue arises within the company.\nJames: I totally agree. When you\u0026rsquo;re interviewing, you should view the process as more than trying to get into the company. The company is interviewing you as much as you\u0026rsquo;re interviewing it.\nGabriel: Correct. Our interview process ends up being high-touch and lengthy, with multiple rounds of long discussions, but I think it\u0026rsquo;s worth the investment for both sides. If you\u0026rsquo;re interviewing at any company, it\u0026rsquo;s important to take the time to ask all your questions and really understand what the company is trying to achieve, what the role is and what the culture is like.\nWe might conduct 10 interviews that don\u0026rsquo;t work out, but when one does and somebody joins Lyka, we\u0026rsquo;re much more confident that person will be successful. To an extent, it saves us time: the upfront investment saves time later in onboarding and reduces the rate at which people in roles need to be replaced.\nThe Vision for Lyka # James: You also mentioned your vision for the company. What are you and the team setting out to achieve over the next few years?\nGabriel: Lyka is a pet-wellness business. That\u0026rsquo;s how we envision the company nowadays. We started as a dog-food business, and food is a great starting point because it\u0026rsquo;s the purchase pet owners think about most. First, it\u0026rsquo;s the most expensive. Second, if a dog doesn\u0026rsquo;t like the food, it won\u0026rsquo;t eat it, and if the food doesn\u0026rsquo;t agree with its belly, it can get very messy.\nThrough healthy pet food, we build trust around food and nutrition. The category is still emerging, so there aren\u0026rsquo;t many businesses in it, and we\u0026rsquo;re the main voice on nutrition in the space. Even the typical vet is a generalist. After graduating as a vet, becoming a nutritionist requires another couple of years of postgraduate study. Most vets end up going into surgery or working with large animals because that\u0026rsquo;s probably where most of the money is in the industry. There\u0026rsquo;s a gap in nutrition, and we can fill it.\nThrough our knowledge, we can earn the right to talk to customers about other aspects of nutrition and, eventually, wellness. We\u0026rsquo;re now launching our supplement line, which complements our food and is our first step into therapeutics beyond food. From there, we\u0026rsquo;ll develop a vet-specific line: products for pets with specific diseases or conditions, such as heart disease or liver disease. That will enable us to move further into wellness.\nWellness is a big area, so the sky is the limit to an extent. We could move into wearables, for instance, which would allow us to track sleeping patterns, movement, gait and itchiness and take action on that information. If a dog is itching too much, we could identify that and help the owner with advice from our team and with our products, such as a supplement that reduces itchiness.\nWith all the information in one place, the customer could see real-time feedback. They might say, “My dog used to itch, and now that it\u0026rsquo;s taking the supplement, not only can I see that it isn\u0026rsquo;t itching, but I can tangibly monitor that in the app.” From there, we could continue moving upstream in the wellness space, perhaps one day establishing preventive-care wellness clinics. That\u0026rsquo;s not a few years away, though; it\u0026rsquo;s more likely many years away.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s pretty exciting.\nGabriel: We would also expand from dogs to cats down the road and eventually go abroad, potentially to nearby markets such as Southeast Asia or Asia in general.\nJames: There\u0026rsquo;s huge potential and a lot of different things to explore.\nHow would he restart Lyka # James: If you could restart Lyka, is there anything you would do differently? Or is there an area you\u0026rsquo;re currently focusing on improving based on your startup journey so far? I guess it\u0026rsquo;s a slightly tough question.\nGabriel: There are obviously lots of small things here and there that make you think, “I wish I\u0026rsquo;d known this before; it would have been a bit smoother.” But I don\u0026rsquo;t think we have any big regrets or anything where we\u0026rsquo;d say, “This was completely wrong. We didn\u0026rsquo;t do it well.”\nWith four years of hindsight, you learn so much that you think you could do it much more smoothly and quickly if you started again. But I think we handled the strategic steps and main decisions well. There are probably some small things we could improve and fix, but that\u0026rsquo;s always easy to see in hindsight.\nAdvice for people starting companies # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s say someone wants to start a company and asks you for advice. What key things have you focused on that have gone particularly well in building Lyka and that you think are very important for other founders?\nGabriel: In the beginning, the most important thing is to listen to your customers and really understand them so that you find product-market fit as soon as possible. Founders tend to want to scale fast, but without the right product-market fit, scaling only magnifies the problem. I strongly encourage early-stage founders to talk to customers, understand what they\u0026rsquo;re doing and, ideally, be a customer themselves.\nFor Lyka, it was very serendipitous. Anna came across the idea because we were already cooking for Lyka, so we understood the space and the customer; she was the customer. That helped us stay ahead and think the way the customer thinks because we literally had the same mindset. It can translate into better features and better ways to delight your customers by anticipating all their expectations and delivering in a way that feels natural.\nUnderstanding that from the beginning is important. Once you\u0026rsquo;re confident it\u0026rsquo;s working, you can begin scaling the business. Otherwise, a lot of resources are wasted. The more you invest in the wrong path, the harder it is to turn around later.\nBiggest Learning From Startups # James: What has been your biggest personal lesson from working at this startup?\nGabriel: There are so many, and there are many dimensions to learning. When I\u0026rsquo;m tackling different problems here, there\u0026rsquo;s no problem where I would say, “I have no idea how to solve this.” I might not know the answer, but I have a process: I think I know the steps to get there and solve the problem. That\u0026rsquo;s something I bring from being a consultant. But there are many different lessons within those steps, so it\u0026rsquo;s hard to choose only a few.\nIf I compare working at a startup with working at a big corporation, as I did through Bain, I see striking differences in several respects. At a startup, you\u0026rsquo;re the last gatekeeper: if you don\u0026rsquo;t do something, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t get done. In a big company, invisible hands keep the machine going. You\u0026rsquo;re trying to change things—the strategy or some aspect of performance improvement—but the day-to-day work continues.\nAt a startup, you need to balance your time carefully between thinking about the big picture and doing the day-to-day work that won\u0026rsquo;t get done if you don\u0026rsquo;t do it. As we grow and become a scale-up, that mindset needs to change again. We need to become a big company by putting processes in place and hiring more people, creating a structure that enables the company to run without being too dependent on certain individuals.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s been an interesting lesson for me: every stage of the company requires a different approach. Just as you think you\u0026rsquo;re learning and becoming comfortable, you need to switch again for the company\u0026rsquo;s next stage, and the next wave of lessons arrives.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. My next question was going to be about the differences between where you are now and Bain, but I think you\u0026rsquo;ve answered that. You also do a lot of things outside Lyka.\nGG Extracurriculars # James: You\u0026rsquo;re an advisor and, as I briefly mentioned in the introduction, you\u0026rsquo;re involved with organisations such as AfterWork. You\u0026rsquo;re also an investor. How did you start getting involved in these activities outside work?\nGabriel: To be completely honest, my view of the startup world was quite limited before we started Lyka—before 2017, when we were thinking about it, and 2018, when we got our teeth into it. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t very involved. But when you start working on a startup, the whole ecosystem opens up. You see everything that\u0026rsquo;s out there, talk to founders, encounter other ideas and end up in conversations that can lead to investments, because some of those founders are fundraising. That\u0026rsquo;s when informal conversations started leading to opportunities for me.\nI also think the Australian ecosystem was much less sophisticated in 2017 and 2018. There were fewer funds, and the funds were smaller than they are today, so the reliance on angel investors was greater. These opportunities arose more often than they do today. Now, if you simply say, “I\u0026rsquo;m an angel,” not many people will necessarily send you a pitch deck. That was different four or five years ago, when the ecosystem was still developing.\nI progressively became more involved, either by making small investments or advising startups I crossed paths with. Then I started getting involved in funds. For instance, I\u0026rsquo;m a fellow at AfterWork, a community-based fund where we share a lot of experiences. There\u0026rsquo;s also a lot to learn from how they approach things. Now I\u0026rsquo;m a venture partner at Metagrove Ventures, another fund where my role is even more meaningful. Becoming a venture capitalist happened step by step over a journey of four or five years.\nJames: You mentioned the amount of interaction between founders and people at a similar stage. Have the opportunities you\u0026rsquo;re involved with outside work provided real benefits to you in building Lyka?\nGabriel: Definitely. Each startup will have different problems, but the main themes are quite transferable. Many problems are issues or mistakes other founders have encountered. Their experience is highly applicable, although it obviously needs to be customised. As I say, it\u0026rsquo;s great to learn from your mistakes, but it\u0026rsquo;s better if you can learn from others.\nHaving access to this community and network is quite important. Whatever issue you face, you can ask someone, and somebody will have a view on it or will have tackled it before. You can then begin solving your problem from a broader base. As I said, there\u0026rsquo;s no problem where I think, “I have no idea how to find a solution.” That\u0026rsquo;s partly because I have access to people who can help if a new problem arises.\nFailure that ended up being a success # James: Another question I have is about failure. Sometimes something seems like a failure at the time but works out well in the future. Have there been moments in your life when something didn\u0026rsquo;t work out the way you wanted, but later proved beneficial?\nGabriel: I completely agree. To start, I think failure is very important. If you cannot deal with failure, you\u0026rsquo;re never going to take big enough risks. If you never fail, it means you\u0026rsquo;re probably not stretching yourself enough. So failure is very important.\nThere are plenty of situations like that in my life. Think about the story we discussed at the beginning: I wanted to be an engineer and then realised it wasn\u0026rsquo;t for me—the job sucked for me. I was three years into a five-year engineering course and thinking, “I really don\u0026rsquo;t want to be an engineer anymore. What do I do?” I later became a consultant, but at the time that felt like a failure. Why was I doing this complicated, long degree if I wasn\u0026rsquo;t actually going to use it?\nI do think that if I hadn\u0026rsquo;t done it, I definitely wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be where I am today—even physically, because I only made my way to Australia through my work at Bain.\nJames: University can be influential in helping you discover who you are. Most of the time, things do work out for the best, so I\u0026rsquo;m glad it has worked out that way for you.\nGabriel: You\u0026rsquo;re never going to know. Perhaps if I\u0026rsquo;d stayed in South America, another path would have brought me here or made me more successful. But that\u0026rsquo;s just guesswork, so I think it\u0026rsquo;s better to believe it happened for the best.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s important to see the best in situations. I\u0026rsquo;ve got one, maybe two, more questions before we wrap up. You\u0026rsquo;re a high performer, you\u0026rsquo;re achieving and you\u0026rsquo;re involved in many different things.\nWho inspires GG? # James: Who inspires you? Is there anyone you admire and would love to emulate, or whose advice you really take to heart?\nGabriel: There are several people. I\u0026rsquo;m against the cult of personality, where someone becomes a fan of a person and supports them in everything, particularly when the person is a public figure. Elon Musk, for instance, has this cult of personality: even when he\u0026rsquo;s doing the most horrible things, people still support him. I\u0026rsquo;m definitely not that type of person.\nBut many people have characteristics I really admire or have helped me over the years. Obviously, they\u0026rsquo;re all human and flawed in the same way I am. Some aspects of them might not be great, while others are fantastic. I cultivate several relationships in which I admire particular people for certain skills, types of advice or things they\u0026rsquo;ve done. They inspire me in those areas.\nIf GG could go back in time # James: That\u0026rsquo;s a good perspective. The halo effect can make you think somebody\u0026rsquo;s qualities are much better than they actually are. My last question is one I ask every guest. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about your time at university, but if you could go back to Gigi in his final year, when he was about to go out into the world, what advice would you give him now that you\u0026rsquo;ve had all these experiences?\nGabriel: It\u0026rsquo;s hard to say. If that were a serious proposition—if I could go back in time and tell young Gigi something—I would probably pass on the opportunity. You run the risk of saying something that gets misinterpreted over the 10 or 15 years since I was at university.\nPerhaps you end up chasing that thing because you think, “My future self came back just to tell me this one thing, so it must be extremely important.” You might really misinterpret whatever the advice is. I could say, “Everything\u0026rsquo;s going to be all right. Don\u0026rsquo;t worry,” and perhaps young Gigi would take that too literally, do nothing with his life and change its course. Or I could say, “Work harder,” and send him off on the wrong tangent. I would probably pass on the opportunity.\nJames: Fair enough. I guess that reflects how well things are going for you now and how much you\u0026rsquo;re enjoying where your life is. You wouldn\u0026rsquo;t want to mess that up accidentally. What advice would you give people generally—perhaps Australian university students nearing graduation and trying to work out what they want to do with their lives?\nGabriel: I would say that your life isn\u0026rsquo;t going to be decided then. At that stage, many people think, “I\u0026rsquo;m making these big life decisions now.” But in the grand scheme of things, whatever you\u0026rsquo;re doing is probably a commitment of a couple of years, if that. There\u0026rsquo;s so much more to your life and career. Don\u0026rsquo;t overthink these decisions too much, and remember that you can always correct course later if you aren\u0026rsquo;t enjoying what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. Thanks so much for sharing it and for coming on the show today, Gigi. If listeners want to learn more about you and the work you\u0026rsquo;re doing now, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place to go?\nGabriel: To learn about Lyka, go to Lyka\u0026rsquo;s website, lyka.com.au—L-Y-K-A. That\u0026rsquo;s my life\u0026rsquo;s work, so it\u0026rsquo;s probably the best place to see what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. If you want to connect with me, LinkedIn is probably the best way. If you search for Gabriel Guedes on LinkedIn, I think I\u0026rsquo;m probably the only one there. My DMs are always open, so please reach out if I can be of any help.\nThank you, James. It was a pleasure talking to you. It was a very good and fun conversation.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learned from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening today. We look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 41\n","date":"1 August 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/41-gabriel-guedes/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 41\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Gabriel Guedes | On Tales Of Spontaneity And The Perils Of Optionality","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is a great example of what you can achieve by putting yourself and your creations out into the world.\nIn this episode, we chat all about building a network and getting into startups through the third door.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, do it now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nElaha Gurgani is employee #19 at seed-stage tech startup, Relevance AI. She’s previously connected with and hosted events with thought leaders Sahil Lavingia and Sahil Bloom.\nSince moving to Sydney earlier this year, she has started a micro-grant fund for side projects and connected with people across the tech industry.\nShe recently started her own newsletter, aiming to curate lessons from thought leaders and tech.\n🤝 Connect with Elaha # Newsletter - https://heyelaha.beehiiv.com/\nTwitter - https://twitter.com/heyelaha/\n✋ Things Discussed # Earlywork Community (Tell them Graduate Theory sent you!)\nThe Third Door - Alex Banayan\nNever Eat Alone - Keith Ferrazzi\nRelevance AI\n\u0026ldquo;What feels like play to you, but looks like work to others?\u0026rdquo;@naval — Navalism (@NavalismHQ) April 21, 2022\nReid Hoffman\nAriana Huffington\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Relationship building requires action # We all know that building great relationships is so important.\nElaha is fantastic at doing this. She has built an amazing network in Sydney since she moved there.\nDuring the episode, she shared plenty of advice on building relationships.\nrelationship building is really a long term game and one that requires a lot of action\nRecognise it\u0026rsquo;s a long-term game building a good network requires massive action Exploring Curiosity leads to opportunity # Curiosity is an interesting thing.\nIt can lead us to interesting places.\nElaha shared that many of her opportunities have come from her exploring her curiosity.\nthe biggest opportunities that have come my way all come because exploring my curiosity\nSo many of us are curious about things but don\u0026rsquo;t explore them.\nToday\u0026rsquo;s challenge is to explore something that you are curious about. Ask a friend or a stranger. Perhaps attend an event. Do something outside your comfort zone.\nExplore.\nThird Door Strategy # There is a fantastic book called The Third Door.\nHere is the synopsis.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s the First Door: the main entrance, where ninety-nine percent of people wait in line, hoping to get in. The Second Door: the VIP entrance, where the billionaires and celebrities slip through. But what no one tells you is that there is always, always\u0026hellip; the Third Door.\nUtilising the third door approach will set you apart and allow you access to great opportunities.\nElaha uses this analogy when discussing her opportunity to work at Relevance AI.\nShe made a point of making sure that she stood out from other candidates.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s (thinking) how can you stand out? But also, how can you provide value from day zero\nThinking outside the box is the secret to outsized results.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Elaha Gurgani\n00:54 Elaha\u0026rsquo;s Move Interstate\n10:14 Connecting with People that are more Senior\n12:27 Systems or Serendipity\n16:53 Networking Advice people should ignore\n21:08 Finding Jobs Through Networking\n25:51 Advice for people wanting to get into startups\n30:26 Setting Long-Term Goals\n34:20 Balancing Goal Setting and Fun\n42:12 Failure that ended up being a success\n45:02 Advice for Graduates\n46:54 Connect with Elaha\n","date":"25 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/40-elaha-gurgani/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today’s guest is a great example of what you can achieve by putting yourself and your creations out into the world.\n","title":"Elaha Gurgani | On Exploring Curiosity and Building Your Tribe","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 40\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nElaha: The things that you have always wanted—the people, the tribe, the passion, the things that you have always craved—will come to you through those unknown paths. That\u0026rsquo;s where the magic lies.\nJames: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is employee number 19 at the seed-stage tech startup Relevance AI. She has previously connected with and hosted events with thought leaders such as Sahil Lavingia and Sahil Bloom. Since moving to Sydney earlier this year, she has started a microgrant fund for side projects and made connections with many people right across the tech industry.\nShe has recently started her own newsletter, aiming to curate lessons from thought leaders and tech news. Please welcome to the show today, Elaha Gurgani.\nElaha: Thanks so much for that lovely intro. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me, James.\nElaha\u0026rsquo;s Move Interstate # James: It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have you on the show today, Elaha. I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive in and start talking about your experience with networking and building a network from a place where you have a clean slate. You moved from Melbourne to Sydney, if that\u0026rsquo;s right, and I\u0026rsquo;d love to hear about your experience and what led to your move.\nElaha: I\u0026rsquo;ll have to take you back to the pandemic in 2020, when I was in my last year at uni. I had this big realisation: \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, I don\u0026rsquo;t really have many close friends.\u0026rdquo; The world was hit by the pandemic, everyone was inside and we had a lot of time to reflect and think about our lives and major decisions. It was a very painful time because I realised that I only had one or two close friends from uni, and we saw each other every three to six months. My soul was craving connection and finding my own tribe of like-minded people.\nI took 2020, which was the peak of COVID, to reflect on what I wanted from the relationships and friendships in my life. Fast-forward to 2021, when Earlywork came in. That\u0026rsquo;s when the Earlywork community Slack debuted. It was a Slack community for early workers, people in tech or people who were passionate about what they wanted to do. I was one of Earlywork\u0026rsquo;s subscribers, and one day they announced that they were starting this Slack to meet other like-minded people in tech. I jumped on it and thought, \u0026ldquo;This sounds so exciting. I would love to meet my tribe.\u0026rdquo; It opened up a whole new world to me.\nThere was an introductions channel at the beginning, and I read everyone\u0026rsquo;s introductions, backgrounds and experiences. I thought, \u0026ldquo;There\u0026rsquo;s a whole other world of perspectives and experiences out there that I wasn\u0026rsquo;t aware of.\u0026rdquo; I was back in Melbourne and this was a very Sydney-focused Slack community, so I started to contribute as much as possible. I helped with the events side of things and gave the co-founders feedback about the community. I started to give, give, give. As you contribute to this kind of community, people start to know you, see you in all the channels and notice how helpful you are. That helped me build some friendships online.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a really good tip for anyone who wants to start building their network, connecting with people or finding friends: give freely and follow your curiosity. Where is it taking you? Is it taking you to a particular group or interest? Start contributing.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s where I met most of my friends, but the Startmate Fellowship also began while I was graduating from uni. Startmate had this student fellowship to get students into startups and give them exposure to startups and tech. That opened up a whole new world as well. You meet other people who are ambitious and passionate about building something. I took it as an opportunity to show initiative, such as by running a workshop. One of the biggest things I did during the Startmate Fellowship was build a book club.\nOne day, I wanted to read a book and thought it would be fun to share my knowledge with others. I posted in one of the channels, \u0026ldquo;Hey, guys, I want to start a book club. I\u0026rsquo;m reading this book. Who wants in?\u0026rdquo; Everyone became interested and was drawn to it. This was 2021, the pandemic was still happening, we were all at home under a lot of restrictions and I was back in Melbourne. I ran the book club online over Zoom. We had a weekly catch-up about books and other interests, where we shared our favourite articles and books and had a discussion.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s where I met, I would say, 80 per cent of my friends. With clubs, you have to see one another from time to time. It\u0026rsquo;s not a one-off event; you see one another more than once. That\u0026rsquo;s where I built most of my friendships online, and most of those friends were based in Sydney. I already had my Sydney network while I was living in Melbourne because I was contributing to and mingling with the Sydney tech community.\nBy that time, I had also got my operations role at Relevance AI, which was based in Sydney, so I made the move. I already had my little bubble of online connections when I arrived, but one day I thought, \u0026ldquo;There has to be more.\u0026rdquo; I was in a very adventurous mood and I was very curious. I knew the people in my tech bubble, my little group on Slack and the Startmate Fellowship, but I wondered who else was out there that I could be exposed to.\nOne day, I jumped on Twitter. I wanted to go for brunch and none of the friends I knew were available, so I wrote, \u0026ldquo;Hey, guys, I\u0026rsquo;m new to Sydney. I\u0026rsquo;m organising this brunch on Sunday at 11 a.m. Who wants to come?\u0026rdquo; That tweet blew up. It got more than 60 likes and retweets, and I had brunch with ten people from Twitter. Most of them had faceless profiles and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I want to come to your brunch.\u0026rdquo; I was feeling adventurous, so I said, \u0026ldquo;Yes. Just say yes.\u0026rdquo; I say yes to everything.\nWe ended up meeting for brunch, and to this day I\u0026rsquo;m still friends with all of them. I even work with one of them, Shilpa, who is a head of operations. We collaborate on newsletters and other things. Through being curious, saying yes and feeling adventurous, I met all these people. Right now, I\u0026rsquo;m holding monthly meet-ups called Meet New Friends in Tech, where I connect people I already know with people who are new to the scene. That\u0026rsquo;s how I\u0026rsquo;m continuing to build connections and relationships as I go. That\u0026rsquo;s my story.\nJames: A key part of all this is showing the initiative to do these things. People talk about building your luck surface area. There may be some element of luck in the tweet blowing up, for example, but you have to put yourself in the ring and suggest these things for that kind of serendipity to occur. There\u0026rsquo;s definitely a thread through all these different things you\u0026rsquo;ve done: you put yourself out there, say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d really love it if this existed,\u0026rdquo; and then think, \u0026ldquo;Okay, why don\u0026rsquo;t I just do it?\u0026rdquo; The book club is one example.\nElaha: I think what people undervalue in relationship-building is initiative. It takes getting out of your comfort zone, reaching out to other people and being proactive. Relationship-building is a long-term game and it takes investment, which requires a lot of action. If you want to meet others, follow your curiosity, take initiative and go ahead with it.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;re almost creating what Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi calls a container event. He\u0026rsquo;s quite good at this sort of thing, and you\u0026rsquo;ve come to the same conclusion, perhaps without knowing it. The brunch would be an example: you say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to brunch,\u0026rdquo; and whoever wants to can come along. There\u0026rsquo;s no expectation that you have to go, but if you don\u0026rsquo;t and then see other people having fun, you think, \u0026ldquo;I should have gone to the brunch.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s a container where anyone can come along and it\u0026rsquo;s easy to get involved.\nElaha: That\u0026rsquo;s probably what I\u0026rsquo;m also doing with my meet-ups: \u0026ldquo;Guys, come along. Want to come? That\u0026rsquo;d be great.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: Exactly. It\u0026rsquo;s so open. It\u0026rsquo;s good for you because you\u0026rsquo;re bringing all these people together, but it\u0026rsquo;s also good for other people. They can meet everyone there, perhaps reconnect with people they already know and connect with people they haven\u0026rsquo;t met.\nElaha: It\u0026rsquo;s also very smart. If you\u0026rsquo;re the organiser, people are drawn to you and come to get to know you, instead of you having to reach out and DM everyone. It\u0026rsquo;s a good hack: just be the organiser. That\u0026rsquo;s how you get to know people and people get to know you.\nConnecting with People that are more Senior # James: I agree. This is a great way to meet friends and people in a similar field, age group or experience level to yourself. How do you approach connecting and networking with people who are a few steps ahead of you—people who are more senior?\nElaha: That\u0026rsquo;s a great question and something I\u0026rsquo;m moving towards at the moment. I\u0026rsquo;m always open to learning, especially from people who are a few years ahead of me and have already done the things I want to do. The best advice I\u0026rsquo;ve received for navigating that senior–junior dynamic is to view them as human.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re human, just like you, so treat them like a friend. Many of them are keen to help you, be friends with you and connect with you as well. Rather than putting them on a pedestal and thinking, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, they\u0026rsquo;re this person. How do I reach out?\u0026rdquo;, ask yourself, \u0026ldquo;How would I reach out to a friend whom I really respect and honour?\u0026rdquo;\nOne way I navigate that is by taking the initiative and reaching out. After a coffee catch-up, I\u0026rsquo;ll send them an article that I think they would be interested in. In these dynamics, the people who are way ahead of you are busy, so it\u0026rsquo;s okay to leave two to six months between catch-ups. Unlike the peers we see day to day, it\u0026rsquo;s okay to have that space, while still having touchpoints: sending them articles they\u0026rsquo;re interested in or messages when something reminds you of them, commenting on their posts and supporting them. Those things add up when building relationships with senior people.\nSystems or Serendipity # James: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen people online use an actual system: you enter someone\u0026rsquo;s name, note that you haven\u0026rsquo;t reached out in two weeks and mark them as a high-priority person in your network, so you receive a reminder to contact them. Do you think about it in that systematic way, or is it more like what you described: \u0026ldquo;This reminded me of this person, so I\u0026rsquo;ll send them the link\u0026rdquo;?\nElaha: People often use a CRM system to keep in touch. I like that and I\u0026rsquo;ve tried it, but it\u0026rsquo;s hard to keep up. I\u0026rsquo;m a very lean, start-up-minded person, so I ask, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s the leanest way for me to keep in touch with people?\u0026rdquo;\nThe best connectors or relationship-builders I know come from a very authentic place. If I truly connect with someone, it just vibes. There is no forcing and there are no reminders. If it happens, it happens as you go. It\u0026rsquo;s about authenticity and the vibes you feel. If you truly feel connected, you will naturally be drawn to reach out to that person again and again. There\u0026rsquo;s nothing wrong with CRMs, though. I would love to learn how to keep one up and invest in relationships.\nJames: I think a CRM could take away the authenticity to some degree if you\u0026rsquo;re thinking, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s the 90-day mark. I\u0026rsquo;d better send this person a message.\u0026rdquo; It can feel quite artificial.\nElaha: From a positive point of view, it could also be a form of investment: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m a busy person and I don\u0026rsquo;t want to forget about this person, so let me set a reminder to catch up or make contact.\u0026rdquo; One thing it definitely helps with is creating those touchpoints where you see the person every two or three months, which builds the connection and helps that relationship. It is a form of investment if you look at it that way.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. I\u0026rsquo;ll have to look into it. People have built their own CRMs in simple tools such as Notion.\nElaha: Let me know how you go if you do end up doing it.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ll have to look it up. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether you\u0026rsquo;ve heard of Derek Sivers, but I think he\u0026rsquo;s a Tim Ferriss type of person. I don\u0026rsquo;t know too much about him, but I know he has some kind of system like that. I think he categorises people as A, B or C and contacts them at different intervals: the Cs might be once a year, the Bs twice a year and the As once a quarter. It\u0026rsquo;s quite systematic.\nElaha: Ask me in a year or so. When my number of connections grows, I might have a different system from relying on my memory.\nJames: Then again, you have your container event. You can invite 200 people or whatever the number is. There isn\u0026rsquo;t a real size limit, except at extreme levels. You can have quite a big event, and you don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily have to meet everyone there for them still to get value from it.\nElaha: Even if you know five people and have close friendships with two of them, that\u0026rsquo;s worthwhile. Relationship-building isn\u0026rsquo;t about the number of people you know. It\u0026rsquo;s great if you authentically connect with them all, but even if you end up knowing two good people, stay in touch with them and see them, that\u0026rsquo;s a big win. It\u0026rsquo;s about quality and the long-term game, rather than quantity and knowing people\u0026rsquo;s names without knowing their stories.\nNetworking Advice people should ignore # James: I agree with that. Is there any common networking advice—anything you\u0026rsquo;ve heard about how to approach networking—that you disagree with or that someone looking to build their network shouldn\u0026rsquo;t follow?\nElaha: I would start by not calling it networking. Reframe it as connecting, making new friends or relationship-building. Many networking tips are great, but I think the best way to learn how to build those relationships is to go out, follow your curiosity about other people and chat with them. Things will unfold naturally and you\u0026rsquo;ll start building relationships. The tips and strategies in books should be a reference point rather than a holy guidebook for how you should behave, which can make you robotic: \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s wrong. That\u0026rsquo;s right.\u0026rdquo; Go out there. You will make mistakes, but you will also learn from them, grow and develop so much as a person. Networking advice should be a reference point rather than a guidebook. Reframe the word \u0026ldquo;networking\u0026rdquo; and follow your curiosity.\nJames: I agree. The word \u0026ldquo;networking\u0026rdquo; almost makes it sound transactional, as though you\u0026rsquo;re collecting people who are going to ask for favours, and that\u0026rsquo;s it. That may be true on some level, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t how you want to approach it.\nElaha: I asked Sahil Bloom about networking when we had him on a panel because he\u0026rsquo;s one of the best connectors and community-builders—a real people person. He said, \u0026ldquo;I hate the word networking.\u0026rdquo; He\u0026rsquo;s also a strong proponent of curiosity. He met his mentor, Apple CEO Tim Cook, by going to the gym at five in the morning, chatting with a person who ended up being Tim Cook and being curious about him. If you look at the patterns among the best connectors or relationship-builders, they\u0026rsquo;re authentic and very curious about other people. That opens doors and creates opportunities in their lives. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to see that pattern.\nJames: Curiosity is an interesting part of it and where a lot of this starts. When you\u0026rsquo;re at an event, you don\u0026rsquo;t really know whom you\u0026rsquo;re speaking to or who might be your friend in six months. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to know, so curiosity and going deep to understand more about a person or what they do can lead to opportunities.\nElaha: For sure. Looking back, my biggest opportunities and the things that have come my way all arose because I explored my curiosity: \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s out there? What can I help with? Who is this person? What\u0026rsquo;s their story?\u0026rdquo; Curiosity is one of the biggest things that lets luck hit you or creates that serendipity. It\u0026rsquo;s underrated, but it opens so many doors and opportunities.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so via the links in the show notes. The Graduate Theory newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.\nWithout further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get back into it.\nFinding Jobs Through Networking # James: Spot on. I\u0026rsquo;d love to talk about your experience with start-ups. This is probably not even a change of topic, but a different question. You joined Relevance AI quite early and, in some ways, networked your way into the role. When did you first hear about the opportunity, and what steps took you from there to receiving an offer?\nElaha: It\u0026rsquo;s related to curiosity. It goes back to when I graduated from uni, where I studied finance and management. I was exploring my curiosity and playing around with no-code tools. I was geeking out about no-code and decided to run a no-code workshop. I posted about it on LinkedIn, where I was very active and shared my interests. At that time, it was no-code. I said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, guys, I\u0026rsquo;m running this no-code workshop,\u0026rdquo; and made some really cool graphics to encourage people to join the event.\nI was also well known at the time for contributing a lot to the Earlywork community. Relevance AI co-founder Jacky Koh reached out to me. He said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;ve been following your work for a while. Let\u0026rsquo;s have a chat and see what might be available for you at Relevance.\u0026rdquo; I had a chat with Jacky, loved his mission and loved the team. I pitched him the role: \u0026ldquo;Hey, I think I\u0026rsquo;ll be perfect for your business operations role, and I would love to contribute and help you with that. What do you think?\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;Let\u0026rsquo;s do it. Let\u0026rsquo;s go.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen I reflect on how I got the job and broke into my first operations role, it came from following my curiosity and sharing it publicly with other people. People really do notice when you start contributing and being helpful. It comes back to you as opportunities and people reaching out to you. Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to put yourself out there, let that luck hit you and pitch yourself, as I did.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s super cool—a very serendipitous moment. Many people are interested in getting into start-ups, especially early in their careers, and Relevance AI is a cool start-up doing interesting work. How did you decide which role you\u0026rsquo;d be best suited to and match that with what you felt the company needed at the time? Was there a process?\nElaha: By that point, I had talked to many people about what they did, from management consulting to sales executives and everything else. I was trying to figure out what I would be good at, and one of the main things I saw myself doing was being a generalist. I asked myself, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s a good generalist role that would help me figure out what I want and use what I\u0026rsquo;m good at?\u0026rdquo;\nOne of my friends had broken into a business operations role. I had a coffee chat with her and figured out that it could be something I would be interested in, so I decided to try it. Business operations, or operations, is a very generalist role. It gives you the flexibility to work across functions and zoom in and out of each one. I could see myself contributing a lot, especially when starting out and trying to find my niche and discover what I\u0026rsquo;m good at.\nI\u0026rsquo;m an all-round generalist, but I also have a T-shaped strength in community-building. That helps me stand out in terms of what I can contribute. It\u0026rsquo;s about following your curiosity, trying different things, talking to as many people as possible, then picking something and starting from there. Operations is a good starting point because it gives you exposure to all those functions, just like management consulting. In management consulting, you\u0026rsquo;re not tied to a specific industry and become an expert in different industries from one day to the next. Operations is the start-up version of that.\nAdvice for people wanting to get into startups # James: Suppose someone is thinking, \u0026ldquo;I really want to do what Elaha has done and join an early-stage start-up,\u0026rdquo; perhaps one that is competitive or difficult to get into. If you had to do it again, what advice would you give someone in that situation?\nElaha: Looking back at what I could have done more of or done better, my first piece of advice for someone starting today would be to share your learnings and put yourself out there. If you want to get into operations or be a generalist, share articles or what you have learnt from them online. You don\u0026rsquo;t know who\u0026rsquo;s looking at your content or who will give you your next opportunity. That\u0026rsquo;s how you increase your luck surface area. Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to share what you learn, what you want to do and your career aspirations.\nThe second point isn\u0026rsquo;t talked about as much. I call it breaking into a role through a third door. You might see a start-up you really like. Let\u0026rsquo;s say it works in AI and machine learning and you\u0026rsquo;re a data scientist. You could use what you\u0026rsquo;re good at to help it by developing a data science idea or project, or helping it with something related to data science. You could build a solution in Notion to a problem the start-up is facing. Have a coffee chat, find out what its biggest challenge is and come up with a solution: \u0026ldquo;Hey, this is what I think would work best. Here you go. Here\u0026rsquo;s a solution.\u0026rdquo;\nIf an employer had to choose between someone with a résumé going through a standard application process and someone who had already offered solutions and been proactive, of course they would choose someone who was already thinking like an employee. I call that the third door strategy. How can you stand out and provide value from day zero?\nI once wanted to break into a particular high-growth start-up. I had a warm introduction to the founder and noticed a gap in their community-building. Before our coffee chat, I drafted a community-building strategy in Notion that they could leverage. When we spoke, I pitched it to the founder: \u0026ldquo;This is the gap I see in your community-building. This is where you could do better, and this is the most likely outcome if you adopt this strategy.\u0026rdquo; He was impressed and asked, \u0026ldquo;Do you want to start working with us?\u0026rdquo; I couldn\u0026rsquo;t take the opportunity, but the experience taught me to ask how I could add value from day zero if I wanted to enter a start-up. One caveat is that it may not always work, but it does guarantee that you\u0026rsquo;ll stand out from all the other applicants.\nJames: For those listening, The Third Door by Alex Banayan is the book you\u0026rsquo;re referencing. I totally agree. There is a normal way of doing things, but in many cases it\u0026rsquo;s the most competitive and difficult route. Often a workaround, such as somehow meeting the founder and showing your value by pitching something, really sets you apart.\nElaha: Exactly. Ninety per cent of people will apply with a résumé, which is okay, but you should be thinking, \u0026ldquo;How can I stand out?\u0026rdquo; Maybe you start a side project related to machine learning or AI, if that\u0026rsquo;s your interest and also the interest of the start-up you want to work with. That would win over a regular résumé. It shows someone who is proactive, takes initiative, builds things and has already started side projects in the area we\u0026rsquo;re interested in. Those little things you\u0026rsquo;ve done or accomplished will definitely set you apart.\nSetting Long Term Goals # James: One thing I\u0026rsquo;m thinking about a lot is having a clear vision for yourself: deciding what you want your career to look like and then working backwards. I think you\u0026rsquo;ve done this well. In many of these cases, you\u0026rsquo;ve thought, \u0026ldquo;I really want to work here, so this is what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do to make sure I end up here.\u0026rdquo; Having that vision lets you be proactive and start doing things: \u0026ldquo;I want my life to look like this. What am I going to do to get there?\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s different from wondering what will happen today and being reactive. Do you think much about that kind of planning, such as where you want your career to be in five or ten years?\nElaha: Even though I\u0026rsquo;m a proactive person and an initiative-taker, to be vulnerable, I\u0026rsquo;ve had a big challenge with setting long-term goals. I was always afraid: \u0026ldquo;What if I fail? What if I fail to achieve that goal?\u0026rdquo; It would break my heart. I\u0026rsquo;m reframing that challenge by surrounding myself with other ambitious people who aren\u0026rsquo;t afraid and are unapologetic about where they want to be in life.\nThat rubs off on you. It gives you unconscious permission to be ambitious and unapologetic about where you want to be. For example, let\u0026rsquo;s say I want to be a CEO in the next five years. Good on me. How can I take the first step to make that happen?\nTo be vulnerable, I felt that I had to stay small and couldn\u0026rsquo;t state my goals, because I might fail and be heartbroken. What I\u0026rsquo;m navigating now is saying, \u0026ldquo;Okay, this is where I want to be in the next five years. How can I own my ambition, own my goals and go after them?\u0026rdquo; As I said, being surrounded by other people on the same path has helped.\nYou asked me about mentorship, but I think its most underrated form is the peers around you: people who share qualities you have and embody qualities you want, or who have goals and roles that are two years ahead of you and the wisdom that you want to adopt and cultivate within yourself. That\u0026rsquo;s the most underrated form of mentorship, and it will help your goal-setting system in the long run.\nJames: I agree 100 per cent. If deep down you want to be the CEO of a company, but all your friends say, \u0026ldquo;I just want to stay at ground level,\u0026rdquo; and have no aspirations, it is difficult to be vocal about those goals. But if your friends are doing things like that, or pursuing goals that are even more ambitious than what you considered ambitious, it opens up your thinking. It gives you permission to say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to interview this person, get a job here or try to do this with my career.\u0026rdquo;\nElaha: It gives you unconscious permission to be great and the space to be ambitious. You also have good, kind people around you who support you through the goal-setting process.\nBalancing Goal Setting and Fun # James: How do you balance goal-setting—saying, \u0026ldquo;I want to be doing this by a certain time\u0026rdquo; and working hard to get there—with fun? Ambitious targets require a level of seriousness and drive. How do you balance having fun with really driving towards them?\nElaha: I see them as going hand in hand, not as separate things. One of my favourite quotes is from Naval: pick something that feels like play to you but looks like work to others. What I\u0026rsquo;m pursuing in my career right now is true to my nature, something I\u0026rsquo;m authentically curious about and want to be the best at.\nI picked community-building and operations because I have the most fun doing them. I have the most fun getting shit done and bringing people together. People on the outside say, \u0026ldquo;Elaha, you\u0026rsquo;re doing a lot,\u0026rdquo; but to me it feels like play. It feels fun, as though I could do it forever, and it gives me more energy to do more and more.\nTo harmonise the two, pick one or two things that feel like play to you. Even if you\u0026rsquo;re constrained in your full-time job and can\u0026rsquo;t do the things you love, pick a side project that feels like play and that you enjoy. Even if you don\u0026rsquo;t get paid or monetise it, you can say, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t care. This brings me joy and gives me energy.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;m focused on things that feel like play to me but look like work from the outside. That\u0026rsquo;s the trick to balancing both.\nJames: I love what you said about doing something without any expectation or immediate reward, particularly a financial reward. It can come with other rewards, such as joy, enjoyment and energy, which are equally valuable, if not more so.\nElaha: I believe that we all have unique talents and sets of skills that feel like play to us and in which we can be the best. I want to be the best at operations and community-building, and they feel like play to me. Going back to ambition and serious goal-planning, I\u0026rsquo;m serious about becoming the best operations person and being the best at the intersection of operations and community-building.\nIt also feels like play. If I work on it for a certain number of hours, it feels joyful and fun, so I could do it forever. That can be a competitive advantage in terms of where you want to go in life. Naval is the best person to reference here: your competitive advantage comes from being authentic to yourself and your skills. I believe everyone has a unique set of skills, or an intersection of one or two things, at which they can be the best.\nJames: I like that a lot. With all the things you do—your events, newsletter, Twitter, other things you\u0026rsquo;re creating and your work—is there anyone you look up to who inspires you?\nElaha: At the moment, two people I would love to emulate come to mind: Reid Hoffman, the co-founder of LinkedIn, and Arianna Huffington, the founder of The Huffington Post. I know they\u0026rsquo;re celebrities or famous figures, but we live in an information age where content from people 20 or 30 years ahead of us, who are doing amazing, legendary things in life, is readily available. There is so much content to learn from.\nI\u0026rsquo;m fascinated by how much importance Reid Hoffman places on relationship-building, even though he\u0026rsquo;s a tech king and venture capitalist. I listened to a podcast where he talked about how important his friendships are to him. Friendship is a very spiritual way of cultivating or connecting to yourself: we see qualities we want in our friends and grow through associating with other people, becoming the best version of ourselves.\nI look up to him in terms of relationship-building. He\u0026rsquo;s known as the ultimate connector, and I think he built really good partnerships when he was part of the PayPal Mafia. He\u0026rsquo;s a Silicon Valley figure who values the same things I do: relationship-building, authenticity and friendship. I\u0026rsquo;m geeking out on his work. I read Reid Hoffman\u0026rsquo;s content, listen to his podcast and absorb as much as I can so that I can cultivate in myself the qualities I see in him and naturally emulate them.\nThe other person is Arianna Huffington. I look up to her as a feminine leader. She founded the almost multimillion-dollar media company The Huffington Post and worked herself hard in hustle culture, but one day a health crisis gave her a wake-up call to look after herself. She started Thrive Global. She\u0026rsquo;s very successful, but she\u0026rsquo;s also a major advocate for wellness and taking care of yourself as you pursue your ambitions. I don\u0026rsquo;t see that in many leaders, so I\u0026rsquo;m fascinated by the way she approaches success.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re lucky to live in an age where people like that share their knowledge, the different ways they\u0026rsquo;ve built their success and how they went through that journey. Reid Hoffman and Arianna Huffington are the two people I look up to. If you mix them, you\u0026rsquo;ll hopefully get me.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting how you have taken in so much of what Reid Hoffman has to say, chosen him as someone you want to be like and tried to absorb a lot of that.\nElaha: I wish he could mentor me, but the best form of mentorship available to me is the books and content he puts out, so I\u0026rsquo;m going to make the most of it.\nJames: The sky\u0026rsquo;s the limit. Maybe one day you can have a virtual coffee with him. Or perhaps people like that come to Australia, or you can go to America. Who knows?\nFailure that ended up being a success # James: When we speak to people who have done really cool things, their path can sound like, \u0026ldquo;I did this cool thing, then this cool thing, and now I\u0026rsquo;m doing this super-cool thing.\u0026rdquo; It seems as though nothing went wrong for them. Has there been a time when things didn\u0026rsquo;t go well for you and initially seemed like a disaster, but worked out fine, or even better, later?\nElaha: One of my failures goes back to my last two years at uni, when I was focused on getting into Big Four management consulting. Looking back, I was chasing that dream for the wrong reasons. I thought it was prestigious and that reaching the level of management consultant, or gaining one of those prestigious roles, would make people see me as successful.\nDuring university, I applied for those roles and was always rejected at the application phase. I was also an international student back then, so it was hard as hell for me to get into them. I was heartbroken by the management consulting application process. Looking back, however, those rejections redirected my focus towards alternative pathways such as start-ups.\nI remember seeking help from a mentor while applying and following the Big Four pathway. One day, he said, \u0026ldquo;Elaha, have you considered start-ups?\u0026rdquo; This was in 2019, when start-ups weren\u0026rsquo;t as cool or sexy as they are now for a graduate or uni student. I was offended. I thought, \u0026ldquo;He thinks I\u0026rsquo;m going to work at a start-up? That\u0026rsquo;s not prestigious.\u0026rdquo;\nLooking back, those rejections redirected me to where I am today, which is so authentic to who I am and is something I enjoy every day. That failure helped me switch to this path and get where I am today.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great story. It didn\u0026rsquo;t seem good at the time, but it probably worked out better than if you had stuck with the original plan.\nElaha: Rejection is redirection.\nAdvice for Graduates # James: One more question, Elaha, which I ask all guests on the show. Think back to when you were finishing uni, perhaps in your last year, about to go out into the world and apply for jobs. Knowing what you know now and everything you\u0026rsquo;ve done, what advice would you give yourself at that stage?\nElaha: I would say: be bold, take risks and don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid of unknown paths. Growing up, society tells us to take a safe, linear path. It lays out a path where if you do X and Y, you\u0026rsquo;ll get Z, and that\u0026rsquo;s how you\u0026rsquo;ll be successful.\nFor a long time, I chased paths that had been laid out for me, such as management consulting and other roles, because I was afraid of taking risks and following unknown paths. If you take an unknown path, such as a start-up or entrepreneurship, you don\u0026rsquo;t know what lies ahead in five or ten years. It\u0026rsquo;s unknown and very risky.\nLooking back at my younger self as a graduate or university student, I would say: take risks and don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid of the unknown. Once you explore unknown paths that aren\u0026rsquo;t laid out for you, but that you enjoy and are curious about, you will meet the most interesting people. You will be challenged and grow so much. The things you\u0026rsquo;ve always wanted—the people, the tribe, the passion, the things you\u0026rsquo;ve always craved—will come to you through those unknown paths. That\u0026rsquo;s where the magic lies. That\u0026rsquo;s where the growth lies. That\u0026rsquo;s what I would tell my younger self.\nConnect with Elaha # James: Have faith: the magic lies in the unknown. That\u0026rsquo;s a nice way to finish. Thanks so much for coming on the show today, Elaha. It\u0026rsquo;s been great hearing your story, your journey and all the things you\u0026rsquo;ve achieved. For people who want to find out more about you, connect with you or get involved with your newsletter, Twitter and everything else, please tell them where to find you.\nElaha: Thanks so much for having me, James. I love your curiosity and loved chatting with you. I\u0026rsquo;m usually active on Twitter. I\u0026rsquo;m close to hitting 1,000 followers, so please help your girl out. I\u0026rsquo;m trying to be more active on LinkedIn, where I\u0026rsquo;ll post more content and share my journey in tech and start-ups. You can also subscribe to my newsletter, where I share my readings on thought leadership, people in tech, mindset and motivation. Thanks so much for having me, James.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways and the things I learnt from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening today. We look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 40\n","date":"25 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/40-elaha-gurgani/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 40\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Elaha Gurgani | On Exploring Curiosity and Building Your Tribe","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Do you know what you want in life?\nDo you know why you want it?\nIn today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we go deep into creating a more purposeful life.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter. Do it now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nElizabeth Knight is the founder and director of Purposeful. She’s previously been a director at various startups and is now also co-founder of her no-code business, Next Revolution.\nHer mission is to help young people find their place in the world.\n🤝 Connect with Elizabeth # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-knight-009757149/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Define Your Values # that is key to living a purposeful life is not actually having any regrets because if you are truly being like authentic and doing your best to live by your values and make decisions that align with those values then you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t really regret anything\nWe spoke with Liz about vision boards, and how she has used them to create her vision for the next year.\nI thought it was really interesting how Liz went about doing this, finding artefacts and things that she wanted to achieve, but also taking the next step and aligning these things to her values.\nI can write a big list of the things I want or what I want my future life to look like, but I\u0026rsquo;m not so sure which of my values are driving these instincts and desires.\nI am certainly not clear on what my values actually are.\nAnd yet how can I set out to achieve something if I am not sure if it maps to the things that I value?\nIt\u0026rsquo;s an important distinction and one that I admire in the things that Liz has done. She has plenty of clarity on what exactly she wants, and how that maps to her values.\nThis enables her to live a life of authenticity, one without regret.\nBe Bold # If I could change anything from that process, it would just be to, be bolder, sooner in the journey and not wait for so much permission for things from people\nDo not wait for permission.\nAs the saying goes,\nI asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn\u0026rsquo;t work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.\nDo first, ask for permission later.\nDo things you aren\u0026rsquo;t \u0026lsquo;supposed to do\u0026rsquo;\nDo the things you aren\u0026rsquo;t qualified for.\nDo the things you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be able to do.\nPush the boundaries.\nSpend Time With Yourself # the biggest differentiator when I look at my journey and the things that I started doing early on, [\u0026hellip;] was spending time with myself\nSpending time with yourself is vital.\nToday we spend so much time looking at screens, so much time \u0026lsquo;connected\u0026rsquo;, that we spend very little time thinking.\nDigesting what has occurred during the day and thinking about your plans for the future are two examples that both come from spending time in thought.\nLiz shared that this was something that was very beneficial to her, and yet it\u0026rsquo;s something that we are doing less and less.\nSpending time alone, going for walks and engaging with nature is something I strive to do more, to have more time to reflect and away from the chaos of the world.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s an easy thing to do, and Liz thinks it is something very powerful.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Elizabeth Knight\n00:28 Intro\n01:13 Vision Boards\n09:52 Challenges Young People Face Today\n13:57 A New Education System\n18:59 What do students undervalue?\n26:13 The beginnings of Purposeful\n29:50 The Purposeful Journey\n34:55 Most Worthwhile Investments\n40:47 What does success look like?\n43:57 Advice for Graduates\n46:18 Connect with Liz\n47:01 Outro\n","date":"18 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/39-elizabeth-knight/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Do you know what you want in life?\nDo you know why you want it?\n","title":"Elizabeth Knight | On Defining Yourself and Your Mission","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 39\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nElizabeth: I was jealous of people who had a passion. I didn\u0026rsquo;t have one. That\u0026rsquo;s the other thing: now there\u0026rsquo;s this pressure not just to have a career, but to be passionate about it. It\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, there\u0026rsquo;s a whole other layer added to that.\u0026rdquo; Whenever we\u0026rsquo;re championing one set of expectations or ideas of success over another, it\u0026rsquo;s bad.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is the founder and director of Purposeful. She has previously been a director at various startups and is now a co-founder of her no-code business, Next Revolution. Her mission is to help young people find their place in the world.\nPlease welcome Elizabeth Knight to the show. Elizabeth, welcome.\nElizabeth: Thank you so much for having me. I\u0026rsquo;m super excited to chat.\nJames: Me too. You\u0026rsquo;re certainly very inspiring, and it\u0026rsquo;s really cool to see what you\u0026rsquo;re doing in the lives of young people in Perth and right across Australia. I was listening to and researching you before the podcast, and I found that you have this particular interest in vision boards.\nVision Boards # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love it if you could explain the history of vision boards in your life, perhaps when you started using them and what benefits you\u0026rsquo;ve had from creating them.\nElizabeth: Nowadays, you see a lot of vision boards in January on Instagram. There are these beautiful, collage-type things, and that\u0026rsquo;s the only time people talk about their goals with other people, especially on social media. But I\u0026rsquo;d been doing that for quite a while.\nI quite consciously make a vision board almost every year. I usually sit down at the start of the year and spend two or three weeks resetting, connecting with myself again and thinking about the goals I have. To begin with, it\u0026rsquo;s not particularly structured.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a process of trying to get creative again and tap back into the things I really enjoy. That can be anything big or small. I\u0026rsquo;ll map out full mind maps of different bucket-list items and things I want to achieve. Then I spend time refining those goals and figuring out which ones most align with my values and are most authentic or true to me.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s about what is true to me in that moment, because there are lots of things you might want to achieve, but they might not be the most compelling or resonant goals for you in the here and now. Then I go scrapbook-style and create a physical vision board with my top five to eight goals, anchored around the values that are most important to me.\nThat usually sits above my bed, so it\u0026rsquo;s the first thing I see every day when I wake up. For people who aren\u0026rsquo;t familiar with the process, the idea of a vision board is to trick your brain into thinking you\u0026rsquo;ve already achieved these things, so it feels as though you could do it again.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s that idea that seeing is believing: you\u0026rsquo;re training yourself to think that things which seem really lofty and ambitious are possible and within reach. It also makes them hard to forget, because most of us write down our goals at the start of the year and then maybe don\u0026rsquo;t look at them again until the next year, when we restart the process.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also a really creative process for me and a grounding way of coming back to myself. I find that every six to seven months I have a mini life crisis where I\u0026rsquo;m like, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s my vision? What am I doing?\u0026rdquo; The process really helps me refocus.\nSo that\u0026rsquo;s vision boards.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s so good. I think it\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I\u0026rsquo;ve done some in the past, but I\u0026rsquo;ve just made a Word document where I find things to include. Even if it\u0026rsquo;s certain people I want to be like, I\u0026rsquo;ll put a photo of them there.\nI think it would be so helpful to see it every day. It reminds you, \u0026ldquo;Oh yeah, these are the things I\u0026rsquo;m pursuing.\u0026rdquo; Often, at the start of the year, you write down, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to run three times a week for the rest of the year,\u0026rdquo; or whatever.\nYou might do it for a while and then go off track and forget you even decided to do it. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a big part of it too.\nElizabeth: What always amazes me is that I\u0026rsquo;ll start with a list of probably 50 to 100 goals, all of different sizes, and pick only five to eight to work on consciously right now. But when I look back each year, I\u0026rsquo;ve always achieved so many more goals than those I had in my vision and was focusing on.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s because so many are next steps or follow-ons from each other. We don\u0026rsquo;t talk much about consciously carving out time to set goals and dream, but dreaming is so important. You need to really let yourself ask, \u0026ldquo;What would I do if I couldn\u0026rsquo;t fail?\u0026rdquo;\nWhat would you do if time and money were no object, or if whatever barrier you face—confidence, skills, connections, courage or something else—were no longer a barrier? You need to give yourself permission to think about things that aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily realistic or that other people would approve of.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s such an important part of the process. It\u0026rsquo;s not just about having goals that seem cool or look cool to achieve; you need to do that first part as well.\nJames: I love that. I\u0026rsquo;m interested to hear what sort of artefacts you put on the board. Do you have a particular way of doing it?\nElizabeth: Creating the vision itself?\nJames: Let\u0026rsquo;s use the example of wanting to run three times a week. What would you put on the vision board? Are there any particular things you use to articulate the goal?\nElizabeth: You almost have to get really silly with it. If you cringe at what you create, that\u0026rsquo;s a good thing because it means it has struck a nerve and actually resonates with you. I always say it should feel like you\u0026rsquo;re showing someone your diary when you show them your vision, because it should be that personal to you.\nFor example, once upon a time one of my big goals was to meet Taylor Swift. I achieved that goal, which was huge for my nine-year-old self. For ages, I had this really cheesy Photoshopped image of me with Taylor Swift, and I wanted to move to Sydney at the time.\nThe Sydney Harbour Bridge was in the background. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be realistic, and I think that\u0026rsquo;s what people often miss. It\u0026rsquo;s supposed to get you into the zone of what it would feel, look and be like to achieve that goal. Who would be around you? If you were going to a concert to meet Taylor Swift, how would you get there?\nDo you have a dream car you\u0026rsquo;re driving? Who\u0026rsquo;s in the passenger seat next to you, coming on that journey with you? Doing all these exercises really fleshes out what that moment could be like. It seems silly, but it makes the moment all the more real to you, which is a critical part.\nLots of cheesy Photoshopped things go on my vision board, and that\u0026rsquo;s okay because it\u0026rsquo;s supposed to be fun as well.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool and a nice segue: what is on your vision board for this year? Did you end up doing one?\nElizabeth: My vision board this year, I have to admit, is a little broken up, but that\u0026rsquo;s okay. I\u0026rsquo;ve unsubscribed from necessarily doing it every year; you do it when you need it. For a long time, my big vision has been to build a business that\u0026rsquo;s purposeful, sustainable and scalable.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s purposeful in that it creates an impact first and foremost. It\u0026rsquo;s sustainable financially, but also for me personally and for my team. It\u0026rsquo;s scalable in that I want to create something with a legacy that lives beyond my time on this planet, because we have no idea how long that is.\nI\u0026rsquo;m concentrating most of my time at Purposeful, which is a startup helping young people find their place in the world and careers they\u0026rsquo;re passionate about. As part of that, my goal has been to make my first full-time hire this year and do a fundraise that enables us to build a scalable platform to support young people in finding the right pathway for their future.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a huge vision item, and it\u0026rsquo;s why my vision has encroached on multiple years at the moment. Obviously, there\u0026rsquo;s a lot to try to achieve in 12 months, but that\u0026rsquo;s one of the big-ticket items this year.\nChallenges Young People Face Today # James: That\u0026rsquo;s certainly exciting, and I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive into Purposeful in more detail. You\u0026rsquo;re going into schools and helping young people understand what it takes, or what skills they need, to live a more purposeful life. What are some common challenges that young people today are really grappling with?\nElizabeth: Whatever you faced in high school, it\u0026rsquo;s that, but times ten. The challenges I faced when figuring out what I wanted to do have become more and more amplified for this next generation coming through. The number one question we get is always some variation of, \u0026ldquo;How do I make the right choice? How do I pick the right career pathway?\u0026rdquo;\nI\u0026rsquo;m always interested in that wording because it assumes there\u0026rsquo;s a wrong pathway and one dream job out there, sitting and waiting for you somewhere. It assumes it\u0026rsquo;s your job to work harder, study harder and get closer to finding it, which I think is a big myth.\nThe idea of the future of work, and that a lot of jobs don\u0026rsquo;t exist yet, doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean there are jobs we simply don\u0026rsquo;t understand, which aren\u0026rsquo;t tangible and which we can\u0026rsquo;t conceptualise.\nTo me, it means being the curator of your own path and opportunities: identifying problems and potentially creating employment opportunities around solving them. That could be through a business, but it could also be within your organisation. I think that notion is what young people really struggle with.\nIn school, we\u0026rsquo;re taught to conform, but the way we need to think about our careers is the opposite. We need much more agency in designing our own path and must be more proactive about it. Students tend to expect you to tell them, \u0026ldquo;This is the right career for you, it\u0026rsquo;s here, and you can take these one, two, three steps to get there.\u0026rdquo; It just doesn\u0026rsquo;t look like that.\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s both the biggest failing of the education system and a really hard realisation for a 15-year-old: you get to call the shots. That\u0026rsquo;s exciting but also really overwhelming, as we know.\nJames: I think it can be hard for someone at that age to hear, \u0026ldquo;All right, you\u0026rsquo;re in charge of your life. Take responsibility for everything.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s quite a big weight to carry. It\u0026rsquo;s especially hard when you\u0026rsquo;re at that stage and don\u0026rsquo;t really know what any of the options are, let alone the best option.\nElizabeth: Especially when you\u0026rsquo;re still in school, there\u0026rsquo;s a tension in the work we do because we now have the privilege of being the first interaction many young people have when thinking about their careers and future—not just their careers, but the path they want to take when they leave school. That\u0026rsquo;s really exciting.\nBut we\u0026rsquo;re also the first ones to introduce the idea that careers exist and that this is a choice they\u0026rsquo;ll have to make. We\u0026rsquo;re trying to set them up with the best first step we can, knowing that most young people don\u0026rsquo;t have a great first experience with careers.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a lot of pressure to make that experience fun while recognising that careers are tough. It\u0026rsquo;s not easy; it\u0026rsquo;s kind of painful, and there\u0026rsquo;s going to be struggle. There\u0026rsquo;s no perfect way to do it.\nA New Education System # James: You mentioned the education system. I feel like it gets a lot of hate at the moment, but if you had to make some tweaks—or perhaps even create a whole new education system that did things completely differently from school—what would you do?\nHave you thought about what schools could do better or what your ideal education system would look like?\nElizabeth: The number one change I\u0026rsquo;m passionate about is redefining what success looks like in our system. In my experience, success looks like a certain ATAR. The system prioritises one version of success over another, which is so unhealthy and has many ripple effects later in life.\nWe need to shift towards a wider, individualised idea of success and what fulfilment looks like to each young person. They need to be able to go through that self-discovery process and work out what it looks like for them. The second shift is related to that same notion, but it\u0026rsquo;s about expectations.\nI go into schools and often talk with teachers and educators about the challenges we see young people facing and what they can do about them. There\u0026rsquo;s often a comeback along the lines of, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t we have a responsibility to make sure students are doing something realistic for them—something they\u0026rsquo;re capable of?\u0026rdquo;\nI agree with that to some extent, but why is it such a bad thing to fail? Why is it so bad for someone to try something and then say, \u0026ldquo;Oh, that\u0026rsquo;s actually not right for me,\u0026rdquo; rather than making all these decisions based on outside influences and factors?\nWhen you\u0026rsquo;re 15, 16 or 17, it is about failing and making mistakes. That\u0026rsquo;s what that whole young period of your life is about, and we try to bubble-wrap kids against it. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a big problem because it means they don\u0026rsquo;t know their own limitations. It also doesn\u0026rsquo;t account for the role of passion and purpose in building skills and talents.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re motivated by something, as any founder knows, you have to learn all these skills that you were most likely not good at in Year 10 or Year 11. I have a cousin who\u0026rsquo;s about 16 years old. When she was in Year 8, she received a letter from the school saying she was on a VET pathway.\nShe was already on that pathway in Year 8 based on her Year 8 grades. That sounds terrible, but it happens in so many schools we see. Narrowing and pigeonholing kids into these paths and definitions of what they can and can\u0026rsquo;t do is so arbitrary, and it limits people\u0026rsquo;s potential in so many ways when we think like that.\nJames: I agree. I remember that, when I was in school, I wasn\u0026rsquo;t someone who could say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m definitely going to do this particular thing.\u0026rdquo; I almost felt jealous of people who knew what they were going to do. I thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know yet. That sucks.\u0026rdquo;\nElizabeth: I was the same. I was jealous of people who had a passion because I didn\u0026rsquo;t have one. That\u0026rsquo;s the other thing: now there\u0026rsquo;s this pressure not just to have a career, but to be passionate about it. It\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, there\u0026rsquo;s a whole other layer added to that.\u0026rdquo; Whenever we\u0026rsquo;re championing one set of expectations or ideas of success over another, it\u0026rsquo;s bad.\nEven saying that more young people should be entrepreneurs is still bad, in my opinion, because it again prioritises one idea of success over another and doesn\u0026rsquo;t recognise that not everybody is going to be an entrepreneur. That\u0026rsquo;s never going to happen.\nSo I don\u0026rsquo;t think we should do that.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;re right. We\u0026rsquo;re all playing a role in the team. It\u0026rsquo;s like a sports team: not everyone can be the full-forward who kicks all the goals in the footy game. Other people play different, equally important positions.\nWhat do students undervalue? # James: Spot on. Is there one thing you wish young people would do that would really benefit them, or something they underestimate the value of doing when they\u0026rsquo;re in high school?\nElizabeth: When I look at my journey, the biggest differentiator was something I started doing early on—not necessarily by choice—which has paid off in so many ways: spending time with myself. That might sound like an unlikely answer, but it\u0026rsquo;s about taking time to really get to know who you are and building self-awareness. It\u0026rsquo;s not about binary things like strengths and weaknesses, but simply who you are.\nWhat drives you? What motivates you? What energises you? What drains you? What are your goals? What would you really love to do? What fires you up and frustrates you? Building that self-awareness over time is like building a muscle at the gym.\nWe\u0026rsquo;d love to go to the gym and have a six-pack after ten minutes—amazing—but sadly, it\u0026rsquo;s impossible. The same applies to understanding what you want, who you are and your direction. You can\u0026rsquo;t do it based on just ten minutes of thought. I think a lot of people put pressure on themselves and say, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t work it out already, so now I\u0026rsquo;m going to give up. There\u0026rsquo;s no point.\u0026rdquo;\nIf they looked back, they\u0026rsquo;d probably spent a total of an hour consciously trying to work out who they are and what they want. It takes time, but it\u0026rsquo;s so important. When you talk to employers nowadays—and they don\u0026rsquo;t all recognise this—the biggest differentiator between candidates is the ability to be authentically yourself and to be confident in doing so.\nThis also differentiates the people you meet who you find interesting and compelling from those you don\u0026rsquo;t connect with. If you\u0026rsquo;re clever and take it to the next level, you can create opportunities by being your authentic self.\nI did that by creating my own business. It\u0026rsquo;s an extension of who I am in many ways, and it has now become a career pathway for me. There are so many other ways to do that, too, such as starting a podcast, writing or making something creative. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t even have to be creative, but understanding your authentic self and practising it is so powerful.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a form of what I call career capital: the assets you build up early in your career. We usually think about building experience and putting good things on your résumé, but there\u0026rsquo;s another element of career capital, which is your personal capital—who you are.\nCan you tell a story that connects all those experiences in a meaningful way? If you can\u0026rsquo;t, they\u0026rsquo;re not worth as much as we think. So: authenticity, understanding who you are, devoting conscious time to working that out and not beating yourself up about it. You\u0026rsquo;re not going to work it out in ten minutes, as much as you\u0026rsquo;d like to.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;d love to continue that thread. Recently, I\u0026rsquo;ve been reading about digital minimalism, getting off your phone and that kind of thing. I think technology is a huge barrier that prevents many people from doing this. When does a young person ever actually sit down with nothing?\nYou might go for a walk with a podcast in your ears, go to the shops or have music playing in the car. Unlike perhaps 20 years ago, now there\u0026rsquo;s almost no time when there\u0026rsquo;s nothing.\nIt prevents you from asking many of those questions: \u0026ldquo;What do you like?\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;Well, I haven\u0026rsquo;t spent much time thinking about it because I\u0026rsquo;ve gone from here to here, looking at this thing and that thing.\u0026rdquo;\nElizabeth: Ironically, I first started spending a lot of time with myself when I was super burnt out after Year 12. My high school boyfriend had dumped me, and all these things were happening at once. By chance, I also did an internship over summer. It was kind of boring, and I was literally the only young person there. It was at the university.\nI would sit and have lunch by myself every day. Even that act would have been really foreign to me. But over three or four months, all these things happened that made me spend more time with myself. We have a podcast and have interviewed lots of young people about the journey of finding purpose. Almost all of them found it after some event forced them to take space.\nMore recently, that event might have been COVID. People can say, \u0026ldquo;Oh yeah, that happened for me somewhat. I was forced to be at home and potentially alone for these extended periods.\u0026rdquo; You can recognise that and consciously create space for yourself. You\u0026rsquo;re 100 per cent right that you have to, because you can consume content in different ways all the time without ever stopping.\nNow that muscle and awareness are in me, I get really anxious and often overwhelmed when I don\u0026rsquo;t do that. To me, being purposeful means acting on those feelings that say, \u0026ldquo;You need to stop right now.\u0026rdquo;\nYou need to tune back in to what\u0026rsquo;s going on before you rush on to the next thing. It\u0026rsquo;s really challenging because it goes against the entire way we live right now. But if you can do it, it will pay off for you so, so, so much.\nJames: I agree. There\u0026rsquo;s serious value in eating lunch without any technology nearby—the TV isn\u0026rsquo;t on and there are no phones anywhere—or simply going for a walk. There\u0026rsquo;s no podcast or audiobook playing. Taking simple time out like that is very helpful.\nIt helps you deal with everything that might be going on in your day-to-day life and gives you time to think and reflect. For me, it\u0026rsquo;s been seriously beneficial. Let\u0026rsquo;s talk about your journey as a founder, because Purposeful is your thing.\nThe beginnings of Purposeful # James: Now you\u0026rsquo;re doing your second business, which is this no-code adventure. What was the story behind starting Purposeful? Was there a tipping point when you went from, \u0026ldquo;This is a cool idea,\u0026rdquo; to, \u0026ldquo;Okay, we\u0026rsquo;re actually doing this now\u0026rdquo;?\nElizabeth: I like the idea of a tipping point because lots of things lead to starting a business, but what was the thing that actually made you do it? I experienced this problem myself when I graduated with a shiny high ATAR and a scholarship to university. I had ticked off all these traditional ideas of success, and I was so unhappy.\nI was so burnt out and exhausted after high school that burnout took a physical toll on me. It expresses itself differently for everybody, but, as I said earlier, it forced a period of pause and reflection. I realised that so many young people feel incredibly lost but don\u0026rsquo;t know how to talk about it.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s not really any support once you leave school to help you find a path that\u0026rsquo;s right for you, fulfils you and drives you. That was the problem I wanted to solve. Then an opportunity came up when someone asked me to run a workshop on something totally different in which I\u0026rsquo;d been involved; it was more about leadership.\nI said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, do you mind if I try this purpose idea? I want to run a session on how to find your purpose.\u0026rdquo; It was a 90-minute workshop with about 50 Year 10 and 11 students on this camp.\nIt was first thing on Sunday morning, absolutely the graveyard shift. I ran this crash course. It was super raw and unpolished in so many ways, but the impact was huge. In all honesty, I\u0026rsquo;ve probably never run another workshop or session as powerful as that first one.\nI still have the feedback forms we printed. Every single kid filled out a double-sided form, and they raved about the experience. That was the moment I realised, \u0026ldquo;There\u0026rsquo;s a real need for this, and I can actually solve it. I know what young people need, and I can go on that journey to help them.\u0026rdquo;\nEven now, students who were in that session come up to me at uni and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I remember you from that workshop.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s amazing because it was the first real step, even though I didn\u0026rsquo;t know it at the time.\nJames: Having that impact is so special, and it\u0026rsquo;s great to see that you\u0026rsquo;ve had the courage to go through with it and do more of that great work with young people as well.\nYou started Purposeful when you were fairly young. I think you were 19, if that\u0026rsquo;s right, which is young for someone starting their own company and doing all this super-cool stuff. What has that journey been like for you as someone taking on a lot of responsibility? Has it been rewarding or challenging?\nThe Purposeful Journey # James: It has probably been quite crazy. I\u0026rsquo;m interested to hear how you evaluate the journey so far.\nElizabeth: It\u0026rsquo;s a really interesting question right now because I\u0026rsquo;m forced to confront the idea that it has been four years since that first session and opportunity, which is huge. In some ways, I still see myself as the 19-year-old who was on that journey. But I have to realise all the ways I\u0026rsquo;m different, how much things have changed and everything that\u0026rsquo;s been achieved since then.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a significant amount of time. It\u0026rsquo;s also a huge and formative part of your life as a young person, between 19 and 23. I\u0026rsquo;ve grown so much personally through that process. Ironically, the hardest thing I dealt with at the beginning was my self-worth, because people would look at me and ask, \u0026ldquo;How did you have the confidence to start that?\u0026rdquo;\nI was confident, but when you\u0026rsquo;re founding a company, especially when you\u0026rsquo;re young, you don\u0026rsquo;t know anything. The only given is that every day you\u0026rsquo;re going to learn at least one thing, because you know nothing about the process. It can be really disempowering at times because every time you solve a problem, you move on to a bigger problem that you still know nothing about.\nThe resilience and grit—I love that word, grit—have been the biggest takeaways from this journey. No matter where I go next or how things eventually turn out, they will always stick with me. In addition, when I began, I was really caught up in the idea of being a young person and a young woman in this space. That absolutely influenced how I thought about things and what I believed I could and couldn\u0026rsquo;t do.\nIf I could change anything about that process, it would be to be bolder sooner in the journey and not wait for so much permission from people to say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re ready to ask for this now,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re ready to set this goal now.\u0026rdquo; That mindset is a little more mainstream now.\nWe accept it more and don\u0026rsquo;t define people as much by their age. But age absolutely played a big part in my mindset at the beginning. I wondered, \u0026ldquo;Am I allowed to do this? Can I do this? Will people think I\u0026rsquo;m silly if I do this?\u0026rdquo; You have to tackle the impostor syndrome that exists when you\u0026rsquo;re in a job and on a journey that puts you at the bottom of the food chain every day.\nJames: An interesting follow-up is: would you do all that again if you could restart?\nElizabeth: Honestly, yes. A key to living a purposeful life is not having regrets. If you\u0026rsquo;re being authentic, doing your best to live by your values and making decisions that align with those values, you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t really regret anything because you\u0026rsquo;ve given it your all and committed to the process.\nFor example, there are many things I\u0026rsquo;ve passed up to take this path, such as getting a normal job and being paid. I laugh now because I know I\u0026rsquo;m at my most stressed when I\u0026rsquo;m craving a real job—a real job.\nI wish I could just go somewhere to work, get paid for eight hours and then go home. That\u0026rsquo;s funny because, obviously, it is most people\u0026rsquo;s reality. But I don\u0026rsquo;t regret my choice. You have to accept that, with every choice you make, there are thousands of things you\u0026rsquo;re saying no to in that moment as well.\nThat is life. I don\u0026rsquo;t regret the journey, but there are definitely times when I could have been more courageous or acted with even more conviction, especially when it came to my values. You could probably guess some of them: purpose is really important to me.\nAuthenticity, growth and wellbeing are also really important to me. There are times when I may have shied away from growth that would have been helpful earlier on, but it always catches up with you eventually. If you need to grow, you have to tune in to that and run with it, even if it\u0026rsquo;s scary.\nMost Worthwhile Investments # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool, and I appreciate your authentic answer. What has been your most valuable investment along the way? It could be something you did, a chance meeting with someone, a course you signed up for or something you paid for that had a huge impact on you.\nDo any worthwhile investments come to mind?\nElizabeth: I love that question, and I\u0026rsquo;m awful at answering it. Without repeating myself too much, definitely the investment in myself. Carving out conscious time is invaluable; it\u0026rsquo;s priceless and has paid off in so many ways for my future self.\nDoing and continuing that has been incredibly important. Any opportunity to shift your mindset is so powerful, and it comes in many forms. One example came during high school, and my parents paid for it, so I think it was a worthwhile investment for them. I attended a leadership conference that was like a Tony Robbins event for high school students.\nIt was in Los Angeles, and I\u0026rsquo;d never been to America at that point in my life, so it was very much a culture shock. We arrived and there were about 500 other young people from all over the world, raving and dancing. It was super hyped and exciting.\nThe founder, Dr Bill Dorfman, is a celebrity dentist. He was the dentist on The Doctors, one of those daytime TV shows. His clients weren\u0026rsquo;t all celebrities, but many were the best in the world at whatever they did in their fields.\nHe would bring them to the conference to speak about how they became successful and what their journeys were. As a 15-year-old, you\u0026rsquo;d think, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;ve heard this before. Five people have said this already.\u0026rdquo; It was helpful, but you\u0026rsquo;d still ask, \u0026ldquo;Can I really do this? How does this relate to me?\u0026rdquo;\nBy the end of the week, it clicked that they were all saying the same things because these incredibly successful people do the same things. We should listen to them because they know how to achieve great success, whatever success looks like to them.\nThat experience literally paved the way for the growth mindset I didn\u0026rsquo;t realise I\u0026rsquo;d been given at that time: I could do anything. Literally anything was possible, and you were the creator of your own path. It gave me an overwhelming sense of agency that you don\u0026rsquo;t get in the classroom.\nEver since, I\u0026rsquo;ve craved any experience that gives you a new sense of purpose, makes you feel small in a really good, healthy way and reminds you that anything is possible. We all need that so much more in our lives. That would be my answer.\nJames: That sounds like a very cool experience. I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you can remember, but what were some of the key things those speakers said about achieving really cool things?\nElizabeth: One quote instantly comes to mind. I don\u0026rsquo;t even remember the man\u0026rsquo;s name, but he had a horrific story. He\u0026rsquo;d been in a fire, a horrible accident, and had lost multiple limbs and had all these disabilities as a result. He asked, \u0026ldquo;How far are you willing to go alone?\u0026rdquo;\nFor anything you want to achieve, how far are you willing to go alone? That\u0026rsquo;s always stuck with me. With any bold goal, problem you want to solve or thing you want to achieve, how far are you willing to go while being the only person who believes it can happen?\nReally let that sink in, because it\u0026rsquo;s huge. As human beings, we\u0026rsquo;re biologically trained to have the support, love and care of the people around us. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t make evolutionary sense to go out on your own all the time. You have to fight that instinct to do what other people are doing, listen to them and get their approval first.\nWhen you\u0026rsquo;re founding a company, how far are you willing to go and be the only person who believes in that thing? I think that has been my biggest takeaway and is also the source of the grit to keep going.\nThe other thing he said, quite humbly, was, \u0026ldquo;What more can I do?\u0026rdquo; In most instances, we can live a life as small or as large as we choose. Playing it safe and small will never fulfil you or realise the potential you could have had on the planet.\nI really like that idea too: what more can I do to serve and give back in return for the opportunity to be alive and here at this time in history?\nWhat does success look like? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s super cool. Thanks so much for sharing that. Another thing you mentioned when talking about your trip to LA was working towards what success looks like for you. Obviously, that\u0026rsquo;s different for everyone, and it\u0026rsquo;s important not to adopt someone else\u0026rsquo;s idea of success without thinking it through yourself.\nWhat does success look like for you?\nElizabeth: It\u0026rsquo;s an evolving answer at the moment, as it should be, because we grow and change as people too. At its core, success has always been about fulfilment and alignment with my values. Part of trying to achieve success is balancing where you are right now—fully accepting and appreciating yourself and what you have, and being grateful for the present—with the far-off vision you have for the future.\nThere will always be tension between those two things, especially if you\u0026rsquo;re founding a company, because you\u0026rsquo;re pitching this vision that\u0026rsquo;s far in the future. But you also have to recognise, \u0026ldquo;Hey, we\u0026rsquo;ve done well to get where we are today, but we can always be better.\u0026rdquo;\nSuccess is always about balancing those two ideas. I have lots of dreams, goals and ambitions for the future, but I would say it takes much more work to accept what you\u0026rsquo;ve already achieved. That\u0026rsquo;s not an explicit goal or thing I\u0026rsquo;m trying to achieve; it\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;m trying to practise all the time in my life.\nThe reality—and this is really core to my thinking, if you know me well—is that none of us knows how much time we have on the planet. It\u0026rsquo;s absolutely not guaranteed for anybody. God forbid, this could be my last day. Could I sit with myself and the decisions I\u0026rsquo;ve made, in this moment, and accept them if today were my last day?\nBut you might also have another 10, 20, 30 or 40 years, hopefully, to work harder. I think you need both things to be truly fulfilled. Success, to me, means being inspired to keep creating and doing, while also being able to look around and say, \u0026ldquo;This is awesome.\u0026rdquo;\nThis is amazing. All the pain and the good—the positive and negative parts of right now—I\u0026rsquo;m really grateful for. That\u0026rsquo;s success.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I\u0026rsquo;ll have to reflect on that. You\u0026rsquo;ve been great at sharing in the last hour or so, and I really appreciate you being so vulnerable with us. To finish the podcast today, I have one last question for you, Liz, about the advice you\u0026rsquo;d give to someone just starting out.\nAdvice for Graduates # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s say they\u0026rsquo;ve finished high school and are starting their journey in the big wide world. Reflecting on your own journey, what advice would you give someone going through that right now?\nElizabeth: The first thing that comes to mind is: be emotional, which is kind of strange. When I was younger, I thought it was bad to be passionate in a way. Young people get this bad rap for being too angry and fired up—or the opposite, not caring enough.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important not to worry about perfection when you\u0026rsquo;re young because it\u0026rsquo;s impossible to achieve. Just feel things, act somewhat impulsively, and appreciate the good and bad that come with being a young person. You have to go through all of that.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all a really positive thing. That would be my first piece of advice. Secondly, be bold. Again, how far are you willing to go alone? Absolutely don\u0026rsquo;t let anybody else define the path in front of you if you don\u0026rsquo;t want them to. You might have a family or parents who want a particular thing for you and think it\u0026rsquo;s best for you.\nYou might agree with some of those things, and that\u0026rsquo;s totally fine. The key is being able to ask yourself, \u0026ldquo;Why am I doing this? What\u0026rsquo;s really driving this goal or step for me? Am I going to university because I think I have to, or because it\u0026rsquo;s actually the most purposeful step for me?\u0026rdquo;\nAsk yourself why and really think about that when you\u0026rsquo;re making choices. Do your best to make those decisions in alignment with who you are, not the rest of the world around you. Honestly, at the end of the day, who cares what they think? You have to live with it; they don\u0026rsquo;t.\nThat would be my advice.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s fantastic. Thanks for sharing that with us and for coming on the show. It\u0026rsquo;s been really insightful to hear about your experiences and everything you\u0026rsquo;ve shared. It\u0026rsquo;s super cool, and I think you\u0026rsquo;re on an amazing journey.\nConnect with Liz # James: It will be really exciting to see where you end up in the next couple of years, so I\u0026rsquo;m super keen to stay in touch. For people who want to find out more about you and connect, where is the best place for them to go?\nElizabeth: I\u0026rsquo;m pretty easy to find on LinkedIn and our website at Purposeful. Send me a message, and make sure you let me know you heard about me here, which is always nice to know. I\u0026rsquo;m absolutely happy to chat with anybody. Thanks so much for this; it has been awesome. I really appreciate it.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;ll leave links to your social media in the show notes so people can find you. Thanks so much for coming on the show today, Liz. It was great having you.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 39\n","date":"18 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/39-elizabeth-knight/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 39\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Elizabeth Knight | On Defining Yourself and Your Mission","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Coming to Australia and learning English is no easy feat.\nToday\u0026rsquo;s guest has done that, and now teaches people worldwide how to land the job of their dreams.\nShe\u0026rsquo;s a career and life coach with plenty of wisdom to share.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter. Do it now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWatch this episode on YouTube.\nJuliana Owen was voted Top 10 Career Coaches to be watched in 2021 by the Australian Business Journal. Originally from Brazil, she has over 2 decades of global experience working across strategy, people \u0026amp; culture, and recruitment.\nShe’s the founder of her brand New Mind Consulting.\n🤝 Connect with Juliana # Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/newmindconsulting/\nLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/julianamarottamarques/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Problems are opportunities # One of the things I really liked about our chat was Juliana\u0026rsquo;s view on the pandemic.\nThere was certainly a lot of destruction and negative outcomes from the pandemic. Fortunately, Juliana took it all as a positive.\nShe described the pandemic as being an opportunity for herself and her newly created business.\nMore generally, Juliana had this to say about turning problems into opportunities.\nSo if you look at the challenges you\u0026rsquo;re going to be facing as a platform for your success, not as a problem, it\u0026rsquo;s much easier for you to get motivated. So you, you actually own the challenge and when you own the challenge, your brain feels curious about what\u0026rsquo;s the final outcome.\nHer advice: own your challenges and seek the positives.\nAustralian Job Market is a Specialist Market # A surprising part of our conversation was when we were talking about the differences in the job market between Australia and other countries.\nJuliana mentioned that in Australia we have much more of a specialist market. When a role is listed, candidates are expected to fit the exact job criteria.\nIn other countries, this is not the case. For countries like Brazil, India and others, having a more generalist skillset and showing you can do what is on the job description plus more, is much more valuable.\nNetworking # Juliana shared that one thing that her clients undervalue is networking.\nOnce you are in an industry, you get known and you can land jobs simply by chatting to colleagues.\nBeing well connected and in communities with people working in places that you want to work will make the job search significantly easier.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Juliana Owen\n00:19 Intro\n01:04 Juliana\u0026rsquo;s Journey from Brazil to Australia\n04:55 Going out on her own\n08:14 What does a day in her life look like?\n10:36 What Juliana helps people with\n14:01 Differences in Job applications in Australia\n19:00 Common Problems with Professional Applications\n23:49 Are cover letters less common?\n27:40 Undervalues parts of the application process\n32:04 Similar traits in successful job applicants\n38:06 Juliana\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n41:00 Where to find Juliana\n41:45 Outro\n","date":"11 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/38-juliana-owen/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Coming to Australia and learning English is no easy feat.\nToday’s guest has done that, and now teaches people worldwide how to land the job of their dreams.\n","title":"Juliana Owen | On Building Your Career in the Australian Job Market","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 38\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJuliana: People say, “But you\u0026rsquo;re not well prepared.” Then you create an illusion. If you do not look for development in those areas, you\u0026rsquo;re just going to become a victim of the system, right?\nIntro # James: Today\u0026rsquo;s guest was voted one of the top 10 career coaches to watch in 2021 by the Australian Business Journal. Originally from Brazil, she has over two decades of global experience working across strategy, people and culture, and recruitment. She\u0026rsquo;s the founder of her brand, New Mind Consulting. Please welcome to the show Juliana Owen.\nJuliana Owen, welcome to the show. I\u0026rsquo;d love to start today by talking about your journey and the start of your career, because you did quite a big thing: moving from somewhere that doesn\u0026rsquo;t speak English to somewhere that does, then trying to work out everything that goes along with that.\nJuliana\u0026rsquo;s Journey from Brazil to Australia # James: That includes trying to find a job and everything like that. What was that experience like, and what led you to come to Australia and start your career here?\nJuliana: I started in recruitment and talent acquisition back in Brazil. I did a degree in psychology, which was, I guess, my first step into this world of personal and professional development. It\u0026rsquo;s very fascinating when you start understanding and learning how this software here works, and how you can use it for your own benefit in terms of putting yourself in different environments.\nBack in Brazil, I worked for global businesses. I guess the highlight of my career there was the ABN AMRO Bank project, which was the largest outsourcing project in Latin America. I also worked for an American business there, where I had the opportunity to set up the professional side of the business with very senior people.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s when I started learning a lot about recruitment strategies and careers. The personal side comes with that because you\u0026rsquo;re dealing with people. When you\u0026rsquo;re dealing with people, the majority of us want to be successful in life and our careers. I started combining the psychology side with the business side.\nI finished my degree in 2008, and I had a very good opportunity in Brazil to step up in my career. I was working for an American business, but I needed to improve my communication skills, so I decided to come to Australia, do a business English course and get my communication skills up to speed.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t have any plans to stay here for good, but I fell in love with Sydney immediately. How could you not, right? For me, it\u0026rsquo;s the most beautiful place on the entire planet. I love it here so much.\nI fell in love with Sydney, started developing my communication skills and looked for a job that would challenge me. Here in Australia, I\u0026rsquo;ve been working across recruitment, consulting and talent acquisition. I\u0026rsquo;ve worked for large recruitment agencies and consulting businesses.\nMy last two roles before I set up New Mind Consulting were in talent acquisition and as head of talent, where I had to bring together my experience on the life side—the personal self-development side—and the professional side. Along this journey in Australia over the past 13 years, I have done a lot of different courses. I\u0026rsquo;ve studied neuroscience, relationship counselling, cognitive behavioural therapy and NLP, or neurolinguistic programming. This has helped me combine these skills and give my best to the clients I worked with in the corporate world.\nThat was the spark that made me start thinking about New Mind Consulting, which was a project I\u0026rsquo;d had in mind for a long time. People naturally used to come to me, back in the day in Brazil and also here in Australia, asking for coaching and mentoring across these two main areas: life and career. They are much more interlinked than we think.\nUsually, if you\u0026rsquo;re looking for success at work, you will develop much faster if you\u0026rsquo;re well developed, or at least have a solid base, in your personal life.\nGoing out on her own # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. You went from working in recruitment and different sorts of roles in big companies to starting your own thing. Was there a particular moment when you thought, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to do this now and go out on my own”? What\u0026rsquo;s the story behind that?\nJuliana: When the pandemic hit, there was a big shock for everyone around the world, right? People were insecure about their jobs, what was going to happen with the market situation and a lot of different aspects of life itself. But I had this project in the back of my mind, and I was working towards its completion.\nWhen the pandemic hit, I thought, “Yes, that\u0026rsquo;s exactly the opportunity I was waiting for,” because I wanted to serve different people around the world. There are a lot of people of different nationalities who want to come to Australia and be successful in this country. I do think Australia gives a lot of opportunities to everyone, so working online would be the best way to go.\nI thought, “Perfect. I\u0026rsquo;m going to set up an online platform. I can connect with people around the world: people looking to come to Australia and people who are already here but cannot get out of their houses because we\u0026rsquo;re in lockdown.” I guess that was the perfect timing, really, because I\u0026rsquo;ve been very busy since then, which is great.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting that you framed the pandemic as an opportunity. I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool.\nJuliana: Look, James, I see everything that happens in life this way. This is actually one of the things that I work on a lot with my clients. Naturally, when we see a barrier or a challenge that we need to overcome, the way we\u0026rsquo;ve been set up in society means we immediately think, “That\u0026rsquo;s going to be a problem. That\u0026rsquo;s negative.” We always go towards that side.\nMy job is to help people change their mindset and make them feel excited about it. If you look at the challenges you\u0026rsquo;re going to face as a platform for your success, not as a problem, it\u0026rsquo;s much easier to get motivated, find your determination and get into it without feeling pain.\nYou actually take on the challenge, and when you take on a challenge, your brain becomes curious about the final outcome. You think, “I\u0026rsquo;m taking on the challenge.” But if you\u0026rsquo;re in the problem, you just think, “Wow, I\u0026rsquo;m in the problem. What am I going to do here?” So, yes, I saw the pandemic as a fantastic opportunity for my business.\nJames: I feel like many people would look at the pandemic or something like that and think, “This sucks,” focusing on all the negatives. I think it\u0026rsquo;s really cool that you can look at something like that and, although there are obviously negatives, look at the positives and choose to take it as something positive. I think that\u0026rsquo;s really powerful.\nOne thing I want to ask is what someone like you, as a coach, actually does and what a day in your life looks like.\nWhat does a day in the life look like? # James: Sometimes, coaching—or helping people with careers, or whatever it might be—can be hard to understand in tangible terms. What does it actually involve? Obviously, we don\u0026rsquo;t want to share too much about exactly what you do, but I\u0026rsquo;d love you to give us a glimpse of what a day in Juliana\u0026rsquo;s life looks like.\nJuliana: Busy—really, really busy. Usually, my day starts around six. I exercise in the morning. I actually do what I preach to my clients, right? I think it\u0026rsquo;s all about leading by example as well. Once you go through the process, you can understand the difficulty your client will face in overcoming one aspect or another of the self-development process.\nI get up very early, exercise, meditate, have breakfast and get ready for my first session. Usually, my first session starts at seven in the morning. I also work around people\u0026rsquo;s availability. That\u0026rsquo;s another advantage of working online and working from home.\nI have clients, for example, in London. When they\u0026rsquo;re waking up at nine in the morning, it\u0026rsquo;s 6.00 pm here in Australia. I also have clients who finish work at 6.30 pm, and their session will start at 7.30 pm. My day starts at seven and finishes around nine. It\u0026rsquo;s really busy.\nDiary management is very challenging on a daily basis because people\u0026rsquo;s priorities change: meetings, kids and whatever is going on in their lives. I work around the client. I like to get myself ready so I can give my best to my clients and they can make the most of the sessions. The sessions usually go from 60 to 90 minutes, depending on what we\u0026rsquo;re working on and which program the client is interested in.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear what it\u0026rsquo;s like. As I said, with coaching, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to understand what you actually do.\nJuliana: What do they do, right?\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;d love to get into the sorts of things that you actually help people with.\nWhat Juliana helps people with # James: My understanding is that a lot of the clients you help are looking for career advice in Australia but have a different background and haven\u0026rsquo;t grown up here. What are some of the challenges you commonly see? What is a classic case that Juliana is out there to fix?\nJuliana: On the career side, the biggest thing that comes to me most of the time is clients looking for guidance in understanding the Australian market. The way recruitment and the market work here is completely different from South America, Asia, America and India. It\u0026rsquo;s very specific.\nThe majority of people come to Australia and think, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to do this. I\u0026rsquo;m going to do that.” Then they realise, “Oops, there is something that I\u0026rsquo;m missing. How does this work? What are these people looking for?” I would say understanding the Australian market is one thing.\nAnother very common thing is that people want to know the practical aspects of how to get into this market. They think, “Now I understand how this works. How am I going to get into it?” That\u0026rsquo;s where the job I do on the career-coaching side comes in.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve got programs where we can set up the professional portfolio, which includes a CV, cover letter and LinkedIn. Some programs have that combination and a mock interview as well. In other programs, I do a more detailed report and personality assessment. I also have a five-to-ten-week program that I develop according to the client\u0026rsquo;s needs.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve got clients already in Australia who are looking to transition careers, change markets or step up in their careers. How can we do that? Usually, it\u0026rsquo;s about understanding what the market is and how to get there. That\u0026rsquo;s basically the career side.\nOn the life-coaching side, because the areas are so interlinked, I would say confidence and relationships across the board: family, friendships and working relationships. Those are significant issues. Australia has people from all over the world, and it\u0026rsquo;s very challenging for someone from a specific culture to fit into Australian culture. I love Australian culture because it\u0026rsquo;s very straightforward. People are very black and white.\nBut some people don\u0026rsquo;t really understand it. They say, “I went to an interview and the client said this and that. I don\u0026rsquo;t think he liked me.” I say, “No, that\u0026rsquo;s actually standard. You did very well.” Then the person calls me back and says, “I\u0026rsquo;ve got the second interview.” It takes a little while for them to warm up, right?\nWith career and life interlinked, my job is always to have a positive impact on these people\u0026rsquo;s lives and help them achieve the end result.\nDifferences in Job applications in Australia # James: You mentioned some differences between Australia and the rest of the world. What are some of those differences? Are they good or bad differences, in your opinion?\nJuliana: I think it\u0026rsquo;s actually fantastic. I really love Australian culture. That\u0026rsquo;s why I love this country so much. Here, people are very black and white and very straight to the point.\nIf you look across different markets, some professionals think being a generalist is a very positive thing: “I can do one, two, three, four, five different things. Look at how awesome I am.” Great, it\u0026rsquo;s wonderful that you can do five different things, but here in Australia, the market is a specialist market, not a generalist market. The client will be looking for specific skills. There is a specific mindset and perhaps a specific attitude required for you to do that job and add value to the business.\nA lot of my clients who come from overseas take a little while to understand this, but the work is very rewarding afterwards when they get results. They need to focus on one area, and that area is usually the one they like the most. That\u0026rsquo;s how you become a specialist, and that\u0026rsquo;s how you generate value for the company or whoever you\u0026rsquo;re working with. I would say being more of a specialist than a generalist is one of the main characteristics.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting perspective. Many of us, including young people like me, haven\u0026rsquo;t seen many job markets outside Australia, so it\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear that.\nWhat would your advice be for someone coming here from overseas with more of a generalist approach to jobs, where they work across multiple areas? What are their next steps? Is it more about framing their experience to show that they\u0026rsquo;re a specialist in certain areas, or is there an element of upskilling where they need to learn things to become more of a specialist?\nJuliana: My first piece of advice would be to look for someone who knows how this works—a professional who will help you understand it. There are a lot of different ways of presenting a CV, a cover letter and a LinkedIn profile, depending on where you are.\nFor example, in South America, a cover letter is a more general overview of yourself. You put everything in there: a lot of details and different information. Here in Australia, it works completely differently. When the job asks for a cover letter, they\u0026rsquo;re asking you to highlight to the business which of your abilities match the job and what you can provide to the company.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re looking for reassurance that you would be a potential candidate to interview, so they don\u0026rsquo;t waste their time. They\u0026rsquo;re not really interested in whether you like swimming or football. At this first stage of the process, they want to know: “How can you add value to my business? What do you have that will help us get where we want to go? How can we, as a business, help you develop your skills further?”\nThere are also a lot of different areas of CVs and LinkedIn profiles that I could discuss in more detail. But my first advice is that if you don\u0026rsquo;t know where you stand—if you don\u0026rsquo;t understand the market—look for a professional. Do not make the mistake of saying, “I\u0026rsquo;ll see how it goes. I\u0026rsquo;ll give it a go,” because you will regret it.\nThe Australian market, especially here in Sydney, is small. Once we start putting our names out there, it\u0026rsquo;s our reputation. You will be known as James; I will be known as Juliana. People will talk about you as you grow and develop your career. If you\u0026rsquo;re a specialist in your area and understand what these people are looking for, you\u0026rsquo;re definitely going to have a very successful career. But if your approach is, “I\u0026rsquo;ll see what happens,” you\u0026rsquo;re wasting time and burning your cards, right? You\u0026rsquo;re not creating the credibility you should, especially when you\u0026rsquo;re entering the market as a graduate.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so via the links in the show notes. The Graduate Theory newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.\nBut without further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get back into it.\nCommon Problems with Professional Applications # James: You mentioned CVs and résumés. I\u0026rsquo;d love to get into the weeds and talk about the approaches you bring to these documents, because they\u0026rsquo;re obviously quite important. Without a good set-up here, you won\u0026rsquo;t get to the interview; you\u0026rsquo;ll be knocked out in the first round. What are some common mistakes you see with these types of documents that you need to fix straight away?\nJuliana: The structure of the CV is extremely important. Here in Australia, as I mentioned before, I\u0026rsquo;ve worked in different areas of career development, recruitment and guiding professionals.\nEach company uses its CRM database for a different purpose. If you\u0026rsquo;re talking about recruitment agencies and dealing with a recruiter, these people will use a type of CRM to collect that CV and develop their database. Large organisations with a recruitment area will have a different type of CRM. A consulting business will have another type.\nA recruitment agency is much more specialised because that\u0026rsquo;s what they do: they map the entire market and highlight talent to their clients. A consulting business won\u0026rsquo;t necessarily do the same because it\u0026rsquo;s dealing with internal clients. Similarly, an internal recruitment team in a large organisation won\u0026rsquo;t necessarily have the same CRM because it works internally.\nWhy am I telling you all this? A lot of people get caught up in the illusion because they do not understand what the market is looking for. They create, let\u0026rsquo;s say, a CV in Canva. If you\u0026rsquo;re in UX design or a very alternative area of work, fair enough. But if you\u0026rsquo;re going into the corporate world and adding lots of tables, photos and different elements, once that CV is uploaded into the system, the information becomes confused and messed up.\nMost of the time, these people do not get called for future opportunities, not just the one they applied for. The intention when you\u0026rsquo;re applying for a job inside a large organisation is to be in its database and be called later, further down the track. You want people to identify your skills when they search, but if your CV has lots of tables and photos, it\u0026rsquo;s too fancy: too much quantity and not much quality.\nYou create an illusion for yourself and think, “Look, I\u0026rsquo;ve made this amazing CV on Canva, and I never get called.” Then you work with a professional who develops a CV tailored to your area, what you\u0026rsquo;re looking to achieve, your personality and the specific skills the market is looking for. The person sends out one CV and gets 10 interviews. That\u0026rsquo;s how it works.\nAgain, if you do not have the knowledge, do not waste your time on the illusion that you\u0026rsquo;ll see what happens, because “we\u0026rsquo;ll see what happens” will pull you behind, not ahead. It\u0026rsquo;s very interesting when you\u0026rsquo;re dealing with different personalities, because people say, “I can\u0026rsquo;t believe it\u0026rsquo;s happening.” But there is a technique behind it, right? It\u0026rsquo;s not just putting in a photo, a little balloon or whatever.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve seen that too. I don\u0026rsquo;t know the word used to describe it, but it\u0026rsquo;s software that you put your résumé into. It can\u0026rsquo;t properly read things like tables and images. I think it might be called an ATS, where it tries to categorise you and extract your skills from your résumé. It can\u0026rsquo;t really do that if you have those elements.\nJuliana: Exactly right. It\u0026rsquo;s very important.\nAre cover letters less common? # James: What about the cover letter? Is there anything similar there? Are cover letters really common, or have they become less common? I feel like I\u0026rsquo;m seeing them less often. I\u0026rsquo;d love to hear your thoughts and what someone could do to write a good one.\nJuliana: In my experience, jobs that ask for a cover letter are usually very specific. If I\u0026rsquo;m not looking for someone specific, or I just want to know who is available in the market, I usually don\u0026rsquo;t ask for one because I want a flow of potential candidates coming to my inbox. But if I want to target a particular market, type of individual or set of skills, I will potentially ask for a cover letter because it will help my search.\nRather than analysing three or four pages of a CV, I\u0026rsquo;m going to read the cover letter. In that cover letter, the candidate must tell me why he\u0026rsquo;s suitable for that job and which skills he has that match the job description. Then I will naturally have an interest in interviewing this person or reading that CV.\nThink about the cover letter as the book\u0026rsquo;s front cover. When you\u0026rsquo;re in a library or bookshop, you\u0026rsquo;re going to say, “Maybe this book is good. I don\u0026rsquo;t know. Let me have a quick look.” Then you think, “Awesome, it\u0026rsquo;s everything I want to read about.” What do you do? You buy the book, then you read it. The cover letter works similarly. You\u0026rsquo;re going to read it and think, “Great, that\u0026rsquo;s a potential candidate. Let me see more.” Then you\u0026rsquo;re going to go into detail in the CV.\nObviously, that\u0026rsquo;s different for each company. Recruitment agencies don\u0026rsquo;t usually ask for a cover letter because the candidates are the product, right? They need to map the market and become specialists in it, so they need to understand who is there. But large companies recruiting for specific projects will ask for one.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting way to put it. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t thought about it like that.\nJuliana: Have you had that experience with cover letters? Have you had to write one?\nJames: Most of the recent jobs I applied for were graduate roles, probably two years ago now. That was the last big batch of applications I did. I maybe wrote a couple of cover letters, but the vast majority of graduate roles were very general. Sometimes, the only requirement was to play some of those games intended to test skills, though I don\u0026rsquo;t know exactly which ones.\nThat was the main thing. I would say maybe 10 per cent of the jobs required a cover letter, so it really wasn\u0026rsquo;t that many at all.\nJuliana: That\u0026rsquo;s true. If you\u0026rsquo;re going for a graduate job or graduate role, they want to see different aspects of your personality. They want to see whether you\u0026rsquo;ve perhaps done volunteer work and what your attitude is towards starting your career. It\u0026rsquo;s a completely different approach from dealing with a professional who has been in the market for two, three, four years or more.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting way to look at it. I like it.\nJuliana: You\u0026rsquo;re listening to me and thinking about your experience: “Okay, I\u0026rsquo;ve done that. No, I haven\u0026rsquo;t. Cool. It makes sense.”\nUndervalued Parts of the Application Process # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve seen a lot of people apply for roles and helped them do that. What is one area of the process that you think people underappreciate or underestimate? Is there a particular aspect they don\u0026rsquo;t realise the value of fixing?\nJuliana: Very good question. I like that. Something I think people underestimate is networking. People don\u0026rsquo;t really see the value in networking, but once you\u0026rsquo;ve been in this market for a little while, you will understand that it\u0026rsquo;s not only about what you know, but who you know.\nIf you know the right people, they will give you a shortcut through the process. They will guide and mentor you towards your goals. They\u0026rsquo;re connected with other people, who will connect you to still more people. That\u0026rsquo;s when you start creating your network and getting into the market you\u0026rsquo;re looking to join.\nTo network, you need to get out of your comfort zone. You need to research events and happy hours. Before the pandemic, there were a lot of happy-hour networking events or Thursday 5.00 pm beers somewhere for particular professionals—IT professionals or marketing professionals, for example. At one of those networking events, you can meet five or 10 people who will lead you to another 10 or 20, and the story goes on.\nPeople don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily focus on networking, but it\u0026rsquo;s extremely important. If you don\u0026rsquo;t know the important people in the market, how are you going to go about it? You will develop your skills further, no worries, but it will be a little slower. If you know the right people, you\u0026rsquo;ll get there a little faster. With some coaching and mentoring, you can stand out from the crowd for sure.\nJames: I totally agree. Everyone knows people who get jobs through their network, and it\u0026rsquo;s almost seen as, “They\u0026rsquo;re so lucky. This person they know just gave them a job,” or whatever. But you can flip that and think, “Is there anyone in my network, or anyone I can meet, who can give me that kind of opportunity as well?”\nJuliana: Totally. I\u0026rsquo;ve been with New Mind Consulting since 2020 and working in the Australian market for 13 years. My clients from the corporate world and the clients I have at New Mind Consulting for one-on-one sessions or workshops know the quality of the work and the way I operate.\nIf you go to my LinkedIn profile, you\u0026rsquo;re going to see all the recommendations I have there. That\u0026rsquo;s a shortlist ready to go. All those people are extremely well qualified, but they\u0026rsquo;ve also gone through the coaching process: what this market expects, how to position themselves, how to present a CV, cover letter and LinkedIn profile, and how to verbalise their ideas and create credibility through an interview process.\nAll of this helps. It\u0026rsquo;s very interesting when clients leave a recommendation on my profile. They come back and say, “Thank you so much. I left you a recommendation. So-and-so got in touch with me, and I\u0026rsquo;m already in an interview.” Then the client calls me and says, “Juliana, by the way, I\u0026rsquo;m hiring so-and-so.” Wonderful, right?\nThe end result of the work you do is extremely rewarding. People call you afterwards and say, “Look, I\u0026rsquo;ve got a job. By the way, the communication skills we were working on in my life-coaching sessions are now affecting my career, because I\u0026rsquo;m dealing with my manager in the same way I had to communicate with my wife, perhaps.” Again, everything is interlinked: life and career. But going back to your question, networking helps you.\nSimilar traits in successful job applicants # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love to go into some more general career questions. You\u0026rsquo;ve seen a lot of people go from being a jobseeker to having a job, then progress into someone who flourishes in the workplace. What traits allow people to succeed? Are any traits common among people who seem to find it super easy, get their jobs easily and go on to do amazing things?\nJuliana: Unfortunately, “super easy” doesn\u0026rsquo;t really exist. I\u0026rsquo;m thinking about my experience when I first arrived in Australia. I always knew my potential, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t know anything about Australia, especially the market.\nWhen I started, I did what the majority of people do: “Let me see what happens. I believe in my potential. I know I\u0026rsquo;m going to get an interview. I know I\u0026rsquo;m going to get a job.” Eventually, I got to a point where I thought, “Hang on a minute. There is something I\u0026rsquo;m missing. What is it?” Then I started looking for guidance.\nI worked with professionals in the market who coached me throughout the process and did the job I do nowadays. It became a little easier to create credibility because I knew what people expected from me, not because I had done something out of this world.\nI believe that when you\u0026rsquo;re looking to enter the Australian market, if you know how to set up your CV, cover letter and LinkedIn profile, you know how to create credibility through those documents. The interview uses pretty much the same approach, but it is the verbalisation of what created that credibility.\nOnce you understand that, it\u0026rsquo;s much easier to pass to the second stage of the interview and get an offer. If you don\u0026rsquo;t, you might answer in a way that people aren\u0026rsquo;t expecting, and that\u0026rsquo;s when you fail. But you don\u0026rsquo;t know that because you haven\u0026rsquo;t had a professional guiding you through it. Then you\u0026rsquo;re going to think, “Maybe my CV isn\u0026rsquo;t good,” or blame something else. The reality is that it\u0026rsquo;s all about how you verbalise your ideas and create credibility.\nYou need to give your employer a reason to hire you. What can you do for my business? How are you going to add value to my company? What skills can you bring to the table?\nYou might say, “Juliana, but I\u0026rsquo;m a graduate. I haven\u0026rsquo;t worked. I don\u0026rsquo;t have any experience in a corporate or paid job.” No problem. You can do volunteer or unpaid work. You can show your potential employer that you have the attitude to get out of your comfort zone, that you\u0026rsquo;re meeting people in the market and understand what they\u0026rsquo;re looking for, that you\u0026rsquo;ve researched the company\u0026rsquo;s website, and that you\u0026rsquo;ve connected on LinkedIn with people from the company.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s more about developing your self-knowledge and the life side, then adding that to your career challenges. It\u0026rsquo;s much easier—I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t say easier, because I don\u0026rsquo;t like that word. Nothing is really easy. You need to work for everything you want to achieve. But once you\u0026rsquo;re solid in that part of life, your career flows, and vice versa.\nMy advice would be to look for someone who can help you, so you\u0026rsquo;ll be better guided and will definitely achieve your results. There is no way you won\u0026rsquo;t. If I arrived here with no English and no idea, and I\u0026rsquo;ve been building and working hard all these years—if I got there, anyone can get there, right?\nBut you need to work hard. You need to deal with frustrations and a lot of different things to get to the point where you say, “Cool, I know what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. Great, I\u0026rsquo;m ready to go for this.”\nJames: I totally agree about getting help. Finding someone or something to help you understand the process and work out what you need to do—whether that\u0026rsquo;s reading something, taking a course or finding a mentor like you—can save you a lot of time compared with trying to work it out yourself.\nJuliana: Exactly. That involves all the personal aspects, right? You need determination, you need to be able to adapt and you need to back up what you\u0026rsquo;re saying. You go into the interview and say, “Look, I can do this, this and that.” You get the job, and then people realise, “But you\u0026rsquo;re not well prepared.”\nThen you create an illusion. If you do not look for development in those areas, you\u0026rsquo;re just going to become a victim of the system, right? You say, “All my bosses are like this. All the jobs I go to are like this. All the people I work for are like this.” It\u0026rsquo;s not really about that. It\u0026rsquo;s about understanding where the gap is, working hard to address it and improving that part of your life.\nThe purpose of New Mind Consulting is to build the best version of yourself, because you will build it. It\u0026rsquo;s a process. You\u0026rsquo;re building every day. It\u0026rsquo;s not, “Boom, I\u0026rsquo;ve done a course. I\u0026rsquo;m ready to go.” I wish it were, and I\u0026rsquo;m sure you do too.\nJuliana\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question for you, Juliana. A lot of the audience are graduates or early-career people looking to start their careers in the right manner. Thinking about your journey, if you could wind back the clock to when you first graduated from uni and went out into the world of work, knowing what you know now and all the things you teach, what advice would you give yourself?\nJuliana: Going back to my first point, look for someone who will guide you and give you the full picture, because it\u0026rsquo;s so much easier when you know where you\u0026rsquo;re going. I say this because I\u0026rsquo;ve gone through that process myself here in Australia. I tried a couple of times to get into the market with the knowledge I had back in the day. I was 23 or 24 years old, and I wasn\u0026rsquo;t getting anywhere.\nOnce I hired someone, I said, “Look, this is where I come from. This is the experience I have so far. This is where I want to go, and this is what I would like to achieve. How can I prepare to face the challenge and actually get there?”\n“Okay, we\u0026rsquo;re going to have to work on your CV, cover letter and LinkedIn profile. We\u0026rsquo;re going to have to work on a mock interview. What\u0026rsquo;s your interview style?” The interview is one of the crucial points here, right? The majority of people think, “Do you have a questionnaire that I can look at, or do you have a video on YouTube?”\nNot really, because the worst thing you can do in an interview process is memorise questions and answers. When you\u0026rsquo;re in an interview, you will know more or less what they\u0026rsquo;re going to ask you. But more than that, you need to build your thought process. You need to learn how to build it because, if the interviewer asks you something outside your preparation, you\u0026rsquo;re going to go blank. You\u0026rsquo;ll just answer whatever comes to mind.\nAfter all the excitement dies down, you\u0026rsquo;ll think, “I shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have answered that. I didn\u0026rsquo;t prepare for that. The question I memorised wasn\u0026rsquo;t asked.” It isn\u0026rsquo;t about memorising; it\u0026rsquo;s about learning how to create credibility through your thought process. How do you build that thought process? How do you tell your story? That also comes through mentorship.\nIf you know what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, good on you. Get yourself ready, go for it and all the best of luck. If you don\u0026rsquo;t know, or if you\u0026rsquo;re in doubt, search for a professional—someone who will clear the road for you so you can drive through and get to your final destination.\nSounds easy, doesn\u0026rsquo;t it?\nWhere to find Juliana # James: That sounds easy. Perfect. Thanks so much for your time today, Juliana. Where can listeners find out more about you and the things you do?\nJuliana: I\u0026rsquo;ve got an Instagram page, @newmindconsulting. I also have a website, newmindconsulting.com, and my LinkedIn page is Juliana Owen. You\u0026rsquo;ll find me there as well. Anyone looking for help to build the best version of themselves, just get in touch. It would be a pleasure to help.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;ll have links to all that in the show notes. Thanks so much for coming on the show.\nJuliana: Nice one. Thank you so much for your time as well. It was a pleasure.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 38\n","date":"11 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/38-juliana-owen/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 38\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Juliana Owen | On Building Your Career in the Australian Job Market","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Welcome to the 37th episode of Graduate Theory.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been a fantastic journey so far. The Graduate Theory archives now hold some seriously cool conversations with high-achievers across Australia.\nThis episode brings them all together.\nToday, we\u0026rsquo;ve compiled some of the best segments from the entire Graduate Theory catalogue. These are the moments that listeners have loved, and those that have created a lasting impact.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter. Do it now 👇\nSubscribe Now\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Purpose # Something I\u0026rsquo;ve been reflecting on is the idea of purpose.\nDo we all have a purpose? How do we find it?\nOne of the best ways to have a fulfilling career is to be very clear on what exactly you want your life to look like, and then seek opportunities that lead to that outcome.\nBut what do we want our lives to look like?\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a difficult question to answer. How do we know what is the right thing?\nLidia and Josh both shared great insights into answering this question.\nLidia shares that our purpose changes over time. What we want our lives to look like is not fixed. Michael Jordan is no longer a basketball player.\nWith this in mind, starting somewhere is better than starting nowhere. We accept that this place for our lives will change over time.\nJosh shares another great way of approaching this. Look at what problems exist in the world and find ways to solve them. What problems do you see that you have the expertise and interest in solving? Making the world a better place is a great way to start.\nWork Life Balance # Cheran and Gilly both shared similar principles in their episodes.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t subscribe to what society says by default. Whether it\u0026rsquo;s an example like work-life balance or something else, it\u0026rsquo;s up to you to decide what to make of you life.\nPeople aren\u0026rsquo;t thinking about you as much as you think. You are free to decide things for yourself.\nMaking your own independent decisions on things like work-life balance and approaches to career will set you up well.\nJust like finding your purpose, things that you decide for yourself and things that you will stick to and utilise forever.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Intro\n01:14 Lidia Ranieri\n17:25 Adam Geha\n25:33 Dan Brockwell\n35:34 Michael Gill\n42:35 Cheran Ketheesuran\n47:04 Lacey Filipich\n54:58 Josh Farr\n58:43 Outro\n","date":"4 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/37-on-the-best-of-graduate-theory/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Welcome to the 37th episode of Graduate Theory.\nIt’s been a fantastic journey so far. The Graduate Theory archives now hold some seriously cool conversations with high-achievers across Australia.\n","title":"On The Best Of Graduate Theory","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 37\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a compilation of many different episodes that we\u0026rsquo;ve had in the past on Graduate Theory.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve gone back through the archives and thought about which parts and segments of Graduate Theory really resonated with me, and which I thought were some of the best content on the show. I\u0026rsquo;ve found the pieces that I think are really, really special and put them into this one episode.\nToday, we\u0026rsquo;ve got seven different people speaking. There\u0026rsquo;s some serious, serious wisdom in this episode. It features some of the best content that has appeared on Graduate Theory over the last few months, and I\u0026rsquo;m really excited to share it all with you in one place.\nIf you want to connect with the podcast further and get more involved, you should definitely subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter. It includes content and summaries from every previously released episode. Every single week, I give you my thoughts and lessons from that week\u0026rsquo;s episode.\nDefinitely subscribe before we start. Without further ado, we\u0026rsquo;re going to hear from episode seven with Lidia Ranieri.\nLidia Ranieri # James: Lidia is a former managing director at Goldman Sachs and currently works in her practice, On Purpose, to help clients identify, align with and act on purpose in their pursuit of excellence.\nHere\u0026rsquo;s our conversation about how you can find your purpose.\nOne thing I want to ask, following on from that, is whether there are any steps you would take to find your purpose. It\u0026rsquo;s difficult, but how can we find it?\nLidia: When I work with people to explore this, I use visual cues. I once had to give a whole presentation on this topic and put together slides for it. In coaching sessions, I encourage clients to go to a place where they can visualise this for themselves.\nI put up a whole heap of images I\u0026rsquo;d found of children, probably around four or five years old. One is dressed as a doctor, one as a superhero and another as a little scientist in a science lab. Another is standing on a stage singing, while others are getting ready in their dance clothes.\nI put up these images because, when we go back and unravel it, purpose is very strongly linked to two key things. The first is our strengths. We love to use our strengths. They\u0026rsquo;re our God-given talents; they\u0026rsquo;re innate. When we give them expression, it feels really, really good.\nIt feels natural. It feels like we\u0026rsquo;re doing the right thing. Purpose is linked to strengths and values: what\u0026rsquo;s important to us and what we value. Why does one person value doing a certain thing while another person values something else? It all leads into this intricate internal system that has this knowing.\nWhen I put up those images, or encourage clients to come up with their own, I invite them to think about a time when they might have had these images for themselves. Take, for example, the child standing on stage. The point of that image and metaphor is not necessarily, \u0026ldquo;I want to be a singer, actor or performer.\u0026rdquo;\nIt may be, but it\u0026rsquo;s an indicator that something within you really enjoys expressing itself to an audience. You may need to find a role that allows you to give a lot of presentations, because when you\u0026rsquo;re presenting, you feel on, energised and vital. You love seeing the responses from the people sitting in the room where you\u0026rsquo;re giving your performance.\nFor others, it may be the child in the lab coat. They may have curiosity as this burning feeling within them, and they need to work in a way that ignites that curiosity about the world. Those inroads really link to finding our purpose.\nChildhood is a really fertile place to do some of this exploration because, when we see children at play, they very naturally enter what we call the flow state. This has been studied by psychologists. One of the most renowned researchers and psychologists in this area was a gentleman called Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, and he did a lot of research. Various other psychologists have joined this area of academic exploration.\nWhat they\u0026rsquo;ve found is that, when we enter a flow state, we\u0026rsquo;re doing something that is truly engaging but just challenging enough. When we get to that place, we can do it for a very long time. Time doesn\u0026rsquo;t even occur to us, so we enter a kind of timelessness. We\u0026rsquo;re very focused on the task and not on ourselves.\nThe flow state is the state we want high-performing athletes and high-functioning corporate executives to enter, but you can only enter it when the activity genuinely engages you. That\u0026rsquo;s called having intrinsic motivation around the activity.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why childhood is such an interesting place to start exploring this. We don\u0026rsquo;t have any of those statements—\u0026ldquo;I should\u0026rdquo;, \u0026ldquo;I ought to\u0026rdquo;, \u0026ldquo;everyone says I must\u0026rdquo;—or all that other externalised conditioning that creates beliefs within us. We are just who we are. It enables us to look back and say, \u0026ldquo;I really loved doing that.\u0026rdquo;\nOf course, there are then practicalities such as earning a decent income, so we need to map some real-world considerations over those interior motivational states. But it\u0026rsquo;s a really good place to start finding purpose.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard something similar from friends who went down one path and then changed direction. It was a process of winding back their lives to the stage where they made a key decision—perhaps what to study or which subjects to pick in high school—then returning to that crossroads and reassessing whether it was the right choice. Even though you have to wind back a little, you can start going somewhere else that may resonate more with you.\nLidia: I think that\u0026rsquo;s right. Life affords us so many opportunities to come to crossroads at various stages, and they present themselves at different times for different people. Those crossroads emerge because we\u0026rsquo;re being invited to answer the question, \u0026ldquo;What is it that I really want to do?\u0026rdquo;\nWe think about it as, \u0026ldquo;What do I want to do? Do I want to take this subject or that subject, this course or that course, this job or that job?\u0026rdquo; But if you dig beneath the surface, the deeper question is, \u0026ldquo;What part of me needs expression here? What part of me do I want to give expression to in some outer-world context where I\u0026rsquo;m applying myself every day?\u0026rdquo;\nKnowing your strengths and values can help you navigate those decisions so that you\u0026rsquo;re more closely aligned with giving yourself that expression. From a psychological standpoint, that\u0026rsquo;s what leads to fulfilment, life satisfaction and happiness.\nJames: Do you think it\u0026rsquo;s possible to find your purpose holistically, or is it something you\u0026rsquo;re always getting closer to—a moving target that may change over time? You try to get closer and closer, but perhaps you never really reach it. I know stories of people, and I\u0026rsquo;ve experienced this myself, where you think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to find my purpose and do this. It feels good, so I\u0026rsquo;ll keep going—but maybe it\u0026rsquo;s not quite right.\u0026rdquo;\nDo you ever reach a stage where you can say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve found exactly what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do. This is it. I finally made it\u0026rdquo;? Or is it always a moving target where you\u0026rsquo;re getting closer to it and finding your way?\nLidia: I think we burden ourselves with the idea that there is one purpose. Some amazing individuals are born to a purpose. A great sportsperson is always an easy way to understand this.\nYou might think that Michael Jordan was born to the purpose of being one of the best basketball players the world has ever seen. But that would rob him of having any purpose now, because he isn\u0026rsquo;t doing that anymore. I like to think that we have a purpose, and it may be a staged experience.\nMy purpose in this role, at this particular time, may simply be an apprenticeship. I\u0026rsquo;m in a learning mode. That\u0026rsquo;s my purpose right now: I\u0026rsquo;m in a skill-acquisition mode. That mode needs to be aligned with where I have a natural interest and can develop real competency, because then I feel good about myself.\nI need to be doing something where I can see myself improving; otherwise, I get demotivated. Purpose can mean that, for this moment in time, this is the right place and the right role for me, as long as I\u0026rsquo;m giving the fullest expression to things that make me feel vitalised and engaged. When that has run its course, for reasons we\u0026rsquo;ve all experienced but can\u0026rsquo;t explain, your interest suddenly starts to wane.\nYou think, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s just not doing it for me any more. I\u0026rsquo;m just not that interested.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a sign that it\u0026rsquo;s time to move into another phase. It\u0026rsquo;s still your purpose because, as you say, you never get there. What is \u0026ldquo;there\u0026rdquo;? It\u0026rsquo;s just a journey of giving yourself the opportunity to express yourself to your fullest capacity and at the highest functioning level you can.\nSome phases involve learning. Others might involve working on something to prepare it for the next stage. They\u0026rsquo;re like Lego blocks: they build on each other. You may then have a peak experience that lasts for a number of years, as Michael Jordan did. It may be something that is acclaimed, revered or recognised.\nBut maybe it doesn\u0026rsquo;t receive outward recognition. Maybe it\u0026rsquo;s simply your own experience of it as a golden era. Then it changes and your purpose moves into something else. Our purpose is interwoven through a journey in which our wisdom and experience change.\nOur stage of life also determines what we\u0026rsquo;re more attuned to. I like to help people by unburdening them of the idea that there\u0026rsquo;s one thing. There are many paths, and they may all lead to what I think everyone wants: that peak expression, that golden moment, and sustaining it.\nThere are ways to try to ensure that you sustain it. When I talk to executives about peak performance, there\u0026rsquo;s an idea that it\u0026rsquo;s marked by certain externally recognised success factors. That can be a component of it, but in truth, peak performance is some level of optimised functioning.\nTo arrive at your most optimised level of functioning, we\u0026rsquo;re assuming that you\u0026rsquo;re competent and good at what you\u0026rsquo;re doing. You have to work to the point where you\u0026rsquo;ve established that. But to sustain really highly optimised functioning, we can\u0026rsquo;t be constantly peaking. Performance curves are like a sloped hill: they go up gradually and then drop off really sharply.\nAt the top of the curve is peak performance, so you\u0026rsquo;re building up to it. Just after peak performance, there\u0026rsquo;s a little extra on the other edge of the hill before you slope down. That\u0026rsquo;s your stretch zone. If you don\u0026rsquo;t step back from peak performance and stretch, and go back down the hill towards the recuperation zone, you can\u0026rsquo;t sustain peak performance.\nThe other side of the slope after stretch is overwhelm. Performance drops off very rapidly and sharply, leading to exhaustion, burnout, health issues or some kind of physical, mental, emotional or spiritual crisis, because we can\u0026rsquo;t sustain ourselves at those peaks. Getting to our purpose and sustaining ourselves in these peak moments is like a dance: we go there and taste it, but sometimes we have to go back down the hill.\nIn the context of purpose, we have these big moments. We\u0026rsquo;re on fire and everything is going our way. We\u0026rsquo;re winning deals, our business is growing and we\u0026rsquo;re usually working long hours, but it\u0026rsquo;s a pleasure. We might work weekends because we\u0026rsquo;re engaged in a creative process and loving it.\nBut after whatever it is peaks in us, in the activity, in the event or in something being delivered, we have to step back. That\u0026rsquo;s still our purpose. Our purpose can still be in that recuperation zone, where it doesn\u0026rsquo;t seem as \u0026ldquo;on\u0026rdquo;, because we\u0026rsquo;re getting ready to re-enter.\nIt will be a different set of circumstances, people and challenges, but it still reignites that fire. If we don\u0026rsquo;t step back, we can lose it—not our purpose, but our ability to engage with it.\nAdam Geha # James: The second segment today is from episode 20 with Adam Geha. Adam is the CEO and co-founder of EG, a data-driven investment manager and developer with over $5 billion of assets under management. This is a fantastic episode, and this section is our conversation about boundaries around your time and time management.\nI\u0026rsquo;m picking up a lot from your really strong boundaries around your time. Something has to be quite valuable to get through that barrier, and I think that\u0026rsquo;s really important.\nAdam: It\u0026rsquo;s not rude to police your time.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to let your listeners know that policing the boundaries of your time is actually an act of kindness to them, to you and to the business. Just don\u0026rsquo;t be gruff or rude about it. I try always to be soft in delivery but hard on content. If people don\u0026rsquo;t get the sense that your time is a super-valuable commodity, you\u0026rsquo;re sending the wrong signal to the world.\nThey should immediately feel that, when they\u0026rsquo;re handling your time, they\u0026rsquo;re handling something super valuable. When a meeting\u0026rsquo;s content ends early, I ask, \u0026ldquo;Are we finished? Can I leave now?\u0026rdquo; Just because it\u0026rsquo;s a half-hour meeting, if we\u0026rsquo;ve done it in 15 minutes, fantastic. I can leave 15 minutes early and make a couple of phone calls.\nWhen my wife calls me, I almost always answer, or I tell her that I\u0026rsquo;ll call her back shortly. I let her know I\u0026rsquo;m in a meeting and ask whether it\u0026rsquo;s important. During business hours, my wife never has a relaxed conversation with me because I\u0026rsquo;m sending her the signal that I\u0026rsquo;m on the field, playing in the World Cup. I don\u0026rsquo;t have time for distractions.\nIf it\u0026rsquo;s important, tell me what it is. If not, let\u0026rsquo;s wait until after the game, when I\u0026rsquo;ve got the headspace, and that\u0026rsquo;s with my wife. But I\u0026rsquo;ll always take a call from my mum because she calls me very irregularly, and I worry that she needs my help or is in a bad spot.\nYou do need to take certain calls, but you need to be very clear with everyone who treats with your time that they\u0026rsquo;re dealing with a valuable commodity.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great piece of advice. I like how what you said reflects how you value your time and how you let other people respect it. I think the way the two intertwine is really, really powerful.\nI was recently going through your LinkedIn and looking at all the wonderful posts you have there. One was about how the universe is a fractal, and how looking at one day is almost like looking at your whole year or your whole life.\nI thought that was really profound and fascinating. I can link it in the show notes so people can read it. Do you remember this post? What was the inspiration behind it?\nAdam: Of course I do. I\u0026rsquo;m mystically inclined, so I\u0026rsquo;m very interested in transcendental meditation and the union one gets in the deeper realisation that we are part of something far greater. I very much feel that my life is part of a broader tapestry of human evolution as a species towards a higher consciousness.\nI see myself as part of a great adventure of raising human consciousness to a level where it feels centredness, inner peace, compassion and non-judgement. From that context, I\u0026rsquo;m very fascinated with Eastern mysticism, which has lots of repetitive patterns. For example, the thousand-petalled lotus is fractal.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a vision you get in deep meditation, and it signifies a feeling of union with the greater stream of consciousness, which is manifested creation. I\u0026rsquo;m an admirer of trees and clouds, and I take lots and lots of photos of them. They\u0026rsquo;re epiphanies for me.\nEspecially when I\u0026rsquo;m exercising in the morning—when I\u0026rsquo;m cycling—I\u0026rsquo;ll pause if I see a beautiful pattern of clouds or a beautiful tree. I\u0026rsquo;ll take detailed photos. Both clouds and trees are fractal. They\u0026rsquo;re a symbol of how the universe is constructed: from the little comes the big. It\u0026rsquo;s the pattern of the universe.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s absolutely the case that, if you live your day disciplined in thought and action, so too will your year be, and so too will your life be. Always be faithful with the little, because from the little comes the big.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really profound and great advice. You\u0026rsquo;ve been talking about your executive assistant, and perhaps that\u0026rsquo;s something that\u0026rsquo;s only come into your life relatively recently. How has your time management changed over time? Some people might not have that support, so I\u0026rsquo;m curious how things have changed for you.\nAdam: It changes very much as you get older and more senior, with greater responsibilities.\nTo give you an idea, I\u0026rsquo;m managing eight companies in some capacity. I have two investments on my personal account that are companies, and I\u0026rsquo;m involved in three charitable foundations. There are 13 organisations to which I make a meaningful contribution at a strategic level.\nThere are also a couple to which I make a meaningful contribution at an operational level. I\u0026rsquo;m always busy now. I don\u0026rsquo;t have the luxury of not thinking about one of those 13 things when I have a spare moment, because I know I can add value. It\u0026rsquo;s a really interesting life, but I obviously need to learn how to put boundaries on it so that my wife and children also get access to me, and vice versa.\nYou definitely revere time more as you get more senior. I would love to say to your young listeners: treat time as though it is super precious while you\u0026rsquo;re 23, because you\u0026rsquo;ll most certainly treat it as super precious when you\u0026rsquo;re my age and you\u0026rsquo;re 50.\nWhy not commence that practice, knowing that it will become a reality in your life? Bring it in early, make it part of your life today and you\u0026rsquo;ll get so much more. I just wish I had the disciplines I have now when I was 23. By the way, I\u0026rsquo;ve had an EA fully dedicated to me for about 10 years.\nShe\u0026rsquo;s in Manila, so she costs me a fraction of what it would cost to hire an Australian executive assistant. I could actually afford to have two or three in Manila. I might well get a second executive assistant once I feel the first one\u0026rsquo;s workload is maxed out. It\u0026rsquo;s every bit worth the investment.\nAs soon as you can afford an executive assistant, whether or not your business pays for it, you should invest in one because that person is going to enable you to perform. I\u0026rsquo;m able to produce literally two or three times the output of my 35-year-old self. What\u0026rsquo;s that worth? Millions of dollars.\nDan Brockwell # James: The third section today comes from episode 15 with Dan Brockwell. Dan is the co-founder and chief meme officer at Earlywork. There are now over 3,000 people in the community. He\u0026rsquo;s previously worked at Uber, Atlassian and a bunch of other places. Dan is a huge legend. Here\u0026rsquo;s our conversation about how you can get job offers without applying through the traditional process.\nJames: You mentioned right at the start of your last answer that you reached out to a company cold and got a job there. I really want to speak more about this because almost no one does it. People I now speak to at companies say, \u0026ldquo;This is actually kind of a good idea.\u0026rdquo;\nYou can reach out to people cold or meet people who work at the company where you want to work. I\u0026rsquo;m curious about your experience doing this outside the traditional way of getting a job. You aren\u0026rsquo;t waiting for the company to list a job and then applying alongside 50, 100 or thousands of other people.\nInstead, you\u0026rsquo;re going in, putting more eggs in their basket and connecting with the people who work there. I\u0026rsquo;d love to hear about your experience and process. Maybe you know other people who\u0026rsquo;ve done something similar. I\u0026rsquo;m really interested to hear your thoughts.\nDan: Job listings are just the tip of the iceberg in the job market. People see them and think, \u0026ldquo;Okay, I\u0026rsquo;ll apply for those,\u0026rdquo; then sit and hope for the best. In reality, startups are always growing, raising money and hiring.\nSo many things happen through referrals, ad hoc introductions or other hidden job opportunities. If you want to work at a startup, remember that startups, by their nature, like proactive people. The best thing you can do is be proactive. Don\u0026rsquo;t wait for the job listing; make the job listing.\nI\u0026rsquo;m happy to talk through my experiences. I worked for three different startups at university. The first was a social-payments startup called Tilt. Originally, I was conceptualising an app with friends called Friends with Deficits. We were trying to track debts among friends in different currencies.\nWe did some competitive research and found Tilt. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Damn, they\u0026rsquo;ve solved it all. But they have an ambassador group at UNSW.\u0026rdquo; I emailed the country manager in Australia and said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d love to join the ambassador group.\u0026rdquo; He opened applications, I joined the group and did that for a couple of months.\nThat converted into a growth internship, leading an ambassador program with a couple of hundred students across Australia. It was a ton of fun. It came from two things: first, the proactive outreach through a cold email; and second, being part of something related to the company before actually having the role.\nAn ambassador program is a great example, but it might be a beta testers\u0026rsquo; group, doing user research or helping promote the company. There are ways to become affiliated with a company without formally being part of it.\nInternship number two was fascinating. There was a restaurant-ordering startup called Table, essentially like me\u0026amp;u or Mr Yum, where you could order on your mobile in a restaurant instead of waiting for a waiter. I saw ads for the startup on Facebook.\nThey were for a referral competition, and the company hadn\u0026rsquo;t launched yet. I thought, \u0026ldquo;This is super cool.\u0026rdquo; I spammed it across a bunch of university discussion groups and reached the top 10 in referrals within about 24 hours. Then I reached out to the chief operating officer or chief executive officer on LinkedIn.\nI said, \u0026ldquo;Hey dude, I love the problem you\u0026rsquo;re working on. It\u0026rsquo;s super, super fascinating. I\u0026rsquo;m actually interning at a startup right now, but I saw your thing and shared it with a bunch of people. I ended up reaching this referral position. If you\u0026rsquo;re open to bringing on a marketing intern, let\u0026rsquo;s have a chat.\u0026rdquo;\nI ended up meeting them at Westfield Bondi Junction. After one meeting, I worked for them for about six months. That came from two things. First, cold LinkedIn DMs are amazing. With cold LinkedIn DMs, the key is \u0026ldquo;who, why, what\u0026rdquo;: who are you, why are you reaching out and what\u0026rsquo;s in it for them?\nExplain who you are: perhaps you\u0026rsquo;re a student majoring in this and interning at that place. Explain why you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out: you came across them and really liked XYZ about them. Then explain what\u0026rsquo;s in it for them. Ask, \u0026ldquo;Are you open to taking on an intern?\u0026rdquo; Don\u0026rsquo;t ask whether they\u0026rsquo;re currently hiring or seeking an intern. Just ask whether they\u0026rsquo;re open, because no one wants to be closed.\nThey might not have a job listing, but when you ask whether they\u0026rsquo;re open to an intern, they may say, \u0026ldquo;Maybe—let\u0026rsquo;s have a chat.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s a good way to get your foot in the door.\nThe other thing is adding value before you\u0026rsquo;ve even reached out. I reached out after I\u0026rsquo;d shared the app with a bunch of people. That shows proactivity: the startup thinks, \u0026ldquo;If we hire this person, we won\u0026rsquo;t have to wait to give them instructions. They\u0026rsquo;ll go and do things that help the company.\u0026rdquo;\nThe final example is interesting. There was a job listing, but it wasn\u0026rsquo;t an internship.\nIt was at a company called Ofload, an awesome road-freight logistics startup in Australia. They had a listing for a full-time operations associate. I was working at Amazon at the time, so I\u0026rsquo;d been deepening my interest in logistics, but I wanted to hop back into the startup world.\nI saw the listing and thought, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t work full-time, but I could work part-time.\u0026rdquo; I applied and messaged the chief operating officer: \u0026ldquo;Hey man, I love what you\u0026rsquo;re working on. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a background at Amazon and Uber, so I\u0026rsquo;m passionate about the logistics space. For context, I\u0026rsquo;m still wrapping up at uni. Would you be open to taking on someone part-time?\u0026rdquo;\nI had several interviews with the team and eventually they said yes. The role was meant to be full-time, but we turned it into a part-time role. I later went full-time there and worked there for about six months. It was my last role before Atlassian, and I absolutely loved it.\nThe lesson is that sometimes a job description will tell you roughly what a company wants, but they\u0026rsquo;re flexible. It might say two-plus years\u0026rsquo; experience; apply anyway. It might say full-time when you want to work part-time; apply anyway. Don\u0026rsquo;t sell yourself out of the opportunity. Have the conversation.\nIf they like you, they\u0026rsquo;ll make space for you. If it isn\u0026rsquo;t the right fit, that\u0026rsquo;s okay. Some people will say, \u0026ldquo;Sorry, we need someone full-time,\u0026rdquo; and that\u0026rsquo;s totally fine. It isn\u0026rsquo;t a personal insult. But if you talk to enough companies, opportunities will start to pop up. You can create job opportunities where you previously thought none existed.\nTo wrap up, cold LinkedIn DMs to founders and hiring managers at startups are super, super powerful. Beyond DMs on LinkedIn or Twitter, another way to stand out is to send a video résumé or pitch. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen candidates record Loom videos, which is super cool and gives a real personal flavour. You can also get people to refer you.\nA really cheeky approach is to give the company feedback on its app. You could say, \u0026ldquo;I went through and redesigned your website,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I rewrote the copy on your website.\u0026rdquo;\nBe proactive: show them what you would do to improve it, send it to them and see what happens. It\u0026rsquo;s very low-risk. You could give feedback on the product or write about the company. For example, you could write an article about how Eucalyptus has grown into a billion-dollar company using Instagram marketing.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t know whether they\u0026rsquo;re quite a unicorn yet; you\u0026rsquo;ll have to fact-check me on that one. The point is that there are so many proactive ways to stand out that aren\u0026rsquo;t a résumé or cover letter. If you want to stand out and be in a job pool of one, rather than 500, do something different.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s so important. Something like a personal brand, as we discussed earlier, becomes really, really powerful when combined with all this and you\u0026rsquo;re applying for jobs.\nDan: For sure. Coming back to that personal-brand thread, I think having a personal brand online creates luck. I\u0026rsquo;ve been lucky many, many times in my life, and I think a lot of my career success is almost just down to luck. But having a personal brand amplifies your luck: more lucky opportunities come up.\nFor instance, I was pretty active on LinkedIn. I was one of those cringe, \u0026ldquo;LinkedIn memes for career-minded teens\u0026rdquo; types of people who made posts on LinkedIn. I won an award in the business-consulting space, made a post about it and ended up getting a message from a guy working at Google. He said, \u0026ldquo;I love your profile. Would you be interested in an internship at Google?\u0026rdquo; I thought, \u0026ldquo;Sweet.\u0026rdquo;\nThis guy ended up moving to Uber a couple of months later. We lost touch and then reconnected. He said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m now at Uber, we\u0026rsquo;re bringing on interns and we\u0026rsquo;ve got one spot left. Would you be interested?\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Yeah, sure. That\u0026rsquo;s awesome.\u0026rdquo;\nI ended up getting an internship at Uber in sales purely because someone had seen my content on LinkedIn. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;m saying about having a personal brand: it\u0026rsquo;s not who you know, but who knows you and what they know you for.\nPeople encounter your content, and that\u0026rsquo;s the initial funnel into opportunities with you. It\u0026rsquo;s advertising for you, pretty much.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s exciting that everyone has this ability. There\u0026rsquo;s no wall or barrier between you and having that story you just mentioned, where people come to you with jobs. There\u0026rsquo;s absolutely nothing in the way, so it\u0026rsquo;s so valuable.\nDan: I think that\u0026rsquo;s super important from an equity, diversity, access and inclusion perspective. If you look at traditional hiring in industries like consulting, law and banking, there\u0026rsquo;s often been a perception of nepotism: you have to have friends in the firm or know people there.\nThe beauty of online content is that anyone can do it. It\u0026rsquo;s permissionless. You don\u0026rsquo;t need to know anyone; you just start creating. If you\u0026rsquo;re creating good content consistently, it will attract people who care about those things. The really important question then becomes: how do we help more young people, particularly those from underrepresented and disadvantaged backgrounds, take advantage of the power of content creation for their careers?\nI think it gives you a massive, massive advantage.\nMichael Gill # James: Section number four of today\u0026rsquo;s podcast is with Michael Gill. Michael, otherwise known as Gilly, worked at the law firm DLA Piper in Sydney for over 50 years. At different stages, he was chairman and managing partner, and he\u0026rsquo;s now a consultant. He\u0026rsquo;s been president of the Law Society of New South Wales and the Law Council of Australia, and he established the Australian Insurance Law Association.\nHe has some really interesting ideas about what it means to have a career. Here\u0026rsquo;s our conversation about work–life balance.\nMichael: Just let me pose a question, if I may. What, for you, is work? How do you think of work?\nJames: I think work is what you\u0026rsquo;re employed to do, in some sense. Whatever your job is, or doing things for an employer, would be work. You could extend that: this podcast is probably work for me as well.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s fun, so it doesn\u0026rsquo;t feel like work. Even though it isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily for anyone, it would probably still fall under that definition. But from a career perspective, I\u0026rsquo;d say that doing something for an employer is work.\nPeter: I agree with Fricker, but there are a lot of other ways you could interpret the word. This is a bit of a lawyer\u0026rsquo;s answer. I play soccer, and going to training and trying to improve could be considered a type of work.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t think it\u0026rsquo;s limited to rocking up and doing tasks for an employer. There are lots of other ways to interpret the word \u0026ldquo;work\u0026rdquo;. It depends on how you want to think about it. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether that really answers your question, Michael.\nMichael: They\u0026rsquo;re very good answers. It\u0026rsquo;s the sort of thing that will be revealed to you personally, in your own circumstances, over time. Do you prefer James or Fricker?\nJames: James is fine. Two of my close friends call me Fricker because we have a few Jameses in our friendship group, so that tends to be easier.\nMichael: I must say, I\u0026rsquo;m totally distracted by the Fricker thing.\nSo James, when you say, \u0026ldquo;Do something for your employer,\u0026rdquo; can you think of an example where you do something only for your employer? In other words, you personally have nothing invested at all.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good point. Even with a basic task such as sending emails, it\u0026rsquo;s still a mutually beneficial relationship because they\u0026rsquo;re paying you to do it. There\u0026rsquo;s something in it for you in that sense. In terms of career progression, the things you do are also driving your career forward and may make you more employable or more able to do other things for other people. Growing your skill set is beneficial to you as well.\nMichael: Skills was one of the words I was hoping you would get to, setting money aside for a moment. Even something like a simple email has the potential to develop your knowledge, skills and values—every interaction does, if you think of it that way.\nComing back to my response, in a funny sort of way, I no longer see work–life balance. Since I retired from the partnership in 2008, I\u0026rsquo;ve had more time to read and think. I now see work very much as what you do while you\u0026rsquo;re waiting for the real joys in your life. Once you\u0026rsquo;re in that space, I promise you, you\u0026rsquo;ll never think of it as work again. I won\u0026rsquo;t say 100 per cent, because I don\u0026rsquo;t want to go overboard, but when you\u0026rsquo;re largely of the view, \u0026ldquo;I really love doing this stuff. This is me.\u0026rdquo;\nI love the people I\u0026rsquo;m with. I love the opportunities it\u0026rsquo;s giving me to develop as a human being. It makes me return to my family every day as a really decent human being. I no longer have any notion of leaving work at the front door. It makes sense.\nPeter: It\u0026rsquo;s something for everybody to strive for.\nMichael: It\u0026rsquo;s not easy. It\u0026rsquo;s bloody hard, because there\u0026rsquo;s so much in life that competes with our attainment of that space. I could start to talk about some of the awful challenges your generation has around lifestyle and getting the money that enables you to live in a particular way. Then you and those closest to you become locked into the idea that, whatever else you do in life, you need a job that returns a minimum of X dollars every month.\nWhen young lawyers from big law firms come to me—this picks up your point, Peter, which has a lot of honesty to it—they say, almost as an admission of failure, \u0026ldquo;This isn\u0026rsquo;t really for me. I don\u0026rsquo;t know how to tell my parents. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a job in the M\u0026amp;A department at Freehills or DLA Piper or somewhere. I hate it. I absolutely hate it.\u0026rdquo;\nI ask them, \u0026ldquo;How important is money to you?\u0026rdquo; Because if money isn\u0026rsquo;t terribly important to you as a lawyer, the world\u0026rsquo;s your oyster.\nBut if the first thing you need to tick off is earning no less than $100,000 or $200,000 a year, or being on that slippery ladder to partnership, then you\u0026rsquo;ve closed off a huge number of options which may very well include your authentic self.\nCheran Ketheesuran # James: We\u0026rsquo;re up to number five in today\u0026rsquo;s podcast. This part comes from episode 35, the last episode, with Cheran Ketheesuran. He\u0026rsquo;s a former investment-banking intern at Macquarie, currently interns at OIF Ventures and is an incoming graduate at McKinsey. We spoke about Cheran\u0026rsquo;s lessons for people at university and his general lessons for approaching life.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question for you, Cheran. It\u0026rsquo;s a question I ask all the guests who come on the show. If you could go back to when you were first starting university and embarking on this journey of discovering the different opportunities awaiting you, what advice would you give to someone who\u0026rsquo;s now just starting their journey?\nCheran: I\u0026rsquo;d probably say three things. I have to keep it very structured as a future consultant. The first would be: do things your own way. I\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned the phrase \u0026ldquo;hedonic treadmill\u0026rdquo; a few times now, but it\u0026rsquo;s very easy to fall into. I know I\u0026rsquo;m a person who imposes this thinking on others: you see people\u0026rsquo;s LinkedIns and say, \u0026ldquo;By doing this, you got to this. By doing that, he got to there.\u0026rdquo;\nBe conscious that there are a million ways to get where you want to be. Be driven enough to pursue goals. If you\u0026rsquo;re pursuing roles, titles or whatever it is, that\u0026rsquo;s fine. But don\u0026rsquo;t be so driven that you forget, as they say, to smell the roses along the way, or forget the reason you\u0026rsquo;ve taken that journey.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not ending up in banking, but I\u0026rsquo;m still glad I spent one and a half years there because it taught me a whole skill set. If I were completely focused on the outcome, I\u0026rsquo;d think that time was a waste, which it certainly wasn\u0026rsquo;t. So, firstly, do things your own way.\nThe second thing is: nobody cares. That sounds rather flippant. What I mean is that, genuinely, nobody cares about so many of the failures we have each day. I remember seeing a visualisation on Twitter. Imagine two concentric circles: one circle with a small circle in the middle. That small circle is how much other people think about you. All the space around it is how much you think about other people thinking about you.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the reality: literally nobody cares. Everyone has their own issues and problems to sort through. It\u0026rsquo;s very liberating once you realise that, because suddenly you\u0026rsquo;re focused on your own happiness and the personal pursuit of your goals. That\u0026rsquo;s all you need in life.\nLife is already tough enough without worrying about what other people think, the impact of not getting X or not being at a particular stage in life. It\u0026rsquo;s especially easy to fall into that mental trap when you surround yourself with high-achieving academic cohorts, as at the universities you and I have attended.\nThe last thing I\u0026rsquo;d say is: life will generally be okay. This links back to \u0026ldquo;nobody cares\u0026rdquo;. I\u0026rsquo;ve said it a lot because it\u0026rsquo;s graduate season at the moment, and many students in the years below—including some I tutor at university—have been really stressed and worried about applications.\nRemember that everybody peaks at a certain time, and it won\u0026rsquo;t be at 22 for everyone. It would be rather sad if you peaked at 22. The vast majority of your listeners and the people in this community live in a time that\u0026rsquo;s better than any before it. Generally, if you work hard enough and don\u0026rsquo;t let luck impact everything in your life, you\u0026rsquo;ll be okay and eventually get where you want to go.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s no rush to reach particular goals. Just because most people seem to reach goals within a certain period doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean that you have to as well. Countless people reached their first and peak successes in their forties and fifties; Reid Hoffman is a prime example.\nThose would be my three pieces of advice: do things your own way, nobody cares, and it\u0026rsquo;ll all be okay. James, it\u0026rsquo;ll all be okay.\nLacey Filipich # James: The sixth section today comes from episode 29 with Lacey Filipich. Lacey was valedictorian at university in her chemical engineering degree, and she started work in the mining industry. Since then, she\u0026rsquo;s released a book, given TED Talks and founded her company, Money School.\nShe\u0026rsquo;s done all this stuff. It\u0026rsquo;s really, really incredible. Here\u0026rsquo;s her advice to graduates, including a great story about working for the right boss.\nIf you had to restart your career and wind back to when you were first starting work, is there anything you\u0026rsquo;d do differently in approaching your career progression or finances, knowing what you know now?\nLacey: There\u0026rsquo;s one small financial thing I didn\u0026rsquo;t understand as a graduate, but now I think, \u0026ldquo;Shoot, I should have done something about that.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen I was working for Western Mining, BHP took us over. That was in my second year as a graduate. We\u0026rsquo;d been given options with Western Mining, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t understand what options were, so I didn\u0026rsquo;t exercise them. Now that I understand, I think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s $8,000 I could have had.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen something happens financially at work—whether it\u0026rsquo;s a share plan, salary sacrificing, superannuation matching or something similar—take the time to get support if you don\u0026rsquo;t understand it, so you can make a good decision. If you get an offer from work, it\u0026rsquo;s really important to understand whether it\u0026rsquo;s right for you and take the opportunities you can. Share and option plans are often designed to keep you with the company, but they\u0026rsquo;re also a leg-up.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re an advantage, but if you sign without understanding them or ignore them because they\u0026rsquo;re too hard, you can give up a lot. My advice is to take the time to learn.\nThe other thing I would encourage people to do wasn\u0026rsquo;t something I\u0026rsquo;d even thought about at the time. You can tell from our discussion that I\u0026rsquo;m quite a forthright person, and I\u0026rsquo;ll fight for what\u0026rsquo;s right for me.\nIn my second year, I was one of seven graduates. Two of us were female, and the other five were men. We were at a site in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia, where there were 10 women in total among 300 employees. That was the reality of going into mining in a remote location back then.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s very different now. The next site I went to was 20 per cent female, rather than 10 out of 300. That first situation wasn\u0026rsquo;t normal, but when you\u0026rsquo;re the only woman on a site, or one of the few, you often get the \u0026ldquo;women\u0026rsquo;s jobs\u0026rdquo;.\nIn this particular case, during the 18 months I\u0026rsquo;d been there, my general manager had lost five executive assistants. That\u0026rsquo;s not normal. Clearly, it was a difficult role. They couldn\u0026rsquo;t find someone and really needed one, so they asked me to fill in. I had a massive tantrum—not throwing my fists, but I went into my boss\u0026rsquo;s office and said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re asking me to do this because I\u0026rsquo;m a woman, and I\u0026rsquo;m not happy about that.\u0026rdquo;\nThere were five other graduates who were male. Any of them could do that role. Why did they pick me? I had a real bee in my bonnet about how we always give women the job of taking notes and getting the frigging tea. It was a real issue I\u0026rsquo;d heard so much about, and I was really sensitive to it.\nI overreacted, but my boss said, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s fair for you to say that, because this does happen. But I promise you, Lacey, that\u0026rsquo;s not why you were chosen. Can you take my word for it that you\u0026rsquo;re going to learn something really important and that you want to take this role?\u0026rdquo;\nI agreed because I really liked my boss, JP, who was fantastic. I said, \u0026ldquo;Fine, I\u0026rsquo;ll do it, but I\u0026rsquo;m not happy that you\u0026rsquo;ve picked me because I\u0026rsquo;m a girl.\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not picking you because you\u0026rsquo;re a girl. Stop it.\u0026rdquo; It turned out that BHP was looking to buy Western Mining.\nI got to be part of the war room set up for the merger and acquisition. I joined discussions with the executive team and heard how they would pitch the company and persuade another company to buy it. I got to learn about M\u0026amp;A.\nLearning that at 22 is unusual for a graduate engineer who\u0026rsquo;d just come off the furnace in a scruffy, dirt-covered outfit. I was in these meetings because I could make graphs and type, and they needed that. I got to hear those conversations and understand how a war room was set up. It was some of the most invaluable experience I got in that graduate program. You couldn\u0026rsquo;t have planned it.\nMy boss had noted that I wanted to be a CEO because I\u0026rsquo;d told him. He\u0026rsquo;d asked, \u0026ldquo;Where do you want to go eventually?\u0026rdquo; and I\u0026rsquo;d said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d like to be a CEO, so I want to do management stuff.\u0026rdquo; He gave me the role so I could get this amazing experience, because I was the graduate who\u0026rsquo;d said I was interested in that work.\nHe was doing the right thing by me. The fact that I was female was neither here nor there. I\u0026rsquo;m lucky that, when I didn\u0026rsquo;t listen to him, he didn\u0026rsquo;t say, \u0026ldquo;Fine, I\u0026rsquo;ll give it to someone else,\u0026rdquo; just to spite me. I\u0026rsquo;m very lucky that he understood my response. That\u0026rsquo;s the difference between having a good boss and a bad boss.\nWhat did I learn from that? Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll think something is happening for a reason when it isn\u0026rsquo;t. I had a bee in my bonnet. I looked at everything and thought, \u0026ldquo;They\u0026rsquo;re asking me to do that because I\u0026rsquo;m a girl. I\u0026rsquo;m refusing on principle because I\u0026rsquo;m a feminist, and thou shalt not make me.\u0026rdquo;\nThat isn\u0026rsquo;t always the case; it\u0026rsquo;s just your frame of reference. You need to be willing to listen when people tell you that\u0026rsquo;s wrong. Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll be right and sometimes you won\u0026rsquo;t. I think that\u0026rsquo;s the most important point.\nThe second thing I learnt from this experience, which has stayed with me throughout my career, is to pick your boss wisely. No one has a bigger impact on how happy you are at work than your boss. The end. I reckon 80 per cent of your satisfaction at work comes from whether you have a good or not-so-good boss.\nI think you have to have had not-so-good bosses to understand what a good boss is. I\u0026rsquo;ve only had a couple of bad ones in my time. I\u0026rsquo;ve been very lucky and had fantastic bosses, but I started getting very choosy early on about whom I\u0026rsquo;d work for.\nWhen I was younger, I worked for—I\u0026rsquo;m going to be blunt—a bad boss. He was shocking and shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been allowed to manage people. Everything was cookie-cutter, with no consideration of anyone\u0026rsquo;s personal views, circumstances or preferences. It was always, \u0026ldquo;This is how we do it. You will do it this way,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;We never give people that high mark. Everybody only ever gets an average.\u0026rdquo; He shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been allowed to manage people.\nRecognise that it isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily you or your fault. When you\u0026rsquo;re new to the workplace, you don\u0026rsquo;t really understand whether you\u0026rsquo;re not meeting expectations or you\u0026rsquo;ve simply been lumped with a bad boss. Sometimes it\u0026rsquo;s a little of both, so you have to be honest with yourself. But if you\u0026rsquo;ve got a bad boss, accept that they\u0026rsquo;re a bad boss and aren\u0026rsquo;t right for you. Maybe they\u0026rsquo;re good for other people, but not for you. Become choosy.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s something I learnt from my experience when I was young: I\u0026rsquo;ve got to be really picky about whom I work for. Don\u0026rsquo;t work for arseholes. The end.\nJosh Farr # James: To finish today, we have episode 22 with Josh Farr. Josh is the founder of the Campus Consultancy. He\u0026rsquo;s worked with more than 20,000 leaders across schools, universities and non-profits. He\u0026rsquo;s given TED Talks and won awards for his speaking. He\u0026rsquo;s an incredible, incredible person. Today, we\u0026rsquo;re going to hear his advice for graduates starting in the workforce.\nWhat advice would you give yourself if you were starting your career today?\nJosh: That\u0026rsquo;s a good one. Probably what I just said: think about the next five years. Who do you want to help? If someone\u0026rsquo;s lost, a practical way forward is to try to answer that question.\nI\u0026rsquo;m sure I\u0026rsquo;m stealing this from someone; it isn\u0026rsquo;t an original idea. But the point of a career is to end unnecessary suffering. If you\u0026rsquo;re unsure what you want to do, try to end unnecessary suffering. What does that mean? Find some suffering, find someone who\u0026rsquo;s struggling or find suffering that shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be happening—somewhere we have a resourcefulness problem, not a resource problem.\nAs I was telling you before we started recording, I booked an Airbnb today. When I logged in, the Airbnb homepage said, \u0026ldquo;Can we help house 200,000 Ukrainian refugees?\u0026rdquo; or something like that. Obviously, there are more than that, but I\u0026rsquo;m pretty sure 200,000 was the number shown.\nThere are many people on Airbnb with vacant places in different parts of the world who can say, \u0026ldquo;Actually, I could put a family up for two weeks. I could go without two weeks of Airbnb income and put someone up for two weeks, two months, two years or whatever it is. I could do this. It\u0026rsquo;s a small sacrifice. My family\u0026rsquo;s not going to starve.\u0026rdquo;\nMany people listening might not have a spare Airbnb, but they may have a spare weekend, a couple of hours or $50 a month they can donate. My advice to my younger self would be to find a problem you care about.\nFind some suffering, as weird as that sounds. Try to find something with leverage, where the suffering doesn\u0026rsquo;t need to happen, where there\u0026rsquo;s a solution and there are great organisations or people. Start getting involved in that space. Change your proximity. The thing that changed everything for me was proximity.\nThe hardest advice I\u0026rsquo;d give my younger self, and the hardest to say to people, is that I think you need to go somewhere in the world with real problems and spend time there. There are also real problems in your neighbourhood, such as domestic abuse.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not as though you can knock on your neighbour\u0026rsquo;s door and ask, \u0026ldquo;Is any suffering happening in here?\u0026rdquo; Those problems are hidden, so it isn\u0026rsquo;t the same. You can either tap into what\u0026rsquo;s happening in your local environment or go somewhere and be in an environment where the problem smacks you.\nI needed that smack: \u0026ldquo;There are real problems out here, and you can do something about them.\u0026rdquo; It wasn\u0026rsquo;t overly palatable, but it was really practical. The gap between what I thought I wanted and what I needed became really apparent. So my advice would be to find somewhere with a real challenge and be around people who are actually solving it.\nIf I had just seen this crisis and hadn\u0026rsquo;t seen anyone solving it, it would have been really depressing. But I went to the refugee border crossing and saw local families, bakers and people who had next to nothing giving away everything. They closed their businesses and gave all their bread to refugees they didn\u0026rsquo;t know, who were from another country and didn\u0026rsquo;t even have the same religion.\nSome religious narratives blatantly said, \u0026ldquo;These guys are the enemy,\u0026rdquo; and these people responded, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re going to give our entire lives to helping them.\u0026rdquo; I thought, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s religion. That\u0026rsquo;s what it\u0026rsquo;s about.\u0026rdquo; Being around people who were so selfless and generous changed my perspective.\nA version of that rant is what I\u0026rsquo;d hope to tell my younger self.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening today. We\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 37\n","date":"4 July 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/37-on-the-best-of-graduate-theory/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 37\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On The Best Of Graduate Theory","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is incredibly humble and has fantastic insights into important topics.\nIn this episode, we chat about the importance of thinking for yourself and why questioning everything leads to great insights.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter. Do it now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nMax Marchione is the Founder of the angel investing group Ultraviolet Ventures, the Founder of Next Chapter, has interned at Goldman Sachs and works part-time at venture fund GGV.\nHe is currently studying Maths and Finance at the University of Sydney.\n🤝 Connect with Max # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxmarchione/\nNext Chapter - https://www.nextchapter.to/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Independent Thought # The main thread through our conversation was the idea of independent thought.\nThinking independently is where original ideas and unique insights come from. As Max pointed out though, we don\u0026rsquo;t want people to be completely independent because that would make the world a little crazy.\nWhen I asked Max about how he thinks about independent thinking he said there were some things to keep in mind.\n1. Radical Open-Mindedness # The precursor to independent thinking is Radical Open-mindedness. Having unique thoughts about things comes from questioning everything.\n2. Question Everything # Max mentioned that most people assume that the things in the world are good by default, but he assumes that there is definitely room for improvement.\nRules exist to prevent us from doing anything wrong but also prevent us from doing anything exceptional.\nMax gave the example of studying at school. He chose not to do the homework his teachers set, and instead go about learning the content his own way. This is breaking the rules, but for a better outcome.\nConsider what rules you follow and how you could break them for better outcomes.\nCourage # One of Max\u0026rsquo;s ideas that hasn\u0026rsquo;t taken off as well as he thought was the idea that courage is more important than competence.\nThere are many competent people, but only a few are courageous.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s courage and being in the arena that brings luck and the probability of outsized outcomes.\nMany people could do something - but few have the courage to pursue the opportunity.\nBalancing Both Sides # One thing I learned about Max was that he has a great ability to balance both sides of an argument. When we were discussing things, often he would make a great point for one side and then make an equally great point about the other side.\nI think this general ability to be able to look at issues objectively and note the positives of alternative approaches is a fantastic skill, and one we need more of in an increasingly polarised world.\nThe Happiness Paradox # A topic I\u0026rsquo;ve been interested in recently is the idea of both enjoying the present while also striving for the future.\nThere are phrases out there like \u0026lsquo;Never Be Satisfied\u0026rsquo; which encourage us to continually push ourselves towards a better future.\nMax put this nicely when he said that striving for a better future and enjoying the present are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to perform well and also enjoy doing it.\nLessons for Peak Workplace Performance # Max gave some great tips for performing well in the workplace.\n1/ Pick Your Game\nTry to align your skills and personality with a suitable role or opportunity. Don\u0026rsquo;t be Lionel Messi playing basketball.\n2/ Overcommunicate\nTelling your manager and team where you are up to is not weakness, it\u0026rsquo;s proactive.\n3/ Reliability\nReliability helps us to compound those small things into big things. Reliability isn\u0026rsquo;t doing the best projects or being the smartest employee, it\u0026rsquo;s about doing something and doing it consistently well.\nIf people know they can count on you, you will be suitably rewarded.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Max Marchione\n01:20 Max\u0026rsquo;s Journey\n03:53 Max\u0026rsquo;s Learning Gap Year\n07:41 How did learning how to learn affect Max\n11:24 How does Max go about being an independent thinker?\n18:21 Idea\u0026rsquo;s that Max thinks are undervalued\n25:46 Max\u0026rsquo;s best investment of time and money\n29:45 How Max approaches enjoying the present vs striving towards the future\n35:39 How does Max approach his career?\n41:23 How does Max think about high performance in the workplace?\n44:34 Max\u0026rsquo;s Advice\n47:34 Connect with Max\n47:48 Outro\n","date":"27 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/36-max-marchione/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today’s guest is incredibly humble and has fantastic insights into important topics.\n","title":"Max Marchione | On Independent Thought And The Value Of Courage","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 36\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nMax: Some people\u0026rsquo;s default is that society is good as it is. My default is that society as it stands is bad, and the action underpinning that view is to break the rules—not to flunk things, but when you see a more productive way of doing them.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is the founder of angel-investment syndicate Ultraviolet Ventures and the founder of Next Chapter. He\u0026rsquo;s interned at Goldman Sachs and works part-time at venture fund GGV Capital. On top of all this, he\u0026rsquo;s studying mathematics and finance at the University of Sydney. Please welcome Max Marchione.\nMax: Thank you.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have you on the show. You\u0026rsquo;ve accomplished so much, and I\u0026rsquo;m excited to learn how you approach different situations. For the audience, could you briefly recap your journey from finishing high school to university? What was that experience like?\nMax\u0026rsquo;s Journey # Max: I\u0026rsquo;ll give you the journey from high school to now. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to glorify anything, because stories told retrospectively through rose-coloured glasses sound planned and structured. People see the end and think, “Wow, this person is amazing.”\nFor 90% of people I know, including me, the journey was iterative: we took one step at a time and arrived where we are. After high school, I took what I call a learning gap year.\nI spent a year learning things school doesn\u0026rsquo;t teach. I read about 70 books, attended conferences and events in every industry I could find, and spoke with older people—including people I found intimidating—to see the world as it was. University came next.\nI began studying law at the University of Sydney. It\u0026rsquo;s seen as an option-maximising degree, and if you perform well in high school, studying law is a social default. I fell into that trap without independently considering whether it was right for me.\nI enjoyed law and did well, but after a year realised I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to become a lawyer. Spending another five years studying it couldn\u0026rsquo;t be the best use of my time, so I dropped law and redirected that time into other things. That was only about a year and a half ago, when I had done none of what I do now.\nMany listeners may be in exactly the position I occupied 18 months ago. Since then, I\u0026rsquo;ve interned at AfterWork Ventures and Goldman Sachs, and now run a series of global communities called Next Chapter.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve also started an angel-investment syndicate called Ultraviolet and interned and scouted for GGV Capital. That\u0026rsquo;s where I am now.\nMax\u0026rsquo;s Learning Gap Year # James: The learning gap year is an interesting approach. At that age, I was doing random things without knowing much about anything. Did you have a clear vision for what you wanted to achieve and learn during the year, or did you stumble into it?\nMax: A theme I return to is breaking the rules. We\u0026rsquo;re surrounded by social defaults—things we\u0026rsquo;re expected to do—that people rarely stop to question. After high school, there are two main defaults.\nOne is university, often medicine or law if you did well at school. The other is a travel gap year in Europe, South America or elsewhere. I don\u0026rsquo;t think those are the only options.\nI questioned them. I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to travel for an entire year because learning gives me energy, but I also didn\u0026rsquo;t want university\u0026rsquo;s structured system and set curriculum.\nI was interested in many domains and aware of mental models and multidisciplinary thinking, which combine ideas from different fields. I wanted to act on that interest.\nThe goal was to become a broad generalist, gaining roughly 10% knowledge of as many fields as possible: health, property, finance, neuroscience, psychology and others. I pursued that through reading and online courses.\nI also attended many events. Was it premeditated? Yes and no. The idea of a learning gap year was planned, but what I did differed from my expectations.\nI expected to start a social-media marketing agency and build it into a business. Instead, I took a more generalist path and learnt across many fields. The basic principle was delayed gratification.\nI could start the agency and make a couple of thousand dollars a month, or sacrifice that income and invest the time in becoming a jack of all trades and master of none. I started there and hope eventually to master one trade, but I\u0026rsquo;m not there yet.\nHow did learning how to learn affect Max # James: You spent an entire year learning through books, courses and other resources. How did that year affect the way you now approach new skills?\nMax: I say, “Learn, do, learn.” Begin by gaining a little knowledge in a field, then take the most important step: act on and battle-test it.\nYou then learn from the battle scars and wins. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve done. I think of myself almost as a startup product. When launching a startup, you begin in product mode by developing the product.\nYou build a strong product, test it with a small group in a closed alpha, then move into go-to-market and growth phases. Inadvertently, I followed the same process.\nThe learning gap year was my learn or product phase. Now I\u0026rsquo;ve moved into growth, go-to-market and doing, where I\u0026rsquo;ve discovered how much faster action makes you learn. For me, doing currently includes Next Chapter, a collection of communities and an online media platform.\nIt also includes angel investing with Ultraviolet and a few other projects. I\u0026rsquo;ve transitioned from the gap year\u0026rsquo;s theoretical learning into practical learning through action.\nJames: Action is extremely important. I recently heard or read that if you do enough, you\u0026rsquo;re forced to learn in order to continue; learning becomes the handbrake. Learning for its own sake is interesting, but action amplifies and solidifies it.\nMax: Absolutely. The catch is the person who acts but never learns. There\u0026rsquo;s a balance between courage and competence. I say courage is scarcer and more important than competence, but a person with complete courage who never becomes competent is what people call an idiot.\nCourage is one of the most important traits, but it must be tempered by learning. We need both.\nHow does Max go about being an independent thinker? # James: I want to explore independent thought, which you mentioned earlier. It\u0026rsquo;s difficult to stop thinking what everyone else thinks, develop your own view and stand behind it. How do you approach a situation independently and say, “This is what I think, and here\u0026rsquo;s why”?\nMax: It\u0026rsquo;s difficult, and I don\u0026rsquo;t have a fixed answer. At a fundamental level, independent thought requires radical open-mindedness. I have an article called “Radical Open-Mindedness” on my blog, maxmarchione.com. That\u0026rsquo;s the first part. The second is adopting a default of questioning everything. Some people\u0026rsquo;s default is that society is good as it is. My default is that society as it stands is bad, and the action underpinning that view is to break the rules.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve broken rules throughout my life. In high school, I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t do assigned homework because I believed there were more productive ways to earn a good mark. I don\u0026rsquo;t mean breaking rules merely to flunk things.\nBreak a rule when you see a more productive approach. I could dedicate the homework time to something more valuable. That\u0026rsquo;s independent thought, although it must be balanced against the risk of punishment.\nPunishment is interesting because it deters people from breaking rules simply to do worse. If you break them with the right motivation—to improve rather than deteriorate—you can increasingly get away with it over time.\nHomework is one example and my gap year another: the rule was university or travel, while a learning gap year was different. I also broke a university convention. The default says that before applying to Goldman Sachs, you need three or four years at university.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re expected to have completed multiple internships. That may make getting in the door easier, but if you\u0026rsquo;re deliberate about telling your story, preparing and developing the traits needed to interview well, there\u0026rsquo;s no reason a law student needs four years at university before entering investment banking.\nAfter a year and a half, I interviewed for Goldman Sachs. I probably wouldn\u0026rsquo;t succeed, but the worst or base case was failing and learning a great deal. Don\u0026rsquo;t accept defaults; question everything. Radical open-mindedness is the prerequisite. Those are the pillars of becoming a more independent thinker.\nJames: Open-mindedness and independent thought are fundamental to doing anything insightful, unique, useful or outside the mould. Major innovation comes from independent thought, so developing it is important. I\u0026rsquo;ll be borrowing some of that insight.\nMax: There\u0026rsquo;s a counterpoint. If everyone were completely independent, nothing would get done. Copying and learning from others lets us learn quickly. It\u0026rsquo;s how we learn to walk and talk.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also how we learn social interaction. Some of the most independent thinkers are people with Asperger\u0026rsquo;s. That may produce Elon Musks who do mind-blowing things, but the average person doesn\u0026rsquo;t want 100% independent thought. On a scale from complete copycat to complete independence, neither extreme is ideal.\nWe shouldn\u0026rsquo;t idolise a specific point in the middle; we should understand what motivates and drives us. What we must avoid is being a copycat without realising it.\nThat person moves through life as a product of everyone else without the awareness to see it. This tempers the idea that you must always be independent, which I don\u0026rsquo;t believe.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good counterpoint.\nMax: I\u0026rsquo;ll argue both sides. There\u0026rsquo;s endless productivity advice telling you how to behave. All of it is both right and wrong; the question is whether it fits you. It must be personal. There isn\u0026rsquo;t one answer, only what works for me.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve been reflecting on what I want my future life to look like, then evaluating career and life decisions against that vision rather than popular measures such as higher pay or status. Those aren\u0026rsquo;t always the right filters. If your goal is to work remotely from a cabin in the woods, working 16 hours a day in the city doesn\u0026rsquo;t serve it. Advice should be applied to your situation.\nJames: There are many topics I want to cover, so apologies if my next few questions jump around.\nMax: That\u0026rsquo;s how I roll. I\u0026rsquo;m always happy to jump among multiple ideas.\nIdeas that Max thinks are undervalued # James: You share extensively on LinkedIn, Twitter and elsewhere. What idea have you shared that didn\u0026rsquo;t receive the attention you hoped for, or whose value people underappreciated?\nMax: I love this question. It\u0026rsquo;s a natural follow-on from independent thought, because my most underappreciated content tends to contain the most independent thinking. People often prefer hearing things they already believe.\nThree ideas stand out. The first is that courage is more important than competence. Successful startup founders are competent, but thousands of people are equally competent.\nI heard Doug Leone, who runs Sequoia Capital—perhaps not the largest but the world\u0026rsquo;s most successful VC fund—say that although he\u0026rsquo;s intelligent and has a high EQ, thousands of people are just as competent. Luck and courage enabled him to get where he is, and they go together: courage puts you in the arena where luck can strike. That\u0026rsquo;s the first idea.\nThe second concerns living to 100. When I say I want that, people respond, “What? Fuck no. I want to die at 80.” We assume that by 80 we\u0026rsquo;ll be disabled and the last 20 years will be awful. A realistic alternative is reaching 70 without thinking you\u0026rsquo;re decrepit.\nAt 70, you could ask what meaningful experiences and creations will fill the next 30 years. That mentality requires health: 70-year-olds who look and feel 50 or 60, which is entirely possible.\nBlue zones are places where people commonly live to 100 or beyond—almost as if that were the average age. Why do they live so long? It isn\u0026rsquo;t because they meditate daily, wear trackers or take supplements.\nTheir cultures support sleep, exercise, healthy food and strong relationships. Helping people reach 70 in good health therefore requires a culture where exercise, sleep, low stress and healthy eating are normal.\nThe underappreciated idea is that we can and should think about living to 100. The third idea—which I\u0026rsquo;m judging by its few Twitter reactions—is that professionalism is mimetic, not innate.\nPicture a spectrum with independence at one end and copying at the other. Another word for copying is “mimetic”: we inherit desires and convictions from others. Much of how people engage with the world is mimetic.\nProfessionalism belongs largely in that copycat category. Call-centre employees may be the world\u0026rsquo;s most professional people. Further along, an investment-banking analyst is still somewhat mimetic and very professional.\nThe managing director is normally less professional than the analyst. Professionalism is largely a matter of copying others. At the non-professional end are founders such as Jack Dorsey, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Ryan Breslow and Steve Jobs.\nWhat they share is independence of thought. Non-professionalism can equal independence, while professionalism can equal conformity. It\u0026rsquo;s a balance; I\u0026rsquo;m not suggesting that you suddenly walk barefoot into the office. Be aware of how and why you act.\nProfessionalism is mimetic, not something we\u0026rsquo;re born with.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting food for thought.\nMax: I don\u0026rsquo;t think professionalism is bad; I could give ten arguments for why it matters. Neither end is inherently bad.\nJames: When you enter an organisation, you adopt its culture. As you said, you can\u0026rsquo;t simply walk into an investment-banking office barefoot and wearing a T-shirt.\nMax: The managing director can, which is interesting. One interpretation is that seniority gives you more freedom to be independent; another is that more independent people advance further.\nAgain, it\u0026rsquo;s a balance. Some candidates interview in robot mode—100% professionalism—and won\u0026rsquo;t progress. Stronger candidates balance professionalism with human mode.\nThey show personality, which can sometimes oppose professionalism. Being too bubbly may seem unprofessional, but an interview requires balance. You can\u0026rsquo;t be a complete robot, and probably shouldn\u0026rsquo;t discuss your dating life—although I have a friend who does, and he\u0026rsquo;ll know who I mean. Both elements need to be present.\nMax\u0026rsquo;s best investment of time and money # James: Continuing this thread of unrelated questions, here\u0026rsquo;s a Tim Ferriss classic: what has been your most valuable investment of time or money?\nMax: I\u0026rsquo;ll start with time, which is generally more valuable because you can make more money but can\u0026rsquo;t buy more time. My first major investment is Next Chapter, the series of communities I run for the most curious, ambitious, kind and talented people we can find.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s how I know you, James. I believe we\u0026rsquo;re the average of those around us, and Next Chapter has built an excellent tribe around me.\nThat changes what\u0026rsquo;s normal. Copying is our natural default, but now I\u0026rsquo;m copying useful behaviours. I don\u0026rsquo;t need to be as independent within Next Chapter; copying everyone there will probably serve me well. My second investment of time is Ultraviolet, an angel-investment syndicate where founders and creators invest in other founders and creators, including podcasters, YouTubers, newsletter writers and community managers.\nThose are my two best investments of time. Ironically, my favourite monetary investments buy more time: productivity tools such as a better laptop or AirPods that let me easily listen to podcasts.\nI have a 39-inch monitor because it saves time and makes me more productive. From a financial-investment perspective, my best result was pure luck.\nAn angel investment increased 15-fold in two months, but that was a fluke I may never repeat in 20 more investments. Overall, investing time matters more because we can\u0026rsquo;t buy more of it.\nJames: For listeners who haven\u0026rsquo;t heard of Next Chapter, it\u0026rsquo;s an incredible community. I\u0026rsquo;ve loved participating, met fascinating people and gained considerable value.\nMax: We\u0026rsquo;re opening another intake soon. Follow me and Next Chapter on LinkedIn; in about a week, you\u0026rsquo;ll see the next community intake and can decide whether it interests you.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;d love to see more people there. I don\u0026rsquo;t think I\u0026rsquo;ve met another member in person, yet I still gain considerable value. Interested listeners should consider joining.\nHow Max approaches enjoying the present vs striving towards the future # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s continue this thread. There\u0026rsquo;s often a paradox between enjoying the present and being grateful for what we have, and refusing to accept where we are so that we can drive towards a desired future. How do you enjoy the present while still chasing the things you want? I know it\u0026rsquo;s quite an open question.\nMax: Do both at once. I don\u0026rsquo;t think they\u0026rsquo;re mutually exclusive. I enjoy the process of working towards things and get a lot of present energy from building. It isn\u0026rsquo;t discontentment with the present; it\u0026rsquo;s complete contentment with the process of building in the present.\nI think your question also alludes to the idea of happiness that many people discuss: if you\u0026rsquo;re not present, perhaps you\u0026rsquo;re not happy. Ideally, however, you want to reach the point where you don\u0026rsquo;t think about happiness. I don\u0026rsquo;t think the happiest people actively think about it. Instead, they have routines that allow them to maintain a high baseline level of happiness. Despite seeming like somebody who works hard, I think my baseline happiness is seven or eight because I don\u0026rsquo;t think about it much.\nI focus on routines. I make sure I sleep and exercise, don\u0026rsquo;t use social media too much, and see my family at least a couple of times a week. If I do those four things, I\u0026rsquo;m basically guaranteed to be happy. Have routines that are part of how you engage with the world, and hopefully those processes take care of themselves. Being future-focused and present-focused aren\u0026rsquo;t mutually exclusive; they can go hand in hand.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good way of thinking about it. Sometimes I get stuck wondering whether I desire the future so badly that it takes away from enjoying what I have now.\nMax: I understand. They aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily mutually exclusive, but they don\u0026rsquo;t perfectly overlap either. You can have a situation where the present vies against the future. Naval has a saying, which I think he appropriated from somebody else: desire is a contract you make with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want. He is saying that desire and wanting more are guaranteed to bring unhappiness. That\u0026rsquo;s both true and untrue.\nIt relates to the Buddhist idea that desire is the root of suffering, which I both agree and disagree with. Desire can lead to suffering, but I don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily think all suffering is bad. You\u0026rsquo;ll notice that I push back against conventional wisdom. I can argue both sides, but I\u0026rsquo;ll argue this one: suffering isn\u0026rsquo;t that bad.\nTake Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Roger Federer, or LeBron James. They suffer and endure more pain than almost anyone I\u0026rsquo;ve seen because they work so hard for what they believe in. Society glorifies that. They sacrifice enormously: they can\u0026rsquo;t drink, need to eat healthily, and have less time for family and friends. They\u0026rsquo;re glorified because culturally it\u0026rsquo;s acceptable to glorify sportspeople.\nThen you might have somebody like Mark Zuckerberg or Warren Buffett, who also sacrificed a lot, worked extremely hard, and hustled. In the business world, you can be denigrated for working hard and put down for that suffering. I think it depends on the game you\u0026rsquo;re playing. If you\u0026rsquo;re Messi, you\u0026rsquo;re innately good at football, so exercising your talents to the best of your ability and enlivening your sense of meaning means working hard to become a great footballer. If you\u0026rsquo;re Warren Buffett, you\u0026rsquo;re a clear, independent thinker who likes deep analysis, so exercising your talents to the best of your ability means working hard to become a successful investor and businessperson.\nSuffering is interesting because people glorify it in some instances and completely denigrate it in others. Desire can lead to suffering, but suffering isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily bad if it\u0026rsquo;s linked to something that gives you meaning.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s deep. I haven\u0026rsquo;t heard it explained that way before, but I agree with the comparison. That\u0026rsquo;s really interesting food for thought. Let\u0026rsquo;s continue with the assorted list of questions.\nHow does Max approach his career? # James: Independent thought has been a nice thread through this conversation. How do you approach your career? You\u0026rsquo;ve already mentioned taking a learning year and joining Goldman perhaps a year or two earlier than you were supposed to. More broadly, how do you optimise for what you want from your career?\nMax: I have an article on my website called “Career Design Manifesto”, or something like that, in which I present four heuristics or frameworks for deciding what to focus on. They aren\u0026rsquo;t intended to provide a set way of piecing your career together; it\u0026rsquo;s meant to be personal.\nThe first and most important framework is to match your career to your nature. If we do that, we\u0026rsquo;ll be good at our careers and energised for the long haul. Naval puts it another way: find what feels like play to you but looks like work to others. Sahil Bloom says to find your zone of genius—the overlap of your interests, talents, and learned skills. Matching your career to your nature is the most important thing. I don\u0026rsquo;t think everyone should pursue the biggest thing they could possibly do if it doesn\u0026rsquo;t suit their nature.\nSecond, early in your career, optimise for learning: both what you learn and how quickly you learn it. You want to learn rapidly, but you also want to learn the right thing. We don\u0026rsquo;t know what the right thing is, so try everything early on and get a feel for it.\nI say that university equals internships. Unless you\u0026rsquo;re studying for a professional degree such as medicine or engineering, use university to intern in every area you can. Work to learn, then determine which areas match your nature. That will help you decide. Rapid learners have a huge career advantage because they can do more in less time and quickly get up to speed in a new scenario. I have another article on my blog called “The Most Important Skill”, which discusses improving the pace of learning and choosing what to learn.\nThe third framework is optionality: should we pursue it or double down? Early on, you want to pursue optionality. Be open to everything and say yes to everything. When you find what you love, stop, double down, and burn the boats. You need to stop pursuing optionality then, or you\u0026rsquo;ll remain an “optionality person” for your entire life. Optionality is good early; once you find what you want, pursue it.\nThe final part is a central belief of mine: we should take more risks, particularly when we\u0026rsquo;re younger. When you\u0026rsquo;re young, the downside of a risk is typically zero. It\u0026rsquo;s often actually above zero because you learn a great deal in the process, while the upside can be almost unlimited. Interview for jobs you don\u0026rsquo;t think you\u0026rsquo;re qualified for. Start ventures, startups, or societies that you don\u0026rsquo;t think you\u0026rsquo;re worthy of or qualified to lead.\nTo bring it all together: match your career to your nature; optimise for both the speed and subject of your learning; pursue optionality early, then burn the boats and double down; and take more risks when you\u0026rsquo;re younger.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a useful framework. If people use those ideas to direct themselves even slightly better, they can be valuable. Let\u0026rsquo;s talk about performance in the workplace, at university, or wherever it might be.\nHow does Max think about high performance in the workplace? # James: How do you think about performing well in different situations? Taking the workplace as an example, are there rituals or techniques you apply to perform at your peak? More generally, how do you think about high performance?\nMax: The first thing is game selection. Choose a game or job that you\u0026rsquo;re uniquely well suited to playing. If you\u0026rsquo;re Lionel Messi, you should probably play football rather than basketball because you\u0026rsquo;re five foot six or whatever. You need to choose the right job. If you\u0026rsquo;re in the wrong one, you\u0026rsquo;ll struggle to perform at a truly high level no matter how talented you are.\nSecond, communicate and overcommunicate. Tell your managers what you\u0026rsquo;re working on and when you\u0026rsquo;ve finished it. Constantly keeping them updated on your progress alleviates pressure. Personally, I think I\u0026rsquo;m bad at communicating because I often feel as though I\u0026rsquo;m pestering my manager when they have better things to worry about. The mental switch that has to flick is realising that you aren\u0026rsquo;t pestering them; you\u0026rsquo;re making their job easier because they don\u0026rsquo;t have to keep mental tabs on you.\nThird—and it sounds trivial—be reliable. If you say you\u0026rsquo;re going to do something, do it. Charlie Munger was asked what single trait he wanted in people, and he said reliability. At the time, I wondered why reliability mattered. I think it\u0026rsquo;s because reliability compounds. If you faithfully show up day in and day out, that compounds. A saying I used to live by was, “The little things done consistently are the big things.”\nI\u0026rsquo;ve always taken that approach. I don\u0026rsquo;t think I ever work at 100 or even 90 per cent, but I\u0026rsquo;m constantly at 80 per cent. That means my happiness and energy remain high, and I\u0026rsquo;m always there. I enjoy that. It comes back to the idea that the little things done consistently are the big things.\nThose are the three principles: game selection is the most important, while communicating and being reliable are two more tactical practices.\nJames: Those are great. I agree about reliability: if somebody asks you to do something and you do it well, they may ask you to do slightly more. It compounds nicely.\nMax\u0026rsquo;s Advice # James: I have one final question. You\u0026rsquo;re currently at university, but let\u0026rsquo;s rewind to when you had just left school and were starting university. Knowing what you know now, and considering everything you\u0026rsquo;ve done and experienced, what advice would you give your younger self?\nMax: Be more courageous, take more risks, break the rules, and treat university as internships. In other words, use that time to do internships. Then be even more courageous. That\u0026rsquo;s the advice I\u0026rsquo;d give myself.\nJames: The idea of courage is interesting. I can certainly become better at applying it, as I think many of us can.\nMax: I still think it\u0026rsquo;s a weakness of mine. I don\u0026rsquo;t take enough risks and could be more courageous. It\u0026rsquo;s iterative: the more you put yourself out there and do courageous things, the more you build a thick skin. Eventually it no longer feels courageous; it simply feels normal.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s another reason I love Next Chapter. Being around the people there makes things that once seemed courageous feel normal. They continue to raise the bar for what\u0026rsquo;s normal.\nTo return to independent thought, our innate state as humans is to copy others. If you put two babies in a room with a thousand toys, they\u0026rsquo;ll fight over one toy. Given that information, I want to be around people or in a community where copying others leads me to a very good place.\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s true of courage as well. If you\u0026rsquo;re around people who raise the bar on ambition, courage, and proactivity, even starting a podcast—as you have—becomes normal. About a third of the community have their own podcasts. Starting one is courageous: it\u0026rsquo;s a bold move that puts you out into the world.\nAs a final piece of advice, be deliberate about finding people who lift you up. Join communities or collectives that create a culture in which exceptional is normal.\nJames: I agree. Next Chapter has been great, and I think you said the next intake opens next week, so that\u0026rsquo;s exciting. If people want to learn more about Next Chapter and about you, where should they go?\nConnect with Max # Max: Connect with or follow me on LinkedIn, and reach out at any time. My website is maxmarchione.com. I\u0026rsquo;ve written about some of the subjects we\u0026rsquo;ve discussed and will soon write about the others because, as you can probably tell, I\u0026rsquo;m passionate about them. That\u0026rsquo;s where you can find me. My door is always open.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and everything I learned from this episode, go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 36\n","date":"27 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/36-max-marchione/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 36\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Max Marchione | On Independent Thought And The Value Of Courage","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is seriously impressive.\nDespite being a university student, he has worked in both private equity and investment banking.\nNext year, he\u0026rsquo;s starting in management consulting.\nIn this week\u0026rsquo;s episode, we hear about what it takes to land these roles, but also the doubts and struggles that arise along the way.\nIf you like what you see, subscribe to this newsletter and get emails like this, every week.👇\nSubscribe Now\nCheran Ketheesuran is in his final year of commerce and law at the University of Sydney. He’s a former Investment Banking intern at Macquarie, current investment intern at OIF Ventures and incoming graduate at McKinsey.\n🤝 Connect with Cheran # https://www.linkedin.com/in/cheran-ketheesuran/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Cover Letter # Cheran writes terrific cover letters. He says that in your cover letter, you need to answer three key questions\nwhy this company? why this industry? why you? if you can answer all three of those questions, to some degree of specificity and passion, then you automatically put yourself in the top 1-5% of applicants\nCheran says that questions 2 and 3 will remain very similar between companies. The biggest way to impress is to have a good answer to \u0026ldquo;why this company?\u0026rdquo;.\nThe key is to make sure you have something very specific to share.\n80% of candidates will look on the website, they might cite the mission of the company, which is still a lot more than a lot of candidates do, but finding a really specific reason why you want to work at that company is super important.\nTo get good results, get specific.\nResume # So we\u0026rsquo;ve heard how Cheran structured his cover letter. How about his Resume?\nCheran shares that he used the following sections\neducation professional experience leadership and extracurriculars skills and interests Within these sections, he mentioned two principles that we should follow.\n1/ Quantify Everything\nAnytime you have a number for something, use it.\nif you\u0026rsquo;ve screened companies, don\u0026rsquo;t just say \u0026ldquo;screened companies across the e-commerce sector in APAC\u0026rdquo; say, \u0026ldquo;personally screened 50 companies or a hundred \u0026quot;\nUsing numbers in your resume is powerful.\n2/ Personal Impact\nMake sure to state what you actually did as part of teams you\u0026rsquo;ve worked in.\nteamwork questions aren\u0026rsquo;t about the team they\u0026rsquo;re actually about you and how you work in the team. So you need to focus a lot on what your specific role is\nUncover your personal impact and make sure this is clear both on your resume and when you are asked behavioural questions in your interview.\n3/ Interests: The Most Important Line\nCheran shared that the line of interests in your resume is the most important. He shared with us a story of how in his final McKinsey interview, he ended up speaking about one of his interests, Longevity, for 15 minutes.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to make sure that you are confident speaking at length about whatever you put on your resume, even your interests.\nDecision Journal # Something that Cheran mentioned that I really liked was the idea of a Decision Journal.\nCheran\u0026rsquo;s process of choosing his graduate role was very comprehensive. He took six weeks of speaking to current and former employees to make his decision. All of his work was documented in his decision journal.\nKeeping records like this is a fantastic way to keep track of why you made certain decisions and provides a great resource to reflect on if you feel differently about that decision in the future.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s Always Someone Better # This idea is something that Cheran and I spoke about, and something that\u0026rsquo;s been on my mind recently.\nWhen you look at impressive people, it is very easy to feel down about your own accomplishments.\nIf someone is able to achieve so much, what does that say about me?\nSeeing someone doing things better than ourselves shines a light on our smaller and seemingly less \u0026lsquo;good\u0026rsquo; accomplishments.\nIt can be hard to deal with these feelings.\nWhat is comforting, is knowing that everyone deals with this. Even high performers like Cheran.\nIn these moments, I have found it helpful to keep in mind that we are all on our own journeys. None is better than the other. We all come from different backgrounds, do things in different ways, and have different goals and desires.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s difficult to stop comparing yourself to others.\nOne quote I love and that helps to ground me in situations such as these is:\nComparison is the thief of joy\nDon\u0026rsquo;t let comparison ruin your day. Let us be grateful and joyous for the things that we have.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Cheran Ketheesuran 00:44 Cheran\u0026rsquo;s Intro to Finance 04:23 The Finance Job Process 07:46 Cheran Missing Winters 11:06 How to prepare for IB Internships 20:01 How did Cheran prepare more for Summer 27:16 Importance of your Network 33:27 The value of university clubs in creating connections 35:46 Common areas in job applications that people get stuck on 40:10 Cheran\u0026rsquo;s Biggest Learning 44:49 Cheran\u0026rsquo;s failure that ended up being a success 51:23 The Post Interview Decision Process 58:53 What questions did Cheran ask in his post-offer decision process? 1:02:40 What drives Cheran 1:06:24 Cheran\u0026rsquo;s Advice 1:10:33 Where to contact Cheran 1:11:34 Outro\n","date":"20 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/35-cheran-ketheesuran/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Today’s guest is seriously impressive.\nDespite being a university student, he has worked in both private equity and investment banking.\n","title":"Cheran Ketheesuran | On The Journey To Banking and Consulting Graduate Roles","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 35\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nCheran: If you think you can do that for 20 banks in three weeks and perform at your peak for each of those processes, then I want to meet you because you\u0026rsquo;re Superman or Superwoman.\nJames: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is in his penultimate year of Commerce/Law at the University of Sydney. He is a former investment banking intern at Macquarie, current investment intern at OIF Ventures, and an incoming grad at McKinsey. Please welcome to the show, Cheran Ketheesuran.\nCheran: Hi James. Thanks for having me. I love what you\u0026rsquo;re doing with the Graduate Theory podcast, and I\u0026rsquo;m humbled that you\u0026rsquo;ve asked me on.\nCheran\u0026rsquo;s Intro into Finance # James: No problem at all, man. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard so many good things about you, the way you apply for roles and how much of a role model you are for people currently going through this process. I\u0026rsquo;d love to wind back the clock and start from when you were first interested in going into consulting, banking and VC—these competitive fields. What was your introduction to this area?\nCheran: It was a bit of happenstance. Some of it was deleting options from my list of interests until I was left with commerce. In Year 12, I was applying to Sydney Uni and wondering what degree I\u0026rsquo;d do. Law had always interested me. If you read my scholarship application from back in the day, it talks all about wanting to be a human rights lawyer and help people. Commerce wasn\u0026rsquo;t even an interest in my view.\nEventually, I had some exposure to corporate law at Allens through its pre-internship programs and realised that I wanted a job where you wake up every morning and need to know what\u0026rsquo;s happened overnight and overseas in the markets. Law wasn\u0026rsquo;t going to provide that constant stimulation. I knew pretty quickly that law wasn\u0026rsquo;t going to be the path. Arguably, I should have dropped my law degree there, but that\u0026rsquo;s a conversation for later.\nI spent some time in DC doing government work, which I\u0026rsquo;d always loved, and a bit of banking and finance. When I came back to Sydney, I heard about the Industry Placement Program, which Sydney Uni still runs. You do an unpaid internship at a bank, private equity firm or other commercial organisation, and it counts as one of your subjects.\nI thought that was a cool process. I didn\u0026rsquo;t have connections in the industry, but I applied and got a spot at a mid-market private equity firm called CPE Capital, formerly CHAMP Private Equity. I had no idea what it was.\nI remember talking to one of my finance tutors who was a few years above. He was at Goldman at the time. I said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got this gig at CHAMP Private Equity.\u0026rdquo; He just looked at me dismayed, saying, \u0026ldquo;How on earth have you got into CHAMP Private Equity?\u0026rdquo; Then I said, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s through the IPP at Sydney Uni.\u0026rdquo;\nFrom there, I thought I\u0026rsquo;d better research who these guys were. That was my introduction. We can talk about the whole life cycle of my finance journey, but I started at the place where many people end up. It\u0026rsquo;s only been going backwards.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a surprising entry into commerce and finance. You then entered the world of investment banking and its whole internship process. I\u0026rsquo;m not familiar with this process, so could you outline the steps required for someone who wants a graduate role at Goldman or elsewhere? When do they need to start thinking about them?\nThe Finance Job Process # Cheran: Unfortunately, it\u0026rsquo;s what I call the hedonic treadmill of internships. At most investment banks, both bulge bracket and boutique, there are two ways to become a graduate.\nYou can apply directly in the year before you start. If you were starting in February 2023, for example, you would apply for a graduate spot in February 2022. About 30% of graduate-class positions come from that route. The vast majority, 60 to 70%, come from the summer analyst role: in your penultimate, or second-last, year of university, you do a roughly 10-week internship over summer. I started in December and finished in February. A proportion of the summer interns receive return offers and start at the bank the following year.\nThe best chance for candidates, therefore, is to become a summer analyst. Working backwards, what do you need to become one? That varies considerably with your background and what you\u0026rsquo;ve done at university. I knew that banking experience was essential for me.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s common to have done an investment banking internship before getting a summer analyst or winter role, so many students intern at a boutique, which normally has five to 15 people. I went to Greenstone Partners. I was lucky that one of my best mates, who used to work there, told me they were interviewing. I interviewed alongside about 10 other people and got the role.\nThat was crucial to my eventual role at Macquarie because it ticked the box: you\u0026rsquo;re interested in banking. Why? You\u0026rsquo;ve spent a year in banking, so there must be a reason you stayed that long.\nOutside that, much of the work involves building your core finance skills at university. There are also STEM and alternative-pathway programs. But the hedonic treadmill is usually a boutique internship, winter internship, summer internship and then a graduate role. That\u0026rsquo;s the progression you\u0026rsquo;ll commonly see on LinkedIn.\nJames: The first step helps you get the second, which helps you get the third. If you miss one, it becomes harder because you\u0026rsquo;re competing against people who\u0026rsquo;ve completed the steps in between. That happened to you with the winter internships. I\u0026rsquo;d love to discuss how you approached getting a summer internship afterwards.\nCheran Missing Winters # Cheran: I had Greenstone Partners throughout this period: I started in late 2020 and stayed through 2021. By March 2021, I\u0026rsquo;d started applying for winter programs. Many banks use those programs to lock in candidates before the summer rounds. Some banks, including Goldman and Bank of America, also offered summer spots quite early.\nI applied to most of the banks offering winter internships, including Jefferies, Credit Suisse and UBS. I reached the final round for most, but a clear deficiency caused each failure. At UBS, I wasn\u0026rsquo;t as on top of the technical material as I should have been. Credit Suisse said I didn\u0026rsquo;t have enough of an X-factor, which we can discuss in a second. Jefferies was a poor cultural fit. There was always a reason.\nI stepped back and recognised that I still had nothing for summer and would have to apply to all 20 to 25 banks. I realised the importance of peaking at the right time. It was crucial to view those winter failures as practice, because deep down I knew I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to end up at many of those places. I think they knew that too. It forced me to identify the banks where I wanted to work and show clearly through my CV, cover letter and behaviour why I wanted to be there.\nBy the time the summer rounds arrived, I knew I could not have done any more work for those roles. It ended up working quite well.\nThose were failures, no doubt. I tell students going through the process that, in hindsight, I hadn\u0026rsquo;t prepared well enough. There were clear areas to work on, and I asked for feedback after each failure because I didn\u0026rsquo;t need to peak in winter. I needed to peak in summer, when my future graduate role was at stake.\nJames: When you talk about preparing for these roles, you mention the X-factor and not knowing certain things as well as you would have liked. What does preparation involve? What do you look at when applying for these roles?\nPreparing for IB Internships # Cheran: If I take it back to a macro level, let\u0026rsquo;s say you\u0026rsquo;re applying for 20 jobs, which is what I was doing. I didn\u0026rsquo;t have a summer gig, so I was applying to all the banks, which is about 20. I had a massive Excel spreadsheet with a bank on each row. Each column was a different part of the application process. It would be the date it\u0026rsquo;s due, cover letter submitted, video submission, psychometrics, and then first round, second round, and so forth. I had a column essentially of people I knew at the bank and people who I wanted to reach out to as well.\nThat really grounded me in terms of: okay, here\u0026rsquo;s all the work I need to do in order to potentially get one job out of this process. It\u0026rsquo;s really important in these processes not to leave anything to your mind—make sure as much of it is down on the page so that you don\u0026rsquo;t have to remember, \u0026ldquo;Did I apply for this job? Have I done the psychometrics for Credit Suisse?\u0026rdquo; That was my big tracking ratio first and foremost.\nThe next stage from there, perhaps we\u0026rsquo;ll touch on the CV and cover letter side of things in terms of crafting those. The cover letter is the big chance for people to differentiate themselves. People underestimate the fact that whilst your recruiting manager may not read it, your interviewer often does. It got brought up quite a few times in my interviews.\nI had a really simple structure to go through these. You get bookended by your intro and your conclusion. There are three key questions to answer in every cover letter. The first one is: why this company? The second one is: why this industry? And the third one is: why you? If you can answer all three of those questions to some degree of specificity and passion, then you automatically put yourself in the top 1 to 5% of applicants.\nIn terms of \u0026ldquo;why this company\u0026rdquo;—that\u0026rsquo;s the paragraph that changes for each cover letter. Even if you\u0026rsquo;re doing 20 cover letters, 80% of that cover letter stays the same. It\u0026rsquo;s just that one paragraph that changes. For that \u0026ldquo;why this company\u0026rdquo; paragraph, I really had three key reasons that I\u0026rsquo;d always try to bring out. Three is a nice round number. I always made sure my last reason was something related to being at the company for a long time or creating a long-term career out of it.\nTake McKinsey for example. McKinsey have this program called the Fellowship Program where essentially after your first two years, you can go away and do a sponsored MBA or do an internship at a client company and so forth. I explicitly said I could really see myself building a long-term career at McKinsey. Whether you believe that or not, those are the things that a lot of these corporates, banks, consulting firms are looking for because churn is quite high in these industries. Therefore knowing that they can lock down people potentially for five to ten years is pretty important.\nThen the \u0026ldquo;why this company\u0026rdquo; question also comes back to the research you do on the company—it needs to be super specific. 80% of candidates will look on the website. They might cite the mission of the company, which is still a lot more than a lot of candidates do, but finding a really specific reason why you want to work at that company is super important. Everyone is very aware of the fact that everyone is applying everywhere.\nSpecific examples: at Macquarie, I talked a lot about the head office advantage. Macquarie\u0026rsquo;s head office is in Sydney compared to a lot of the US banks—Goldman, JPMorgan, Morgan Stanley—their head offices are overseas, or if it\u0026rsquo;s APAC, they\u0026rsquo;re in Singapore or Hong Kong. There\u0026rsquo;s a lot more red tape involved in getting decisions done. If you, as a potential intern, can highlight that, that\u0026rsquo;s pretty impressive to a lot of the seniors who don\u0026rsquo;t think that research could happen.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s really the approach to the cover letter. As to the \u0026ldquo;why this industry and sector\u0026rdquo; and the \u0026ldquo;why you\u0026rdquo;—really just linking it back to your personal experience and your skills.\nYou mentioned the X-factor feedback from my Credit Suisse interview. I asked, \u0026ldquo;Why didn\u0026rsquo;t I get a role?\u0026rdquo; The response was, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve done all these incredible things\u0026rdquo;—which were referencing being a leader in the FMAA society, doing stuff with the Australian Army Cadets, and so forth—but they felt I didn\u0026rsquo;t have this quote unquote X-factor. What I realised was my X-factor was having done all these busy, disparate things, but linking them all together somehow in a way that painted me as a super well-rounded person. That shaped the way I ended up approaching the interviews and the process.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the cover letter. The CV is similar, although you don\u0026rsquo;t want too much overlap. Firstly, keep it to one page. If a CEO can do that, so can you. A CEO has plenty of brand equity and doesn\u0026rsquo;t need to list every achievement, but I heard numerous comments such as, \u0026ldquo;A one-page CV. This is really nice to see.\u0026rdquo; Clearly it stands out.\nThe key sections are education, professional experience, leadership and extracurricular activities, followed by skills and interests. I have two big pieces of advice. First, quantify everything, particularly for consulting and banking. Anonymise anything that can\u0026rsquo;t be public, but write, \u0026ldquo;We advised an X-billion-dollar company on the acquisition of an X-million-dollar asset.\u0026rdquo; Show that you understand scale and numbers. If you\u0026rsquo;ve screened companies, don\u0026rsquo;t simply write, \u0026ldquo;Screened companies across the e-commerce sector in APAC.\u0026rdquo; Say that you personally screened 50 or 100 companies, whatever the number was.\nThe second piece of advice is to explain your personal impact. That\u0026rsquo;s where so many people fall down. Teamwork questions aren\u0026rsquo;t about the team; they\u0026rsquo;re about you and how you work within it. Focus on your specific role. That can be hard if you\u0026rsquo;re a junior or an intern at a boutique bank, but bankers and consultants can easily see when a candidate is fibbing about what they did.\nMy final piece of advice is that the last line of your CV, probably the interests line, may be the most important. It differentiates you from other candidates and is an opportunity to shine. Candidates are often told to keep it tame—and don\u0026rsquo;t include an inappropriate interest—but, for example, I\u0026rsquo;m heavily interested in the science of longevity and ageing and the work of David Sinclair, Peter Attia and other incredible people.\nThe last word on my CV is \u0026ldquo;longevity\u0026rdquo; because it\u0026rsquo;s the last interest on my interest section. In my final round McKinsey interview, we spent 15 minutes talking with the managing partner about senescent cells and zombie cells and fasting and the impacts on organisms. This was a final round management consulting interview. My point being is that you never know when these things will come up and that interest line is probably the finest line of all.\nJames: That is really cool. I\u0026rsquo;m taking notes because this is valuable, and I agree with much of it. Quantifying your resume and stating outcomes rather than only what you did is particularly important: \u0026ldquo;I did this, which produced this outcome.\u0026rdquo;\nCheran: And you\u0026rsquo;ll get asked that in your interview as well anyway. If you can preempt that early on, it always helps.\nHow did Cheran prepare more than last time # James: I\u0026rsquo;m curious then, with all this applying for these roles, what did you do more going from the winters to preparing for summer? Is there anything that you did slightly more in preparing for summer to clear out some of the things that you maybe didn\u0026rsquo;t do as much of in winter?\nCheran: The CV and cover letter fell off pretty quickly. Once you get those in check, there\u0026rsquo;s only so much you can do. Once you hit that cap—send it to 20, 30 different people as I did, get that feedback—and then you\u0026rsquo;re done. I submitted those applications pretty quickly.\nThe big difference between winter and summer was essentially—sounds cringe, but—priming yourself for interview performance. In the same way that you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t rock up to the 100-metre sprint in the Olympics without a whole lifetime\u0026rsquo;s worth of running that sprint a billion times, practising interviews—especially during COVID, which was the age of virtual interviews—was super important.\nTake banking as an example. Its interviews have four key buckets of questions. The first is technical knowledge. The second is behavioural questions, such as how you work in a team. The third is general knowledge: how much do you know about the world around you? The fourth is company-specific: why do you want to work here, and do you know what we do?\nIf I keep it specific to banking, for technicals, everybody knows there\u0026rsquo;s this Mergers \u0026amp; Inquisitions 400-question book that everybody has. I used that book, as well as after each interview I had during winter, I immediately—I\u0026rsquo;d go to a bathroom, I\u0026rsquo;d go to the lift or somewhere where I would be quiet—and straightaway I\u0026rsquo;d write down all the questions I got in that interview. I never left it to memory to go home and remember. I immediately wanted to get them down.\nBy the end I had a repository of maybe 50 questions or so, which to me were far more valuable than whatever\u0026rsquo;s in that M\u0026amp;I 400 book, because these were questions that were being asked. By the time I got to summer, a lot of those questions were coming up again. I made sure I practised those. In a sense, winter essentially was backwards prep.\nI did the same thing for behaviourals as well. What I essentially did was have a big document where I had all the questions listed out. I\u0026rsquo;d write a little paragraph for each question. Then I bought myself a 200-pack of palm cards. This would have been about three weeks before the interviews. Anyone who is going through the banking interview process knows that the banking interviews are all over within three days—it\u0026rsquo;s a very concentrated time period.\nI had 200 palm cards. On one side I\u0026rsquo;d write the question and, on the other, a dot-pointed version of the answer. I became a student of my own material for a week, reciting the cards for an hour or so each night. I became comfortable enough to know each answer and its logic, but not so rehearsed that I sounded robotic.\nYou need to find the balance. This is where a lot of candidates fall down: they\u0026rsquo;re either under-prepared, meaning they don\u0026rsquo;t know their content or they\u0026rsquo;re not aware of their various STAR methods for various behavioural questions, or they\u0026rsquo;ve prepared to the extreme where they\u0026rsquo;ve either memorised something and they just say it verbatim, or they hear a question that\u0026rsquo;s similar to a question they have practised and then just answer the question they\u0026rsquo;ve practised rather than answering the question they get given. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to be on either end of that spectrum. You want to be somewhere in the middle. Practising technicals and behaviourals in that manner was really useful for me.\nThen the final two buckets around general knowledge and company-specific things. Firstly, on the general knowledge for banking, it\u0026rsquo;s pretty common knowledge that you will get asked, \u0026ldquo;Tell me about a deal in the market,\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;Tell me about a deal that we\u0026rsquo;ve advised on.\u0026rdquo; I chose three or four deals that covered off the majority of banks that I ended up applying to in the end.\nI knew as much as I could about those deals. Top candidates offer a view on both the deal and the market. People don\u0026rsquo;t do that enough. You\u0026rsquo;re being hired as an intern or graduate analyst not only to sit at the back of rooms and take notes, but also to contribute and show that you understand what\u0026rsquo;s happening in the world. Demonstrating that when interviewing for an internship is immensely valuable.\nThen the last part around company-specific. Probably two buckets to this: firstly, rehashing the similar \u0026ldquo;why McKinsey, why Goldman\u0026rdquo;—whatever you\u0026rsquo;ve written in your cover letter and CV and so forth. But more specifically, once you find out who your interviewers are, if you\u0026rsquo;re lucky enough to, do your own due diligence on them. People might think it\u0026rsquo;s stalking or whatever it is, but go on their LinkedIn, see what the news coverage has been like, what are their interests, what are their passions, which deals have they worked on quite recently.\nFor consulting interviews, many interviewers will have written articles and thought pieces on the company website. The cases you\u0026rsquo;re given are often problems your interviewers have encountered in real life, so you can quickly develop an idea of the problem: \u0026ldquo;Emily, my interviewer, did a banking transformation in South-East Asia. It might be something to do with banking.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s the preparation to do two or three days beforehand, tailoring what you\u0026rsquo;re going to say.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really interesting and valuable. I\u0026rsquo;m not applying for graduate roles anymore, but this depth of preparation and approach to cover letters is universal, regardless of the industry.\nCheran: Absolutely. Even before I met you about a month ago, the one minute you spend finding out a person\u0026rsquo;s background makes the conversation infinitely more enjoyable. That\u0026rsquo;s a common piece of advice regardless of whether you\u0026rsquo;re applying for a job.\nImportance of your Network # James: I also want to ask about networking. You mentioned that one column in your job-tracking spreadsheet was, \u0026ldquo;Who do I know who works here?\u0026rdquo; How do you connect with people at these companies and involve them in your application process?\nCheran: I think network is a bit of a dirty word. At least it has that connotation. The word networking is seen as transactional in many cases. Yes, I think it is transactional, but that\u0026rsquo;s what I think the difference is between networking and relationship building.\nFor me, especially for graduate students, I think it\u0026rsquo;s super important to separate the role of networking into two different values. Firstly, you have informational value, and then secondly, you have outcome value. Informational value is unlimited. It\u0026rsquo;s untapped. There is never too much information that you can get from an individual or a group of individuals. Outcome value is capped. Once you get a particular role, that\u0026rsquo;s your outcome finished—you\u0026rsquo;ve ticked the box.\nIf you start thinking about network building and relationship building from an informational value perspective, that\u0026rsquo;s going to make those relationships much more valuable to you, but it\u0026rsquo;s also going to mean people are much more likely to buy into helping you out as well. Those are two big things.\nI realised this the first time: people like to help other people generally. If they don\u0026rsquo;t like to help other people, that\u0026rsquo;s a good signal of the culture of the place and the individual. And secondly, people very easily get invested in other people\u0026rsquo;s success. Once you can get those connections going, it does help you out quite a bit.\nI began networking around January, while applications opened in July, so I had a long runway. I looked at each bank on LinkedIn and found my first-degree connections. Most were peers who had just started as graduates or people from similar societies. I quickly built a list of two to five people I knew at each bank.\nFirst and foremost, I made sure to reach out to all of those individuals. A lot of them I knew pretty well anyway, so it wasn\u0026rsquo;t really a \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m meeting with you only to get something\u0026rdquo;—it was also just a friendly connection anyway. That was the first step.\nAfter that, I think the big mistake people make is they look at networking as a numbers game. It is not a numbers game. I remember a student I mentor in the year below told me, \u0026ldquo;Cheran, one of my mates was talking about the fact that I needed like a hundred minimum connections\u0026rdquo;—absolutely not the case.\nOnce you get into the interviews, the network—unless you somehow know the managing partner or managing director of a company—is pretty invisible in terms of your chances. What networking does is, firstly, a safety net in terms of it makes sure that you aren\u0026rsquo;t left within the cracks between submitting an application and getting a video interview or getting an interview. But to me, the network gave me informational value. It allowed me to say really unique things that people wouldn\u0026rsquo;t know because McKinsey, for example, aren\u0026rsquo;t going to be advertising the day-to-day life of a consultant, both the good and the bad, on the front page of their website.\nI could talk to a third-year consultant or a Macquarie investment banking analyst and understand what was happening day to day and which new developments were emerging. That information boosted my interview chances because I spoke as if I were already a graduate at McKinsey, Goldman or Macquarie.\nI think it comes down to: after you\u0026rsquo;ve done your first-degree list, think about whether you really need to talk to more people. If you do need to talk to more people, firstly, don\u0026rsquo;t be coy about it. Feel fine to go talk to a hiring manager and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I don\u0026rsquo;t know anybody at the firm currently. I would love if you can connect me with someone.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s exactly what I did for McKinsey. I was lucky enough that one of the McKinsey hiring managers also hired me at Macquarie.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t know any consultants at McKinsey prior to applying. I said, \u0026ldquo;Hey Margarita, I don\u0026rsquo;t know anyone at the firm. Could I get connected to one individual?\u0026rdquo; Him and I had a great chat. He was like, without me even asking, \u0026ldquo;Cheran, I\u0026rsquo;ve got a really good mate. I want you to speak to him as well.\u0026rdquo;\nThat snowball keeps going until you\u0026rsquo;ve met five, ten people. But each incremental connection off of that needs to come from a place of: okay, we have this common background or interest, or there\u0026rsquo;s a really specific reason why I want to talk to you as opposed to the other 30 grads I could have talked to. That might be because they work in a particular team, or they may come from a similar socioeconomic, LGBTQ, racial, or whatever background. Showing that common interest is what really helps you get your network going.\nUltimately, now that I\u0026rsquo;m at the end of my grad process and everything\u0026rsquo;s done, I don\u0026rsquo;t think about outcome value anymore. I\u0026rsquo;m very privileged in the sense that I had a positive outcome as to where I\u0026rsquo;ve ended up. All of the people I\u0026rsquo;ve met are informational value people because even people at the Boston Consulting Group, where I ended up not going, a lot of the people I\u0026rsquo;ve met there are still very happy to grab coffee with me and so forth to help me as I move forward.\nThe value of university clubs in creating connections # James: Can you speak to the importance of—because a lot of the first-degree connections that you had in different places you met at either university or maybe through other people—what is the value of university clubs at university? Is there value in the actual participation or is it more of just a great way to connect with people that are on a similar journey to yourself?\nCheran: I think it\u0026rsquo;s a bit of both. Without a doubt, the biggest value is the people you\u0026rsquo;ve met and the connections you make. They may be your best friend. They may become your partner. They may just be a person you work with in the future. Of course join the local business society. I\u0026rsquo;ll plug the Financial Management Association of Australia or 180 Degrees Consulting. All of those are good ways just to meet a bunch of different people in your own year group.\nBeing part of the committees takes you to the next step of meeting people in the years above who have been through what you\u0026rsquo;re now experiencing. Many clubs and societies run mentorship programs that connect you with people one or two years ahead at university or recent graduates. For me, that was invaluable. I would not be close to where I am now without having joined the FMAA or 180 Degrees—not because they appeared on my CV, but because I knew people who could advise and help me when the time was right.\nThose connections are invaluable. The incremental step up in terms of taking responsibility—I don\u0026rsquo;t think that\u0026rsquo;s a networking thing anymore. That\u0026rsquo;s more just building your own teamwork skills and of course it gives you substance to talk about for those behavioural questions.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear. I was in 180 in my final year of university and I agree that the kinds of people I met there—really super interesting people—have gone on to do really cool things. It\u0026rsquo;s great to build your relationships in that light.\nCommon areas in job applications that people get stuck on # James: What do you think are some of the areas of the application process that people underestimate the difficulty of? Common areas that people get tripped up?\nCheran: There are a few things. The big one is underestimating the time required to perform at your peak during each stage of the application process. Suppose summer-banking applications close in the first week of August. This may scare some people applying now, but in reality you need to submit at least two, perhaps three, weeks earlier to have a chance.\nIf it was me, I\u0026rsquo;d be getting it in three weeks prior. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you get it in three weeks prior. That means you have three weeks between when you click submit and when you click your interview slot, if you\u0026rsquo;re lucky enough to get one, to do your psychometrics, do your video interview, and start preparing for interviews without the knowledge of whether you\u0026rsquo;re going to get an interview or not.\nIf you think you can do that for 20 banks in three weeks and perform at your peak for each of those processes, then I want to meet you because you\u0026rsquo;re Superman or Superwoman.\nThat was the big lesson for me. I failed psychometric tests and video interviews because I rushed them and didn\u0026rsquo;t allow enough time to prepare properly.\nMy preparation is probably extreme. For psychometric tests, I\u0026rsquo;d identify the provider, normally Cubiks or SHL. I\u0026rsquo;d spend an hour watching YouTube videos of people solving the games, read Reddit to learn what trips people up, complete all the practice tests and then treat it as an exam. People don\u0026rsquo;t realise how competitive these processes are. The hurdle rate is so high, yet people take the tests for granted until they lose out at the psychometric stage. That happened to me numerous times before I learnt to take them seriously.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the first thing I\u0026rsquo;d alert people to. The other is that, at the interview stage, candidates tend to show why they\u0026rsquo;re the best choice right now. The hard reality is that companies care about 12, 24 or 72 months from now. They\u0026rsquo;re choosing a cohort of people who will peak in the future.\nThat means it\u0026rsquo;s okay to say, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know the answer,\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not sure,\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I made this mistake.\u0026rdquo; Showing weakness is crucial to success in these interviews. It demonstrates coachability: most of these jobs are team-based, so employers want students who can listen to more experienced people. It also shows the potential to improve and peak in the future.\nOnce you get that into your head, it becomes a humbling experience, but it also makes sure you don\u0026rsquo;t fall into the trap of being too cocky or too boastful—which is where I think a lot of students fall away. They have all this knowledge in their head, they have all these experiences they\u0026rsquo;ve done, and they\u0026rsquo;re bursting to show what it means. That sometimes comes off the wrong way.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really interesting to hear what you had to say—goldmine of information. I don\u0026rsquo;t really have much to offer. I\u0026rsquo;m just interested to keep asking you stuff.\nCheran: I say you apply for a whole bunch of stuff.\nCheran\u0026rsquo;s Biggest Learning # James: Now you\u0026rsquo;re at a point where a lot of this time spent applying is in the past for you, at least in the immediate term. What has been the biggest learning for yourself over the last year to 18 months as you\u0026rsquo;ve gone through this journey?\nCheran: Good question. I think the biggest learning is to care less—and I\u0026rsquo;m so conscious of the privilege in this statement—but to care less about the outcome and to care more about the journey and the incremental task. That\u0026rsquo;s way more important than some job that you\u0026rsquo;re going to get in 12 to 18 months\u0026rsquo; time.\nI struggled. I was deeply unhappy at various points of university because I thought I wasn\u0026rsquo;t keeping up on the hedonic treadmill of internships that other students were. I already know I can hear my own mates screaming at me listening to this, saying, \u0026ldquo;We all wish we were on your level of the hedonic treadmill,\u0026rdquo; but there\u0026rsquo;s always someone who\u0026rsquo;s further ahead. That can eat away at you a lot if you aren\u0026rsquo;t careful with it. That would be my biggest learning.\nWe might end up talking about how I\u0026rsquo;ve gone from banking to consulting in the end—that last experience is probably the one that\u0026rsquo;s told me that the most.\nI think the other thing is being self-aware enough to know that luck is a huge, huge factor in these processes, both on the upside and the downside. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean I can\u0026rsquo;t say I deserve it or I worked hard enough to get X, Y, Z. But that isn\u0026rsquo;t a mutually exclusive statement from \u0026ldquo;I was lucky to some extent—to not have been screened out, to have shown that I can do whatever it is.\u0026rdquo;\nYou want to put yourself in that position where you recognise that luck is a factor. Recognising that it\u0026rsquo;s a factor, you can sleep at night knowing that there\u0026rsquo;s nothing else you could have done to have influenced the outcome. If you\u0026rsquo;re at that stage, that\u0026rsquo;s all you can do. But if you\u0026rsquo;re at a stage where you\u0026rsquo;re almost having to blame luck because of an unfortunate outcome, you don\u0026rsquo;t want to be at that stage because that\u0026rsquo;s where regret starts eating away.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s one bank that I was interested in and it didn\u0026rsquo;t go through, but I knew I could not have done anything else I wanted to do. I knew the perception from that interview or that day was the reason why, and that\u0026rsquo;s perfectly okay. I\u0026rsquo;m at peace with that. If you can find peace in that journey, I think it helps you a lot.\nJames: When people get a disappointing outcome, they can blame the downside on luck while attributing the upside to hard work.\nCheran: Always happens. Always happens.\nJames: \u0026ldquo;I got this job because I worked hard\u0026rdquo; and \u0026ldquo;I didn\u0026rsquo;t get it because I was unlucky.\u0026rdquo;\nCheran: Oh, it\u0026rsquo;s unlucky. Yep.\nJames: Taking ownership of what you did and the outcomes you expected and then letting go of whatever happens after that—it will be what it will be. It can be difficult to approach things like that.\nCheran: It can be hugely difficult. After a string of winter failures last year, I wrote on the whiteboard in front of me, \u0026ldquo;Be so good they can\u0026rsquo;t ignore you.\u0026rdquo; I can\u0026rsquo;t remember who said it, but I\u0026rsquo;ve applied that mentality throughout my life: be good enough, don\u0026rsquo;t make excuses and work as hard as you can. Anything else is outside your control. That\u0026rsquo;s all you need to sleep well at night—plus a loving family, friends and those sorts of things.\nJames: Absolutely. It\u0026rsquo;s important. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about the failures, the things you hoped would go well—I guess with regard to the winters and things like that—but what has been something that didn\u0026rsquo;t go to plan along this whole journey that ended up being something that really benefited you before you got to the end? Is there perhaps another situation along the way that ended up being something you were frustrated by at the time but ended up turning out really well?\nCheran\u0026rsquo;s failure that ended up being a success # Cheran: I\u0026rsquo;m really happy talking about this one because I don\u0026rsquo;t think when I was going through this process I knew anyone else who had been through the same.\nI was at Macquarie Capital over summer. Loved the experience there. I was in the TMT team—instead of Technology, Media, Entertainment, and Telecommunications team—really loved the culture and the team. I was pretty set on going back to Macquarie and most likely staying afterwards.\nIt was about 5:00 PM on a Wednesday, a week after the internship had finished. I was writing my McKinsey cover letter when HR called and said, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re really sorry that we aren\u0026rsquo;t going to offer you a graduate position at this stage.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d felt it in my gut for a few days, but it was still a big shock and disappointment.\nThe nervousness kicked in straight away. What was I going to do now? I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have a graduate job to come back to, and exchange was off the cards. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t see myself being able to do all these things.\nIt took me a while to step back and say, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t have a graduate job. I\u0026rsquo;m in the middle of consulting processes, and I can apply for banking graduate roles in a few weeks.\u0026rdquo; I messaged my friend Blake M, whom you\u0026rsquo;ll know from Next Chapter, and said, \u0026ldquo;FYI, I\u0026rsquo;m going all in on these consulting processes. Let\u0026rsquo;s see what happens.\u0026rdquo;\nI\u0026rsquo;d never seriously considered consulting and thought I preferred banking after working there for more than a year. With about two weeks left in the consulting application processes, I committed to them. A month later, I was fortunate enough to have several offers. I then took time to consider, without rose-tinted glasses, whether I wanted to go into banking.\nI did my diligence. I spent about six weeks—and we can talk about this as well in terms of post-offer decision-making—spent six weeks talking to bankers, consultants, a whole bunch of people, saying: this is where I want to be in five to ten years\u0026rsquo; time, which is either on the investing side of things at a VC or as an operator. What\u0026rsquo;s going to be the best way for me to get there?\nAfter a lot of conversations, I was pretty confident that consulting was the way to go. I ended up not applying to banking again for the graduate roles.\nI was always going to apply to McKinsey, BCG, Bain regardless of Macquarie, but I think Macquarie—the failure at Macquarie gave me a big kick up the backside to recognise: number one, I didn\u0026rsquo;t agree with all of the reasons and outcomes that they gave me, but I learned a lot about the need for clearer communication and balancing numerous demands, working from home, saying no—there was a lot of valuable feedback I took away from the team.\nBut I think the other thing is that we don\u0026rsquo;t talk about failure enough. When I got that initial call, I called my buddy and I asked her, and she straightaway said, \u0026ldquo;Cheran, there are people at Goldman and Morgan Stanley and other banks who have also been through the exact same thing, but no one ever talks about it because they just don\u0026rsquo;t really want to.\u0026rdquo;\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s the shame. The failures don\u0026rsquo;t matter as long as they\u0026rsquo;re manageable failures. Ray Dalio always talks about the idea of micro failures and macro wins. For me, this was a micro failure—okay, I didn\u0026rsquo;t get my graduate job at Macquarie—but I\u0026rsquo;m not looking back in five years\u0026rsquo; time talking about it as a macro failure. It\u0026rsquo;s essentially a completely different path that might set me up better. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to put a positive spin on failure sometimes, but it was a big learning curve for me and everything happens for a reason.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;re spot on there. I totally agree with what you said. It\u0026rsquo;s often, especially with these kinds of things, you look out and it seems like everyone\u0026rsquo;s just had the perfect journey, nothing went wrong, and they just sailed through and everything went exactly to plan. When almost universally, that\u0026rsquo;s not the case.\nCheran: You go on LinkedIn and you just see a progression of one thing to the next to the next. But I think if we all restructured our LinkedIns to say, \u0026ldquo;You got this job and then failed at five others in between, and then got this job,\u0026rdquo; I think everyone would be feeling a little bit better about themselves. It\u0026rsquo;s about high time that we just made that a bit more public.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve seen this idea of an anti-resume where you have all the places you didn\u0026rsquo;t get into as a separate thing.\nCheran: Bessemer Venture Partners—one of the big SaaS investors in the US—have an anti-portfolio where they essentially have on their page a list of companies that they didn\u0026rsquo;t invest in, that they passed on. I think a lot of other VCs have tried to do a similar thing.\nIt reflects the same sentiment: let\u0026rsquo;s be more open about this, let\u0026rsquo;s talk about those failures, because in reality it\u0026rsquo;s not all the way up and to the right curve. Much like the market, it\u0026rsquo;s up one day, down the next. It\u0026rsquo;s good to make that more transparent.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;re spot on there and I appreciate you sharing that story. When you\u0026rsquo;ve worked so hard for something, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to face that. Like you said, you overcame it really well and it\u0026rsquo;s ended up working potentially better than going down the original path.\nCheran: We\u0026rsquo;ll find out in a few years\u0026rsquo; time.\nThe Post Interview Decision Process # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love to talk about the post-interview decision process and what you went through there, speaking to heaps of people to try and work out what this looks like for you. One thing I want to mention is I think it\u0026rsquo;s really great that you have a view of where you want to be in 10 years. I think myself to some extent and many people out there don\u0026rsquo;t have that. It\u0026rsquo;s hard then to filter which opportunities are good and which maybe aren\u0026rsquo;t. If you get offered something, should you say yes or no? Having that as a filter, a way to decide things, is really cool. I just want to mention that. I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive into this process of what you did once you had some of the offers available.\nCheran: Off what you just mentioned, I\u0026rsquo;ll just qualify it to say it\u0026rsquo;s good to have a plan, but it shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be set in stone. I was fairly set I was going to end up in investment banking, and look what\u0026rsquo;s happened there. In the same way that I was fairly certain that I would end up in law and fairly sure I\u0026rsquo;d end up in politics. These things all need to be movable and flexible.\nFor me, the post-interview decision-making process: I have no doubt in my mind that I was probably one of the last people to sign the McKinsey contract. I took a long time, I think six or seven weeks in the end. I think candidates should feel absolutely no pressure to sign within deadlines. I know investment banking is a bit different sometimes—they give you a week and that\u0026rsquo;s it.\nNaval Ravikant, a famous angel investor, talks about three big decisions in your twenties: where you\u0026rsquo;ll live, who you\u0026rsquo;ll be with and what your job is. You should take your time on all three.\nAs to my actual process: the first thing I did was I sat down and I thought about what mattered to me from a rubric sense and tried to rank those. It might be things like pay, prestige, exit opportunities, opportunity to work overseas, learning and development, training—any factor that you think is relevant. What you want to do is figure out what matters to you and what doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter to you.\nFor me—and I acknowledge the enormous privilege in saying this—pay was at the bottom of the list. It was a massive pay cut. Bankers often said of moving from banking to consulting, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re working similar hours for half the pay.\u0026rdquo; I was aware of that. If I\u0026rsquo;m going to experience a material change in wealth, it won\u0026rsquo;t be because I earned an extra $300,000 in my first two years. It will be because I met a certain person or started a business that created a massive change in 10 or 20 years.\nThink about the factors that matter to you. This is really important for people to remember. We talk about when it comes to working out or otherwise, but short-term pain, long-term gain is a big thing. I think we undervalue the effect of compounding a lot. That\u0026rsquo;s why a short-term cash stipend or the opportunity to go overseas immediately versus training, networks, development over five years—you have to discount those back, whether you\u0026rsquo;re a discounted cashflow person or not. You have to discount those back to some present value and understand what that value means to you.\nThat was the first stage. The second stage then was: leverage your success—talk to as many different people as possible. I probably ended up talking to about 50 consultants across McKinsey and BCG. I had three buckets of people I wanted to talk to, and this is how I phrased it when I asked for connections.\nNumber one: I want to talk to people who had received offers from both firms and had chosen one or the other. Two: I wanted to talk to people who had come from investment banking or previously been in banking or considered banking and then come to consulting. And then the third bucket was: I want to talk to people who had left—alumni essentially.\nBoth consulting firms were happy to connect me with those people. After a while, you hear very similar things. You take everything with a grain of salt because everyone has a vested interest in drawing you towards their company.\nI had like a 30-page document by the end of the six weeks with all the notes I\u0026rsquo;d taken from all those people. I sat down one Sunday afternoon. I already pretty much knew my decision, but I went through all of those notes, linked them back to my various decision factors, and ticked the box between the two firms. It came up pretty overwhelmingly clear.\nThat was my decision-making process. It is a very consultanty process. I\u0026rsquo;m completely aware of that. For me, it was really structured.\nIt links back to—this is something I\u0026rsquo;ve started only in the last maybe nine months or so—but your decision journal, I think, is so important. Whenever—say I\u0026rsquo;m at McKinsey in 12 months or 18 months\u0026rsquo; time and I\u0026rsquo;m going through a rough patch and I\u0026rsquo;m questioning why I\u0026rsquo;m there—I can go back to that decision frame, the notes that I took, and say: these were the reasons I chose this job. Is that still true? If it isn\u0026rsquo;t true, why am I still here? And then make that decision again.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s so important to have a decision journal for every decision in life, whether it\u0026rsquo;s who you want to date or what restaurant you want to go to or whatever it is—but ideally it\u0026rsquo;s the bigger decisions in life. For me, it was really important just to have that bolted down.\nAt least talking from a consulting perspective, take your time and don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to ask, because companies who want you and have given you an offer will be happy generally to connect you to the people you want to meet.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. It\u0026rsquo;s really interesting to hear how you approach it. Having those criteria—I know I\u0026rsquo;ve done that for the big decisions that I\u0026rsquo;ve made, like going on exchange. I did that where I was like, \u0026ldquo;What are the pros and cons of this?\u0026rdquo;\nCheran: Cons: empty bank account.\nJames: That was the only con: I had no money left. But I got to see the world and have all these fun experiences. I was young, so it made sense.\nCheran: Exactly.\nJames: Tying it to a medium- or long-term vision of what you want your life to look like gives you criteria for evaluating important decisions, including your first job out of university. I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool.\nWhat questions did Cheran ask in his post offer decision process? # James: Which questions did you ask during this process? You met consultants who currently worked at the firms or had recently left. Which themes helped you learn about the company, its culture and its opportunities? I imagine you could ask similar questions during recruitment.\nCheran: When it came to post-decision-making, many of these consultants had already been debriefed. They approached the conversation thinking, \u0026ldquo;Cheran is choosing between McKinsey and X firm. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to convince him to come to X.\u0026rdquo;\nThat being said, the questions were still quite similar even before I had got offers. A lot of the questions were: Why have you come to X? I saw you\u0026rsquo;ve done X previously—what was the framework around that? Why did you leave that job? Why are you still here?\nThe value for your listeners probably comes from some of the nature of questions to ask. I had a few that I always asked, probably for conversations after offers.\nThe first one I always asked was: what were the decision factors that you were thinking about when you made your decision? 90% of the time they aligned with the same things I was thinking about—learning and development, offshore opportunities, pay if it was a material factor or not. But every now and then there would be one consultant who\u0026rsquo;d say some factor that I hadn\u0026rsquo;t thought of at all. Often it would be a very niche industry that they were interested in, for example. McKinsey has programs like the McK Health Institute, and there was one consultant who had come specifically for that. All those sorts of things as well.\nThe question I asked everyone, including during the interview, was, \u0026ldquo;What are the characteristics of the best business analysts at McKinsey?\u0026rdquo; A business analyst is the entry-level position at McKinsey. I asked the equivalent about associates at BCG or banking analysts at Macquarie and Goldman.\nThat question shows, firstly, that you want to be the best. Secondly, you\u0026rsquo;re thinking two steps beyond what you\u0026rsquo;re applying for. You aren\u0026rsquo;t only asking about an internship; you\u0026rsquo;re asking, \u0026ldquo;I want to be an investment banking analyst at Macquarie as a graduate. Which characteristics could I develop now to prepare for that role in 18 months?\u0026rdquo;\nMost of the time that question was followed by about 15 seconds of silence because no one had ever asked them that before. Then they\u0026rsquo;d think, \u0026ldquo;Okay, well, there\u0026rsquo;s this one junior on my team who I think is really great and these are the things that he does.\u0026rdquo; That was a really nice way to get that conversation going.\nThose were the main questions I asked. The rest of the conversation would riff on personal life. I\u0026rsquo;m a big Formula One fan, and there are two consultants at McKinsey—one formerly at Red Bull and one at Ferrari—so we could talk about that for ages.\nJames: Asking the right questions is so important. That question shows you\u0026rsquo;re interested, gives the interviewer something meaningful to answer and tells you what to develop. During an interview, you could perhaps respond with an example of when you demonstrated those traits.\nWhat drives Cheran # James: I want to ask—perhaps we\u0026rsquo;re getting to the end, so maybe two more things I\u0026rsquo;d like to ask you. One is: I\u0026rsquo;m interested because you\u0026rsquo;re a high-performing person.\nCheran: Appreciate that.\nJames: You do a lot of things really well. I\u0026rsquo;m interested to know what drives you on a daily basis? Why do you go out and achieve? Are there any reasons that you can put to that? How do you think about that?\nCheran: That\u0026rsquo;s a really good question. If I\u0026rsquo;m being completely real, it\u0026rsquo;s a fear of mediocrity. I think that\u0026rsquo;s something that a lot of people can probably resonate with. It comes from a place—my parents both came from a not-so-great time in the world and were fairly middle-class. I see how hard they worked.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s part of me that\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;Well, you better ace this life because there\u0026rsquo;s only one chance to do it.\u0026rdquo; If I were to look at myself and say—much like when we were talking about the concept of luck—luck is going to exist in the world. But if you put yourself in a position where there\u0026rsquo;s nothing more that you could have done, then you sleep well at night.\nIf I extend that out over my entire life, I\u0026rsquo;d want to wake up every day knowing that there have been no regrets and that I haven\u0026rsquo;t wasted potential. This is a complete tangent, but I remember in Year 5 English or something, I didn\u0026rsquo;t get the English award for something and I was pretty disappointed in it. I remember my Year 5 teacher saying, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve got so much potential. It would be worthless if you didn\u0026rsquo;t tap into it once in a while.\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s stuck with me ever since, because that\u0026rsquo;s something you don\u0026rsquo;t really want. If you can perform at your best and that\u0026rsquo;s all you can do, then I think that\u0026rsquo;s what drives me every day.\nI also get deep satisfaction from the idea of eventually having a career in social impact. Chamath Palihapitiya, an American-Canadian investor, often says that money drives the world, whether you like it or not. Affecting social change requires command of capital at some stage.\nI have a strong drive to marry my interest in venture capital with my interests in longevity, biotech and life sciences. I\u0026rsquo;m not smart enough to do the chemistry or engineering, but I could help with capital allocation. That\u0026rsquo;s what drives me every day: taking my skills and using them to have the best influence on the people around me.\nJames: Thanks so much for sharing that. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear what you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about. Having a positive impact on the world and creating the ability to do that in the future is admirable. I look forward to following your journey and seeing the impact you have.\nCheran: Come back to me in 30 years and we\u0026rsquo;ll see.\nCherans Advice # James: Fantastic. I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question for you, Cheran. This is a question I ask all the guests that come on the show. If you could go back to when you were first starting university and entering this journey of discovering the different opportunities that are awaiting you, what advice would you give to someone that\u0026rsquo;s perhaps now just starting out on their journey?\nCheran: I\u0026rsquo;ve always had three things—have to keep it very structured as a future consultant.\nThe first one would be: do things your own way. I\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned the phrase \u0026ldquo;hedonic treadmill\u0026rdquo; a few times now, but it\u0026rsquo;s very easy—and I know that I am a person who subjects this on others—you see the LinkedIns of other people and you say, \u0026ldquo;By doing this, you got to this. By doing that, he got to there.\u0026rdquo; Have a consciousness that there are a million ways to get to where you want to be. Be driven enough that you pursue goals. If you are pursuing roles and titles and whatever it is, that\u0026rsquo;s fine, but don\u0026rsquo;t be so driven that you forget to stop and smell the roses on the way.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t forget about the reasons why you\u0026rsquo;ve done that journey. I\u0026rsquo;m not ending up in banking, but I\u0026rsquo;m still glad I\u0026rsquo;ve spent one and a half years in banking because that\u0026rsquo;s taught me a whole skill set of things. If I was so focused on the outcome, I\u0026rsquo;d think that was a waste, which it certainly isn\u0026rsquo;t. Do things your way.\nSecond thing: nobody cares. That sounds rather flippant. What I mean by that is genuinely, nobody cares about so many of the failures that we have on a daily basis. I remember seeing this visualisation once: if you imagine two concentric circles—you have one circle and then you have a little small circle in the middle of it—that small circle is how much other people think about you, and all the space around it is how much you think about other people thinking about you.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s just the reality. Literally nobody cares. Everyone has their own issues and problems to sort through. It\u0026rsquo;s very liberating once you realise that, because all of a sudden you\u0026rsquo;re just focused on your own happiness and your personal pursuit of your goals. That\u0026rsquo;s all you need in life. Life is already tough enough without worrying about what other people think or what\u0026rsquo;s going to be the impact of you not getting X or not being at this stage in life. Especially when you surround yourself in a high-achieving academic background of students and cohorts, as the universities you and I have been to, it gets very easy to fall into that mindset.\nThe last thing I would say is that life will generally be okay. This links back to \u0026ldquo;nobody cares.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;ve said this a lot. It\u0026rsquo;s graduate season at the moment. A lot of students in the years below, some students that I tutor at university, have been really stressed and worried about applications.\nRemember that everybody peaks at a certain period of time and that\u0026rsquo;s not going to be 22 for everybody. It would be rather sad if you peak at 22. Just remember that the vast majority of your listeners and the people who are part of this community have lived in a time which has never been better than any time before. Number one.\nAnd second, generally, if you work hard enough, if you don\u0026rsquo;t let luck impact everything in your life, you will be okay. You will get to where you want to eventually. There\u0026rsquo;s no rush in life in terms of reaching certain goals. Just because it seems like the vast majority of people reach goals within a certain period of time doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean that you have to be part of that as well. There are countless numbers of people—Reid Hoffman is a prime example—who reached their peak successes and their first successes in their forties and fifties.\nThat would be my three pieces of advice: do things your own way, nobody cares, and it\u0026rsquo;ll all be okay, James. It\u0026rsquo;ll all be okay.\nWhere to contact Cheran # James: Amazing. That\u0026rsquo;s really cool advice. Thanks so much for sharing that with us, Cheran. I think if people can really take that to heart, it\u0026rsquo;ll help set them up for a more interesting and successful life. Thanks so much for sharing that with us today.\nIf people listening want to go and find out more about yourself—perhaps they\u0026rsquo;ve now heard your fantastic advice on applying for roles in various different places—where is the best place for them to go and find out more about you?\nCheran: LinkedIn, my name straight on there—one letter short of dinosaurs. Please just message me if there\u0026rsquo;s anything that I can help with. Otherwise I\u0026rsquo;m on Twitter as well: CheranK7. Probably those two places.\nJames: Fantastic. We\u0026rsquo;ll direct people there. Thanks so much for coming on the pod today, Cheran. It\u0026rsquo;s been really cool digging into all the things you think about. Thanks so much.\nCheran: Thanks, James. This was fun.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways, the things that I learned from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 35\n","date":"20 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/35-cheran-ketheesuran/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 35\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Cheran Ketheesuran | On The Journey To Banking and Consulting Graduate Roles","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → From Banking in Australia to Crypto advisory and now CEO of a startup in Silicon Valley, today\u0026rsquo;s guest has seen a lot.\nIn this week\u0026rsquo;s episode, you will learn about how hardships can shape you and build your character.\nIf you like what you see, subscribe to this newsletter and get emails like this, every week.👇\nSubscribe Now\nRobby Wade is a former banking manager, who is on a mission to revolutionise the industry of chat.\nHe’s a former COO of Vid, and Founding Partner at asset investment group, Nebula Partners, and now CEO and Co-Founder of ThisApp.\n🤝 Connect with Robby # ThisApp - https://this.so/\nLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/robby-wade/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # It’s Nice to Know What Sucks # When speaking with Robby, he highlighted his experience working at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s.\nHe said that it was extremely difficult, even more difficult than his current role as CEO of his startup.\nHaving these difficult experiences allows him to have perspective when approaching situations in his life today.\nAnd so you kind of, it\u0026rsquo;s sort of nice to know what sucks. Those people that grow up in low socioeconomic environments, they\u0026rsquo;re incredibly hard and they appreciate what they have. I think you can kind of artificially create that by having a shitty job at some point in your life. It\u0026rsquo;s important to give you perspective later on when you\u0026rsquo;re working in different environments.\nHe expanded on this with his story of running. Running long distances and doing hard things like skydiving help Robby to put simple things like Zoom calls into perspective.\nDoing hard things helps us to make the hard things easier.\n“Hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life.” - Jerzy Gregorek.\nBuild Your Relationship with Fear # Robby shared with us his struggles with anxiety. He said they were very difficult but also helpful in providing him insight into what it is like to deal with these kinds of problems.\nRobby struggled, but he used these experiences to stretch himself.\nHe began testing himself and pushing the limits of what he was afraid of.\nHe went from an anxious young adult to a solo skydiver.\nWhat a transformation.\nRobby is a great example of what we are all capable of. If there are things holding you back, you can push past them and create the life that you want.\nRead and Run # Robby\u0026rsquo;s final advice to us what that we should do these two things every day.\nRead Run Even if we just start at one page and one kilometre, it is a near certainty that your life will improve.\nYou will be learning from the best mentors in the world, while also getting yourself into excellent physical condition.\nA strong mind and strong body is a recipe for an effective and enjoyable experience in life.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Robby Wade 00:18 Intro 00:51 Robby\u0026rsquo;s Journey from NAB to Silicon Valley 06:01 What Robby learnt from Crypto Advisory 08:24 Robby\u0026rsquo;s ThisApp story 16:11 What keeps Robby going 27:38 Robby\u0026rsquo;s Learning Journey and Engineering 34:41 Failures that turned out to be a success 45:22 Robby\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates 47:24 Contact Robby 48:22 Outro\n","date":"13 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/34-robby-wade/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → From Banking in Australia to Crypto advisory and now CEO of a startup in Silicon Valley, today’s guest has seen a lot.\n","title":"Robby Wade | On the Importance of Perspective","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 34\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nRobby Wade: I run a startup now where people ask, \u0026ldquo;How do you take on all this stress?\u0026rdquo; Running a shift on Friday night and trying to keep the drive-through clear is the most intense shit you could ever go through in your entire life.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is a former banking manager who\u0026rsquo;s on a mission to revolutionise the industry of chat.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s a former CEO of Vid and a founding partner at asset management group Nebula Ventures. He\u0026rsquo;s now the CEO and co-founder of ThisApp, an all-in-one chat platform that makes it easy to connect with anyone and organise anything. Please welcome to the show today, Robby.\nRobby Wade: James, thanks for the kind intro. I appreciate you preparing that.\nRobby\u0026rsquo;s Journey from NAB to Silicon Valley # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love to wind back the clock to when you left university and started working. You used to work at NAB, and now you\u0026rsquo;re a CEO in Silicon Valley—it\u0026rsquo;s quite a unique trajectory. What happened after you left NAB and began trying other things? How did that story start?\nRobby Wade: I\u0026rsquo;ll go back a little to offer more context. My parents had a small business while we were growing up. We grew up in their factory, driving around in forklifts. They sold gas and wood heaters in winter, and solar hot-water systems in summer.\nI quickly realised that I never wanted to run a business. We would be there seven days a week, working with them and helping unload trucks. I went to university and studied economics and finance for three years, but didn\u0026rsquo;t graduate.\nI had about four or five subjects to go and I was working as a teller at NAB at the time and got offered a job in the private bank. That required a degree to get into that job. I ended up in this weird position where I had a job that required a degree, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t have a degree yet.\nI kept getting promoted and progressing through my career. It reached a point where I thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I need the degree for,\u0026rdquo; because I\u0026rsquo;d already got the job. A degree is supposed to get you your first job, but once you have a job that requires one, no one asks for it again.\nI spent a lot of money and didn\u0026rsquo;t end up with the piece of paper. I did a lot of work. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t one of those romantic uni dropouts. I worked incredibly hard over three years to try to finish that off. I got the job, which is the good part. I went back to uni to ask them if I could do a test or something and just get my certificate. Unfortunately that wasn\u0026rsquo;t the case.\nTo answer your question more directly, I\u0026rsquo;d been working at NAB for quite some time and I had been investing in cryptocurrency. A good friend got me into cryptocurrency quite early. This was around late 2015 or early 2016.\nIn the bank back then, if you think cryptocurrency is controversial now, back then it was even more so—for drug dealers, people who were buying drugs and all of those kinds of things. There were very few people in the bank that were involved in crypto.\nMy business partner in Nebula Ventures, James Kouzinas, started an advisory firm. He got an opportunity with a few overseas clients and invited me to join him because I was the only other person he knew who understood crypto.\nWe were advising cryptocurrency companies, making pitch decks and financial models. One day I was working at the bank, having the time of my life and living in Sydney. I worked at NAB during the glory days of banking.\nOne of my old bosses said it wasn\u0026rsquo;t a job, it was a lifestyle. We went to lunch with clients and built really good friendships with them. It was an incredible experience for me. That experience there led to fundraising later as a startup, because I worked in the private bank at NAB, so I got to be around a lot of high net worth individuals.\nI learnt how to interact, speak and build relationships with them. You realise that rich and successful people are like you. They have the same problems, and you have to be normal around them. That was an incredibly important part of my journey.\nThen all of a sudden I quit my job. We were on a plane to the first client we had where we met them in Europe. We flew all around Europe and then went to Asia, ended up in the States and did various different speaking gigs and worked with different clients who were launching tokens.\nIt was an absolute whirlwind. I didn\u0026rsquo;t grow up as your typical entrepreneur; I was the opposite. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t started selling T-shirts on my own. I was averse to entrepreneurship because I\u0026rsquo;d grown up in an environment where you were constantly working in the business.\nBut there\u0026rsquo;s a saying—\u0026ldquo;mirror, mirror on the wall, I\u0026rsquo;m like my father after all\u0026rdquo; or whatever it may be. In some capacity it was in my blood, and once I took that dive, it just never stopped. Do you want me to keep going through to how ThisApp came to be?\nWhat Robby learnt from Crypto Advisory # James: Maybe we\u0026rsquo;ll pause and ask you to go into some of that in a bit more detail. Travelling around and meeting all those people—do you still use those kinds of skills? You said you learnt a lot about how to operate around certain individuals. And I guess the pitching you saw when you were doing crypto parallels what you do now as well.\nRobby Wade: It\u0026rsquo;s not that different. When you\u0026rsquo;re in a bank trying to get a high-net-worth individual to invest in one of its products, refinance their loans through your business, restructure their family portfolio or build a relationship, you use exactly the same skills needed to get investors into ThisApp.\nVery recently we weren\u0026rsquo;t originally going to introduce the concept of the token as early as we did in ThisApp. Then Web3 had accelerated over the last year or two in the venture funding space. All of a sudden I had to write some token economics and write a token paper and whatnot, but I\u0026rsquo;d done that in my advisory business. That\u0026rsquo;s what we used to do for companies. We used to build their burn rates and their cap tables. Bringing that into our company now, all of those skills have definitely transcended over.\nThe funny thing is that you don\u0026rsquo;t realise it\u0026rsquo;s happening along the way; it slowly manifests. I take pride in building very deep relationships with our investor base. It\u0026rsquo;s an uncommon experience for them because I\u0026rsquo;ve gone out of my way to build deep friendships.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t do that for any reason other than it\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve always done. At the bank, our job was to maintain relationships with high-net-worth individuals. Many have remained friends because of the depth of those relationships, and I\u0026rsquo;ve continued that process throughout my career.\nRobby\u0026rsquo;s ThisApp story # James: Tell me, I want to hear the story now of starting ThisApp. Crypto and all that stuff is really cool, but what was the thing that happened to get you there?\nRobby Wade: I\u0026rsquo;ll continue the story I was telling before, because it leads into ThisApp and requires a fair bit of context.\nRobby Wade: We did the advisory stuff for about a year and a half. Then we met Adam, who you\u0026rsquo;ve interviewed on the podcast before.\nAdam Geha is an incredible person who has changed my life and my business partner\u0026rsquo;s life in a number of ways. He said to us, \u0026ldquo;I think you two are great. Come and work for me.\u0026rdquo; We replied, \u0026ldquo;Look, man, we just quit our jobs, travelled the world and did all these amazing things. We don\u0026rsquo;t want to work for anyone.\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;How about we partner with you?\u0026rdquo;\nWe ended up partnering with Adam. The most humbling thing was that he invested in James and me rather than an idea. He said, \u0026ldquo;I really like you guys. I want you to find a business that you really like.\u0026rdquo; We worked with Adam on many interesting projects during that phase. In the end, we didn\u0026rsquo;t partner with him on a business, but he backed us for a couple of years, and that\u0026rsquo;s an investment I\u0026rsquo;ll never forget.\nHe invested in me as a human and I feel incredibly lucky to have had that opportunity because the experiences I had in that time were unbelievable in many different aspects. You\u0026rsquo;ve met Adam—he\u0026rsquo;s an incredibly deep person and there\u0026rsquo;s a lot to learn from him.\nWe did that and then I ended up going into a startup that I\u0026rsquo;d known from the crypto time. That was Vid. I went into Vid when there were only four or five people there. We grew that team to over 50 people. We launched our token on a couple of exchanges around the world. That was such a remarkable experience.\nI was a banker and then an adviser, always on the other side of the table from the builders. Vid was the first time I went deep into a company and became involved in the product.\nI was lucky enough to get the COO role—Chief Operating Officer—which, in an early-stage startup, means being the operations dude. It\u0026rsquo;s a fancy title for somebody who does all the stuff no one else wants to do: a glorified administrator. The good thing was that I had to be involved in marketing, legal, product, engineering and everything else. Because I had no preconceived notions or ego around what I already knew, I could immerse myself and learn immensely. I loved every second.\nVid was like one of those Silicon Valley experiences you see on television. We were in LA, living and working 12 hours a day in a big house with about 11 team members. It was insane. Influencers came to the house, while people made videos and coded in the living room.\nIt was a really cool experience to live and work in a house with the whole team. The CEO lived there too. It was the best and worst experience of my life. We never stopped working because we were always around our work. If you think remote work is bad, live-in work is completely different.\nIt was great. Then COVID came. The COVID bear market in crypto happened. The CEO decided to sell the company to a private equity firm.\nLA was a weird place when COVID began because people were loading up on ammunition and doing that American thing. I thought I\u0026rsquo;d return to Australia for two weeks, but stayed for 11 months. I had time to reflect on all the journeys I\u0026rsquo;d been on over the previous few years. Lockdown wasn\u0026rsquo;t that bad for me because I\u0026rsquo;d spent the previous year and a half working in the Vid house every day; it wasn\u0026rsquo;t unfamiliar.\nI took a few friends to my family\u0026rsquo;s farmhouse in Mystery Bay, five hours south of Sydney. We lived there among a population of about 60 people and got to enjoy our lives for a while. We weren\u0026rsquo;t in a big city with much tighter lockdowns, and the beaches were quiet.\nDuring that phase, I wanted to start something new. I\u0026rsquo;d noticed that the startup world has incredible communication tools. It\u0026rsquo;s often easier to communicate with your colleagues than with people in your personal life, so you tend to spend more time at work.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s easier for you and I to organise a podcast together in different time zones when we\u0026rsquo;ve never met than it is for my mum to organise a call with me. If you just think about that—she should just be able to press my icon at the top of WhatsApp, see what times suit me, put time in my calendar and catch up.\nPeople say your mum or your friends should just be able to call you out of the blue. Yes, that\u0026rsquo;s true. But if you call me and I\u0026rsquo;m in the middle of work or something, I\u0026rsquo;m not present. I focus to such an extent that it takes a little bit of unwinding to come out and focus on what someone\u0026rsquo;s saying.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t know if you have a similar experience. When someone calls while you\u0026rsquo;re coding, you answer but aren\u0026rsquo;t fully present. If they schedule with you, you stop what you\u0026rsquo;re doing to take the call. I\u0026rsquo;ve been working all day, but I saw that I had a call with you and stopped so I could be present and have a proper conversation. Scheduled conversations are undervalued.\nWe took that further. We asked: how do people organise events and trips, get together and communicate? How do we bring lessons from the business world about running a coherent team into social and family life?\nThe depth of relationships you build in startups and work—the reason is because you work on these projects together, you organise things together, you communicate efficiently together. How can we take these lessons and bring them down into this consumer social world, not make it feel worky, but take these principles and distil them down into an app?\nI\u0026rsquo;d also spent a bit of time—we had a team in China at Vid. I\u0026rsquo;d used WeChat a number of different times and I saw how inferior the chat products were in the West compared to how WeChat worked. I took a lot of lessons from that and brought them over.\nI know that was a long-winded answer, but I wanted to offer you the full context of how we ended up here.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so at the links in the show notes. The Graduate Theory newsletter comes out every single Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.\nBut without further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get back into it.\nWhat keeps Robby going # James: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting journey. Seeking to change chat is no easy feat. From my perspective, you\u0026rsquo;re taking on something huge: trying to become the best chat app in the West. How do you stay the course, and what drives you to persist with this goal?\nRobby Wade: It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting question because we\u0026rsquo;re going against the grain of what you should do in a startup. Everyone tells you to pick one small thing and monopolise its target audience: choose a niche and go into it.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re doing the opposite. I have a contrarian view of that idea and the lean startup methodology. There are hundreds of thousands of apps in the App Store, but you probably use only five or six each day or week.\nIf you look at the five or six that you use every single day, they probably do more than one thing. They\u0026rsquo;re usually multifunctional apps. Whether it\u0026rsquo;s Instagram or Facebook or whatever, they do two or three things or four things. What\u0026rsquo;s tending to happen is people are building these smaller products and then these bigger companies are just buying them. I found a lot of products that were being built weren\u0026rsquo;t really businesses. They were features.\nFor example, I don\u0026rsquo;t see split payments as something that should be a whole app. It\u0026rsquo;s a feature to me. I don\u0026rsquo;t see something like Calendly—it\u0026rsquo;s weird to me. It\u0026rsquo;s a feature that should just be inside Google Calendar. I don\u0026rsquo;t understand how that\u0026rsquo;s a standalone product. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t make any sense.\nI initially followed that methodology. The size of this challenge is exciting and makes you want to wake up and work on it every day. Now that we\u0026rsquo;ve designed the product, I can see that it needs to exist.\nWe haven\u0026rsquo;t picked these features out of thin air. Each is in sync with the others, and together they become greater than the sum of their parts. The iPhone isn\u0026rsquo;t simply a compass, internet access, an iPod and a phone. Combining those features unlocks experiences people couldn\u0026rsquo;t produce before because the connections didn\u0026rsquo;t exist.\nHow do we stay on track? It\u0026rsquo;s very difficult. I\u0026rsquo;ll be direct with you. The work is exciting enough to wake up for every day. You can tell people about the vision and investors get excited. Then you have to product-manage this beast and ask, \u0026ldquo;How are we going to get this done with our smaller team?\u0026rdquo;\nWith a tiny amount of funding that we\u0026rsquo;ve got compared to these juggernauts—we\u0026rsquo;ve raised a decent amount of funding from my perspective, but some of these companies we\u0026rsquo;re going up against have more money than the US government. That\u0026rsquo;s an incredibly daunting task, but I don\u0026rsquo;t think that\u0026rsquo;s an excuse to shy away from it.\nYou just keep going over these hurdles where you have that Dunning-Kruger effect. At the start, you\u0026rsquo;re like, \u0026ldquo;Yes, this is a brilliant idea.\u0026rdquo; Then you go down into the valley of despair thinking, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, what have I got myself into?\u0026rdquo; But you just hit milestone after milestone. You raise your first cheque, you get your first product out, you get your first user, you raise more money. You hire more team members, you build more feature sets and you just keep solving problems to the extent where you generate so much momentum. You get to a stage where it\u0026rsquo;s harder to not do it than to do it.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a useful framework. Right now, it would be harder for me to stop than to keep going. We\u0026rsquo;ve built so much momentum towards where we need to be that I would have to work hard to go the other way, which is a strange position to reach.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s cool that you\u0026rsquo;re excited about what you\u0026rsquo;re doing and that the passion is definitely there, which I think is so important. I think often young people today—and it\u0026rsquo;s maybe a trend that\u0026rsquo;s starting to come off—are more concerned about having a mission and having that positive impact on the world, rather than being a manager at a bank where it\u0026rsquo;s not super clear what benefit you\u0026rsquo;re providing.\nRobby Wade: My business partner and I used to call NAB \u0026ldquo;the pit.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;ve seen the Batman film where he goes into the pit and has to climb out of the well. You have to work at some of these big companies because, even though they suck, you learn so many lessons: how to interact, read, write emails, raise money and work with high-net-worth individuals. You become the type of person who can fulfil a mission.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s one thing to have a mission and another to be the type of person who can fulfil it. The mission is useless unless you have the skills to make it possible.\nA lot of people have different views on Gary V. I don\u0026rsquo;t follow him that closely, but one thing I do like about Gary V is his understanding of how long life is. I always have to remind myself of this. Sometimes when you\u0026rsquo;re young, you\u0026rsquo;re in such a rush to fulfil your mission that you don\u0026rsquo;t realise how long 10 years is.\nIf I think about 10 years ago, I was working at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s at uni and trying to get by. I was a manager at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s, going clubbing every second weekend or whatever. You think about what happened over the next 10 years, and I\u0026rsquo;m like, \u0026ldquo;When I\u0026rsquo;m 38, 39, that\u0026rsquo;s another whole period, except I have all these lessons and skills.\u0026rdquo; The compound interest of that is an order of magnitude higher.\nBut at the time it\u0026rsquo;s so hard to see those things and to be able to think long-term. I\u0026rsquo;ve been lucky to have really great mentors and work around people who have supported me and backed me and taught me.\nThe problem is that when you\u0026rsquo;re young and have a mission, you don\u0026rsquo;t know what you don\u0026rsquo;t know. You don\u0026rsquo;t realise how naive you are, how long life can be or how hard certain things are.\nThe value of doing a shitty job is understated. At McDonald\u0026rsquo;s, you\u0026rsquo;re doing 10,000 hours with 14-year-old staff members who tell you to get stuffed. They don\u0026rsquo;t want to do anything. You\u0026rsquo;re trying to rally people who earn 10 bucks an hour flipping cheeseburgers and get them excited about their work.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s hard. You have people complaining to you that it\u0026rsquo;s taking too long to make orders. Excuse me, can you feed a family? I dare you to go home and try to feed your family of four in three minutes. I dare you to do it and get your 12-year-old son to do the cooking. It\u0026rsquo;s remarkable.\nI think these things offer you a lot of perspective. A lot of people ask, \u0026ldquo;How do you deal with the stress?\u0026rdquo; This isn\u0026rsquo;t stressful compared to a Friday night shift at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s. I think those kinds of perspectives are important.\nI often think about Nolan, one of the engineers I hired straight out of university. Nolan grinds and works his arse off, which is a beautiful thing. But people sometimes think working for a startup is epic, with good work-life balance, perks and exciting, fun experiences. You don\u0026rsquo;t get that at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s or NAB.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s valuable to know what sucks. People who grow up in low socioeconomic environments are incredibly hardworking and appreciate what they have. You can artificially create some of that perspective by having a shitty job at some point in your life. It helps when you later work in different environments.\nJames: That was really funny and really interesting to hear.\nRobby Wade: I\u0026rsquo;ve never said that out loud. Thank you for drawing that out, but it\u0026rsquo;s important.\nJames: I liked the point about how sometimes doing things that aren\u0026rsquo;t so good gives you perspective and allows you to almost enjoy the good things more. If you\u0026rsquo;ve seen things that aren\u0026rsquo;t so good—like working at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s on a Friday night or whatever—it puts things in perspective.\nRobby Wade: It\u0026rsquo;s so important. My job at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s was to make sure that the back area had enough meat and nuggets—enough meat and chicken—so that when we went into a rush, we wouldn\u0026rsquo;t run out. And that the order-taker had enough cash in her drawer. And that the order-taker had somebody taking orders as well. And that we had enough people at the front and everyone was positioned.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not that different from a startup. I have to make sure engineers have their designs, designers have their product specifications, and the marketing team interacts with both groups. At McDonald\u0026rsquo;s, you make sure all the jobs come together to produce a quality product. It\u0026rsquo;s a microcosm of what you do at a grand scale in a startup, except the result is a cheeseburger in a bag rather than an app.\nRobby\u0026rsquo;s Learning Journey and Engineering # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love to talk about your engineering experience at work and the learning that goes along with going from NAB to where you are now and all the things you\u0026rsquo;ve had to learn in that time. One thing we spoke about before this was learning engineering stuff and how you didn\u0026rsquo;t study computer science at uni, but having to learn that has been really beneficial and a great part of what you do. I\u0026rsquo;d love to hear about all the things you\u0026rsquo;ve had to learn over this period and what, looking back now, have been some of the really important things you\u0026rsquo;ve learned on your journey to where you are.\nRobby Wade: I\u0026rsquo;ll start with the engineering environment. My engineers would probably roll over laughing if people said I had an engineering base, but I take it as an incredible compliment. I\u0026rsquo;ve spent a lot of time developing a deep enough understanding of that environment.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t study as an engineer. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t trained as an engineer. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t even call myself an engineer. But what I would say proudly is I\u0026rsquo;ve spent a lot of time to understand engineering. I\u0026rsquo;ve also done that in design as well.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the benefit of being a COO: you spend a lot of time in different environments. Those of us without design or engineering backgrounds tend to have imposter syndrome and think we aren\u0026rsquo;t smart enough to understand that work. Sometimes, when you speak to people, they\u0026rsquo;ll make it sound more complicated than it is.\nI heard Jacqueline Novogratz talk about this, and it made a difference in my career. She made a career out of asking stupid questions and continuing to pull the string. I\u0026rsquo;m reasonably intelligent. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t say I\u0026rsquo;m the smartest person in the world, but I can generally understand something if I read it or someone explains it to me.\nWhat I\u0026rsquo;ve learned in my life is if somebody can\u0026rsquo;t explain something to me, then they either don\u0026rsquo;t understand it or they\u0026rsquo;re lying. The best people in the world who care and who are doing the right thing by you—if they know what they\u0026rsquo;re talking about, the definition of knowing what you\u0026rsquo;re talking about is that you can explain it to somebody else. If you know what you\u0026rsquo;re talking about, you can teach somebody. If somebody is not willing to teach you, you probably shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be around them anyway, or they\u0026rsquo;re lying to you, or they don\u0026rsquo;t know what they\u0026rsquo;re talking about.\nThe first principles of design and engineering have many similarities. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to understand every line of code, but I\u0026rsquo;ve spent a lot of time understanding why things are hard.\nThen you start to draw these parallels when you\u0026rsquo;ve been doing it enough. You say, \u0026ldquo;We did that speech bubble thing the other day that had metadata. You said it was hard for this reason. So why would video be hard? Isn\u0026rsquo;t video just moving pictures?\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;m just giving a dumb example. But my point is, you start to get your own understanding and you can challenge people on what they\u0026rsquo;re saying. You say, \u0026ldquo;Hang on a second, I understood what you were saying before, which means that if I understood that, the thing that you\u0026rsquo;re saying now doesn\u0026rsquo;t make any sense.\u0026rdquo;\nThe more questions you ask and the more inquisitive you become, the more knowledge you build, until you can bring an intelligent perspective to the conversation.\nI think CEOs and people who consider themselves non-creative or non-technical are lazy when they don\u0026rsquo;t spend the time with their team and ask them why they\u0026rsquo;re making the decisions they\u0026rsquo;re making. Our whole product is design and engineering. If I don\u0026rsquo;t spend time learning what it means to be a designer and an engineer, how can I do my job? And how can I get my team to respect me? Not respect me in the sense that I\u0026rsquo;m the leader and you need to do what I say, but why should they care about what I think if I don\u0026rsquo;t understand what they do?\nThat\u0026rsquo;s an undervalued part of the job. If you\u0026rsquo;re neither technical nor a designer and don\u0026rsquo;t understand how hard things are, you can become the ignorant CEO who says, \u0026ldquo;Get that done in two weeks,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re fired.\u0026rdquo; You pulled that timeframe out of your arse. You have no idea how hard the work is, what skills the person has, what\u0026rsquo;s possible or how many resources they need. You can\u0026rsquo;t have an intelligent conversation with them; you\u0026rsquo;re being a tyrannical dictator and throwing out a random timeframe, which is incredibly dangerous.\nYou have this romanticism in startups where everyone\u0026rsquo;s seen the movies where they make their team work nine hours a day, seven days a week to push out a feature set or something. You can think about that romantically.\nI think about this—I do a bit of long distance running. If you say you\u0026rsquo;re training for a marathon, you might be able to do one marathon a month. You burn your team out, then you need to let them rest so that they can recover. Or they can do five Ks a day for 25 days. A marathon is 42 kilometres. Five Ks a day for 25 days is a hundred kilometres.\nIf you think about that as product evolution, I\u0026rsquo;d rather they do a hundred kilometres of development than smash themselves pushing out one marathon effort. A consistent cadence is better, but building it requires understanding their jobs and mapping out the product roadmap in a sophisticated way.\nI would never say that I\u0026rsquo;m an engineer or a designer or anything like that, but I can proudly say that I\u0026rsquo;ve spent a lot of time understanding these areas of the business so that I can be a good leader and work reasonably with my team. It\u0026rsquo;s offensive when you question them on things that you have no idea what you\u0026rsquo;re talking about—\u0026ldquo;How is this not done yet? Why haven\u0026rsquo;t you done this in this timeframe?\u0026rdquo; when you don\u0026rsquo;t know anything. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to be that guy. That\u0026rsquo;s something to think about.\nFailures that turned out to be a success # James: I think one question I have for you is around failures. I wonder if there\u0026rsquo;s been any particular failures you can think of that turned out to be a success later. Is there anything that comes to mind? Any times where you\u0026rsquo;ve failed at something but it ended up turning out well?\nRobby Wade: I think there are so many. There\u0026rsquo;s value in everything that you do. In previous relationships—romantic partners and stuff—I\u0026rsquo;ve failed certain romantic partners, but then became a better partner for every subsequent partner after that. It\u0026rsquo;s the same in business.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve done well in each business and my peers and family and friends would consider that we achieved things and succeeded. But there were essences and elements that I failed at, that we failed at. You fail in micro ways all the time. I think those elements—you keep them as a reminder to keep yourself on track.\nIn terms of huge failures, I can\u0026rsquo;t think of anything specific where it\u0026rsquo;s been a failure that has really crushed me as a person and sent me into a dark place that I\u0026rsquo;ve had to recover from, or where I\u0026rsquo;ve dramatically let people down or whatever it might be.\nFailure is a perspective in many different ways. It depends on what your goal was. One of my favourite quotes that I live by is: \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re entitled to the action and never its fruits.\u0026rdquo; If I wake up every day and live by my values—my code of ethics—and I do what I say that I\u0026rsquo;m going to do to the people that I promised, it\u0026rsquo;s very difficult to fail.\nI was talking to a VC yesterday and this would be a good example for a lot of the entrepreneurs out there. I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you guys have heard of Fast. It was an Australian startup that ended up closing down very recently. They raised a lot of money and then—this particular investor had invested in Fast, he was one of the early investors. He said that Dom, the founder of Fast, is working on something soon and he was going to show him.\nI asked, \u0026ldquo;Would you invest again?\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;Absolutely.\u0026rdquo; The way Dom conducted himself as CEO during that time was incredibly impressive. He respected his investors and did what he promised at board meetings. It simply didn\u0026rsquo;t work out, but he didn\u0026rsquo;t lie. The investor said, \u0026ldquo;Have you seen Rocky? Rocky doesn\u0026rsquo;t win the title in the first one. He wins it in the second one.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s an interesting dynamic. One time I brought myself up from the ashes was in my early twenties, when I suffered severe anxiety. I\u0026rsquo;d been a social person, then reached a place where I couldn\u0026rsquo;t go to dinner with my girlfriend, attend parties or easily leave the house.\nI was somebody who had already been in the bank and was having a lot of early stage success. Everybody was saying, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re going to have a big career and you\u0026rsquo;re going to succeed heaps.\u0026rdquo; Then I went into this bout of anxiety where I found it hard just to do the day-to-day meaningless tasks.\nI could call that a failure in some capacity, but it was an important experience. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t a failure; it simply happened. Before we started recording, I told you that I used to think people with anxiety and depression needed to get over it. I\u0026rsquo;d studied some psychology at university but didn\u0026rsquo;t understand it.\nBut going through it was an incredibly potent experience for me, because I can empathise with people now who have different mental issues. I would have never anticipated I\u0026rsquo;d be the type of person that would have something like that.\nHow I came out of that was building a really strong relationship with fear and risk. A lot of my anxiety was around fear. I just started doing stuff—I would feel like I was going to have a heart attack when I would go to the gym and different things like that.\nI started to just challenge myself. I\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just going to go and run 10 or 20 Ks. If we\u0026rsquo;re going to have a heart attack, we\u0026rsquo;ll have a heart attack. We haven\u0026rsquo;t had one yet.\u0026rdquo; I used to have this concept of me versus my mind. My body would be scared about something and I would just go and do it. I would do the thing that I was terrified to do.\nWhen I was in my early twenties, you couldn\u0026rsquo;t have paid me a million dollars to go tandem skydiving. The epitome of that journey was learning to skydive solo. I have a parachute in my closet and go skydiving from time to time; it\u0026rsquo;s one of my favourite activities. That was the pinnacle of my journey with fear.\nIt told me a really important lesson in startups in the sense that our bodies have fear for a reason—to keep us alive. We have to fear something. If you don\u0026rsquo;t build a good relationship with fear, it\u0026rsquo;s going to hold you back in many different capacities.\nFor some people, what\u0026rsquo;s scary is people seeing them wearing the wrong T-shirt or posting a photo on Instagram that doesn\u0026rsquo;t get any likes or whatever it is. But I\u0026rsquo;ve trained my body that what\u0026rsquo;s scary is being at 40,000 feet, jumping out of an airplane, or being deep into a really long marathon or a triathlon. It\u0026rsquo;s scary when you\u0026rsquo;re at 38 Ks and you feel like you\u0026rsquo;re going to die.\nYou teach your body what is actually scary. I think it\u0026rsquo;s an undervalued thing in terms of putting yourself in environments that are genuinely fearful. Now I don\u0026rsquo;t give a shit what people think about what I\u0026rsquo;m wearing or what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. People ask, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re going on that investor call—are you nervous? How do you handle it?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s not scary for me. I don\u0026rsquo;t even get that anxious leading into an investor call because the level of anxiety that I felt sitting in a plane at 40,000 feet and seeing the door open and having to jump out of an airplane—getting on a Zoom call with somebody is easy.\nThinking about doing a triathlon where you have to swim two kilometres in freezing water—when you do these things that are incredibly difficult and incredibly scary, these trivial things that people think are scary are no longer scary anymore.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll end on this—it\u0026rsquo;s not an answer to your question about failure, but it\u0026rsquo;s a funny thing Jesse said the other day. When you\u0026rsquo;re young, you tend to compare what other people are doing and worry about what they think. That\u0026rsquo;s an important part of doing a startup: everyone will tell you you\u0026rsquo;re wrong and stupid, and you have to get through that.\nBut Jesse was talking about how little people think about you. Everyone says, \u0026ldquo;No one\u0026rsquo;s thinking about you,\u0026rdquo; but he put it into perspective in a way I\u0026rsquo;d never heard before. I use my iPhone for six hours every day. He said, \u0026ldquo;Do you know how often I think about Steve Jobs?\u0026rdquo; Think about that. You use his product constantly and he\u0026rsquo;s changed your entire life. How often do you think about Steve Jobs? Never.\nThe Wright brothers invented the airplane. You think about legacy and all these kinds of things. Whenever you\u0026rsquo;re on an airplane, are you thinking about how amazing the Wright brothers are and how they created this airplane for you? No, you\u0026rsquo;re sitting there worried about whenever they\u0026rsquo;re going to bring a glass of water or whatever stupid movie is on, Men in Black on the TV or whatever.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s an incredibly important mindset to get. It\u0026rsquo;s easy to think everyone always says no one cares about what you think, but think about the people that you actually think about. These people who have fundamentally changed the world in its entire capacity—you don\u0026rsquo;t even think about them.\nWhen was the last time you thought about Winston Churchill? Winston Churchill saved the world from disaster. JFK saved the world from nuclear disaster. When was the last time you thought, \u0026ldquo;Man, JFK, such a good dude\u0026rdquo;? Never. It\u0026rsquo;s really important to not take yourself that seriously, because no one\u0026rsquo;s going to think about you. If I build ThisApp and I get a billion users and do all these things, no one gives a shit in reality.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a relationship you have to build.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a really good way to put it. Thanks for sharing that. I think there\u0026rsquo;s a thread there between hard things leading to better experiences—like the running and things like that, putting yourself in difficult situations. It puts in perspective these other situations similar to the McDonald\u0026rsquo;s experience—having that hard experience makes the other things easier.\nRobby Wade: If you think about it, most things aren\u0026rsquo;t that hard. Your perception of what it\u0026rsquo;s going to take—in theory, when you\u0026rsquo;re talking to a venture capitalist, you\u0026rsquo;re just having a conversation. You have conversations every single day. It\u0026rsquo;s just a conversation, but you\u0026rsquo;ve created a story around that conversation that makes it hard.\nIn some capacity, most things are easier than you think. The anxiety and procrastination you apply to them add weight. Some things are hard, but those you obsess over usually aren\u0026rsquo;t worth it.\nRobby\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one question left, and it\u0026rsquo;s a question I ask all the guests that come on the show. If you were looking at the Robby that\u0026rsquo;s just finished university and he\u0026rsquo;s about to go into the world and tackle his job, what advice would you give him knowing what you know now and all the experiences that you\u0026rsquo;ve had?\nRobby Wade: So easy. I would just say read and run every day. If you read books every day and run every day, I guarantee your life will change forever. If you just do those two things, even if you start with a kilometre and a page, those two things are so unique in their capacity.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll be brief. Reading gives you mentors, knowledge and understanding; it levels up your education. Running gets you outside, which is important for your circadian rhythm and mental wellbeing.\nWhen you run through space and your eyes move, it relaxes you and makes you calm. Cardiovascular exercise can promote neurogenesis in your hippocampus, supporting its health and improving your memory.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re running every day, your memory is going to be better. If your memory is better, you\u0026rsquo;re going to be learning more. If you\u0026rsquo;re learning more, very likely you\u0026rsquo;re going to be fit and educated. It\u0026rsquo;s pretty hard for your life to go south if you just focus on those two things.\nI think everyone can give you all these weird anecdotes and statements and all those kinds of things, but practically, try to read and run at least once a day. I think your life would just transform from there. You learn what you need to do next just by doing those two.\nContact Robby # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. Absolutely agree with that. Thanks for coming on the show today, Robby. Where can people go to find out more about ThisApp, the app you\u0026rsquo;re building, your life in general—where\u0026rsquo;s the best place for them to find out more?\nRobby Wade: They can go to ThisApp.com. At the moment we\u0026rsquo;re in beta, so you can\u0026rsquo;t download the app yet. We are looking to release it soon. But if you go to ThisApp.com, you can claim your username now, so you can keep that forever. It\u0026rsquo;s a good way to lock that down.\nJump over there. We\u0026rsquo;re on all the socials like Twitter and TikTok, Instagram and all those kinds of wonderful things. If you do have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on any social platform. I\u0026rsquo;ll get back to you. Look forward to seeing you all on board.\nThanks for taking the time, James.\nJames: No problem, man. It\u0026rsquo;s been really cool having you on and hearing your background and your story. Thanks so much for sharing it with us.\nRobby Wade: Thanks man.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways, the things that I learned from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode, straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 34\n","date":"13 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/34-robby-wade/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 34\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Robby Wade | On The Importance of Perspective","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This week\u0026rsquo;s guest is different to most we\u0026rsquo;ve had on the show previously.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s passionate. He\u0026rsquo;s raw. He\u0026rsquo;s unfiltered.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s on a mission.\nThis week\u0026rsquo;s episode will leave you inspired and ready to take your life and career to the next level.\nSubscribe now to get content like this, straight to you, every week. 👇\nSubscribe Now\nJack Boxer is Founder \u0026amp; CEO of Golden Hour, a lifestyle design brand helping people to chase the uncommon life.\n🤝 Connect with Jack # Golden Hour - https://goldenhr.com.au/\nInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/itsgoldenhr/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Just in Time vs Just in Case # Jack spoke about learning, and his learning journey to creating his business. During our discussion, he mentioned a great Tim Ferriss lesson that he had used.\nTo learn things just in time vs just in case.\nOften we find ourselves learning things that perhaps don\u0026rsquo;t immediately serve us. Learning is great, but this kind of learning can get in the way of learning things that will actually be useful to us right now.\nWhen learning things, consider if you are learning for just in time or just in case.\nThat Is Not the Way to Live # Jack is a man on a mission.\nHis mission is to help people escape those jobs that they hate, and find those that they really enjoy by providing resources to help them see that there is a way.\nHe tells us that if you\u0026rsquo;re at a job that doesn\u0026rsquo;t fill you up, you haven\u0026rsquo;t made a mistake.\nThe mistake is made when you know your job doesn\u0026rsquo;t fill you up but you do nothing about it.\nMake a change.\nConsistency Is Key # Jack told us that he lives by one key principle.\nConsistency.\nEveryone starts somewhere. Usually without knowing anything.\nThose who achieve great things and have big impacts on the world are those that stay the course, those who are consistent.\nWithout consistency, all else crumbles.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Jack Boxer\n00:21 Intro\n00:53 Jack\u0026rsquo;s Origin Story\n06:55 Maximum Achievement Today\n09:54 Jack\u0026rsquo;s Current Reading Habit\n14:49 How Jack Thinks about Upskilling\n18:36 Facing Challenges and Courage\n24:18 How Jack learnt about building a business\n32:02 Jack\u0026rsquo;s Mission\n39:48 Who Inspires Jack\n41:51 Jack\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n44:01 Connect with Jack\n45:32 Outro\n","date":"6 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/33-jack-boxer/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This week’s guest is different to most we’ve had on the show previously.\n","title":"Jack Boxer | On Waking Up and Chasing Your Dreams","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 33\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJack: That sucks. It\u0026rsquo;s no way to live, because you\u0026rsquo;re wasting five out of seven days—about 71% of your life. How have we let that become normal?\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is the founder and CEO of Golden Hour, a lifestyle-design brand that helps people chase an uncommon life. He\u0026rsquo;s also a blue belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Please welcome Jack Boxer. I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to our conversation and keen to explore the origin of Utopia, Golden Hour and your other work.\nJack\u0026rsquo;s Origin Story # James: When did you first have the idea to pursue this kind of life?\nJack: We have to go back to 2017, when I left high school and moved from Port Lincoln to Adelaide for university. I always assumed I\u0026rsquo;d get one of the few jobs boys are told about at school: physiotherapist, teacher, tradie or something similar, earning $50,000 or $60,000 a year.\nThat was simply what work meant. I started a Bachelor of Human Movement, but after one semester realised it wasn\u0026rsquo;t for me and changed to a Bachelor of Business Property. That led to a job in a real-estate office.\nI saw the money real-estate agents could make and thought I might do that. One day, the agent I worked for gave me two books from his desk and suggested I read them. One was Maximum Achievement by Brian Tracy. Reading it changed my life—corny as that sounds—because it changed how I thought about success. It taught me that success begins in the mind: how you see yourself and what you believe you can accomplish shape what you will accomplish.\nI\u0026rsquo;d always thought you worked five days, got a weekend and lived like everyone around you. The book opened my eyes to how much more is available. It\u0026rsquo;s up to us to seek out those ideas and ways of thinking. If you believe you can do wild, ambitious things, you can; you need to know they\u0026rsquo;re possible.\nThe book opened my mind to different opportunities and ways of living, including that it isn\u0026rsquo;t actually that hard to make substantial money and support everyone around you. It made me question what I was doing and ask whether it was truly what I wanted.\nI was becoming uncomfortable in real estate and recognised that it wasn\u0026rsquo;t for me. I saw many grey areas in the industry, which felt dirty. I wanted to be honest and have a clear conscience, not be involved in grey-area practices.\nI clearly remember sitting in my car on the side of an Adelaide road as rain poured down, bawling my eyes out because I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what to do with my life. I was beside myself, speaking to Mum on the phone.\nI decided to move home to Port Lincoln. Before leaving Adelaide, I began seeing a life coach. We had a few sessions to identify my interests and what I could do with my life, and developed the idea of sharing those interests online.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s when I started Golden Hour\u0026rsquo;s main Instagram page, @itsgoldenhr. I tried to build an audience around my interests because I knew money followed attention and that I would need attention to make money.\nI decided to build the audience first and determine how to monetise it later. I focused on Golden Hour\u0026rsquo;s Instagram for a year and grew it to roughly 10,000 followers, initially keeping it completely secret from family and friends. Then I told everyone, sold a few pieces of clothing and began considering monetisation. I wanted to create a personal membership but knew my personal brand wasn\u0026rsquo;t yet strong enough, so I designed a membership around what I\u0026rsquo;d learnt about personal development and self-help—everything that could help others discover that life can be enjoyable.\nYou can make money doing what you love. I assembled the resources that now make up Utopia, a large archive of personal-development content.\nJames: I have many questions about that journey. You said the first book on the table was Maximum Achievement. Do you remember the second?\nJack: I can\u0026rsquo;t remember. Imagine if I\u0026rsquo;d chosen the other book! I remember looking at it and thinking it looked good because it had a good cover. I think the agent made a comment about Maximum Achievement that persuaded me to choose it.\nJack: I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether I\u0026rsquo;d be doing this work if I hadn\u0026rsquo;t read that book. Something happens and changes your life\u0026rsquo;s entire course. It may sound strange to call it fate, but moments like that make you question what\u0026rsquo;s going on.\nMaximum Achievement Today # James: The book had an incredible impact. Do you continue to apply specific lessons from it today, or was its value mainly the paradigm shift that opened your eyes to other possibilities?\nJack: Initially, the main idea was to see yourself as successful, tell yourself you can succeed and picture it mentally before it becomes reality. The book also prompted me to visualise each morning.\nI thought about what I wanted in life, what I wanted to accomplish, the house I wanted and supporting my family. I began seeing myself as successful. They describe it as the law of attraction in The Secret.\nIf you believe something, can picture it and work hard for it, it will happen. This was the first book that opened my mind to that. I\u0026rsquo;d never connected success with mindset; I thought you simply put eight hours into a job and received an hourly wage. It was mainly a paradigm shift. I\u0026rsquo;ve read the entire book twice and revisited sections since. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether it would have the same effect if I first read it now, but at that time it completely changed my life.\nJames: I think I\u0026rsquo;ve listened to it once. Brian Tracy is an impressive author with plenty of good material. I recently listened to something of his called The Psychology of Achievement, I think.\nIt was on Audible and may also be a physical book. I think it covers some of the theory behind Maximum Achievement. Listening in the car, I was struck by how incredible the material was and how simply he explained it.\nJack: He\u0026rsquo;s a good author. He also wrote Eat That Frog!, didn\u0026rsquo;t he? I haven\u0026rsquo;t read the book, but that principle is significant. I need to read more of his work.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so through the link in the show notes. The newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.\nBut without further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get back into it.\nJack\u0026rsquo;s Current Reading Habit # James: He\u0026rsquo;s very good. Is reading still something you spend a great deal of time doing? As you mentioned, Utopia includes books and other material.\nJack: I read that book in 2018 and then read avidly for about an hour every day—half an hour each morning and evening. In 2020, I stopped for a period, although I can\u0026rsquo;t remember why. I resumed in 2021, reading an hour a day and burning through books.\nI love reading now. When I became serious about Utopia around February or March this year, however, I told myself to focus solely on it. I\u0026rsquo;d had a detailed daily routine: exercise, write down ten ideas, take a cold shower, make coffee and so on. I decided to remove everything and focus on Utopia. You often see graphs showing that multitasking produces many mediocre results, while focusing on one thing combines all that effort into one strong result.\nI eliminated reading too, which was probably unwise. I\u0026rsquo;ve started again and currently read for about half an hour every second day. Once the current hectic phase of building Utopia passes, I\u0026rsquo;ll read more. When you\u0026rsquo;re building something new, the sheer number of small tasks that appear can be overwhelming. But I definitely love reading, particularly self-help, personal development and finance. I can see those books behind the camera now. They interest me.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s important to keep your mind engaged with that kind of content, whether through reading or another format. In 2020, I set a goal to read or listen to 52 books. I got through many, but eventually began reading for its own sake rather than choosing each book for a reason and a specific lesson. I\u0026rsquo;d listen while driving, let the book become background noise, then count it as complete.\nJack: It\u0026rsquo;s reading for accomplishment rather than understanding. I\u0026rsquo;ve done that too: “Look at all these books I read.” But can you explain what was in them? I used to read without highlighting anything. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether you highlight or dog-ear pages, but I simply read and finished each book. A couple of months later, I\u0026rsquo;d need to read it again because there was no way to remember everything.\nNow I highlight and dog-ear pages. When I revisit a book, I can go directly to its best sections, which makes the information much easier to recall.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good approach. You read these books intending them to have an impact—learning how to do something so you can act on it. If they have no impact, you need to reconsider what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\nJack: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard Tim Ferriss say that you should read for just-in-time information, not just-in-case information. Just-in-case means reading constantly and perhaps remembering something when a problem arises. Just-in-time means encountering a problem and then reading about its solution. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard Shaan Puri discuss that too. It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting idea because I definitely read just in case.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a useful way of thinking about it.\nHow Jack Thinks about Upskilling # James: I also want to discuss upskilling more generally, particularly your decision to see a life coach. What led you to pursue that?\nJack: That was Mum\u0026rsquo;s idea. I was having a proper breakdown and couldn\u0026rsquo;t put my youth into perspective. I was only about 20, in the first fifth of my life.\nI thought my life was over because I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what to do. Mum is the best and is very good at calming me down and asking, “What\u0026rsquo;s the next step? What can we do from here?” She suggested finding someone who could help.\nPeople do this professionally: they help you determine what work you want. I\u0026rsquo;d never considered it and initially resisted seeing a life coach because I couldn\u0026rsquo;t see the benefit.\nMum bought me a session anyway. The coach and I got along well. He wasn\u0026rsquo;t trying to sell a particular path; he simply listened, which I think is most of the value.\nAfter the first session, he did the work and returned with many options. He pointed out things I thought I knew but hadn\u0026rsquo;t really considered, asking, “If you\u0026rsquo;re telling me this, why are you doing that?”\nThe obvious answer would suddenly become clear. He also made me write down about 25 options. The biggest lesson was that when you aren\u0026rsquo;t sure about something, sit down and think about it. We rarely do that.\nSet a timer for half an hour, make an iced coffee, put your phone out of reach, and sit with pen and paper. Write down what you\u0026rsquo;re thinking and you\u0026rsquo;ll develop solutions to your problems.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s been my most valuable technique for anything causing me mental distress over the past two years: think about it. Agonising over something you haven\u0026rsquo;t properly considered is nonsensical.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;ve sat down and thought but still lack a solution, you\u0026rsquo;ve done the work and can recognise that it\u0026rsquo;s a difficult problem. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t, you can\u0026rsquo;t complain. A solution may not appear in the first session, but if you consistently consider the problem and record your thoughts each day, progress follows.\nReview the previous day\u0026rsquo;s thoughts and add to them. You\u0026rsquo;ll develop solutions, discover what you want from life and understand what makes you happy. You simply have to invest the time to work it out.\nThat was one of the life coach\u0026rsquo;s major lessons.\nJames: I agree. The brain is an interesting and powerful thing.\nFacing Challenges and Courage # James: People can face a challenge without considering any solutions. They simply say, “I have this problem,” accept that it exists and let it persist forever instead of asking how to fix it.\nJack: That\u0026rsquo;s when you see people complain: “I hate my job.” Do something about it. There are plenty of jobs available. Sit down and think. When someone says, “I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I\u0026rsquo;ll do,” they\u0026rsquo;re identifying exactly what they need to consider.\nMost people don\u0026rsquo;t want to put in the work to improve their lives or leave the discomfort of a bad job. To quote Tim Ferriss, most people prefer unhappiness over uncertainty. I understand that, but you don\u0026rsquo;t want to remain unhappy.\nJames: Perhaps changing jobs could make you more unhappy, but testing that possibility is still better than accepting that things aren\u0026rsquo;t going well.\nJack: Exactly. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to reach a later stage of life and wonder, “What if I\u0026rsquo;d taken that chance and it had turned out brilliantly?” The thought of that regret gives me a feeling in my stomach. You see older people dismiss what you\u0026rsquo;re doing as unlikely to work, despite never trying anything themselves. Now they\u0026rsquo;re bitter because they no longer have the energy. I don\u0026rsquo;t want that feeling.\nJames: Have you read The Alchemist? It\u0026rsquo;s a popular novel with interesting lessons. The shepherd in the story begins working for a shop owner who has run his business for many years.\nThe owner complains that he never made what I think is the Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca. He says the idea of going there is what keeps him going; imagining it is better than actually making the trip, because his fantasy keeps him happy.\nFor many people, the idea of having a good job or another kind of life is a pleasant fantasy. Trying to realise it would involve too much pain, so accepting the current situation is easier.\nJack: You probably know people in your family or life who do work they wouldn\u0026rsquo;t touch if they weren\u0026rsquo;t paid. That\u0026rsquo;s no way to live.\nYou want work that you\u0026rsquo;d still do without being paid because it genuinely interests you. I don\u0026rsquo;t understand settling for a job that makes you unhappy, where Sunday arrives and you think, “Fuck, I have to work tomorrow.”\nYou\u0026rsquo;re sitting with your family when the thought of work intrudes. That sucks. It\u0026rsquo;s no way to live, because you\u0026rsquo;re wasting five out of seven days—about 71% of your life. How have we let that become normal for most people?\nJames: I agree. When someone pursues a passion, others sometimes treat it as a bad or crazy choice. Perhaps they\u0026rsquo;re jealous that someone else can do it.\nJack: There\u0026rsquo;s a quote: “The thought of your success heightens the feeling of stagnation in others.” Nobody wants to feel left behind. If people aren\u0026rsquo;t doing anything with their lives and see you trying to improve yours, it can make them feel bad.\nThey may try to bring you back to their level so you feel the same. It isn\u0026rsquo;t a good trait, but we all have it to some degree.\nHow Jack learnt about building a business # James: You\u0026rsquo;re building an Instagram page, Utopia and many other things. How do you upskill and learn to do everything required to build a business from scratch? There isn\u0026rsquo;t much overlap with real estate, so much of this is new to you.\nJack: Now that we have the internet, there\u0026rsquo;s no excuse not to build what you want. If you don\u0026rsquo;t know how to do something, search YouTube or Google; thousands of articles are available.\nSomeone has asked almost every obscure question you can imagine, and you\u0026rsquo;ll find an answer. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve discovered with website design and similar work. Whatever problem you encounter, the internet probably offers a solution and a wealth of free content.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve considered hiring people to run social media, design the website or manage apparel. Before doing that, I want to become capable and really good at each task so I can tell whether someone else is doing a good job. I also value knowing how things work.\nI used to hate the discomfort of being a beginner and looking foolish. Through listening to every episode of Joe Rogan\u0026rsquo;s podcast, I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt that you must be willing to be a beginner and a fool if you want to become a master. You can\u0026rsquo;t become good without first being bad, so I\u0026rsquo;ve accepted that reality.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s how you improve. Let yourself be a fool and laugh at your mistakes. I\u0026rsquo;ve made countless mistakes with Instagram, the website and everything else. Nobody starts out good; everyone starts out badly, which is fine. You improve, and consistency is one of the principles I try to live by.\nEven when you see no results, remain consistent. When learning a new skill, you will be bad and won\u0026rsquo;t transform overnight, but if you keep showing up, learning and trying, you\u0026rsquo;ll improve.\nThe formula is simple: consistent, focused effort makes you better. It also comes back to enjoying the process. Learn what you want to learn and you\u0026rsquo;ll love doing it.\nJames: Everyone starts from nothing in some sense. That\u0026rsquo;s important to remember when beginning something new.\nJack: Brazilian jiu-jitsu makes that obvious. As a beginner, you get strangled and squashed. You\u0026rsquo;re pinned beneath a massive person who throws your ideas about who you are out the window.\nYou thought you were a big, tough man who knew everything, but this person has your arm wrapped around your head, sits on you and could do whatever he wanted. You\u0026rsquo;d be dead in a real fight.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s incredibly humbling and demonstrates that you must be a fool before becoming a master. Starting a martial art is an excellent ego check. It makes you realise you\u0026rsquo;re not all you say you are, which is good for your brain and for you.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard very good things about martial arts and have considered joining for a while. It could be on the cards.\nJack: It\u0026rsquo;s great fun and hard exercise while teaching you to defend yourself. That\u0026rsquo;s what I love about it: you\u0026rsquo;re exhausted and have also learnt a useful skill.\nJames: What inspired you to start?\nJack: Mostly Joe Rogan. Even if the influence was subconscious, listening to him discuss jiu-jitsu\u0026rsquo;s benefits—particularly how it humbles you—definitely contributed. I had, and still have, an ego problem.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s better now because I\u0026rsquo;m aware of it and can recognise when my ego is acting. In jiu-jitsu, if your ego makes you try to overpower or submit someone more skilled, you\u0026rsquo;ll be humbled quickly.\nHe will submit you and make it brutal if your ego pushes you too hard. I started to check my ego, get fit, learn self-defence and feel more comfortable.\nI used to become scared if someone confronted me while I was walking with a girlfriend or at a nightclub, because I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what to do. Now I\u0026rsquo;m comfortable knowing that I can respond if something happens. After six months of jiu-jitsu, you\u0026rsquo;ll probably be fine against an untrained person of the same size.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the feeling I wanted.\nJack: You\u0026rsquo;d love it. It\u0026rsquo;s probably the best martial art for training hard. When grappling, you can go almost 100% without being knocked out. In boxing, going 100% could knock you out and prevent you from training for a month.\nJiu-jitsu lets you simulate an actual fight, tap out and immediately go again.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;ve convinced me.\nJack\u0026rsquo;s Mission # James: When you left real estate, the world opened up and you had to decide what came next. Your current work with Utopia and Golden Hour clearly has an underlying mission. How would you describe what you want to see in the world?\nJack: The easiest description of Utopia is a gym membership for your mind and lifestyle. Just as you might join F45 or 24 Fit, this membership helps you look after your brain, your future and the lifestyle you lead.\nJust as you care for your body, you should care for your future and success. As we discussed, many people are unhappy.\nJack: I don\u0026rsquo;t think it\u0026rsquo;s their fault. Schools and universities teach from a pre-internet perspective, when people couldn\u0026rsquo;t easily share ideas through YouTube, social media or blogs and pursuing an interest was much harder.\nThe distribution methods didn\u0026rsquo;t exist. Now YouTube and social media provide free distribution, while a website or blog may cost only $10 a month. There are many ways to put your ideas into the world.\nUtopia\u0026rsquo;s mentor section exposes people to those who have used the internet to share ideas and create income around their interests. Their examples are blueprints for how all of us can live and show that we can do the same.\nMany people are unhappy because of how they\u0026rsquo;re raised. This isn\u0026rsquo;t a criticism, but you may see four girls from the same friendship group all enter nursing despite being very different people. It would be an extraordinary coincidence if nursing were each person\u0026rsquo;s life passion. People often choose jobs and lives because their friends do, or because school says they\u0026rsquo;re good choices.\nThey end up resentful and unhappy about going to work. I want to show people they don\u0026rsquo;t have to live that way. That\u0026rsquo;s why Utopia includes investing tools, tips and investors to follow: passive income can help you escape the rat race.\nPassive income lets you spend time doing what you love. Automating some income frees you to pursue your interests. Utopia\u0026rsquo;s books and podcasts form the learning stage, teaching you to start a business, become healthier and think better. Utopia is an archive of resources to help you become a better person and live a better life.\nIt helps you build a life you want to live and find exciting. People may respond, “I\u0026rsquo;m happy. I\u0026rsquo;m fine,” but when they go home and lie in bed, they have to answer honestly for themselves.\nEveryone must ask, “Do I really enjoy my life?” They may not tell you, but they know the answer. I want more people to enjoy their lives. That\u0026rsquo;s why Utopia uses a pay-what-you-want model: I didn\u0026rsquo;t want price to be a barrier.\nI want the material to help and to spread ideas that the news, schools and universities don\u0026rsquo;t promote. There are different ways to learn and successful people who have followed them.\nInvesting isn\u0026rsquo;t that difficult once you know what to do. Utopia offers investing role models and tools to educate you and support better decisions. It also includes “life hacks”: 30 ways to upgrade your life.\nThe content is varied, but I believe that if you gave Utopia to a 20-year-old who knew none of this and loaded the information into them, they would be okay and build a life they enjoy.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s inspiring. You\u0026rsquo;re tackling the important problem of people doing work that doesn\u0026rsquo;t fulfil them at all. That\u0026rsquo;s no way to live. I appreciate the pricing model, which lets anyone access the material, and how easy you\u0026rsquo;ve made the lessons to digest.\nJack: The pricing model relies on people\u0026rsquo;s goodwill. Squarespace, which I use to run the membership, lets you set a fixed price or make access free. I wanted to put the power in people\u0026rsquo;s hands, so access is free and members choose their price once inside. That may be better because people can first explore, see what is valuable and understand how it can help.\nThey can then judge its value. I\u0026rsquo;m grateful to everyone who has supported it; it is designed as a paid membership. I want to retain pay-what-you-want because a fixed price might stop people from even looking. If you can\u0026rsquo;t afford it or don\u0026rsquo;t find it valuable, that\u0026rsquo;s fine. I believe most people aren\u0026rsquo;t free riders and will choose a fair price when they see value.\nJames: I hope it goes well. What you\u0026rsquo;ve created is valuable. I have a couple more questions before we wrap up.\nWho Inspires Jack # James: Who inspires you? Is it someone famous such as Joe Rogan, or people closer to you and your network? Whom do you look up to?\nJack: I\u0026rsquo;ve posted often that Joe Rogan is one of the world\u0026rsquo;s best role models for men. People who don\u0026rsquo;t listen to his podcast will criticise that view, but I believe it completely. He\u0026rsquo;s a healthy, kind person who gives himself challenges every day.\nHe seeks happiness and has been a major influence in my life over the past couple of years. I listen to every podcast episode. The other answer is clichéd but true: Mum and Dad. They give my sister and me everything and aren\u0026rsquo;t ordinary parents.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re extremely supportive, even when that support comes at the expense of their own future. They believe in me and trust that I know what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. I need this work to succeed for them, and I\u0026rsquo;m going to give back.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve decided there is no alternative: it will work, and I\u0026rsquo;ll return tenfold what they\u0026rsquo;ve given me. Those are my main inspirations.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a wonderful way to give back to your parents.\nJack: They\u0026rsquo;re the best. I know some people have bad parents, so having good ones is a blessing.\nJack\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I have one final question, which I ask every guest. If you were graduating from university this year, what advice would you give your younger self?\nJack: Sit down and double-check your assumptions about what you want from life. After investing years at university and earning a degree, many people feel obliged to pursue that field. Even two and a half years into the degree, they may already know they don\u0026rsquo;t want that work.\nThey treat the time and money as sunk costs that force them to get the corresponding job. Check your assumptions, because you don\u0026rsquo;t want to become trapped in a life you don\u0026rsquo;t enjoy. You get only one life, so don\u0026rsquo;t let yourself remain stuck doing something you don\u0026rsquo;t fully enjoy.\nAsk yourself whether you\u0026rsquo;d do the work without being paid, or even if you had to pay to do it. A few months of uncertainty and feeling that you wasted your university years is worthwhile if it leads to a happy life. That\u0026rsquo;s far better than cruising into a job that\u0026rsquo;s merely a job.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s excellent advice. I\u0026rsquo;d add: read Maximum Achievement.\nJack: Yes. I\u0026rsquo;ll show everyone what it looks like.\nJames: There we go. Perfect.\nConnect with Jack # James: Thanks for sharing your story, Jack. It\u0026rsquo;s been a great conversation, and your next few months and years sound exciting. Before we wrap up, where can people learn more about you and your work?\nJack: Most of my presence is on Instagram. Golden Hour is @itsgoldenhr, Utopia is @utopialearning, and my personal account is @jboxer_; it\u0026rsquo;s linked from those pages. The website is goldenhr.com.au.\nThere you\u0026rsquo;ll find my blog, our weekly newsletter, Instagram activity and apparel. Utopia\u0026rsquo;s website is utopialearning.com.au; visit it, look around and create an account.\nThe sites include contact details for any questions. We\u0026rsquo;ve also been posting on TikTok: Utopia is @utopialearning, Golden Hour is @goldenhrofficial, and I think my account is @jackboxer3, although I don\u0026rsquo;t post there. Instagram is the main place to find me.\nJames: Thanks for coming on the show, Jack.\nJack: Thanks for having me, James.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and what I learnt from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll receive my takeaways and information about each episode straight in your inbox.\nThanks again for listening. We\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 33\n","date":"6 June 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/33-jack-boxer/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 33\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Jack Boxer | On Waking Up and Chasing Your Dreams","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Successful people are all passionate about what they do. Did they start out passionate? Or are they only passionate because they are successful?\nIn this week\u0026rsquo;s episode, we uncover what it means to follow your passion, and if this career strategy will set you up for boom or bust.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t miss this newsletter, straight to you, every week 👇\nSubscribe Now\nThis video features Steve Jobs, Cal Newport, and Ben Horowitz in investigating whether you should follow your passion when choosing a career.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # This week, we learnt that following your passion isn\u0026rsquo;t the best idea for a few reasons.\nwe sometimes don\u0026rsquo;t have clear passions it\u0026rsquo;s hard to tell if you are more passionate for X or Y your passions change over time not a lot of good evidence that matching the content of your work to a pre-existing interest is a major driver of satisfaction you might not actually be good at your passion (see: talent shows) most successful people did not follow this advice very \u0026lsquo;me\u0026rsquo; centred view of the world What I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt through interviewing people on Graduate Theory is that most people do not start their careers following their passion.\nPeople often start with what they are good at, and find ways to develop passion for their work by providing value to society.\nWhen you are good at what you do, you can use your higher market value to secure a better job with benefits that suit you. This, as well as connection and mastery at work are the kinds of things that lead to lasting fulfilment in your role.\nWhen thinking about your career, don\u0026rsquo;t start with your passions. Start with what you are good at and then build your career on the parts of that which bring you joy.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t follow your passion, become passionate about what you do.\nGet the Newsletter\nContent # Here are the videos and content that I used to help create this video.\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 #32 Don\u0026rsquo;t Follow Your Passion 01:29 Steve Jobs on Following Your Passion 02:08 Thoughts on Steve Jobs 04:18 Cal Newport on Following Your Passion 07:33 James on Cal\u0026rsquo;s Advice 10:08 Ben Horowitz on Following Your Passion 12:44 James on Ben Horowitz 16:31 Scott Galloway on Following Your Passion 18:13 Final Thoughts\n","date":"30 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/32-dont-follow-your-passion/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Successful people are all passionate about what they do. Did they start out passionate? Or are they only passionate because they are successful?\n","title":"On Why You Shouldn't Follow Your Passion","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 32\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nSteve Jobs: And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t found it yet, keep looking and don\u0026rsquo;t settle. As with all matters of the heart, you\u0026rsquo;ll know when you find it.\nJames: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we are going to talk about following your passion. What does that mean, and is that advice really something that you should be following? Following your passion is advice that\u0026rsquo;s given by people all across the internet and all across the world. It\u0026rsquo;s often well-meaning advice, but, as we\u0026rsquo;ll see today, this advice is also a little bit flawed. Today, we\u0026rsquo;re going to dive into where the idea of following your passion actually comes from, some critiques that have come out in the last few years from people who have investigated this further, and some general thoughts around why this might not be the best approach to making decisions in your career.\nWithout further ado, we\u0026rsquo;re going to dive into where this first came from. Where did the idea of following your passion really start? It\u0026rsquo;s been around for a little while now, but it first became popular during the infamous Steve Jobs commencement speech back in 2005. This is a fantastic speech and has so many great points in it, but one of those was around following your passion. We\u0026rsquo;re going to play that part of the speech for you now. Here is Steve back in 2005.\nSteve Jobs on Following Your Passion # Steve Jobs: I\u0026rsquo;m pretty sure none of this would have happened if I hadn\u0026rsquo;t been fired from Apple. It was awful-tasting medicine, but I guess the patient needed it. Sometimes life\u0026rsquo;s going to hit you in the head with a brick. Don\u0026rsquo;t lose faith. I\u0026rsquo;m convinced that the only thing that kept me going was that I loved what I did.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got to find what you love, and that is as true for work as it is for your lovers. Your work is going to fill a large part of your life. And the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work.\nLike any great relationship, it just gets better and better as the years roll on. So keep looking. Don\u0026rsquo;t settle.\nThoughts on Steve Jobs # James: If you haven\u0026rsquo;t found it yet, keep looking. Isn\u0026rsquo;t that fantastic, what Steve shared with us there? It\u0026rsquo;s certainly a very noble pursuit, right? We all want to do things for work that we enjoy and that we love. Who wants to work somewhere and do something that they don\u0026rsquo;t love or enjoy?\nNo one wants that. What Steve is saying is absolutely right. You want to find something that you\u0026rsquo;d love to do, but the problem we get into here is that this advice now gets presented as something where you should start by thinking of things that you love and then try and match your career to that.\nFor example, if I like maths, then I should have a job in maths. If I enjoy going outside and exercising, then perhaps I should be a physio or something like that. These are all interesting applications of this advice where we should do something that we love. The idea is to start with something you do love now and match your career to that.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s what we get taught as what this advice means. When we think about this further, what we can realise is there are some flaws with this. We\u0026rsquo;re now going to investigate some of these flaws more deeply. I\u0026rsquo;m going to call on some people that have thought about this in more detail and we\u0026rsquo;re going to hear from them.\nFirst, we\u0026rsquo;re going to hear from Cal Newport and Cal Newport is someone that I really admire. He\u0026rsquo;s a professor, a podcaster and a writer. He wrote a book that investigates this topic in a lot of detail called So Good They Can\u0026rsquo;t Ignore You.\nHe wrote this back in 2012, so it\u0026rsquo;s now 10 years old, but on his podcast he recently did a little recap of some of the core messages in the book. In this video, he explains this idea of following your passion, and how what it\u0026rsquo;s meant to mean and what we take it to mean are slightly different.\nHe also explains how you can start to think about why matching your passions to a job is perhaps not the right way to think about things, but I\u0026rsquo;m going to let Cal explain his thoughts and his rationale on this topic. We\u0026rsquo;ll hear from him now.\nCal Newport on Following Your Passion # Cal Newport: I researched and wrote this book as a postdoc at MIT, trying to answer the question: how do people end up loving what they do?\nAt the time, and continuing till today, the common answer to that question was \u0026ldquo;follow your passion\u0026rdquo;. That\u0026rsquo;s by far the most common answer, especially in the American context. There are definitely some regional differences here, but definitely in the American context, it didn\u0026rsquo;t take much pushing to realise that there are problems with this advice.\nNumber one, a lot of people—and by a lot, I mean most—don\u0026rsquo;t have clearly defined pre-existing passions that they can identify to then follow. That\u0026rsquo;s a real issue. If you talk to a bunch of, let\u0026rsquo;s say, 22-year-olds just coming out of school and say, look, you got to follow your passion or you\u0026rsquo;re going to be a miserable, sad sack.\nAnd they say, \u0026ldquo;Well, what\u0026rsquo;s my passion? I don\u0026rsquo;t know.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a problem. Second, there is not a lot of good evidence that matching the content of your work to a pre-existing interest is a major driver of satisfaction in that job. We just assume that\u0026rsquo;s true. That advice just assumes that\u0026rsquo;s true. \u0026ldquo;Oh, I like this thing, so if I do that for my job, I\u0026rsquo;ll like my job\u0026rdquo;, but we actually don\u0026rsquo;t have a lot of evidence that\u0026rsquo;s true.\nWe have a ton of evidence that other factors are much more important. Things like autonomy, things like mastery, things like impact, things like connection. A lot of other things that are really important for job satisfaction. They have nothing to do with whether the content of my work matches a pre-existing interest.\nWe of course have plenty of counterexamples of people who build jobs out of hobbies and are miserable. These are clichés: the amateur baker who\u0026rsquo;s miserable as a professional baker, the amateur photographer who\u0026rsquo;s miserable doing six wedding photography gigs per week. This is so common.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a cliché that when you take what you love and say, \u0026ldquo;Let me make a job about it,\u0026rdquo; you no longer love that thing. And that\u0026rsquo;s because the thing that makes you really love a job is not, \u0026ldquo;Me really like this topic. Me job now has this topic in it. Me now really like my job.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s way more complicated than that.\nThe final issue—I\u0026rsquo;ll throw in a third here—that I noticed when I was researching So Good They Can\u0026rsquo;t Ignore You is that if you just go out there and grab a bunch of people who love what they do for a living and look at their actual stories, nine times out of 10, they were not following a clear pre-existing passion.\nIf this is the universal advice we give, you would expect that it\u0026rsquo;s what most people who love their job did. That\u0026rsquo;s why we give this advice. Most people don\u0026rsquo;t. The reality is when you just ask someone casually who loves their work, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s your advice?\u0026rdquo; and they say, \u0026ldquo;Follow your passion.\u0026rdquo; What they really mean is follow the goal of ending up passionate about your work.\nThey don\u0026rsquo;t mean, \u0026ldquo;Identify in advance what you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about, match that to your job, and then you will love your work.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s not really what they mean. It\u0026rsquo;s not really what they did. It\u0026rsquo;s just a shorthand, but we interpret it as meaning we\u0026rsquo;re wired to do one thing, match our work to that one thing, then we will love our work.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not actually the way it works.\nJames on Cal\u0026rsquo;s Advice # James: Wow. Some really cool thoughts there from Cal. To summarise his points, there were three things he thought were not great about the follow-your-passion advice. One was that we don\u0026rsquo;t actually have clear passions, so most people don\u0026rsquo;t really know what they\u0026rsquo;re even passionate about. Especially when you\u0026rsquo;re young, you might not have anything that you\u0026rsquo;re super passionate about.\nNumber two, as he said, there\u0026rsquo;s not a lot of good evidence that matching the content of your work to a pre-existing interest is a major driver of job satisfaction. Number three, and this is something that I\u0026rsquo;ve really seen a lot of, as I\u0026rsquo;ve done a lot of podcasts: we\u0026rsquo;ve now interviewed over 30 people on Graduate Theory.\nOne of the key themes is exactly that: Most people don\u0026rsquo;t actually follow this advice. Most people who get up there and say, \u0026ldquo;Follow your passion\u0026rdquo; didn\u0026rsquo;t actually do that. They did something and ended up being passionate about it later rather than starting with an existing passion and then matching a career to that.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s something that I\u0026rsquo;ve absolutely picked up, and something that even in my personal life has been true: things that I\u0026rsquo;ve enjoyed doing haven\u0026rsquo;t necessarily been something that I was passionate about before I started doing them. Certainly, you could take almost any successful person.\nThe chances are they didn\u0026rsquo;t do it this way. They didn\u0026rsquo;t start out with some crazy passion about a topic or about a career or a job and then somehow turn that into the thing that they do for a living. Often, passions come after you decide to do something.\nAnother piece of advice that I found online around this topic was a fantastic talk by Ben Horowitz. Ben Horowitz is a co-founder of a16z, which is one of the world\u0026rsquo;s biggest venture capital firms.\nHe gave a talk to the graduating class at Columbia University in 2015. This is a really, really fantastic talk. All of the links and videos that I\u0026rsquo;ve shared here will be in the show notes somewhere. I encourage you to go watch this later, but this is fantastic, and he has some really good thoughts on passions and why following your passion isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily the best idea.\nHe discusses some problems he saw with that and what you should do instead, because it\u0026rsquo;s important to know: if we\u0026rsquo;re not going to follow our passion, what are we going to do instead? I liked what he had to say here. Here is Ben sharing with us.\nBen Horowitz on Following Your Passion # Ben Horowitz: Don\u0026rsquo;t follow your passion. Now, you\u0026rsquo;re probably thinking that\u0026rsquo;s a really dumb idea because everybody who\u0026rsquo;s successful—if you poll a thousand people who are successful, they\u0026rsquo;ll all say that they love what they do. The broad conclusion of the world is that if you do what you love, then you\u0026rsquo;ll be successful. But we\u0026rsquo;re engineers.\nWe know that might be true, but it also might be the case that if you\u0026rsquo;re successful, you love what you do. You just love being successful and everybody loves you. It\u0026rsquo;s awesome.\nWhich one is it? Well, I think to figure it out, you have to go back in time. You have to back off from when you were successful to right now, when you\u0026rsquo;re graduating as the class of 2015, and the first tricky thing about passions is that they\u0026rsquo;re hard to prioritise. Which passion is it? Are you more passionate about math or engineering?\nAre you more passionate about history or literature? Are you more passionate about video games or K-pop? These are tough decisions. How do you even know? On the other hand, what are you good at? Are you better at math or writing? That\u0026rsquo;s a much easier thing to figure out. The second thing that\u0026rsquo;s tricky if you\u0026rsquo;re going forward in time with this follow-your-passion idea is that what you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about at 21 is not necessarily what you\u0026rsquo;re going to be passionate about at 40. This is true for boyfriends as well as career choices.\nThe third issue with following your passion is that you\u0026rsquo;re not necessarily good at your passion. Has anybody ever watched American Idol? Just because you love singing doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean you should be a professional singer. Finally, and most importantly, following your passion is a very me-centred view of the world.\nWhen you go through life, what you\u0026rsquo;ll find is what you take out of the world over time—be it money, cars, stuff or accolades—is much less important than what you put into the world. My recommendation would be: follow your contribution. Find the thing that you\u0026rsquo;re great at, put that into the world, contribute to others, help the world be better.\nThat is the thing to follow.\nJames on Ben Horowitz # James: That\u0026rsquo;s a really interesting piece from Ben. What we heard from him was an interesting distinction: it\u0026rsquo;s this chicken or egg problem. Which is it? Do you follow your passion and then love what you do, or do you love what you do and then become passionate about it afterwards? I think that was a really interesting thing there.\nCertainly it seems from the people we\u0026rsquo;ve seen and the things we\u0026rsquo;ve heard so far, it\u0026rsquo;s definitely more of the latter. You become passionate as you get better at what you do; that definitely seems to be the case. To summarise the things that Ben said, many of which are similar to what Cal had to say, Ben\u0026rsquo;s reasons for not following our passion, and his thoughts on deciding what to do instead, were that often we don\u0026rsquo;t have clear passions and our passions change over time.\nSomething you might be passionate about when you\u0026rsquo;re younger might not be when you\u0026rsquo;re older. That makes it hard to have a career that\u0026rsquo;s based on your passion when it\u0026rsquo;s changing. You might not actually be good at your passion. The American Idol example—or whatever talent shows you might have seen—was a really good one.\nPeople can be passionate about things and not very good at them. That might be a reason not to have it as your career if you\u0026rsquo;re not actually good at your passion. I loved what he finished with, which was: let\u0026rsquo;s do something that can benefit the entire world and let\u0026rsquo;s do something that can put some good into the world.\nPerhaps you can be passionate about providing something great for the world and that can be something that you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about and build your career on, rather than it being, \u0026ldquo;How can I get my needs met?\u0026rdquo; I thought that was a really interesting piece there from him.\nI think we\u0026rsquo;ve covered a lot of ground here. It\u0026rsquo;s clear to me through my experiences and the people I\u0026rsquo;ve spoken to, and even clearer from researching this topic, hearing from these people and researching this episode, that our passions should not be the things that we use to decide what we\u0026rsquo;re going to do.\nThe things that we\u0026rsquo;re passionate about are things like sport and fun things, whereas the things that we\u0026rsquo;re going to have a career in are things that are meaningful and where we can have a positive impact. We can develop passions for these things as we go on.\nThis is what\u0026rsquo;s really important. Cal was explaining this well, I thought, when he said that following your passion isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily starting with your passion and then finding a job. It\u0026rsquo;s more about having the goal of becoming passionate about whatever it is that we decide to do.\nWe want to have our passion eventually, but it\u0026rsquo;s not the place to start. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a really interesting insight: we can all strive to become passionate about what it is that we do. That can be by becoming better at what you do. Perhaps that will give you more passion.\nIf you are better, you have more accomplishments in the field. Perhaps you\u0026rsquo;re able to create a bigger impact and have a positive impact on others and on the world. Perhaps that will increase your passion for what it is you do. These are things that you can do, and something worth striving for is: \u0026ldquo;How can I become more passionate about the things that I do?\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s certainly a way that you can increase your career satisfaction. One thing I want to finish with as well is this talk from Scott Galloway. Now Scott is a professor of marketing at the New York University School of Business. He\u0026rsquo;s a public speaker, author, entrepreneur, et cetera, and he had a really interesting piece to say on this topic of passion as well.\nI think he had similar thoughts to mine on what you should do. If you don\u0026rsquo;t follow your passion, what else should you do instead? We\u0026rsquo;ll hear from him now.\nScott Galloway on Following Your Passion # Scott Galloway: Another one of my mentors told me, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t follow your passion,\u0026rdquo; and that\u0026rsquo;s always stuck with me. I thought, \u0026ldquo;What do you mean?\u0026rdquo; And he said, \u0026ldquo;Well, find something you\u0026rsquo;re good at.\u0026rdquo; In business school, what I noticed is that every speaker always says, \u0026ldquo;Follow your passion.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s how they end their talk.\n\u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s your one piece of advice for young people?\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;Follow your passion.\u0026rdquo; What things are people passionate about? Luxury, food, entertainment and sports. Those areas are massively overinvested. A very small fraction—less than 1%—of the people who are passionate about those things are able to make a living at them and God bless them.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s a lot of very well-publicised wins around people who follow their passion and become fabulously wealthy. But what\u0026rsquo;s so unusual about this is what I find is that the people who are telling you to follow your passion are already rich. They typically got rich following their passion of software as a service for healthcare scheduling.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;Oh, that was your passion.\u0026rdquo; Let me tell you what their passion was. Anytime someone tells you to follow their passion, it means their passion was getting rich so they could buy a fat car and marry someone much better looking than them. That is their passion. I would say: find something in your work that gives you joy and disproportionately allocate as much time as you can, based on your credibility in the organisation, to that part of your job that just gives you joy. I think that\u0026rsquo;s about as good as you can do. Then find something you\u0026rsquo;re good at so you can develop the economic currency to live a nice lifestyle and spend more and more time as you get older, following your true passions.\nFinal Thoughts # James: I think he\u0026rsquo;s absolutely right: let\u0026rsquo;s start with the things you\u0026rsquo;re good at. Find a job doing the things that you\u0026rsquo;re good at, and then let\u0026rsquo;s try and get better at those. Let\u0026rsquo;s try and do the things or the parts of the job that you enjoy the most and try and build out your career to the point where you have some leverage to work less or get paid more or whatever it is so that you can then start to spend more time on the things that you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about outside of work.\nI think that is a fantastic strategy and a fantastic way to wrap up this episode. I hope that you\u0026rsquo;ve seen throughout this episode that perhaps following your passion as a starting point isn\u0026rsquo;t really the best idea, but the end goal is really to be passionate about the things that you do.\nWhether the passion comes before the job or comes as a result of being good at what you do, most successful people—and most people who have great careers—are passionate about what they do. That is something that you should absolutely try and build.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll leave it there.\nI wish you all the best going out and building that passion for what it is that you do. Thanks so much again for listening to the Graduate Theory podcast. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider going to GraduateTheory.com where you can subscribe to the newsletter. You get my takeaways from each podcast episode straight to your inbox every single week.\nThanks again for listening and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you next week. Bye for now.\n← Back to episode 32\n","date":"30 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/32-dont-follow-your-passion/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 32\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Why You Shouldn't Follow Your Passion","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Graduate Theory exists to provide graduates with tips and advice to go from uncertain uni students to thriving early career professionals.\nWe spoke with someone on the same mission this week, going from grad to grown-up.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t miss this newsletter, straight to you, every week 👇\nSubscribe Now\nGene Rice is Chairman Rice-Cohen International, one of the top executive recruiters in the world.\nHe has recently co-authored a book with his daughter Courtney called “Grad to Grown Up”, sharing 68 tips to Excel in Your Personal and Professional Life.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # This episode had plenty of gems, you\u0026rsquo;re going to want to write these down.\nEnsuring a good fit for yourself and a company # Gene had a set of questions that he would ask people to see if they were a good fit for a business.\nHere is that list 👇\nwhen have you been the happiest professionally? What was going on that made you feel that way? What do you enjoy most about your current role? If you were the CEO of your current company, what would you change about the company? What would you change about your role? If you could design your next ideal role, what would the company be like? What would the culture be like? What makes a good long-term fit between a person and a company? # Gene spoke about the traits he had seen in people that go on to do great things at companies.\nHere are some things to think about to ensure you have a good fit for your next role\nYou can add value In one year, you can say you have grown professionally You respect your boss Find Your Passion # One of Gene\u0026rsquo;s big points is that people should seek to find their passion.\nHere\u0026rsquo;s what he had to say:\nI think one of the greatest goals in life should be for every human being to find something that they sincerely loved doing, and then to do it well enough that you can create a career doing it Because if you can do that and if you can find that thing you love and you can make a living doing it, you wake up in the morning, not going to work, you don\u0026rsquo;t wake up in the morning, go into a job. You wake up in the morning going to something you sincerely love. My personal experience is your health is better, your personal relationships are better. The glass isn\u0026rsquo;t half full, it can be overflowing and you can have purpose in your life.\nBecoming a grandmaster of interviewing # One of Gene\u0026rsquo;s main areas of expertise is interviewing, and how to become what he calls a \u0026lsquo;grandmaster\u0026rsquo;.\nHere is his list of things that you should do, to become a grandmaster of interviewing.\nestablish chemistry ask for what\u0026rsquo;s most important (the answers to the test) don’t ask win-lose questions deal with concerns follow up Get the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Gene # https://www.linkedin.com/in/grice113\n👩‍🎓 Grad to Grown-Up # https://www.amazon.com/Grad-Grown-Up-Excel-Personal-Professional/dp/1637581920\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Gene Rice\n00:49 Intro\n01:38 Questions Gene asks to ensure a good fit\n13:10 Gene on asking for a pay rise\n24:47 How Gene would find his passion today\n34:17 Becoming a grandmaster of interviewing\n46:40 What parts of the book are underappreciated?\n51:21 Gene\u0026rsquo;s advice for Graduates\n56:03 Outro\n","date":"23 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/31-gene-rice/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Graduate Theory exists to provide graduates with tips and advice to go from uncertain uni students to thriving early career professionals.\n","title":"Gene Rice | On The Journey from Grad to Grown-up","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 31\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nGene: There was a recent survey from The Conference Board which said that 48 per cent of 25- to 35-year-olds don\u0026rsquo;t have job satisfaction. Among 55- to 65-year-olds in America, 52 per cent don\u0026rsquo;t have job satisfaction. That\u0026rsquo;s sad to me. Shame on the older people for not figuring it out. I want to tell you young adults: figure it out. Find that thing you love. Don\u0026rsquo;t give up your dreams, and figure out how to make a career doing it.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is the chairman of Rice Cohen International, and he\u0026rsquo;s one of the top executive recruiters in the world.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s recently co-authored a book with his daughter, Courtney, called Grad to Grown-Up, where they share 68 tips to excel in your personal and professional life. Please welcome to the show today, Gene Rice.\nGene: James, thank you for inviting me. I look forward to our conversation, my friend.\nJames: Thanks, mate. It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on all the way from America as well. It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have these conversations with people like yourself. I\u0026rsquo;d love to start today by talking about some of your experiences in executive recruitment, trying to connect people to jobs and that whole process.\nQuestions Gene asks to ensure a good fit # James: What sort of questions do you ask someone to try to work out where they might be best suited?\nGene: My firm was a retained executive search firm. The difference is that clients would come to us, pay us a fee and work exclusively with us. We got paid whether we made the placement or not, so we really became a consultant to the client.\nThank God we made most of the placements, but when we interviewed people to see whether they were a good fit, there were questions I would always include. I\u0026rsquo;ve placed over a thousand C-level executives, and my company has placed tens of thousands. Even before I shared information about what my client was looking for, I would ask questions to make sure it was a good fit.\nI would ask, \u0026ldquo;In your own career, when have you been the happiest professionally, and what was going on that made you feel that way?\u0026rdquo; Then I would follow up: \u0026ldquo;In your current role, what do you enjoy most? If you were the CEO of your current company, what would you change about the company? What would you change about your role?\u0026rdquo; That would give us insight into whether there was any pain or anything they were unhappy about. Then I would always say, \u0026ldquo;If I gave you a magic wand and said you could design the ideal next position for yourself, what would you create? What would the company be doing? What would the culture be like? What would your role be like?\u0026rdquo;\nI encourage candidates to ask themselves those simple questions. Their answers gave me a snapshot: can my client offer the things that made this candidate happiest and the things they enjoy most? If so, I could say, \u0026ldquo;I called you about a specific client of ours for whom we\u0026rsquo;re doing a retained search. Let me share how they could match the things you\u0026rsquo;ve told me.\u0026rdquo;\nIn the 30 years I\u0026rsquo;ve been doing executive search, there are three things I\u0026rsquo;ve identified that will make not only a good short-term fit between a candidate and a company but, more importantly, a good long-term fit. I always encourage people to look for these three things.\nThe first applies to everyone, from someone in an entry-level role to a senior role: you should feel that by joining this firm, you can come in, add value and make a contribution. You should feel, \u0026ldquo;I can join this firm and add something here.\u0026rdquo;\nEqually importantly, after a year at a new firm, you should be able to look yourself in the mirror and say, \u0026ldquo;By joining this company, I\u0026rsquo;ve grown professionally in these ways.\u0026rdquo; You have to contribute, but you also have to grow. For a young adult, that professional growth is probably more important.\nThe third and most important thing is where a lot of people, especially young adults, go astray. The first two can be present, but if the third is not, I\u0026rsquo;m going to strongly recommend that this is not the right place for you. You should not only respect the person you\u0026rsquo;re reporting to and the people you\u0026rsquo;ll be working closely with; you should like them enough personally that, if you had to break bread with them over a business lunch or dinner, it wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be something you dreaded doing. Personal relationships are critical.\nFor a young adult, that immediate supervisor is the most important because, if you go in and hate him or her, you\u0026rsquo;re going to be unhappy and looking for a new position in a very short period of time. Those are the things I would encourage your audience to look for.\nThose things have helped me in my executive search career, as well as helping people feel that it\u0026rsquo;s a good match.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s a great checklist for people. I certainly liked what you said about the growth aspect of a role being important in the early days, and being able to say that you\u0026rsquo;ve learnt a certain amount by working at that company. Especially when you\u0026rsquo;re young, there\u0026rsquo;s a lot to learn. If you\u0026rsquo;re not learning, something is a little bit wrong, so you should certainly look out for that.\nGene: I\u0026rsquo;ll add one other thing for your audience. This is something my firm created and used. Some of the biggest search firms in the world—Korn Ferry, Spencer Stuart and Heidrick \u0026amp; Struggles—have come to us and used my firm to hire some of their senior staff.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve shared this with them, but I would encourage your audience to do it too. Before you go to an interview, identify what attracts you to the company and the position. Why are you willing to take the time to interview with this company? Sometimes you don\u0026rsquo;t know much before the first interview, but you can do your research. You can look online, Google the company, read its mission statement and find out what the firm is all about. I would encourage candidates to keep a sheet of paper after every interview.\nMy search professionals would do this with our candidates. We would ask, \u0026ldquo;What are the reasons you\u0026rsquo;re interested in this position? What\u0026rsquo;s attracting you?\u0026rdquo; After every interview, we would ask, \u0026ldquo;Did those reasons hold true? Did any new reasons surface? What questions or concerns must be addressed before you\u0026rsquo;re in a position to make the best decision for you and your family about whether this is the right company for you?\u0026rdquo;\nAt a certain point, we might suggest reasons they hadn\u0026rsquo;t mentioned because we knew they were advantages. Maybe the company had a better pension plan, a longer holiday policy or a new product coming out. By the end of the interviewing process, after three, four or five interviews, there should be 12, 13 or 14 reasons why they\u0026rsquo;re interested. Money can be one of them, James, but if money is the only thing driving you to a new job, you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t take that job. As soon as someone else offers you a little more money, you\u0026rsquo;ll leave.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll end up being a ping-pong ball, and it will affect your career. I encourage people to identify why they\u0026rsquo;re taking the time to interview and, at the end, why they want to join this firm in this position.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really beneficial. You mentioned being a ping-pong ball in terms of money and how that can be detrimental to your career. We hear a lot about how changing roles can be good from a money perspective, particularly early on, but I\u0026rsquo;m interested to hear how it can be seen as negative when you do that.\nGene: With what\u0026rsquo;s going on with COVID, some of the rules have changed, but only in the short term, in my opinion. I can\u0026rsquo;t tell you how many clients, when we took on a retained search, would say under their qualifications, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t care who the candidate is or how strong the candidate is.\n\u0026ldquo;If they\u0026rsquo;ve had more than two jobs in a five-year period, I do not want to interview them. I am not interested.\u0026rdquo; Why is that? They feel the candidate has no loyalty and will leave as soon as someone offers them more money. In every position, no matter how great the company or onboarding process is, there is a learning curve and an adjustment you have to go through.\nFirms don\u0026rsquo;t want people who leave the first time there\u0026rsquo;s a challenge. They want people who are going to hang in there. That\u0026rsquo;s why I say that.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. Does that apply more to senior people, or should someone in the first few years of their career still avoid doing things like that?\nGene: If they absolutely hate their job or their manager and they\u0026rsquo;re not growing professionally, then they have to look and leave. But, in my strong professional opinion, you don\u0026rsquo;t want to leave your first job too quickly. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to hang in there for at least two years.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got to learn. Otherwise, people think you\u0026rsquo;re going to bounce every time there\u0026rsquo;s any difficulty. You have to get your feet under you and stay there for a period of time. When you make decisions, you should be thinking, \u0026ldquo;Is this a place where I can spend the next five years of my career?\u0026rdquo;\nAs you move up and progress, companies are looking for that. They\u0026rsquo;re not looking for someone who takes a different role every two years.\nGene: I think Australia and New Zealand are very similar to the States. Because my firm was recognised, I was invited to be the keynote speaker one year at the Australia and New Zealand executive search conference in Christchurch, New Zealand.\nI couldn\u0026rsquo;t accept the invitation because my kids were young, and it\u0026rsquo;s one of my greatest regrets. I think search is very similar in Australia and New Zealand to how it is here in North America.\nJames: As you were saying, try not to leave jobs when it gets hard or because you\u0026rsquo;ve joined a company that perhaps isn\u0026rsquo;t the right fit. If you\u0026rsquo;re going to move, it\u0026rsquo;s important to use that checklist you mentioned earlier and have at least ten reasons why this company is a good place. Being really sure about that is important.\nGene: Sometimes you can\u0026rsquo;t help making a move. Your company might be sold, or things might change. If a move had to take place for reasons outside your control, I encourage you to list the reason why when you put your résumé or CV together.\nThen, instead of simply seeing that you spent only a year here and two years there, people can see the reasons behind those moves. I would put that directly on the CV or résumé.\nGene on asking for a pay rise # James: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. I also want to ask you about negotiating a salary, perhaps a pay rise and that kind of thing, because I\u0026rsquo;m sure you\u0026rsquo;ve been involved in situations like that. Do you have any process or recommendations for someone going through that?\nGene: Here\u0026rsquo;s what I first want your audience to know. It\u0026rsquo;s okay upfront, especially if there\u0026rsquo;s a search firm or recruiter involved, to let them know what you\u0026rsquo;re looking for from a compensation perspective. What I\u0026rsquo;ve seen, especially with young adults, is that they get the offer and automatically accept it. I want you to know that, if you\u0026rsquo;ve gone through an interviewing process and the company offers you a job, trying to negotiate that offer is not going to jeopardise the offer or cause them to take away the written offer. I always recommend getting the offer in writing.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s when the rules of the game change. Now they\u0026rsquo;re in control because the firm wants them. It\u0026rsquo;s perfectly okay to go back if you do it professionally. One of the chapters in Grad to Grown-Up talks about how to negotiate the offer once you get it. It\u0026rsquo;s perfectly okay to say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really excited,\u0026rdquo; but you have to do it the right way.\nYou send an email back and say, \u0026ldquo;I am really excited about your company, and here are the reasons why. I know I can really contribute, and here are the reasons why. Thank you so much for your offer, but after reviewing it, I was hoping to get a higher base salary.\u0026rdquo; If there are reasons for that—maybe you have to move or you\u0026rsquo;ll be commuting further—you explain them.\nIf there is no other reason, perhaps you know that some of the other companies you interviewed with were discussing a higher base salary. You say, \u0026ldquo;If you can raise the base salary by this amount, I\u0026rsquo;m prepared to resign and start on such-and-such a date.\u0026rdquo; You have to know how to go back and ask. First, tell them why you\u0026rsquo;re attracted to their company and why you believe you\u0026rsquo;ll do a great job for them.\nThen ask for what you want, but offer them something in return: \u0026ldquo;If you\u0026rsquo;re willing to do this, I\u0026rsquo;m ready to resign and start on this date.\u0026rdquo; A lot of the time, they\u0026rsquo;ll meet you in the middle. They might say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m sorry, you\u0026rsquo;re at the top of the range,\u0026rdquo; but at least you tried. Then you can go back again. If they won\u0026rsquo;t increase your base salary, you can ask, \u0026ldquo;If you can\u0026rsquo;t increase the base salary, could you guarantee my bonus? Could you give me a review earlier than normal, which would then qualify me for an increase? Could you give me another week\u0026rsquo;s holiday?\u0026rdquo;\nYou ask for other things that might not be base-salary-related and see what they say. In my experience, they will increase the base salary 60 to 65 per cent of the time. If they won\u0026rsquo;t, in another 20 to 25 per cent of cases they\u0026rsquo;ll guarantee a bonus or do an early review so they can increase your base salary.\nIf nothing else, I would say they\u0026rsquo;d give you an extra week\u0026rsquo;s holiday. My experience has been that, 95 per cent of the time, if you do it professionally, you can get more than the company gave you in the offer letter. I encourage people to do that. Does that answer your question?\nJames: It can be quite scary, or nerve-racking, to go back and say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d really like a little bit more,\u0026rdquo; because you feel that, if they say no, you could lose the job and all that kind of stuff.\nGene: I want your audience to know they will not retract the offer. That\u0026rsquo;s what people are afraid of, but they will not retract it. In fact, they\u0026rsquo;ll respect you more for negotiating. There is a way of doing it, though. You don\u0026rsquo;t simply go back and say, \u0026ldquo;I was really hoping for a higher base salary.\u0026rdquo;\nYou have to do it professionally. Thank them for the offer. Tell them why you\u0026rsquo;re so excited about their company and why you know you\u0026rsquo;ll do a great job: \u0026ldquo;Here are the reasons why I know this is a great match.\u0026rdquo; When you ask for something, give them something in return.\n\u0026ldquo;If you give it to me, I will resign immediately and start for you on such-and-such a date.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s how you go back professionally and address it.\nJames: Those are some really useful tips.\nGene: Here\u0026rsquo;s what I want to tell your audience, based on what I\u0026rsquo;ve experienced with people your age. Grad to Grown-Up was based on more than 25 years of me bringing four college interns into my company every summer for eight weeks.\nThese were very bright students, the large majority going into their last year of college. They competed against other candidates for the internship, so they were bright and talented. When I brought them into my company, I felt that they were investing eight weeks in my firm.\nI felt it was important to spend some time with them, so once a week I spent two hours with them. It started as \u0026ldquo;Gene\u0026rsquo;s life lessons\u0026rdquo;: the things I wish I\u0026rsquo;d known going into my last year of university. What came out of it were all their questions: \u0026ldquo;Can you talk about this? Can you talk about this?\u0026rdquo;\nI was initially amazed at how ill-prepared the large majority of them were to start not only their professional careers but their personal lives. My interns went on to become lawyers, doctors, accountants, engineers and professional athletes.\nA lot of them came back to me years later. They had pursued a job or career because someone influential—a parent, grandparent or teacher—had said, \u0026ldquo;You should go into this field. You can make a good living.\u0026rdquo; So many went into it and, once they did, hated what they were doing. They went to school for all those years and then hated the work when they finally did it. Two of my former interns went to two of the best law schools in America, NYU and Boston College. Both graduated in the top 25 per cent of their class and went to work for big law firms.\nA year into it, they hated waking up in the morning and going to work. There are two things I want to encourage your audience to do. First, pursue your passions. One of the greatest goals in life should be for every human being to find something they sincerely love doing, and then do it well enough to create a career from it. If you can find that thing you love and make a living doing it, you don\u0026rsquo;t wake up in the morning to go to work or to a job. You wake up to go to something you sincerely love.\nIn my personal experience, your health is better and your personal relationships are better. The glass isn\u0026rsquo;t half-full; it can be overflowing, and you can have purpose in your life. I encourage your audience to do that.\nWhen they find something they think they\u0026rsquo;re passionate about, even if they want to be a lawyer or an accountant, I encourage them to do internships, even unpaid ones. I\u0026rsquo;ll give you an example. My daughter, with whom I wrote the book, went to one of the best universities here, Lehigh University.\nShe double-majored in English and economics and graduated at the top of her class. At her university, if she achieved a certain grade level, they would pay for her advanced degree, and they did. She thought she wanted to be a lawyer. Based on my experience, I said, \u0026ldquo;Courtney, let\u0026rsquo;s see if we can find a small law firm that will take you in this summer and expose you to what it\u0026rsquo;s like to be a lawyer. We\u0026rsquo;ll tell them you\u0026rsquo;re willing to work for free.\u0026rdquo; She found a small law firm where a partner took her in. He exposed her to every part of being a lawyer—the research and administrative work—and took her into the courtroom multiple times.\nAt the end of that summer, she had no interest in being a lawyer. She had thought that, coming out of this prestigious university, she should be doing something like that. Her passion had always been teaching in the classroom, but she thought that was beneath her education. She became a high school English teacher. She loves waking up, and her students love her. Maybe she doesn\u0026rsquo;t make as much money as she might have as a lawyer, but she\u0026rsquo;s much happier and has purpose in her life.\nI encourage your audience to follow their dreams. Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Do not give up your passions. Try to find purpose in your life. I strongly encourage people to do an internship before they graduate from university and say, \u0026ldquo;This is what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do for the rest of my life.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s my experience.\nThere was a recent survey from The Conference Board which said that 48 per cent of 25- to 35-year-olds don\u0026rsquo;t have job satisfaction. Among 55- to 65-year-olds in America, 52 per cent don\u0026rsquo;t have job satisfaction. That\u0026rsquo;s sad to me. Shame on the older people for not figuring it out. I want to tell you young adults: figure it out. Find that thing you love. Don\u0026rsquo;t give up your dreams, and figure out how to make a career doing it.\nHow Gene would find his passion today # James: Have you thought about how you would go about finding that passion? Interning for free somewhere you think you might like and testing it out is a great approach. Is there anything else you would say to your younger self about trying to find your passion and something that really clicked with you?\nGene: I\u0026rsquo;m going to give you a real-life example, because I mentor a lot of young adults. My wife and I started a charity that helps children aged 10 to 18 who come from underserved environments and have a passion but not the money to pursue it.\nOur charity is called the Plant a Seed Inspire a Dream Foundation. We step in and match the young person with a teacher, mentor or coach. It could be for guitar or singing lessons, every sport you could imagine, dance, gymnastics or whatever it might be.\nAnother charity had heard about ours. In America, these young people are called foster kids. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether you have that in Australia, but basically their parents have either died or given them up, and they live with other families in foster homes.\nThis charity would help a foster child get into college. If they went to college and couldn\u0026rsquo;t get their first job, it would contact mentors who might be able to offer guidance. The charity called me because it knew me through our charity and said, \u0026ldquo;We have this great young man graduating from Temple University.\n\u0026ldquo;Would you speak to him? He\u0026rsquo;s having a very hard time getting his first job.\u0026rdquo; I agreed and scheduled a call with him. The first thing I asked was, \u0026ldquo;What was your major?\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;Sports management.\u0026rdquo; Everyone in America wants to go into sports management, but there are no jobs.\nYou usually get the few jobs there are because you know somebody—a relative or family friend. It\u0026rsquo;s very difficult to break into the sports management industry in America. I don\u0026rsquo;t know how it is in Australia, but it\u0026rsquo;s very difficult here. I asked him, \u0026ldquo;How passionate are you about this?\u0026rdquo;\nHe said, \u0026ldquo;I am extremely passionate.\u0026rdquo; I asked what he had done so far. He was from Philadelphia and said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve sent my résumé to the Philadelphia Eagles, the Philadelphia 76ers, the Philadelphia Union and the Philadelphia Flyers.\u0026rdquo; I asked what had happened. He said, \u0026ldquo;No one\u0026rsquo;s got back to me.\u0026rdquo;\nI said, \u0026ldquo;Let me explain rule number one. If they were looking for someone with absolutely no experience, they\u0026rsquo;re going to reach out to you and the other thousand résumés they received. You\u0026rsquo;re never going to get a job that way. I\u0026rsquo;m going to ask you two questions. How passionate are you? I will help you, but we\u0026rsquo;re going to have to go on a journey together.\n\u0026ldquo;If we get lucky, you\u0026rsquo;ll probably end up in Des Moines, Iowa, working for the lowest-level baseball franchise there is. Are you willing to pick up from Philadelphia and move to Des Moines?\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll move anywhere.\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Okay. The second thing I need you to tell me is your plan B. If we go on this journey together and strike out, which we might, I want to know what other kind of job you\u0026rsquo;ll take.\n\u0026ldquo;What other kind of role would interest you? I don\u0026rsquo;t want to start this without a backup plan.\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;I would take a sales role.\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Great. There are many different sales jobs we can pursue.\u0026rdquo;\nHere\u0026rsquo;s what we did, and what I want your audience to understand. During my executive search career, because I was on several lists of the world\u0026rsquo;s top executive recruiters, I received between 80 and 120 résumés every week. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t even read them all. If I could help one person out of those hundred résumés, that was probably a lot. The retained executive search industry works by specialising in a vertical market and becoming the top executive recruiter in that field. My fields were management consulting and education technology, or edtech.\nWe placed the managing partner at McKinsey, the managing partner at KPMG and the CEO of Mercer Consulting. If you came from that industry, I could probably help. You could be the CEO of the best medical device company in the world, but I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be the right person because my relationships aren\u0026rsquo;t in that industry.\nHowever, twice a year on average, I would get an email from a young person like you. It would say something like this:\n\u0026ldquo;I have a passion for the executive search or human resources industry. I\u0026rsquo;ve done some research and know you\u0026rsquo;re a thought leader in the industry. Would you spend a few minutes with me and give me some guidance?\u0026rdquo; I would always respond to that type of email and spend time with that young person.\nI want you to know that 99 per cent of senior executives would do the same. If for no other reason, they would want someone to help their family member. I would always do that.\nThe strategy I followed with this young man was to have him research and identify every C-level executive within 100 miles of Philadelphia. I wanted him to start with the major franchises—the 76ers, the Eagles and the Union—and then go down through Triple-A, Double-A and Single-A.\nI said, \u0026ldquo;Once we strike out there, we\u0026rsquo;ll expand in 300-mile radiuses. If we get lucky, you\u0026rsquo;ll end up in Des Moines, Iowa.\u0026rdquo; He did the research, identified the C-level executives\u0026rsquo; names and found their email addresses. I helped him write the email, and he sent it out. He called me back and said, \u0026ldquo;The chief marketing officer of the Philadelphia 76ers says he can spend some time with me on Friday.\u0026rdquo; I helped him prepare for that call and said, \u0026ldquo;When the call is over, I want you to call me.\u0026rdquo;\nAfterwards, he called me and I asked how it had gone. He said, \u0026ldquo;I think it went well. He invited me to meet four people on Tuesday.\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Wait a second. He\u0026rsquo;s inviting you to meet four people on Tuesday.\n\u0026ldquo;That means there\u0026rsquo;s a job. He\u0026rsquo;s not going to waste your time and his staff\u0026rsquo;s time if there isn\u0026rsquo;t one.\u0026rdquo; I prepared him for how to conduct those interviews. He ended up being hired in the corporate sales department of the Philadelphia 76ers, and he\u0026rsquo;s now working for one of the big hockey franchises on the West Coast.\nTo answer your question, I would tell your audience not to be intimidated by contacting a senior person and asking for guidance and help. Be prepared for that call. Bring questions. Ask whether they know anyone who might be looking for someone, and share what you\u0026rsquo;re looking for.\nAsk whether you can stay in contact. If it goes well, there\u0026rsquo;s a position and they introduce you, you\u0026rsquo;ll be received very differently within that firm than if you sent your résumé in blind. That\u0026rsquo;s my first piece of advice.\nMy second is this: in chess, there\u0026rsquo;s a grandmaster; in science, there\u0026rsquo;s a Nobel Prize winner. I think one goal every human being should have is to become a grandmaster of interviewing. Learn how to interview like a grandmaster.\nWhy is that so important? When you\u0026rsquo;re interviewing for the job you really want, you\u0026rsquo;ll be interviewing against four or five other people. The grandmaster interviewer gets the job and gets paid better.\nIn Grad to Grown-Up, we take people through how to become a grandmaster interviewer. It\u0026rsquo;s a goal I want every young adult to have. Here in the States, students come out of universities and go to the career centre for advice.\nThe career centres don\u0026rsquo;t really have hands-on experience, so they all prepare students to interview in the same way. The students then interview exactly like every other university graduate. You want to separate yourself. You want to become that grandmaster.\nBecoming a grandmaster of interviewing # James: That was a really good story. Thanks for sharing it. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear about that process and what you were able to achieve. It shows that reaching out is something we can all do, and it can be life-changing if things go the right way.\nOn becoming a grandmaster of interviewing, what are the key things that could set you up? Is it preparing in a certain way, conducting yourself during the interview or something else? I\u0026rsquo;m interested to hear some of the key things.\nGene: Let me take you through it, although I probably won\u0026rsquo;t do it justice because there are five different chapters in the book about each stage. First, you\u0026rsquo;ve got to do upfront research before the interview. There are five key points to becoming a grandmaster, and I\u0026rsquo;ll take you through them.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll start by asking you a question. Let\u0026rsquo;s fast-forward ten years. You\u0026rsquo;re an executive with a company and have a key position to fill. You interview five candidates. At the end of the interview process, you and everyone else involved say, \u0026ldquo;Two of these candidates are exceptional.\n\u0026ldquo;Both can do a phenomenal job, they have equal experience and both want the job.\u0026rdquo; You have only one job to offer but two great candidates. If you were making the decision as the manager, what might make you choose one over the other?\nJames: Maybe it would be the one I get along with best.\nGene: All ties go to the candidate who made the best personal connection with you. The first step to becoming a grandmaster is being able to establish chemistry and rapport with the person you\u0026rsquo;re meeting. How do you do that? Beforehand, look at their LinkedIn profile.\nGoogle them and get as much background information as you can. Try to find out where they went to school so you have something to talk about when you go in. I always coached candidates not to go straight into the interview. Try to make a connection.\nIf you can\u0026rsquo;t do research beforehand, steal with your eyes when you go in: look around the room. If there\u0026rsquo;s a picture of the person with their child playing soccer or a picture of them fishing, your job is to establish rapport. Talk about the weather.\nTalk about how long they\u0026rsquo;ve been with the company, but establish chemistry. When the interview is over and you follow up within 24 hours with an email thanking them, I\u0026rsquo;m going to ask you to include that personal connection. That\u0026rsquo;s the first thing: establish chemistry and rapport.\nFor the second step, let me ask you a question. When you went to school, how much better would you have done on a test if you had the answers beforehand?\nJames: A lot better.\nGene: You\u0026rsquo;d do a lot better. That\u0026rsquo;s the second thing. Many people receive a job description they saw online, or perhaps a recruiter tells them what the company is looking for, and they assume that\u0026rsquo;s all the company wants.\nI want your audience to understand that different people contribute different parts when a job description is put together. HR or talent acquisition then assembles that description.\nEveryone you meet in an interview will have slightly different criteria. The direct boss will look for something very specific. The HR person will look for something very different, as will a peer or senior executive interviewing the candidate.\nI encourage people, early on after establishing rapport, to ask a simple question: \u0026ldquo;I was very interested in coming in and meeting with you today. I know we have a limited amount of time together.\n\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve read the job description, but would you mind sharing what\u0026rsquo;s most important to you in the background of the candidate you want to bring in for this role?\u0026rdquo; Then shut up. The first two or three things they tell you are the most important things to that person.\nYour responsibility before that interview ends is to share how you match their criteria. That\u0026rsquo;s the second step to becoming a grandmaster. You have to work on the wording; each person asks that question a little differently. If you can get the answers to the test before taking it, try to get them.\nThe third step is that, in every interview, you\u0026rsquo;ll be asked a series of questions. They could be behaviour-based questions, which are very common. Grad to Grown-Up explains exactly what behaviour-based interviewing is and the kinds of questions to expect.\nYou need to understand how to answer those questions professionally, and we teach people how to do that. Equally, a time will come when they ask, \u0026ldquo;Do you have any questions for me?\u0026rdquo; This is where many young adults go astray.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll give you an example. Someone recently asked me to help a young engineering graduate from one of the top universities here, Penn State University. He had a great GPA, looked like he\u0026rsquo;d walked out of GQ magazine and had a very professional appearance, yet he had nine interviews and no offers. Coming from that school with an engineering degree and his GPA, he should have received four or five offers from those nine interviews.\nWhen I asked him to take me through the interviews, I found that he was asking what I call \u0026ldquo;win-lose questions\u0026rdquo;. I want your audience to know that every question someone has should be answered before they accept or decline a job, but there\u0026rsquo;s a time and place to ask it.\nAt one company, when asked whether he had any questions, he said, \u0026ldquo;Yes. I noticed your stock price has been declining. Can you tell me why?\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a question you may want to ask, but wait until you have the offer. At another company, he said, \u0026ldquo;I did some research and know your CEO has some sexual harassment charges against him. How is that going?\u0026rdquo; People automatically think he feels negatively about the company.\nI cover win-win questions. Your audience can go to the Grad to Grown-Up website, gradtogrownup.com, and download for free the win-win questions they should ask in an interview. They\u0026rsquo;re very basic questions, but they make a real difference.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the third skill in becoming a grandmaster: answering their questions appropriately and asking the right questions. The fourth is that many people leave an interview thinking it went well, without realising that the interviewer might have had one or two concerns.\nEveryone who conducts interviews will have some concern about a candidate. Sometimes the candidate is overqualified; sometimes they\u0026rsquo;re underqualified. As an executive search professional, the only time I became concerned was when there were no concerns, because concerns are buying signals. Accept that they\u0026rsquo;ll have concerns. What\u0026rsquo;s not acceptable is failing to give them an opportunity to verbalise those concerns to you.\nIf the concern is based on a false premise, you can overcome it and get agreement that it\u0026rsquo;s no longer a concern. If it\u0026rsquo;s real, minimise it and maximise your strengths. Towards the end of the interview, say something like, \u0026ldquo;I was excited about meeting with you and, after spending time with you, my interest has increased\u0026rdquo;—if that\u0026rsquo;s true—\u0026ldquo;and here\u0026rsquo;s why. Also, based on what you\u0026rsquo;ve shared about what you\u0026rsquo;re looking for in a candidate\u0026rsquo;s background, I believe I\u0026rsquo;m a strong fit, and here\u0026rsquo;s why. Do you have any concerns about whether I could add value to ABC Company in this role?\u0026rdquo; Then shut up.\nIf they come back with a concern based on a false premise, simply say, \u0026ldquo;I can understand why you might feel that way, but let me share why I don\u0026rsquo;t believe that\u0026rsquo;s a concern.\u0026rdquo; Address it and finish by asking, \u0026ldquo;Does that make you feel better about that concern?\u0026rdquo;\nIf the concern is real, imagine someone said to me, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m completely bald. I need someone with a full head of hair.\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;I cannot grow any more hair, but I have a work ethic that\u0026rsquo;s second to none. I\u0026rsquo;ll be the first person in the office in the morning and the last to leave. You\u0026rsquo;ll find nobody who will do more research on their own and nobody more loyal to the firm.\n\u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ll find no one the staff will enjoy working with more than me. If given the opportunity for this role, I promise you\u0026rsquo;ll never regret the decision.\u0026rdquo; You can\u0026rsquo;t change a real concern, but you can return to your strengths. That\u0026rsquo;s the fourth skill in becoming a grandmaster.\nThe fifth and final skill is to understand the next step before you finish an interview. We take people through how to do that professionally. I also want your audience to know this: if you\u0026rsquo;re taking the time to interview, you have one goal and one goal only, James—to get the offer. Whether you accept it is your decision, but go into an interview saying, \u0026ldquo;This is my goal.\n\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do everything in my ability to get this offer.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s perfectly okay to turn something down, but I want you, not the company, to be in the driver\u0026rsquo;s seat.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s also a way to follow up professionally, and that\u0026rsquo;s all in the book as well.\nJames: Thanks so much for that. For people listening, getting a copy of the book would be a really good move, because they can explore these topics in much more detail. I have another question for you, Gene.\nWhat parts of the book are underappreciated? # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about the book a lot, and lots of people have read it now. Are there any parts you think are underappreciated, that people don\u0026rsquo;t speak about enough or that you wish people were more interested in?\nGene: The book offers 68 tips on creating a professional and personal life you can be proud of. When the agent was shopping the book, all the publishers wanted me to make the entire book about careers and job searches. That\u0026rsquo;s not the book I wanted to write.\nThe reason is that my 30 years in executive search taught me one thing: there\u0026rsquo;s no real professional success without personal success. The book\u0026rsquo;s first section is about life. It includes tips on life and understanding your foundation.\nIt explains what a linchpin is and the things you need to do every week to stay mentally and physically healthy. It covers the importance of gratitude and how to establish it. Then it goes into job searches and careers: after getting a job, how do you need to show up?\nThere\u0026rsquo;s no elevator to success, James. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to take the stairs, and we discuss what taking the stairs means. The fourth section is personal finance: how I went about creating great wealth and the simple things people can follow. It covers understanding the stock market, how I invested, what I did and the mistakes I made.\nThe last and hardest section was health and relationships. I\u0026rsquo;ll share a couple of things that might give you some insight into the book. The book had been out for one month when, two weeks ago, I received an email from a young lawyer in New York City.\nHe had just read my book and said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d just finished a 14-hour day and wanted to get a bite to eat, so I went into a restaurant by myself. I looked at the bar and saw an older man drinking by himself. I\u0026rsquo;d just read your book.\n\u0026ldquo;One chapter is called \u0026lsquo;Talk to the Oldest Person in the Room\u0026rsquo;. It discusses how much knowledge and information a young person can get from a senior person, and the questions needed to open up that conversation. I figured, what the heck? I\u0026rsquo;d finished dinner.\n\u0026ldquo;I went up, had a beer next to this guy and asked him some of your questions. Two and a half hours later, I\u0026rsquo;d had one of the best nights of my life. The gentleman was retired, but had been a senior writer on The Johnny Carson Show. Without reading that chapter in your book, I never would have taken it upon myself to sit next to him and ask those questions.\u0026rdquo;\nAnother young man from Seattle, Washington, read the book and sent me an email. The last section discusses marriage, the importance of marrying the right person and how your happiness or unhappiness can come from that decision. He was living with a young woman who was putting a lot of pressure on him to take the next step. He read the chapter and said it gave him what he needed to realise this wasn\u0026rsquo;t the person he wanted to spend the rest of his life with.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why I wrote the book. If someone can get one thing like that out of those 68 tips, I don\u0026rsquo;t care if anything else happens.\nThat, to me, is why I wrote it. My daughter Courtney loves teaching. She was in a public school for eight years, but it was a toxic work environment. She loved the classroom, but everyone was resigning from the department and the boss was a nightmare. After writing the book, she had what she needed to go out, interview and get a new job at a great private school that embraces her.\nShe is so happy. Those are some of the things we didn\u0026rsquo;t talk about that are in the book and can help people.\nGene\u0026rsquo;s advice for Graduates # James: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. It\u0026rsquo;s great to hear that it covers everything from careers to everything else you\u0026rsquo;d want to know as a young person, and it\u0026rsquo;s very generous of you to put it all in one place for people.\nGene, we\u0026rsquo;re coming to the end of the interview. I ask every guest this question: if you could rewind the clock and go back to when you\u0026rsquo;d just finished university and were going out into the world, knowing what you know now and all the advice you\u0026rsquo;ve written, what would you do differently? What advice would you give yourself in that situation?\nGene: It\u0026rsquo;s funny, James. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether I\u0026rsquo;ve shared this with you, but my career was very different. I started by owning rock-and-roll clubs in New York. I owned two clubs that booked only original music and had bands such as the Ramones, the Stray Cats, Joan Jett, Bo Diddley and Richie Havens.\nI left that business because the first club was extremely successful, the second was a failure, and my wife would marry me only if I got out of that business. I then went into corporate America and worked for a division of Alcatel, a French company and an international Fortune 100 firm.\nIn seven years, I was promoted five times. I went from sales representative to sales manager, general manager and district manager. My last job was heading all East Coast operations, with over a thousand people reporting to me. I left that job, even though I was making a heck of a lot of money, for one reason.\nI was never home at night. I travelled a great deal, we had a young family and I wanted some work–life balance. I went into executive search because I\u0026rsquo;d used search firms myself. I knew I could bring some value to it, but I never knew what I would find. I did it because I could be home at night.\nIt became extremely successful very quickly. What I would do differently relates to the purpose I found in executive search. Even when my firm became one of the largest retained search firms in the world, I never stopped leading searches because I found purpose in talking to executives and clients and putting a good match together.\nHalf the people I placed in C-level jobs had to pick up their families and move from one city to another for the role. I felt that, if I was going to move this person\u0026rsquo;s family, I had to make sure it was a good match.\nI found purpose in that. I had passion and was excited. I woke up in the morning and couldn\u0026rsquo;t wait to go to work. If I could go back, I think I would try to identify that passion and purpose early on and be a little more strategic in looking for it.\nI was very lucky and fortunate; many other people are not. The other thing is that every financial reward I receive from this book will be donated directly to the charity my wife and I started, the Plant a Seed Inspire a Dream Foundation, to help more children pursue their passions.\nI\u0026rsquo;m a big believer in pursuing your passions and finding purpose in your life. If you can find that and make a career by working out how to pursue those things, you\u0026rsquo;ll be healthier, happier and smile more. That\u0026rsquo;s the message I want to leave your audience with.\nJames: Thanks so much for sharing that with us, Gene, and for sharing your personal journey. It\u0026rsquo;s really interesting to hear how you\u0026rsquo;ve got to where you are. Following this episode, where can people find out more about you and the book?\nGene: First, go to LinkedIn and search for Gene Rice—G-E-N-E, R-I-C-E—of Rice Cohen International. You can leave me a message, and I\u0026rsquo;ll respond. We have a website for the book, gradtogrownup.com, where you can download some free chapters and send me an email. The book can be purchased anywhere, including Amazon.\nIt has received lots of reviews so far, and the feedback has been really positive. I feel really good about that. It\u0026rsquo;s available at Walmart, Target—anywhere.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 31\n","date":"23 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/31-gene-rice/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 31\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Gene Rice | On The Journey from Grad to Grown-up","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":"← Back to episode 30\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nYaniv: Say I make my whole team 20% more impactful and productive. We go from 500 impact points to 600. That\u0026rsquo;s how I get my 100 impact points as a manager.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is the founder and COO of his startup, Circular. He has over 10 years of work experience at Google and was recently VP of Engineering and COO at Airtasker. He\u0026rsquo;s also the co-host of his own podcast, The Startup Podcast. Please welcome Yaniv Bernstein.\nYaniv: Thanks for having me.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on today, mate. You\u0026rsquo;ve had some really cool experiences throughout your career, held some great positions and interacted with some really interesting people. I\u0026rsquo;d love to wind back the clock a little bit and start by talking about the early days of your career.\nIn particular, as we discussed just before, there are some parallels between today and when you started your career. At the moment, markets are on a downward trend, particularly over the last couple of weeks. You were saying that\u0026rsquo;s similar to when you finished university. I\u0026rsquo;d love to talk about your experience looking for jobs at that stage, weighing up your opportunities and what it was like going through that period when you finished uni.\nYaniv as a Uni Student # Yaniv: I did my undergraduate computer science degree and finished studying at the end of 2001. That was when the initial dot-com bubble had burst, around 2000–01. It was called the tech wreck or the dot-bomb: the Nasdaq was way off its highs, and a whole lot of startups cratered or laid people off.\nGenerally, the economy for software development had really taken a turn for the worse. One of the things that happens in those situations is that graduate programs tend to be among the first things to go. One thing that was different from today was that there was a lot less information available in terms of early-career groups, podcasts like this and so on.\nI think I was your typical clueless university student. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t really thought about how to take my career into my own hands, so I applied for a few standard graduate programs. I don\u0026rsquo;t think I interviewed very well back then either. Through a combination of those factors—I had good grades but didn\u0026rsquo;t interview that well and, most significantly, graduate programs were massively tightened up—I didn\u0026rsquo;t get any job offers.\nAt the same time, I became aware that I could do an honours program. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t been that thoughtful about it, but with the lack of job opportunities, I felt I might as well do honours, which I did. I found myself enjoying that and enjoying research a lot more than I expected to. Of course, honours only takes one year, and the job market hadn\u0026rsquo;t massively improved in that year anyway. When that ended, I decided to do a PhD in computer science. I really enjoyed it; it was actually a nice time in my life.\nIt also gave me the credentials and allowed the market to recover to the point where I was able to go straight from that into a job at Google, which, for a variety of reasons, I don\u0026rsquo;t think would have been open to me straight out of undergrad. Coming into the workforce, or graduating from uni, when the job market was tough set my career on the course it\u0026rsquo;s been on.\nI suspect that if I\u0026rsquo;d got into a graduate program at a managed services company, I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have had as interesting a career. I\u0026rsquo;m grateful, in a sense, for what felt like a bit of misfortune at the time. Of course, it\u0026rsquo;s very hard to predict the future, but the markets are incredibly choppy right now. Tech company layoffs are in the news for the first time since, at the latest, 2008. People might be feeling a little nervous, so it\u0026rsquo;s worth understanding that, when you look at things over a longer arc, it\u0026rsquo;s very hard to predict which setbacks and opportunities actually end up working out.\nJames: I like what you said: it\u0026rsquo;s hard to know in the moment but easy to know looking backwards, when it all makes sense. Perhaps doing a PhD is partly contextual to the market and job market when you\u0026rsquo;re graduating, but is it something you\u0026rsquo;re glad you did and would perhaps do again if you were a young person today?\nDoing a PhD in 2022 # Yaniv: It depends on your motivation. I would suggest that you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t do a PhD to get a leg up in the job market unless you have very specific career goals that involve either, obviously, an academic career or becoming a highly specialised data scientist or AI person, where having that deeper research credential can really get you ahead.\nWhat I found when I did my PhD was that I enjoyed it. If you really enjoy sinking your teeth into a problem, it\u0026rsquo;s actually quite a nice halfway house, or transition, between university and work. You\u0026rsquo;re expected to do things much more on your own. You\u0026rsquo;re sitting in a lab—which, when you\u0026rsquo;re doing computer science, is basically just an office—you meet your supervisor once a week or once every two or three weeks, depending on who you\u0026rsquo;ve got, and the rest is up to you.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a lot like a job, except with less money but also less pressure. In some ways, people put a lot of pressure on themselves during a PhD, and there\u0026rsquo;s certainly a lot of work to it, but I found it was a really enjoyable time in my life. I made good friends and connections there, a number of whom I\u0026rsquo;m still in touch with. But if you want a more general career and don\u0026rsquo;t think you\u0026rsquo;ll enjoy doing the PhD for its own sake, I find that people who go in without that sense of enjoyment and curiosity have a really miserable time and don\u0026rsquo;t get the benefit of it.\nYaniv after his PhD # James: I totally see that. Let\u0026rsquo;s talk about when you finished your PhD and were on the job market looking for things to do. Did you consider continuing down the academic path?\nYaniv: I think I knew I was done then. I\u0026rsquo;d reached certain conclusions. My research was broadly in the area of information retrieval, or search. By the time I finished, in 2006, Google was already a pretty large and significant company that had IPO\u0026rsquo;d in 2004.\nWhat I saw during my research was that the best research was being done in those private companies anyway. The big challenge that the academic sphere faced—and I think this has only got worse in a lot of disciplines—was that, to do good research, you needed access to high-quality data, and the high-quality data had become proprietary. If you\u0026rsquo;re doing research on search engines and the best algorithms require access to click data, high-quality crawls of the web and all sorts of other things, Google had all that stuff and wasn\u0026rsquo;t sharing it.\nIn academia, we were forced to do research on somewhat artificial problems. I felt it was starting to become a little meaningless. In a way, doing research in search engines just as Google was becoming this absolute beast made it seem like an obvious place to go. I didn\u0026rsquo;t put too much thought into what to do next. It felt like somewhere I could continue the spirit of some of the work I was doing, but at a place where I could have meaningful real-world impact. That\u0026rsquo;s pretty much how it worked out.\nJames: When you started at Google, did you go straight overseas to work in Switzerland?\nYaniv: It was that fairly typical Aussie thing where, before you get too many attachments and commitments, you feel it might be fun to live overseas for a few years. If I had been making the decision purely on a career basis, the obvious thing would probably have been to go to San Francisco and work at headquarters. But living in Switzerland, in the centre of Europe, felt like it would be more fun. I applied directly for the job in Zurich based on wanting to live in that part of the world.\nI had applied for the job while I was finishing my thesis, but I took three months off. I travelled—not exactly overland, but on a long, slow trip—from Australia to Switzerland through China, Central Asia and South Asia, which was a lot of fun.\nDid working overseas provide you with more breadth? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s so good. It\u0026rsquo;s a good place to be able to travel around and almost do that classic Australian-European experience, but you\u0026rsquo;re there for longer and get to see more. Lots of people highlight their international experiences when they come back and say they\u0026rsquo;re able to look at problems in new and unique ways. Was that the case for you as well? Do you feel being overseas gave you more breadth when looking at different problems you\u0026rsquo;ve faced in your career?\nYaniv: I think there are two things, or maybe two and a half. One is the international experience itself, where you get to see how people live somewhere else. It helps you triangulate a bit. When you\u0026rsquo;ve got two data points—this is how we do things in Australia, and this is how they do things in Switzerland—it challenges your assumption that there\u0026rsquo;s only one way of doing something. That\u0026rsquo;s certainly valuable.\nThe other half is that, in the workplace, you get exposed to many different cultures and ways of thinking. I only count that as a half because you often get very international workforces in Australia. But I got to spend a lot of time working with people from various European cultures and learning how to interact with them. It\u0026rsquo;s another string to your bow.\nThe other thing was less about working overseas as such and more about working at a company like Google. Especially in technology, there are many best practices—the most progressive ways of building technology and software products—that are not fully developed in Australia. Working at a company that really does things to that standard was very valuable.\nIf I may briefly plug my podcast, The Startup Podcast, our byline is that we\u0026rsquo;re about how to build a startup Silicon Valley style: how to work in the way places such as Google, Facebook and Airbnb really did things. Even though I was never actually in Silicon Valley, having worked for Google—whether in the US, Switzerland or even Australia—gave me a perspective I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have got if I\u0026rsquo;d worked for an Australian-based company.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a really good answer. Sometimes, whether you\u0026rsquo;re an organisation, a young person or anyone else in your career, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to know what a good version of something looks like. You can try things and see what works, but you can take whole new leaps forward by understanding, ‘This is the bleeding-edge way of doing things.’ I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool.\nYaniv: That\u0026rsquo;s right. People talk about standing on the shoulders of giants. If you want to be really good at your craft, it\u0026rsquo;s incredibly valuable to be exposed to people who are doing it the best in the world. Trying to bootstrap yourself and figure it all out on your own, or even just by reading, doesn\u0026rsquo;t give you the same impact and pace of learning.\nWhat does Google do well? # James: Google has been a big company for a while now, obviously for a reason. What do you think it does well, perhaps from an organisational perspective, that allows it to keep doing good work and making great products?\nYaniv: Two big things come to mind. One is a focus on technical excellence, and I don\u0026rsquo;t just mean software. Across the board, there\u0026rsquo;s an expectation that we\u0026rsquo;re bringing in people who are true experts at building and understanding large systems, and that we\u0026rsquo;re not going to meaningfully compromise on the quality of what we\u0026rsquo;re building. As an engineer, the strength of that engineering culture and the quality of the people brought in, whom I could learn from and alongside, was incredible.\nRelated to that, the second point is how loosely run Google was, which sounds strange. A lot of companies, especially older companies that predated the technology world, try to manage projects quite tightly. You\u0026rsquo;ve got things like strict roadmaps, lots of business analysts and mandated agile frameworks, perhaps something like SAFe. That really squeezes a lot of autonomy and agility out of teams, which is ironic. Many of these frameworks call themselves agile, but they constrain teams in how they operate.\nAt Google, we didn\u0026rsquo;t even really use Scrum. In particular, every team figured out for itself the right way it had to operate. That was a conversation within the team. The team had a high-level mandate and set some OKRs—objectives and key results—that it had to synchronise with leadership. But the team had a lot of autonomy in setting its own OKRs relative to its mission and mandate. That gave it the ability to focus on building really significant software and solving big problems.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s worth noting that Google was, and remains, in the luxurious position of having a lot of cash, which makes life easier. It causes problems as well, but, especially in the early days, Google made intelligent use of that cash by reinvesting it in the business. Companies in Australia are often very focused on the bottom line rather than the top line—making a profit, which is great—but that means they don\u0026rsquo;t invest as heavily as they could in building great technology.\nIf you view it over a long enough arc, you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t say Google\u0026rsquo;s spending billions of dollars on search technology, ad technology and Maps was anything other than a fantastic use of investors\u0026rsquo; money. Many of these things come from the top. As I\u0026rsquo;ve progressed in my career, I\u0026rsquo;ve appreciated more and more that the way we got to operate as individual engineering teams at Google was based on how people at the very top of the company thought about things that seemed quite distant to me at the time, such as capital allocation, product and accountability in the company.\nWhat things should a young person look for in a company? # James: That was really interesting. Google does heaps of things well. If you were a young person looking for a job now, what would you look for in an organisation, whether that\u0026rsquo;s talented employees or a good structure? Is there anything you would highlight?\nYaniv: Talented employees are a given. Good people like working with good people, so that\u0026rsquo;s definitely a big one. In terms of company structure and culture, I would say there are two things to look out for, depending on the type of company.\nIf it\u0026rsquo;s an older company—say you\u0026rsquo;re looking to join an insurance company, or somewhere that\u0026rsquo;s been around for a while and predates tech, for want of a better term—it might be undergoing a digital transformation, or whatever it calls it internally. You want to look at the degree to which the company is genuinely committed to that, because it\u0026rsquo;s a profound change that needs to come from the top. In my view, you can\u0026rsquo;t incrementally undergo a digital transformation, because it\u0026rsquo;s not actually a technology transformation. It\u0026rsquo;s a cultural transformation embodied in technology. You need to start doing everything differently. You want to see whether the company really has the appetite and courage to go through that. That\u0026rsquo;s one side: an older, larger, established company.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re looking to join a newer company—a scale-up, perhaps founded seven, eight or nine years ago that now has a few hundred employees—you\u0026rsquo;re looking for nearly the opposite problem: has it done what it takes to mature? A lot of companies have what I call Peter Pan syndrome, where they don\u0026rsquo;t want to grow up. This was actually one of the downsides I felt at Google; we\u0026rsquo;ve talked about the upsides. They say, ‘It was really fun when we were a startup, with a bunch of people in a room eating pizza and drinking beer. It was great.’ Suddenly, you\u0026rsquo;re 200 people and still trying to run the company in the same way.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re not careful, you get a lot of the worst things about being at a larger organisation without the benefits. If you hear a bigger company saying, ‘We\u0026rsquo;re still like a startup,’ that\u0026rsquo;s a yellow flag to me. You want to dig a little deeper, because it\u0026rsquo;s like a 40-year-old saying, ‘I\u0026rsquo;m still like a teenager.’ Are you not just embarrassing yourself at that point?\nYou want to understand whether the company has kept the spirit of innovation and agility of a startup, but layered in structures that allow it to execute effectively at scale. Otherwise, it becomes what I think is technically called a shitshow. It might seem great that there\u0026rsquo;s no guidance and no accountability, but you end up with a lot of destructive interference, where everyone goes in a different direction. What that feels like is, one, no career progression and, two, not feeling like you\u0026rsquo;re making progress. There\u0026rsquo;s a lot of activity, but not a lot of progress.\nThose are the things I\u0026rsquo;d look out for. Coming at it from opposite directions, does the organisation have the blend of maturity and agility that allows it to be a place where you can really grow in your career and have an impact on the world?\nWhat does Yaniv try and do for his company\u0026rsquo;s culture # James: Those are useful tips for people hunting for a job at the moment. You have your own company now and are trying to put some of these best practices in place early. As you\u0026rsquo;re building the company, are there any cornerstones you\u0026rsquo;re particularly focused on in creating a good culture and a foundation on which to build the company in the right way?\nYaniv: I think it\u0026rsquo;s about values and alignment. The first part is having shared values. It\u0026rsquo;s easy to be cynical about this: many companies have a set of company values, make a nice poster, stick it on a wall and have everyone walk past and ignore it.\nBut if you have values, and what we at Circular also call virtues—concrete behaviours aligned with our values, which say, ‘This is how we behave at this company’—you can create a strong culture from the beginning. For example, one of our virtues is ‘ask why a lot’. We\u0026rsquo;re encouraging people to question things. If we\u0026rsquo;re explicit about that, talk about it, lead by example, and encourage and reward those behaviours, then we\u0026rsquo;re creating that strong culture.\nWhy does culture get spoken about so much? It\u0026rsquo;s because it\u0026rsquo;s a highly scalable force. By ‘highly scalable’, I mean that as an organisation grows, its culture travels along with that growth because culture is imposed—or, rather, transferred—peer to peer. If you have a strong culture, it\u0026rsquo;s not a few people in management or leadership trying to get people to do things a certain way. You join a company and absorb the culture from the people around you. If you have a good culture as you grow, it\u0026rsquo;s one of the most scalable ways to ensure your organisation still functions well.\nThe other thing, which is very much a double-edged sword, is that a culture has what I call an immune system. Whatever culture you have is really hard to change; it resists change. If you have a good culture, it will resist change. If you have a bad culture, it will also resist change. Trying to change a culture that has already deeply established itself in an organisation is extremely difficult. It\u0026rsquo;s possible, but only in a very painful and expensive way. Setting the culture correctly from the beginning is extremely high leverage, so that\u0026rsquo;s something I try to do.\nAlongside that is alignment. This relates to those companies that don\u0026rsquo;t grow up. Early on, when you can get everyone in a room or Zoom call easily and everyone knows each other well, you can have stand-ups or syncs and stay aligned that way. But when you start hiring many people and might have a few layers of management, it\u0026rsquo;s surprisingly easy for different parts of the company to have different ideas about what\u0026rsquo;s important, the right way of doing things or the organisation\u0026rsquo;s priorities. That\u0026rsquo;s when you start pulling in different directions.\nAt Circular, perhaps earlier than at many other companies, we\u0026rsquo;ve made an effort to build scaled rituals for sharing alignment and context. Even when there were only 10 of us, we had a weekly all-hands meeting where we\u0026rsquo;d go through all the company numbers and our top priorities, take questions and so on. With 10 people, is it overkill to do that weekly? Maybe. But now we\u0026rsquo;re 20 people, and it has scaled effortlessly. If we get to 100 people, we\u0026rsquo;ll still be able to share context and alignment that way.\nThose are the sorts of things I think about. Ultimately, it\u0026rsquo;s why I ended up co-founding a startup: I see that so many of these are foundational things that need to be laid down at the beginning. Coming in later, you have much less ability to influence change. That\u0026rsquo;s true as a leader, but also as an employee.\nIf you look at my career, I\u0026rsquo;ve gone backwards from very big companies like Google, through scale-ups like Airtasker, and now to my own startup. There are many different ways to construct a career. I didn\u0026rsquo;t plan it this way, but I\u0026rsquo;m quite happy with how that sequencing has worked out. It gives you the context to see how things are done well at a larger scale. Then you go backwards into an earlier stage and know a little about what comes next and what you can bring to an earlier-stage company. If you go straight into a startup, as many people I admire do—and can do an incredible job—in a way it\u0026rsquo;s harder because you don\u0026rsquo;t have anything to measure things by. You\u0026rsquo;re thrown into the chaos and need to figure it out.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s really cool how you\u0026rsquo;ve done that. Having that variety of experiences and knowing great ways to do things helps a lot when you\u0026rsquo;re going into somewhere like a startup. If you\u0026rsquo;re trying to work things out from the ground up in that startup situation, things can get tricky.\nDifferences between producing and managing # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love to talk about your experience at Airtasker. You started there as VP of Engineering, having perhaps been a team lead or senior engineer. What were the biggest differences between being an engineer and being a vice president, where you\u0026rsquo;re a little more detached from the actual engineering and managing people more than the specific technology?\nYaniv: When I left Google, I was already managing teams, but the real difference in going from Google to Airtasker was going from being a culture recipient to being a culture maker. As I said, Google had a very strong engineering culture and was also a massive company. I was a very small cog in that big, amazing machine. As a leader there, your job was to understand how things were done and apply them to your team\u0026rsquo;s specific context: the people, teams and missions. That was really interesting.\nBut after a while, I started to get my own ideas—which is always dangerous—about how things should be done. That became an itch I needed to scratch. When I came to Airtasker, it was a scale-up that needed to mature its engineering culture so its practices and ways of doing things matched the stage it had reached as a company.\nIt was my job to take some of the things I\u0026rsquo;d learnt at Google and not recreate them at Airtasker, because every company and every scale is different, but to take what I\u0026rsquo;d learnt and apply those lessons in thinking about the best way for Airtasker\u0026rsquo;s engineering to mature. I found that both difficult and rewarding. If you get the right team around you, that\u0026rsquo;s really exciting.\nBut I think you were asking a slightly different question: about the transition from being hands-on with the tools as a senior engineer to more of a management and leadership position. That really comes down to changing the way you have impact. One model I\u0026rsquo;ve heard for thinking about this, which I like, is that you change from being additive to being multiplicative.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re an individual contributor, you can say, ‘The way I achieve a set level of impact—say, 100 impact points—is by doing 100 impact points’ worth of work myself.’ You can build a whole career as an individual contributor. Now that we\u0026rsquo;re going there, you asked me what made Google special. It was one of the first companies to build a proper individual contributor career track, so you could become extremely senior without moving into management, which was really important. You could keep growing the impact points you added and not hit a glass ceiling in your career. For example, if Google didn\u0026rsquo;t actually come up with terms like principal engineer and distinguished engineer, I think it was one of the first companies to implement them as a core part of its career pathway. That\u0026rsquo;s an aside.\nWhen you move into management, you become a multiplier. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you\u0026rsquo;re managing a team of five people. You don\u0026rsquo;t get to do much adding. Instead, you say, ‘We have five people, each producing 100 impact points. If I, as a manager, can make the right moves—leading, coaching, aligning, removing obstacles or whatever it is—I can have a multiplier effect across those 500 impact points.’ Say I make my whole team 20% more impactful and productive. We go from 500 impact points to 600. That\u0026rsquo;s how I get my 100 impact points as a manager.\nThat makes it clear why, in many cases, management is the career pathway with the greatest impact: as you grow in your career, you can apply your multiplier over a larger and larger number of people. If you\u0026rsquo;re responsible for a group of 100 people and make them all 10% better, that\u0026rsquo;s a huge amount of leverage. That\u0026rsquo;s why senior leaders tend to be sought after and well rewarded. But it is quite a mindset shift. It\u0026rsquo;s harder to feel productive when what you\u0026rsquo;re doing is one level removed—when you\u0026rsquo;re working to make other people more productive and getting a share of the credit for that—rather than being productive yourself.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a fantastic analogy. It makes a lot of sense. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to see the individual contributor path you mentioned starting to get into workplaces and become a genuinely viable path.\nIncreasing your impact as a junior engineer # James: There\u0026rsquo;s a lot of value in specialising and being a proper expert in what you do. I want to ask about someone who\u0026rsquo;s a junior engineer, or just starting work. In an engineering context, we spoke about those 100 impact points. What would you recommend to a junior who wants to have as many impact points as possible? Are there any principles they should follow?\nYaniv: The biggest one I can think of is to really try to understand the business and product you\u0026rsquo;re working on. Coming in as an engineer, it can be very easy to see your job as writing code and shipping features. I fell into this trap completely, but that\u0026rsquo;s not your job. I use the term ‘impact points’ deliberately because I don\u0026rsquo;t care how much work you do; it\u0026rsquo;s how much impact you have that matters.\nIf you want to have those impact points, you need to understand what\u0026rsquo;s important to your customers, users or stakeholders, then ultimately to the company and the business. If you\u0026rsquo;re working in government or a non-profit, understand that organisation\u0026rsquo;s ultimate goals. Become a student of that, because no matter what role you\u0026rsquo;re in, you\u0026rsquo;ll be able to make better decisions, prioritise your time better and ask more intelligent questions if you can see the big picture and understand why your employer is asking you to do things, rather than simply doing what you\u0026rsquo;re told.\nEngineering is a technical role, and there\u0026rsquo;s so much to learn about building software that there\u0026rsquo;s often a big missed opportunity. As a manager, I can tell you that, in the vast majority of cases, the most valuable engineers are the ones with so-called soft skills in communication, product understanding and commercial understanding who can combine those with strong technical skills to have the maximum impact on the product.\nJames: Understanding why isn\u0026rsquo;t super hard, but it can have a large impact on what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, just by giving you the context of where your role fits within the organisation.\nYaniv: This may not be possible in every organisation, though hopefully it is if you\u0026rsquo;ve got a good manager. I\u0026rsquo;ve nearly set myself a principle—and, talking about the values and virtues I\u0026rsquo;m putting into Circular, I\u0026rsquo;m trying to create this for everyone—that you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t start doing a piece of work until you understand why that piece of work is worth doing.\nThe model in which you\u0026rsquo;re just a pair of hands renting out your time is outdated in most organisations. It\u0026rsquo;s not that you\u0026rsquo;re trading your time for money; you\u0026rsquo;re trading your ability to deliver value for money. In a sense, you need to take responsibility for making sure your time is used effectively and you\u0026rsquo;re not wasting it.\nUnderstanding your manager\u0026rsquo;s or leadership\u0026rsquo;s motivations for asking you to do a certain piece of work often gives you an opportunity to be more effective. At the same time, it doubles as a great way of learning: you start to see how you fit into a bigger picture. It\u0026rsquo;s a good principle to understand why you\u0026rsquo;re doing something before you start, and to be as insistent as is politically viable at your organisation about gaining that understanding.\nWho does Yaniv look up to # James: Who inspires you or sets a good example for you? Is there anyone you aspire to be more like?\nYaniv: From a company leadership point of view, I really like Reed Hastings from Netflix. He wrote a book last year, I think, called No Rules Rules. His head of people wrote a similar book called Powerful a couple of years before that. Both were based, in a sense, on Netflix\u0026rsquo;s famous culture deck, which they\u0026rsquo;ve been building on for years.\nI think Netflix is the best embodiment of this model. They call it leading with context, not control: hiring great people and being somewhat ruthless in your expectations of them. This is a professional sports team, not a family. That\u0026rsquo;s something I really believe in within the workplace. Families are great, but they\u0026rsquo;re a different kettle of fish. Families don\u0026rsquo;t have a mission; they just are. It\u0026rsquo;s not the right model.\nThe third thing is leading with context, not control, which comes down to what I\u0026rsquo;ve just been saying. You don\u0026rsquo;t tell people what to do so much as tell them what needs to be achieved. You expect them to figure out the best way to achieve those things because you\u0026rsquo;ve given them enough business and product context that they know everything you do as a senior leader and can apply it to the specific problem they and their team have been charged with solving.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a very interesting combination. They call it freedom and responsibility, so they have nice slogans for all these things. You give people a huge amount of freedom and the context to exercise that freedom wisely, but you also give them a very heavy responsibility to deliver massive value with that freedom and context. If executed well, that\u0026rsquo;s the type of company and organisation I\u0026rsquo;d like to work for and be part of building.\nJames: I hope Circular can grow, have those kinds of values, support people and create an environment in which they have the freedom to make a great impact.\nYaniv\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, which I ask all the guests on the show. If you could rewind the clock to when you were first starting work, knowing what you know now, is there any advice you\u0026rsquo;d give yourself or anything you\u0026rsquo;d do differently?\nYaniv: I think I\u0026rsquo;d back myself more and be more entrepreneurial. I suspect there\u0026rsquo;s a generational element to this. A couple of generations back, there was a lifetime-employment model. My generation had much more mobility in people\u0026rsquo;s careers, but they still tended to follow a path of full-time jobs from one to another. Now I\u0026rsquo;m seeing the kinds of communities you\u0026rsquo;re serving, where people are really trying to be the architects of their own careers.\nWhen I say entrepreneurialism, some of the time that means starting your own business. It might mean starting a side hustle or podcast, or building a personal brand. But it also means taking more active control of your career and not being as passive as saying, ‘I\u0026rsquo;ve got my job now. I need to work towards my next promotion,’ or whatnot. It\u0026rsquo;s about being the architect of your own career and understanding, of course, that the future is very difficult to predict, but having a set of goals and principles you proactively set and then trying to design your career around them.\nI\u0026rsquo;m seeing much more of that with the current generation of graduates and early-career people. I\u0026rsquo;m in awe of that and a bit envious. I think, ‘If I\u0026rsquo;d been more intentional in designing my career, where could I have got to? Could I have got to where I am earlier?’ That\u0026rsquo;s the advice I\u0026rsquo;d give myself: be intentional in planning a career.\nThe tools available these days are incredible. They range from things like this podcast and communities like Earlywork to the vast number of resources online, the ability to start side hustles fairly easily and the availability of capital for early-stage startups. There\u0026rsquo;s a lot around now that didn\u0026rsquo;t used to exist. If I were starting now, I\u0026rsquo;d hope to make more use of it and be intentional and mindful in designing my career.\nConnect with Yaniv # James: There are certainly so many resources available today. It\u0026rsquo;s great to hear your thoughts about being more intentional because, with the things available, it\u0026rsquo;s something we can all strive to do more. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. To finish, where should people go to find out more about you and what you do?\nYaniv: I\u0026rsquo;m active on LinkedIn, so you can find me there. I\u0026rsquo;m also increasingly active on Twitter. My handle is @ybernstein, and I post different material suited to each platform.\nI also have a newsletter called People Engineering at newsletter.peopleeng.com, where I share my thoughts on building a scalable, high-performing organisation, which is part of what we\u0026rsquo;ve talked about.\nMore recently, I also have a podcast called The Startup Podcast, available in all your favourite podcast apps. It\u0026rsquo;s a collaboration with Chris Saad, who\u0026rsquo;s a well-known operator here in Australia. It\u0026rsquo;s nearly like a mini MBA, where we talk about what you need to know as someone working at a startup or as a startup founder.\nFinally, but by no means least, is my own startup, Circular. We\u0026rsquo;re live in Singapore and Australia, and we\u0026rsquo;re actively hiring in Australia for a variety of roles. Check us out at nowcircular.com/careers and have a look at what\u0026rsquo;s going on. We\u0026rsquo;re going into general availability in Australia shortly, so if you feel like checking out the product, please do.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve had a look at Circular. I think it\u0026rsquo;s super cool what you guys are building, and I\u0026rsquo;ll hopefully be on there when I need my next new device.\nYaniv: You can do that.\nJames: Thanks so much for your time today. Have a great week.\nYaniv: Thank you, James. It was a pleasure.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 30\n","date":"16 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/30-yaniv-bernstein/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 30\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: Yaniv Bernstein | On Engineering The Perfect Work Culture","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → The world of engineering is constantly changing.\nThis week, we chat to an experienced engineer about what it takes to succeed as an engineer and how to find great companies to work for.\nSubscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter to get emails like this, every week 👇\nSubscribe Now\nYaniv Bernstein is the founder and COO of his startup, Circular. He has 10 years of work experience at Google, and recently was VP of Engineering and COO at Airtasker. He is also the co-host of his own podcast, the startup podcast.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # What to look for in a company # Yaniv shared some great mental models to use when thinking about what is the right company to join.\nHe split this into both a larger business and an emerging one.\nHere are some things to consider\n1/ Larger Business: the degree to which the company is committed to tech / tech transformation\nCompanies these days are engaging in technology transformation, changing their older legacy systems into new systems using new technology.\nYaniv had this to say -\nAnd so you can\u0026rsquo;t really, in my view, kind of incrementally undergo a digital transformation because it it\u0026rsquo;s actually. It\u0026rsquo;s not a technology transformation, right? It\u0026rsquo;s actually a cultural transformation that is embodied in technology. Right. You need to start doing everything differently.\nWith this in mind, companies that are going about this digital transformation in the right way, fully committed, are those that you should hold in high regard.\n2/ Smaller company: Have they done what it takes to mature\nYaniv said that smaller companies can sometimes not actually mature. They may almost still wish to be a startup when they are no longer.\nthat\u0026rsquo;s sort of like, you know, a 40 year old saying I\u0026rsquo;m still like a teenager. It\u0026rsquo;s like, well, you know, are you not just embarrassing yourselves at that point? You know, you want to understand, like how\u0026rsquo;s, the company kept that spirit of innovation and agility of a startup, but actually lay it in the structures that allows them to effectively execute that scale.\nBeing an established company doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean that you need to forgo fast change and innovation. It does mean though that you should have established process for things and accept the reality of where the company is.\nWhen thinking about joining one of these types of companies, investigate further if the company isn\u0026rsquo;t a startup but is still awkwardly trying to be.\nFrom an individual contributor to a manager # I spoke to Yaniv about the main differences between being an engineer and a manager.\nHe said that the main difference is that you go from being additive to multiplicative.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re managing a team of five people let\u0026rsquo;s say, uh, and you don\u0026rsquo;t get to do a whole lot of adding, right? What you do is instead say, okay, if we have five people and they\u0026rsquo;re each producing 100 impact points, and I, as a manager can make the right moves, which means in terms of, you know, leading coaching, removing obstacles, whatever it is that I can have a multiplier effect across those 500 impact points. Right? So you say, I make my whole team 20% more impactful and more productive. So we go from 500 impact points to 600. Well, that\u0026rsquo;s how I get my 100 impact points as a manager\nIt\u0026rsquo;s interesting to think about a definitely a change in skillset from someone that is doing engineering to someone that is trying to unblock others.\nSucceeding as a Graduate # Yaniv has mentored and employed many young people in his time. He has the keys to what makes a successful graduate.\nHe says that in order to have a big impact, understanding the why is really important. Having big impact at your workplace doesn’t come from doing the most but from doing what matters.\nUnderstanding why also ties in with soft skills. As engineers like Yaniv, look to improve your soft skills to provide the most impact.\nI can tell you the most valuable engineers are in a vast majority of cases, the ones who have these so-called soft skills around communication, product, understanding commercial understanding, and are able to combine that with strong technical skills to have the maximum impact on the product.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Yaniv # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ybernstein/\nTwitter - https://twitter.com/ybernstein\nCircular - https://nowcircular.com.au/\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Yaniv Bernstein\n00:16 Intro\n01:30 Yaniv as a Uni Student\n05:16 Doing a PhD in 2022\n06:53 Yaniv after his PhD\n10:03 Did working overseas provide you with more breadth?\n13:53 What does Google do well?\n18:06 What things should a young person look for in a company?\n22:13 What does Yaniv try and do for his company\u0026rsquo;s culture\n28:18 Differences between producing and managing\n34:14 Increasing your impact as a junior engineer\n38:37 Who does Yaniv look up to\n41:30 Yaniv\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n44:20 Connect with Yaniv\n46:25 Outro\n","date":"16 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/30-yaniv-bernstein/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → The world of engineering is constantly changing.\nThis week, we chat to an experienced engineer about what it takes to succeed as an engineer and how to find great companies to work for.\n","title":"Yaniv Bernstein | On Engineering The Perfect Work Culture","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → It\u0026rsquo;s time to tackle an important topic.\nFinance.\nIn this week\u0026rsquo;s episode of Graduate Theory, we uncover how to take the first steps to become financially free.\nGet the newsletter, every week 👇\nSubscribe Now\nLacey Filipich graduated as valedictorian in chemical engineering before starting work in the mines. Since then, she’s accomplished many things including becoming financially free, giving a TEDx talk, writing a book called “Money School” and founding a company by the same name.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # 3 Rules to Financial Independence # Lacey is financially free.\nShe said there are three things you need to do to get there.\nSave Buy Assets (Shares, Property) Avoid Bad Debt (Afterpay, expensive loans) Doing any of these things will get you closer to your goal, doing more will get you there faster.\nNegotiate Your Pay Often # Lacey negotiated her pay every 6 months.\nIn one case, she was promoted and her employer realised that she was already outside of the pay band for her new role.\nSound interesting?\nShe says that one of the things she did was to negotiate her pay every six months.\nBut I think when you\u0026rsquo;re in a role, so you\u0026rsquo;re in your job and you\u0026rsquo;ve got the same boss or whatever the point is, why would they pay you more? Because you\u0026rsquo;re adding more value and they either don\u0026rsquo;t want to lose you, or they want to share profits with you.\nThe steps to negotiating successfully?\nbe a productive and valuable employee keep a record of the things you have achieved ask for a raise, and cite your achievements If you don\u0026rsquo;t get a raise, ask why and take notes to improve (or leave) If you do get a raise, congratulations! Pick your boss wisely # Lacey left us with a final piece of great advice.\nThere is no one who will have a bigger impact on how happy you are at work than your boss, the end. 80% of your satisfaction at work, I reckon comes from whether you have a good boss or an outside good boss\nPick your boss wisely. Perhaps even more than enjoying what you do is enjoying the company of those around you and those in charge of you.\nPicking a good boss will both save you from misery and set you up for success.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Lacey # Money School - https://www.moneyschool.net.au/\nLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/laceyjfilipich/\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Lacey Filipich\n00:23 Intro\n00:55 The Start of Lacey\u0026rsquo;s Financial Journey\n02:02 Lacey and Financial Independence\n09:21 A Break from Work and Overseas Travel\n16:27 How did Lacey restructure her life?\n21:17 How to start your financial journey\n26:19 Learning to run her own business\n30:51 Saving More or Earning More\n39:56 Asking for Pay Rises\n50:01 Lacey\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n58:14 Connect with Lacey\n59:01 Outro\n","date":"9 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/29-on-negotiating-your-financial-future-with-lacey-filipich/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → It’s time to tackle an important topic.\nFinance.\nIn this week’s episode of Graduate Theory, we uncover how to take the first steps to become financially free.\n","title":"On Negotiating Your Financial Future with Lacey Filipich","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 29\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nLacey: Even if you don\u0026rsquo;t get to that goal, even if you don\u0026rsquo;t reach the point where your assets are paying you enough to cover your living costs, you\u0026rsquo;re still going to be in a much better financial position than if you didn\u0026rsquo;t. Your life will be easier and less stressful.\nSo why wouldn\u0026rsquo;t you take the shot?\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is a financial educator, founder, speaker and chemical engineer. She graduated as valedictorian in chemical engineering before starting work in the mines. Since then, she\u0026rsquo;s accomplished many things, including becoming financially free, giving a TEDx talk, writing a book called Money School and founding a company by the same name. Please welcome to the show the financial guru, Lacey Filipich.\nLacey: Hi, James. Thanks for having me.\nThe Start of Lacey\u0026rsquo;s Financial Journey # James: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on the show, and I\u0026rsquo;m excited to talk about everything to do with finance and your own financial journey. Perhaps we can wind back the clock to the start of this journey. Was there a moment when you first started taking your finances a little more seriously and realising the potential that was there?\nLacey: I\u0026rsquo;m going to sound really strange right now and say it was when I was 10. That\u0026rsquo;s quite young, but that\u0026rsquo;s when I first learnt about compound interest. I learnt that money makes more money when it\u0026rsquo;s in the bank. My mum had told me it breeds like rabbits, and my eyes just lit up. From that moment, I started saving half of every dollar I\u0026rsquo;ve ever earned.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s nearly 30 years ago now, so that\u0026rsquo;ll date me. That\u0026rsquo;s a long time to be saving, but I put that as the start of when I became interested in money and realised that it could be wasted or used sensibly for a specific purpose. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Well, I\u0026rsquo;m going to spend half with impunity on what I want, and the other half I\u0026rsquo;m going to save and make the most of.\u0026rdquo;\nLacey and Financial Independence # James: It\u0026rsquo;s a pretty young age to be exposed to the idea of saving. With compound interest, it helps to get started early, and getting started that young is really cool. I want to ask more about it because you\u0026rsquo;ve been on this huge financial journey.\nWhen did you go from just saving to realising, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I can actually put my assets and savings to work and set up a life where perhaps I don\u0026rsquo;t have to work if I don\u0026rsquo;t want to\u0026rdquo;? What was that transition like?\nLacey: This is a really interesting point. Becoming financially independent is the goal a lot of people aim for. That\u0026rsquo;s where your assets might include properties that pay rent, shares that pay dividends, cash in the bank that pays interest or bonds that pay a coupon.\nAll those things are what make you financially independent: you make enough money from those assets that you don\u0026rsquo;t have to work anymore. I didn\u0026rsquo;t actually do anything that got me to financial independence while thinking about that goal, which sounds ridiculous, right? I just magically ended up there.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not quite the case. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t magic or an accident, but while I was doing it, I never had the objective of being able to choose not to work. That\u0026rsquo;s really important for people to understand. It\u0026rsquo;s great if you have that goal, but it\u0026rsquo;s not why I did it. I did it because I wanted to make the most of my money.\nI\u0026rsquo;m a chemical engineer, and engineers hate waste. Waste is our enemy. I just didn\u0026rsquo;t want to see any of that money get frittered away. Of course, I\u0026rsquo;d learnt about compound interest when I was young. I had money in the bank, and remember, this was back in the nineties, when interest rates on savings were hitting nine and 10%, compared with the couple of per cent you get right now.\nYou got really quick growth compared with what you get now. I\u0026rsquo;d seen that happening, and in my teens my mum had helped me put some of that money into a mutual fund, which got a better return than interest. I was aware that you could invest, but I hadn\u0026rsquo;t been very active. You just stick money in a mutual fund, it pays returns and they take a fee.\nWhen I was about 17, we went to a seminar given for free at our local pub. Usually, when you go to these seminars, they\u0026rsquo;re sales pitches, but somehow we were super lucky. My mum and I went to this seminar, and this guy was just talking about how to buy property.\nHis general principle, which has stuck with me to this day, was to buy quality, undervalued properties. That\u0026rsquo;s what you\u0026rsquo;re looking for: good quality and paying less than the market price. I was 17, so we started learning about that. My mum gave me the book Rich Dad Poor Dad, which I love. I\u0026rsquo;m not a massive Kiyosaki fan. He\u0026rsquo;s not my favourite person in the world, and I would not recommend you go out and follow his advice everywhere, but that book is really good. The principles in it and the way he explains the story, which apparently he made up, are a very effective way to learn. That had all happened as I was leaving school.\nWhen I was 19, I had quite a whack of savings. I was telling my mum that I was going to buy a nice car because all my friends—I don\u0026rsquo;t know if uni students are still the same; I\u0026rsquo;m assuming they are—drove terribly old, ugly, very cheap cars. That was pretty much the priority. If you spent more than $1,500 on a car, that was an expensive car.\nI was going to buy something flash. I said to my mum, \u0026ldquo;Hey, look, I\u0026rsquo;m going to buy a car,\u0026rdquo; and she said, \u0026ldquo;That could be a deposit on a property.\u0026rdquo; I went, \u0026ldquo;Oh my gosh.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s when I started thinking about everything I\u0026rsquo;d been learning over the previous couple of years: how property investing worked and how you use leverage. Leverage is debt, right? You\u0026rsquo;re borrowing money.\nIt was a pretty risky decision at 19 years old. Now I look back and go, \u0026ldquo;Wow, that was gutsy.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s one of those things you do when you\u0026rsquo;re naive that you might not do if you had too much information. I did it when I did, in 2001 in Brisbane, just before we had a property boom.\nI bought a little two-bedroom, one-bathroom apartment. It was hideous. So ugly. Oh my God. Brown everything: brown carpet, brown brick walls, brown ceiling. I cried when I got the keys, went inside and thought, \u0026ldquo;Wow, this is disgusting.\u0026rdquo; It was tiny too, 50 square metres.\nIt was the first property I bought, and I got in just before this boom. The property price doubled in two years. That timing was just luck. If I\u0026rsquo;d waited two years until I\u0026rsquo;d finished university and had a steady job, it would have been different. At the time, I was only working about 12 hours during the week and 30 to 40 hours a week during the uni holidays, but I was getting paid reasonably well.\nBack then, you got paid about $800 a week as a student engineer. That was pretty good 20 years ago. That was the decision I made, and it was the beginning. By the time I was 21, my property\u0026rsquo;s price had doubled, so my equity had doubled. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t taken out a very big mortgage, comparatively speaking, because I had a great big deposit, and I was paying the mortgage down. I was going, \u0026ldquo;Wow, so this is how it works.\u0026rdquo; That was the point when I realised I could do more with my money than leave it in the bank and earn interest.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a really cool story. I guess there was a little bit of luck involved, but it certainly shows the things you can do with your money. Especially at the moment—and perhaps when you were looking at this too—the interest rates at the bank aren\u0026rsquo;t the best. It\u0026rsquo;s important to look at other avenues and places to put your money so that you\u0026rsquo;re not just getting 0.005%, or whatever the interest rate is.\nLacey: It\u0026rsquo;s hard. I think interest rates are going to go up, but the awful thing is that you\u0026rsquo;ll never know what\u0026rsquo;s going to happen when you do something. I can only look back in retrospect and go, \u0026ldquo;Wow, my timing was great.\u0026rdquo; The market could have stayed low for another two years, and I might not have built that equity. It could have gone backwards, as property does. I was very lucky, but luck actually ends up being circumstance plus being prepared.\nIn many ways, you can\u0026rsquo;t control the circumstances. We can\u0026rsquo;t control the life we\u0026rsquo;re born into or our starting point. We can\u0026rsquo;t control what the economy will do or whether there\u0026rsquo;ll be a war or a pandemic. We can\u0026rsquo;t control all these things, but you can be prepared to grab an opportunity when it comes along.\nIf you wait until the opportunity is there and you\u0026rsquo;re not prepared, it\u0026rsquo;s much harder to get ready before the opportunity passes. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt in retrospect. The fact that I was prepared and able to buy at the time meant I could do it, and it was still a risky decision.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not necessarily something that every university student should consider doing. There\u0026rsquo;s certainly a lot of risk involved, but it paid off and I was lucky. Those two things together add up to getting ahead. It could have gone the other way, but it\u0026rsquo;s important to make sure you\u0026rsquo;re prepared. Maybe the opportunity won\u0026rsquo;t come along, and that\u0026rsquo;s okay.\nIf the opportunity does come along, though, you\u0026rsquo;re ready to jump on it. You don\u0026rsquo;t lose time learning all those new things so you can be ready, only for the opportunity to be gone. That\u0026rsquo;s probably what I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt from that.\nA Break from Work and Overseas Travel # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool, and it\u0026rsquo;s pretty good advice. You were working full-time for a while. I know you mentioned this in your TED talk: you were working for a bit and getting burnt out from working so much. Then you went on this big trip, trying to almost escape work for a little while. Talk to me about why you went, what you learnt, what you reflected on while you were away and how that affected you when you came back.\nLacey: I think everybody has a moment in their life when they realise they\u0026rsquo;re not invincible anymore. A lot of your listeners probably haven\u0026rsquo;t had that moment, and maybe they\u0026rsquo;re saying, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;ll never happen to me,\u0026rdquo; which is normal, by the way. It\u0026rsquo;s human nature to think it won\u0026rsquo;t happen to me.\nAt some point in your life, though, you\u0026rsquo;ll have this moment of crisis where you go, \u0026ldquo;Wow, I could die, I could get really sick or I don\u0026rsquo;t have complete control over my body\u0026rsquo;s response.\u0026rdquo; That happened to me in my twenties, which is quite young. A lot of people don\u0026rsquo;t have that moment until later in life. Some have it earlier or are confronted by it in their youth. For me, it came in my twenties because I had been working too hard, which sounds ridiculous, doesn\u0026rsquo;t it? I\u0026rsquo;m completely the opposite now, but at the time I was doing a really intense job.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s called change management, as a broad-brush term. My job was basically to go to mine sites and help them make more money without spending money. They had to produce more tonnes. It\u0026rsquo;s optimisation, business improvement and related work. When you\u0026rsquo;re dealing with a workforce that might have been there for 30 or 40 years, it takes almost a force of personality to convince them to change.\nThe big work is in sitting down with people and persuading them to do something differently after doing it the same way for 30 or 40 years. It\u0026rsquo;s hard and takes a long time. When I say a force of personality, you really do need it. You need charisma, persistence, and to be so annoying—which turns out to be something I\u0026rsquo;m very good at anyway.\nI had done really well in this role and was getting promoted. They decided to make me an internal consultant because, of course, you pay a lot of money for consultants to do that. The mining company I worked for wanted an in-house team, and I was the guinea pig.\nThey started sending me to different sites. The work at all these sites was really intense and full-on, and I didn\u0026rsquo;t have a holiday for about 18 months. About a year in, I told my boss, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really tired. I think I need to have a break.\u0026rdquo; My boss said, \u0026ldquo;Well, we\u0026rsquo;re doing this six-month turnaround. You can\u0026rsquo;t have a break now. Sorry, you\u0026rsquo;ve got to keep pushing through.\u0026rdquo; I knew I was feeling tired, but thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d better do it.\u0026rdquo; At this stage, I was still coming to terms with what it\u0026rsquo;s like being an employee in a big company and how, in some cases, the company\u0026rsquo;s needs come before yours.\nMy boss had a very good explanation. I know your listeners won\u0026rsquo;t be able to see this, but imagine two hands with their fingers interlaced: the employee\u0026rsquo;s needs and the boss\u0026rsquo;s needs, with the boss representing the company, have to go hand in hand. In this case, my needs couldn\u0026rsquo;t be met.\nAs a result, I got really sick. I spent five weeks in bed, which at 26 years old is quite shocking. I got a virus, so that was unavoidable. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t like I got chronic fatigue or anything, but the virus hit me for six because I was so run-down. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t been eating well or exercising. I was all work.\nThat made me think. After four weeks of lying in bed surrounded by tissues, I was wondering, \u0026ldquo;Am I ever getting out of bed again? Is my life ever going to be normal again?\u0026rdquo; That was enough for me to go, \u0026ldquo;Oh my gosh, I don\u0026rsquo;t really want to do this.\u0026rdquo;\nI did run away. I came back to work for a few weeks when I was better to tidy up and hand over, then went to South America for three months with my partner, who\u0026rsquo;s now my husband. That was my time to get better and recuperate. I spent a lot of time thinking, and during that trip I thought, \u0026ldquo;This is stupid. Why would I work myself to death? They\u0026rsquo;ll pay me a good wicket, but life\u0026rsquo;s too important for that.\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s where I started thinking that I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to slog my guts out. I was on what they call the high-performer program, and I was earmarked to be a vice-president within five to seven years. You want to hit these targets, and they motivate you mostly through money. I thought, \u0026ldquo;This is not worth it.\u0026rdquo; I looked at all the people who had reached general manager and vice-president level and thought, \u0026ldquo;This is about time served. They\u0026rsquo;re the last people standing; other people tapped out.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s about who can keep up, much more than capability. I sound very cynical, I know.\nLacey: But that\u0026rsquo;s what happened to me. Lots of people can do that well. They can be promoted or do high-stress work and manage their personal life. I\u0026rsquo;m just not like that. I\u0026rsquo;m a campaign worker. When I work, I work intensely and I\u0026rsquo;m very focused. Then I have to stop and take a break. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt about myself. I can do intense work for a period, but I have to allow recuperation time.\nMonday to Friday, 48 weeks a year, isn\u0026rsquo;t going to accommodate that, so I don\u0026rsquo;t suit working as an employee anymore. That was a big thing to realise in my twenties.\nJames: We had Mel on recently, and she had a similar story. She was working so much that everything fell down, and she had to put things back together. It\u0026rsquo;s important for people to realise that you have to pay attention to what\u0026rsquo;s going on. It\u0026rsquo;s fortunate, in some ways, that you got sick and were able to realise what was happening.\nLacey: The silver lining for every cloud, right?\nIt was pretty much, \u0026ldquo;Oh my gosh, my career plan to become CEO by the time I\u0026rsquo;m 40 just disappeared. I don\u0026rsquo;t do that anymore. What am I going to do?\u0026rdquo; It felt awful, but you\u0026rsquo;re right: it was pivotal, and it opened so many other options I hadn\u0026rsquo;t even considered.\nWhen I look back now, I think I could have been slogging my guts out and putting my kids in childcare from 6:00 am to 6:00 pm. What would be the point? Why bother having them if you\u0026rsquo;re going to do that? I know I sound very judgemental. There are people it works for who want to do that, but it\u0026rsquo;s not what I want.\nI want to be at home with the kids. I want to see them grow up and for them to know me. I want more satisfaction than just knowing that I helped some shareholders get an extra two or three cents on a dividend.\nHow did Lacey restructure her life? # James: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool and important. How did you approach that? You\u0026rsquo;d gone from working a lot to realising you wanted to change things. What did that look like? Did you change jobs at that point? How did you restructure things so you could live life the way you wanted to?\nLacey: This concept of mini-retirements was something important that people need to realise, and it changed everything for me. I read The 4-Hour Workweek. A friend heard me going, \u0026ldquo;Oh my gosh, life crisis. What do I do?\u0026rdquo; and said, \u0026ldquo;You need to read The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss.\u0026rdquo;\nThe whole premise of The 4-Hour Workweek is to design a business that you work on for four hours a week so you can live anywhere in the world. It becomes what he calls a muse: it\u0026rsquo;s just a cash flow for you. The idea is that, if you set the business up right, you can take chunks of three, six or 12 months off work. You do that when you\u0026rsquo;re young; you don\u0026rsquo;t wait until your sixties.\nAt the moment, we think of life as divided into three segments. There\u0026rsquo;s education when you\u0026rsquo;re young, work from your twenties to your sixties and then retirement, when you play golf, become a grey nomad, travel the world, look after the grandkids or do whatever your priority is when you finally stop working. That\u0026rsquo;s 40 years when you\u0026rsquo;ll get four weeks of leave a year and maybe long service leave if you hang around. Who does that anymore? You\u0026rsquo;re basically going to work for 40 years and, when you\u0026rsquo;re on holiday, you\u0026rsquo;re just trying to recover from work.\nHis idea was to have those breaks. Take the 10, 20, 30 or 40 years of retirement you might have, depending on your health and how long you live, break it into smaller chunks and take them in your youth.\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s me. That\u0026rsquo;s what I need to do. I need to work really hard for six months, then have six months off. I want to try that.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s what I decided to do. It took me a while to get to that point, by the way. After my holiday around South America, I returned to work for another year and a bit. It took me a while to decide that I really wanted to do this.\nWhen I did resign, I took six months off to work on a business idea because I was going to create this muse. If I\u0026rsquo;m honest, it was just recuperation for me, but it was a beginning. I wrote and self-published a children\u0026rsquo;s book called Bunny Money, which is about teaching kids about money, because I thought, \u0026ldquo;I really should work in this area.\u0026rdquo; We can talk later about how I ended up picking that.\nI spent the next three years working for six months over winter and taking six months off over summer. I did that by becoming a contractor instead of working as an employee. It turned out that the company that had trained me while I was an employee had a non-compete policy. They couldn\u0026rsquo;t make me a job offer while I was employed, but the day after I resigned they called and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, would you like to be a consultant for us?\u0026rdquo; There are opportunities out there that you\u0026rsquo;re not aware of, and I was able to take these six-month contracts.\nBecause the work was intense and contractors got paid a lot more, I made more than my annual salary in six months. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know that would happen, but it did, and my pay went up very quickly. I was eventually making a lot more than I would have if I\u0026rsquo;d stayed in the line, while working four days a week for only six months a year and then having six months off.\nI did that for three years. During those mini-retirement breaks, we would live near Margaret River, south of Perth. We\u0026rsquo;d have a great time, eat well, exercise, sleep in, throw the alarm clock away and do all those wonderful things. I would work on my idea for Money School, which came about because all my friends, who were slogging their guts out, were asking, \u0026ldquo;How come you don\u0026rsquo;t have to work full-time anymore, Lacey?\u0026rdquo;\nI said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve been buying properties and paying down the debt, investing in shares and earning dividends, and still saving 50% of everything I\u0026rsquo;ve earned.\u0026rdquo; Taking time off was nothing: I could have lived for five years on my savings alone, without the income. They asked, \u0026ldquo;How did you do that?\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;I started saving when I was 10 and investing when I was 19. What have you been doing?\u0026rdquo; Of course, they had credit cards they weren\u0026rsquo;t paying off and car loans, but really fancy cars. I was driving my crappy old car—it was still safe, but crappy—and I didn\u0026rsquo;t have to work.\nThey were saying, \u0026ldquo;This isn\u0026rsquo;t fair. How did you learn about that?\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s why I started working on Money School, to teach people about it. All that happened as I was starting to see quite a lot of wealth being developed, and I was still channelling my money into investing. That was the point when I thought, \u0026ldquo;Hey, there\u0026rsquo;s an alternative, and I want it.\u0026rdquo;\nHow to start your financial journey # James: That\u0026rsquo;s a really cool story. There are a lot of different things I want to touch on. First, let\u0026rsquo;s say someone is three years into their career. They\u0026rsquo;ve heard this and are thinking, \u0026ldquo;I really want to embark on this journey, take my financial life more seriously and grow my finances towards the FIRE movement. I want to be financially sustainable without necessarily having to work, or while working less, or whatever that might be.\u0026rdquo; What first steps should they take to go down that path?\nLacey: When I talk to people about becoming financially independent, there are only three rules: save, buy assets and avoid bad debt. That\u0026rsquo;s it. As long as you\u0026rsquo;re applying those rules, the percentages don\u0026rsquo;t really matter. How much you save depends on what you can afford and your personal circumstances. I could afford to save 50% of everything I earned. Other people can\u0026rsquo;t, and some can save more. If you want to get there really quickly, there are people who save over 90% of their income and live on 10%. The percentages are irrelevant; the principles are what matter.\nYou save, then take most of those savings while keeping some cash as a buffer for emergencies. Take the rest and buy assets, which are things that put money in your pocket. Don\u0026rsquo;t get sucked into bad debt. By bad debt, we\u0026rsquo;re talking about car loans, credit cards, buy now, pay later, pay advances and anything else where you\u0026rsquo;re taking money from future you, because future you has to pay it back, but you\u0026rsquo;re not buying an asset with it.\nAs long as you do those three things, you have a very good chance of reaching financial independence. It\u0026rsquo;s about how aggressively you do them. If you want to get there quickly, save and invest more. That means you might sacrifice some quality of life or something you want to do earlier on.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t want to make that sacrifice and can only save a little, it takes much longer, but you still get there. Even if you don\u0026rsquo;t reach the goal, where your assets pay enough to cover your living costs, you\u0026rsquo;ll still be in a much better financial position than if you didn\u0026rsquo;t try. Your life will be easier and less stressful. Why wouldn\u0026rsquo;t you take the shot?\nThink about how much you can save. If you can\u0026rsquo;t save anything right now, when will you be able to? Is it when you get your first job out of uni? Is it when you go from probation to permanent employment? Is it when you get a certain number of clients for your small business as a sole trader?\nOnce you get there, set it up so that you can\u0026rsquo;t stop saving. Make it automatic. Isolate your savings account and automate the transfers so they happen straight away. Get payroll to pay into that savings account. Don\u0026rsquo;t have it connected to any spending, then make sure you do something with those savings, and you\u0026rsquo;ll get there.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s my advice to everyone. If you can\u0026rsquo;t save right now, that\u0026rsquo;s normal for a student. It\u0026rsquo;s normal for students to be on the bones of their bum, struggling and eating baked beans or two-minute noodles. That\u0026rsquo;s fine, and it happens to everybody. I think about my mother, who was a single parent. There was a good decade when she couldn\u0026rsquo;t save anything because she was too busy making ends meet and trying to support two kids on about $30,000 a year. That\u0026rsquo;s okay. It happens to everybody.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not your fault or a problem. You just need to be ready. When you finally have extra money, save it; don\u0026rsquo;t spend it. Make sure you start, because the longer you wait, the longer it\u0026rsquo;ll take to get there.\nJames: I like what you said about eventually getting there if you save any amount. It\u0026rsquo;s about how much you want to save and how quickly you want to get to that point.\nLacey: It\u0026rsquo;s about speed. The people who get there fastest, often in under 10 years, usually save the most. My saving rate sounds high at 50%, but some people routinely save 70 to 80% of everything and live super-frugally. If that\u0026rsquo;s okay for you and how you want to live, go for it. It\u0026rsquo;s not my journey. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to give up nice holidays or nice food. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to, but if you\u0026rsquo;re dedicated and committed and that\u0026rsquo;s what you want, go ahead.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not a one-size-fits-all answer; it\u0026rsquo;s a choose-your-own-adventure answer. You just have to follow those three basic principles.\nLearning to run her own business # James: I also want to ask about starting your business with Money School. A fair bit goes into that. You have to learn how to market your product correctly, and how to write and produce all the content. There are heaps of different things involved. How did you get started on that journey and learn all those skills?\nLacey: Gosh, if I\u0026rsquo;d known then what I know now! First, The 4-Hour Workweek was useful because it talked about things that will suck up time in your business and why you need to thoughtfully design your business before you start. That was an advantage. I think a lot of people build successful businesses and spend enormous amounts of time on them, then suddenly go, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t leave the business because it relies on me.\u0026rdquo;\nFrom the beginning, I wanted to build something that didn\u0026rsquo;t require my time. That was a guiding principle, and it\u0026rsquo;s why I\u0026rsquo;ve never taken on investment or grown the business to have lots of employees. If that happens, you can\u0026rsquo;t turn it off unless you have a really good general manager whom you trust to run it so you can walk away.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t want to go down that path. Everything I did was about making a business I could switch on and off that would keep producing value for people while I wasn\u0026rsquo;t physically working. That was my guiding principle.\nIt works for someone who\u0026rsquo;s a content producer and educator, which is what I do. I produce educational financial content. Most of it is online and pre-recorded, which I\u0026rsquo;ve been doing for years. The last couple of years have been great because people finally said, \u0026ldquo;Oh yeah, we love this.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;ve also written a book, which now sells without me. You can read the book at any time, but I did the work for it back in 2019 and 2020.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s almost like having a passive-income setup for a business. That\u0026rsquo;s how I\u0026rsquo;ve thought about it. I still exchange my time for money and get hired to deliver courses. State governments, local councils, employer bodies, schools and all sorts of people hire me to deliver workshops. They might be more bespoke: \u0026ldquo;We want these people to learn about debt,\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;These ones want to learn about shares,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;Can you talk about superannuation for women?\u0026rdquo; I get asked to do those sorts of things, so that\u0026rsquo;s more time-dependent.\nBut you\u0026rsquo;re right: you have to learn how to do absolutely everything. You have to learn to be the accountant and bookkeeper, the social media marketer, the person writing the emails, the copywriter and all that stuff if you don\u0026rsquo;t want to build a big team, which I don\u0026rsquo;t. I\u0026rsquo;ve become a bit of a jack-of-all-trades, but the great thing is that there are lots of supportive communities you can join to become a member and get advice. There\u0026rsquo;s lots of online information and there are short courses you can do.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve actually learnt the most from copying people who do it well. I don\u0026rsquo;t mean that I copy and paste their content. If I get a really good email and think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s a great email. How have they done that?\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;ll analyse the spacing, sentence length, headline placement and how they chose the headline. They\u0026rsquo;re never in my industry—not many people write great emails in my industry—but you can learn just by observing.\nI do a lot of that and a lot of Googling. I\u0026rsquo;ve now run my own business for 12 years, so lots of people ask me, \u0026ldquo;Where should I start?\u0026rdquo; Starting with the end in mind is really important. I started my business knowing that I didn\u0026rsquo;t want it to be big, didn\u0026rsquo;t want to take investment because I didn\u0026rsquo;t want a boss, and wanted to be able to turn it off. That has determined where I\u0026rsquo;ve spent my time and what I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt.\nNot everyone will want a business like that. It depends on what you want; that was just my priority. The resources out there are fantastic, and observing other businesses is great. You can learn so much by watching who does it well and learning from their methods.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool and interesting to hear. A lot of it came from picking up things from other companies. I want to continue with this learning theme.\nSaving More or Earning More # James: When we talk about financial independence, one side gets a lot of attention: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to save X amount of what I earn.\u0026rdquo; The other side is perhaps discussed less: if I continue to save at the same rate but earn more, I\u0026rsquo;ve also saved more. You can either save more or increase your income. How do you think about that? In particular, how did you increase your income at different stages?\nLacey: I find earning more income vastly more interesting than saving money. I don\u0026rsquo;t have a budget, which sounds amazing for a financial educator. I put 50% of what I\u0026rsquo;ve earned in an account and spend it with impunity. I\u0026rsquo;m pretty good at mentally budgeting, I know my expenses, and I\u0026rsquo;m not a frivolous spender.\nThat works for me, but I don\u0026rsquo;t have a detailed, line-by-line budget. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t tell you exactly where every dollar goes because I don\u0026rsquo;t have to. I find that really boring and don\u0026rsquo;t get value from it. I\u0026rsquo;ve tried it before. It works for a lot of people, but not for me. I have much more fun asking, \u0026ldquo;How do I make more?\u0026rdquo; If I\u0026rsquo;m going to spend my time somewhere, I spend 90% of it on how to make more.\nMy whole life has been like that. It started when I was 10, when I ran my own business to make money because I couldn\u0026rsquo;t get a well-paid job and paper rounds paid too little. I started a business that ended up employing five of my friends.\nI chose my career at school. When I was 13 years and nine months, which was the legal age for getting a tax file number in Queensland at the time, I could finally be an employee. I started working in before- and after-school care and vacation care, and got a coaching qualification in artistic gymnastics. I was the youngest qualified coach in Queensland at the time. They usually made you wait until you were 16, but I qualified at 14.\nI did that because you earned about $15 an hour as a coach, versus $5.60 an hour at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s at the time. All my mates were earning $5.60 an hour at McDonald\u0026rsquo;s, sticking their arms into pickle barrels and coming home stinking. I was coaching artistic gymnastics, and coaching for an hour and a half was like them working for four hours. From the beginning, I was aware that some jobs paid more and you had to look for them. That was a priority for me.\nPart of the reason I chose engineering was that it was super-well-paid. It\u0026rsquo;s a really well-paid job. It\u0026rsquo;s not like medicine, but I don\u0026rsquo;t like medicine and don\u0026rsquo;t particularly want to work a 24-hour shift, which is what they expect many doctors and nurses to do. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t interested in that, but engineering had really good job prospects at the time. I started university around 2000, just before a mining boom and an oil and gas boom, and jobs were plentiful.\nI\u0026rsquo;d also researched the fact that engineering was the most common qualification among CEOs in Australia after an MBA. Lots of engineers run big companies because we\u0026rsquo;re good problem-solvers. I thought, \u0026ldquo;A CEO is well-paid. I\u0026rsquo;ll be an engineer, then become a CEO.\u0026rdquo; I loved chemical engineering and problem-solving, but my whole career strategy was very much about picking a role in which I\u0026rsquo;d earn a lot of money.\nThese days, when I go to Women in Technology WA, we visit schools and talk about studying STEM. I say, \u0026ldquo;Girls, ladies, everyone present: on average, you make much more money in STEM careers than in everything else. The end. Pick a STEM career.\u0026rdquo; If you want to be financially independent, pick a well-paid job.\nI understand that many people want to do caring roles, and that\u0026rsquo;s fine. Our society doesn\u0026rsquo;t pay caring roles well. If you choose one, a good income will be rare and you\u0026rsquo;ll have to fight for it. If you\u0026rsquo;re okay with that, that\u0026rsquo;s fine, but go in with your eyes open.\nIt sounds quite mercenary, and I don\u0026rsquo;t like it. I think we should pay carers more and pay all caring roles more. This is a mark of how society values people\u0026rsquo;s time. People have to acknowledge that if, at the beginning, you pick a career without good prospects for earning a solid income, I think that\u0026rsquo;s a little crazy. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter how much you love it: if you struggle financially, you\u0026rsquo;ll induce stress and have a harder life.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s pretty depressing. Sorry to ruin the excitement of everyone studying philosophy who plans to live on a beach and relax. Go for it if you want, but go in with your eyes wide open. You have to be deliberate about what kind of career you choose.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve always been like that. When I was in engineering, I would ask for an out-of-cycle pay rise every six months. You\u0026rsquo;d have your review once a year, but I\u0026rsquo;d go into the office between reviews and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, boss, I\u0026rsquo;ve done really well. Here\u0026rsquo;s my list. I would like a pay rise.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen I was finally promoted to superintendent, they said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re already in the superintendent\u0026rsquo;s pay band. How did you do that?\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve just been negotiating the whole time.\u0026rdquo; They told me they couldn\u0026rsquo;t even give me a big pay jump, and I said, \u0026ldquo;No, you still need to pay me more. I\u0026rsquo;m not going to be a superintendent at that rate.\u0026rdquo; They still had to give me a pay rise, but they said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re already outside the band.\u0026rdquo; Well, I should be. I\u0026rsquo;m very, very good at my job.\nI say that with a self-entitled attitude that really pisses employers off, but if you don\u0026rsquo;t ask, you won\u0026rsquo;t get. It\u0026rsquo;s important to be willing to ask. I\u0026rsquo;m not rude about it. I come in with evidence and strongly believe I\u0026rsquo;ve delivered the value, which is why I get paid more. I\u0026rsquo;m not nasty about it. You can\u0026rsquo;t go in if you haven\u0026rsquo;t done the job; you have to perform. But you have to ask, so I kept pursuing it.\nThat was while I was an employee. One day, someone on the team I was on as an internal consultant was running SAP. SAP is affectionately known as \u0026ldquo;suffer after purchase\u0026rdquo;. It\u0026rsquo;s an online system that big companies use for inventory control and invoice management. If you ever come across it, enjoy that.\nOne of the guys on site had managed to look up the SAP code for the project we were on. Five consultants had worked for seven months, and it cost $2.2 million. He and I sat down and calculated that, back in about 2007, our company was paying between $3,000 and $6,000 per consultant per day. We thought, \u0026ldquo;Oh my gosh, that\u0026rsquo;s ridiculous.\u0026rdquo; That was more than we would earn in weeks, and we were doing the legwork while they just turned up.\nWe were going, \u0026ldquo;Holy amazeballs, Batman!\u0026rdquo; Since then, I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt that, for the type of consulting I do, I\u0026rsquo;ll get charged out at $5,000 a day. That\u0026rsquo;s what a company will pay for me every day for six months.\nYou make a lot more money, so you have to look for those opportunities. It\u0026rsquo;s exactly the same skill set. I could be an employee doing that internally for a company and earn a quarter of what it would pay a consultant to do. I\u0026rsquo;m a bloody good deal, and I would think I was winning, but actually, changing over to consulting pays more.\nWhen you go into a big firm, it takes a very big cut. You might be charged out at $5,000 but only earn $2,000 while they keep $3,000. You have to find companies that will pay you more, so I looked for those that gave me a bigger cut. That\u0026rsquo;s how I\u0026rsquo;ve approached it.\nI sound very financially driven. Not everybody cares about this stuff, but I\u0026rsquo;m sorry to those who say, \u0026ldquo;Just follow your passion and the money will follow,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I know it\u0026rsquo;s not a well-paid job, but you should do it anyway.\u0026rdquo; You have to be pragmatic about whether you\u0026rsquo;ll be able to sustain the lifestyle and life choices you want. If you can, that\u0026rsquo;s fine. If you can\u0026rsquo;t, you\u0026rsquo;re setting yourself up for a bit of misery, and you need to acknowledge that.\nI\u0026rsquo;m at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I\u0026rsquo;m chasing the best pay I can get and refusing to accept less. I can do that with my particular skill set, and I\u0026rsquo;ve been very deliberate about building my skills. That\u0026rsquo;s part of why I became a consultant and focused on those skills. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Wow, if I can charge that amount of money for my time, why wouldn\u0026rsquo;t I pursue that?\u0026rdquo;\nFortunately, I loved that type of work. But if you\u0026rsquo;re doing it for money, you may as well make the most you can. That\u0026rsquo;s a very long, cynical answer. There\u0026rsquo;ll be lots of people who think it\u0026rsquo;s probably awful, and that\u0026rsquo;s fine. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to do it my way. But if you want to make a lot of money quickly when you\u0026rsquo;re young, it\u0026rsquo;s worth thinking seriously about how you\u0026rsquo;ll do that.\nAsking for Pay Rises # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really interesting. I want to touch on asking for out-of-cycle pay rises every six months. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to do it in a certain way. You can\u0026rsquo;t just go in and say, \u0026ldquo;Hi, boss man. Please pay me more,\u0026rdquo; and then say nothing else. Could you elaborate on what you did? You said you had a list of things you\u0026rsquo;d done and ways you\u0026rsquo;d outperformed or done well against what was expected of you. How did you typically approach those situations?\nLacey: There are two important things to consider with pay rises. Your greatest opportunity for a pay increase is when you start a new role. That\u0026rsquo;s true when you move from one role to another within a company, but even more so when you move to another company. Before they get you is your biggest point of leverage, because they want you to fill that role.\nThe amount and approach to money you start with will set a precedent for how they\u0026rsquo;ll continue to treat you. It\u0026rsquo;s when they\u0026rsquo;re least likely to take you for granted and most likely to try to entice you.\nOf course, I experienced much of this during a boom, when there was a lot of competition to employ people. It\u0026rsquo;s very different in an industry where you\u0026rsquo;re one of 100 or 1,000 applicants, or where there\u0026rsquo;s a lot of slack. You can\u0026rsquo;t necessarily do this in every role. You have to be very cognisant of what\u0026rsquo;s happening in your industry. But if you\u0026rsquo;ve chosen a career and industry where the market is currently on the seller\u0026rsquo;s—the employee\u0026rsquo;s—side, you can really push.\nAt that point, you need to think seriously about how you do it. My book has a script I was taught. I learnt all this through mentoring; consultants and friends at work taught me this stuff. It was nerve-racking to apply. The first time I said, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s not enough money, and I want 50% more,\u0026rdquo; I chewed all my nails off and sweated bullets for 24 hours, but they gave it to me. It was worth doing, so you have to be prepared for that.\nIf you want to read the script, borrow the book from the library and look at it. I won\u0026rsquo;t share it here because it won\u0026rsquo;t work if we all do it, and not everybody will go and read the book. Those of you who are excited about that kind of thing, go and look it up.\nWhen you\u0026rsquo;re in a role with the same boss, the point is: why would they pay you more? Because you\u0026rsquo;re adding more value and they either don\u0026rsquo;t want to lose you or want to share profits with you. That\u0026rsquo;s the way to think of it.\nYou can\u0026rsquo;t get away with this if you\u0026rsquo;re a slacker who doesn\u0026rsquo;t turn up to work or hit deadlines. You can try, and they might give you more money, but it\u0026rsquo;s not a reasonable ask and will look entitled. First, you have to do your job well. Once you\u0026rsquo;re doing that, ask away and put it in the calendar.\nHave a chat with your employer and say, \u0026ldquo;Can we talk? I\u0026rsquo;d like to discuss an out-of-cycle pay rise,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d like to talk about other opportunities to request a pay rise.\u0026rdquo; Remember, you don\u0026rsquo;t have to be rude and pushy. Make it a chat.\nIf they say no straight out of the gate, you can ask, \u0026ldquo;Okay, but why? When might you be able to do that?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s reasonable to ask for an explanation and a future date when you can do it. If they say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re never getting a pay rise, and don\u0026rsquo;t ask me again,\u0026rdquo; you have to think seriously about whether your career will progress there and whether it\u0026rsquo;s the right fit for you.\nIf they instead ask, \u0026ldquo;Why do you think you\u0026rsquo;re worthy of a pay rise, Lacey?\u0026rdquo; have your evidence. Mine wasn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily about milestones, though those are important. It was about the actual value I delivered. For example, we\u0026rsquo;d seen a 10% increase in production in my area. On one project I led, we were helping to add about $40 million a year to the bottom line. I was one of those people, not the only one, but I was leading the team. We had added $40 million a year to the bottom line. That\u0026rsquo;s worth something. I\u0026rsquo;m doing a really good job.\nWhatever it is in your job—client satisfaction, reviews, costs, production, something you\u0026rsquo;ve done, an improvement you\u0026rsquo;ve delivered or making other employees\u0026rsquo; lives easier—keep notes. I had a diary where I wrote and highlighted them.\nWhen I had that first discussion and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, boss, can we talk about this?\u0026rdquo; and they responded, \u0026ldquo;Tell me why,\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;Here are five things I\u0026rsquo;ve done in the last six months that added a lot of value and went above and beyond. I think that means I deserve a pay rise.\u0026rdquo; Most of the time, they\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;Okay, let\u0026rsquo;s talk about it.\u0026rdquo; Then it\u0026rsquo;s a negotiation: they make an offer, and you say, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s not enough.\u0026rdquo;\nAnother important part is lifestyle-driven benefits. We think only about money, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t just money. Companies can sometimes give us things that won\u0026rsquo;t have massive financial impacts on them. They don\u0026rsquo;t have to find extra money for salaries, but they might give you more flexibility, offer you a car or let you salary-sacrifice something. There are lots of things they can do that aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily financial.\nHave an idea of what would work for you. It might not just be money. Have that list so you can discuss it and they can take it back. Also recognise that, in a big company, someone above your boss usually has to approve anything out of cycle, and it depends on how high the request has to go. Have patience, be polite and follow up at agreed times.\nIf your boss says, \u0026ldquo;Look, I can ask,\u0026rdquo; you can say, \u0026ldquo;When can I check in with you? Would next Friday be okay?\u0026rdquo; If they answer, \u0026ldquo;We won\u0026rsquo;t have the meeting until the following Thursday,\u0026rdquo; say, \u0026ldquo;Great, can I meet with you the Friday after to find out?\u0026rdquo; Don\u0026rsquo;t let it go or expect them to do it. Be polite but reasonable, and ask for what you want.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t think there\u0026rsquo;s anything to lose from asking politely. If they say, \u0026ldquo;There\u0026rsquo;s no way. Our company is suffering, we\u0026rsquo;ve got layoffs coming or something massive has happened. We just can\u0026rsquo;t,\u0026rdquo; then okay, that\u0026rsquo;s fine. You\u0026rsquo;ve asked. If you don\u0026rsquo;t ask, you\u0026rsquo;ll never know, so you have to ask.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really good. Even if they say no, you can ask why, and that gives you things to do. Next time it comes around, you can say, \u0026ldquo;You told me to do this, and I\u0026rsquo;ve done it. Where are we now?\u0026rdquo; If they\u0026rsquo;re refusing to budge and that\u0026rsquo;s what you want, you have to consider whether you see yourself there.\nLacey: Exactly. Timing is important here. I\u0026rsquo;ve been in the mining industry since 2001 or 2002, when I did my first vacation work. I\u0026rsquo;ve been through a big boom, then a downturn, and now it\u0026rsquo;s booming again. The up period is when you really want to try this. If I\u0026rsquo;d tried it in about 2015, when everybody was getting laid off, I would have been laughed out of the building.\nYou have to be aware that it won\u0026rsquo;t work at every point in your career. Sometimes that\u0026rsquo;ll be because of you and sometimes because of circumstances beyond your control. You should always be thinking about it and actively deciding whether this is a good time. Being willing to ask is huge. Sometimes your boss will simply be too busy and won\u0026rsquo;t have noticed.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also worth looking at organisations such as Hays—H-A-Y-S—which do benchmarking and tell you the typical bands for your salary. Sometimes employers haven\u0026rsquo;t kept up because they\u0026rsquo;re too busy doing their jobs. Go into it assuming they have good intentions. If you\u0026rsquo;re not being paid the market rate, assume it\u0026rsquo;s not because they\u0026rsquo;re deliberately undercutting you, but because they didn\u0026rsquo;t realise the market had moved or that it was important to you.\nIf you approach it with inquisitiveness and a willingness to have a discussion, you generally won\u0026rsquo;t get a black mark against your name. It\u0026rsquo;s only when you walk in all bolshie and say, \u0026ldquo;I demand a pay rise today because I\u0026rsquo;m amazing. Just give it to me; I won\u0026rsquo;t accept anything less,\u0026rdquo; that you create future problems. You create a belief among management that you\u0026rsquo;re problematic or entitled. You have to think carefully about how you approach it, but it\u0026rsquo;s worth doing.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool, and it\u0026rsquo;s important. If you\u0026rsquo;re not testing the limit of how much someone can pay you, you\u0026rsquo;re leaving money on the table.\nLacey: Exactly. You should feel a bit uncomfortable. Honestly, I still get nervous when I do it. It\u0026rsquo;s perfectly logical to feel nervous, but I work on the premise that, as long as you don\u0026rsquo;t make it impossible for them to say no or give them an ultimatum—\u0026ldquo;Do this, or I\u0026rsquo;m leaving\u0026rdquo;—then it\u0026rsquo;s a chat. It\u0026rsquo;s a negotiation, and you\u0026rsquo;re representing yourself. You have to get the best for yourself, so it\u0026rsquo;s worth trying to overcome those nerves.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. I like that a lot.\nLacey\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question for you today, Lacey. Obviously, Graduate Theory is a career-focused podcast. If you had to restart your career and wind back to when you first started working, is there anything you would approach differently in your career progression or finances, knowing what you know now?\nLacey: There\u0026rsquo;s one small financial thing I didn\u0026rsquo;t understand as a graduate that now makes me think, \u0026ldquo;Shoot, I should have done something about that.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen I was working for Western Mining, BHP took us over. That was in my second year as a graduate. We had been given options with Western Mining, and I didn\u0026rsquo;t understand what options meant, so I didn\u0026rsquo;t exercise them. Now that I understand options, I think, \u0026ldquo;Ah, that\u0026rsquo;s $8,000 I could have had.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen something financial happens at work—perhaps they have a share plan or talk about salary sacrificing or superannuation matching—take the time to get support if you don\u0026rsquo;t understand it so you can make a good decision. If you get an offer from work, it\u0026rsquo;s important to understand whether it\u0026rsquo;s right for you and take the opportunities you can. Share and options plans are often designed to keep you with the company, but they\u0026rsquo;re a leg-up. They are an advantage. If you sign without understanding them or ignore them because they\u0026rsquo;re too hard, you can give up a lot. My advice is to take the time to learn.\nThe other thing I would encourage people to do is something I hadn\u0026rsquo;t thought about at the time. You can tell from our discussion that I\u0026rsquo;m quite forthright and will fight for what\u0026rsquo;s right for me.\nIn my second year as a graduate, I was one of seven graduates, two of whom were female. The five men and we two women were at a site with 10 women out of 300 employees in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia. That was the reality of going into mining in a remote location back then.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s very different now. The next site I went to was 20% female, compared with 10 women out of 300 employees. The first situation wasn\u0026rsquo;t normal, but when you\u0026rsquo;re the only woman on a site, or one of a few, you often get the women\u0026rsquo;s jobs.\nIn this case, during the 18 months I\u0026rsquo;d been there, my general manager had lost five executive assistants. That\u0026rsquo;s not normal. Clearly, it was a difficult role, but they couldn\u0026rsquo;t find someone and really needed someone. They asked me to fill in, and I had a massive tantrum. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t throwing my fists around, but I went into my boss\u0026rsquo;s office and said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re asking me to do this because I\u0026rsquo;m a woman, and I\u0026rsquo;m not happy about that. There are five other graduates who are male. Any of them could do that role. Why did you pick me?\u0026rdquo;\nI had a real bee in my bonnet about this. We always give women the job of taking notes, and they always have to get the frigging tea and all that stuff. It was a real issue I\u0026rsquo;d heard so much about, and I was very sensitive to it.\nI overreacted, but it was a fair call. My boss said, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s a fair thing for you to say because this does happen. But I promise you, Lacey, that\u0026rsquo;s not why you were chosen. Can you take my word for it that you\u0026rsquo;re going to learn something really important and that you want to take this role?\u0026rdquo;\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;Okay, fine.\u0026rdquo; I really liked the boss; JP was fantastic. I said, \u0026ldquo;All right, fine, I\u0026rsquo;ll do it. But I\u0026rsquo;m not happy that you\u0026rsquo;ve picked me because I\u0026rsquo;m a girl.\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not picking you because you\u0026rsquo;re a girl. Stop it.\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Okay, fine.\u0026rdquo;\nIt turned out that BHP was looking to buy Western Mining. I got to be part of the war room set up for the merger and acquisition. I was in discussions with the executive team and heard how they\u0026rsquo;d pitch the company and persuade another company to buy them. I learnt about M\u0026amp;A.\nLearning that at 22 is unusual for a graduate engineer who has just come off the furnace in a scruffy, dirt-covered outfit. I was in these meetings because I could make graphs and type. They needed that. Hearing those conversations, understanding how the war room was set up and learning about the process were some of the most invaluable experiences I got in that graduate program. You couldn\u0026rsquo;t have planned it.\nMy boss had noted that I wanted to be a CEO because I\u0026rsquo;d told him. He had asked, \u0026ldquo;Where do you want to go eventually?\u0026rdquo; and I said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d like to be a CEO eventually, so I want to do management stuff.\u0026rdquo; He put me in the role so I could get this amazing experience, because I was the graduate who\u0026rsquo;d said she was interested in it.\nHe was doing the right thing by me. The fact that I was female was neither here nor there. I\u0026rsquo;m lucky that, when I didn\u0026rsquo;t listen to him, he didn\u0026rsquo;t say, \u0026ldquo;Fine, I\u0026rsquo;ll give it to someone else,\u0026rdquo; just to spite me. I\u0026rsquo;m very lucky that he understood my response. That\u0026rsquo;s the difference between having a good boss and a bad boss.\nWhat did I learn from that? Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll think something happened for a reason when it didn\u0026rsquo;t. I had a bee in my bonnet. I looked at everything and thought, \u0026ldquo;They\u0026rsquo;re asking me to do that because I\u0026rsquo;m a girl. I\u0026rsquo;m refusing on principle because I\u0026rsquo;m a feminist, and thou shalt not make me.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s not always the case; it\u0026rsquo;s just your frame of reference. You need to be willing to listen when people tell you you\u0026rsquo;re wrong. Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll be right, and sometimes you won\u0026rsquo;t. I think that\u0026rsquo;s the most important thing.\nThe second thing I learnt from this experience, which has carried me through my whole career, is to pick your boss wisely. No one will have a bigger impact on how happy you are at work than your boss. The end. I reckon 80% of your satisfaction at work comes from whether you have a good boss or a not-so-good boss.\nYou have to have had not-so-good bosses to understand what a good boss is, I think. I\u0026rsquo;ve had only a couple of bad ones in my time. I\u0026rsquo;ve been very lucky and had fantastic bosses, but I became very choosy early on about who I\u0026rsquo;d work for.\nWhen I was younger, there were times when I worked for—I\u0026rsquo;m going to be blunt—a bad boss. He was shocking and shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been allowed to manage people. Everything was cookie-cutter, with no consideration of anyone\u0026rsquo;s personal views, circumstances or preferences. It was just, \u0026ldquo;No, this is how we do it. You will do it this way,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;We never give people that high mark. Everybody gets an average.\u0026rdquo; He shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been allowed to manage people.\nRecognise that that\u0026rsquo;s not necessarily you; it\u0026rsquo;s not your fault. When you\u0026rsquo;re new in the workplace, you don\u0026rsquo;t understand whether you\u0026rsquo;re not meeting expectations or have just been lumped with a bad boss. Sometimes it\u0026rsquo;s a little of both, so you have to be honest with yourself. But if you have a bad boss, accept that they\u0026rsquo;re not right for you. Maybe they\u0026rsquo;re good for other people, but they\u0026rsquo;re not right for you, so become choosy.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s something I learnt from my experience in my youth: I\u0026rsquo;ve got to be really picky about who I work for. Don\u0026rsquo;t work for arseholes. The end.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good point to finish on. You\u0026rsquo;ve given us lots of great tips. I agree with you about the boss situation. I\u0026rsquo;ve done three rotations at work and had three different bosses, and it\u0026rsquo;s clear to me and many of the other grads that, as you said, your boss is a very important part of satisfaction at work. I\u0026rsquo;m glad you\u0026rsquo;ve found that as well.\nConnect with Lacey # James: Thanks so much for chatting today. If people want to find out more about you and what you do, where should they go?\nLacey: Head to moneyschool.org.au. You\u0026rsquo;ll find everything there. I\u0026rsquo;ve got lots of free blogs, a free course on how to get out of debt, plenty of reading and information about how to get my book. Obviously, I consider the book to be a financial education. If you\u0026rsquo;re interested in this and want to learn about money and get ahead quickly, the book is a great place to start. You can grab it from your library or favourite bookstore. It\u0026rsquo;s everywhere because I went with Penguin, so they\u0026rsquo;re pretty mainstream. Money School is the place to start.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;ll have that in the show notes for anyone who wants to find it. Thanks again for coming on today, Lacey.\nLacey: Thanks for having me, James.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today. We look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 29\n","date":"9 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/29-on-negotiating-your-financial-future-with-lacey-filipich/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 29\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Negotiating Your Financial Future with Lacey Filipich","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nThis week, a special episode of Graduate Theory. This week, hear from Chris Dixon, Bill Gates, Tim Ferriss, Malcolm Gladwell and David Epstein on how to best approach your career.\nSpecialise early? Or be a generalist and specialise later?\nFind out in this week\u0026rsquo;s episode.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t miss the newsletter, subscribe now 👇\nSubscribe Now\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Short-Term Planning is a better approach # David had this to say on short-term planning\nthe dark horse project in the book, the common trait of people who find fulfillment in their careers, is it focused on short-term planning.\nAnd that resonated with me so much such that I ended up as a subject in the study, which I disclosed in the book. What they do is they all came in and would say, well, you know, don\u0026rsquo;t tell people to do what I did. I came through this weird path where I thought I was going to do one thing. And then I tried, I didn\u0026rsquo;t like it.\nSo Zig and zag and, and they all view themselves as having come out of nowhere, which is why the researchers called it, the dark horse project and their common trait is this short-term planning where they don\u0026rsquo;t look around and say, here\u0026rsquo;s, who\u0026rsquo;s younger than me and has more than me. They say, here\u0026rsquo;s who I am right now, here are my skills and interests, here are the opportunities in front of me. I\u0026rsquo;ll try this one. Here\u0026rsquo;s my hypothesis about what I\u0026rsquo;ll learn. And a year from now I\u0026rsquo;ll change because I will have learned something new and they just do that until they get to a spot where they can kind of uniquely succeed and feel fulfilled.\nHow interesting is that? Often we get told that we need a long term career plan about where we want to be. We get put onto a track like becoming a partner or a tech lead, without fully exploring possible other paths.\nIt turns out, those that who don\u0026rsquo;t plan actually tend to do better.\nBuilding a Broad Base # David had this to say when discussing the importance of building a strong base before specialising.\nLike, there was some recent research from LinkedIn that showed like people who become successful executives. One of the best predictors is the number of job functions they\u0026rsquo;ve worked across within an industry. Or again, to go to this obsession with precocity when Mark Zuckerberg was 22 and he said, young people are just smarter. MIT, Northwestern and the census bureau just has research out showing that the average age of a founder of a blockbuster startup on the day of founding, not even when it becomes a blockbuster is about 46.\nBecoming a successful executive, building a great startup and many other things don\u0026rsquo;t tend to happen until much later. Getting a broad experience may slow you down initially, but it is what will help you go further in the long term.\nEarly Specialisation is Counter-Productive # And the economist found a natural experiment in the higher ed systems of England and Scotland in the period he studied the systems were very similar except in England.\nStudents had to specialize in their mid-teen years to pick a specific course of study to apply towards in Scotland. They could keep trying things in university if they wanted to. And his question was who wins the trade-off the early or the late specializers?\nAnd what he saw was that the early specializes jump out to an income lead because they have more domain specific skills. The late specializers, get to try more different things. And when they do pick, they have better fit or what economists called match quality. And so their growth rates are faster by six years out, they erase that income gap.\nMeanwhile, the early specializes start quitting their career tracks in much higher numbers, essentially because they were made to choose so early that they more often made poor choices. So the late specializes losing the short-term and wind in the long run. I think if we thought about career choice, like dating, we might not pressure people to settle down quite so quickly\nAfter falling behind early, the late specialists have found something they really connect with. They then surpass those that specialise early.\nIf you are someone that still doesn\u0026rsquo;t know what to do, don\u0026rsquo;t fret. You are building very useful skills that will be transferred later.\nJust like dating, don\u0026rsquo;t think you need to settle down straight away.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Episode Sources # 2020 Ted Talk\nWhy specializing early doesn\u0026rsquo;t always mean career success | David Epstein - YouTube\n2019 Conversation with Malcolm Gladwell\nDavid Epstein in Conversation with Malcolm Gladwell - YouTube\nShort clip of Epstein and Gladwell Discussing\nEpstein and Gladwell discuss “Range” at MIT - David Epstein - YouTube\nTim Ferriss on not liking the 10,000-hour rule\nTim Ferriss Scoffs at Gladwell\u0026rsquo;s 10,000 Hours - YouTube\nGladwell on 10k hours\nMalcolm Gladwell on the 10,000 hour Rule - YouTube\nGladwell explains 10k hours further\nMalcolm Gladwell Demystifies 10,000 Hours Rule - YouTube\nGladwell talks about outliers\nMalcolm Gladwell - Outliers - YouTube\nGates on 10k hours\nBill Gates on Expertise: 10,000 Hours and a Lifetime of Fanaticism - YouTube\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 On the Specialist vs Generalist Dilemma 00:00 Episode Intro 01:57 Chris Dixon on Hill Climbing 03:33 The Two Approaches to Finding and Climbing \u0026lsquo;Hills\u0026rsquo; 04:48 The 10,000 Hour Rule 06:20 The Problem with the 10,000 Hour Rule 07:45 Bill Gates on the 10,000 Hour Rule 09:33 Tim Ferriss on the 10,000 Hour Rule 12:26 Range - The Tiger v Roger Problem 15:21 Adam Ashton on Range 19:24 Applications - Match Quality 22:56 Applications - Long Term Success Requires a Broad Base 25:23 Applications - Short Term Thinking 29:23 Application - Skill Intersections 32:22 Early Specialisation can be counter-productive 35:28 Outro\n","date":"2 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/28-on-the-specialist-vs-generalist-dilemna/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nThis week, a special episode of Graduate Theory. This week, hear from Chris Dixon, Bill Gates, Tim Ferriss, Malcolm Gladwell and David Epstein on how to best approach your career.\n","title":"On the Specialist vs Generalist Dilemma","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 28\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nEpisode Intro # Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today I\u0026rsquo;ve got a little bit of a different episode for you. An interesting thought exercise about careers is how to maximise your career potential. Some problems that we have when we start our careers are things like: how do I know if what I\u0026rsquo;m doing is what I\u0026rsquo;m meant to be doing? Am I doing something that is really matched to my skill set? Am I going to maximise my potential by doing this thing long into the future?\nThere are a lot of schools of thought and ways of approaching this problem. In today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we\u0026rsquo;re going to explore what we can learn from them and apply to our careers, so that we can plan more effectively and make better decisions about which industry and role to pursue. We\u0026rsquo;re starting with the idea of a hill climb.\nThen we\u0026rsquo;re going to look at the 10,000 hours rule and how that applies, before finishing with range and how it underpins many of the concepts we\u0026rsquo;ll discuss in today\u0026rsquo;s episode. There\u0026rsquo;s a lot of value in this episode.\nThere are a lot of great takeaways that can help you plan your career and decide which industry and type of job to pursue. Let\u0026rsquo;s get started with this idea of the hill climb.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned it before. A hill climb is essentially: imagine we\u0026rsquo;ve got lots of hills, and we want to climb to the highest hill. To explain this better, we\u0026rsquo;ve got Chris Dixon who\u0026rsquo;s going to explain this concept of a hill climb.\nChris Dixon on Hill Climbing # Chris Dixon: Number two: don\u0026rsquo;t climb the wrong hill.\nI speak a lot to young people who are thinking about joining startups and trying to recruit them. And I see a very common pattern, which is people get stuck in fields that they don\u0026rsquo;t like because they feel like they\u0026rsquo;re making incremental day-to-day progress. I think a good analogy for understanding this concept is one that comes from computer science. It\u0026rsquo;s known as hill climbing algorithms.\nTo describe this briefly, imagine a landscape, a hilly landscape with various tall hills and shorter hills, where your goal is to find the highest hill. And that might be whatever your personal goal is.\nWhat tends to happen, I think, especially with ambitious people, is that the lure of taking a step upward on the current hill is very strong and it\u0026rsquo;s very hard to step back and go and explore and look at other hills. What computer science teaches you is the optimal algorithm for finding the highest hill is to meander, explore a lot, especially early on, occasionally drop yourself into random places around the terrain.\nAnd when you find the highest hill, pursue it, no matter how attractive the upward step of the current hill might appear.\nThe Two Approaches to Finding and Climbing \u0026lsquo;Hills\u0026rsquo; # We can split the hill-climbing analogy into two key things. The first is finding the hill: which one are you going to climb? Let\u0026rsquo;s try to find the hill with the highest peak. As Chris said, the peak represents whatever our goal is for our career. It might be money, status, happiness or fulfilment. The first part is working out which hill is the highest and how to find it. The second is climbing the hill itself.\nOne approach to climbing the hill that has become popular in recent years is the 10,000 hour rule. It says that if you pursue something for 10,000 hours, you will eventually become world-class at it.\nAnd you\u0026rsquo;ll have the rewards associated with that. This idea was first popularised by Malcolm Gladwell. And we\u0026rsquo;ve got him here to explain that for you.\nThe 10,000 Hour Rule # Malcolm Gladwell: This is something I spend a lot of time on in Outliers: this notion of how long it takes to be good. A lot of psychologists have examined this question and discovered something.\nThe 10,000 hours rule says that when we look at a wide variety of cognitively complex activities, we find a very consistent pattern: it seems impossible to achieve true expertise unless you have practised for 10,000 hours. If you think of that as four hours a day, 10,000 hours is 10 years.\nThe 10-year rule shows up in almost everything. For example, chess grandmasters. There\u0026rsquo;s only ever been one chess grandmaster in history who has achieved that level without having played chess for 10 years. And that was Bobby Fischer, who became a grandmaster after nine years. You can take lovely studies of classical music composers.\nYou take them all and you see what is the first piece of music they wrote that was truly great, that was one of their signature pieces. And it has never been the case that a truly world-class piece of classical music has been composed before the composer was composing for 10 years. And people always say, \u0026ldquo;Well, what about Mozart?\u0026rdquo;\nWell, was Mozart composing at 10 and 11 years old? Absolutely. Have you ever listened to the things he was composing at 10, 11? They\u0026rsquo;re terrible. He wasn\u0026rsquo;t any good until he was 23 and wrote concerto number 9 in E flat.\nThe Problem with the 10,000 Hour Rule # So the core understanding and learning that we get from listening to Malcolm talk about the 10,000 hour rule is that if we want to achieve really high levels of success in a certain area, we need to be really focused on one thing for 10,000 hours. And this is roughly about 10 years of working on just that thing.\nSo the examples he gave were in music. Certain musicians had been working on their craft at least 10 years before they produced something that was truly incredible. And how do we apply this to careers? Well, perhaps according to this methodology, it\u0026rsquo;s going to take 10 years in your job.\nSo whether you\u0026rsquo;re a programmer or an analyst or whatever, it takes 10 years for you to become world class at that thing. Is this the right approach? And does the 10,000 hour rule apply across these fields like music and chess into something that is a little bit less well-defined, like work?\nIt\u0026rsquo;s interesting to think about because there is certainly some merit to it. If you\u0026rsquo;re going to do the same thing for 10 years, you\u0026rsquo;re going to be good at it. But I want to follow Malcolm\u0026rsquo;s piece with some pieces from Bill Gates and Tim Ferriss, who have some interesting comments on the 10,000 hour rule.\nAnd we can start with Bill Gates and hear his thoughts. And then we\u0026rsquo;ll hear from Tim.\nBill Gates on the 10,000 Hour Rule # Bill Gates: If somebody reads the book to say that if you spend 10,000 hours doing something you\u0026rsquo;ll be super good at it, I don\u0026rsquo;t think that\u0026rsquo;s quite as simple as that. What you do is you do about 50 hours and 90% drop out because they don\u0026rsquo;t like it or they\u0026rsquo;re not good.\nYou do another 50 hours and 90% drop out. So there\u0026rsquo;s this constant cycle. And you do have to be lucky enough, but also fanatical enough to keep going. And so the person that makes it to 10,000 hours is not just somebody who\u0026rsquo;s done it for 10,000 hours. They\u0026rsquo;re somebody who\u0026rsquo;s chosen and been chosen many different times.\nAnd so all these magical things came together, including who you know and the timing. That\u0026rsquo;s very important when you look at somebody who\u0026rsquo;s good and ask, \u0026ldquo;Could I do it like them?\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;ve gone through so many cycles that it may fool you into thinking that, yes, you could—with the right luck, imagination and some talent.\nSo what I pick up from what Bill Gates said was some things around how 10,000 hours is a nice way of packaging this, but really if you\u0026rsquo;re going to spend 10,000 hours doing something, you probably have some high level of interest in it. People might stick it out for a certain amount of time, but then they\u0026rsquo;re just going to drop off and pursue something else.\nAnd it says more about them and their interest and their skills and abilities in this thing to just persist for that long, rather than it just being a simple number and that anyone can do it.\nSo I think it\u0026rsquo;s interesting now to hear what Tim Ferriss has to say. Again, he has some interesting thoughts and critiques about the 10,000 hour rule.\nTim Ferriss on the 10,000 Hour Rule # Tim Ferriss: If you are, through God-given skill, capable of becoming the best in the world at X, I feel people typically know this early on. If you\u0026rsquo;re Tiger Woods, instead of drawing pirate ships, you\u0026rsquo;re drawing trajectories of different irons.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not kidding. I saw this drawing. That\u0026rsquo;s not normal. But for most people, I feel they have the capacity to be exceptionally good—in the top 5% in the world—in many different areas. They may not have, or be able to identify, the raw attributes that are going to push them into bobsledding, because there are only so many things you can try. I could try to become perfect in Japanese, which of course will never happen because I won\u0026rsquo;t be perfect in English. Or I could get to the point where I can converse like this in perhaps 20 languages by the end of my life.\nAnd it\u0026rsquo;s just more appealing.\nI thought Tim\u0026rsquo;s comments were really interesting. Most people can be pretty good at most things; it\u0026rsquo;s about deciding which ones. We can\u0026rsquo;t sample everything, so we have to pick a few. I also liked his point that you know early on if you can become the best in the world at something.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s something that he personally is not really interested in doing. With the language example, he\u0026rsquo;d rather be conversational in many languages than a deep specialist in one language.\nI thought that was an interesting idea: being good at many things rather than exceptionally good at one. That\u0026rsquo;s what we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about now—the idea of range, which partially runs counter to the 10,000 hour rule.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve previously discussed music and chess and how people that are successful in these fields have been working at them really hard for 10 years.\nWhat we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about now is more of a Tim Ferriss approach, where instead of being really good at one specific thing, we\u0026rsquo;re going to be reasonably good at more things and see how that approach plays out. Someone who has done a lot of research on this idea of range is David Epstein. He has a book called Range. It\u0026rsquo;s a fantastic book, one of my favourites, and I\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned it in some of my podcast episodes. We\u0026rsquo;re going to hear from him in a second, and he\u0026rsquo;ll explain this idea and how he thinks about it.\nAnd it really is one of the main examples that he uses to describe this idea.\nRange - The Tiger v Roger Problem # David Epstein: Okay, so I\u0026rsquo;ll lay out Roger versus Tiger because there\u0026rsquo;s a beautifully simple way of illustrating this argument.\nSo Tiger Woods—probably even for people who don\u0026rsquo;t know his story, you\u0026rsquo;ve probably absorbed at least the gist of it. Seven months old, his father gives him a putter, not trying to train him to be a golfer, but just gives him a putter. He starts carrying it around in his baby walker. At 10 months, he starts imitating a swing.\nHe was physically precocious. At two years old, he\u0026rsquo;s on national television. At that age, the CDC development benchmarks are \u0026ldquo;stands on tiptoes and kicks a ball\u0026rdquo;, and he went on television and showed off his driving in front of Bob Hope. By three, his father was media training him. At four, he started hustling people. He\u0026rsquo;s famous as a teenager. By 21, he\u0026rsquo;s the greatest golfer in the world. Roger Federer has perhaps the most famous development story in the history of anything.\nRoger Federer, meanwhile, played about a dozen different sports: skiing, skateboarding, badminton, tennis, basketball, soccer, all these things. His mother was a tennis coach, refused to coach him because he wouldn\u0026rsquo;t return balls normally. She said it was no fun. When his coaches tried to bump him up a level, he declined because he just wanted to talk about pro wrestling with his friends after practice. When he finally got good enough to warrant an interview with a local newspaper and the reporter asked him if he ever became a pro, what he would buy with his first paycheck, he said a Mercedes and his mother was appalled and asked if she could hear the interview recording. And he\u0026rsquo;d actually said \u0026ldquo;more CDs\u0026rdquo; in a Swiss German accent—he just wanted more CDs. And so then she was like, \u0026ldquo;Okay, we\u0026rsquo;re doing okay.\u0026rdquo;\nHis father had no rules. He just said, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t cheat,\u0026rdquo; and didn\u0026rsquo;t care about anything else. Federer specialised years later, having continued to play badminton, basketball and soccer. He was in his mid-teens when he was really only playing tennis, and he still continued to play soccer and other sports informally. The question was: which one of these models is the norm? Which one should we extrapolate from?\nThere are some really interesting ideas there from David. The question he\u0026rsquo;s raised is important for us: which of these two scenarios should we extrapolate from and build our lives around? One common mainstream idea is the early-specialisation, 10,000-hours rule, where we specialise early like Tiger Woods. That may be too early, but he\u0026rsquo;s special. Luckily, he knows he\u0026rsquo;s going to be a golfer when he\u0026rsquo;s only a couple of months old.\nShould we take this approach of early specialisation, or should we wait and follow more of the Roger Federer approach, where we play around with a bunch of different things and specialise later? It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting idea and one that I spoke about with Adam Ashton in episode 12 of the podcast. Here are his thoughts on range compared to the 10,000 hour rule.\nAdam Ashton on Range # Adam Ashton: For me, there was a real eye-opener in seeing the specialist and the generalist rebranded as going wide versus going deep. If you want to specialise in an area that is more like golf or chess, where there is a clear answer and a clear way to do it, the way to achieve success is to be the best person at it. That means working the hardest in that one niche field and going really, really deep. One book that links with this is Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, which discusses Anders Ericsson\u0026rsquo;s 10,000 hours rule: the violinists who had practised for 10,000 hours achieved mastery. If you want to go deep in something, get your 10,000 hours. Work really hard. Work more, learn more and achieve better things than everybody else. It also links with Grit by Angela Duckworth, because the path is going to be bloody tough.\nYou need a bit of grit to get through. You need to pick the right thing to go deep in and then use grit to reach those 10,000 hours. At the end of that journey, you become a master in your field and successful if that\u0026rsquo;s the path you choose. It\u0026rsquo;s a very viable path to success, but it\u0026rsquo;s not the only one.\nI think a lot of people probably think that is the only path: to work really, really hard at one thing and become the best at that. But there is another way to achieving success, which is going wide, the generalist approach, which we see in books like Range, as I said, by David Epstein, and Originals by Adam Grant, saying that it\u0026rsquo;s not just the one who works the hardest.\nMaybe it\u0026rsquo;s the one who\u0026rsquo;s done two years in this, three years in that, two years over here and another four years somewhere else. At the time, it looks like a weird path. They\u0026rsquo;re jumping between different things and learning different skills that seem unrelated, but at the end they reach a point where they find the intersection of all those skills.\nThey find the synergies and ways to stack everything together, so that they become the best in a niche at the intersection of all these different things—something nobody else could possibly do because they haven\u0026rsquo;t built up all the different skills. As you say, you\u0026rsquo;re probably a bit more biased towards that because that\u0026rsquo;s the path you\u0026rsquo;re on, and that\u0026rsquo;s definitely me as well. I think it holds a lot of merit. Just knowing there is a different path, rather than picking one thing and working really hard at it, is valuable. If you want to jump between different things, make sure you don\u0026rsquo;t simply quit something because you don\u0026rsquo;t like it, try something else, and then quit that too. You need intentionality around the different skills you\u0026rsquo;re building. You might seem like a failure at the start, but in the end you\u0026rsquo;ve stacked all these different things together to achieve your goals.\nSo Adam did a great job there breaking this problem down into the specialist versus generalist. So the specialist is the Tiger Woods, and the generalist is more of a Roger Federer type approach. And that\u0026rsquo;s not to say that the generalist doesn\u0026rsquo;t have actual skills, because certainly Roger Federer is still the best in the world at tennis, but he has more of that background.\nTiger Woods is still predominantly a golfer, whereas Roger Federer could probably play a few other sports and still be quite good. I want to dive further into the reasons this idea of range and having broader experiences can be a better approach than specialising early. There are quite a few, and we\u0026rsquo;re going to go through them now. The first is something David Epstein calls match quality.\nAnd then we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about how long-term success requires a broad base. So being able to succeed in the long term requires a broad range of experiences. And then last, we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about short-term thinking and how this plays out in the context of range. So again, we\u0026rsquo;re going to hear from David a lot throughout, and we\u0026rsquo;re going to hear from Malcolm Gladwell as well, who\u0026rsquo;s the guy behind the 10,000 hour rule.\nApplications - Match Quality # And the first thing we\u0026rsquo;re going to dive into is this idea of match quality.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s say I play soccer and don\u0026rsquo;t know which position I\u0026rsquo;m best at. Maybe I\u0026rsquo;m a good goalkeeper, defender or striker, and perhaps I start as a defender. A specialist approach would say that the best way to become a good defender is to play only as a defender, and that I\u0026rsquo;m not yet good because I haven\u0026rsquo;t spent enough time doing it. Alternatively, we can take the range approach: play a few positions and work out which gives me the highest match quality. I might play in midfield or score goals, then ask which was the best fit. Having experienced more variety and the game more fully, I can start to specialise and take one position more seriously.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve seen what it\u0026rsquo;s like to be a defender, midfielder and striker. I can put my position in the broader context of the game, understand all the roles and work out where my skills are best suited. If I play as a striker and find that I can score goals easily, we\u0026rsquo;ve learnt that my skills and attributes are a strong match for that position. Sampling allows me to work out which position I\u0026rsquo;m best at, and we can go from there.\nAnd so this is the first thing we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about. And David has his explanation on this here.\nDavid Epstein: Having seen this surprising pattern in sports and music, I started to wonder about domains that affect even more people, like work. An economist found a natural experiment in the higher education systems of England and Scotland during the period he studied. The systems were very similar, except that in England students had to specialise in their mid-teens and pick a specific course of study to apply towards. In Scotland, they could keep trying things at university if they wanted to. His question was: who wins the trade-off, the early or the late specialisers?\nAnd what he saw was that the early specialisers jump out to an income lead because they have more domain-specific skills. The late specialisers get to try more different things. And when they do pick, they have better fit, or what economists call match quality. And so their growth rates are faster. By six years out, they erase that income gap.\nMeanwhile, the early specialisers start quitting their career tracks in much higher numbers, essentially because they were made to choose so early that they more often made poor choices. So the late specialisers lose in the short term and win in the long run. I think if we thought about career choice like dating, we might not pressure people to settle down quite so early.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear that early specialisers are less likely to enjoy or continue what they do, whereas people who specialise later end up earning more and persevering further down that road.\nApplications - Long Term Success Requires a Broad Base # The next part we want to discuss is how long-term success requires a broad base. Then we\u0026rsquo;re going to go deeper into this specialist-versus-generalist idea.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re going to understand that there are two kinds of environments. One is called a kind environment. These are things like chess and music, where specialising early is beneficial. The tasks are repetitive and can be easily automated. Practice is important—you need to practise that thing a great deal—and the rules are well-defined. In contrast, what David Epstein calls \u0026ldquo;wicked\u0026rdquo; environments are those where the rules aren\u0026rsquo;t clear. There is no set field of play; the rules and the game are constantly changing. Different strategies work better in each type of environment.\nGolf and music are kind environments. In these fields, early specialisation is useful and necessary to achieve a high level of success. In wicked environments, where the game is less well-defined, breadth is important because you\u0026rsquo;re going to apply skills in unique and novel ways.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to have a larger variety of experiences to draw on, rather than the same narrow set. Here is David Epstein explaining the concept in more detail.\nDavid Epstein: There was some recent research from LinkedIn that showed people who become successful executives—one of the best predictors is the number of job functions they\u0026rsquo;ve worked across within an industry. Or again, to go to this obsession with precocity: when Mark Zuckerberg was 22, he said, \u0026ldquo;Young people are just smarter.\u0026rdquo; And MIT, Northwestern, and the Census Bureau just has research out showing that the average age of a founder of a blockbuster startup on the day of founding, not even when it becomes a blockbuster, is about 46.\nBut, as with the Tiger story, we focus on the Zuckerberg story. People usually have to zigzag quite a bit before they find that fit, because the goal isn\u0026rsquo;t initially clear, unlike in kind learning environments.\nApplications - Short Term Thinking # David also has some thoughts on planning your career with this mindset. If we\u0026rsquo;re going to try a bunch of different things, how does that work in terms of planning? How do we think about a five- or 10-year plan, a long-term vision for our career, what we want to do and the problems we want to solve?\nDavid says that he\u0026rsquo;s purely a short-term thinker. He doesn\u0026rsquo;t consider much in the long term. Short-term thinking and jumping to the next opportunity that most interests him allows him to create range along the way and have unique, really cool experiences.\nHere he is talking about it now.\nDavid Epstein: One programme that I learned about while researching is called Career Academies that targets kids who, by traditional measures, are not really headed to college, and gives them some sort of vocational training, basic or early exposure to types of work.\nSurprisingly, even when they don\u0026rsquo;t decide to do anything with that career, they still do better overall in terms of income, despite going on to do something totally different. I think some of that is because they\u0026rsquo;re getting more significant signals about themselves and match quality than they often do in traditional classes.\nMalcolm Gladwell: Speaking of match quality, presumably you couldn\u0026rsquo;t keep sampling forever.\nDavid Epstein: I have no idea what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do when I grow up—or even what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do now. When I was a teenager, I thought I was going to go to the Air Force Academy, be a test pilot and be an astronaut. I\u0026rsquo;ve gotten linearly less long-term goal-directed.\nMalcolm Gladwell: I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether your particular position right now as a best-selling author is generalisable to the general public.\nDavid Epstein: No—but this was in the Dark Horse Project in the book. The common trait of people who find fulfilment in their careers is that they focus on short-term planning.\nThat resonated with me so much that I ended up as a subject in the study, which I disclosed in the book. They all came in and would say, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t tell people to do what I did. I came through this weird path where I thought I was going to do one thing. Then I tried it and didn\u0026rsquo;t like it.\u0026rdquo;\nThey zig and zag. They all view themselves as having come out of nowhere, which is why the researchers called it the Dark Horse Project. Their common trait is short-term planning: they don\u0026rsquo;t look around and say, \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s who\u0026rsquo;s younger than me and has more than me.\u0026rdquo; They say, \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s who I am right now. Here are my skills and interests. Here are the opportunities in front of me. I\u0026rsquo;ll try this one. Here\u0026rsquo;s my hypothesis about what I\u0026rsquo;ll learn. A year from now, I\u0026rsquo;ll change because I will have learned something new.\u0026rdquo; They continue until they get to a spot where they can uniquely succeed and feel fulfilled.\nAnd so I\u0026rsquo;ve totally abandoned longer-term planning in favour of these short-term proactive experiments. And why would you have to stop? You can keep doing that your whole life.\nThere is some really interesting material there from David. This idea of short-term planning runs contrary to modern career advice such as, \u0026ldquo;Plan out the next five years, and then work out where you want to go from there. Plan your next year.\u0026rdquo;\nEveryone wants a sense of security about where their general life direction is headed. But David raises an interesting point: many people who find success and fulfilment are only thinking about the next best thing for them to do. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be in the same field or industry. Jumping around and pursuing exciting opportunities is encouraged. We\u0026rsquo;re not necessarily saying to disregard everything else and continue down the path of specialisation you\u0026rsquo;re already on, because his research suggests that\u0026rsquo;s not the most effective approach.\nApplication - Skill Intersections # Another really interesting piece to come out of this whole concept is this idea of skill stacking.\nThis is something I spoke about with Dan Brockwell in episode 15 of the podcast. We discussed the benefits of range and building certain skills to a particular level, similar to what Tim Ferriss talked about earlier in this episode. We might not be the best in the world at each skill individually, but combining them can create something really special.\nAnd here\u0026rsquo;s Dan explaining this for us.\nDan: Scott Adams was a funny guy. He could tell jokes, but he wasn\u0026rsquo;t the world\u0026rsquo;s best. He was a decent artist, he could draw, but he wasn\u0026rsquo;t the world\u0026rsquo;s best artist. And he worked in a corporate culture and offices and all that, but it wasn\u0026rsquo;t like he was the best corporate worker. But the intersection of those three things allowed him to create a really unique intersection.\nIt allowed him to create a humorous comic about office culture. By being better than average at several things, he found their intersection and was able to get a really big win on the board. When it comes to being a generalist and the range thesis, I haven\u0026rsquo;t read Range.\nSo forgive me if I\u0026rsquo;ve misinterpreted the thesis. Starting early and exploring many things is great, but you\u0026rsquo;ll find some that you naturally gravitate towards, really enjoy or find energising. I think the magic comes from identifying the two or three things you\u0026rsquo;re best at—perhaps three or four—and asking what their intersection is.\nWhen I say \u0026ldquo;best at\u0026rdquo;, it could be a skill or knowledge about a certain area. Perhaps you\u0026rsquo;ve spent a lot of time working in sustainability and also love making TikToks as an avid user of social media.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re good at short-form content creation and doing funny stuff. You might then create a sustainability TikTok channel. I always think about intersections. Every person has such a beautiful, rich and complex story in life. We will all encounter different things and be great at certain things.\nHow do you tap into your strengths and combine them into a unique offering that no one else can provide because no one else is you? James, you\u0026rsquo;re the best at being you—specifically, James. There are other good Jameses. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to insult them.\nI have several friends named James. But I think it\u0026rsquo;s such a fascinating idea.\nThere are some really interesting insights there from Dan. It\u0026rsquo;s a great way to think about your career: what am I both interested in and good at, where is the intersection between those things, and what unique contribution can I provide to the world? If you can think about those things and perhaps develop certain skills, you can build something quite unique.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s something only you can do. I thought that was really good. It\u0026rsquo;s another element of range and building a broad set of experiences, so that we can bring unique insights and differentiators into new areas.\nEarly Specialisation can be counter-productive # We\u0026rsquo;re coming close to the end of this episode now, and I want to finish off with a piece from David Epstein\u0026rsquo;s TED talk on this topic. And I\u0026rsquo;d highly recommend watching the TED talk and lots of the other content that I\u0026rsquo;ve shared.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;d like to go deeper on this concept, in this last piece he talks about how often society pressures us to become specialists early. We\u0026rsquo;re often told, \u0026ldquo;Go and do this thing and become really great as fast as possible in this one specific area,\u0026rdquo; when what the world needs—and what is often a better approach—is to sample and pursue many different things. That way, you\u0026rsquo;ll be able to see new problems in unique ways and make the world a better place. Here is David Epstein in his TED talk.\nDavid Epstein: I think in the well-meaning drive for a head start, we often even counter-productively short-circuit even the way we learn new material at a fundamental level. In a study last year, seventh-grade maths classes in the U.S. were randomly assigned to different types of learning. Some got what\u0026rsquo;s called blocked practice.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s like getting problem types A, A, A, B, B, B, and so on. Progress is fast. Kids are happy. Everything\u0026rsquo;s great. Other classrooms got assigned to what\u0026rsquo;s called interleaved practice. That\u0026rsquo;s like taking all the problem types, throwing them in a hat and drawing them out at random. Progress is slower. Kids are more frustrated.\nBut instead of learning how to execute procedures, they\u0026rsquo;re learning how to match a strategy to a type of problem. When the test comes around, the interleaved group blew the blocked practice group away. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t even close. I\u0026rsquo;ve found a lot of this research deeply counter-intuitive: the idea that a head start, whether in picking a career, a course of study or simply learning new material, can sometimes undermine long-term success.\nAnd naturally, I think there are as many ways to succeed as there are people. But I think we tend to only incentivise and encourage the Tiger path when increasingly, in a wicked world, we need people who travelled the Roger path as well. Or as the eminent physicist and mathematician and wonderful writer Freeman Dyson put it—and Freeman Dyson passed away yesterday, so I hope I\u0026rsquo;m doing his words honour here—as he said, \u0026ldquo;For a healthy ecosystem, we need both birds and frogs.\u0026rdquo;\nFrogs are down in the mud, seeing all the granular details. The birds are soaring up above, not seeing those details, but integrating the knowledge of the frogs. And we need both. The problem, Dyson said, is that we\u0026rsquo;re telling everyone to become frogs.\nAnd I think in a wicked world, that\u0026rsquo;s increasingly short-sighted. Thank you very much.\nThere we go. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a nice note to end this episode on. Specialising early can be useful; we need people who do that. But if you aren\u0026rsquo;t specialising early and you\u0026rsquo;re taking more of the range route, drawing on diverse experiences throughout your career, that\u0026rsquo;s also a very valid path.\nOutro # I want to thank you so much for listening to this episode today. It\u0026rsquo;s been great being able to share this with you. If you did enjoy this episode, give it a like, give it a share. And what you can do is you can subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter at graduatetheory.com, where you can get emails every single week with each episode and my takeaways.\nThanks again for listening to this episode today, and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you next week.\n← Back to episode 28\n","date":"2 May 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/28-on-the-specialist-vs-generalist-dilemna/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 28\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On the Specialist vs Generalist Dilemma","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nThis is episode #27 of Graduate Theory. Rarely do we ever see behind the scenes of HR and what it takes to make it through competitive Graduate recruitment processes.\nToday, your questions will be answered.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t miss the newsletter, subscribe now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nKerry Callenbach has worked in HR for over 18 years in professional services, banking, health , sports and tech. A former nurse and professional athlete, she is passionate about developing people to be their best.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Do Something Different # When applying for roles and creating your resume, a great way to stand out is to do something different to the masses.\nthere\u0026rsquo;s so many incredible resume templates, you know, on, on places like Canva and they\u0026rsquo;re all for free, right. And Microsoft in amazing templates, but guess what? They\u0026rsquo;re also available to everyone else.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re really keen on a role, consider doing something different from the norm.\nUse the company colours somewhere on the page, submit something a little different. It may be what you need to get to the next step.\nMistakes Graduates Make in Applications # Kerry had some great insights into what mistakes graduates commonly make during the recruitment process 👇\nnot tailoring your application to the company not being prepared to have a conversation with a recruiter not contributing during group assessments not preparing for interviews Weather Chat Is Important # Often when you\u0026rsquo;re about to interview, there\u0026rsquo;s some weather chat. It can be a little bit awkward.\nKerry says to embrace this and to understand that building rapport in these situations is a really important skill to have.\nso that\u0026rsquo;s really important that walk to the interview room or when you log on for a virtual interview. Be comfortable to have some of those icebreaker discussions, things like, you know, Hey, how\u0026rsquo;s it going? How\u0026rsquo;s your week been? What\u0026rsquo;s been keeping you busy? What have you got planned for the Easter weekend?\nAll of those conversations points are actually relationship building conversation starters, right. And that\u0026rsquo;s really, really important whether you work in consulting, whether you work in a product company. The being able to converse and communicate with others and build rapport and relationships is really important. So don\u0026rsquo;t underestimate the importance and the impact that having weather chat conversation starters is in an intense\nBe Kind To Yourself # As a Graduate, we want to do well. We want to jump right into the thick of things and impress.\nKerry says that it\u0026rsquo;s important to be kind to yourself and understand that this level of intensity cannot continue forever.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t put too much pressure on yourself to succeed straight away, play the long game and don\u0026rsquo;t stress yourself out if things aren\u0026rsquo;t happening as quickly as you\u0026rsquo;d like.\nWhat Makes a Successful Graduate # Kerry had these things to say about what makes a successful graduate\nBe Kind To Yourself Be curious Be open to feedback Be willing to collaborate Get the breadth, but don\u0026rsquo;t forget the depth Get the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Kerry # https://www.linkedin.com/in/kerry-calle/\nkerry.callenbach AT mantelgroup.com.au\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Kerry Callenbach\n00:19 Intro\n01:26 Kerry having 20,000+ applications at Deloitte\n03:33 What does the application process typically look like?\n06:48 How many people actually get to the final interview stage from the initial application process?\n10:26 What steps can people take to improve their application?\n14:47 Tailor Your Application\n16:51 What Mistakes do Graduates make when applying for roles?\n22:56 Traits of Successful Graduates\n30:42 What would Kerry change about Graduate Programs?\n34:38 Kerry\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n38:24 Contact Kerry\n39:24 Outro\n","date":"25 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/27-kerry-callenbach/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nThis is episode #27 of Graduate Theory. Rarely do we ever see behind the scenes of HR and what it takes to make it through competitive Graduate recruitment processes.\n","title":"On Finding and Thriving in Your Dream Graduate Role with Kerry Callenbach","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 27\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nKerry: As a graduate or someone early in their career, your job is to learn from others. Being open and comfortable with feedback is really important as well.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest has worked in HR for over 18 years in professional services, banking, health, sports, and now tech. She\u0026rsquo;s a former nurse and professional athlete and passionate about developing people to be their best. Please welcome Kerry Callenbach.\nKerry: Hi, James. What an intro! I was wondering whether you were really talking about me.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s amazing what you\u0026rsquo;ve managed to achieve. You\u0026rsquo;ve had exposure to human resources across a wide number of domains and some really interesting experiences that I\u0026rsquo;m excited to chat about today.\nBefore the episode, you told me that you used to work at Deloitte, managing its graduate recruitment work across Australia. One year, you saw 20,000 applications for graduate positions. I\u0026rsquo;d love to dive into that story and hear what it involved.\nKerry having 20,000+ applications at Deloitte # Kerry: What a great place to start. I worked at Deloitte for just under 10 years. I started in graduate recruitment, then reached a point where I was looking at it nationally for Deloitte Australia. It\u0026rsquo;s a big global consultancy.\nIt was a phenomenal place to get a really good grounding on graduate recruitment and the role graduates play in a work ecosystem, and also some of the richness that you can get from being in big places like that. But being in big places like that does mean it\u0026rsquo;s got a great brand and a great reputation.\nBack then, you\u0026rsquo;d be out at university society events and we could all still meet in person. I think that\u0026rsquo;s starting to happen again now. You would meet a lot of people along the way. That particular year had a large intake: I think we were bringing in around 500 or 600 vacationers and graduates across Australia. That led to a large number of applications. The rules for international students had recently changed, which meant we could consider students with visas when we hadn\u0026rsquo;t been able to before.\nWe received just over 20,000 applications. We had really strict timelines: we\u0026rsquo;d open and close applications, screen them all by a certain date and try to finish within three or four days. Then we would start our recruitment process with group assessments. It took an entire team—12 of us—and we would call on experienced interviewers from the different service lines to help screen applications. Every application was reviewed and either accepted or rejected.\nJames: Wow.\nKerry: Right at the beginning of it.\nHow does the application process typically look? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s pretty incredible. What does that look like? There are all these steps now when you\u0026rsquo;re applying, including automated testing and video interviews. Does everyone do those things, or how does narrowing people down work? When do people start getting the noes?\nKerry: Really good question. I think the digitalisation of recruitment has become far more prevalent in the last couple of years with the introduction of things like video interviewing. You complete the coding test before we\u0026rsquo;ll talk to you, all of those things. Really what they are ultimately is a screening tool. It\u0026rsquo;s a way to filter candidates out.\nEvery employer will look for something different, and the best way you can determine what they\u0026rsquo;re looking for is two things. When you jump on the website, most employers are pretty transparent about what makes a good candidate and what makes someone successful in their company. Have a look at things like values or principles as well, because attributes and capabilities will be intrinsically tied back through behaviours to values or principles. They\u0026rsquo;re really good starting places to understand what does good look like and what things they\u0026rsquo;re going to be screening for or filtering for in an application.\nUltimately they will be using it to determine whether they take you through to the next step. Your first point is always your resume or your CV. I say that\u0026rsquo;s like your invitation to come into someone\u0026rsquo;s house. You pop it in the postbox and that\u0026rsquo;s their determination: \u0026ldquo;Hey, I like what I see, I\u0026rsquo;d like to pursue this conversation.\u0026rdquo;\nSo the first thing I always say is make sure you\u0026rsquo;ve got a CV. Some people still ask for cover letters—I hope we might move on from that—but make sure they\u0026rsquo;re tied back to the success factors or the values or the principles. Are you referring to them in your cover letter? Have you highlighted them or where you may have demonstrated them prior at university, at your work, at your volunteer activities, at church, at sport? Make sure they are tied back into your application.\nOnce you\u0026rsquo;ve got through that, you\u0026rsquo;ll have different tests based on what the employer is looking for. Whether it\u0026rsquo;s a coding test, an interview or an inbox tray exercise, each one filters your application based on your ability to perform or demonstrate particular attributes.\nFor example, in a video interview, they\u0026rsquo;ll be looking for communication skills. How do you think on your feet? They might also ask specific behavioural questions. Assessing those attributes earlier shortens the time they would otherwise spend at a later stage. Does that help?\nThe process will depend on the employer, but each stage is ultimately a filtering or screening process for those attributes and capabilities, both technical and behavioural.\nHow many people actually get to the final interview stage from the initial application process? # James: Roughly what percentage of people get past the video interview? I\u0026rsquo;m guessing there\u0026rsquo;s usually a group assessment or a more personal experience after that. How many people get to that stage?\nKerry: That was one of the most common questions I would get on campus. Here\u0026rsquo;s the reality: there is a number, and it will be determined by how many places they have in the program.\nFor example, if I take the 20,000—don\u0026rsquo;t quote me on these exactly, I can\u0026rsquo;t remember exactly how many they were—but we would take, I think, 500 grads that year. Out of 20,000 applications, we\u0026rsquo;d probably screen it down and then from there we would get a phone screen and we would probably narrow that down to maybe six or seven hundred. And then through there you\u0026rsquo;d get the filtering process.\nEvery stage is a cut-off, generally determined by the prior year. Your team will sit down and say, \u0026ldquo;Last year we took 10 graduates. We brought 20 people through the process because we had a 50% decline rate. Knowing that, next year we\u0026rsquo;ll have to bring at least 20 candidates through if we want 10 graduate acceptances.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s all based on decline rates from previous years.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. Some people are getting multiple offers and have to decline them. Often people are in the reverse situation, where they get a yes for the one offer they want. That\u0026rsquo;s definitely something to think about.\nKerry: That\u0026rsquo;s how big companies work. Smaller and medium-sized companies or startups can be very different. They\u0026rsquo;re much more concerned with, \u0026ldquo;Is this someone we can work with?\u0026rdquo; The technical side is important, don\u0026rsquo;t get me wrong. But when you\u0026rsquo;ve got a smaller team working closely with someone for eight or nine hours a day, you want to know you\u0026rsquo;ll get along with them.\nMy boss at Mantle Group, Caroline Hinshaw, has an airport test. Her airport test is: if you were stuck in an airport with that person for four hours, would you want to just get on the first plane home, or would you be like, \u0026ldquo;Cool, that\u0026rsquo;s okay, I feel really great about it\u0026rdquo;? When you\u0026rsquo;re getting into a small place, that airport test is super important.\nSo the bigger companies will use more sophisticated or advanced recruitment screening and filtering, and it can be brutal. I\u0026rsquo;ll be really honest. To get to the final point, it can come down to things such as attention to detail, grammar, spelling on applications.\nI would always get applications where someone was applying to Deloitte but they\u0026rsquo;d have one of the other big four brand names on it—and that\u0026rsquo;s a red flag. We know you\u0026rsquo;re applying everywhere. I think you\u0026rsquo;d be pretty silly to think that people aren\u0026rsquo;t applying for multiple jobs, but ultimately if it came down to two candidates and both had performed exceptionally well through the process, you do have to go, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s going to be the tiebreaker?\u0026rdquo; Unfortunately it can come down to really minor things like spelling and grammar and attention to detail.\nWhat steps can people take to improve their application? # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love to continue that. What things can people do to have a better chance of getting to the end of these processes? Because there is a lot of automation and things like that now. How can people set themselves up through this process to have a better chance of getting to the end?\nKerry: I think that is such a good point. Throughout my time, and we\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about this as well, it\u0026rsquo;s why I\u0026rsquo;ve done things a little bit differently at Mantle Group. I think sometimes when you look at how many roles you need to recruit or bring through, we forget to humanise the process.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s brutal going through a recruitment. It\u0026rsquo;s not nice. You have to stand there and talk about yourself and put yourself up on a pedestal. That\u0026rsquo;s not easy for a lot of people to do. It\u0026rsquo;s not a natural thing. We\u0026rsquo;re not natural at talking about ourselves to others to say how amazing we are. It feels a bit funny.\nI think a couple of things. My first one: get comfortable with your own elevator pitch. What is it? Why are you special? Think about how you would talk about yourself and what you\u0026rsquo;re really good at or what you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about. Practice your elevator pitch.\nThe best people you can do it to are, quite honestly, your mum, your dad, your partner, because they\u0026rsquo;ll give you the most brutal feedback. They\u0026rsquo;ve got nothing to lose. You\u0026rsquo;re still going to love them even if they say something harsh. So I think that would be my first point.\nThe second is to humanise the process where you can. Go to events, meet-ups and online seminars, and try to meet people from the company to get a feel for it. Every time we run a campaign, I\u0026rsquo;ll get messages from people in the business: \u0026ldquo;I just met this person\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;This person reached out to me on LinkedIn. I had a really good chat with them.\u0026rdquo;\nSo you do go, \u0026ldquo;OK, great. Jo has recommended James. So I\u0026rsquo;m going to have a look for James\u0026rsquo;s application now.\u0026rdquo; Referral is always a really good thing. Reach out, go chat with people from the company, go to those events, go to those meet-ups, and see if you can introduce yourself or get to chat with someone from the company.\nI think the third one is tailor your application. Every company is different. Everyone is unique. So really make sure that you represent that in your application, that you\u0026rsquo;ve demonstrated you\u0026rsquo;ve done some research about the company, that there\u0026rsquo;s an alignment between what they do and what you want to do or where you want to work.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s really important. For example, a bigger corporate company will have traditional hierarchies and structures and processes and policies in place. If someone was to write about how policies and hierarchies are really important for them to advance their career and they applied to Mantle, it wouldn\u0026rsquo;t work because we don\u0026rsquo;t have any of those things. We don\u0026rsquo;t have any HR policies. We have no performance reviews. We have no hierarchy.\nSo you\u0026rsquo;ve got to tailor your application to represent that you\u0026rsquo;ve done some research, but also that it aligns to what you want to do. That\u0026rsquo;s really important because we will look for those things.\nThose annoying stock-standard questions you have to put on an application get read, because they help us see that James is comfortable with a flat structure or that he\u0026rsquo;s self-motivated and won\u0026rsquo;t need KPIs in a performance review to guide him.\nThere are things that are really important. Ultimately at the end of the day, I give absolute kudos to anyone who reaches out to me directly and says, \u0026ldquo;Can I chat? I\u0026rsquo;ve got a question I want to ask.\u0026rdquo;\nAnd look, I might not get back to you straight away. Follow up. Show your passion, show your desire. That would be my key tips: elevator pitch, go out and meet people, humanise the process for you and them, and then tailor your application to reflect that you\u0026rsquo;ve done your research and that it truly aligns with what you want to do and how you want to work.\nTailor Your Application # James: I think that\u0026rsquo;s so important. Tailoring your application can really separate you from someone who sends the same resume to every company. I recently saw someone make a new resume using the colours of the company\u0026rsquo;s platform. It was a Spotify application with green in certain places and Spotify\u0026rsquo;s dark grey. I liked that. It would be a bonus because it shows that you care.\nKerry: Hundred percent. If you can stand out—and look, the challenge you\u0026rsquo;ve got is there are so many incredible resume templates on places like Canva and things. They\u0026rsquo;re all for free. Microsoft has amazing templates. But guess what? They\u0026rsquo;re also available to everyone else. So if you\u0026rsquo;re using that amazing template, I guarantee you other people are using that tool.\nDo something really different. I\u0026rsquo;m thinking back to someone who applied for a role and sent their resume inside a box of chocolates. In each wrapper was an attribute they thought they had. You opened it up—no chocolates inside, dammit—but found statements such as, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m a good communicator.\u0026rdquo; We were hiring for a role in education, and the idea was that teachers always receive chocolates. Her application was, \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s my box of chocolates to you.\u0026rdquo;\nI called her because I thought it was so clever. It was different and caught my attention. I wanted to learn more about her because the application was so creative. Was creativity important where I was working? Yes, it was. So let\u0026rsquo;s chat.\nWhat Mistakes do Graduates make when applying for roles? # James: What mistakes do people make during this process? Are there simple things that would make a big improvement if people fixed them? Does anything come to mind?\nKerry: That\u0026rsquo;s a good question. I\u0026rsquo;m reflecting back on what are some common mistakes or common things that I see. I think the big one would be not tailoring the application. Just wrong details, things like that. Take the time to do that.\nI think the second one would be not being prepared to have that conversation. So if you put in a job application, expect to be called. I think you should just expect to be called. Sometimes people answer the phone and remember, that\u0026rsquo;s your first impression with your employer. It\u0026rsquo;s a horrible one, but it is. It\u0026rsquo;s your first impression to go, \u0026ldquo;This is me. Here\u0026rsquo;s my elevator pitch,\u0026rdquo; so to speak.\nBe prepared to talk. A lot of the time, I would speak to people who couldn\u0026rsquo;t understand—they\u0026rsquo;re like, \u0026ldquo;Where have I applied for? What do you do again?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s not a great first impression to make. So always be prepared. Once you press send, be ready to do your elevator pitch.\nAnd if you\u0026rsquo;re not ready, that\u0026rsquo;s okay too. Maybe you\u0026rsquo;re getting ready for finals, you\u0026rsquo;re studying, you\u0026rsquo;re in intense exam prep. Just say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m so sorry, I can\u0026rsquo;t talk right now. Is there a time that I can call you?\u0026rdquo; That is totally okay to do. Don\u0026rsquo;t panic. But be ready. And if you\u0026rsquo;re not ready, be okay to say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not ready right now\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m so sorry, I\u0026rsquo;m in the middle of something.\u0026rdquo;\nI think that would be my biggest advice: it\u0026rsquo;s okay to say \u0026ldquo;not now.\u0026rdquo;\nThe other one would be, when you\u0026rsquo;re in the interview or group assessment, particularly group assessment: you\u0026rsquo;ve got to contribute. That was the number one thing that used to always get people screened out—that they wouldn\u0026rsquo;t contribute.\nWhat we want to see in a group assessment is your input, insight and ideas. Whether they\u0026rsquo;re right or wrong doesn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily matter, because you aren\u0026rsquo;t being assessed on technical skills. It\u0026rsquo;s more about behaviour and teamwork. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to collaborate and contribute. That was the number one issue.\nA tip on that one: if you had someone who was really dominant in your group—and that will also happen in life, when you\u0026rsquo;re coming into a team or you go to a client meeting, there\u0026rsquo;s always someone who\u0026rsquo;s a little bit more dominant or a little bit more vocal in putting forward—you deal with that. It might be saying, \u0026ldquo;Hey, look, that was a really great suggestion, James. Thanks for leading that discussion.\u0026rdquo; You can still contribute in ways. Think about things such as input, counteraction, or recognition in a group. All of those things are considered collaboration and contribution.\nThe final one is to be prepared for interviews. Practise. I can\u0026rsquo;t emphasise this enough. Sit down and practise interviewing, talking about yourself and drawing on examples from your life, work, university or sport to reflect what you\u0026rsquo;ve done and how you\u0026rsquo;ve developed particular skills or attributes.\nResearch the company as well. We still get people saying, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know what you do. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure exactly what the company does or what its different brands are.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;ll get an invitation in your diary or advance notice of an interview. Be prepared to talk and show what you know about the company.\nJames: Certainly the preparation is great. And I think even with the resume, tailoring it to the company, it\u0026rsquo;s important to understand if you\u0026rsquo;re getting to that stage—what are the company\u0026rsquo;s values? You\u0026rsquo;ve got to show a little bit of interest.\nKerry: The thing I\u0026rsquo;m going to say is: I get so nervous in interviews. It\u0026rsquo;s a superficial environment, an interview. It\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;Please stand here for an hour and tell me how amazing you are.\u0026rdquo; We don\u0026rsquo;t do that every day. So nerves and feeling uncomfortable, I think, are all really normal feelings when you go into an interview.\nBut remember it\u0026rsquo;s also a two-way conversation. They\u0026rsquo;re there to say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, is this person someone I want to work with?\u0026rdquo; And ultimately it\u0026rsquo;s also an opportunity for you to determine, \u0026ldquo;Are these people I want to hang out with eight hours of my life every day?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s a two-way thing.\nI think spend some time in non-interview chat. That\u0026rsquo;s really important—that walk to the interview room, or when you log on for a virtual interview. Be comfortable to have some of those icebreaker discussions, things like, \u0026ldquo;Hey, how\u0026rsquo;s it going? How\u0026rsquo;s your week been? What\u0026rsquo;s been keeping you busy? Have you got anything planned for the Easter weekend?\u0026rdquo;\nAll of those are relationship-building conversation starters. That\u0026rsquo;s important whether you work in consulting or at a product company. Being able to converse with others and build rapport and relationships is essential. Don\u0026rsquo;t underestimate the impact of small-talk conversation starters in an interview.\nTraits of Successful Graduates # James: Once a graduate has gone through this process and joined the company, what can they do to perform well and have a good experience? Are there particular traits you\u0026rsquo;ve seen in graduates who go on to thrive in that environment?\nKerry: That\u0026rsquo;s a really good question. My first tip—I literally last week had multiple conversations and I will have a few with our future hires, hopefully, who put up their hands—would be: be kind to yourself.\nI think you put so much pressure on yourself to perform well and do really well, and you want to do really well. But being kind to yourself, don\u0026rsquo;t put too much pressure. It\u0026rsquo;s going to be a really hard slog when you first start in a job. People tend to go really fast because you want to make a good impression and you want to build a reputation. You want to show that you\u0026rsquo;re great. So you go really hard.\nThings can\u0026rsquo;t keep going up on a trajectory like that. What happens if we keep going hard? You come down. Emotionally exhausted, physically exhausted. Our brain doesn\u0026rsquo;t work at the same level. So I think first up, be really kind to yourself.\nPeople who do really well recognise that it\u0026rsquo;s a learning experience. They understand that they\u0026rsquo;re there to learn, and they\u0026rsquo;re curious and open to it. They don\u0026rsquo;t expect to be sent straight to a client or into the back end of a production environment on day one. They understand that observing for a while is an important part of the process.\nCuriosity is the second one. Genuinely curious people ask, \u0026ldquo;Why do we do things like that? Is there a particular reason it happens this way?\u0026rdquo; A desire to understand is an important trait. It shows interest in others and helps build relationships and trust. Curious people tend to build relationships more quickly.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve said curiosity, said kindness to yourself—very important. I think the other one is openness to feedback. An actual willingness to go, \u0026ldquo;How can I be better?\u0026rdquo; That growth mindset, really. If you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about it, it\u0026rsquo;s going, \u0026ldquo;I want some feedback to understand how am I going. What am I doing well? What could I be doing differently?\u0026rdquo;\nThat can be really tricky. I think when you\u0026rsquo;re a grad, you open yourself up to feel vulnerable. \u0026ldquo;What if I\u0026rsquo;m not doing a good job?\u0026rdquo; But as a graduate or someone early in their career, your job is to learn from others. I think being open and comfortable with feedback is also a really important one. That will most likely build your level of comfort and safety in going, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s okay if I don\u0026rsquo;t know everything.\u0026rdquo;\nThe final one, particularly in a bigger company, is understanding what the journey looks like. What does good look like? Many places have amazing career paths already mapped out. At the associate level, they set out the attributes and capabilities that make someone good.\nHave a look at these, understand them, take some time to understand what does that mean. If it is showing a willingness to collaborate with others, spend some time to go, \u0026ldquo;Okay, what does that look like in real life? Does it mean I\u0026rsquo;m contributing in meetings? Does it mean that I offer to take the minutes?\u0026rdquo;\nAsk your manager, a people guide or HR to help you understand those attributes. A startup or small-to-medium company might not have those processes or frameworks in place, so sit down with someone and ask, \u0026ldquo;What does good look like? Who\u0026rsquo;s excellent, and what makes them awesome at this company?\u0026rdquo; Understand what you could be doing or demonstrating. That knowledge helps you set expectations for yourself.\nThose are probably my key points. The only other consideration is people who want to do everything. They want breadth without first developing depth.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s great—you can learn lots of different things—but as you progress throughout your career, at some point you\u0026rsquo;re going to have to be able to go deep in some topics. So be patient. You can absolutely learn lots of different things, but also recognise that going deeper in some particular topics or content or specialist areas is also really important as you progress throughout your career.\nJames: I totally agree. And I liked what you said there about a role model or someone that\u0026rsquo;s a few steps ahead—what are the things that they do well, and trying to model that. Because I think often it\u0026rsquo;s hard to find, well, it\u0026rsquo;s what you make in an organisation. The people that are doing well probably have slightly different traits that they have. You can\u0026rsquo;t just Google how to succeed at this company. It\u0026rsquo;s a bit more complicated.\nSo I think something like that, where you\u0026rsquo;re saying, \u0026ldquo;Hey, this is someone who I really aspire to be like\u0026rdquo; or someone that\u0026rsquo;s in the role that I\u0026rsquo;m aspiring to have—what are the things that they do? And really trying to improve those skills. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a great way of doing it.\nKerry: That\u0026rsquo;s right. Think about how you learn best as well.\nWe create individualised learning plans at Mantle Group for our graduates. One person—I won\u0026rsquo;t name them—wants to become more comfortable around clients. Within their learning plan, we\u0026rsquo;ve identified three people in their brand who excel at the client side, such as leading stand-ups. They\u0026rsquo;re going to shadow each person for a week because they\u0026rsquo;re an observational learner. They learn by watching and will then emulate it.\nDoing that will bring far more richness to their learning and give them the opportunity to become good with clients, rather than making them read a book or take a course on great customer service.\nI think being able to recognise where someone\u0026rsquo;s really good and go and shadow, or go and sit down and go, \u0026ldquo;How did you deal with that? Why is that important? Why did you do that with the client? Why did you talk to them that way? Why did you present it that way?\u0026rdquo; That will bring you absolute practical experience.\nWhat would Kerry change about Graduate Programs? # James: I think what you guys are doing with personal learning plans is really cool.\nI\u0026rsquo;d love to ask as well, you\u0026rsquo;re someone that\u0026rsquo;s quite innovative in the HR space and trying to do things a bit differently. What are some things that you\u0026rsquo;d like to see change, or what direction would you like us to head in with this? Is there anything you\u0026rsquo;d like to see change with respect to grad programs?\nKerry: Oh, gosh, how much time have we got? For me, it starts with recognising that they\u0026rsquo;re adults. Sometimes we forget that. When students finish, they\u0026rsquo;ve probably been legal adults for three or four years; they turned 18 when they joined university.\nBut sometimes we forget and remove their autonomy or opportunity to behave like adults by labelling them as graduates and bringing them in as such. We take away their right to contribute to their own development.\nI think it would be to take a moment and reflect on all the richness and diversity that people bring into a role. Studies is just one pathway into a career. Perhaps people have been working through it and they\u0026rsquo;ve developed and enhanced all these amazing skills. Perhaps they\u0026rsquo;re self-taught. The rise of online learning has contributed to a wealth of information that people have acquired by themselves, not through traditional educational pathways.\nSo I think it would be to recognise that they are adults and provide them the opportunity to contribute to that as well.\nI think the second one would be, don\u0026rsquo;t just think about pigeonholing—think about opportunities. Is there an opportunity to expand out of that? You might\u0026rsquo;ve studied commerce at uni and majored in accounting. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean that you can only be an accountant. What are some of the skills that accountants bring? Things such as attention to detail, ability to problem solve. So look at the skills behind a course, rather than label the person to what they studied. I think that would be a really great one.\nThe US does something brilliantly: you don\u0026rsquo;t get recruited by your degree. You\u0026rsquo;ve studied something, and employers look at it differently. I wish we\u0026rsquo;d moved on from recruiting by degree, but we still tend to do it here in Australia.\nThe other change would be to focus on building human skills. I don\u0026rsquo;t like the term \u0026ldquo;soft skills\u0026rdquo;. Put much more emphasis on human skills, because they enable someone to be successful.\nThroughout my career, when sitting at the table discussing promotions and salary reviews, I\u0026rsquo;ve never heard anyone say, \u0026ldquo;James studied at the University of Melbourne, so he should get promoted.\u0026rdquo; No one talks about that. Once you\u0026rsquo;re in a job, decisions are based on how you\u0026rsquo;re performing and whether you\u0026rsquo;re aligned with the way the company works, its culture and its attributes.\nSo let\u0026rsquo;s focus on building those human skills that we then look at throughout someone\u0026rsquo;s career. Really talk about them early in the career, enable them to be grown and harnessed early, and then support them later.\nKerry\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: One question I ask every guest is: if you had to restart and go back to when you were first starting out, what would you do differently or tell yourself? Given your experience with so many graduates, you can take this in a different direction if you\u0026rsquo;d like.\nKerry: I so know this. And I know it because I\u0026rsquo;ve changed careers myself multiple times. It can feel really overwhelming when you start something. Our education system is designed to go: primary school, high school, university, job. And so if you don\u0026rsquo;t follow that pathway, you go, \u0026ldquo;I must\u0026rsquo;ve done something wrong\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I haven\u0026rsquo;t succeeded to the point that I should have.\u0026rdquo;\nI experienced that myself. I finished my sport, went into nursing and realised I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to do nursing. What should I do? You can have a bit of an identity crisis around that.\nMy advice would be: it is okay to not know what you want to do. It is totally okay. Your life is not over—your life is just beginning. You\u0026rsquo;re just at a fork in the road where you need to choose. So I would say be okay if you don\u0026rsquo;t know.\nAlso, if you go into a role or company and it doesn\u0026rsquo;t feel right—if you\u0026rsquo;re not being your best self—don\u0026rsquo;t stay. If you\u0026rsquo;re giving eight, nine or sometimes 10 hours of your life to a company, you want to enjoy being there. You want to say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really excited to get up for work today. I\u0026rsquo;m excited to spend time with my colleagues.\u0026rdquo;\nAnd if you don\u0026rsquo;t feel like that, just take a moment to pause and say, \u0026ldquo;Why not? Where am I not feeling fulfilled? Is there something about the role? Is there something about the way that their culture works?\u0026rdquo; And if you don\u0026rsquo;t like it, don\u0026rsquo;t stay. It\u0026rsquo;s too many hours of your life to spend somewhere where you\u0026rsquo;re not getting fulfilled.\nJames: Totally. Especially when you\u0026rsquo;re young, that\u0026rsquo;s the time to take some risks, go out and find that thing that you really want to do. I think it\u0026rsquo;s so important that you don\u0026rsquo;t stay somewhere that you can\u0026rsquo;t see yourself for at least some length of time. If you can\u0026rsquo;t see yourself there, then it\u0026rsquo;s time to decide and take that leap and go do something else.\nKerry: Exactly. There\u0026rsquo;s an old adage—I\u0026rsquo;m not going to cite it correctly—about how you can have friends for a reason, a season or a lifetime. Maybe careers are the same. Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ve got to do a job for a reason, perhaps because you need some money or you\u0026rsquo;ve just graduated and are going for whatever you can.\nMaybe it\u0026rsquo;s seasonal: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do this for three to five years to work out what my next step is or where I want to go next.\u0026rdquo;\nOr maybe you\u0026rsquo;re fortunate enough to work it out early on. That\u0026rsquo;s your vocation: you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about it, and it\u0026rsquo;s what you want to do.\nAll of those things are okay. That\u0026rsquo;s important to know. If things aren\u0026rsquo;t as you want them to be right now, or they feel hard, that\u0026rsquo;s okay. Focus on what you love, talk to people, build your networks and start moving towards a place where you\u0026rsquo;re happy and can be your best self.\nContact Kerry # James: Thanks so much for chatting today, Kerry. It\u0026rsquo;s been really interesting to hear your experiences and about this whole grad process. Thanks so much for your time today. If people want to find out more about yourself, if they want to connect with you further, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place for them to do that?\nKerry: I\u0026rsquo;d love to. But first I want to say thank you so much for inviting me on, James. I\u0026rsquo;ve really loved our chat. If people want to chat, they are so welcome to send me a message on LinkedIn, or they can send an email to me at Mantle Group. It\u0026rsquo;s just kerry.callenbach@mantlegroup.com.au.\nJames: Fantastic. I\u0026rsquo;ll leave your details in the show notes, wherever people are watching, so they can find out more about yourself. But thanks so much for coming on today, Kerry, and all the best with everything that\u0026rsquo;s going on at Mantle Group. It\u0026rsquo;s really exciting what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, and I hope that this year and things continue to go well.\nKerry: Thanks so much, James. Appreciate it again.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways, the things that I learned from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode, straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 27\n","date":"25 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/27-kerry-callenbach/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 27\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Finding and Thriving in Your Dream Graduate Role with Kerry Callenbach","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #26 of Graduate Theory. Venture Capital is an interesting place to work, one that you don\u0026rsquo;t usually expect young guns to be operating. This week, we uncover what it takes to work in VC and how you can set yourself up for success.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t miss the newsletter, subscribe now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nAbhi Maran is an Investment Analyst @ Folklore Ventures. Out of hours, he is Co-Founder of Web3 group called DAO Under, Co-Founder of Brown Baddies - an NFT collection representing South Asian women in the Metaverse and Writer at Superfluid - tech newsletter focused on web3 and DeepTech.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Write About Topics You Enjoy # One of the big mistakes people make when starting to write and learn in public is that they write about something they feel they \u0026lsquo;should\u0026rsquo; write about, rather than things they are actually interested in.\nAbhi shared with us that this particular point is something he thinks is really important.\nI always say like do things that you like doing. So if you really like writing about or talking about something, then just do that because it will make it easier to stick to that consistent schedule and you\u0026rsquo;re more likely to follow it through\nPick something you like, and follow through.\nThe Vertical in VC (and how to be the best) # When we spoke to Abhi, I asked him about what skills he thought were important to have as a VC and what he was doing to upskill himself in these areas.\nHe said that VC has three main verticals.\nVC has verticals to your skillset, like the community building side, the public facing side, there\u0026rsquo;s also the investment thinking side\nThe investment side includes working out what is actually a good investment and being good with the numbers. For this vertical, Abhi likes to read about other people\u0026rsquo;s investment decisions and try to learn about the mental models involved in these decisions.\nPublic presence is all about building up your social profile. This helps VCs find out more about the industry and get better access to deals. Abhi says a lot of it is just doing stuff and trying stuff out. He\u0026rsquo;s doing this by being active on LinkedIn and Twitter while keeping up with his newsletter.\nCommunity building is the final vertical. Being accessible to founders you are working with is important so that you can help them to grow their businesses. A win-win situation. Abhi is improving this by improving his abilities to give feedback, and always learning about different industries and processes to provide unique insights.\nThe main thing about each of these is that there is no one course you can do, no one place you can find all your answers. Practice in the real world is what is important.\nExperiment # Your early career should be all about experimentation and trying new things to work out those few things that you enjoy and can get paid for.\nAbhi had this to say when reflecting on his own career 👇\nFor my career, I think what I should have done back then is probably talk to a lot of people in the ecosystem and figure out ways to get involved. Even if it didn\u0026rsquo;t seem like I\u0026rsquo;d be able to get involved from the outside, I should have been a bit more proactive, I think.\nGet out there and start experimenting, get the breadth of experience necessary to help you find and succeed in something truly special.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Abhi # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/abhishekmaran/\nNewsletter - https://abhim.substack.com/\nDAO Under - https://twitter.com/dao_under\nEmail - abhi at folklore dot vc\n📝 Content Timestamps # 00:00 Intro 00:55 Abhi\u0026rsquo;s University Experience 07:32 What different strategies do VC funds have? 10:40 The difference startup experience makes as a VC 13:06 Skills You Need to Be a VC in Australia 18:03 How does Abhi upskill himself as a VC 21:14 What is Deep Tech? 23:05 Where does Abhi go to learn about new technologies? 24:18 What is Abhi\u0026rsquo;s advice for people thinking about learning in public? 26:56 Abhi on DAO Under 30:59 Where does DAO Meet Community? 33:48 Advice for people discovering web3? 37:34 Who does Abhi look up to? 39:17 Abhi\u0026rsquo;s advice for Graduates 42:23 Where to connect with Abhi 43:24 Outro\n","date":"18 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/26-abhi-maran/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #26 of Graduate Theory. Venture Capital is an interesting place to work, one that you don’t usually expect young guns to be operating. This week, we uncover what it takes to work in VC and how you can set yourself up for success.\n","title":"On Making a Career in Venture Capital with Abhi Maran","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 26\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nAbhi: I think that\u0026rsquo;s super important, and it\u0026rsquo;s a lifelong journey: always reading, finding people\u0026rsquo;s perspectives, challenging those perspectives and challenging your own as well.\nJames: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is an investment analyst at Folklore Ventures, and out of hours he\u0026rsquo;s a co-founder of Web3 group called DAO Under. He\u0026rsquo;s the co-founder of Brown Baddies, which is an NFT collection representing South Asian women in the metaverse, and he\u0026rsquo;s also a writer at Super Fluid, which is his tech newsletter focused on Web3 and deep tech.\nPlease welcome to the show, Abhi.\nAbhi: Thanks, James.\nJames: Thanks so much for coming on the show today, man. I\u0026rsquo;m excited to dive into your experience.\nAbhi\u0026rsquo;s University Experience # James: I\u0026rsquo;m excited to explore your university experience, what happened afterwards and all the interesting things you\u0026rsquo;re working on outside your job. What did you study when you first started at Deakin University, and what was your process as you went through your degree?\nAbhi: Firstly, thanks for having me. It\u0026rsquo;s an absolute privilege to be on your podcast. I\u0026rsquo;m a massive fan of your work, and it\u0026rsquo;s awesome to see what you\u0026rsquo;ll do in the future. Hopefully I can play a small part in that. I started university in 2015 with a Bachelor of Actuarial Studies. I did that for a couple of years but became bored by it. It was statistics-heavy and, even though I loved maths, always felt an arm\u0026rsquo;s length away from practical applications. I ended up dropping that and sticking with my applied finance degree, graduating in mid-2018.\nWhile I was at uni, I ran a small tutoring company, was president of the student society, and did a few leadership things here and there. But I\u0026rsquo;d always had an entrepreneurial itch. Even from when I was a kid, I did the paper run when I was 10 or something like that, and I saved up and invested that money into Macquarie Group shares. I was always into investing and starting random side businesses.\nStraight out of university, I wanted to get into startups, but in mid-2018 the Australian startup ecosystem was underdeveloped from an entry-level perspective. There were senior roles and roles for people who had been in the ecosystem for a couple of years, but it felt harder for someone coming straight from university to get in.\nI went down the corporate route for a couple of years, working for Cambridge Associates with institutional investors—super funds, family offices, endowments and foundations—to structure their portfolios. These portfolios had anywhere from $100 million to about $2–3 billion in assets under management, invested across all asset classes. While I was there, I learnt much more about the funds management industry and asset management as a whole. One of my favourite parts of the role was meeting different fund managers and understanding how they saw the world.\nThe VC managers were always especially interesting. That\u0026rsquo;s where I met my current boss, Alec Cameron. He came to Cambridge when I\u0026rsquo;d only just started and pitched Tenacious Partners, which was the fund\u0026rsquo;s name before Folklore.\nI liked what he had to say, but unfortunately we didn\u0026rsquo;t invest in the fund. That was something I disliked about the role: we\u0026rsquo;d meet many people but make few investments. They were pursuing interesting strategies, but if you tried something new and it didn\u0026rsquo;t work, you were almost penalised. Coming from an entrepreneurial background, I didn\u0026rsquo;t appreciate that mindset. I did the job for two and a half years, became disillusioned with it and left at the start of 2021.\nJust before I quit, I spoke to about 30 startup founders to see if they had a role, because the startup ecosystem was now more developed and easier to enter. Before taking that route, I had interviewed with Folklore for an investment associate role. Their feedback was: you\u0026rsquo;re really enthusiastic about this, you understand VC, but you don\u0026rsquo;t have startup experience. Find a way to get it, and we\u0026rsquo;d love to have you as part of the Folklore team. That spurred me to meet these founders, talk to them and understand what I could potentially do for them.\nI talked to 30 people. Some conversations were exploratory, helping me understand where I might fit in the ecosystem. Others were targeted: I really wanted to work for that particular company. One was UpsTrade, an early-stage fintech business based in Sydney. It works like cash rewards, but instead of cash back, each purchase earns shares in the business you bought from. For example, if you shop at Woolies, you get a percentage of your order back in Woolworths stock. It\u0026rsquo;s a novel way to get onto the investing ladder.\nIt helps people become more financially literate, which is close to my heart. Being in control of your finances is important, and I saw this as one way to help. I worked there in a wide-ranging role, doing everything from product to B2B sales. I was there for about five months when the Folklore team reached out and said, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;ve got a more entry-level role in VC if you\u0026rsquo;re keen.\u0026rdquo; That was the investment analyst position.\nI jumped at it, since working in VC had been my goal for a while. I joined in mid-June 2021 and have been part of Folklore for 10 months. We\u0026rsquo;re an early-stage VC investor that invests for the long run. Our team has about 18 people—eight investors and 10 operators.\nWe really love to partner with businesses early and partner with them for the long run, supporting them with whatever they need. We\u0026rsquo;ve got a portfolio of about 18 companies now and we\u0026rsquo;re looking to deploy our third fund, which is a pretty exciting time. We\u0026rsquo;ve made a fair few investments out of that recently, and I\u0026rsquo;ve been involved in that process. It\u0026rsquo;s been an awesome start to my career in VC. That\u0026rsquo;s where we are today.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s an extensive background. It was good to hear about everything you\u0026rsquo;re doing. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a lot of questions, starting broadly with the VC space.\nWhat different strategies do VC funds have? # James: You answered part of this already: Folklore invests at a very early stage for the long run. What alternative strategies might a VC firm have?\nAbhi: There are quite a few strategies. We like to partner very early, sometimes at the ideation stage, and support entrepreneurs in their goals. Other firms operate at later stages, perhaps from Series B onwards, as later-stage or growth-equity investors.\nThey\u0026rsquo;ve probably got bigger fund sizes, can deploy a lot more capital, but are more risk-averse. They don\u0026rsquo;t play in the early stages where it\u0026rsquo;s a lot more risky. That\u0026rsquo;s one strategy. Another strategy is spreading your bets really wide and investing in a lot of startups. As I said, we\u0026rsquo;ve got 18 companies in our portfolio.\nOur funds tend to be fairly concentrated, but we take pretty hefty bets in all of our companies. We have high conviction—these are the right companies to back. Other funds might spread their bets, invest in 30 to 50 to maybe a hundred companies in their portfolios. Those funds go for an optionality strategy.\nThey do a small investment at the start and then try and follow on in subsequent rounds to maintain their ownership stake or scale it up as the startup starts hitting milestones and things like that. Then some funds are just pure investment funds. They\u0026rsquo;ll just have investors in their team.\nOthers, like Folklore, have more of a service model and a large operations team to support startups. For example, our head of people and culture helps early-stage startups establish their HR systems and programs while also looking after our internal systems. It\u0026rsquo;s a valuable service we can give our startups.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve also got a financial controller, a head of growth, and community and marketing associates. These talented specialists are there to support our portfolio companies with whatever they need, while also helping internally.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know about the operations side of VC firms. I thought it was mostly investing and moving on, but it\u0026rsquo;s good to hear that there\u0026rsquo;s collaboration as well.\nAbhi: VC is undergoing an interesting shift towards this full-service model. People without an investing background should consider the other parts of VC that might interest them. It\u0026rsquo;s a semi-consulting style of work, because you\u0026rsquo;re working with different portfolio companies while also supporting your main company.\nI think those are all really interesting roles where you get a bit of variety, but also a lot of stability that you might not find at a startup that\u0026rsquo;s continually growing. Those are all really amazing roles and they\u0026rsquo;re all super high-impact as well.\nThe difference startup experience makes as a VC # James: When you applied for your current position, they said, \u0026ldquo;You don\u0026rsquo;t have startup experience. That would be helpful in this role.\u0026rdquo; Now that you have it, can you see the difference between someone with that experience and someone without it?\nAbhi: It\u0026rsquo;s a good question. There\u0026rsquo;s some debate about whether startup experience makes you a better investor. I don\u0026rsquo;t know the answer, but my experience at UpsTrade has helped from an empathy perspective. I can understand the struggles an early-stage founder faces. Seeing the approaches taken to product management and B2B sales also provided insights that help when deciding whether to back a company.\nFor example, at UpsTrade, some sales cycles were very long because we were bringing large companies onto the platform. It gave me first-hand experience of the uphill battle a startup faces when dealing with them. They won\u0026rsquo;t simply sign a contract and help you do whatever you want. You have to sell to them for three, four or five months, and getting them over the line can be arduous. The outcome is valuable, but reaching it is tough.\nWhen portfolio companies face the same struggle, I can suggest approaches. When looking at a new company, I can better understand the uncertainties in its business: who is the core customer, and what will the sales cycle look like? Working at a startup gave me insights that help me analyse other businesses and assist our portfolio companies or anyone else in the ecosystem.\nWe do office hours. People come up and say: \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m really struggling with this.\u0026rdquo; And they\u0026rsquo;re not portfolio companies. They\u0026rsquo;re just founders out in the wild. We just like to help wherever possible. It\u0026rsquo;s come in handy a few times, which is surprising, but it was a good experience for me to go through.\nSkills You Need to Be a VC in Australia # James: That\u0026rsquo;s good to hear that it was well worth it. I think you\u0026rsquo;ve got some application out of it. I\u0026rsquo;m curious to extend that question and say: that was a really great experience. What other traits and skills do you think would really benefit someone going into VC in these kinds of roles that would be nice to have or essential perhaps?\nAbhi: I think what people don\u0026rsquo;t realise is that being a VC is like a sales role. You\u0026rsquo;re prospecting for companies, you\u0026rsquo;re nurturing leads. It\u0026rsquo;s very sales-focused. You have to sell the firm that you\u0026rsquo;re working at. Whenever I\u0026rsquo;m talking to founders, we sell ourselves as really good investors.\nMy sales pitch is pretty similar to what I said before. We\u0026rsquo;ve got 18 companies. We love partnering with companies really early on. That\u0026rsquo;s my pitch to founders, and I think that\u0026rsquo;s a pretty compelling offering. But you have to talk to a lot of people. Not everyone will want that. It\u0026rsquo;s talking to a lot of people, and I think people in sales roles would probably do pretty well in VC. If you\u0026rsquo;ve got a bit of investing knowledge or nous, that definitely helps. I think that\u0026rsquo;s one thing that people probably miss about being in VC.\nEspecially if you\u0026rsquo;re not at one of the brand-name VCs, then it\u0026rsquo;s even harder to get people to come and take your money. Being a really good salesperson is super important. I think another thing that people don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily think of is probably just building a public presence and being super accessible for people to come up to you and ask you for help.\nYou have to be really accessible to people. And I was like: \u0026ldquo;What does that mean?\u0026rdquo; It means you\u0026rsquo;ve got to have a public presence. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to write in public, you\u0026rsquo;ve got to tweet, you\u0026rsquo;ve got to talk to people, just be at events and things like that.\nIt can get a bit overwhelming if you\u0026rsquo;re a private person. I was a pretty private person before all of this, but I\u0026rsquo;ve had to push that away and embrace being in public and being super accessible for literally anyone to get in contact with me and ask me stuff, or pick my brain about something, or even just approach me to brainstorm stuff. Being accessible is super important as a VC. You want to be as embedded in the ecosystem as possible. I think that\u0026rsquo;s something that can be done without being a VC as well. You can talk to people on LinkedIn, on Twitter, or wherever it is.\nYou can go to events, you can build your own name in the ecosystem. I think that\u0026rsquo;s something that people can get started with literally today, if they go to the next event or even if they start tweeting about stuff. To be honest, that\u0026rsquo;s a really easy, low-barrier way to get into the startup ecosystem.\nBesides that, maybe more on the investing side, is just constructing your own investment thesis and thinking critically about companies—either ones that have raised or haven\u0026rsquo;t raised. Do your own digging. Use Crunchbase to find up-and-coming startups in Australia and think about: what\u0026rsquo;s going well for this business? Where could it go, and where could it fail?\nIt\u0026rsquo;s even better if you DM the founder and just be like: \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;d really love to chat about your business for 30 minutes.\u0026rdquo; Then you get the first-hand input, and then you can construct your own investment memo. It\u0026rsquo;s even better if you publish that publicly. If you\u0026rsquo;ve got a pretty robust memo, publish that publicly and that\u0026rsquo;s the start of your content journey as well.\nI think those are a few different things that people could implement today and get started if they\u0026rsquo;re interested in becoming an analyst at a VC fund.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s interesting. It\u0026rsquo;s good to hear that there\u0026rsquo;s plenty of things that you can do.\nJames: As you said, people can get involved through content creation, Twitter, events and other avenues. You can become quite involved in the ecosystem without working at a startup, if that makes sense.\nAbhi: There are many ways to get involved, so pick the ones you enjoy; those will stick over time. If you love meeting people, go to networking events, talk to people, be where founders congregate and get to know them personally and professionally. Don\u0026rsquo;t feel intimidated. Pick something that comes naturally and do it—that\u0026rsquo;s my usual advice.\nJames: Hopefully that makes it easier to decide what to do.\nHow does Abhi upskill himself as a VC # James: How do you approach upskilling in this environment? Of all the skills you need and already have, which do you most want to improve? Do you rely on experience, or do you seek external resources as well?\nAbhi: It\u0026rsquo;s a good question. As I said, VC has several skill-set verticals: community building, public presence and investment thinking. On the investment side, I love reading other people\u0026rsquo;s writing, identifying their mental models and applying them to the companies I meet. That\u0026rsquo;s important and is a lifelong journey: always reading, finding and challenging people\u0026rsquo;s perspectives, and challenging your own as well.\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s super important. On the public-presence side, much of it is about doing and trialling things. I always wanted to write, and I did a lot of it for my tutoring startup at university. I wrote blog posts about HSC topics and related subjects.\nBut this is a different style of writing. This is my opinion on something. With Super Fluid, what I do is try to unpack complicated things. Naturally, it\u0026rsquo;s got a Web3 tilt because that\u0026rsquo;s a really big interest of mine, but there\u0026rsquo;s also some deep tech stuff.\nAnd deep tech is something that I\u0026rsquo;m super new to, but I find really, really fascinating. I try to break down some of these really cool deep tech topics into digestible pieces for people. That\u0026rsquo;s me one, learning about something new, which fits in the investment column, but also two, writing about it, getting better clarity of thought, and then also building a public presence.\nThe community side—it\u0026rsquo;s me helping other founders with whatever they need or connecting different people to each other, just being present and accessible. That\u0026rsquo;s something that I\u0026rsquo;m also improving upon: how do I deliver feedback, or how can I get better at giving advice? Or where can I learn about something that would help someone else? That\u0026rsquo;s also a continuous journey. A lot of it is in reading and doing, I would say. You also need to talk to people, get their perspectives on things. There isn\u0026rsquo;t some course, I guess, that you could do, unless you did one for—let\u0026rsquo;s say if you wanted to be a better writer, you could do a course on that.\nOr if you wanted to get better at Twitter, I guess there\u0026rsquo;s courses closest to that. But a lot of it is self-driven, just a lot of reading. A lot of just thinking. I\u0026rsquo;ll just sit there and think about stuff, like where could this possibly go or what logically makes sense in terms of next steps for this industry, where the tailwinds are—just doing research like that, I guess, and just thinking about it.\nWhat is Deep Tech? # James: I\u0026rsquo;m curious about deep tech. What is it? This is the first I\u0026rsquo;ve heard of it. How is it different, and how does it connect with those other areas?\nAbhi: Deep tech is anything highly scientific or advanced. At face value, it can turn people off if they aren\u0026rsquo;t scientists themselves or particularly curious, but it\u0026rsquo;s really interesting. I\u0026rsquo;ve written about several deep-tech topics in the past, including longevity technology, which is very biomedical-specific.\nEffectively, what are the technologies that are pushing people to live longer and healthier lives? That was a really interesting deep dive. Another one was just about space tech and what\u0026rsquo;s happening there. There\u0026rsquo;s more to space than just sending rockets up into space to the moon or to Mars or whatever it is. There\u0026rsquo;s different subsets. There\u0026rsquo;s a whole bunch of stuff that\u0026rsquo;s intricate in that realm. Another one that I\u0026rsquo;ve written about is this thing called metamaterials. They\u0026rsquo;re effectively just taking existing materials that exist today, putting them in unique structures.\nAnd then that gives that end product unique properties. It was just different things like that, which are sometimes hard to believe, but people are attempting it and it\u0026rsquo;s something that\u0026rsquo;s really interesting to me as someone who\u0026rsquo;s really curious about this stuff. It\u0026rsquo;s fascinating to read. I read about all of this—it\u0026rsquo;s a bit like magic, I guess. But I think people get turned off by the deep tech moniker because it just sounds hard to understand. People just shut off. But for me, that\u0026rsquo;s when I start to get more interested in it, to be honest.\nWhere does Abhi go to learn about new technologies? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. I\u0026rsquo;m curious to know too—these trends that come up—where are the places that you go to have your finger on the pulse of the trending technologies and where the world is heading?\nAbhi: That\u0026rsquo;s a good one. Honestly, it\u0026rsquo;s reading other people\u0026rsquo;s substacks, listening to podcasts, reading news articles. The metamaterials one, for example—where I found that was listening to another podcast which featured one of the founders of Lux Capital, which is a deep tech VC over in the US. His name\u0026rsquo;s Josh Wolfe, and he\u0026rsquo;s an incredibly clear thinker, really good at explaining complex concepts. He was telling me about metamaterials in a really brief two-liner. And I was like: damn, that sounds super interesting. Let me do a deep dive into that, because 99% of people don\u0026rsquo;t even know what this thing is. I may as well write about it.\nOne, from my perspective, I\u0026rsquo;m learning about it, but then two, I can educate other people about it. That specific article—quite a few people have come up to me and said: \u0026ldquo;That was super interesting. I had no clue that this existed.\u0026rdquo; Which is cool as a writer for people to do that. But also, for me, if I learn about something, that\u0026rsquo;s always really good.\nWhat is Abhi\u0026rsquo;s advice for people thinking about learning in public? # James: Definitely. I think that\u0026rsquo;s super cool. What would you say to someone that\u0026rsquo;s thinking about doing something like that—being more public in the environment, posting things that they\u0026rsquo;re learning about, reading about? I was like that back in the day, where I was on the fence. It\u0026rsquo;s risky in some sense—what are people going to think? I\u0026rsquo;m going to have to really put myself out there to do this. What advice would you give? What would you say to someone that\u0026rsquo;s in that position?\nAbhi: It\u0026rsquo;s a good question. For me, I was semi-intimidated by it, but the fact that I\u0026rsquo;d done it before helped. Back then, it was in the context of building a business, which is completely different. In this case, I\u0026rsquo;m giving my opinion about things. To be honest with you, 99% of the reception has been super positive.\nI doubt people will call you out on LinkedIn for your opinion. They might have a friendly debate or pose a question, but they won\u0026rsquo;t say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re stupid; you\u0026rsquo;re wrong.\u0026rdquo; I have had negative feedback on one article, probably because I made the title a little clickbaity. It examined whether 10-minute grocery delivery services were sustainable and good for workers.\nSome people had really biased views on that. It just opens up a can of worms and a nice, healthy debate. But to be honest with you, I think a lot of people are just happy to read what you put out, happy to learn alongside you. I think the worst thing to do is obsess over the views.\nThose are always nice to have, but I think the best part about it is: if you can get something out of writing that article, that\u0026rsquo;s great. For the longevity tech one, I learnt a lot about longevity tech. I was able to distil it into a couple of thousand words, and that was me fleshing out a market landscape piece where I was like: okay, these are the different parts of the value chain. These are some interesting companies in that.\nNow, if I come across a longevity tech company, I can go back to my article, look at what I was reading before. Look at if there were competitors in the space, or if these guys are doing something interesting. I\u0026rsquo;m able to come up to speed with what they\u0026rsquo;re doing a lot quicker.\nIt helps from that perspective, if that makes sense. I always say: do things that you like doing. If you really like writing about or talking about something, then just do that, because it will make it easier to stick to that consistent schedule. And you\u0026rsquo;re more likely to follow it through.\nAbhi on DAO Under # James: I agree with that absolutely. I think that\u0026rsquo;s really important. One of the things that you\u0026rsquo;re really into as well is Web3, and it\u0026rsquo;s a space that, like you were saying, is trending tech. Web3 is one of the main trigger points of this space, one of the main things that\u0026rsquo;s going on.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re also involved with DAO Under outside of work. I\u0026rsquo;d love to hear its origin story, what it is more broadly and what you see it becoming in the future.\nAbhi: DAO Under started with my friend Jack and me chatting about crypto and Web3. We thought it would be awesome to do this with more people, so we reached out to 10 people who we thought would be interested.\nThey all said yes. We just joined this group where every Tuesday night at 8 PM, we would just talk about this stuff for an hour, two hours, something like that. We started this back in November. That snowballed and people would invite their friends or friends of friends and things like that.\nWe grew that group to about 50 people or so, and it was crazy. We were on Slack back then. We got to the Slack limit of 10,000 messages—got to that in two weeks\u0026rsquo; time. It was nuts. We had 80% weekly active users or something crazy.\nThat was really awesome. Over Christmas, what we were thinking about was: okay, how do we scale this up beyond just our friend group or our close circles? That\u0026rsquo;s where DAO Under was born—APAC\u0026rsquo;s first Web3 community where new entrants, builders, participants can all congregate and learn from each other and build together.\nWhy this came about was just because all the people in our initial group were like: this is amazing because everything happens in our time zone. This is something that I\u0026rsquo;ve seen for a long time, but it didn\u0026rsquo;t fully click that this was a huge pain point until a lot of people said it to me—that everything in Web3 or crypto usually happens in the US or in Europe.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s always 3 AM our time. Different calls or different events, always in the US. Australia and APAC more broadly is just always left out. We were like: okay, how do we bring that experience here, in our time zone, where we don\u0026rsquo;t have to sacrifice our sleep to get involved in this stuff?\nHow can we help each other build our own projects without having to go to the US? That\u0026rsquo;s effectively what we\u0026rsquo;re doing. We\u0026rsquo;ve deployed three or four projects and are incubating a couple more at the moment.\nEffectively, what that means is cross-pollinating teams with different talent. If an artist needs engineering talent, helping them there. If a dev needs artist talent, helping them there. We\u0026rsquo;re just building this community from the ground up. We\u0026rsquo;ve got about 250 people—260, I think—in the community.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve got 350 people on our waitlist. We\u0026rsquo;ve intentionally gated it for now, but hope to open it more broadly. That\u0026rsquo;s where we are today, but we have a bigger vision. At the end of the year, we want to deliver a four-day conference called Decade Down Under. Two days would feature panel speakers and builders talking about and showcasing their projects.\nThe other two days would be hackathons, bringing a hacker-style, Silicon Valley vibe to Sydney. It\u0026rsquo;s a big vision, but I think we have the team and resources to achieve it.\nWhere does DAO Meet Community? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s exciting. Where do you see the DAO—this decentralised autonomous organisation idea—where do you see the actual DAO side of things coming in and joining the community?\nAbhi: We\u0026rsquo;ve already kicked off at that. Within our community, we\u0026rsquo;ve got this thing called pods, so we\u0026rsquo;ve got an art pod, research pod, design pod, developer pod, marketing pod and a community pod. All six of these pods, what we\u0026rsquo;ve done is instituted pod leaders that put their hand up. Effectively what the pod leaders are going to do—or what they\u0026rsquo;ve already started doing—is getting people interested in those segments working on something. For example, we\u0026rsquo;ve let the design pod take over our initial design efforts. In terms of branding guidelines, our logo, what our collateral should look like, what our merch should look like.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re in charge now; we\u0026rsquo;ve handed control to them. That\u0026rsquo;s the first step towards decentralisation. My core team and I have built this, but how do we distribute duties to other people, let them run with it and allow the community to build what it wants?\nThey\u0026rsquo;re doing that. We\u0026rsquo;ve got a developer pod working on a decentralised jobs protocol and things like that. These are just ideas that have come out from the community as well. We\u0026rsquo;ve got a long list. Our research pod wants to start writing more about gamified different advances in this space.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve given them the ability to go into that. We\u0026rsquo;ve enabled them to do that by providing them the resources or connections wherever possible to go into that. That\u0026rsquo;s how we make this a bit more decentralised than it is now.\nI think some centralisation is not a bad thing. Otherwise nothing will likely get done. What we\u0026rsquo;ve seen with other DAOs in the space is they\u0026rsquo;re either not really that organised or they\u0026rsquo;re lacking a larger vision. I think there is always going to be a central nucleus, but what we\u0026rsquo;re hoping is we can get the community\u0026rsquo;s input into all of that.\nAs much as possible, we will hand over to the community and build together. That\u0026rsquo;s the goal, but we\u0026rsquo;re still fleshing it out. The right balance between decentralisation and centralisation is a big debate in my eyes. I don\u0026rsquo;t know the answer, but we\u0026rsquo;re very conscious of it and want to operate in a distributed fashion.\nAdvice for people discovering Web3? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s exciting. Let\u0026rsquo;s say someone is discovering Web3 and encountering all these communities, including yours and many others around the world. If you had to restart in Web3, which resources or subjects would you use to upskill as quickly as possible?\nAbhi: There\u0026rsquo;s a really good introductory Web3 guide from another DAO called Crypto Culture Society. If we break Web3 down into verticals, there are a few places to start.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s NFTs, DeFi, normal tokens as three main verticals, and maybe GameFi as a fourth vertical, but that\u0026rsquo;s under NFTs. NFTs might be the easiest one for people to wrap their heads around, just because it seems a bit more tangible than the others. I think that\u0026rsquo;s an easy one, or DeFi might be another easy one.\nIf you go through apps like Josh\u0026rsquo;s Minke app, which I think—Josh, you had Josh on the podcast a while ago. Things like that are easy ways to get involved and understand what\u0026rsquo;s going on in the ecosystem. But I think largely it\u0026rsquo;s just jumping in headfirst.\nAnd just reading different people\u0026rsquo;s threads, understanding who you should follow in the space, just reading different people\u0026rsquo;s writing is the easiest way to go about it. Talking to people in person as well is a really good way of learning. I think there\u0026rsquo;s only so much you can read, but if you talk to people in person or online—in Discord or wherever the community is based—I think that\u0026rsquo;s a really good way of getting involved and learning more about the space.\nI think it was all about practical application. If you read about NFTs, go and buy an NFT. If you read about DeFi, get stuck into a DeFi protocol and just stake a few tokens and things like that. You just have to give it a go. It seems pretty daunting, so do it with a little bit of money.\nUse an amount that can\u0026rsquo;t ruin you. That\u0026rsquo;s how I got started, probably in early 2017. I bought a little Ethereum, did some reading and read the white paper. It opened up a larger world and let me keep diving deeper down the rabbit hole.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s exciting. I like that, as Web3 matures, there are more places where people can get the lowdown and find simpler explanations than were available before.\nAbhi: For sure. This space is still finding product-market fit. Despite having been around for 10 years—even longer in Bitcoin\u0026rsquo;s case—it\u0026rsquo;s still incredibly early, maturing and growing.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s still really early on in its journey. Certainly, I don\u0026rsquo;t know where it\u0026rsquo;s going to be in six months\u0026rsquo; time. No one really knows. We\u0026rsquo;re all learning together. Hopefully it\u0026rsquo;s not too intimidating for someone to just come in. One of the good things I think about Web3 is everyone understands that.\nEveryone\u0026rsquo;s always enthusiastic to help more people get in. Just reach out to me or someone else that you see who\u0026rsquo;s posting about Web3 or talking about it. I\u0026rsquo;m always willing to help people get involved and find where they might fit within the whole ecosystem.\nAnyone in this space is always willing to help people learn, which is really awesome.\nWho does Abhi look up to? # James: Definitely. It\u0026rsquo;s nice to have that in the space for sure. I want to take this conversation to a bit more of a macro level of yourself and your career. I\u0026rsquo;m curious to hear—as someone that\u0026rsquo;s in VC and in all these different areas—are there any people that you really look up to and say: that person does something well, I really admire them for this thing? Or someone that you really want to emulate, and what would be the reason why you look up to them?\nAbhi: That\u0026rsquo;s a good question. There are many people I look up to and have to thank for where I am today. One interesting example is Josh Wolfe, founder of Lux Capital. I found his writing ages ago.\nWhen I was at university, I was fascinated by him as a person. His writing is exceptionally clear; I wish mine were even 1% as clear. The way he speaks on podcasts and in presentations is also incredible.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s just got a high level of clarity in his own mind. He\u0026rsquo;s also a really forward-thinking person. Some of the stuff that Lux do is just incredible. They incubate sometimes some deep tech companies, they back really amazing companies. That\u0026rsquo;s always just fascinated me.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s been at the forefront of all of that. He\u0026rsquo;s someone that really inspires me. Hopefully I can meet him one day, but who knows?\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s nice to have people like that. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting that he\u0026rsquo;s been someone that you\u0026rsquo;ve looked up to for so long as well. That\u0026rsquo;s really cool.\nAbhi\u0026rsquo;s advice for Graduates # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned university and I\u0026rsquo;d love to wrap on a question that I ask all the guests, and you can take this wherever you\u0026rsquo;d like. Something I ask the guests is: if you had to wind back the clock to when you were just finishing uni and starting into the work world, what are things you know now that you wish you knew when you were at that stage?\nAbhi: I think I\u0026rsquo;d probably experiment a lot more with my career. I think what I should have done back then is probably talk to a lot of people in the ecosystem and figure out ways to get involved. Even if it didn\u0026rsquo;t seem like I\u0026rsquo;d be able to get involved from the outside, I should have been a bit more proactive, I think.\nI would also talk to people. I was daunted by how experienced everyone seemed and wondered who would talk to me. But they probably would have been kind enough to do so, and I should have tried.\nI think there\u0026rsquo;s a lot more opportunities for experimentation, and I say this from a privileged point of view as well. I think some uni students are really privileged in the fact that they still live at home. They don\u0026rsquo;t have to pay rent, they don\u0026rsquo;t have to pay for food.\nThose students can take riskier options in their careers. They can work at different startups for two- or three-month periods and intern at different places without worrying about securing a graduate job. But others aren\u0026rsquo;t as fortunate or privileged.\nFor them, it\u0026rsquo;s important to secure a graduate job initially and then use it to leverage other opportunities. Because companies are desperate for good talent, I think the following approach is becoming more accepted.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re able to negotiate with them your start date. Push your grad start date back six months or a year or something like that. In that time, go and experiment working for a startup, or go and experiment with doing something that you\u0026rsquo;ve always wanted to do. If that\u0026rsquo;s travelling all over the world, go and do that. If that\u0026rsquo;s starting your own business, go and do that. You\u0026rsquo;ve got a bit of security there in that grad job. You can always bring that forward. I\u0026rsquo;m fairly certain, if you just talk to people, they\u0026rsquo;re willing to help you out as much as possible.\nI should probably have talked to people and experimented much earlier in my career.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s great advice. Having a wide range of perspectives and views will help you decide what you want to do. It\u0026rsquo;s so important.\nAbhi: For sure. People are more open to it now, so why not make use of that opportunity? Talking to people and experimenting are important. If you\u0026rsquo;re unsure what you want to do, that\u0026rsquo;s the best way to discover what you don\u0026rsquo;t want and what you might want to do for the rest of your life.\nWhere to connect with Abhi # James: Definitely. I think that\u0026rsquo;s so important. Thanks for sharing that today. Where can people go to find out more about yourself and what you do?\nAbhi: You can find me on LinkedIn by searching my name, or on Twitter. I write Super Fluid on Substack at AbhiM.substack.com. You can find DAO Under on Twitter at @DAOUnder.\nYou can also find Brown Baddies on Twitter. For Folklore-related matters, you can book office hours with me on our website or email abhi@folklore.vc. I\u0026rsquo;m very happy to chat with anyone who reaches out.\nJames: Great. We\u0026rsquo;ll have all the links to all those places wherever you\u0026rsquo;re watching or listening to this show. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. It\u0026rsquo;s been really fascinating hearing from you and the things that you\u0026rsquo;re involved with. Thanks so much for your time today.\nAbhi: No worries. Thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways, the things that I learnt from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode, straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 26\n","date":"18 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/26-abhi-maran/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 26\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Making a Career in Venture Capital with Abhi Maran","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Read the full transcript → Hi all, today marks a special day for Graduate Theory, the 25th episode. It\u0026rsquo;s been nearly 6 months now of weekly content, many interviews conducted and many lessons learnt.\nToday\u0026rsquo;s episode is a little different to the ordinary. Today, I\u0026rsquo;ll be going through some of the things that I have learnt through speaking to many different people over the last few months. I\u0026rsquo;ve spoken to graduates, CEOs, thought leaders, and many more, each episode containing unique lessons. In this episode, I\u0026rsquo;m going to outline what I\u0026rsquo;ve learned, and add a bit of my personal touch along the way.\nThis is a summary of everything Graduate Theory so far (caution: long!).\nBefore we start, I also want to add a bit of a disclaimer. While, yes, we have spoken to 24 different people, the lessons in this post are subject to change (and likely will). I\u0026rsquo;m not perfect, and I don\u0026rsquo;t have a crystal ball of wisdom to get everything right. This post marks my current best attempt to uncover the principles that you need to follow to have a successful and fulfilling career.\nPS, if you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter to get emails like this every single week, do it now!\nSUBSCRIBE\nThe Five Keys 🔑 # I\u0026rsquo;m going to split this into five sections, each containing a significant lesson that is relevant for graduates.\nThese are 👇\nProactivity vs Reactivity\nTime Management\nNetworking\nTrusting Your Gut\nPersonal Branding\nI\u0026rsquo;m going to explain each of these in detail and use relevant context from interviews to drive the points home. After each, you\u0026rsquo;ll have some action items that you can take and use to create the career that you desire.\nProactivity vs Reactivity # Being proactive rather than reactive is the most important trait that I have picked up during the episodes. Proactive guests, proactive people, achieve so much more than those who are reactive.\nYou may have heard the saying \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re either growing or you\u0026rsquo;re dying\u0026rdquo;. This idea is similar to what this lesson is about.\n≝ Definition # According to the dictionary, to be proactive is to \u0026ldquo;Act in advance to deal with an expected change or difficulty\u0026rdquo;. To be reactive is to \u0026ldquo;Tend to be responsive or to react to a stimulus\u0026rdquo;.\nIn our careers, we can either be proactive or reactive. We can anticipate what is going on in the world around us, seek out solutions to problems, or we can wait until the problem has arrived and then deal with it.\nOne of the most important traits of people that have been on the show is that they do not wait for situations to happen before they take action. They are constantly looking for new opportunities, new career paths and new adventures.\nFor example, if they aren\u0026rsquo;t happy in a job, they won\u0026rsquo;t wait for permission before looking at alternatives. If they want to do something, they go out and do it.\nThey don\u0026rsquo;t stagnate, they progress.\nThis feeling runs much deeper than just actions people take, it becomes a mindset that people have. Proactive people have a genuine belief that they can go and get what they want, if you didn\u0026rsquo;t think this, you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t even try.\nHaving this growth mindset that you can go out and change your circumstances is critical to having a successful career.\n📣 Examples and Tips # Dan Brockwell # The first example from this in the podcast is from Dan Brockwell. We will talk about Dan a few times during this piece, and I believe he is one of the best young people in Australia to take lessons and advice from.\nOne piece of Dan\u0026rsquo;s advice is for people in the process of applying to startups and even companies more broadly. He says that most jobs are filled through referrals or ad hoc introductions, and the best way to get the job you want is to be proactive and get involved with the company you want to work for.\nIn our episode, he gave an example of when he did this.\nOriginally I was conceptualizing an app with friends, called \u0026ldquo;Friends With Deficits\u0026rdquo;, and we were trying to like track debts between friends in different currencies.\nWe did some competitor research and found this company called Tilt. I was like, damn, they\u0026rsquo;ve solved it. But they have an ambassador group, at UNSW. So I emailed the country manager in Australia. I was like, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;d love to join the ambassador group\u0026rdquo;. He\u0026rsquo;s like, yeah, sure, man. I opened up applications, joined the ambassador group, and did that for a couple of months.\nAnd then that converted into a growth internship with them leading an ambassador program with a couple of hundred students across Australia.\nWarwick Donaldson # The second example comes from Warwick Donaldson. Warwick used to work in the call centre at ANZ. He didn\u0026rsquo;t enjoy working there and wanted something more for himself. While he was working at ANZ, he would use the employee contact book and email employees in different areas across the bank.\nAnd so basically while I was there, what I did was every day I would get on the GAL, the global address list. And I would research people in ANZ that I thought were working in interesting departments and I\u0026rsquo;d send them emails and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m interested in what you do. I want to learn more. Do you have time to go and get coffee?\u0026rdquo;\nSo I found someone in treasury and he\u0026rsquo;s like, well, we\u0026rsquo;ve never had anyone reach out this is cool. Uh, we\u0026rsquo;re hiring a grad role as an analyst. Are you interested? I said, oh Yeah. Yeah, I did an interview and got my first, you know, \u0026ldquo;real\u0026rdquo; grad job.\n✍️ Actions # So, now you know what it means to be proactive rather than reactive, what steps can you take to become more proactive?\n(1) Understand Asymmetric Risks # In life we take risks.\nSometimes we make decisions that could end well or could end badly.\nPutting your money in the stock market is one example of such a situation.\nAsymmetric risk would be one where the probability of a positive outcome is the same as a negative one.\nAn asymmetric risk is one where the probability of a positive outcome is not the same as the negative.\nNetworking and creating connections are examples of asymmetric risk.\nLike the worst they can do is say \u0026rsquo;no\u0026rsquo;, The best they can do is say \u0026lsquo;yes\u0026rsquo;. And you ended up getting a job. There\u0026rsquo;s no downside, there are only upsides. It\u0026rsquo;s a pretty good risk to take If you want to call it a risk at all.\n(2) Understand What You Want # The second key to this working is that you must be clear on what it is you want to be proactive about. Dan had clarity in his desire for an internship, and Warwick had clarity in his desire for a role at ANZ.\nWhat do you want? If you ask for anything and get it, what would you ask for?\nWho could you ask today, to get closer to getting that? Unsplash\nTime Management # Time management is one of the most important skills that leaders must have today. With ever-increasing pressures on our time from meetings and social activities, knowing how to get things done effectively is extremely important.\nAs Adam Geha said in our episode\nIf you are not interested in the question of how to extract maximum from those 16 waking hours, in my view, you are not thinking straight and you\u0026rsquo;re frankly, you\u0026rsquo;re not even on the field in terms of a high-performance.\n≝ Definition # So, what is time management? According to Wikipedia:\nTime management is the process of planning and exercising conscious control of time spent on specific activities, especially to increase effectiveness, efficiency, and productivity.\nAs Adam said, we have 16 waking hours every day. To maximise what we can achieve and the experiences we can have, we must consider how to use these 16 hours most effectively.\n📣 Examples and Tips # Adam Geha # In the episode with Adam, he gave many examples of things he does to be more effective with his time. To be clear, Adam takes his time management extremely seriously and he has huge pressure on his time. These may not be necessary for you but are nonetheless interesting to see what a high performer like Adam does with his time.\ndon\u0026rsquo;t default to one-hour meetings\nhave a predefined wardrobe\nreverse your car in so you get out faster in the mornings\nbrush your teeth in the shower\nAdam says the following about using these techniques in the context of creativity. He says that people often mistake routines for hindering creativity.\nAdam spoke about how having routines to free up your mental bandwidth makes you more creative. He says not having a routine makes you less creative.\nSo if you\u0026rsquo;ve got tasks that are routine, you should have routines to deal with the routine tasks so that they don\u0026rsquo;t use RAM. You are going to get problems and tasks that are non-routine for which you need to consume genuine RAM.\nHis productivity hack is to complete routine tasks in a routine way.\nPenny Talalak # Penny is another very busy person. She also has tricks that she uses to get the most out of her time.\nsurround yourself with people who also have side hustles / are busy\nset your schedule\nuse a kanban board to track tasks\nbreak pieces of work down into small pieces\nplan your week in advance\nThese are all great tips, and relevant to my own experiences with time management and productivity.\n✍️ Actions # There are many steps you can take to improve your time management. There are powerful tips from Adam and Penny that, if used, will improve your output.\nSomeone else who knows a lot about time management is Cal Newport. He hasn\u0026rsquo;t been a guest on the show, but hopefully someday!\nHe has written several books about productivity, has a podcast on deep work and digital minimalism and is generally known as a productivity guru.\nI use my version of his productivity system, and I\u0026rsquo;m going to outline five of his unofficial seven baby steps below, taken from this podcast episode.\n(1) Time Block Plan # Every job needs time. Using your calendar, allocate time for each task that you need to complete. Try your best to follow this, but if you get knocked off the plan, just reset your calendar and build a new plan for the time remaining in the day.\nThis is what I spoke about in episode 10 of the podcast.\nInstead of using the to-do list, your actual implementation of the to-do list is your time. When you have that to-do list, you kind of like, well, yeah, like I\u0026rsquo;ll do this one usually by the end of the day. Maybe half or like this there\u0026rsquo;s always stuff left, you never finished the to-do list.\nAnd I think that process of even just planning my day deciding what to work on, brings a lot more clarity to what I\u0026rsquo;m supposed to be doing at certain times. I think that\u0026rsquo;s allowed me to get more done.\n(2) Task Boards # We need a place to keep track of tasks! Cal recommends that for each of your professional roles, you have a separate place to keep track of what you\u0026rsquo;re working on, what\u0026rsquo;s coming up, what\u0026rsquo;s blocked etc. You could use tools like Trello, Flow or Asana for this but the tool is not relevant, it is the concept that matters!\nI use Trello now to track my tasks. I keep notes inside each card and can add comments when the status of a task changes or needs updating.\n(3) Full Capture # At the end of each day, Cal suggests that we need a shutdown ritual. When you\u0026rsquo;re finished for the day, make sure that your tasks are all reviewed and that all the information for them is out of your head and onto the cards. You can sleep well knowing that the information you need won\u0026rsquo;t be ignored or forgotten.\nYou can place items that need to be captured in either your task board, your calendar or your email.\n(4) Weekly Plan # Now we\u0026rsquo;ve got our daily plans sorted, it\u0026rsquo;s time to consider our days in the context of our week. At the start of each week, look at your tasks and begin to schedule time in your calendar for when things need to be done.\n(5) Strategic Plan # Now we have our daily plan and our weekly plan, we add in the strategic plan. This is where we plan for long term goals. Perhaps it\u0026rsquo;s the things you need to do to get a promotion at work, or it\u0026rsquo;s your goals for the next quarter. I have a plan for the next quarter and some big goals of things I\u0026rsquo;d love to have achieved by then.\nOnce we have the strategic plan, we can look at this when we are doing our weekly plan. We see what our goals are for the quarter and then see how those map into what we are doing this week. This is a fantastic way of keeping yourself on track for those big goals.\nIf you aren\u0026rsquo;t already doing some of these, adding them to your week will significantly improve your productivity, as it has done to mine.\nNetworking # Networking is a dirty word! Joe Wehbe had this to say on networking\nNetworking can be a dirty word but it\u0026rsquo;s one I\u0026rsquo;m happy to use because every time I think about it, the way to do it most effectively is just at the end of the day, to become a better person.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s do it.\n≝ Definition # We define networking as the ability to connect with others. Someone good at networking is good at connecting with people and growing their network. Often networking is seen as something negative because growing your network can be done maliciously.\nAs we have already seen though, the best way to network is to be a genuinely good person.\n📣 Examples and Tips # Joe Wehbe # Joe is full of wisdom. When we spoke, he gave a great summary of Give and Take by Adam Grant. In this book, Grant outlines different archetypes of networkers, and which ones are most effective.\nSo takers are always what\u0026rsquo;s in it for me.\nSo that\u0026rsquo;s like there always has to be something in it for me, that\u0026rsquo;s obvious. For me to be willing to help.\nMatchers are like traders, has to be an even exchange of value in both directions. And obviously like pretty like at the same time.\nThird is givers and givers are like, all right here, I\u0026rsquo;ll come on the podcast or I\u0026rsquo;ll introduce you to this person without an obvious or tangible thing to come back.\nI think we\u0026rsquo;re all everyone\u0026rsquo;s benefit is linked to everyone else in the big picture.\nHaynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza # Haynes is an incredible guy. What he has achieved over the last few years is special, and he has great advice for reaching out to people.\nGiven his status, he often has people reach out to him. In our episode, he outlined two things that people can do to be more likely to get a response.\nYou have to be very careful about just cold emailing, cold reaching out to people and saying, can I pick your brain? Because folks are generally busy. And you have to be conscious of their time and their calendars. I think you\u0026rsquo;ve got to sort of structure that. I look for two things.\nOne is, is this person legitimate? If I say yes, will they take this seriously? And will they show up on time?\nAnd the second thing is, what is this person looking to get out of this. What do they mean by just picking my brain?\nSo I think when structuring this, be very clear on what it is you want to get out of it. I think you have to be sort of wary of people\u0026rsquo;s times.\n✍️ Actions # So, how can you be better at networking?\nSimilar to other points we\u0026rsquo;ve made on the show, don\u0026rsquo;t hesitate to reach out to people you find interesting. Like Warwick and Dan when they were being proactive, get out there and meet people that you want to meet. There is no risk in reaching out.\nSecondly, we want to reach out in a good way. Reaching out is great but our efforts will be wasted if we don\u0026rsquo;t do this effectively.\nAs Haynes mentioned, we want to be both conscious of the other person\u0026rsquo;s time, and clear on what we want to get out of our interaction.\nWhen I\u0026rsquo;m reaching out to guests for this podcast, I make sure I am clear on both of these things.\nThere are many different resources out there on the best ways to send emails to people, but one template that I use is this one from Dave Perell.\nDavid Perell\u0026rsquo;s podcast invite email from https://marketingexamples.com/ This email covers all the bases. Show interest, describe yourself and what you want to get out of this interaction.\nShort and sweet, but very effective.\nDan Brockwell also mentioned in his episode the following techniques when reaching out.\nMake sure you include:\nWho you are\nWhy you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s in it for them\nAnd use the following techniques\nprovide value (write a post, suggest an improvement to the business)\nclear ask (\u0026ldquo;would you be open to \u0026hellip;.\u0026rdquo;)\nThese combined will make sure you\u0026rsquo;ve given value to the person you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out to, and make them much more likely to respond.\nTrusting Your Gut # We all have that feeling, something deep within us knows what to do. Do we listen?\n≝ Definition # As Michael Gill (Gilly) said to us during his episode\nyou have three very important ways of knowing, and that\u0026rsquo;s your head, your heart and your gut. You got to keep them all in balance.\nThe gut is that feeling inside your stomach, telling you to do something. A big theme on the podcast has been that people are either grateful that they did listen to their gut, or they wish they listened sooner. I\u0026rsquo;m yet to have a guest who is thankful they didn\u0026rsquo;t listen to their gut.\nListen to your gut, and do what feels right.\n📣 Examples and Tips # Lidia Ranieri # The first example of this is from Lidia. Lidia was about to work in law until her gut kicked in and she decided that she\u0026rsquo;d like to try something else.\nIt was my first job out of university. I was working law firm and thought that I was going to pursue a career in law. And within three months, I was going home and I had that dead feeling. I knew I can\u0026rsquo;t do this. it, when I kind of told friends and family that I was, you know, you know, aborting that mission, they thought I was absolutely mad.\nIt was like, you can\u0026rsquo;t just finish the law degree. You\u0026rsquo;ve got a great job with a great firm You can\u0026rsquo;t do that. And I\u0026rsquo;m like, no, I, I am doing that. That is not the right direction for me.\nAndrew Akib # Andrew is now the CEO of Maslow, a disability and accessibility startup. His advice? The time will pass anyway, follow your gut as soon as you can!\nThe things that you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about doing, don\u0026rsquo;t just kick the can down the road and keep thinking about doing it. If there\u0026rsquo;s something that you are thinking about doing, just do it. Probably would\u0026rsquo;ve started Maslow a couple of years earlier. There\u0026rsquo;s no harm in just starting a new thing if that\u0026rsquo;s what you want to do because you\u0026rsquo;re either going to start it or you\u0026rsquo;re not. So you might as well start it\nMel Kettle # Mel gave some great advice to me about what to do when you have this feeling in your gut. How do you know when is the right time to take action on it?\nShe has a great rule of thumb for these serious problems. If it keeps her up for 3 nights in a row, it\u0026rsquo;s time to take action on that thing.\nIs your job not great and keeping you awake at night? If it\u0026rsquo;s three nights in a row, it\u0026rsquo;s time to quit.\nif it was three or more nights in a row, then that\u0026rsquo;s a really big warning sign for me that something\u0026rsquo;s not right in my life.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve used that three-night rule, with boyfriends, with jobs, with clients. And I just think it\u0026rsquo;s such, it\u0026rsquo;s your body\u0026rsquo;s way of saying to you things aren\u0026rsquo;t right and you need to listen.\n✍️ Actions # Following your gut is intuitive. We all know when we get that feeling that we should be doing something differently, or we should be taking a different path.\nThe actions you can take from this are to listen to your gut and follow Mel\u0026rsquo;s rule. If you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about something so much that you can\u0026rsquo;t fall asleep for three days in a row, it\u0026rsquo;s time to act. Do that thing, quit that position, whatever it might be.\nLike Gilly says, your gut is one of your three ways of knowing. It\u0026rsquo;s worth paying attention to.\nPersonal Branding # ≝ Definition # Personal branding is about creating an avenue for people to get to know you. We want to shift from being someone that watches what\u0026rsquo;s going on, to someone that is in the arena. Someone that is sharing their opinions and getting known among your chosen community.\n📣 Examples and Tips # Dan Brockwell # Wise man Dan is back. One of the great things about Dan is he practices what he preaches. He gave me great advice on the importance of a personal brand, and it\u0026rsquo;s advice that he uses to create his brand. Dan is one of the most popular guys on LinkedIn, and if you haven\u0026rsquo;t already joined his EarlyWork community, I highly recommend doing so.\nHere\u0026rsquo;s Dan on personal branding\nI think having an online personal brand just allows you to get your story out to people in a much more scalable way. It\u0026rsquo;s like you do the work once. And then so many people find out about who you are and, you know, there\u0026rsquo;s that old expression, it\u0026rsquo;s not what you know, it\u0026rsquo;s who you know, the modifying factor there is it\u0026rsquo;s, who knows you.\nAnd the even further modification is it\u0026rsquo;s who knows you for what? Having an online personal brand is just like taking extra shots on goal, right? It\u0026rsquo;s like, you know, you could be a striker in soccer. You might be a shitty striker. Having an online personal brand just means more people are going to find out about what you\u0026rsquo;re doing and just, you know, with enough shots, you get some goals.\nEric and Aiden # I spoke to Eric and Aiden about the importance of mental health in careers. They had some great things to say, and when we were wrapping up the conversation, they left me with some great advice for graduates regarding personal branding. They\u0026rsquo;d been working on their book \u0026ldquo;New Job Code\u0026rdquo; and felt that this was something they wish they had started earlier.\nWhen I was close to graduating, I had a mentor at the time, one that I sought out. [..] Some advice that he gave me that I took two years to act on, is to build something to create a visible identity or content or something that you can be proud of outside of your role, whatever it happens to be.\nAdam Ashton # Adam hosts a podcast called \u0026ldquo;What You Will Learn\u0026rdquo; and it\u0026rsquo;s all about books. Adam and his co-host (also called Adam) review books and give readers their summaries. It\u0026rsquo;s a great way to get started with books, and a great way to get information from them without reading them the whole way through.\nAdam shared a unique perspective of his podcast that I think is great for aspiring content creators to understand.\nI think the good middle step between consumption and creation is curation, which is kind of where we went with the podcast. It\u0026rsquo;s kind of like, okay, well we\u0026rsquo;re learning all this stuff. And then we\u0026rsquo;re going to try and share that with people as well. We\u0026rsquo;re going to try and break that down and make it a little bit simpler for other people who want to consume, but probably don\u0026rsquo;t have the time to read a book every single week.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t want to keep being a consumer? Too hard to be a creator? Start with curation.\n✍️ Actions # So what action can you take to start or improve your personal brand?\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t yet got a personal brand, it\u0026rsquo;s time to start thinking about what you could post that you feel comfortable with.\nSome questions you could ask yourself include:\nWhat am I interested in?\nWhat do I tell people about?\nWhat do people ask me for advice about?\nIf I was a YouTuber, what would my videos be about?\nIf I had a Substack/was a writer, what would I write about?\nRemember that everyone who has a public image now previously did not have one. My podcast 6 months ago did not exist. Things change and grow over time and you can do the same.\nStep out and share your abilities with the world!\nResources Mentioned # EarlyWork\nNew Job Code\nWhat You Will Learn\nGive And Take - Adam Grant\nGraduate Theory Youtube Channel\nGraduate Theory Episodes Mentioned # #1 — On Networking with Joe Wehbe #7 — On Purpose and High Performance with Lidia Ranieri #8 — On Purpose Driven Business with Andrew Akib #9 — On Mentoring and Mental Health #10 — On Graduate Theory #11 — On The Graduate Experience and Careers with Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza #12 — On Books and The Importance of Range with Adam Ashton #15 — On Startups, Corporate and Personal Branding with Dan Brockwell #16 — On Building a Long-Term Career with Michael Gill #18 — On Asymmetric Risks with Warwick Donaldson #19 — On Designing a Side Hustle with Penny Talalak #20 — On Time Management and Leadership with Adam Geha #24 — On Avoiding Career Traps and Burnout with Mel Kettle ","date":"11 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/25-the-quarter-century-review-with-james-fricker/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Read the full transcript → Hi all, today marks a special day for Graduate Theory, the 25th episode. It’s been nearly 6 months now of weekly content, many interviews conducted and many lessons learnt.\nToday’s episode is a little different to the ordinary. Today, I’ll be going through some of the things that I have learnt through speaking to many different people over the last few months. I’ve spoken to graduates, CEOs, thought leaders, and many more, each episode containing unique lessons. In this episode, I’m going to outline what I’ve learned, and add a bit of my personal touch along the way.\n","title":"The Quarter Century Review with James Fricker","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 25\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory.\nToday\u0026rsquo;s episode is a special episode. No guests on the show today. It\u0026rsquo;s me and you.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been nearly six months of weekly content. We\u0026rsquo;ve interviewed thought leaders, CEOs, and various other occupations from different industries. There\u0026rsquo;s now quite a collection of people and interviews that we\u0026rsquo;ve created here as part of the show. So I thought today, what better way to mark the 25th episode of Graduate Theory than to do a bit of a review.\nI want to go back and investigate what we\u0026rsquo;ve done over the last few episodes, what people we\u0026rsquo;ve spoken to, and what lessons we\u0026rsquo;ve gained from these people we\u0026rsquo;ve had on the show. People have mentioned different concepts in different episodes.\nI thought, can we collate a lot of these things, put them together and deliver them in one nice package for you, the listener? And that is what I aim to do in this episode. So in this episode, what we\u0026rsquo;re going to do is go through five of the key lessons that I\u0026rsquo;ve learned so far from Graduate Theory, and I\u0026rsquo;ve summarised them as best I can.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve got insights from different guests, different stories they\u0026rsquo;ve told along the way, and insights from my personal life and things I\u0026rsquo;m interested in to add some flavour and a unique take on some of these.\nBefore we get started today, I want to thank my pod crew—some of my friends that have been riding this wave along with me over the last six months. Joe Wehbe with the Withdrawal Wavy podcast, Luke Smith and Don Bullock and their podcast With the Chiefs, and Liam Hounsell as well, being massive support for myself over the last couple of months. I could not have got this far without you guys. Wanted to mention you all at the start, and without further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s dive into this.\nSo the five keys, the five lessons that I want to talk about today: we\u0026rsquo;ve got the first one, proactivity versus reactivity. Time management is the second one—how can we manage our time better? Networking as well—what is your general practice around networking and how can we be effective networkers? Trusting your gut—what is the importance of doing that? How can we do that better? What are the pros and cons of doing that as well? And finally, the fifth: personal branding. How can you brand yourself? How can you gain opportunities? What are the steps? What does it take to brand yourself?\nThese are the five things, and there\u0026rsquo;s been a lot of discussion on them across the episodes. Today we\u0026rsquo;re going to get into a summary, and I think this is going to be quite powerful for those of you listening. It was very interesting for myself when I was going through the content, trying to prepare this. There are some powerful lessons here and powerful anecdotes from guests as well. We\u0026rsquo;re going to explain these as best as we can, using the information that guests have provided to drive the points.\nSomething I\u0026rsquo;m really big on is, what are the actions that we\u0026rsquo;re going to take from this? What actions can I take and what things can I actually do? It\u0026rsquo;s nice to have these concepts, nice to have all the cool ideas, but what is the action that we\u0026rsquo;re going to take after this? That\u0026rsquo;s something Aaron Ngan says—let\u0026rsquo;s take some action on things. Everyone knows what to do, but no one actually does it. So I\u0026rsquo;m going to try and dissect these concepts and distil them down into things that you can actually do today and things that will make a measurable difference in your life.\nI\u0026rsquo;m excited to share this. There\u0026rsquo;s been a lot of time invested in this podcast so far, and it marks an important period, an important point in the podcast where I\u0026rsquo;m trying to summarise a lot of what\u0026rsquo;s been said. If you\u0026rsquo;re going to listen to any episode of the show, this is the one to listen to for sure.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s do it. Before we start, each of these points is going to be timestamped in the description of wherever you\u0026rsquo;re watching. You can go in there, and if you don\u0026rsquo;t want to listen to a certain part, you can use that timestamp to skip around or come back to it whenever you please.\nAlso before we get started, if you do enjoy this at any stage, it would make my day if you could leave us a review. If you\u0026rsquo;re on Spotify, that has reviews now. Apple has reviews. Either of those would be great. If you\u0026rsquo;re on YouTube, leave us a like, subscribe to the channel.\nOne of the best things you can do, folks, is subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter. It comes out every single week. The episode comes out, the newsletter comes out with it. It\u0026rsquo;s got my takeaways from the episode. I go through and curate the really important things that I learned, and you get that straight to your inbox. It almost saves you having to listen to the episodes. It\u0026rsquo;s quite good, and I do like the newsletter a lot. If you\u0026rsquo;re not already on there, I\u0026rsquo;d highly recommend it. Now, enough jabber, James. It\u0026rsquo;s time to get started.\nProactivity vs Reactivity # James: Proactivity versus reactivity—this is the first point, number one.\nBeing proactive rather than reactive is probably one of the most important traits that I picked up during the episode interviews. Proactive guests and proactive people achieve much more than those who wait for situations to occur before acting, versus those that act before they need to. This is a critical distinction.\nPeople say you\u0026rsquo;re either growing or you\u0026rsquo;re dying, and this is what we\u0026rsquo;re talking about here: proactivity versus reactivity. If you\u0026rsquo;re not proactive, then perhaps you\u0026rsquo;re not living your life to the fullest. As a framework for going through these, we\u0026rsquo;re going to cover a definition of what it is, an example of the trait, and then some actions to take, as I explained earlier.\nIf we\u0026rsquo;re going to define proactivity and reactivity, we\u0026rsquo;ve got some definitions from the dictionary. To be proactive is to act in advance to deal with an expected change or difficulty. In contrast, to be reactive is to tend to be responsive or to react to a stimulus.\nProactive: we\u0026rsquo;re acting before the expected change or difficulty. Reactive: we\u0026rsquo;re reacting as a response to this expected change or difficulty. This applies in our careers. We can anticipate what is going on in the world around us. We can seek out solutions to problems, or we can wait until the problem has arrived and deal with it.\nThis is one of the key concepts. Probably the most important thing that I\u0026rsquo;ve picked up from guests on the episode: they\u0026rsquo;re constantly looking for new opportunities, new career paths, new adventures, and new things to try their hand at, new things they could potentially be doing. If they\u0026rsquo;re not happy in a job, they won\u0026rsquo;t wait for permission before looking at alternatives. They don\u0026rsquo;t stagnate; they continue to progress.\nThis almost becomes a mindset that these people have. They have a genuine belief that they can go and get what they want. Because if you didn\u0026rsquo;t believe that, you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t even try to go out and get the things you wanted. It\u0026rsquo;s like that growth mindset idea where they believe they can improve, so they\u0026rsquo;re constantly looking for ways to test themselves.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s move on to the examples. What examples do we have from the episodes? The first is from Dan Brockwell. Dan is one of the most exciting guests that I had on the show. He\u0026rsquo;s very relevant to the audience. He\u0026rsquo;s just a fantastic plug. Dan\u0026rsquo;s advice was pivotal in the process of applying for startups and even companies more broadly. When we think about applying to companies, you typically have the job board that you can get a job through, and then there\u0026rsquo;s also referrals or ad hoc introductions—you\u0026rsquo;re a friend of a friend, you get into the company that way. That is a big part of it. I think 80% of jobs are filled through ad hoc introductions. It\u0026rsquo;s really important to look at.\nWhen I spoke to him, he said the following. I\u0026rsquo;m going to paraphrase what he said, but I\u0026rsquo;ve got the quote here.\nWhen he was in high school, he was conceptualising with friends an app called Friends with Deficits, and they were trying to track debts between friends in different currencies. They did some competitive research and found this company called Tilt. He saw they\u0026rsquo;d solved this problem, but they had an ambassador group at uni, at the University of New South Wales.\nThis is Dan—he\u0026rsquo;s now proactive. He\u0026rsquo;s seeing this problem, but instead he\u0026rsquo;s thinking, what is a way that I can turn this into a win? He emails the country manager in Australia and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;d love to join the ambassador group.\u0026rdquo; The country manager said, \u0026ldquo;Yeah, sure.\u0026rdquo; He joined the ambassador group, and Dan converted that into an internship where he was leading the ambassador programme with a couple hundred students across Australia.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s fascinating. First off, most people aren\u0026rsquo;t having ideas like that. But secondly, people who have those kinds of ideas—they\u0026rsquo;re pursuing these things. Often they don\u0026rsquo;t just see the competitor and say, \u0026ldquo;Okay, we\u0026rsquo;re done. Time to stop.\u0026rdquo; But not Dan. He\u0026rsquo;s seeing this, he\u0026rsquo;s turning it into a win. What can I gain out of this? He\u0026rsquo;s being proactive in the face of a challenge. I thought that was really interesting.\nThe second example comes from Warwick Donaldson. Warwick also works in startups, but he used to work in the call centre at ANZ, and he didn\u0026rsquo;t enjoy working there. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t his life\u0026rsquo;s goal to work at the call centre, but what he did when he was there: he would sit down and look at the GAL, the Global Address List, which contains the emails of everyone at ANZ. You can just email pretty much anyone.\nWhat he would do—he was there for eight or nine months—he would email people and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m interested in what you do. Do you have time to go out and get coffee?\u0026rdquo; He worked his way through different areas—credit risk, market risk, traders, et cetera. People were really receptive to what he was doing.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve found that as well. When I reach out to people, they\u0026rsquo;re receptive to what I\u0026rsquo;m doing, which is something you don\u0026rsquo;t think about when you\u0026rsquo;re not reaching out to people. He found that people were really receptive. He worked his way through ANZ and eventually found his way to the Asians at Treasury.\nThey said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, we\u0026rsquo;re hiring for a role actually.\u0026rdquo; And then boom, he got a job there through just emailing people and putting himself out there. He\u0026rsquo;s got this challenge that he\u0026rsquo;s facing where he\u0026rsquo;s not doing what he wants to be doing for the long term, and he\u0026rsquo;s proactive. He goes out and gets what he wants. That was great.\nThese are two examples of people that, in the face of a challenge, didn\u0026rsquo;t take a step back and go into their shell. They expanded and were able to take on the challenge and approach things in a really cool way and get really cool results.\nThe next step is actions. What can you actually do now as a result of hearing this? Proactive versus reactive. \u0026ldquo;Yeah, I understand that, James. That\u0026rsquo;s all well and good, but what can I do now as a result of this?\u0026rdquo;\nThe first thing I would say is understand what an asymmetric risk is. This is important, and it\u0026rsquo;s something I think is really cool. We will take risks in life. We understand some things are risky. The easy example to give here is putting money in the stock market. There\u0026rsquo;s some risk because you might lose money, but there\u0026rsquo;s also some gain because the stock might go up and you might make money. There is some possible win and a possible loss there.\nThe stock market—let\u0026rsquo;s say if we had an equal chance of going up and an equal chance of going down, which it doesn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily, but if you took that as an example, that would be a symmetric risk, because the risk of it going down and the risk of it going up is the same. The likelihood you lose or gain is the same. That\u0026rsquo;s symmetric risk.\nThen there\u0026rsquo;s what we call an asymmetric risk, which is where the odds are stacked one way or the other. You could have an asymmetric risk where there is not much upside, but there\u0026rsquo;s lots of downside. You could also have an asymmetric risk where there\u0026rsquo;s not much downside, but lots of upside.\nThe thing with networking and what these guys have done—these are examples of an asymmetric risk. It\u0026rsquo;s the best kind of asymmetric risk because there is no downside; it\u0026rsquo;s only upside. If you think about asking someone for a favour or, like Warwick was doing, emailing people and saying, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m interested in what you do,\u0026rdquo; and he\u0026rsquo;s got a job out of it—these are asymmetric risks because even if they said no, Warwick is still where he is. He hasn\u0026rsquo;t lost anything. There\u0026rsquo;s no downside to what he\u0026rsquo;s doing. The worst they could do is say no; the best they could do is say yes. There are only upsides. If you even wanted to call it a risk, which it probably isn\u0026rsquo;t, it just feels risky to ask someone.\nIn fact, there is actually no risk to doing some of these things. Understanding this and understanding the power of reaching out and this idea of \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s the worst that could happen?\u0026quot;—it\u0026rsquo;s easy to say, but it\u0026rsquo;s hard to do. But if you could actually get in the habit of doing things like that, I think it\u0026rsquo;s really powerful.\nThe second thing: understanding what you want. Dan and Warwick both had quite clear intentions of saying, \u0026ldquo;Hey, this would be cool. How can I go out and get it?\u0026rdquo; Particularly with Warwick, he knew that he wanted to work at ANZ in some kind of markets financial role, and he\u0026rsquo;s gone out and achieved that.\nDan had clarity in his desire for internships and getting experience, and he was able to go and achieve that. Some questions to ask yourself, and these are quite deep. I challenge the listener—I challenge you to actually answer these, because I think they\u0026rsquo;re quite cool.\nAsk yourself: What is it that you actually want? What do you want? If you could ask for anything and receive it, what would you ask for? If you could ask for anything and get it, what would you ask? Now that you know what you would ask for, who could you ask today to get closer to that? What could you do today to get closer to getting that?\nIf you can answer these questions and give yourself something to do today, then you\u0026rsquo;re one step closer to getting the things you want. It\u0026rsquo;s important to understand that a lot of what is in the way is in your head and not a real legitimate problem. Although of course those exist, but oftentimes, and I know for myself, a lot of the time it\u0026rsquo;s been a mental game rather than something I can actually do.\nA good thing to ask yourself is, what would the best version of you be doing in this situation? Or if Elon Musk was transplanted into my body, what would he do in this situation? That\u0026rsquo;s a good way to get yourself out of those mental blocks.\nAnyway, we\u0026rsquo;re off topic. We\u0026rsquo;ve finished section one. Proactive versus reactive. That was a great little segment there.\nTime Management # James: What we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about now is time management.\nIf you do want to read this later, it is available on the Graduate Theory website. If you\u0026rsquo;re enjoying yourself so far, please go and read this afterwards. Everything is written down. Don\u0026rsquo;t feel any pressure to transcribe this yourself. All this is written down at graduatetheory.com, episode 25.\nThe second part of this episode is time management, probably one of the most important skills leaders must have. We\u0026rsquo;ve all got constant pressure on our time, whether it\u0026rsquo;s meetings, social activities or things we want to do outside of work. Knowing how to get things done effectively is extremely important.\nAdam Geha—we had him on episode 20. He is really the pinnacle of time management. He\u0026rsquo;s got fantastic processes around this. He\u0026rsquo;s extremely disciplined with his time, and he\u0026rsquo;s got a lot to say about how we can use our time more effectively. He said, \u0026ldquo;If you are not interested in the question of how to extract maximum value from those 16 waking hours, in my view, you are not thinking straight, and you\u0026rsquo;re frankly not even on the field in terms of high performance.\u0026rdquo;\nSo you\u0026rsquo;ve heard it, folks. We need to get on the field. We need to take this issue seriously. This is not just some mumbo-jumbo productivity nonsense. This is what is going to separate you. This is what is going to take your career to the next level. If you can manage your time effectively, it is a skill that is going to last the rest of your life, and it is something that you\u0026rsquo;re going to benefit from every single day if you can get it down pat.\nWhat is time management? It is the process of planning and exercising conscious control of time spent on specific activities, especially to increase effectiveness, efficiency and productivity. That is Wikipedia\u0026rsquo;s definition of time management. How can we exercise conscious control of our time? As Adam said, we have 16 waking hours every day. We want to maximise them and squeeze out as much value as we can.\nSome examples of this. Adam\u0026rsquo;s episode is fantastic. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already listened to it, it is a really good episode. In the episode with Adam, he gave many examples of things he does to be more effective with his time. He\u0026rsquo;s very serious with it. He\u0026rsquo;s got very strong boundaries around his time.\nThese are probably more advanced techniques than what grads need to know, but they give you some perspective on the way that a high performer treats their time. He says, don\u0026rsquo;t default to one-hour meetings; keep meetings as short as necessary. He has a predefined wardrobe, so he\u0026rsquo;s wearing the same thing every day—you might have five of the same shirts, for example. He doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to waste time thinking about what he\u0026rsquo;s going to wear.\nHe knows people that reverse the car in at night so they can get out faster in the mornings. He does things like brushing his teeth and showing gratitude at the same time every day, et cetera. He\u0026rsquo;s done a lot of these things to create routines in his life so that he can have more mental bandwidth to be able to do other things.\nHe spoke about using routines. If you\u0026rsquo;ve got routine tasks, you should have routines to deal with them so they don\u0026rsquo;t use RAM. By RAM, he means your mental bandwidth. You\u0026rsquo;re going to encounter non-routine problems and tasks that require brainpower, so use routines to handle everything else.\nAnother example of someone that is extremely productive and really great at time management is Penny Talalak. Penny is extremely busy, and she has her own tricks that she uses to get more done. Her first thing was surround yourself with people that are also busy and have side hustles like she does. Make sure you set your schedule using some kind of board or tracking system to track what you\u0026rsquo;re doing. Break pieces of work down into small pieces and then plan your week in advance.\nThese are all things that you can do today, and things that I encourage you to do to get more done in the day. Let\u0026rsquo;s talk about actions. What can you actually do?\nThis is a special part of this episode because I\u0026rsquo;ve been on a massive binge of Cal Newport recently. If you don\u0026rsquo;t know who Cal Newport is, he is this productivity guru—digital minimalism, World Without Email. He\u0026rsquo;s got a lot of advice for graduates and people in their early career, university students. He\u0026rsquo;s got a lot of interesting content, and he\u0026rsquo;s known as the productivity guru.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve been bingeing through his podcast recently. In one of his recent episodes, someone asked him, \u0026ldquo;If you were going to distil your productivity into some steps, baby steps, what would they be?\u0026rdquo; He goes through seven, but I\u0026rsquo;ve narrowed it down to five because I thought the last two weren\u0026rsquo;t super relevant.\nI\u0026rsquo;m going to paraphrase the five that he mentioned, because I think this is the game-changer for your productivity. This is what I try and use in my career and in my time management, and I\u0026rsquo;ve found it to be very effective.\nThe first of these five baby steps that Cal mentioned is a time block plan. Every job needs time. Using your calendar, you can allocate time for each task that you need to complete. If you get knocked off this time, you start by redoing your time and resetting your plan for the rest of the day.\nI spoke about this in episode 10 of the Graduate Theory podcast, and it was this idea of—often people use to-do lists as their way to track what they\u0026rsquo;re doing and get things done. But you\u0026rsquo;ll find that if you use that, at the end of the day, you almost always have things left on the list. You never really complete the day. Instead, what you can do is say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, this task is going to take me 25 minutes,\u0026rdquo; and then schedule 25 minutes in my calendar to complete this task.\nAt the end of the day, if I\u0026rsquo;ve planned my day well and I didn\u0026rsquo;t finish everything, hey, I still spent eight hours working. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t able to achieve that. That\u0026rsquo;s totally fine. This idea of time blocking and converting your tasks and estimating how long it\u0026rsquo;s going to take, putting that time in your actual calendar, is way more powerful than just taking items off of a to-do list. It brings a lot more clarity to what needs to be done at a given time.\nThe second thing Cal recommends is a task board: a place to track what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, what is on your plate, where each task stands and any relevant notes. For each of your professional roles, use a board such as Trello, Flow or Asana. The particular system isn\u0026rsquo;t important; what matters is knowing what\u0026rsquo;s happening and having one place for that information.\nFor me personally, I use Trello to keep track of what\u0026rsquo;s on my plate. I have comments on my cards. When something gets updated, I have my own system for doing that, and it\u0026rsquo;s been very effective, because that means I can just return to the board, I can see what\u0026rsquo;s going on, I can see my comments and my updates on certain activities. That\u0026rsquo;s really powerful.\nNumber three: Cal says to have a shutdown ritual. At the end of each day, once you\u0026rsquo;ve finished—it\u0026rsquo;s five o\u0026rsquo;clock, workday\u0026rsquo;s done—after I\u0026rsquo;ve allocated time across the day, now it\u0026rsquo;s time to shut down and make sure that I\u0026rsquo;ve left everything in a place where I know it\u0026rsquo;s been taken care of, and I can leave my work knowing that there\u0026rsquo;s no loose ends still hanging. Whether that\u0026rsquo;s emailing, leaving comments in places, making sure that things are wrapped up, that is important, because we want to have a clear separation for when is the end of the day. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to have your work life seep into your personal life. You want to have a clear end and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, this is the end. No more.\u0026rdquo; Making sure all those loose ends are tied—whether it\u0026rsquo;s you\u0026rsquo;ve put emails in a certain place, allocated time, accounted for tasks, moved some tasks into a certain step, whether it\u0026rsquo;s moving tasks to tomorrow or whatever it might be.\nNumber four is having a weekly plan. What is my plan for the week? What things do I want to have achieved by the end of this week? It\u0026rsquo;s important to have that. That way you can use that when planning your week, blocking out certain times during the week to do a certain thing. If you say, \u0026ldquo;At the end of the week, I will have achieved this big project,\u0026rdquo; and you need this much time to do it, perhaps you block out three hours here and there. It helps to do that at the start of the week before your calendar starts getting clogged up with random stuff as the week goes on. People can\u0026rsquo;t just book time in there. It\u0026rsquo;s important that you take control of your calendar. If you want to have time to yourself, book out time in your calendar so that no one else can book time in there. That is something important.\nThe fifth part, the last part, is having a strategic plan. This is something I think is really cool and something that you can return to when you write your weekly plan. Let\u0026rsquo;s have a strategic plan for the quarter, for the half year or the year, whatever it is, whatever distance you choose. Personally, I use quarterly because it\u0026rsquo;s not so close that it\u0026rsquo;s too soon, but it\u0026rsquo;s not so far away that I can\u0026rsquo;t actually realistically see the end to a quarter. It works well with the workplace calendar.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got to write in here, what things do you want to have achieved by the end of the quarter? What are your quarterly goals? What are your strategic goals? Put them in this plan and make sure that you do refer to them during the weekly plan, when you\u0026rsquo;re planning your week, when you\u0026rsquo;re fixing things in your calendar. Make sure that you refer to this so that you can know, \u0026ldquo;Hey, this is what I\u0026rsquo;m going to achieve this quarter. This is the time that I\u0026rsquo;ve set aside to complete the tasks here.\u0026rdquo; That is so important.\nNetworking # James: Number three is networking. Networking is a bit of a dirty word. But in episode one, I spoke to Joe—Joe Wehbe—and he had this to say about networking. He said, \u0026ldquo;Networking is a dirty word, but it\u0026rsquo;s one I\u0026rsquo;m happy to use because every time I think, the way to do it most effectively is just at the end of the day to become a better person.\u0026rdquo;\nThe way to be an effective networker is just become a better person. That\u0026rsquo;s fantastic advice. We don\u0026rsquo;t want to be a snake oil salesman networker. Nobody wants that—you will get found out. It\u0026rsquo;s best to be genuine, best to become as best a person as we can be so that we can continue to make connections and grow our careers.\nNetworking is this ability to connect with others. Someone that is a good networker is good at connecting with other people, good at growing their network. But we don\u0026rsquo;t want to do this in a nasty way, or you\u0026rsquo;re left as the snake oil salesman type, because you can grow your network maliciously—it can be done—but we don\u0026rsquo;t want to do that. We want to be genuine.\nSome examples of this. I spoke to Joe Wehbe in episode one, and he gave a great example out of the book Give and Take by Adam Grant. In this book, Adam looks at different archetypes as networkers and what\u0026rsquo;s the most effective one to be in your career, what\u0026rsquo;s the most effective way to network.\nThere are three archetypes that Joe spoke to me about: there\u0026rsquo;s givers, matchers, and takers. Joe gave some examples in the episode. Takers are \u0026ldquo;what\u0026rsquo;s in it for me?\u0026rdquo; What is in it for me for me to be willing to help? Then matchers—I like traders. There\u0026rsquo;s got to be an even exchange of value. It\u0026rsquo;s like \u0026ldquo;you scratch my back, I\u0026rsquo;ll scratch yours.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s got to be 50/50. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to be getting something and it\u0026rsquo;s got to be equivalent to what you\u0026rsquo;re getting for us to continue. That is a very common thing to do.\nThe third thing is givers—someone that just gives with no expectation of receiving. Joe said he thinks everyone\u0026rsquo;s benefit is linked to everyone else\u0026rsquo;s in the big picture. But the fascinating thing is if you expand your thinking and you think long-term, normally other people\u0026rsquo;s advantages become your advantages too. That was really powerful.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s certainly interesting—if you think about yourself as a networker, do you expect something in return? What are you? Are you someone that just contributes with no expectation of a return? Someone who does that, someone who is a giver, is Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza. Haynes was a massive help for myself early on in the podcast. We had him on the show, and he continues to be someone that almost mentors me in some sense, someone that is always watching what\u0026rsquo;s going on and giving me some advice. I really appreciate him and his impact on the podcast.\nWhen we spoke, he spoke about people reaching out to him. He is someone that works at Aurec. He\u0026rsquo;s a well-known guy, and people will reach out to him and ask him for stuff. He gave this advice. He said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve got to be careful when cold emailing and cold reaching out to people.\u0026rdquo; Because this is one of the things about networking—if I want to meet someone, perhaps for the podcast, I\u0026rsquo;ll email them, reaching out to someone cold. This is common, and this is something that we can all be more aware of, but there are things that you must abide by when you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out to someone cold.\nHaynes says you\u0026rsquo;ve got to be very careful when you do this. There are two things that you should be careful of. One thing that he looks for is: is this person legitimate? If he says yes to what they\u0026rsquo;re asking, will they take it seriously? Will they show up on time? The second thing is, what do they want to get out of it? Why are they reaching out? Do they just want to have a coffee and get referred to a position, or do they have some actual genuine interest?\nHe said, when you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out to people, please be clear on what it is that you want to get from people\u0026rsquo;s time. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to be wary—people are busy. What exactly do you want? Let\u0026rsquo;s get clear on that before we start reaching out to people.\nHow can we get better at networking? How can we get better at this? This is a very important skill and one that it certainly pays to be better at.\nI think a big part of this, and one of the angles I\u0026rsquo;m going to take, is how can we get better at reaching out to people that we haven\u0026rsquo;t necessarily met, but people that we\u0026rsquo;re interested in? That is important, similar to Warwick and Dan. Right at the start of this episode, we were talking about how they were reaching out to people that they didn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily know, or they were reaching out seeking opportunities.\nGetting good at that is really important and is a fundamental skill when it comes to networking. This is something that I do for the podcast. A lot of the guests that I\u0026rsquo;ve had on the show, I didn\u0026rsquo;t know before reaching out to them and asking them to be on the show. Sometimes they\u0026rsquo;re referred, but usually they\u0026rsquo;re just people that I say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, you\u0026rsquo;re interesting. Would you like to come on the show?\u0026rdquo;\nThere are certain ways to do that that are effective. One of the templates that I use is from the Pat Flynn podcast. He has a podcast invite email, and it\u0026rsquo;s linked. If you want to go and look at this on the blog post, it is there.\nWhat he does when you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out to someone cold: start with a specific praise. What is something that they\u0026rsquo;ve done recently, that they\u0026rsquo;ve blogged about recently that did well, did something recently happen in their life? Start with that—shows some interest in them personally. Then you can introduce yourself. Say who you are and what do you want from them. Then social proof. Say something about \u0026ldquo;I had this person on,\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I know you through this person,\u0026rdquo; or whatever—some kind of proof that just shows, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m reasonable. I\u0026rsquo;m not just a random stranger. I actually do have something to offer here.\u0026rdquo; There is some level of proof that \u0026ldquo;Hey, I actually do know what I\u0026rsquo;m talking about.\u0026rdquo;\nThe next part is a plan. Let\u0026rsquo;s have a plan around, \u0026ldquo;Okay, yes, I\u0026rsquo;m interested. What are the next steps?\u0026rdquo; And let\u0026rsquo;s talk about this. Why am I reaching out? \u0026ldquo;I want to speak to you about this,\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I want to do this with you,\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I want to discuss this,\u0026rdquo; or whatever it is. That\u0026rsquo;s got to be quite clear as well.\nThen the outcome: what is going to happen as a result? \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m confident I can provide this for you,\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;confident that we can have a great discussion,\u0026rdquo; whatever it might be. Let\u0026rsquo;s finish with an outcome. This is a template that I use for my podcast when I\u0026rsquo;m reaching out, just to have those things that say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, when I\u0026rsquo;m reaching out to someone, I want to say this, this, this, this.\u0026rdquo; First of all, because I want to be genuinely interested in this person—otherwise I don\u0026rsquo;t want to reach out to them. Secondly, I think it\u0026rsquo;s important that you treat the person, like Haynes said, with respect. We want to respect people\u0026rsquo;s time.\nWhen I spoke to Dan Brockwell as well, he mentioned some tips when reaching out. Probably he used some of them when he was reaching out to these guys, as we mentioned in the first point. He said, make sure you include who you are, why you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out, what is in it for them. And use the following techniques: provide value. You could suggest an improvement to the business perhaps, or suggest an improvement to the app they\u0026rsquo;re building, or whatever it might be. Then have a clear ask—what exactly do you want them to do, and say it in a way that they can accept.\nDan said, \u0026ldquo;Would you be open to this?\u0026rdquo; This is what Dan said. \u0026ldquo;Would you be open to having me as a marketing intern?\u0026rdquo; No one wants to be closed off. Ask them, \u0026ldquo;Would they be open to doing this?\u0026rdquo; That is an effective technique.\nTrusting Your Gut # James: Number four is trusting your gut. What does it mean to trust your gut? Michael Gill said on the podcast that you have three ways of knowing: your head, your heart and your gut.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got to keep them all in balance. The gut is that feeling inside your stomach that you get when you\u0026rsquo;re doing something you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be, or things aren\u0026rsquo;t going as well as they could be. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to listen to your gut. Some examples from the show: Lidia Ranieri is one such example.\nLidia used to work at Goldman Sachs, but it turns out that she actually initially started her career in law. She had her first job out of university. She was working at a law firm, and she thought that she was made to work in law. She was doing it for three months. Then she knew—she had that gut feeling that said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, this is not for me.\u0026rdquo;\nShe told her friends and family that she wasn\u0026rsquo;t going to do it anymore, because she had that gut feeling. They were all saying, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re silly. You\u0026rsquo;ve got this fantastic career. What are you doing?\u0026rdquo; But Lidia pushed through, followed her gut. Then she went on to have a fantastic career at Goldman Sachs. Now she\u0026rsquo;s a coach and she\u0026rsquo;s got a fantastic career. Certainly following her gut—and she knew at that time, \u0026ldquo;This is something that is not for me. Act on it.\u0026rdquo; Acting on it is so important.\nI also spoke to Andrew Akib. Andrew is the CEO of Maslow, which is a disability and accessibility startup. He said to follow your gut—follow your gut is so important. This is what he said. \u0026ldquo;The thing you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about doing, don\u0026rsquo;t just kick the can down the road and keep thinking about it. If there\u0026rsquo;s something you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about, just do it.\u0026rdquo; He said he would have started Maslow a few years earlier if he\u0026rsquo;d done this. He said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re either going to start it or you\u0026rsquo;re not. You either will or you won\u0026rsquo;t. So if you are going to do it, you may as well start now.\u0026rdquo;\nThat was really great advice from him. He really stressed how important it was that he trusted his gut, and he wished looking back that he had done that sooner because he had that feeling, but he pushed it away. He\u0026rsquo;s glad that he finally acted on it, but he wishes—he wishes he was in your shoes, the person listening to this. He wishes he was you and he could go back and act on that thing today.\nAnother guest that spoke about that gut feeling was Mel Kettle. Mel was the most recent guest on the show. She had this rule—it was called the three-night rule—where she was saying, \u0026ldquo;If something is deep inside my gut and is keeping me awake for three nights in a row, it is time to act on that thing.\u0026rdquo; If it\u0026rsquo;s keeping me up three nights in a row, then it\u0026rsquo;s time to either quit the job, leave that partner, do that thing, start that channel, whatever it is. Three nights in a row—that is the warning sign. Your body\u0026rsquo;s going to tell you when things aren\u0026rsquo;t right, and this is a great rule of thumb that you can use to start acting on this thing.\nWhat are the actions from here? I would say pay attention to your gut. I would honestly just use Mel\u0026rsquo;s rule. That was a really great way of looking at it. If something is keeping you up for three nights in a row, folks, it is time to make a decision on that thing. It is time to do it, time to start it, time to quit it, whatever it is. Your gut is super important, as Gilly said. You\u0026rsquo;ve got those three ways of knowing, and it\u0026rsquo;s important that we act on them. It\u0026rsquo;s important. Very important. Don\u0026rsquo;t be like Andrew, where you\u0026rsquo;ve had that idea for so long and you haven\u0026rsquo;t acted on it. Do it now, folks. Do it now.\nPersonal Branding # James: We\u0026rsquo;ve got the last one here. Number five: personal branding.\nPersonal branding. This is huge. Now with the invention of modern technology, there is nothing stopping you from having your own personal brand. Personal branding is all about creating an avenue for people to know you. You want to shift from a consumer, someone that just watches, reads whatever, to someone that creates, someone that shares, someone that is known amongst the community.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve had plenty of guests who have spoken on this topic, and the first one is Dan. I keep referring to him a lot of the time, but Dan Brockwell is someone that does this extremely well. The reason why—one of the reasons I like Dan so much—is that he practises what he preaches. He is someone that doesn\u0026rsquo;t just give advice. He is living that advice day in and day out. Dan has an incredible personal brand. Lots of people on LinkedIn follow him. His posts are extremely engaging. If you\u0026rsquo;re not already following Dan, I don\u0026rsquo;t know what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, but you should get on LinkedIn, get on there right now and follow this man, because he is fantastic.\nWhen I spoke to Dan, he was speaking about the importance of a personal brand, and he was saying that an online personal brand allows you to get your story out to people in a much more scalable way. It allows people to find out who you are. He said, it\u0026rsquo;s finding out who you are, but there\u0026rsquo;s actually some twists to this. It\u0026rsquo;s actually, who knows you? Who knows you—that is powerful. Then he said, there\u0026rsquo;s an even further modification to this: who knows you for what? Who knows you for what? This is so important. Ask yourself that: who knows you, and who knows you for what?\nHaving an online personal brand will get you these extra shots on goal. You have access to more opportunity. You\u0026rsquo;ll be able to get into certain places. You\u0026rsquo;ll be friends with certain people because of putting yourself out there and contributing to the ecosystem of information. This can open up fantastic opportunities. Dan had offers from Google just through his personal brand, not from applying. Someone came and asked him to work at Google for no particular reason aside from his personal brand. Powerful stuff.\nEric and Aiden as well—I spoke to them in episode nine. We spoke about mental health and careers, but they had some great things to say about personal branding. In their book called The New Job Code—that was their book that they wrote—they had some great things to say about personal branding as well.\nEric said, \u0026ldquo;When I was close to graduating, I had a mentor at the time, someone that I\u0026rsquo;d sought out.\u0026rdquo; Some advice that this mentor gave him, which he took two years to act on, was to build something, to create a visible identity, or something that you could be known for outside of your role, because it gives you confidence and it requires that you build skills to create that thing. It means that you\u0026rsquo;re visible.\nEric and Aiden said the same thing: they wish they\u0026rsquo;d started doing something like that earlier. It\u0026rsquo;s these things that people wish they started doing earlier that you have the power to do today, folks. You have the power to do that today. Get amongst it and start doing some of this stuff.\nAdam Ashton—he has a podcast called What You Will Learn, a book summary podcast. They read books—him and his co-host, who\u0026rsquo;s also called Adam. They read books and they give this summary. He had a really interesting insight into why you could start to create something that wasn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily so much pressure. If you are someone that\u0026rsquo;s creating, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to go from zero to one. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to think of new ideas. It\u0026rsquo;s hard work.\nHe had some really interesting insight where he said a good middle step between consumption, which is the zero, and creation, which is the one—zero to one. He said the middle step between consumption and creation is curation. This is what they went with for the podcast, so that they\u0026rsquo;re learning, and they\u0026rsquo;re curating the books so that they read a book and capture the knowledge from the book and then release it. It\u0026rsquo;s not like they\u0026rsquo;re creating something completely new, but they\u0026rsquo;re curating what\u0026rsquo;s already out there. That enables them to be effective and efficient creators without necessarily having a lot of the effort and the mental energy. It takes a lot of effort to create something completely new. Curation is a really good way to get started.\nWhat actions can you take? What can we do now, folks, to start our personal brand? Many people don\u0026rsquo;t have some kind of personal brand. They haven\u0026rsquo;t really made many steps to start creating something like this. I had some questions here. What can you ask yourself to start doing something like this? What steps can you take to start creating?\nSome of the questions I have here: What am I interested in? What are you interested in? What do I tell people about? What are my conversations about? What do people ask me for advice about? If I was a YouTuber, what would my videos be about? If I had a Substack, if I was a writer, what would I write about?\nIf I was a writer, what would my writing be about? If I was a YouTuber, what would my YouTube channel be about? What am I interested in? What do people come to me for advice about? These are all great questions to get the ball rolling and things that—you know, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I forgot about this. I could write about that.\u0026rdquo; This is the stuff. Start doing something, start contributing something.\nA great example of this is myself. It\u0026rsquo;s important to remember that people who now have some kind of public image, whether it\u0026rsquo;s Dan or people on this podcast, or myself included—they at one stage did not have what they have now. They started from zero. I\u0026rsquo;m an example of that too. No one really knew who I was, and I\u0026rsquo;ve gone out there and started contributing. I found an area that I was interested in, and that was: how can we empower and grow young people\u0026rsquo;s careers? That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. I\u0026rsquo;m trying as best I can. In doing that, contributing to the knowledge that is around and adding my little touch onto the world.\nWe can all do it. You will have that place where you can add some value to someone, and I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I\u0026rsquo;d highly recommend that people go out and start doing this. Step out and share your abilities with the world. Be proactive—I think it\u0026rsquo;s so important.\nClose # James: We\u0026rsquo;ve been chatting for a while now. You\u0026rsquo;ve done well. You\u0026rsquo;ve made it this far. Thank you so much. You\u0026rsquo;ve listened to me for nearly an hour. Thank you so much for putting up with me this long. I really appreciate it, and I hope that you found some value in this podcast. We\u0026rsquo;ve gone through a lot.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve gone through a lot, to be honest. If you did miss it, if you want to recap some of the content that we\u0026rsquo;ve covered, all this information you\u0026rsquo;ve heard is in text format on the Graduate Theory website. Please go there, find what it is you\u0026rsquo;re looking for, and you can reread it. Do whatever you want. It\u0026rsquo;s all there.\nShare this episode far and wide if you did enjoy it. It would mean a lot to me. Like I said at the start of this episode, please review the podcast on Spotify. Review it on Apple Podcasts and subscribe if you\u0026rsquo;re on YouTube. Wherever you are, please subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter. You get emails—episodes like this direct to your inbox—and it comes with my takeaways. It\u0026rsquo;s not just the episode. I go through, I analyse the episode, find some key parts that I thought were really insightful, and I add them to the newsletter. Get on that, subscribe to that.\nThank you again for listening. It really does mean a lot to me. If you\u0026rsquo;re still listening, email me, let me know what you thought. My email is james@graduatetheory.com. Go there, send me an email. I\u0026rsquo;m happy to chat to anyone that has any thoughts.\nThanks again so much. We\u0026rsquo;ll see you around.\n← Back to episode 25\n","date":"11 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/25-the-quarter-century-review-with-james-fricker/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 25\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: The Quarter Century Review with James Fricker","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis is episode #24 of Graduate Theory. Burnout is something we hear about but probably haven\u0026rsquo;t had much experience with. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest shines a light on what she wishes she knew before burning out in her career.\nThese takeaways, direct to your inbox, every week 👇\nSubscribe Now\nMel Kettle is a communications expert with more than two decades of experience in strategic communication and leadership.\nShe has been recognised in the leadersHum 2022 Power List of the Top 200 Biggest Voices in Leadership and also has her own podcast titled ‘This Connected Life’.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # The Feather, The Brick and the Truck # Mel told this great story she had read recently.\nThe universe gives you signs and at first, it will send you a feather and then it will send you a brick and then it will send you a truck.\nFor Mel, the feather was that she was drinking lots of alcohol and her takeaway was on speed dial.\nThe brick was when she went to the doctor and they told her that if she didn\u0026rsquo;t change her behaviour, she would have a stroke.\nThe truck would have been having a stroke, but fortunately, she didn\u0026rsquo;t get that far.\nBut I really believe that there\u0026rsquo;s signs that come to us when things need to be different. And you need to listen and pay attention. And I really wished that I had done that sooner.\nThe Three-night Rule # If you can\u0026rsquo;t sleep because of a problem in your life, that could be something worth thinking about.\nMel has a great rule of thumb for these serious problems. If it keeps her up for 3 nights in a row, it\u0026rsquo;s time to take action on that thing.\nYour job not great and keeping you awake at night? If it\u0026rsquo;s three nights in a row, it\u0026rsquo;s time to quit.\nif it was more than if it was three or more nights in a row, then that\u0026rsquo;s a really big warning sign for me that something\u0026rsquo;s not right in my life. And, and I still have that. Um, And R I\u0026rsquo;ve I\u0026rsquo;ve used that three night rule with, with boyfriends, with jobs, with clients. And I just think it\u0026rsquo;s such, it\u0026rsquo;s your body\u0026rsquo;s way of saying to you things aren\u0026rsquo;t right and you need to listen.\nHow to Make Important Decisions # Mel spoke about how she wished she had done better at making important decisions early in her life.\nHer recommendation for big decisions was to sit down and write down the pros and cons of each choice. Making sure that you\u0026rsquo;ve considered both the short and long term effects of your decision.\nAnd even as something as simple as writing, getting two pieces of paper and writing on one piece of paper or the pros and the other\u0026rsquo;s piece of paper or the cons, and then ranking them what comes out of. really wish I\u0026rsquo;d done that. There\u0026rsquo;s a few decisions I\u0026rsquo;ve made life where I wish I\u0026rsquo;d done that.\nGet clarity, decide, act.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Mel # https://www.melkettle.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/melkettle/\n📝 Show Timestamps # 00:00 Intro 00:57 Mel before she became a leadership expert 07:16 How did moving cities impact Mel 13:21 Does Mel have certain things that she likes in cities? 15:32 How do you escape 70 hour weeks? 18:15 The Feather, The Brick and the Truck 26:51 Ranking Decisions 32:02 How does someone become a communications expert 41:23 Mel\u0026rsquo;s book, Fully Connected 43:33 What stuck out to Mel while she was researching the book 49:41 Mel\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates 51:24 Where to contact Mel 52:18 Outro\n","date":"4 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/24-on-avoiding-career-traps-and-burnout-with-mel-kettle/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis is episode #24 of Graduate Theory. Burnout is something we hear about but probably haven’t had much experience with. Today’s guest shines a light on what she wishes she knew before burning out in her career.\n","title":"On Avoiding Career Traps and Burnout with Mel Kettle","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 24\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # Mel: I went to the doctor\u0026rsquo;s one day. He took my blood pressure and said, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know how you\u0026rsquo;re walking around. I\u0026rsquo;ve never seen blood pressure so high in someone as young as you. If you don\u0026rsquo;t make some major changes in your life, you\u0026rsquo;ll have a stroke before you turn 30.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a communications expert with more than two decades of experience in strategic communication and leadership.\nShe was recently recognised in the LeadersHum 2022 Power List of the top 200 biggest voices in leadership. She also has her own podcast, This Connected Life.\nPlease welcome to the show today, Mel.\nMel: Thanks so much, James. It is an absolute pleasure to be here today.\nMel before she became a leadership expert # James: It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have you on the show, Mel. I\u0026rsquo;m excited to dive into your career, what you\u0026rsquo;ve done and what you teach now. But I want to start with your experience before you became a leadership communications expert. What was your career like before you got into this work?\nMel: It took me a while to get my career going. I didn\u0026rsquo;t really know what I wanted to do. I started studying economics at university and got two and a half years through a three-year degree before deciding, \u0026ldquo;No, I don\u0026rsquo;t really like this.\u0026rdquo; I dropped out, went travelling, came back, did a degree in tourism management, loved it, finished it and went travelling again.\nWhat else do you do with a degree in tourism? I came back to Australia in my mid-twenties because I was offered a job in a small business organising conferences, something I\u0026rsquo;d always been really interested in. I took the job, moved to Sydney and absolutely loved it.\nI worked for that small business for three years, and I really credit its owner with helping me start my career in a way that would get me to where I am today. Every time I tell her that, she\u0026rsquo;s highly embarrassed, but it\u0026rsquo;s true. She supported me and believed in me, even when I didn\u0026rsquo;t believe in myself. She took a chance on me when I had no professional work experience. All my jobs had involved money in some capacity: working in a shop or department store, or as a waitress.\nShe gave me this great opportunity. Because we were a small business, we all did everything. When it came to conferences, we had to manage the logistics and look after the operational side.\nWe also had to conduct all the client meetings, and some of our clients were Australia\u0026rsquo;s senior leaders. One conference we ran was for the ASX, and I don\u0026rsquo;t think anybody in the room was below vice-president level at one of Australia\u0026rsquo;s top 200 companies at the time.\nThey were really influential, powerful people, and she had confidence that we could have conversations with them. The other thing we had to do was get bums on seats. This was in the nineties, so social media didn\u0026rsquo;t exist and the internet was just starting out.\nI know you probably find that hard to believe, given that you\u0026rsquo;re quite a bit younger than I am, but there was a time when the internet didn\u0026rsquo;t exist. To market our events, we had to create hard-copy brochures and post them. We would start working on an international conference two years beforehand.\nIf we didn\u0026rsquo;t get the initial brochure out a year before the event, people wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have time to arrange to come to Australia. I learnt so much in that job and absolutely loved it, but after three years I wanted more. There was nowhere else for me to go in an organisation with only four staff.\nI was headhunted by a global marketing agency to run all the events for one of its major clients, a major player in the tech industry in Australia and globally. It was a really interesting experience. I won that job over many people with much more conference experience because of the all-round experience I\u0026rsquo;d gained in my previous role.\nI wasn\u0026rsquo;t prepared for how exhausting it would be to run 300 events in one year with a team of six. We basically had an event every weekday of the year. It was full-on; I can\u0026rsquo;t explain how demanding it was. My team and I did an incredible job, and I\u0026rsquo;m so proud of the young men and women I worked with. I was the oldest at 29, and all my staff were younger. Half were backpackers who wanted a cushy part-time job, which they certainly didn\u0026rsquo;t get in this organisation or with this client.\nI learnt a lot, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t look after myself. I was at the beck and call of my client and the agency I worked for. I reckon I worked an average of 70 hours a week, travelled a lot and was exhausted all the time. Partway through the year, I started feeling unwell.\nI was eating the wrong foods, drinking too much alcohol and almost mainlining caffeine, which I knew didn\u0026rsquo;t agree with me. I had a really dodgy stomach, chest pains all the time and was completely stressed to the max. I went to the doctor\u0026rsquo;s one day. He took my blood pressure and said, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know how you\u0026rsquo;re walking around.\n\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve never seen blood pressure so high in someone as young as you. If you don\u0026rsquo;t make some major changes in your life, you\u0026rsquo;ll have a stroke before you turn 30.\u0026rdquo; My 30th birthday was about three months away, so it was the wake-up call I needed to start looking after myself.\nJames: Wow. There\u0026rsquo;s a lot I want to unpack there.\nMel: I just did a big blur. Sorry about that.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s okay. There\u0026rsquo;s so much there that I want to touch on. I\u0026rsquo;d love to continue your story, but there are a few things I want to get to first.\nHow did moving cities impact Mel # James: You said you moved to Sydney to start that role. I\u0026rsquo;ve done that myself twice now: moved somewhere to live for an extended period. How did that affect you? Was the move itself beneficial, or was it the role? You mentioned that the role was great and let you do many different things. Do you credit the physical move to a new location, having new friends and recreating yourself in some way?\nMel: I found living in Sydney really difficult. I\u0026rsquo;ve lived in a lot of places. I moved to Sydney from Vancouver, where I\u0026rsquo;d moved the year before. When I was very young, we moved around a lot before settling in the house where I spent much of my primary and high school years.\nI travelled and moved around a lot in my early twenties, so I underestimated how hard moving to Sydney would be. I\u0026rsquo;d gone to high school there and knew a few people, but I found it really difficult to form a friendship circle of people whose company I genuinely enjoyed. I also worked for a small business and worked 70 hours a week, so when I wasn\u0026rsquo;t working, all I wanted to do was sleep. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t earning much money, either, so I couldn\u0026rsquo;t afford to do many of the things that people I met could do. I was pretty miserable during my four years in Sydney, and I didn\u0026rsquo;t fully appreciate how unhappy I was with life in general until I left.\nI loved my job and the people I met through it, but they weren\u0026rsquo;t people I was becoming friends with. They were mostly much older than I was, and we had professional relationships. When my doctor said, \u0026ldquo;If you don\u0026rsquo;t make some major life changes, you\u0026rsquo;ll have a stroke,\u0026rdquo; it was the catalyst for me to realise that I not only hated my job, but also hated living in Sydney.\nI turned up at work after Christmas that year, and my boss asked, \u0026ldquo;How was your break?\u0026rdquo; Before I even knew what I was saying, I replied, \u0026ldquo;It was great. I quit.\u0026rdquo; He asked, \u0026ldquo;What? Are you sure?\u0026rdquo;\nI hadn\u0026rsquo;t thought I would say those words; resigning was the furthest thing from my conscious mind. But the words came out, and I stood by them. I gave about six weeks\u0026rsquo; notice because I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what I was going to do. Within a week of resigning, I decided to leave Sydney and move to Brisbane. Moving to Brisbane was one of the best decisions I\u0026rsquo;ve ever made.\nI remember driving across the New South Wales–Queensland border and thinking, \u0026ldquo;I have come home,\u0026rdquo; even though I\u0026rsquo;d barely been to Brisbane before. It was such an unexpected sense of calm amid all the chaos of the previous 12 to 18 months. I loved living in Brisbane.\nI met amazing people who became friends within the first week or two. I moved to Brisbane 22 years ago, and three friends I made in that first week are still among my closest friends. I had one really close friend whom I met in Sydney, but we met in my last year there. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t even tell you the names of anybody I met in my first few years in Sydney because it was such a different environment. Brisbane was so friendly, welcoming and supportive. Many people had either moved to Brisbane or returned after growing up here and leaving, so many understood what it was like to move somewhere without knowing anyone. I felt that the welcome mat had really been rolled out.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s good. Moving to a new place is so hard, and social connection is so important.\nMel: Having said that, I reckon it\u0026rsquo;s easier today than it was. I moved to Sydney in 2000, when the internet was just starting. There was no social media or MySpace. There were some chat rooms, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t really understand what they were at the time. Now you can go to your social media platform of choice and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m moving to wherever.\n\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d love to meet some people. Who\u0026rsquo;s there? Where should I live? What suburbs should I look at? What schools could I send my kids to? What cafes are great? If I don\u0026rsquo;t want to work from home or in my office, where should I go? Who are the sporting teams?\u0026rdquo; You can create really strong friendships on social media before moving somewhere.\nThat gives you some context and friendly faces when you arrive, even if you don\u0026rsquo;t know anybody in the real world.\nJames: As you said, the internet makes it much easier to connect with new people. You said that when you drove across the Queensland border, you realised, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m home. This is the place for me.\u0026rdquo;\nDoes Mel have certain things that she likes in cities? # James: Did you have a checklist of things you wanted in a place—reasons Sydney wasn\u0026rsquo;t good for you and Brisbane was better?\nMel: All I wanted in a place was anything that wasn\u0026rsquo;t Sydney. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t discerning in any other way. At the time, my frustrations with Sydney included how expensive everything was.\nI wanted to buy a house, but I couldn\u0026rsquo;t afford even the crappiest little studio apartment. I wanted to meet somebody, fall in love and have a relationship, but I spent every minute of the day either working or sleeping.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t have time for that. I also found it frustrating that it took so long to get anywhere. I lived in Cammeray and worked at Bondi Junction. One day, it took me 90 minutes to drive the 11 kilometres to work.\nThat was the day I thought, \u0026ldquo;Life\u0026rsquo;s too short to be stuck in traffic for this much of it.\u0026rdquo; Everything collapsed in on me at once, and I thought, \u0026ldquo;I just don\u0026rsquo;t want to be here.\u0026rdquo; I also didn\u0026rsquo;t feel that I had much support in Sydney.\nMy family were in Gosford, so they weren\u0026rsquo;t far away, and my brother lived in Sydney, so I did have some support. But I was so deeply unhappy and borderline depressed that the only option I could see was to move away, start again and reinvent myself.\nHow do you escape 70 hour weeks? # James: You were young, working so much and fairly burnt out. Everything fell over. What steps do you take now, and what did you learn from that experience? When you\u0026rsquo;re working 70 or 80-plus hours a week, you\u0026rsquo;re not exercising, so you have takeaway more often and make other unhealthy choices. It\u0026rsquo;s a downward spiral. What did you learn from it?\nMel: I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt that I need to put myself first and listen to my gut. If my gut instinct is saying—or screaming—\u0026ldquo;This is wrong,\u0026rdquo; I need to do something about it.\nIt might mean sitting back and asking, \u0026ldquo;Why am I feeling this? Is it a long-term systemic problem, or a short-term problem that will go away?\u0026rdquo; In my previous job, we ran many conferences and events, but took a six-week break at Christmas. In the new job, there was no Christmas break.\nWe ran events until Christmas Eve, or at least 20 December, and started again around 10 January. It was constant and unrelenting. I also wasn\u0026rsquo;t sleeping well. I would wake in the middle of the night thinking, \u0026ldquo;Oh, I haven\u0026rsquo;t done that,\u0026rdquo; and write down a list of everything I had to do. I was panicked about everything I hadn\u0026rsquo;t done.\nAfter that, I put a firm rule in place: if I had three consecutive sleepless nights worrying about work, it was time to quit that job and get something else. We all occasionally have sleepless nights when small or large stressors keep us awake.\nBut three or more nights in a row is a big warning sign that something isn\u0026rsquo;t right in my life. I still have that rule, and I\u0026rsquo;ve used it with boyfriends, jobs and clients. It\u0026rsquo;s your body\u0026rsquo;s way of saying that things aren\u0026rsquo;t right and you need to listen.\nJames: For people listening, it\u0026rsquo;s useful to be able to take those lessons and apply them.\nThe Feather, The Brick and the Truck # Mel: I recently read a story about how the universe gives you signs: first it sends you a feather, then a brick and then a truck.\nFor me, with my stress and burnout, the feather was not sleeping, drinking too much wine, having my local Thai takeaway on speed dial and calling three nights a week, constantly feeling anxious and then getting chest pains. The brick was my doctor saying, \u0026ldquo;If you don\u0026rsquo;t make a major change in your life, you\u0026rsquo;ll have a stroke pretty soon.\u0026rdquo;\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t have the truck, but a stroke would have been it. Think about what\u0026rsquo;s happening in your world and the signs you\u0026rsquo;re being sent. I\u0026rsquo;m not a woo-woo person. I\u0026rsquo;m highly practical and pragmatic, and I have a very scientific, methodical brain.\nBut I believe there are signs when things need to be different, and you need to listen and pay attention. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d done that sooner. Even before I took the job, I had a gut feeling it wasn\u0026rsquo;t the right thing to do. But I\u0026rsquo;d never been headhunted before.\nMy ego took over, and they offered me much more money than I was earning. I quickly realised the money wasn\u0026rsquo;t worth it, but by then I felt I had no recourse but to continue. The money is never worth it, by the way.\nJames: There\u0026rsquo;s a lot of wisdom there. One of the aims of the podcast is to share experiences like yours—something people probably don\u0026rsquo;t want to go through themselves. If somebody faces a pathway in life where they could go down that path, they can learn from those who have been there before.\nMel: I had planned to move to Mexico for a year, and then this job came along. I cannot tell you how much I wish I\u0026rsquo;d gone to Mexico. I still never have, because my priorities shifted. I believe there are many times in life when we reach a fork in the road.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s like the sliding-doors moment from the Gwyneth Paltrow movie: you can take door A or door B. You may end up where you need to be, but the route there can be very different. When you have an opportunity—or two opportunities and a decision to make—think carefully about which decision is right for you, not only today but longer-term.\nI wish I\u0026rsquo;d thought more about whether my decisions in my twenties would make me happy in my twenties. I made many decisions that made me deeply unhappy, and I can\u0026rsquo;t overstate how important it is to feel joy and be happy with your life. We\u0026rsquo;ve got one life, and you need to make the most of it.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. Thank you for sharing it, because it\u0026rsquo;s powerful and clearly comes from your own experience.\nMel: It does. It\u0026rsquo;s also easy for me to say with hindsight. I\u0026rsquo;m in my fifties, and I\u0026rsquo;m assuming many of your listeners are in their twenties or early thirties.\nIf someone had said that to me in my twenties, I would have gone, \u0026ldquo;Yeah, whatever.\u0026rdquo; But if you take away one thing, think about what makes you happy and how you can get more of it.\nJames: What you\u0026rsquo;ve shared is great. As you were saying, asking only what will make you happy in the short term may not lead to the best option. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard that if you extend the timeframe for decisions—even around productivity—you see them differently. Instead of thinking, \u0026ldquo;I have to have this done by this time,\u0026rdquo; stretch the horizon to five or ten years. A particular day when you didn\u0026rsquo;t maximise every last bit, or taking a job where you had to work extremely hard, becomes less important when you\u0026rsquo;re considering where you want to be in the future.\nMel: What you just said is so important. If you have to make a big decision, give yourself the time you need and make it when you\u0026rsquo;re in the right headspace.\nIn one of my past jobs, I was a media manager in a government department. I learnt quickly that whenever a journalist rang looking for a quote, I would say, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s your question? I\u0026rsquo;ll get back to you,\u0026rdquo; so I could think about it, particularly if it concerned something that wasn\u0026rsquo;t great.\nMuch of the media I did at the time was great. I just wanted time to craft a response that would put my agency in the best possible light. If it was emotional, I needed time to consider what I would say and the most appropriate response to satisfy both them and us.\nI learnt that you should do this not only with little decisions but with all decisions, especially big ones. It\u0026rsquo;s also important to delay a decision if you don\u0026rsquo;t need to make it now. My husband and I moved from Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast last year, and we\u0026rsquo;d talked a lot about what we would do when my stepson finished high school.\nWe started the conversation when he was in Year 7, brainstormed ideas and then parked it. We said, \u0026ldquo;We don\u0026rsquo;t need to make a decision for another five, seven or perhaps even ten years.\n\u0026ldquo;Let\u0026rsquo;s touch base every two or three years, see where we are and reassess.\u0026rdquo; When the time came, we considered many options and were much clearer about what we both wanted and what would work for us. That\u0026rsquo;s an extreme example of delaying a decision.\nBut even if you receive a job offer that means moving, leaving a company you love or making another big change, don\u0026rsquo;t feel you need to say yes immediately. Take some time. Ask for references from people who work in the organisation and do your own due diligence before deciding.\nEven something as simple as taking two pieces of paper, writing the pros on one and the cons on the other, and then ranking them can show what comes out on top. I wish I\u0026rsquo;d done that with a few decisions in my life.\nRanking Decisions # James: That\u0026rsquo;s a good strategy, and I\u0026rsquo;ve used it for many decisions. One was whether to go overseas on exchange at university. It was a fairly big decision: was I going to do this? I did go—to Sheffield in the UK, near Manchester.\nOn the pro side, it would be a fantastic experience. I\u0026rsquo;d meet new people, go to Europe and travel. The cons were that I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t see my friends for six months—which isn\u0026rsquo;t really that long—and money: how would I pay for it? That worked out as well. Clearly, the pros outweighed the cons. It was a rare opportunity, so I ended up going. Sitting down, identifying the pros and cons and actually thinking about them was useful, rather than going solely with my initial reaction.\nMel: I\u0026rsquo;m curious. You said one of the cons was leaving your friends. When you came home, had anything changed with your friends or their lives?\nI ask because I was an exchange student after finishing high school. I went for a year, which was something I\u0026rsquo;d always wanted to do. I changed so much during that year that I was shocked when I came home and nothing had changed. I thought, \u0026ldquo;How come nothing\u0026rsquo;s changed? I\u0026rsquo;ve changed.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: I had a similar experience. I went away as one version of James and returned as a different one. I have an Excel sheet with my university grades, and you can see that there was James, then James went on exchange, and afterwards he was completely different. The experience affected so many areas of my life, and I\u0026rsquo;m very glad I did it.\nMel: My year in Canada was one of the five best years of my life, perhaps even the top three. It influenced so much of my life. I went in 1988—33 or 34 years ago—and it still influences my life today.\nThere are decisions I would never have made without that year. It opened my eyes to the world in a completely different way: different perspectives, ways of seeing and doing things, and lifestyles. Canada, the UK and Australia aren\u0026rsquo;t that different on paper until you get there and realise they are.\nJames: For me, it was about getting out of my routines—the way I did things at home—and having to reset them.\nOne of my previous guests described it as having a bucket into which you put things as you go through life. When you go overseas or to a completely new place, you empty it out and get to put things back in, redesign how you run your life and reflect on what you\u0026rsquo;ve done.\nMel: Another huge thing for me was that I\u0026rsquo;d lived in the same community for much of my childhood and teenage years. People had known me for a long time and held preconceived ideas about who I was based on how I\u0026rsquo;d been as a younger child. Going to a country or city where nobody knows you is liberating. You can be whoever you want, do things you would never do, and take chances and risks you would never otherwise take.\nIf it all goes pear-shaped and you make a complete fool of yourself, you\u0026rsquo;re not there for long, so they\u0026rsquo;ll forget by the time you leave. It\u0026rsquo;s a great way to experiment with different aspects of life. I love it.\nHow does someone become a communications expert # James: I\u0026rsquo;d love to take the conversation in a different direction. Your current work in communications and leadership is impressive, and you\u0026rsquo;ve been recognised for it. How did you get into this kind of work? Presumably, you went from being an employee to becoming an expert in the field. What was the catalyst?\nMel: When I moved to Brisbane, I briefly worked on contract doing marketing for the Brisbane Festival. Then I worked for five years in the Queensland Government. I remember ringing my dad and saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve just got a job with the Queensland Government.\u0026rdquo;\nHe laughed so hard that he accidentally hung up. He said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re not government material. You\u0026rsquo;ve come out of corporate, and you\u0026rsquo;re not going to cope.\u0026rdquo; I told him I\u0026rsquo;d give it five years, and I lasted five and a half, which made me quite proud. But I needed a change.\nI\u0026rsquo;d seen Dad go from government to consulting and then working for himself, and watched him blossom and do work he loved every day. He and Mum taught my brother and me that life is short: you have to do what you love. If you don\u0026rsquo;t love what you do and the people you do it with, you need to make some changes.\nThat applied to big things, such as who you work with and the kind of work you do, through to your friendships and romantic relationships. If you don\u0026rsquo;t genuinely love most of what\u0026rsquo;s happening in your life, you have the control and power to make a difference.\nI reached a point in government and working for other people when I thought, \u0026ldquo;There\u0026rsquo;s got to be more to life than the drudgery of going to work every day.\u0026rdquo; I wanted to work part-time because I had many other interests and things I wanted to do, so I submitted an application.\nThe head of HR couldn\u0026rsquo;t understand why a woman in her thirties without children would want to work part-time, so my application was denied. I resigned and have never looked back. I\u0026rsquo;ve been working for myself for nearly 16 years, and I love it. It gives me complete freedom and flexibility to choose whom I work with, the work I do, and when and how I do it.\nAll those things have changed over the nearly 16 years I\u0026rsquo;ve worked for myself, and I\u0026rsquo;ve changed too. I\u0026rsquo;ve become more experienced and confident. I\u0026rsquo;m more confident asking for what I want; in fact, I know what I want, which I didn\u0026rsquo;t when I started. That comes with age and experience. As you get older, you become more confident and more willing to value what you\u0026rsquo;re worth.\nToday, I work with leaders and teams to help them become more connected so they can create real connection and sustained engagement. A major part of the work I\u0026rsquo;m starting to do with clients is helping them connect with themselves. How do you lead others if you can\u0026rsquo;t lead yourself? If you don\u0026rsquo;t lead yourself first, you won\u0026rsquo;t be as effective as you could be at leading a team or organisation.\nJames: There\u0026rsquo;s wisdom there, and I agree with much of what you\u0026rsquo;ve said. How does your previous experience with burnout and a corporate lifestyle that wasn\u0026rsquo;t what you wanted influence what you now do, teach and share? Is there a thread connecting those things?\nMel: In terms of how I work, I went for a swim at lunchtime at the beach because I could. I try to live what I teach.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not perfect at it by any stretch, but I think it\u0026rsquo;s important. Leaders today are extremely busy and face many pressures. It\u0026rsquo;s easy to get caught up in day-to-day busyness, and in other people\u0026rsquo;s demands and priorities, and forget to prioritise yourself.\nCOVID highlighted for many people that there were major aspects of their lives they weren\u0026rsquo;t happy with. I\u0026rsquo;m not saying people were happy with lockdown, but being forced to spend time with yourself makes you reevaluate what you love, what you don\u0026rsquo;t love and what\u0026rsquo;s important to you.\nWhy do you get up and go to work every day? Why are we doing it? What\u0026rsquo;s the ultimate benefit we want? What do we want people to remember us for when we\u0026rsquo;re no longer here?\nI\u0026rsquo;m trying to help my clients—and the broader world—think about those things. If you were to die tomorrow, what would you want people to say, think and remember about you? Does the way they currently see and remember you match what you want?\nDo you want to be remembered as a workaholic who never had time for his kids, or who was always grumpy at work because he was so stressed? Or do you want to be remembered as a great leader who listened, genuinely cared and walked the talk? That leader might say, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t want anybody here after six o\u0026rsquo;clock. If you can\u0026rsquo;t do your job in the reasonable time we have over the course of a week, let\u0026rsquo;s have a conversation and see what we can change.\u0026rdquo; I want to help people understand the questions they need to ask those in their lives:\n\u0026ldquo;What do you need from me to do your job better? What do you need from me to be a better person? What do you need from me to fulfil your goals? Do you even know what your goals are? If not, what do you need from me to help you work out what they might look like?\u0026rdquo;\nJames: I like that a lot. It\u0026rsquo;s a good way of looking at things: service first, rather than asking, \u0026ldquo;How can I gain from this relationship?\u0026rdquo;\nMel: Absolutely. As leaders, we\u0026rsquo;re here to serve. If leaders don\u0026rsquo;t have anyone to lead, they\u0026rsquo;re not leaders. You want the people under you—and that\u0026rsquo;s not the right way of describing it—to look up to you and say, \u0026ldquo;I want to be like that person.\u0026rdquo;\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve all had different managers and leaders. Some I remember clearly because they were amazing: they supported me and believed in me when I didn\u0026rsquo;t believe in myself. Others I remember because they were awful. I don\u0026rsquo;t want anyone to think of me as the awful leader, although I know some past staff will, because we all go through awful phases when we don\u0026rsquo;t know what we\u0026rsquo;re doing and we\u0026rsquo;re stressed and overwhelmed.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s important to remember. You have a book coming out soon, Fully Connected. Tell us what it\u0026rsquo;s about. In particular, what are the main principles you want readers to take from it?\nMel\u0026rsquo;s book, Fully Connected # Mel: The book is called Fully Connected: How Great Leaders Lead Themselves First. I look at why we need to lead ourselves first, what\u0026rsquo;s preventing us from doing so, and three ways to do it.\nThe first is becoming more self-aware and understanding your purpose, values, attitudes and behaviours. What are your strengths and weaknesses, and how can you capitalise on your strengths? How do people see and perceive you? Is your self-awareness good enough that you understand how others see you as a leader and a person?\nThe second is how to stay self-motivated. Motivation is terrific, but when it comes time to do the work, it tends to take a hike. What do you need to become motivated? I believe people are motivated by knowing their purpose and seeing their role in whatever they want to achieve in the world.\nBut what do you need to do to act, and how do you become disciplined enough for that motivation to help you achieve your goals?\nThe third part is self-care: developing a toolkit to look after yourself physically, mentally and emotionally. Self-awareness leads to self-care, and self-care leads to resilience. If you look after yourself physically, mentally and emotionally, you\u0026rsquo;ll cope far better when things are hard or turn to shit than if you haven\u0026rsquo;t looked after yourself.\nWhat stuck out to Mel while she was researching the book # James: Those areas are so important. As you\u0026rsquo;ve researched and written the book, what has been the most surprising thing you\u0026rsquo;ve learnt—perhaps something you discovered recently? What really stood out to you?\nMel: In senior leadership roles, I experienced real loneliness and thought it was just me. Then a whole heap of senior leaders, clients and friends said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really lonely at work.\u0026rdquo; I realised there was a big problem because we shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be lonely. That was enlightening: how do we make ourselves less lonely, while also ensuring our people feel that they belong at work?\nWhat can we do to help them feel valued, aligned with the organisation\u0026rsquo;s purpose and aligned with their own purpose, so they arrive able to do their best? I believe everybody wants to do their best. People don\u0026rsquo;t turn up thinking, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do a shitty job today.\u0026rdquo;\nOkay, some people probably do, but most don\u0026rsquo;t. People arrive wanting to be and do their best and wanting to succeed. Sometimes they don\u0026rsquo;t know how, and often they aren\u0026rsquo;t given the tools.\nYou can\u0026rsquo;t do your best without clear directions, if you don\u0026rsquo;t feel valued, or if you don\u0026rsquo;t feel there\u0026rsquo;s compassion in the organisation. You definitely can\u0026rsquo;t do your best if you\u0026rsquo;re stressed, overworked, overwhelmed and exhausted. It\u0026rsquo;s not possible.\nJames: The foundation you\u0026rsquo;re describing is important in many areas, whether it\u0026rsquo;s your work or your general life satisfaction. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t worked those three things out clearly, it\u0026rsquo;s almost an accident waiting to happen. You need to examine those areas and consider what you\u0026rsquo;re doing to keep them in good condition.\nMel: Exactly. It\u0026rsquo;s the same in every aspect of life. You can\u0026rsquo;t show up as the best person you want to be—for yourself, your partner, your kids or your friends—if you\u0026rsquo;re exhausted, overwhelmed, stressed, tired, hungry, hungover, uncertain or unclear. You asked before what my advice would be.\nI have a few pieces of advice. Give yourself something to look forward to every day, because anticipating something and then experiencing it gives you a massive dopamine hit and makes you feel good. I got this idea during COVID from a friend in Melbourne\u0026rsquo;s endless lockdowns.\nI asked, \u0026ldquo;How do you keep going?\u0026rdquo; She said, \u0026ldquo;Every night before bed, I think of something I love that I\u0026rsquo;m going to do tomorrow. I go to bed with anticipation and joy that tomorrow I\u0026rsquo;ll do this thing I love.\u0026rdquo; Some days, it might be half an hour of quiet time without her husband and children, reading a book she\u0026rsquo;d wanted to read for a long time.\nOr it might be planning special time with one of her children, or any number of things. She said, \u0026ldquo;None of the things I do for joy takes more than half an hour, but that\u0026rsquo;s enough to keep filling and refilling my cup.\u0026rdquo; I think that\u0026rsquo;s critical.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t been to the doctor in over a year, have a health check. Physical problems can also manifest mentally and emotionally. Make sure your body is in good working order. The health checks you need depend on your age, family history and how long it\u0026rsquo;s been since your last one.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t seen a dentist or doctor in over a year, have a check-up, get some basic blood tests and make sure everything is working. Get a skin check, because we live in Australia and many people develop nasty skin cancers.\nThird, think about the feather, brick and truck I mentioned earlier. Are any of those things happening in your life now?\nAre there any feathers you need to notice? Has the feather turned into a brick? Is the brick on the verge of becoming a truck? Think about what you can do to look after yourself better. Life is short, and hopefully you want to have a long one filled with joy, people you love and work you love.\nJames: I like that a lot. It\u0026rsquo;s an important analogy.\nMel: It\u0026rsquo;s a good one. I don\u0026rsquo;t know where I read it, so I\u0026rsquo;m sorry to whoever came up with the idea.\nMel\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: That leads to my last question, which you\u0026rsquo;ve partly answered. I ask every guest: what advice would you give someone just starting their career? Given all you know now, if you could wind back the clock and start again, what advice would you give yourself?\nMel: Listen to your instincts, because they\u0026rsquo;re very rarely wrong. That would be my number one piece of advice. If your gut is saying, \u0026ldquo;This isn\u0026rsquo;t quite right,\u0026rdquo; ask questions and listen to it.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s important. You\u0026rsquo;ve got the mind and the heart, and both are powerful. You have to listen to them.\nMel: There\u0026rsquo;s a mind–gut connection. So much research now shows a close link between what happens in our gut and what happens in our brain.\nThere are some good books, none of whose names I can remember. Research over the last 20 years has shown a strong connection between the mind, brain and gut. If you\u0026rsquo;re interested, do some research and learn more, but I believe you should listen to your instinct.\nWe all have an instinct, like a sixth sense, so pay attention. You might call it your spidey senses or the tingles on the back of your neck. In my experience, they\u0026rsquo;re not usually wrong.\nWhere to contact Mel # James: That\u0026rsquo;s so important. Thanks for sharing it with us today, Mel. It\u0026rsquo;s been fantastic to have you on and hear your thoughts. We\u0026rsquo;ve covered so much, and you\u0026rsquo;ve shared a lot of wisdom. If the audience wants to learn more about you and your work, where is the best place to go?\nMel: My website, melkettle.com, is probably the best place. It\u0026rsquo;s currently being overhauled, so if you look in the next few weeks, come back a month later and you\u0026rsquo;ll see it shiny, sparkly and new. I\u0026rsquo;m also active on most social media platforms. I love LinkedIn and Twitter.\nI\u0026rsquo;m trying to love Instagram a little more. If you Google me, you\u0026rsquo;ll find me, and I\u0026rsquo;m always happy to chat. If you have questions or want to know anything else, please get in touch.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and everything I learnt from the episode, go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe and get all the information about each episode sent straight to your inbox.\nThanks again for listening today. We look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 24\n","date":"4 April 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/24-on-avoiding-career-traps-and-burnout-with-mel-kettle/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 24\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Avoiding Career Traps and Burnout with Mel Kettle","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #23 of Graduate Theory. Web3 is taking over the world, and today\u0026rsquo;s guest is right in the thick of it. Listen as we discuss Web3, culture and remote work.\nGet these takeaways direct to your inbox every single week by subscribing now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nJosh Reyes is a serial entrepreneur who recently raised a 650k pre-seed round to work on a web3 startup that he co-founded called Minke.\nHe was previously the first employee and head of growth at SmartrMail, where he scaled the team to $2M ARR and 20+ employees\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Starting from the bottom # Josh had an interesting approach to his career. Rather than joining a large company, as is the norm, he joined a startup as the first employee.\nWith this in mind, he gave his thoughts on starting at a startup in this way in comparison to working at a big corporate.\nSo going into an early stage startup, I was able to do a lot and it allowed me to actually explore what I wanted to do and like what\u0026rsquo;s my role and what my strengths were within a company.\nBig companies provide great training, but they also mean you don\u0026rsquo;t get to do as wide of a variety of tasks.\nBeing the first employee, Josh got to work across the entire business side of the company. This meant he had the unique opportunity to learn a wide range of new skills. More than he would have been able to at a big company.\nBe Proactive # Starting a new job fully remote can be tough. Josh gave some good advice for those of us in this situation when it comes to making new connections at work.\nEven though you might be in a remote company, this does not mean that people at work have no desire to socialise.\neven though you\u0026rsquo;re a grad and you have like a hunger to meet people, even people that are mid thirties they just don\u0026rsquo;t want to work all day at home and not talk to anybody.\nPeople want to talk (even on video calls). If you\u0026rsquo;re in this situation, get out there and start booking some time in calendars!\nLearn to Write (and share) # Josh had over 200+ applicants for his marketing intern position. Competition for Web3 jobs is extremely high.\nSo how can we go about differentiating ourselves in the marketplace?\nJosh says the keys are learning to write about web3 and sharing that in public.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s hard to explain what we do to everyday people and to make it approachable and transparent for them. And writing is such a strong, important skill to for us as companies to, to acquire. So just being public about your learning journey, if you\u0026rsquo;re, they can give, getting into web three and. Researching it yourself, just write about it. And when you apply for a job share, share it.\nWhen learning about Web3, go deep into rabbit holes, discover new things. Josh says that his team will check your wallets and see what you\u0026rsquo;ve been playing with in the ecosystem so they can see how much you know.\nGo deep, go wide and go far.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Josh # https://www.minke.app/\n📝 Show Timestamps # 00:00 Josh Reyes - Multicam 01:22 Starting Work as the First Employee 04:34 Super Early Stage or Corporate? 07:01 What are the unique opportunities that you get from working at an early stage company? 08:31 What do people undervalue about early-stage startups? 11:50 The Remote State of Minke 13:01 How do they handle \u0026lsquo;all person\u0026rsquo; remote meetings? 15:01 Company Culture in a Remote First Org 20:48 What is the future of remote work? 25:37 Advice for Graduates joining remote companies 29:43 What does Minke Do? 31:26 How does DeFi yield work? 37:12 Hiring as a Web3 company 39:19 How to differentiate yourself when applying for web3 roles 45:12 Contact Josh 46:04 Outro\n","date":"28 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/23-on-building-a-remote-career-in-web3-with-josh-reyes/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Good morning Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #23 of Graduate Theory. Web3 is taking over the world, and today’s guest is right in the thick of it. Listen as we discuss Web3, culture and remote work.\n","title":"On Building a Remote Career in Web3 with Josh Reyes","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 23\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJosh: You\u0026rsquo;re really young. I\u0026rsquo;ve now been out of uni for six or seven years, and I think that if you\u0026rsquo;re going to take that risk, you should do it early.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a serial entrepreneur who recently raised a $650,000 pre-seed round for a Web3 startup he co-founded called Minke. He was previously the first employee and head of growth at Smartmail, where he helped scale the company to $2 million in annual revenue and more than 20 employees.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s originally from Canada. Please welcome Josh Reyes.\nJosh: Thanks for having me, James.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on. Your pre-seed round was announced yesterday, so congratulations to you and the team. It\u0026rsquo;s a big milestone.\nJosh: It\u0026rsquo;s been great to finally get the news out there. We closed the round back in December, so having people congratulate us and get excited about what we\u0026rsquo;re building is always nice. It\u0026rsquo;s also awesome to go on podcasts like yours.\nStarting Work as the First Employee # James: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on. You\u0026rsquo;ve certainly had an interesting career, and I\u0026rsquo;m keen to dive into it. As I said in the introduction, you were Smartmail\u0026rsquo;s first employee. That was your first job, if I\u0026rsquo;m not mistaken, which is unusual so early in a career. What was your rationale for joining as the first employee, and how did it come about?\nJosh: My path was probably different from that of many people who get into that sort of role. I studied finance at uni, and in my last few semesters I was trying to find internships and looking for jobs. I\u0026rsquo;d always thought, “I really like finance as a topic and subject matter.”\nIt seemed like the natural conclusion that I would work in finance, but I found it didn\u0026rsquo;t suit me culturally or match what I believed work should be. I also grew up and studied in Vancouver. Unlike New York or Toronto, it isn\u0026rsquo;t a finance hub, so there were fewer roles and the market was more cutthroat.\nI had a few friends in graduate roles who were working in tech instead, and they all seemed happy. They didn\u0026rsquo;t work crazy hours, they seemed fulfilled, and they were working on exciting problems.\nI thought, “I need to do that,” but my finance skill set didn\u0026rsquo;t really match. In my last semester of uni, I taught myself marketing from performance-marketing and technical perspectives. That helped me get my first internship, assisting a Shopify store with a custom app.\nThe store was called Make. It was based in Vancouver and had a custom app that let you print designs on T-shirts, tote bags and similar products. You could bring in a design or upload it online. That gave me experience working with Shopify, its APIs and the apps built on it.\nMy work was more in marketing and product management, such as reporting bugs, but I understood how Shopify and APIs worked and had marketed an e-commerce store. When I moved from Canada to Australia, I wanted something stable, which doesn\u0026rsquo;t seem consistent with joining an early-stage startup.\nWhat I meant was that I wanted something I could pick up quickly. I thought that if I joined a startup I knew nothing about, there was a good chance I would get fired. If I joined one where I understood the problem it was trying to solve, along with the software and technology it was built on, I could hit the ground running and make an impact.\nI joined Smartmail as an intern and its first employee. The company hadn\u0026rsquo;t raised any money and had essentially no users. Over three months, we scaled to a significant number of users—I can\u0026rsquo;t remember the figure now—which helped the company attract some angel investment. I was then able to secure my first full-time startup role as its first employee.\nI helped grow it into something I\u0026rsquo;m proud of: more than 20 employees, serving about 25,000 merchants around the world, including many small businesses.\nSuper Early Stage or Corporate? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s exciting. Being the first employee and seeing that growth must be rewarding. How does that approach compare with the more common path of joining a large company through a graduate program or internship? Looking back, do you think joining a very early-stage startup was better for you, or would it have been more valuable to work for a large corporation?\nJosh: It depends on what you want. If you have a good idea of the field you want to work in, a larger corporation can offer great training programs for specific areas such as marketing, product management or development.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a structured approach. If you\u0026rsquo;re set on a field and have friends who seem happy in that role, or you\u0026rsquo;ve done some work experience, it could be a good option. From my perspective, I simply knew I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to work in finance and did want to work in tech.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t even know whether I wanted to work in marketing. Marketing seemed the easiest route into tech for someone without formal study or technical knowledge, because it was something you could teach yourself. At an early-stage startup, I was able to do a lot and explore the work I wanted to do, my role and my strengths within a company.\nMy work included customer support and product-management tasks. By the time I left Smartmail, I was head of growth, which I would describe as roughly 80% product management and 20% marketing. That early-stage experience exposed me to many different aspects of a company.\nIt helped me find something I enjoyed within tech and startups. Now that I\u0026rsquo;m a founder, I realise I particularly enjoyed being at that early stage: forming a company, its culture and its team, and then executing.\nWhat are the unique opportunities that you get from working at an early stage company? # James: That\u0026rsquo;s great. What unique opportunities do people get from working with these early-stage companies? You\u0026rsquo;ve touched on some already, but what are the biggest advantages?\nJosh: First, if you don\u0026rsquo;t know what you want to do, you can experiment with many things and be upfront about that. Generally, at an early-stage startup, you can\u0026rsquo;t expect a very high salary. In return, a good startup should give you an amazing learning experience and the flexibility to explore the work that interests you.\nBe honest and say, “I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I want to do,” or, “These are the things I want to experiment with.” If the startup is open to it, it will usually give you small opportunities in those areas. You can also make a visible impact. When you\u0026rsquo;re starting from zero, adding one or two customers makes a huge difference. At a billion-dollar company, or a traditional company that\u0026rsquo;s been around for 50 years, your day-to-day impact might be felt within your team but can be hard to see at a company-wide scale. At a startup, you see it every day—especially at a very early-stage company with no customers, where every new customer matters.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s like a little party in the office because you\u0026rsquo;re getting started and beginning to turn the flywheel towards adoption.\nWhat do people undervalue about early stage startups? # James: That early-stage environment is hard to beat. It\u0026rsquo;s exciting to be around a company as it grows and gets things done. What do people undervalue about working at this stage? People often say it\u0026rsquo;s risky to be the first employee: what happens if it fails, and why not join a more stable company with established revenue? What does that view miss?\nJosh: First, people undervalue the opportunity afforded by their stage of life. When you enter a graduate role, you\u0026rsquo;re very young. I\u0026rsquo;ve now been out of uni for six or seven years, and I think that if you\u0026rsquo;re going to take this risk, you should take it early. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily recommend doing it at my age.\nOf course, I\u0026rsquo;m now starting a company, so perhaps that\u0026rsquo;s even crazier. The risk becomes harder to take as you get older. You may have family commitments, a mortgage, higher rent or simply a higher standard of living after working in a corporate role for a long time.\nThe decision gets harder. The best time may be when you\u0026rsquo;re young, perhaps still living at your parents\u0026rsquo; house, when your friends aren\u0026rsquo;t earning much either and you\u0026rsquo;re all eating at the cheapest places on weekends. A low salary matters less then.\nPeople undervalue that window in their careers when they can make this decision. From a rational perspective, the ages of 21, 22 or perhaps 23 are an ideal time. If the startup goes pear-shaped, you\u0026rsquo;ve still gained a lot of experience.\nHopefully, you have a better idea of what you want to do and have made an impact at a company. In your next job search, you can say, “This is what I did, and this is the result it created.” That can be hard to demonstrate in a large corporation because you may never see the outcome of the broader corporate strategy.\nYou might spend six or seven months on something that produces no result and is never launched because of bureaucracy. Startup work gives you valuable résumé-building skills and accomplishments—I\u0026rsquo;m not sure what the term is—that you can carry throughout your career and into your next role.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also an extremely competitive market for employers, and it\u0026rsquo;s difficult to find skilled employees. If the startup you join goes pear-shaped within a year, I don\u0026rsquo;t think the market will change so much that you\u0026rsquo;ll struggle to find another job. There are many roles available.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a good time to be a graduate.\nThe Remote State of Minke # James: People starting their careers now are often working in distributed teams, away from their colleagues. Is that the case for your company? Do you work together in person, or are you fully remote?\nJosh: We have a hot-desk space here in Melbourne where our current marketing intern and I work. The goal for Minke is never to have a headquarters. We want to be global from day one, both in how we market and distribute our product and in how we build the company. We hire people regardless of where they live.\nWe don\u0026rsquo;t even consider time zones. We learned to work asynchronously in our previous roles. Right now, the eight of us are spread across Australia, Portugal, the UK, Japan and Brazil. That range of time zones sounds crazy and sometimes requires flexibility, but Smartmail was also remote from day one.\nIts two co-founders were in Melbourne and Adelaide. That\u0026rsquo;s different from working across countries, but in a way it\u0026rsquo;s the only way I know how to work. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t imagine working any other way.\nHow do they handle \u0026lsquo;all person\u0026rsquo; remote meetings? # James: How do you structure that asynchronous work? In traditional agile—or whatever working style you use—there are usually meetings where everyone is present. What different approaches do you take to ensure everyone stays across the work?\nJosh: We do have all-hands meetings. The occasions when everyone can join a Zoom call are extremely valuable, so you have to use that time deliberately. We have one all-hands meeting each week to cover company updates. Sometimes each person gives an update; at other times, one person presents something they need to share with the team. Day to day, we rely on many tools. Slack is the main one, because instant messaging makes it easy to communicate with teammates, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t the only tool you need. Loom, which has emerged in the past few years, lets you make screen recordings that include your face.\nYou can talk through exactly what you\u0026rsquo;re doing and add a personal touch because your face is on the screen, then hand the work to the next person when they start their day. I\u0026rsquo;ve worked remotely for six years, and although Loom has only been around for the past couple of years, I can\u0026rsquo;t imagine how I worked without it. It\u0026rsquo;s a must-have tool.\nIt also makes the company feel as though it never sleeps. It isn\u0026rsquo;t a business that opens at nine and closes at five; work is being done at every time of day, which makes the company feel as though it\u0026rsquo;s moving very quickly.\nCompany Culture in a Remote First Org # James: I haven\u0026rsquo;t used Loom much, but I\u0026rsquo;ve heard good things and might have to test it. Beyond your weekly all-hands meeting, how do you build company culture? Is that more difficult when you aren\u0026rsquo;t together in person?\nJosh: It is, and graduates should be aware of that. Many people want to leave uni and join a large corporation. One advantage of doing so is that many colleagues are your age, so you can make a lot of friends.\nYou can become part of that culture, which is harder in a remote environment. The companies doing remote work best have generally done it for a long time, including Basecamp, Loom, Zapier and GitLab. Although almost every company has used some form of remote work since COVID, these outstanding companies reached billion-dollar valuations after working remotely from their inception.\nChoose a company that has done it for a while, because remote work is hard to get right. The best approach depends on the team, its culture and the people in it: some people may like meetings, while some company cultures don\u0026rsquo;t. Working with experienced people who can tailor the remote experience to a particular team and culture is important. My co-founder Marcus and I are good at that because we faced the same situation at Smartmail. In addition to all-hands meetings, we organise other activities. For example, the app launches publicly next week, so we\u0026rsquo;re holding a launch party for our still-new team.\nMarcus and I only started working on it in August last year, and the first pull request was in September. Each new team member has introduced themselves as a person, not merely as an employee, but we haven\u0026rsquo;t had the chance to get to know everyone fully.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re doing activities such as trivia about ourselves or our countries, so people can learn about where their colleagues come from, as well as virtual coffee meet-ups. We either book extra time or occasionally skip a stand-up, ask everyone to post what they\u0026rsquo;re working on in Slack, and use the time differently.\nWe go into breakout rooms of two or three people and talk about things other than work. If it\u0026rsquo;s late where you are, perhaps you have a beer; if it\u0026rsquo;s early, perhaps a coffee.\nJames: You can\u0026rsquo;t simply put an in-person working environment online and expect everything to work as before. You have to make time to catch up with colleagues and do things that would happen naturally in person.\nJosh: There still needs to be a physical element. During my time at Smartmail, we had three retreats: a developer retreat in Lithuania, an all-team retreat in Portugal and, during COVID, smaller retreats in Cyprus for the European team and Rio de Janeiro for the South and North American teams, because we couldn\u0026rsquo;t all meet in Melbourne.\nThese in-person events may happen only once or twice a year, but they are important because Slack doesn\u0026rsquo;t convey someone\u0026rsquo;s tone of voice. At a high-growth startup with demanding conditions, things can sometimes get heated.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t understand someone\u0026rsquo;s tone, you can misread the situation and their intent. Once you meet that person in real life and learn how they speak, you can almost hear their voice when you read their Slack messages.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s extremely important, and as Minke grows this year we aim to have an in-person meet-up. You can also organise smaller gatherings. If your developers are all in Europe and your marketing team is in the US, you can hold one all-team retreat each year in a single location.\nAt another point during the year, the developers can meet in Europe and the marketers somewhere in Canada. Companies sometimes say this is expensive, but office space is also expensive. If you run retreats efficiently—particularly as an early-stage company—and are comfortable sharing an Airbnb in Los Angeles where ten people might share two bathrooms, they needn\u0026rsquo;t cost that much. You can only do that with a close-knit team, but it might cost $20,000 to $25,000 to bring everyone together. That\u0026rsquo;s no more, and perhaps less, than we would spend on Melbourne office space for a year.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so through the link in the show notes. The newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.\nBut without further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get back into it.\nWhat is the future of remote work? # James: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to see the innovations that have emerged from the explosion in remote work over the past few years. You value an in-person element and want to hold retreats. Is the future of work a model where teams meet once or twice a year and otherwise work remotely, or will companies return to putting everyone in one city to solve problems together?\nJosh: It depends on the business, but I think that\u0026rsquo;s the general trend in tech. It\u0026rsquo;s difficult to scale globally from a single location. Having people from different cultures and locations, with different mindsets and experiences, brings valuable perspectives to a team.\nI think teams that embrace this will scale fastest and most efficiently. At Minke, we use location-based pricing. Salaries may be very high in San Francisco or Australia, and we don\u0026rsquo;t pay those rates to every remote employee, but we aim to pay above the local market rate in places such as Brazil or Chile. That can still be much lower than an Australian salary. Talent is evenly distributed: someone in Chile or Brazil isn\u0026rsquo;t less skilled or talented than someone in Australia; they simply may not have had the same opportunities. If we can hire three extremely skilled people in Brazil for the cost of one in Australia, and have the structures needed to build a remote company, we can be more competitive.\nJames: It will be interesting to see how the global labour market changes over the next few years as talented people gain access to remote companies that don\u0026rsquo;t care where they live.\nJosh: I\u0026rsquo;m excited to see it too. Marcus and I have hired remotely for six years and managed hiring at Smartmail. The market has shifted. Previously, you found many developers throughout Asia; now the opportunity is moving west. Africa is a huge market, especially Nigeria. Lagos has become a major tech scene, with an explosion of high-quality candidates as large companies train people in the region.\nThe same is true of Latin America, a major fintech hub. Where banks may not be trusted, an explosion of local payment operators has produced neobanks operating at tremendous scale. Consider the population of a country such as Brazil. People with that experience can now work for companies such as Minke, Revolut or larger fintechs, bringing skills that are valuable and hard to find in Australia and helping our companies grow.\nJames: It goes both ways. Companies, especially in Western countries such as Australia and the US, gain access to talented people at lower cost, while those people gain access to opportunities that were previously unavailable. Remote work is a win-win for many people around the world.\nJosh: Sometimes people think this will simply mean people in the Global South taking our jobs, but it also creates opportunities. Working in crypto, I have friends employed by US and Asian crypto companies and exchanges.\nThe APEC market has tremendous growth potential. Australia is perfectly positioned to serve countries such as Indonesia and Malaysia while connecting in English with teams in the US. From a remote-work perspective, Australia has many exciting opportunities too.\nAdvice for Graduates joining remote companies # James: Suppose you\u0026rsquo;re a graduate, or simply early in your career, joining a remote-first company. Now that you\u0026rsquo;ve worked this way for a while and hire people into these roles, what advice would you give someone to help them settle in? It can be difficult to join a company where you aren\u0026rsquo;t physically with people. What can they do to get involved, know their colleagues and set themselves up well?\nJosh: First, be proactive. A team with remote experience can help with the cultural side and arrange meetings for you, but remember that everyone else is in the same situation. Although you may be a graduate eager to meet people, even people in their mid-thirties don\u0026rsquo;t want to work from home all day without talking to anyone.\nEveryone is in the same position and is usually happy to chat at the end of the day, perhaps knocking off half an hour early to have a beer together. People are generally more efficient when working remotely, so we\u0026rsquo;re flexible. Whether it\u0026rsquo;s Friday afternoon or during the week, you don\u0026rsquo;t have the water-cooler chats you would have in a conventional workplace.\nMessage someone on Slack and ask whether they want to have a beer or a chat. Nobody should feel they have to say, “It\u0026rsquo;s not five o\u0026rsquo;clock,” or, “I haven\u0026rsquo;t worked eight hours yet.” The social aspect is part of work. Companies should recognise that, remain flexible and allow people to take those opportunities proactively. Everybody is in the same position; we all value social interaction.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s important. I recently worked remotely for six months, and it was an eye-opener. In an office, some social contact is unavoidable. When you\u0026rsquo;re remote, you have to be proactive and connect with colleagues so that work retains a social dimension. Otherwise, you simply tick off your Jira tickets and leave without becoming involved in the broader mission or company.\nJosh: Finding startups or people with long experience of remote work can be difficult. Smartmail went through the same accelerator that Minke is going through now, back in 2017.\nWe were the only remote company then, and everyone thought we were crazy and asked how we did it. Five years later, there are many remote companies in our cohort. Even so, founders can find it difficult to build this culture while also building a high-growth startup.\nRead books by people such as Basecamp\u0026rsquo;s DHH and Jason Fried. They\u0026rsquo;ve written a book called Remote, and there are several other books about company culture and building a remote company. Read them yourself and try to implement the ideas within your team.\nIf you feel the company isn\u0026rsquo;t doing something it should, reach out. People at a startup generally want to create a great working experience for everyone.\nJames: Those sound like useful resources. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to run a company to apply them; you can start within your own team if you work remotely.\nWhat does Minke Do? # James: I\u0026rsquo;ll look them up tonight. Let\u0026rsquo;s talk more about what you\u0026rsquo;re working on. Minke is an app. What exactly is the product, and what benefits does it offer its users?\nJosh: With Minke, we aim to offer the easiest way to save, earn and invest with DeFi on mobile. The product is a Web3 wallet, similar to MetaMask, which you might have used to buy your first NFT, but designed to look and feel like your favourite fintech app.\nThat might be Revolut in the UK and elsewhere, or Up, which is popular with young Australians. Rather than using crypto-native language and jargon, we take something that looks like a banking app and power it entirely with crypto and DeFi.\nBy doing that in a decentralised way, we give people direct access to lending and borrowing protocols. With Minke, you can save through protocols such as Aave and mStable, which last year offered a variable rate averaging 8%—about 40 times higher than a bank.\nThis year, given the macroeconomic situation with Russia and Ukraine, the rate is trending lower as fewer people want to take on leverage. Even so, you can earn around 3% to 5%, which is 10 to 20 times higher than a bank. With inflation, money in a conventional savings account is effectively going backwards.\nHow does DeFi yield work? # James: This might be a technical question, because I don\u0026rsquo;t know a great deal about how it works, but where does the yield come from and why is it so high compared with a traditional bank?\nJosh: We provide access to lending and borrowing protocols that work like peer-to-peer lending. A bank takes your savings and lends them to borrowers. Here, you\u0026rsquo;re doing the same thing, but instead of a bank with a huge building and more than 100,000 employees, a smart contract enables it.\nYour money goes into a pool from which borrowers can borrow. The rate is higher partly because of efficiency: you don\u0026rsquo;t need all the compliance and physical infrastructure of a banking operation. The other factor is the price people are willing to pay to borrow in the cryptosphere.\nBorrowers are generally seeking leverage to buy more crypto. They may hold Ethereum or Bitcoin in the form of wrapped Bitcoin and not want to sell it, so they deposit it into these protocols as collateral. They might deposit $1,000 worth of Bitcoin and borrow $500 against it.\nThat $500 comes from your US-dollar savings. They can use it as liquidity to buy new boots, or to buy more Bitcoin and gain more leverage.\nJames: What happens if someone borrows from the pool and is unable to repay the loan?\nJosh: I should add one point. The rate is also higher because borrowers are essentially wholesale debanked from traditional finance. If you\u0026rsquo;re a crypto company, it\u0026rsquo;s difficult even to get a bank account. We were lucky to get one.\nI won\u0026rsquo;t name the bank because I don\u0026rsquo;t want it to close our account; our applications to three others were unsuccessful. The same problem applies to borrowing and lending. Because liquidity and leverage are difficult to obtain, crypto companies are willing to pay more for them. A consumer might get a mortgage at 3%, but a crypto company can\u0026rsquo;t borrow at the same rates available in traditional finance.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why rates can be 8% or 9%, for example. If you\u0026rsquo;re unable to repay a loan, the process is automated and based on your collateral. Everything is overcollateralised: to borrow $500, you might deposit $1,000 worth of collateral. If the price of Bitcoin falls to the point where that collateral approaches the value of the loan, part of the collateral is automatically sold back into the market. People who want to buy Bitcoin can purchase 50% of it at a small discount, creating an arbitrage opportunity.\nI think the discount is 6% against the market price. The proceeds from the sale repay part of the loan, bringing it back into good standing.\nJames: That sounds good. Perhaps I should put my house savings into crypto instead—maybe not. Who knows? Perhaps one day.\nJosh: It is safe in the sense that these protocols are well battle-tested. For perspective, Aave and Compound, two lending and borrowing protocols, have more than US$20 billion locked in them. Judged by assets held, that would place them among the top 100 US banks. Yet they have only come to prominence in the past two and a half years and were created about five years ago. That\u0026rsquo;s remarkable when some banks have existed for longer than anyone can remember.\nThey are the first worthy competitor to traditional finance. Over the past 20 years, technology has overturned the corporate world. The biggest companies used to include ExxonMobil; now they include Amazon, Apple and Microsoft. Everything is tech.\nYet the largest US banks in the 1970s remain the largest banks today. In Australia, the largest banks have long included CommBank and ANZ. Technology hasn\u0026rsquo;t transformed them; they are legacy institutions ingrained in our daily lives.\nNow there is an alternative with the efficiency of smart-contract applications. Losing $20 billion would be disastrous for DeFi, but that figure also shows how battle-tested these protocols are. In two and a half years, total value locked across DeFi grew from about $1 billion to more than $100 billion.\nIf nobody has been able to steal a piece of the pie from these major protocols, they are clearly doing something right.\nHiring as a Web3 company # James: Speaking of Web3, you\u0026rsquo;re the founder of a company that\u0026rsquo;s hiring. What is it like to hire for a Web3 company today?\nJosh: It\u0026rsquo;s fun because it reminds me of getting my first role at Smartmail with essentially no marketing experience or background. Web3 is a new industry. I think MIT has a program, but the field is at such an early stage that almost nobody has formally studied Web3 or crypto.\nMost people are breaking in for the first time. The industry has been building for roughly five years, so some people now move between roles, but the vast majority are getting their first job in crypto. That\u0026rsquo;s fun from a hiring perspective.\nI enjoy seeing people rush into an industry that both they and I care about. Our marketing-lead position was, I think, the first role we advertised, and almost nobody knew about us.\nWe received more than 250 applications. In Web2, that would be an amazing result, likely requiring thousands of dollars in job advertising. In crypto and Web3, so many people want to enter the industry that this enthusiasm is a blessing for us as a company.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s certainly interesting. Web3 is a relatively new space, and you\u0026rsquo;ve gone through the learning process yourself. If someone wants a role at a Web3 company, how can they learn about the field and differentiate themselves from the other applicants?\nHow to differentiate yourself when applying for web3 roles # James: What can they do before applying to demonstrate that they know what they\u0026rsquo;re doing?\nJosh: Make your learning journey public. Be intentional and say, “I\u0026rsquo;m learning about this.” Run a blog or publish LinkedIn posts about what you\u0026rsquo;re learning and the new things you discover each day. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t all have to be correct. From a hiring perspective, it\u0026rsquo;s valuable to see someone go down the rabbit hole and demonstrate curiosity and writing skills. This is a technically focused industry with developer and crypto-native origins, so explaining what we do to everyday people in an approachable, transparent way is difficult.\nWriting is therefore an important skill for companies to acquire. If you\u0026rsquo;re researching Web3, write publicly about the journey and share that writing when you apply for a job, even if you\u0026rsquo;re slightly embarrassed because you\u0026rsquo;re new to the subject.\nWe like seeing people go down the rabbit hole as we did five or six years ago.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s important, particularly in Web3, where there isn\u0026rsquo;t much of a barrier to learning. You can become active in the space and learn a great deal. Unlike a long-established field such as finance, with an endless number of rabbit holes, crypto is young enough that you can become reasonably knowledgeable quite quickly if you\u0026rsquo;re willing to dive into its communities and technology.\nJosh: Another piece of advice is to use the tools. The blockchain is public, so in addition to reading what you\u0026rsquo;ve written, hirers can see your activity. A common Twitter trend is to put your .eth name in your profile. We can look it up and see what you\u0026rsquo;ve bought, your transactions and the tools you use. This is more difficult than when I started because gas fees—the transaction fees on Ethereum—were much lower when the network had less volume.\nYou might once have spent a few dollars on a transaction; now, buying an NFT or making a DeFi transaction on the Ethereum mainnet can cost up to $100, which can be prohibitive for a graduate. Layer-two networks now maintain Ethereum\u0026rsquo;s security while allowing much faster transactions at lower cost.\nYou can use many of the same DeFi protocols, or buy NFTs, on networks such as Optimism, Arbitrum and Polygon. When we hire, we look at that activity. We don\u0026rsquo;t just look at Etherscan for Ethereum; we look across the different chains you use.\nEven if you\u0026rsquo;re on Binance Chain, which may not be as decentralised as we\u0026rsquo;d like or as popular among crypto\u0026rsquo;s old guard, it\u0026rsquo;s good to see that you use and understand the tools. Going on the journey and down the rabbit hole is the most enjoyable part.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re happy to help people reach the point we\u0026rsquo;re at too.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one final question about your career. Do you have any advice for graduates starting work this year as they enter a world of crypto, remote work and other emerging trends?\nJosh: I\u0026rsquo;ll strongly advocate for crypto. I think it is very much the future. The amount of talent rushing into the industry is unfathomable. I left a full-time Web2 job just over a year ago, and now I\u0026rsquo;m deeply involved in working, hiring and experimenting in this industry.\nWhen Marcus and I started the company, we said this might be our last chance to arrive early and help define our vision for the industry. The same principle applied when I joined an early-stage startup.\nI had strong beliefs about what work and company culture should be like, based on reading books and talking to friends. I still have strong beliefs about work, as well as about what the future of Web3, crypto and the internet should be.\nIf you have values and beliefs that you want to apply to this industry, the idea may sound crazy, but I think the next three to five years may be the last period when you can make an impact and express those values at a scale that could affect millions or billions of people.\nJames: There it is, everyone: your call to enter Web3. It\u0026rsquo;s a fascinating field attracting a great deal of talent, with new developments every day. That will probably remain true for some time.\nContact Josh # James: I agree. Thank you for coming on today and sharing your wisdom, Josh. I\u0026rsquo;ve enjoyed hearing your thoughts on these topics. If people want to learn more about you and your work, where should they go?\nJosh: I\u0026rsquo;m on Twitter at @vancityreyes, similar to Ryan Reynolds\u0026rsquo;s @VancityReynolds handle. “Vancity” refers to Vancouver. You can also find us at Minke.app, which I assume will be in the show notes. Visit the site and send a support ticket if you\u0026rsquo;d like to chat with me. I\u0026rsquo;m more than happy to talk or point you in the right direction.\nJames: Fantastic. Thanks again. It\u0026rsquo;s been a great conversation.\nJosh: Thanks, James. Thanks for having me.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and what I learnt from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll receive my takeaways and information about each episode straight in your inbox.\nThanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 23\n","date":"28 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/23-on-building-a-remote-career-in-web3-with-josh-reyes/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 23\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Building a Remote Career in Web3 with Josh Reyes","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis is episode #22 of Graduate Theory. This is a powerful episode, one that I learned so much from, and one that I recommend everyone listens to.\nGet all this goodness direct to your inbox every single week by subscribing now 👇\nSubscribe Now\nJosh Farr is the founder of Campus Consultancy. He has worked with more than 21,000 leaders across schools, universities, non-profits and corporates. He gives more than 300 presentations per year, including a TEDx talk and speaking at the Australasian Talent Conference Digital 2020.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Strengths have sweet spots # Too little kindness is good.\nToo much kindness is not so good.\nWhere is the balance?\nIn the episode, Josh outlines the idea that strengths have sweets spots, and too much of something isn\u0026rsquo;t as good as it seems.\nHonesty is a strength. If you go to your local barista and criticize them for the cup of coffee, you\u0026rsquo;re just a jerk, right? Like too much. Honesty is not a good thing. Honesty is a good thing too little is not a good thing. So I think strengths kind of have this sweet spot.\nJust because something is a strength, does not mean you should dial your use of it up to 100.\nStrengths have weaknesses too.\nMost People Don\u0026rsquo;t Like Their Jobs # When I heard this it took me a moment to take it in.\nMany people across Australia do not love their jobs.\nthe Australian workforce data from Gallup says out of every five Ozzie workers, less than one of them under 40 loves. Like people need to know that if you look at, if you sit down with five of your buddies, statistically, four of them, and part of you, don\u0026rsquo;t like what you do as I\u0026rsquo;m like that\u0026rsquo;s depressing\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t like what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, it\u0026rsquo;s important to ask yourself why you feel that way.\nThen, it\u0026rsquo;s important to act on that feeling. Just like Josh, you can get out of your comfort zone and seek a calling outside yourself.\nIt’s not about \u0026ldquo;Me\u0026rdquo;, it’s about \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rdquo; # Josh found great meaning in not just doing things for himself but doing things for the community.\nwhat if every day I was helping lots of as many people as I can in a meaningful way, and just nudging people along on their journey, whether that\u0026rsquo;s in leadership or career or handing out suppliers\nThis is a call for all of us. How can we go out into the world and make it even just slightly better for everyone?\nHow can you do that today?\nAnd so my metric for a meaningful career said, can I do something that\u0026rsquo;s just net positive, but who knows how much you can help people, but can I just do something that\u0026rsquo;s net positive [\u0026hellip;] and can I show up every day and try to help?\nLife 5 Seasons at a Time # how can we think about life in a way that sets us up for success? Josh\u0026rsquo;s tip is to think about life in terms of seasons.\nBreaking up a 40-year career into 5 seasons makes it less daunting, and you\u0026rsquo;re better able to prepare for the journey ahead.\nSo way to think about it is firstly, like what would I be really not, what do I want to be doing? But what would I be proud to have done in the next five years?\nThe next step, is how can we make this journey into one that we can\u0026rsquo;t lose?\nThe solution? Think about what experiences or skills you\u0026rsquo;d like to have that would make it a win no matter what.\njust in the next five years, who do I want to help? What could I learn about, like, what can I become a mini expert in, in five years? And then what skills or experience could I have? So I, this is a win for me, no matter what\nThe Reason for Careers # But the point of a career is to end unnecessary suffering. So if you\u0026rsquo;re not sure what you want to do, try to end the unnecessary suffering. What does that mean? Find some suffering, find someone that\u0026rsquo;s struggling, find something that shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be suffering, like where we have a resourcefulness problem, not a resource problem.\nThe Power of Proximity # One of Josh\u0026rsquo;s key learnings came when he was volunteering in Turkey. He saw real people facing real problems, and that changed his perspective.\nHis advice is to get out there and see problems first hand.\nLike for me, I needed that smack of like, Hey, there are real problems out here and you can do something about that. And it\u0026rsquo;s not overly like palatable, but it was really practical. And that gap between what I thought I wanted and what I needed became really apparent.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Josh # https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdfarr/\n📝 Show Timestamps # 00:00 Josh Farr\n00:56 Josh\u0026rsquo;s Grad Program Experience\n07:54 The Social Pressure of High Achievement\n17:31 Leaving his Career as an Engineer\n23:14 How Josh Found his Passion\n30:10 Josh\u0026rsquo;s Powerful Volunteering Experience\n36:59 What is Josh Working on Today\n42:18 What am I going to do with my life?\n46:37 Josh\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n51:08 Outro\n","date":"21 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/22-on-finding-your-mission-with-josh-farr/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis is episode #22 of Graduate Theory. This is a powerful episode, one that I learned so much from, and one that I recommend everyone listens to.\n","title":"On Finding Your Mission with Josh Farr","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 22\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJosh: My metric for a meaningful career became: can I do something that\u0026rsquo;s net positive? Who knows how much you can help people, but can I show up every day and try? In one night, my entire view of that changed.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is the founder of Campus Consultancy. He\u0026rsquo;s worked with more than 21,000 leaders across schools, universities, non-profits and corporations, and gives more than 300 presentations each year, including TEDx talks and a presentation at Australasian Talent Conference Digital 2020. He\u0026rsquo;s a former engineer with experience in graduate recruitment. Please welcome Josh Farr.\nJosh: Hi, James. Thanks for having me.\nJosh\u0026rsquo;s Grad Program Experience # James: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on. You have unique and exciting experience in many areas, and I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to discussing it. One thing I noticed on your LinkedIn was what you did during your graduate program. Correct me if I\u0026rsquo;m wrong, but Lendlease\u0026rsquo;s program normally takes two years and you completed it more quickly. I\u0026rsquo;d like to hear about your experience as a graduate and how that came about.\nJosh: Thanks again for having me. The punchline is that Lendlease rejected me from its graduate program before I joined the same program that year. I didn\u0026rsquo;t even get an interview, so I\u0026rsquo;ve always joked that, given I\u0026rsquo;m no longer an engineer, perhaps they were right not to offer me a role.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s definitely not a criticism. Lendlease is an enormous, ASX-listed, tier-one engineering company with a market capitalisation of $3.5 billion. Perhaps I should explain how I originally applied.\nI sent in an application as everyone does at the end of uni: you write a résumé and cover letter, then hit submit. They responded, “Due to the high calibre of applicants, we are not going to progress.” I thought, “Damn, another one.” Until then, I had done everything right at uni.\nI had good grades, a couple of scholarships, work experience, ten volunteering roles and a respectable résumé, yet I didn\u0026rsquo;t get in. As the rejections continued, I realised I didn\u0026rsquo;t know how to get a job. I had done plenty of engineering work but little career planning.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t really know what I wanted to do and was still jumping through hoops. I joke that in first year, when university is difficult, everyone says, “Don\u0026rsquo;t worry, second year will get better.” Then you reach second year, find it difficult and hear, “Don\u0026rsquo;t worry, third year will get better.” It was turtles all the way down. Despite the rejections, I went to an engineering camp while serving as president of the civil engineering society.\nWe ran the camp for first-year students and invited my friend Mike, an engineering graduate, to give them a commencement-style speech. Mike is still with Lendlease today. He loves engineering and is its poster boy.\nTo cut a long story short, he eventually helped me get a job through the back door. I joined a smaller company, Baulderstone, which was then acquired by Lendlease. I suddenly found myself in the Lendlease graduate program.\nI went from a small, agile company where I had tremendous responsibility to retaining that responsibility while also confronting the bureaucracy of an enormous organisation with dozens of graduate requirements. They placed a booklet in front of me containing more than 120 things I had to complete to be certified as a graduate.\nThey said, “You\u0026rsquo;ve got two years to do it. Good luck.”\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s remarkable: you were rejected, yet found yourself back in the company completing the program. A checklist of 120 items is an unusual way to define completion; these programs are often time-based.\nJosh: The program was meant to take a couple of years. Engineering is extremely hierarchical. What did you study at uni?\nJames: I did maths and finance.\nJosh: The closest comparison is probably a consulting firm, where you progress from associate to senior associate and onwards. Construction engineering works similarly: undergraduate engineer, graduate engineer, site engineer, project engineer, senior project engineer, construction manager, and eventually running your own project. I moved from undergraduate to graduate engineer and entered this two-year program, but my actual job was on an assigned site. I was hired to do that job, not to participate in the program.\nI was retrofitting the program to my site-engineering role. I was playing above my pay grade while having no idea what I was doing, so I had to figure it out. To complete the program, I had to demonstrate competence across all its different areas.\nThe nature of my site allowed me to tick them off quickly. I treated the program like a project, following the phrase, “How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.” I decided to arrive an hour to an hour and a half early as often as I could, allowing for those rainy mornings when you want to stay in bed.\nOn some days, I arrived at 4:00 am and spent an hour on one competency. If the requirement said, “Demonstrate knowledge of X,” and I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what X was, I researched it.\nI recorded it in my diary. Another requirement might be experience in—putting it very simply—digging a large hole. If my current work didn\u0026rsquo;t involve that, I spent the morning reviewing site documents and plans to find where that work would occur. I then approached the relevant team and explained that I needed the experience for my graduate program.\nI\u0026rsquo;d say, “I know you\u0026rsquo;re planning this work in three weeks. Can I come and shadow you? Can I watch, take notes and ask questions? I promise not to get in the way and will help if I can. I need to take some photos and tick off this requirement.”\nI discovered that people were receptive to someone who wanted to learn and respected those who went above and beyond. Breaking 120 requirements into daily tasks, then asking where I could acquire each missing skill, was extremely helpful. The same approach applies to starting a business or launching a podcast: divide a large task into small ones, find someone with the relevant skill and learn from them. It was meta-learning. At uni, I learnt how to learn from a book; in this program, I learnt how to learn from people. That produced tremendous growth.\nThe Social Pressure of High Achievement # James: You were completing the program much faster than colleagues following its usual 24-month schedule. How did that feel? Was there any social pressure, and did your peers\u0026rsquo; progress affect you?\nJosh: On one hand, it was a point of pride; then I quickly messed it all up. I\u0026rsquo;ll start with the fun part. I was powering through the program. At one of the days when all the graduates gathered, I was asked to present because I was working on perhaps the most exciting project: Barangaroo on Sydney Harbour.\nI would arrive on site and watch the sun rise through the Sydney Harbour Bridge, because the bridge was east of us. Yachts passed on the water. It was a beautiful project.\nThe universe helped me by giving me the best possible project on which to realise that I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to be an engineer. If I didn\u0026rsquo;t like it there, I wasn\u0026rsquo;t going to like it. People said, “Don\u0026rsquo;t worry, it\u0026rsquo;ll get better when you\u0026rsquo;re a design engineer,” but I\u0026rsquo;d heard that pattern before.\nI was asked to present on this beautiful project. A two-year program contains roughly 720 days, but only 120 requirements. Working six days a week, I thought that if I completed one each day, I could finish quickly.\nThat was driven by both a strength and its shadow. The strength was my desire to grow and become my best self, which I still hold today. Its shadow was the desire to be better than other people. I didn\u0026rsquo;t have that language then, but that was what drove me.\nJungian psychoanalysis says that whenever there\u0026rsquo;s a strength, a shadow lurks behind it. Consider the tyrant king, or what\u0026rsquo;s happening with Putin and Russia: great power carries a dark shadow. I believe that\u0026rsquo;s true of all strengths.\nWithout going too far off on a tangent, honesty is a strength, but if you criticise your local barista\u0026rsquo;s coffee, you\u0026rsquo;re simply being a jerk. Too much or too little honesty isn\u0026rsquo;t good. Strengths have a sweet spot.\nI\u0026rsquo;d always been an achiever: grow, grow, grow; achieve, achieve, achieve. That helped me power through the graduate program. At this conference, before I spoke to the other graduates about my project, someone else presented his.\nThis was the number-two graduate. His project was a road job. That isn\u0026rsquo;t a criticism of him or his work—I\u0026rsquo;ve worked on roads too—but his task was to construct sound walls alongside a highway. You place a column like a telephone pole, install a wall, then repeat. Every eight metres, he dug a hole, inserted steel, filled it with concrete and moved another eight metres.\nHe did that for kilometres. Sound walls are necessary, but I would rather have done anything than that forever. Again, it wasn\u0026rsquo;t a criticism of him; it was simply the project he presented.\nI had spent the previous year and a half giving tours of our large Sydney Harbour precinct to politicians, influencers and other visitors. I had a slick presentation with CGI, photos, behind-the-scenes details, facts and stories, and had already delivered it 20 or 30 times.\nWhenever someone visited, I volunteered to present. I loved talking about the project; I simply didn\u0026rsquo;t love building it. I had polished the jokes and statistics. The other graduate sat down after showing column after column, and in my imagination the lights dimmed and rock music played as I wowed the group. The audience\u0026rsquo;s general reaction was, “Screw you, buddy.”\nI got to work on the harbour amid all this beauty. The upside was that I loved talking about it. The downside was the attitude of, “Look at me and how great this is.” In hindsight, that involved a fair amount of ego, which I believe was driven by my unhappiness.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t intrinsically love the work, but it looked good to the outside world. I compensated for my unhappiness by telling people how great and beautiful the project was. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t claiming to be the best; I was trying to convince myself that I liked what I did.\nAfter completing the graduate requirements, I learnt a valuable lesson. While the head of our construction site was on holiday, I applied for the promotion that completing all 120 items made available.\nA senior employee visited my site and asked, “So you want to finish the graduate program?” I was only eight or nine months in, but replied, “I\u0026rsquo;ve finished it. Here\u0026rsquo;s the 120-page document; everything is ticked off.” He asked, “What\u0026rsquo;s your end goal?” I knew it was a loaded question but couldn\u0026rsquo;t see the trap because he had more experience than I did.\nHe clarified, “Where do you want your career to go? Where do you want to end up?” Nobody had asked me that before, and I didn\u0026rsquo;t know. He asked whether I wanted to become a construction manager, the senior role on a project.\nMy gut reaction was, “Not really.” He asked why I would limit myself and not aim for the top. I said that I\u0026rsquo;d watched construction managers and didn\u0026rsquo;t want the job. He then asked, “If you aren\u0026rsquo;t happy here and don\u0026rsquo;t want to reach the top, where in the middle do you want to finish?”\nJosh: I didn\u0026rsquo;t know. I simply wanted more—the next thing—and, lacking a destination, kept climbing. I was trying to say whatever was necessary to finish the program. I left that conversation realising I didn\u0026rsquo;t know why I was pretending to like the job. I was exhausted from working 12-hour days, six days a week, and wasn\u0026rsquo;t enjoying it.\nI received the promotion, then my construction manager returned from holiday. He had kindly given me a job after my rejection and had mentored me in the early days, but he was furious.\nThis young employee had sought a promotion beyond his scope and rank. I\u0026rsquo;d completely broken the chain of command: he employed me to work under him on his project, yet I\u0026rsquo;d gone into the corporate machine and found a way around him.\nI\u0026rsquo;d broken the unspoken rules of loyalty, patience and humility. The message was: this kid is a high achiever with a large ego who dislikes rules and will do what\u0026rsquo;s best for himself. All of that was true. The problem was that I behaved that way because I was unhappy, which I\u0026rsquo;d never articulated. When the promotion offered more money and responsibility, I realised I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to be there. That wasn\u0026rsquo;t a criticism of the company or job.\nIn that moment, being told I could have more made me recognise that I didn\u0026rsquo;t want it. Learning this at 22 was a gift: I didn\u0026rsquo;t have to spend 40 years doing something I disliked. Gallup\u0026rsquo;s Australian workforce data says that fewer than one in five Australian workers under 40 loves what they do. Sit with five friends and, statistically, four of you dislike your work. That\u0026rsquo;s depressing. Once I realised I wasn\u0026rsquo;t alone, I wanted to determine what came next.\nEverything I\u0026rsquo;d done until then had prepared me to be an engineer, and now I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to be one.\nLeaving his Career as an Engineer # James: That\u0026rsquo;s fascinating. Rather than remaining as many unhappy workers do, you asked what came next. It was brave and perhaps fortunate to realise this early, before additional responsibilities made leaving harder. Following a passion involves risk. Once you recognised that you weren\u0026rsquo;t happy, what was your next step? You could have gone anywhere.\nJosh: To be honest, I went a little Peter Pan and ran away to Neverland. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what I was doing. The theme appears in many films: Simba finds the kingdom frightening and runs away.\nI followed that adolescent urge to escape. When my best friend\u0026rsquo;s older brother and his friend were about 22, they went to Canada for a ski season, relaxed and had fun.\nI\u0026rsquo;d worked hard at uni and never had overseas holidays. While some friends travelled during breaks, I worked to pay for uni. I asked what the opposite of my current life would look like and how I might enjoy every day.\nPerhaps I could have a grand adventure. I\u0026rsquo;d been sensible and saved money, which is my top tip for anyone who dislikes their work. Saving gives you a cushion.\nYou can take one, two or three months off—or two years in my case—to determine what\u0026rsquo;s next. I could remain in a job I knew I disliked, or have an adventure, reset and try to work it out. I recruited my best mate, and we moved to Canada for a ski season.\nI wanted to do something different and have fun. I met many amazing people, including plenty of Australians and highly qualified people who had attended great universities and graduated with numerous opportunities, yet reached the same conclusion: “I don\u0026rsquo;t want to do the work I\u0026rsquo;m doing.” Being around others in the same position was reassuring. Travel introduces you to many people who are a little lost.\nAfter a while, I no longer wanted to wallow in being lost. It was fun, but I wanted to move forward. After a few months of the Canadian ski season, travelling around the US and doing the classic Contiki tour of Europe, I ended up in London about six or seven months later.\nWe had visited many countries, nearly exhausted our money and needed to work again. I quickly developed skills in the nightclub industry and discovered that I could be paid to drink and party with people.\nI promoted nightclubs and had a great time. My job was to party with groups of 100 to 200 people and be the life of the party. On days when I didn\u0026rsquo;t have to drink, I\u0026rsquo;d wake up relieved.\nI\u0026rsquo;d ask my housemates, “How excited are you not to drink today?” That\u0026rsquo;s the opposite of a healthier relationship, where you look forward to champagne at a Saturday party, wedding or engagement. I\u0026rsquo;d be excited not to drink, then someone would inevitably invite me to another party. I drank and encouraged others to drink professionally. People had fun, took great photos and made great memories.\nIt was hilarious, but also depressing—alcohol is a depressant. After weeks of this, I felt spiritually and morally bankrupt and wondered whether it would be the rest of my life. I hadn\u0026rsquo;t been happy as an engineer.\nI\u0026rsquo;d gone to the opposite extreme and partied for a living, yet wasn\u0026rsquo;t happy there either. I wondered whether something was wrong with me and whether I\u0026rsquo;d ever be happy. That possibility was terrifying.\nI could make a single day amazing, but wasn\u0026rsquo;t good at creating long-term happiness. Could I make months amazing, or would I always want to leave? I was stuck in London running pub crawls and feeling lost.\nHow Josh Found his Passion # James: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting question: do you dislike the work itself, or are you failing to appreciate it? Will anything fulfil you, or is that simply how life is? How did you respond to the bleak possibility that you might never enjoy anything?\nJosh: For anyone listening: one, thank you for listening; two, don\u0026rsquo;t worry, this story has a happy ending. I can go into the depths of the darkness and tell you that I screwed up at work, was driven by my ego, got people drunk for a living and felt depressed because I\u0026rsquo;ve done the work to overcome it.\nI think many people get stuck because they won\u0026rsquo;t admit there\u0026rsquo;s a problem. I did this in a later job, which I\u0026rsquo;ll tell you about, where I sat down with literally thousands of people and discussed their careers over two years. I love the phrase, \u0026ldquo;You can\u0026rsquo;t solve a problem you\u0026rsquo;re not willing to have.\u0026rdquo; At the time, I wasn\u0026rsquo;t willing to have any of these problems. In hindsight, I can look back and think, \u0026ldquo;Geez, how silly was I? I can\u0026rsquo;t believe I was doing this stuff.\u0026rdquo; But if you looked at my Instagram then, it appeared that I was having the best time in the world.\nI was probably making people more depressed about their lives by presenting mine on Instagram as happier than it was: beautiful boys and girls, and beautiful, exotic locations. I bought a GoPro, which levelled up my whole Insta game. It was fire. I remember tipping over a couple of thousand followers and people beginning to treat me differently.\nThis was seven or eight years ago. Instagram had been around for a while, but having a couple of thousand social-media followers was still a thing. I\u0026rsquo;d be out on pub crawls and knew the routine. Someone would approach me and say, \u0026ldquo;This is so much fun. Oh my God, you do this for a job?\u0026rdquo;\nI\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;Yeah, I do. I\u0026rsquo;ve been travelling for a year.\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;d reply, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve been travelling for a year? That\u0026rsquo;s amazing. I should add you on Instagram.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d give them my username, and they would say, \u0026ldquo;You have thousands of followers.\u0026rdquo; People literally treated me differently because of those followers, even though I wasn\u0026rsquo;t showing my full life.\nIt wasn\u0026rsquo;t fake; it was my real life. But it wasn\u0026rsquo;t the entire truth. Someone once told me to look through a person\u0026rsquo;s Instagram account and see what percentage of the time they\u0026rsquo;re smiling. It\u0026rsquo;s nearly 100 per cent.\nIn normal life, nobody walks around smiling all day; your face would hurt. Instagram was part of my life, but I was projecting it and trying to convince myself I was happy. I realised it wasn\u0026rsquo;t working and had to figure out what to do.\nI\u0026rsquo;m a slow learner, but I\u0026rsquo;ve been lucky and gifted with good opportunities. Completely coincidentally, Nathan—an awesome guy I studied engineering and worked at Lendlease with—had a large friendship group.\nLong before COVID, he was travelling around Europe with a group of friends and ended up in Portugal. I thought Portugal was in South America. I said, \u0026ldquo;Dude, I\u0026rsquo;m not catching a plane from London to South America.\u0026rdquo; He replied, \u0026ldquo;Portugal is an hour away from you by plane.\u0026rdquo;\nI said, \u0026ldquo;Oh, okay. Sorry, I had no idea.\u0026rdquo; I jumped on a $50 Ryanair flight—international flights out of London were very cheap—and went to Portugal. I spent time with him and a couple of mates. They said, \u0026ldquo;Life looks amazing.\u0026rdquo;\nI replied, \u0026ldquo;It kind of is, but I\u0026rsquo;m getting sick of partying every day.\u0026rdquo; I decided I needed to leave London. The party scene was too hectic and wasn\u0026rsquo;t healthy, so I would move to a little beachside town and settle there.\nWhile walking to the beach in Portugal, I stopped at a hostel, spoke to the owner behind the counter and got a job there. It was beautiful and beachy, not a city; it was simply different. A week later, I went back to London, packed my things, did one final pub crawl, finished a pool party at 2 am, went directly to the airport and flew to that little Portuguese beach town.\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just going to be here and decompress.\u0026rdquo; I moved to Portugal, spent time there and started considering what to do next. It was my layover period: I could sit on a beach and think. At that point, I started looking beyond myself.\nThis was 2015, at the peak of the Syrian refugee crisis. Nathan and his friends had moved east into Greece and were heading down into Turkey. Naive young me thought, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s fascinating. I\u0026rsquo;ve never been to Greece or Turkey.\u0026rdquo;\nThis was where everything involving Syria and people moving through the region was happening, and it was in the news. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Why not? Rather than reading the headlines, I\u0026rsquo;m here. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. What if I go and see what it\u0026rsquo;s really like?\u0026rdquo;\nI moved towards Greece and into Turkey, a country I knew nothing about, at the critical point when refugees were moving through it. I remember being in Turkish cities where the army travelled up and down the streets because people were protesting the wars happening in Syria.\nThe government was being overthrown in Turkey while we were there. I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m in what may not be the safest place right now,\u0026rdquo; but I felt called to it. I needed to be somewhere that had something deeper happening. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether that was a healthy or safe way to think, but I was looking for something deeper.\nI wanted proximity to a real problem in the world, as strange as that sounds. The closer I got, the more I realised how painful and tragic everything happening in that region was. My question became, \u0026ldquo;Can I do something about this?\u0026rdquo;\nWas I going to take Instagram photos of a refugee crisis? Definitely not. They didn\u0026rsquo;t gel particularly well with my waterfalls, sunsets, boots and boat cruises. It was a different vibe, but I needed something different.\nI asked, \u0026ldquo;If I\u0026rsquo;m not going to take photos, what can I do?\u0026rdquo; I posted on Facebook: \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m in Turkey, this is happening and I have a couple of weeks here. World, if you were me, what would you do?\u0026rdquo; I threw it into the ether, and someone replied, \u0026ldquo;Why don\u0026rsquo;t you volunteer?\u0026rdquo;\nIt sounded like a good idea, so I set out to find a way to help.\nJosh\u0026rsquo;s Powerful Volunteering Experience # James: That\u0026rsquo;s powerful. Through all those experiences, you\u0026rsquo;ve gone from escaping corporate Australia to escaping the nightlife. You\u0026rsquo;re slowly peeling the onion down to serious problems happening in the world.\nSeeing those problems firsthand is powerful. How did that affect you? This time, you were getting a taste of reality much closer to home. What came out of that volunteering experience?\nJosh: That\u0026rsquo;s a good insight. When you talked about escaping corporate Australia or the nightlife, I was really trying to escape myself. I wanted to be happy and fulfilled, but what I was trying hadn\u0026rsquo;t worked, so I would run away, try something else and hope to find happiness and fulfilment.\nI thought I could do that through pub crawls. That didn\u0026rsquo;t work, so I kept running away. Ultimately, what I was searching for was what I found when volunteering at a refugee border crossing between Macedonia and Serbia—two countries I\u0026rsquo;d never visited.\nOne of the cool things about visiting all those countries in a row—and people listening may think, \u0026ldquo;This guy doesn\u0026rsquo;t have a clue about any of them\u0026rdquo;—is that I experienced countries and cultures I knew nothing about. I was in Turkey for three weeks before realising it was in Asia, not Europe.\nI still thought I was in Europe, but I was in Asia. I literally didn\u0026rsquo;t know what continent I was on. I was outside myself, metaphorically and physically. Travelling through those countries made me realise that people are people everywhere, and people were suffering.\nThe news always shows one perspective, whereas people are rich, dynamic, generous, beautiful, loving, sad and suffering all at once. At that refugee border crossing, I realised I could do good instantly.\nJust as I could find ways to be unhappy, I could find ways to be happy and fulfilled in a moment. The border crossing was at the end of a train track on the edge of Macedonia. People had to leave the train and cross the border into Serbia.\nThey were trying to enter European countries that wouldn\u0026rsquo;t technically let them in, but once inside, they were covered by UN refugee treaties. They had to sneak into those countries. I watched mothers holding babies and sneaking them across borders, which is a strange concept in Australia because we\u0026rsquo;re an island.\nImagine barbed-wire fences between Queensland and New South Wales, with mothers holding babies in the dead of night and crawling under fences to get in. It was insane to see. In one night, I saw 6,000 people get off a train.\nThat same week—I forget who the Prime Minister was; this was when Australia had about 17 prime ministers within a week—the current Prime Minister announced a policy: \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s happening in Syria is awful. We\u0026rsquo;re going to let 10,000 refugees into Australia.\u0026rdquo;\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;I, one Australian, saw 6,000 people in a night, and we\u0026rsquo;re going to let 10,000 into an entire country? This is a joke.\u0026rdquo; Helping that night involved simple things: handing out bread and milk, giving people water and something to eat so they could continue their journey.\nThe bread came from a local bakery. Everything was donated, everybody there was a volunteer and some had been there for months. The bread wouldn\u0026rsquo;t last the refugees a week, but it might last until the next UN refugee camp.\nI had several profound realisations. First, many people need help. Second, the causes of the social problems we see are complex. It isn\u0026rsquo;t as simple as volunteering for one night and solving the problem. Third, you can help people take one or two more steps on their journey.\nThat can literally be lifesaving. Providing a meal to someone who doesn\u0026rsquo;t have one, milk for a baby or water could save a life without you ever knowing. It changed my view of what impact was. I asked, \u0026ldquo;What if it stopped being about me and became more about service?\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;What if I did more good in one night than I had in my entire life? What if I did that the next night, and the next?\u0026rdquo; I didn\u0026rsquo;t stay at the refugee camp. I didn\u0026rsquo;t say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to save this refugee camp forever.\u0026rdquo;\nBut I took away an idea that I think is more powerful than the action: what if every day I helped as many people as I could in a meaningful way and nudged them along their journey, whether in leadership, their career or by handing out supplies?\nWith everything that happened recently during the Queensland floods, I was at my local kindergarten with a group of volunteers.\nWe took out books, swept floors and moved furniture. We were nudging society in a positive direction. My metric for a meaningful career became: can I do something that\u0026rsquo;s net positive? Who knows how much you can help people, but can you do something positive?\nCan I show up every day and try to help? In one night, my entire view changed. I think about it every day. Whenever I struggle to sleep, I remember lying on a concrete floor. That night, I slept outdoors on a concrete slab.\nIt was just me and the concrete: no blanket, nothing. Any time I have trouble sleeping, thinking about that triggers me to remember how fortunate we are and how much we have. Then I ask, \u0026ldquo;What am I complaining about?\u0026rdquo; My problems don\u0026rsquo;t exist relative to those I saw. That motivates me every day to ask, \u0026ldquo;What can I do? How can I serve? How can I show up and try to make the world a better place?\u0026rdquo;\nThat one night was like an iPhone receiving a software upgrade: suddenly, it can do things it couldn\u0026rsquo;t do before.\nIt was also like a Tesla receiving a software update overnight: you wake up, and it can drive itself. I don\u0026rsquo;t have a Tesla, but so the story goes. That\u0026rsquo;s literally what happened in my brain in one night. The next morning, I woke and thought, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, I need to find a way to help people.\u0026rdquo;\nIt was black and white. It was pretty profound.\nWhat is Josh Working on Today # James: That\u0026rsquo;s remarkable. Many people are searching and need an experience like that to wake them up. You\u0026rsquo;ve taken that experience and now have a similar effect on others, helping them recognise that they too can create a positive impact and make the world better. You were fortunate to witness these events firsthand, seeing real people suffer real problems and being able to help. I\u0026rsquo;m glad we\u0026rsquo;re sharing the experience today. You\u0026rsquo;ve transferred its energy into your current work and have a significant impact on people across Australian universities, corporations and non-profits. I\u0026rsquo;d like to discuss your writing, your current work and the positive energy behind your desire to improve the world. What key ideas do you want to share?\nJosh: I love that. Thank you for giving me space to share it. The writing you\u0026rsquo;re alluding to is the product of sharing these insights on LinkedIn every day for six years. I post something I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt, a reflection or a story. That amounts to thousands of posts into which I\u0026rsquo;ve put considerable time, trying to make each idea practical.\nAfter running nearly a thousand workshops—a couple of hundred each year—while posting, speaking and writing daily, I noticed certain ideas recurring. When you work with students over several years, you tell one cohort something, then share the same idea with a new cohort the following year.\nFor the new students, it\u0026rsquo;s the first time they\u0026rsquo;ve encountered it. I realised these ideas were universal and that I\u0026rsquo;d been lucky to tap into some of them. I wanted to share them in another format, so this year I\u0026rsquo;m publishing my first book, Your Leadership Matters.\nIts principle—my philosophy and belief—is that seeing, treating and conducting yourself as a leader is the most empowering way to solve life\u0026rsquo;s inevitable problems and take advantage of its unlimited opportunities.\nThe book has six parts, organised as six Gs. The first is groundwork: understanding who you are and, as you said, peeling back the onion\u0026rsquo;s layers. Drawing on my work with thousands of people and hundreds of books and podcasts, I present the tools I wish I\u0026rsquo;d had at 22.\nI had no idea what I was doing. I remember sitting in a gondola at a Canadian ski resort, rocking back and forth and thinking that I must look crazy, repeatedly asking, “What am I going to do with my life?”\nI eventually realised that was a poor question. I could answer much more easily, “What problem do I care about that I could address today?” I could find a problem I cared about.\nIronically, understanding who I was meant thinking less about myself and more about the things I cared about: whom did I want to help and serve? The book guides readers through six stages they can apply to any area they want to improve, including finances, career, relationships, fun, joy, peace or love.\nYou can treat it as a field manual, with fill-in-the-blank exercises and questions that help you navigate from where you are to where you want to be. I\u0026rsquo;m excited for its release and can\u0026rsquo;t wait for people to read it and, hopefully, see the impact on their lives.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m excited to read it. Throughout this conversation, your interest in psychology and in looking beneath the surface has been clear. We discussed the shadow side of strengths and identifying what truly drives us. That\u0026rsquo;s important work we can all do better. I\u0026rsquo;m interested to see how those ideas appear in the book. Its message that people can lead themselves and take control of their lives is powerful. Asking “What am I going to do with my life?” is a common mistake I\u0026rsquo;m also guilty of making.\nWhat am I going to do with my life? # Josh: Since we\u0026rsquo;re running short on time, what does that question sound like when you ask it? Are you asking, “What am I going to do with my life?”\nJames: Yes. I ask, “If everything goes to plan, what do I want to be doing in ten years?” It usually returns to career measures: I want a particular position, to work for a certain kind of company or to earn a certain amount of money.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t often ask what problem I want to solve. Perhaps it is a common problem where intervention could move someone in a positive direction and change their life. Sometimes an idea never becomes an action. You may only need to nudge someone slightly, particularly early in life, to change their later trajectory significantly.\nJosh: I\u0026rsquo;ll offer a technique that may resonate with you or the audience. Imagine a 40-year career. I\u0026rsquo;ve been running my business for five years, and five years is a bloody long time to work on something.\nThink how long uni felt when you worked on something every day. Five years is both short and long. A career will probably last 50 years, but use 40 conservatively. Divide that line into five-year chunks and you have eight mini-careers. Instead of asking what you want to be doing, ask what you would be proud to have done in the next five years. Pick a problem in the world; you could start with the UN Sustainable Development Goals.\nThere are 17; pick one. Learn about the problem, find organisations and people working on it, and explore it deeply. Ask what you would love to do in that field, not where you must work or what job you must hold. If you could help 1,000 people, 100 people or ten people over five years, what would you do?\nThe second part is structuring the plan so you can\u0026rsquo;t lose. In addition to helping people, what skills do you want to develop and what experiences do you want to have? Do you want to travel; work in a startup, non-profit, government or corporation; or learn technical skills?\nDo you want another degree, to start a business or to build a podcast? Over the next five years, whom do you want to help? What can you learn deeply enough to become a mini-expert? What skills and experiences can you gain?\nThat creates a win regardless of the result. How old are you, James?\nJames: Yeah, I\u0026rsquo;m 23.\nJosh: In five years, you\u0026rsquo;ll be 28. You\u0026rsquo;re two years younger than I am now and roughly a year older than I was when I started my business. By then, you could have done valuable work and become a mini-expert in a problem that matters.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll have met great people, gathered stories and developed skills, with seven more mini-careers still ahead. Some people are certain that they want a corporate career, to be a lawyer or to climb the ranks, which is great. Most people listening to a podcast like this aren\u0026rsquo;t so certain.\nIf you aren\u0026rsquo;t certain, remove the pressure of a ten-year career plan because it will change. Ask what five-year mini-career would be worthwhile even if it failed horribly. I worked in non-profit education.\nI probably never want to be a recruitment manager again, but those two years taught me a great deal about education and recruitment. Recruiting taught me how to understand people and ask questions, while education became a launch pad for my current work.\nThat experiment lasted only two years; in five, I might have mastered some of those skills. If you\u0026rsquo;re stuck, don\u0026rsquo;t ask only what work you want to do. Ask whom you want to help and what skills you want. Shorten the time horizon, because asking where you want to be in 40 years can be overwhelming.\nYou may have one life, but you also have one chance at the next five years. Shrink the question.\nJosh\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: That\u0026rsquo;s an excellent exercise. One question I ask every guest is: what advice would you give yourself if you were starting your career today?\nJosh: What I just described would probably be my answer: think about the next five years and whom you want to help. If you\u0026rsquo;re lost, try to answer this question.\nI\u0026rsquo;m sure this isn\u0026rsquo;t original, but the point of a career is to end unnecessary suffering. If you don\u0026rsquo;t know what to do, find someone who is struggling or suffering that shouldn\u0026rsquo;t exist—a resourcefulness problem rather than a resource problem. Before recording, I mentioned booking an Airbnb today. Its home page asked whether users could help house 200,000 Ukrainian refugees. There are obviously more refugees, but that was the displayed figure.\nPeople with vacant Airbnb properties around the world could say, “I can house a family for two weeks. I can forgo two weeks of Airbnb income,” or perhaps offer accommodation for two months or two years.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a small sacrifice that won\u0026rsquo;t cause their own family to starve. Many listeners won\u0026rsquo;t have a spare property, but they may have a free weekend, a few hours or $50 each month to donate. My advice to my younger self would be to find a problem you care about.\nFind suffering—strange as that sounds—with leverage: it needn\u0026rsquo;t happen, a solution exists, and great people or organisations are working on it. Get involved and change your proximity. Proximity changed everything for me.\nThe hardest advice I\u0026rsquo;d give my younger self is to spend time somewhere with real problems. Those problems can exist in your neighbourhood, including domestic abuse and many others.\nYou shouldn\u0026rsquo;t simply knock on a neighbour\u0026rsquo;s door and ask whether suffering is occurring. Connect with organisations addressing problems locally, or go somewhere where the environment confronts you with them.\nI needed the shock of recognising that real problems existed and that I could help. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t pleasant, but it was practical. The gap between what I thought I wanted and what I needed became apparent. Go somewhere with a genuine challenge and be around people solving it.\nHad I only witnessed the crisis without seeing anyone respond, it would have been deeply depressing. At the refugee crossing, however, I saw local families and bakers with almost nothing give away everything. They closed businesses and gave all their bread to refugees they didn\u0026rsquo;t know, from other countries and religions.\nSome religious narratives described these people as enemies, yet the locals devoted their lives to helping them. I thought, “That\u0026rsquo;s religion. That\u0026rsquo;s what it\u0026rsquo;s about.” Being around such selfless, generous people changed my perspective.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the message I would give my younger self.\nJames: I hope listeners take that message to heart. Thanks for joining me today, Josh. Where can people learn more about you?\nJosh: To connect with me, search LinkedIn for Josh Farr—F-A-R-R. To learn about our organisation, visit CampusConsultancy.org, which explains what we do.\nIf you gained something from today\u0026rsquo;s conversation, I\u0026rsquo;d love to hear from you. Message me on LinkedIn and say you heard me on Graduate Theory, tell me what you liked, ask a question or explain where you\u0026rsquo;re stuck. I\u0026rsquo;ll send you useful resources or try to point you in the right direction.\nJames: Fantastic. Thank you for sharing your story and mission with us, Josh. It\u0026rsquo;s been wonderful to hear about your experiences.\nJosh: Thanks, James. Thanks for having me.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and what I learnt from this episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll receive my takeaways and information about each episode straight in your inbox.\nThanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 22\n","date":"21 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/22-on-finding-your-mission-with-josh-farr/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 22\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Finding Your Mission with Josh Farr","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis wonderful week it\u0026rsquo;s episode #21 of Graduate Theory. It\u0026rsquo;s time to discuss resumes and cover letters.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re not already growing your career, subscribe now so you never miss a beat 👇\nSubscribe\nNimarta Verma is CEO and Chief Strategist of Disruptor Brand. She helps brands and leaders to tell their stories louder and make marketing easier.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Calling Out Nerves # We all know that feeling. You\u0026rsquo;re walking into the interview, sweating like the sun is walking right next to you.\nThese nerves can really affect your performance in an interview. When you want to look good, being nervous isn\u0026rsquo;t something that is going to help.\nSo what do we do in these situations?\nNimarta says to call it out.\nI feel like even just acknowledging that, oh man, I\u0026rsquo;m really nervous. Like that actually is such a great ice breaker. And sometimes as an interviewer, like I actually say to the person, I go, look, I get it. It’s normal to be a bit nervous, you know.\nNext time you\u0026rsquo;re in the interview and you\u0026rsquo;re feeling like you need to keep your nervousness a secret, don\u0026rsquo;t.\nAcknowledge it, accept it and tackle the interview as best as you can.\nApply Your Skills to Your Position # Often when people apply for graduate jobs, they don\u0026rsquo;t have much experience. In fact, almost no experience at all.\nThis can make it tricky to fill out your resume.\nNimarta tells us that even though we may not have direct skills in certain areas, we have skills that we have learnt that will carry over to new roles.\nhow has that experience, how does the skills I\u0026rsquo;ve learned through doing a job in retail, how will that benefit them in a job in accounting or in marketing, whatever the industry they\u0026rsquo;re in.\nEven though you may not have experience in the industry, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean that you don\u0026rsquo;t have useful skills for the organisation.\n🤝 Connect with Nimarta # https://www.linkedin.com/in/nimarta-verma/\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 Nimarta Verma\n01:08 How has Nimarta\u0026rsquo;s Job Application process changed over time\n03:21 How Does Nimarta Structure her Resume?\n07:14 Do \u0026lsquo;humanised\u0026rsquo; resumes work?\n08:43 How can someone \u0026lsquo;humanise\u0026rsquo; their resume?\n14:20 Does a \u0026lsquo;humanised\u0026rsquo; resume polarise employers?\n15:13 What mistakes do people make in their resumes?\n18:36 Nimarta\u0026rsquo;s cover letter story\n22:20 Dealing with Nerves during interviews\n25:12 Traits of Good Interviews\n29:49 What has Nimarta taken from marketing and applied to herself?\n37:14 Nimarta\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n39:00 Connect with Nimarta\n39:58 Outro\n","date":"14 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/21-on-resume-writing-and-authenticity-with-nimarta-verma/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis wonderful week it’s episode #21 of Graduate Theory. It’s time to discuss resumes and cover letters.\n","title":"On Resume Writing and Authenticity with Nimarta Verma","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 21\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nNimarta: It was no surprise that she got the job, given that she really stood out when she wrote it that way.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a brand strategist and marketing trainer on a mission to disrupt the marketing world and help brands with a vision cut through the noise. She has grown businesses and their marketing across 50 industries in 10 different countries. She\u0026rsquo;s currently the CEO and chief strategist of marketing consultancy Disruptor Brand, where she serves brands and leaders to tell their story louder and make marketing easier. Please welcome to the show Nimarta Verma.\nNimarta: Thank you so much. Great to be here.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you here, Nimarta. Today, I want to dive into the job application process with you. I know it\u0026rsquo;s something you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about, and throughout your career you\u0026rsquo;ve applied the marketing side of things to the way you apply for jobs and to that whole process.\nHow Has Nimarta\u0026rsquo;s Job Application Process Changed over Time? # James: How has your approach to getting a job—with the résumé, cover letter and related things—changed over time?\nNimarta: I started out in a way that\u0026rsquo;s probably similar to a lot of new graduates. We find a template, or we\u0026rsquo;re told there\u0026rsquo;s a certain template to follow. I would write in a really professional way and use jargon such as, “I\u0026rsquo;m enthusiastic. I\u0026rsquo;m a problem solver. I am responsible.” I would go to interviews and say the answer I thought the other person wanted to hear. I didn\u0026rsquo;t ask my own questions. My approach was, “I\u0026rsquo;m just grateful to get an interview, and hopefully they give me a job. I\u0026rsquo;m going to say anything to get the job.”\nThat\u0026rsquo;s how it started. Now, I\u0026rsquo;ve been able to inject my own story and personality into my résumé and cover letters. I\u0026rsquo;ve brought authenticity to them, and people really get a sense of who I am from reading those things. When I\u0026rsquo;m face to face with them, there are still nerves—I think there always will be—but now it\u0026rsquo;s a conversation. It\u0026rsquo;s about letting them get to know me while I also get to know them. It\u0026rsquo;s two parties deciding whether we\u0026rsquo;re right for each other.\nJames: You have a unique view and process for this. What does your résumé look like now? You\u0026rsquo;ve said that, because of your marketing background, you like to do things a little unconventionally.\nHow Does Nimarta Structure Her Résumé? # James: What are some of those unconventional things, and how do you structure your résumé?\nNimarta: First of all, it\u0026rsquo;s colourful. There isn\u0026rsquo;t too much colour, but there\u0026rsquo;s a play between two colours. I also include a photo of me. A lot of people say not to do it because it\u0026rsquo;s frowned upon, but I think people might want to get a sense of who they\u0026rsquo;re speaking to. It\u0026rsquo;s a photo of me genuinely smiling, rather than a staged photo.\nI start with a short summary. A lot of people write something like, “Looking to excel in a customer service capacity,” followed by more of the same. My summary says something like, “Marketing strategist. I\u0026rsquo;ve worked across these industries and am looking to widen my skill set into this area or that area. I\u0026rsquo;m interested in strategy, I love solving problems, and I find businesses challenging and exciting.” Those are the things I\u0026rsquo;m passionate about.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a summary of me, my career and what I want to do next. At that point, I\u0026rsquo;m not trying to sweet-talk them by saying I\u0026rsquo;m there to serve them. I still structure it like a typical résumé in the sense that it\u0026rsquo;s chronological, starting with my latest experience and working back to the earliest.\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s different is that, for each role, I don\u0026rsquo;t write bullet points listing roles and responsibilities. In fact, I don\u0026rsquo;t include anything about roles and responsibilities. I write a few lines saying, “Here\u0026rsquo;s what I did. Here\u0026rsquo;s what really excited me about this role. Here\u0026rsquo;s why I left, and here\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;m most proud of.” I tell that story consistently through each role. When a hiring manager reads the whole thing, they understand that I worked in one capacity and left for a particular reason, or that I made a particular choice. It tells the story of my career journey.\nI also include things I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt: “This role really challenged me, and one of the most valuable lessons I learnt was X, Y or Z.” It really does tell the story of my career.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s quite unique. Almost everyone has a cookie-cutter résumé that says, “I worked here, here and here, and these are the three things I did.” It\u0026rsquo;s interesting that you do things quite differently. Your approach is much more personal because, ultimately, the person reading your résumé is a person too. They probably have similar thoughts.\nNimarta: Absolutely. They\u0026rsquo;re bored to death reading the same kinds of CVs over and over again. If you cover the name, they\u0026rsquo;re all the same. Everybody uses the same jargon and buzzwords and puts little keywords on their CV. I\u0026rsquo;ve been in the position of reading CVs and thinking, “Just give me something. Give me some sense that you\u0026rsquo;re a human. I want to know somebody.” I try to humanise my CV as much as possible.\nDo \u0026lsquo;humanised\u0026rsquo; resumes work? # James: Do you think that approach has worked? It\u0026rsquo;s probably hard to compare unless you\u0026rsquo;ve done a form of A/B testing, such as applying for five jobs with one version and five with the other. Even then, it would be a small sample, but you might see some difference. What has the outcome been?\nNimarta: As you say, it\u0026rsquo;s a small sample, but I definitely got more responses when I used what you might call a storified or humanised CV, compared with the plain, templated version. Even if the response was, “Thanks for sending it through. You\u0026rsquo;re probably not right for us,” at least I received one. With the plain, templated version, I didn\u0026rsquo;t get many responses. You send the CV into a vortex, and there\u0026rsquo;s silence. You get nothing back.\nJames: How would you take someone\u0026rsquo;s cookie-cutter résumé and make it more personalised, down-to-earth and storified?\nHow Can Someone Humanise Their Resume? # James: What would you look at first and say will probably make the biggest difference? How would you approach it?\nNimarta: I\u0026rsquo;ve done this quite a bit because I\u0026rsquo;ve helped a lot of people with their CVs. I start by having them talk to me about who they are and what they want: who they are in life, what they believe in and what they care about. I want to bring them out because a lot of people are so concerned with writing the CV that everybody wants to see. They\u0026rsquo;re thinking about what the other person wants and the “right” thing to say. I try to get them out of the mindset that there\u0026rsquo;s a right thing to say. We just want to tell their story.\nI ask them, “You did this role. Tell me what you did and what it was like.” Once they start talking, I ask, “What did you enjoy most about that role?” They\u0026rsquo;ll answer, and I\u0026rsquo;ll say, “That\u0026rsquo;s great. Write that down.” They\u0026rsquo;ll ask, “Really?” Yes, write that down. Then I ask what they were really proud of, what they accomplished and whether they learnt a particularly valuable lesson. When they answer, I tell them to write those things down. I try to get their side of the experience.\nI tell them to remove lists of roles and responsibilities. If your job is complicated—perhaps you do something with data processing and nobody knows what you do—you can explain it in one line. You don\u0026rsquo;t need to list everything you do. Tell the story instead of making lists.\nI also remove jargon. Words that immediately raise red flags for me include “enthusiastic”, “passionate”, “responsible”, “strategic problem solver”, “excellent communicator” and “team player”. When I spot words like that, they have to go. They\u0026rsquo;re clichés that don\u0026rsquo;t paint a picture of the person.\nJames: Those words are probably on my résumé, if not almost everyone\u0026rsquo;s. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to think about using different words to describe yourself and making your résumé unique, rather than having one that looks like everybody else\u0026rsquo;s. The same applies to the colours you mentioned earlier.\nNimarta: This is especially important for a new graduate. A lot of the new graduates I work with don\u0026rsquo;t have much relevant work experience. Some have worked in cafés or retail, or they\u0026rsquo;ve done internships, and they now want to apply for a job in their profession. We have to write about those experiences in a way that links them to their intended profession. How will the skills they learnt in retail benefit them in accounting, marketing or whatever industry they\u0026rsquo;re entering?\nI might ask, “What skills did you learn in retail? Now that you\u0026rsquo;re going to become an accountant, how will those skills help you?” They might say it will help them communicate better. Great—we\u0026rsquo;ll talk about that. We need to make those connections because we have to assume the reader is lazy. They aren\u0026rsquo;t going to connect the dots, so we have to help them.\nI also try to bring more of their story into the summary. What makes them passionate about their industry? Why do they want to become a marketer or an engineer? Often, they\u0026rsquo;ve been curious about something ever since they were a child. I bring out that story and tell it from the beginning, in both the cover letter and the summary.\nAs a new graduate, you don\u0026rsquo;t have much going for you in terms of experience. That\u0026rsquo;s simply the reality. The question is how you tell your story and engage people. A lot of new graduates mistakenly think their grades or academic accomplishments will carry the day. In reality, that isn\u0026rsquo;t what hiring managers look for. They may glance at those things, but they\u0026rsquo;re more interested in who you are and whether you\u0026rsquo;ll fit culturally and work well in the company.\nJames: Getting a job is almost like entering a relationship between yourself and the company. If the company isn\u0026rsquo;t right for you, you don\u0026rsquo;t want to work there either. This personalisation puts much more of you out there.\nDoes a \u0026lsquo;humanised\u0026rsquo; resume polarise employers? # James: Some companies might not like it, but those that do are going to like you much more because you\u0026rsquo;re sharing more of yourself. Do you agree?\nNimarta: Absolutely. Now you\u0026rsquo;re talking my language in terms of marketing. I always tell people that not everybody has to like you or buy your brand, but those who do are the ones you want. There\u0026rsquo;s room for everybody, as long as we don\u0026rsquo;t think in terms of desperation and scarcity. There\u0026rsquo;s a right job and a right role for everybody. You can get a job in a company that doesn\u0026rsquo;t fit you, but you\u0026rsquo;ll be miserable or won\u0026rsquo;t last long anyway. What\u0026rsquo;s the point?\nWhat mistakes do people make in their resumes? # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve looked at people\u0026rsquo;s résumés as a hiring manager and helped people create their own. What general mistakes have you seen that make you think, “Definitely don\u0026rsquo;t do that”?\nNimarta: One is using the buzzwords and jargon I mentioned before, such as “passionate”. Another is making the résumé really long, although length isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily the issue. If you\u0026rsquo;re genuinely telling a story about yourself, it isn\u0026rsquo;t a turn-off. My CV is about two pages, so it isn\u0026rsquo;t short.\nThe problem is when there are lists and lists of roles and accountabilities. People have probably taken them from their job description and dumped them into the CV, which adds no value for the reader. I also see long lists of skill sets and proficiencies: “I\u0026rsquo;m a good communicator. I\u0026rsquo;m a good team player. I know these programs.” In some specialisations, the programs you know are relevant and should be listed. But I see a lot of CVs say, “I know Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint and email.” You don\u0026rsquo;t need to tell us that. Overloading a résumé with detail is a mistake.\nThe biggest mistake is the mindset people have when they write the CV: “This CV is going to get me the job.” I always tell people that the CV isn\u0026rsquo;t meant to get them the job, and they look shocked. The CV is meant to get you the interview. I want to interview someone who intrigues me and whom I want to learn more about. If you tell me every detail about yourself in the résumé, you\u0026rsquo;re already boring me to death. I don\u0026rsquo;t need to know more, and I may not feel the need to interview you.\nYou want to leave a little mystery and intrigue. Leave them thinking, “That\u0026rsquo;s interesting,” and wanting to talk to you about some of the things you wrote.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;m seeing in myself, and I\u0026rsquo;m sure lots of people don\u0026rsquo;t consider it. The résumé isn\u0026rsquo;t there to get you to the end; it\u0026rsquo;s there to get you to the next step. That should influence how you structure it and what you include. You mentioned A/B testing your résumé. Have you had any other interesting experiences with this personal touch?\nNimarta\u0026rsquo;s cover letter story # Nimarta: Once, when I was looking for a job, I got sick of the whole process—not desperate to get a job, but sick of the process. I felt so fake and thought, “What am I doing with my life?” At about 10 pm on a weeknight, I wrote a cover letter from scratch to a company.\nI said, “First of all, I\u0026rsquo;m going to tell you some truths. I\u0026rsquo;m not a very good employee. I don\u0026rsquo;t like being tied to a chair, sitting in one place or being told what time to arrive and leave. I really hate that side of working. I read your job ad, and I don\u0026rsquo;t know if I believe it. I\u0026rsquo;m sceptical. You talk about a great culture, but everybody says that. What\u0026rsquo;s the catch?”\nI also wrote, “I hope the person reading this is another human being like me who understands what an ordeal it is to talk myself up to somebody I don\u0026rsquo;t know through this letter, how yucky that is and how much I really want to find fulfilment and joy in a role. If you\u0026rsquo;re someone who gets it, hopefully we can talk and see whether we\u0026rsquo;re a match for each other.”\nIt was the most honest letter I\u0026rsquo;d ever written. I had butterflies in my stomach as I emailed it, and I thought, “I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I\u0026rsquo;ve done.” I showed it to my husband for a sense check, hoping it wasn\u0026rsquo;t too bad. He read it and asked, “Did you send this?” I said I had, and he just said, “Whoa.” I wondered what was going to happen.\nI sent it at about 10 pm, and my phone rang before midday the next day. It was the company calling. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t just the manager hiring for the position; it was the CEO calling. He said the HR person had forwarded him my cover letter and told him he had to read it. He had read it several times and said it was the most incredible and honest thing he\u0026rsquo;d ever read in someone\u0026rsquo;s application. He didn\u0026rsquo;t think the role was for me, but he still wanted to talk and perhaps create a role for me because he thought I\u0026rsquo;d be a great fit for them.\nIt was a really cool experience. It was incredible to receive such reassuring feedback from something so honest that had made me nervous.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s incredible. I\u0026rsquo;ve often thought that I could throw away my usual cover letter and write something more fun that simply says, “This is who I am.” It\u0026rsquo;s great to hear that you had such a good experience with that, because it\u0026rsquo;s incredible what that approach can do.\nI\u0026rsquo;d like to move on to interviews. You\u0026rsquo;ve done a lot of them and have probably helped people with this too. Many people enter an interview with nervous butterflies and worry that their nerves will negatively affect the experience.\nDealing with Nerves during interviews # James: When they get a question, they\u0026rsquo;re so nervous that they can\u0026rsquo;t answer it. How have you dealt with nerves in the past?\nNimarta: In the beginning, I didn\u0026rsquo;t really deal with them. I put on a show and pretended I was okay while I was sweating and trying to be cool. After I\u0026rsquo;d been on the other side, as an interviewer watching nervous candidates, I understood what it feels like to be the interviewer. I realised that people can tell when you\u0026rsquo;re nervous, but they understand and empathise. It is a nerve-racking experience. Even the person interviewing you has been interviewed, so everybody understands.\nSimply acknowledging, “I\u0026rsquo;m really nervous,” can be a great icebreaker. As an interviewer, I sometimes say to a candidate, “I understand if you\u0026rsquo;re a little nervous. Do you want to have a glass of water? Do you want to take off your coat? It\u0026rsquo;s okay. Relax. It\u0026rsquo;s fine that you\u0026rsquo;re nervous.” They\u0026rsquo;re very appreciative that I\u0026rsquo;ve said it.\nWhen I was later interviewed, I learnt to acknowledge my nerves: “I didn\u0026rsquo;t think I was going to be so nervous. I\u0026rsquo;ve done this a lot, but I\u0026rsquo;m still nervous.” It\u0026rsquo;s a refreshing moment that you share with another human. They\u0026rsquo;re glad you\u0026rsquo;re honest. You\u0026rsquo;ve addressed the elephant in the room, and it stops feeling so heavy. The minute you say, “I\u0026rsquo;m feeling a bit nervous, but I\u0026rsquo;m excited to be here,” you find yourself connecting with another human.\nMy biggest recommendation is to own that you\u0026rsquo;re nervous. Don\u0026rsquo;t pretend you\u0026rsquo;re not or try to act cool. Just own it.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s good advice. Calling it out during the interview might be hard, but it can help you move through the nervousness. From your experience as both an interviewer and an interviewee, what common traits have you seen in good interviews?\nTraits of Good Interviews # James: What can someone do to make their interview better?\nNimarta: It\u0026rsquo;s always good to be prepared. I know that\u0026rsquo;s a cliché, but it really offers value when you go in having researched the company. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to recite what the company does, but you should arrive with questions or thoughts about the company, its position in the industry or things you\u0026rsquo;ve seen it do.\nA lot of people think the point of research is to impress the interviewer. I don\u0026rsquo;t see it that way. Research enables a richer, more honest conversation. You aren\u0026rsquo;t scared about what they\u0026rsquo;re going to ask because you can say, “I\u0026rsquo;ve read your website. Here\u0026rsquo;s what I understand so far, and here are the parts I don\u0026rsquo;t understand.” At least you can have a conversation about it. Being prepared, forming your own opinions about what the company does and understanding what you\u0026rsquo;re curious about all help the discussion.\nJames: Obviously, you want to know where you might be working before you apply. It\u0026rsquo;s useful to go deeper, as you\u0026rsquo;ve suggested, by finding out about the company\u0026rsquo;s values and what it does. You can also identify what confuses you and seek clarity during the interview. That shows you\u0026rsquo;re genuinely interested in pursuing the role and that there are things you want to work out with them.\nNimarta: The other thing is not being afraid to ask questions. Earlier in my career, I was really scared to ask questions because I wanted to be the good girl who ticked all their boxes. At the end, they would ask if I had any questions, and I\u0026rsquo;d eagerly say, “No, it\u0026rsquo;s all good.” That isn\u0026rsquo;t helpful. First, you don\u0026rsquo;t get your questions answered. Second, asking questions helps the hiring manager understand your thought process and where you\u0026rsquo;re coming from. That\u0026rsquo;s valuable to them as well.\nIn one recent interview for a role with a pet food brand, I\u0026rsquo;d done some research and found negative reviews. Some animals had eaten the food, had a bad reaction, were hospitalised and didn\u0026rsquo;t have a good outcome. I asked, “I want to know about your product and quality-control process. I\u0026rsquo;ve read these reviews. Have you done anything to resolve this? Are they true? What happened?” I explained that I love animals and dogs, and I couldn\u0026rsquo;t be part of a company that produced food that made animals sick. I needed to know.\nI ended up getting the job. Afterwards, the interviewer said that question had been memorable: “I could tell you really cared, and I want someone who really does care.”\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great story. There\u0026rsquo;s a lot of value in going the extra step, carefully considering what you believe and ensuring your values align with the company\u0026rsquo;s.\nThanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so through the links in the show notes. The newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.\nWithout further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get back into it.\nI\u0026rsquo;d also like to touch on marketing. It\u0026rsquo;s something you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about and have done throughout your career. I\u0026rsquo;d like to talk about how it aligns with your personal brand and the way you brand yourself.\nWhat has Nimarta taken from marketing and applied to herself? # James: How does marketing tie into your résumé and job applications? What have you taken from marketing and applied in these different arenas?\nNimarta: Quite a lot. One thing is keeping the target audience in mind. From a marketing perspective, I\u0026rsquo;m always asking: Who is the target audience? What are their frustrations? What are they thinking and concerned about? What do they care about? When I create marketing material or communications, I speak to and address those concerns, or acknowledge them by saying, “I know these are your concerns. Here\u0026rsquo;s what we\u0026rsquo;re doing to resolve them.”\nThe same applies when I write CVs and cover letters, or help other people write them. I first ask who\u0026rsquo;s hiring for the role. If they\u0026rsquo;re a C-level executive, what are their frustrations? What are they looking for? What has frustrated them about the process of filling the role, and what might they want from a candidate?\nWhen we look at it through that lens, we can write the CV to address those things: “These are the things you\u0026rsquo;re worried about, and here are some of the answers I can offer.” You can keep that in mind during the interview too. It lets you speak from their perspective and be more empathetic to their needs. That\u0026rsquo;s one key thread I pull from the marketing world into the job application world.\nThe next part is telling the story and differentiating yourself. When I work with brands, I help them differentiate and stand out. We\u0026rsquo;re always asking what makes them different. It\u0026rsquo;s a combination of rational things, such as your skill set, experience or having worked for a respected company, and an emotional side: who you are and what you believe in.\nThe same applies to a person. We look at the experience and technical elements that make you different and make sure we tell that story. Then we ask what you believe in, what you care about and what matters to you. It\u0026rsquo;s a dance between those two sides.\nNot everybody has experience that exactly matches their intended industry. I once helped a construction project manager who wanted another role in construction project management but had a background in accounting. People are often intimidated when switching industries. I asked her, “How does your accounting background give you an edge over people who have only been project managers and have never done accounting? What do you bring to the job?”\nShe told me, “Project managers don\u0026rsquo;t look at the numbers. I always look at them, and because I have an accounting brain, I can flag problems early when the numbers don\u0026rsquo;t line up.” I said, “That\u0026rsquo;s gold. We\u0026rsquo;re going to say that. It isn\u0026rsquo;t in your CV at all.”\nWe found a way to tell those stories—the gold nuggets about what makes her different and what she brings that nobody else can. She got the job, which wasn\u0026rsquo;t surprising because she really stood out when she wrote about herself that way.\nJames: I love that point about differentiating yourself. In marketing, you differentiate yourself in the market, but we can also think about that in a career context. In your example, you brought the things that person could do that nobody else could to the forefront. That\u0026rsquo;s a great use of marketing principles.\nI\u0026rsquo;d like to ask more about your career. You\u0026rsquo;ve worked for many companies, across many industries, and helped a lot of businesses. What career advice have you seen that isn\u0026rsquo;t very good?\nNimarta: I like that question. I\u0026rsquo;ve probably received a lot of bad advice. One example is when people say, “Stick to it. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to be seen as leaving a job too early. You should work there for at least a year or two.”\nI remember wanting to quit a job after four years, and people still told me it would make me look uncommitted. If you look at my résumé, I\u0026rsquo;ve never stayed in a role for more than four years. Others have been six-month contracts, one year or two years.\nThe idea that you have to stick to a job for 10 or 20 years is old-school. Perhaps there was a time for it. My mum certainly did that, it worked for her and it worked for many people in previous generations. Is it relevant now? I don\u0026rsquo;t think people care about it as much.\nJames: I agree. Career mobility is easier now, especially with remote work. We aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily constrained by where we live, so there are more opportunities and it\u0026rsquo;s easier to find new jobs through online advertisements and similar resources. Those have only been widespread for perhaps 15 to 20 years. The ability to move between and find jobs has opened many doors for young people. I have one last question for you, Nimarta.\nNimarta\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I ask every guest this question. What\u0026rsquo;s some advice you would give to young people starting their careers today?\nNimarta: The biggest thing is that it\u0026rsquo;s not life and death. It\u0026rsquo;s not the end of the world. The career you\u0026rsquo;re in now doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be the career you remain in for the rest of your life. You can change your mind 2,000 times, switch industries and careers, or be 10 years into a career and decide, “I\u0026rsquo;m really bored with that. I\u0026rsquo;m going to do a different degree and take a different route.”\nI see a lot of stress among 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds who are trying to map out the rest of their lives. You can\u0026rsquo;t do that, and you don\u0026rsquo;t need to know what you\u0026rsquo;ll be doing for the rest of your life. You just need to know what the next thing is, then do it. If it fulfils you and you love it, keep at it. If it doesn\u0026rsquo;t, don\u0026rsquo;t settle. Step back and ask what else you should be doing. Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to change or change your mind.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice that young people today can take on board. Thanks so much for your time, Nimarta.\nConnect with Nimarta # James: If people want to find out more about you or connect with you, where should they go?\nNimarta: LinkedIn is probably the best place to learn more about me, read the things I share and connect with me. Send me a message or add me as a connection. Look up Nimarta Verma, and you\u0026rsquo;ll find me there. To learn more about my consultancy, visit disruptorbrand.com.\nJames: Great. We\u0026rsquo;ll leave all your links in the show notes and description, so they\u0026rsquo;re just below wherever people are listening. Thanks again for your time today, Nimarta. Hopefully, we\u0026rsquo;ll speak again soon.\nNimarta: No problem. It\u0026rsquo;s great to chat. Thanks for having me.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope you got something out of it; I certainly did. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already, please consider subscribing to the Graduate Theory newsletter. You\u0026rsquo;ll receive the episode and my takeaways in your inbox every week.\nThanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 21\n","date":"14 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/21-on-resume-writing-and-authenticity-with-nimarta-verma/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 21\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Resume Writing and Authenticity with Nimarta Verma","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #20 of Graduate Theory. This episode is with one of the most impressive guests we\u0026rsquo;ve interviewed so far.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re not already growing your career, subscribe now so you never miss a beat 👇\nSubscribe Now\nAdam Geha has over 25 years of experience in the investment management industry. He is CEO and co-founder of EG, a data-driven investment manager and developer with over AU$4.3 billion in assets under management and a $3.9 billion development pipeline.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # I couldn\u0026rsquo;t stop myself so in this episode, I\u0026rsquo;ve got 7 takeaways for you.\nRoutines are Creative\nHard on Content, Soft on Delivery\nThe World Cup\nFrom the Little Comes the Big\nLeadership is Not Management\nAligning Dreams\nPublic Speaking and Leadership\nRoutines are Creative # Do routines limit your creativity?\nAdam spoke about how having routines to free up your mental bandwidth actually makes you more creative. In fact, he says not having a routine makes you less creative.\nSo if you\u0026rsquo;ve got tasks that are routine, you should have routines to deal with the routine tasks so that they don\u0026rsquo;t use RAM. You are going to get problems and tasks that are non-routine for which you need to consume genuine RAM.\nRoutine tasks like showers and cleaning should be made into routines. Non-routine tasks are those that you need actual mental bandwidth to complete. Use routines to save your brain for the tasks that matter.\nDeciding what time you will shower or what clothes you will wear is a decision and leads to what is known as decision fatigue. Using your willpower and decision making on things like this is not a good use of your time. Routine activities like this can be simplified so that your decision making and focus can be used on important tasks.\nAdam shares that he wears the same clothes and has the same personal hygiene routine every day. This routine saves him time and helps him use his brain for the tasks that matter\nBy doing routine in a routine way, you actually liberate your mind for the higher functions of creativity.\nHard on Content, Soft on Delivery # My high school\u0026rsquo;s motto was \u0026ldquo;Fortiter in re, suaviter in modo\u0026rdquo;.\nThis translates to Firm in principle, gently in manner. According to this translation, \u0026ldquo;To do unhesitatingly what must be done but accomplishing it as inoffensively as possible\u0026rdquo;.\nDuring my conversation with Adam, we spoke about having boundaries with his time. That he is firm in what he wants to do but gentle in its delivery.\nIf a meeting finishes early, he will be clear that he must leave to complete other tasks. If he receives an email that wasn\u0026rsquo;t necessary, he will let the person know that he should not receive them in future.\nHaving strong boundaries doesn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily mean that you transform into a raging ball of fire when these lines get crossed. As Adam described, be firm in principle but gentle in manner.\nThe World Cup # Adam has very strong boundaries with his time. He explained it to me in the following way,\nMy wife during business hours never has a relaxed conversation with me because I\u0026rsquo;m sending her the signal that I\u0026rsquo;m on the field. I\u0026rsquo;m in the world cup. I\u0026rsquo;m playing. I don\u0026rsquo;t have time for distractions. So if it\u0026rsquo;s important, tell me what it is. If it\u0026rsquo;s not, let\u0026rsquo;s wait until after the game, when I\u0026rsquo;ve got the headspace\nWhat are you like when you work? Are you always distracted, on your phone, not paying attention?\nOr are you treating your work like you are in the middle of a game at the world cup, with extreme focus and no distraction?\nIt was really interesting to hear how Adam approaches this, it\u0026rsquo;s clear that he has strong boundaries around his time and what he uses his time for.\nHe says,\nif people don\u0026rsquo;t get the sense that your time is super valuable commodity, then you\u0026rsquo;re sending the wrong signal to the world.\nYour time is valuable and people should appreciate that when interacting with you.\nFrom the Little Comes the Big # One of the things I like about Adam is the idea he shares of things called \u0026lsquo;fractals\u0026rsquo;.\nImagine you have an image and you zoom in, really far in. As you zoom in further, the larger image appears again and so on. Here are some examples of fractals in nature.\nThis idea from fractals can appear in our realities. In this LinkedIn post, Adam shared how you treat one day is how you treat your week, is how you treat your life.\nI asked him about this during our interview and he said,\nAnd it is absolutely the case that if you live your day disciplines in thought and action. So too, will you be your year? So two will be your your life. And so be always faithful with the little, because from the little comes, the big.\nFrom the little, comes the big.\nLeadership is not Management # Adam describes management as the following,\nManagement is about how to extract efficiencies from resources.\nAnd the difference between leadership and management.\nLeadership is not management. Management is about how to extract efficiencies from resources. I think it applies well to objects. So it\u0026rsquo;s applied well to inventory, to resources that are dug out of the ground. [\u0026hellip;] One shouldn\u0026rsquo;t manage people, one should lead people. And the reason you lead people is because they are living and they are functioning at a level of consciousness that should not be confused with an object. Human beings have feelings, they have dreams, they have aspirations and they need to be handled with wisdom and care. And and sadly, if you\u0026rsquo;re self-centered, you treat them as a resource. You treat them as a cog in your machine? No human being is a cog in your machine.\nAs leaders, we should see our people for who they are, real people. We aren\u0026rsquo;t just there to maximise their output, but to develop our team and grow together.\nAligning Dreams # From the previous point, we know that management is not leadership. What is leadership, then?\nThat’s leadership, how to align the people that are working with you, align their dreams with the problem you\u0026rsquo;re trying to solve.\nLeadership is about aligning dreams. Aligning the dreams of those in the team with the dreams of the organisation.\nPublic Speaking as Noise for Leadership # This was a massive call by Adam, and one that I believe is also true. People are often promoted at work for their excellent communication skills, but not necessarily their good leadership skills.\nWestern economics generally promote people into leadership based on public speaking and and their ego, their level of outward confidence. [..] it seems to be a glitch in the human mind, that it confuses leadership for public speaking ability and, and overt confidence.\nSo be wary of those that may be in positions of power simply because of their good communication skills.\nAnother way to look at this is that given the \u0026lsquo;glitch in the human mind\u0026rsquo; as Adam describes, working on your communcation and becoming confident may set you up for more opportunities. People are overvaluing communication, so if you want a successful career, it makes sense to be good at it.\nAdam\u0026rsquo;s Recommendations # Through this episode, Adam recommended a slew of different resources\nThe Art of Extra-Ordinary Confidence\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30741498-the-art-of-extraordinary-confidence\nThe Way of the Peaceful Warrior\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2255.Way_of_the_Peaceful_Warrior\nThe Celestine Prophecy\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13103.The_Celestine_Prophecy\nThe War of Art: Winning the Inner Creative Battle\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1319.The_War_of_Art\nThe Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21343.The_Five_Dysfunctions_of_a_Team\nGhandi - 1981\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi_(film)\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Adam # https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamgeha/\n📝 Show Timestamps # 00:00 Intro\n00:44 How Important is Time Management\n02:16 Adam\u0026rsquo;s Time Management Practices\n07:38 Parts of Time Management that Adam thinks are under-appreciated\n11:37 Boundaries on Your Time\n14:01 Your Life as a Fractal\n16:25 Adam\u0026rsquo;s Thoughts on Time Management Changing over Time\n24:37 Adam thoughts on Bad Leadership advice\n25:54 Adam on Culture Building\n29:06 Adam\u0026rsquo;s Recommendations\n30:51 What Adam was like in his 20\u0026rsquo;s\n34:56 What has been Adam\u0026rsquo;s more worthwhile investment?\n37:34 Adam\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n40:33 Outro\n","date":"7 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/20-on-time-management-and-leadership-with-adam-geha/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #20 of Graduate Theory. This episode is with one of the most impressive guests we’ve interviewed so far.\n","title":"On Time Management and Leadership with Adam Geha","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 20\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nAdam: It seems to be a glitch in the human mind that it confuses leadership with public speaking ability and overt confidence.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest has over 25 years of experience in the investment management industry.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s a CEO and co-founder of EG, a data-driven investment manager and developer with over $4.3 billion of assets under management and a $3.9 billion development pipeline. He\u0026rsquo;s a thought leader and a philosopher at heart. Please welcome Adam.\nAdam: Thank you, James. Very nice to be with you.\nJames: Thanks, mate.\nHow Important is Time Management # James: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on the show today, and I want to start by asking you about time management. It\u0026rsquo;s obviously a big focus for leaders today, and I\u0026rsquo;m interested to hear your thoughts. How important do you think time management is for leaders in 2022?\nAdam: I think time management is always important.\nI think it has been important since Adam was a young boy, and that\u0026rsquo;s not speaking of me; that\u0026rsquo;s going back to Genesis. I think that any leader worth their salt in any era—I dare say it was true for kings in medieval times—knows this very basic truth: we all have 24 hours in a day. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter how rich, powerful or experienced we are. We still only have 24 hours in a day. If you\u0026rsquo;re sensible, a big chunk of that is sleep. So what remains, typically 16 hours, is the lot that we are each given every day to perform all the important tasks of the day. That includes not only your business life, because that\u0026rsquo;s just one aspect; it also needs to go to personal care and exercise, leisure and relationships, the most important of which is family. So if you are not interested in the question of how to extract maximum impact from those 16 waking hours, in my view you are not thinking straight and, frankly, you\u0026rsquo;re not even on the field in terms of high performance.\nAdam\u0026rsquo;s Time Management Practices # James: It\u0026rsquo;s really interesting to hear how important you consider time management. Certainly, it\u0026rsquo;s an all-encompassing thing. I\u0026rsquo;m curious to hear: how do you go about managing your time? Are there any structures or practices that you have in place to help manage your time more efficiently?\nAdam: Yes, we all do—or every high-performing person has thought deeply about time management and developed certain routines adapted to their personality and needs. The first law is that nothing is universal. Human beings are unique. We have different idiosyncrasies, temperaments and preferences. Some people are morning people; some people are night people. I\u0026rsquo;ll give you a smattering of things that work for me, and hopefully it\u0026rsquo;s a smorgasbord for your readers to trial.\nThe first thing is: revere routine. Routine is your friend. I used to think of routine as what boring people do. I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to be routined. I\u0026rsquo;m a creative person, an inventor and an entrepreneur. Some days I\u0026rsquo;d stay up late; some days I\u0026rsquo;d go to sleep early. Some days I\u0026rsquo;d brush my teeth in the morning; sometimes I\u0026rsquo;d brush my teeth at night. Some days I\u0026rsquo;d exercise in the morning; some days I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t exercise at all.\nSometimes I\u0026rsquo;d exercise at night. It turns out this type of creativity is actually not creativity at all. It leads to a less productive and less creative life. I\u0026rsquo;ll come back to how it is less creative shortly, but it\u0026rsquo;s certainly less productive because you\u0026rsquo;re using RAM every day to invent a new routine. You\u0026rsquo;re having to use more brainpower to achieve the tasks of the day, which leaves you with less RAM for the unique problems of the day. If you\u0026rsquo;ve got tasks that are routine, you should have routines to deal with them so that they don\u0026rsquo;t use RAM, because you are going to get non-routine problems and tasks for which you need to consume genuine RAM.\nI know of highly successful people, for example, who reverse park their car so that it saves them time in the morning when they\u0026rsquo;re getting out: they don\u0026rsquo;t need to reverse out. I, for example, standardise what I wear. I have 10 EG shirts and 10 EG jackets, so they\u0026rsquo;re always washed and ready, and I just put jeans on. I\u0026rsquo;ve got two pairs of the same shoes, so I\u0026rsquo;m never having to look for a pair. I literally get ready in three minutes once I\u0026rsquo;m showered. I always shower at the same time and brush my teeth in the shower. I always shave just before I go into the shower. These are routines designed to save me time.\nThe same is true of my exercise routine and my gratitude routine. I always recite five or six things that I\u0026rsquo;m grateful for when I turn the tap on for my morning shower. I\u0026rsquo;ve anchored my mind: the minute I turn the tap on, I start reciting the things I\u0026rsquo;m grateful for. My day is full of these anchors and routines designed to free up my time for non-routine tasks.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve found that I\u0026rsquo;ve become more creative by eliminating RAM being used for routine tasks. If you are a creative, I\u0026rsquo;m here to tell you that, in my experience, routine is your friend. By performing routine tasks in a routine way, you liberate your mind for the higher functions of creativity.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s just one aspect. Another little tip is: don\u0026rsquo;t default to one-hour meetings. When people approach me, say on LinkedIn, and want to have a coffee with me, I typically default to 30 or 45 minutes, depending on the person\u0026rsquo;s profile. Because it\u0026rsquo;s a meet and greet, I don\u0026rsquo;t want to spend an hour meeting and greeting somebody; that typically takes me half an hour.\nIf the person and I connect, there\u0026rsquo;s always the prospect of another meeting. I think we\u0026rsquo;re lazy in the way we set meetings: we default far too often to one-hour meetings. We should think more in terms of half an hour to 45 minutes. You find that very little is lost between an hour and 45 minutes. Between an hour and 30 minutes, the bit that\u0026rsquo;s lost is the bonhomie, the rapport, the introduction—this soft stuff. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to lose that, but if I\u0026rsquo;m meeting with somebody well known to me, I don\u0026rsquo;t have to have that preamble. I can go straight into the work that needs to be done and apologise for the fact that my busy schedule does not permit more time.\nI still try to squeeze in five minutes at the end that is more personal in nature. Those are just a couple of tips. There\u0026rsquo;s literally a score of these, and we could be talking for an hour just on time management. It\u0026rsquo;s that important.\nParts of Time Management that Adam thinks are under-appreciated # James: Certainly. What aspects of time management do you think people undervalue? You have a great example there with routine: you need to set yourself up well so you can focus your time and energy on the things that aren\u0026rsquo;t routine. Are there other things that people don\u0026rsquo;t take seriously enough?\nAdam: I suppose books aren\u0026rsquo;t written about it. There are books written about time management, and some of them are indeed excellent. The area I think people probably don\u0026rsquo;t talk about enough is getting appropriate support through your executive assistant or assistants. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a full-time, dedicated executive assistant. Often there are pressures on her to be shared. I resist because I need her to be very focused on me to help liberate my time.\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s really good bang for the buck for the business, given that my hourly rate is very high. Using my time wisely is a top priority for the business. I get her to help me with personal stuff because, if I spend time during the business day working on the camp I\u0026rsquo;m doing with my daughter through her school, I could do that, but delegating it is better for the business. I don\u0026rsquo;t have any reservations about using an executive assistant to liberate my time during business hours from personal stuff, because I think it\u0026rsquo;s of direct benefit to the business.\nShe also reads all my emails before I read them. I don\u0026rsquo;t read my inbox. She takes about 10 per cent of it and puts it into what\u0026rsquo;s called the important emails. I tell all my staff: if you\u0026rsquo;re writing an email and my name does not appear at the front of the email, or you don\u0026rsquo;t have a specific action item for me, I\u0026rsquo;m not reading the email. You\u0026rsquo;re just CCing me for comfort, and I don\u0026rsquo;t have time to check on your work and whether you\u0026rsquo;re doing it well. You know your authority and the limits of what you can do without referring back to me. If it\u0026rsquo;s not urgent, you have a weekly meeting with me, so raise it then. Don\u0026rsquo;t write me an email.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not interested in background. If I\u0026rsquo;m being CCed, I\u0026rsquo;m not reading it. You have to specifically ask for an action item from me. If that happens, it goes into my important emails. If I feel it should not have been an email and should have been raised in a meeting, I\u0026rsquo;ll politely and gently remind you: don\u0026rsquo;t write me emails that I don\u0026rsquo;t have time to read. If it can wait for the weekly meeting, batch your questions and ask them at the meeting. Those are some things I think are important. I think emails are a distraction. I encourage people to communicate with me through WhatsApp because they then become briefer.\nWhatsApp, because of the size of the text box, subliminally encourages you to chunk your thoughts into sentences that are short and sharp. Then I can respond to each component of your thoughts by responding to each sentence separately. I tell people: unless you\u0026rsquo;ve got a really detailed memo, in which case I think you should present it to me at a meeting where I can ask you questions, just send me text messages through WhatsApp.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s all I\u0026rsquo;m interested in. Unfortunately, email encourages people to write two or three pages. I don\u0026rsquo;t have time to read two pages, so I say: do that with the rest of the people who like reading emails. That\u0026rsquo;s not my gig.\nBoundaries on Your Time # James: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. I\u0026rsquo;m picking up that you have really strong boundaries around your time. Something has to be quite valuable to get through that barrier, through that boundary, and I think that\u0026rsquo;s really important.\nAdam: It\u0026rsquo;s not rude, by the way, to police your time.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to let your listeners know that it\u0026rsquo;s not rude to police the boundaries of your time. It\u0026rsquo;s actually an act of kindness to them, to you and to the business. Just don\u0026rsquo;t be gruff or rude about doing it. I try always to be soft in delivery but hard on content. The point I would make about policing your time is that if people don\u0026rsquo;t get the sense that your time is a super-valuable commodity, then you\u0026rsquo;re sending the wrong signal to the world.\nThey should immediately feel that when they\u0026rsquo;re handling your time, they\u0026rsquo;re handling something super valuable. When a meeting\u0026rsquo;s content ends early, I go, \u0026ldquo;Are we finished? Okay, can I now leave?\u0026rdquo; Just because it\u0026rsquo;s a half-hour meeting, if we\u0026rsquo;ve done it in 15 minutes, fantastic. I can hop out 15 minutes early and make a couple of phone calls. When my wife calls me, I almost always answer.\nOr I\u0026rsquo;ll tell her that I\u0026rsquo;ll call her back shortly, but I\u0026rsquo;ll let her know I\u0026rsquo;m in a meeting and ask, \u0026ldquo;Is it important?\u0026rdquo; My wife never has a relaxed conversation with me during business hours because I\u0026rsquo;m sending her the signal that I\u0026rsquo;m on the field. I\u0026rsquo;m in the World Cup. I\u0026rsquo;m playing. I don\u0026rsquo;t have time for distractions. If it\u0026rsquo;s important, tell me what it is. If it\u0026rsquo;s not, let\u0026rsquo;s wait until after the game, when I\u0026rsquo;ve got the headspace. That\u0026rsquo;s with my wife. But I\u0026rsquo;ll always take a call from my mum because she calls me very irregularly, and I worry that she needs my help or she\u0026rsquo;s in a bad spot.\nYou do need to take certain calls, but you need to be very clear with everyone who treats with your time that they\u0026rsquo;re dealing with a valuable commodity.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s a great piece of advice. I like how you were saying that it reflects how you value your time and how you let other people respect your time. The way those things intertwine is really powerful.\nYour Life as a Fractal # James: I was recently going through your LinkedIn and looking at all the wonderful posts you have. One of them was about how the universe is a fractal, and how looking at one day is almost like looking at your whole year or your whole life.\nI thought that was really profound, and I can link it in the show notes so people can go and read it. What was your inspiration? Do you remember this post? What\u0026rsquo;s the inspiration behind that?\nAdam: Of course I can.\nI\u0026rsquo;m mystically inclined, so I\u0026rsquo;m very interested in transcendental meditation: the union one gets in the deeper realisation that we are part of something far greater. I very much feel that my life is part of a broader tapestry of human evolution as a species towards a higher consciousness.\nI see myself as part of a great adventure of raising human consciousness to a level where it feels centredness, inner peace, compassion and non-judgement. In that context, I\u0026rsquo;m very fascinated with Eastern mysticism, which has lots of repetitive patterns. For example, the thousand-petalled lotus is fractal.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a vision you get in deep meditation, and it signifies a feeling of union with the greater stream of consciousness, which is manifested creation. I\u0026rsquo;m an admirer of trees and clouds, and I take lots of photos of trees and clouds. They are epiphanies for me.\nEspecially when I\u0026rsquo;m cycling for exercise in the morning, I\u0026rsquo;ll pause if I see a beautiful pattern of clouds or a beautiful tree, and I\u0026rsquo;ll take detailed photos. Both clouds and trees are fractal. They are a symbol of how the universe is constructed. From the little comes the big; it is the pattern of the universe.\nIt is absolutely the case that if you live your day disciplined in thought and action, so too will be your year, and so too will be your life. Be always faithful with the little, because from the little comes the big.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really profound. Great advice there.\nAdam\u0026rsquo;s Thoughts on Time Management Changing over Time # James: I want to ask again about your time management. You\u0026rsquo;ve been talking about the executive assistant, and that\u0026rsquo;s perhaps something that\u0026rsquo;s only come into your life in a more recent period. I\u0026rsquo;m curious about how your time management has changed over time, because some people might not have that support. How has it changed for you?\nAdam: It changes very much as you get older and more senior, with greater responsibilities.\nTo give you an idea, I\u0026rsquo;m managing eight companies in some capacity. I\u0026rsquo;ve got two investments on personal account that are companies, and I\u0026rsquo;m involved in three charitable foundations. So there are 13 organisations to which I make a meaningful contribution at a strategic level.\nThere are a couple to which I make a meaningful contribution at an operational level. I\u0026rsquo;m always busy now. I don\u0026rsquo;t have the luxury of not thinking about one of those 13 things when I\u0026rsquo;ve got a spare moment, because I know I can add value. It\u0026rsquo;s a really interesting life, but I obviously need to learn how to put boundaries on it so my wife and children also get access to me, and vice versa.\nYour attitude towards time definitely changes: you revere time more as you get more senior. I would love to say to your young listeners: treat time as though it is super precious while you\u0026rsquo;re 23, because you will most certainly treat it as super precious when you\u0026rsquo;re my age and you\u0026rsquo;re 50.\nWhy not commence that practice, knowing that it will become a reality of your life? Bring it in early, make it part of your life today, and you will get so much more. I just wish I had the disciplines I have now when I was 23. By the way, I\u0026rsquo;ve had an EA fully dedicated to me for about 10 years.\nShe\u0026rsquo;s in Manila, so it costs me a fraction of what it would cost to hire an Australian executive assistant. I can actually afford to have two or three in Manila. Indeed, I might well go down the path of getting a second executive assistant once I feel that the workload for the first is maxed out. It\u0026rsquo;s every bit worth the investment.\nAs soon as you can afford an executive assistant, whether it\u0026rsquo;s paid for by your business or not, you should invest in one because that person is going to enable you to perform. I\u0026rsquo;m able to produce literally two or three times the output of my 35-year-old self. What\u0026rsquo;s that worth? Millions of dollars.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s incredible. It\u0026rsquo;s a great point too, because I hadn\u0026rsquo;t even thought of having someone international take care of that side of things.\nAdam: Fortunately for Australians, we can hire at a fraction of the cost overseas. The Philippines works well because of its time zone, cultural fit and English-speaking skills.\nFaith is amazing. She\u0026rsquo;s my EA. Her English-speaking skills are better than some of the Australian staff we\u0026rsquo;ve got. She\u0026rsquo;s absolutely fluent, and she\u0026rsquo;s got a beautiful speaking voice. When she calls our clients to set up meetings, I always know she represents the brand in a very professional way. She has a very beautiful nature and demeanour.\nShe\u0026rsquo;s highly intelligent and a very capable support for me.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great. It\u0026rsquo;s great to see how much value someone like that can provide, and how working together enables you to achieve so much more. It\u0026rsquo;s really exciting.\nAdam: She\u0026rsquo;s actually one of the most important people in my life.\nJames: I want to talk now about the leadership side of things, because I know leadership and young leaders are things you\u0026rsquo;re really passionate about. I know you\u0026rsquo;ve said you\u0026rsquo;ve mentored people who are up-and-coming leaders.\nWhat kind of advice and tips do you often give to people starting on that leadership journey? Are there similar things you often share with them?\nAdam: I think you\u0026rsquo;re right in saying that. If you look at LinkedIn—I think they only store six months\u0026rsquo; worth of my posts—I started more or less a year ago doing two or three posts a week.\nI now do three posts every week: Monday, Wednesday and Friday. If you were to look at the content, about 70 to 80 per cent is on leadership. I\u0026rsquo;ve got hundreds of messages about what I believe leadership is about. If you asked me what is near and dear to my heart to broadcast to an audience, I would say this.\nThe thing nearest and dearest to my heart is that corporate Australia—and I think this is true of Western economies generally—promotes people into leadership based on public speaking, their ego and their level of outward confidence.\nIt seems to be a glitch in the human mind that it confuses leadership with public speaking ability and overt confidence. This is a great lament for me because, over and over again, I hear about leaders who are very confident and great public speakers, but are self-centred. Self-centredness is a disqualifier for leadership.\nLeadership is not management. Management is about how to extract efficiencies from resources. I think it applies well to inanimate objects. It applies well to inventory and resources dug out of the ground. But it does not apply to people. One shouldn\u0026rsquo;t manage people; one should lead people.\nThe reason you lead people is because they are living and functioning at a level of consciousness that should not be confused with an object. Human beings have feelings, dreams and aspirations, and they need to be handled with wisdom and care. Sadly, if you\u0026rsquo;re self-centred, you treat them as a resource.\nYou treat them as a cog in your machine. No human being is a cog in your machine. Immanuel Kant, a German idealist philosopher in the 19th century, had a categorical imperative that said people are not a means to an end; they are an end in themselves. That\u0026rsquo;s one of his ethical principles.\nWhen you treat human beings as a means to an end, you are treating them as a cog in a wheel, an object, subservient to your dream. You commit a category error and therefore act unethically. You are not a leader. You can only be a leader if you treat human beings as an end in themselves.\nThey\u0026rsquo;ve got their own dreams and aspirations, and you need to lead them by aligning the problem you want to solve with the dream they want to attain. That\u0026rsquo;s leadership: how to align the dreams of the people working with you with the problem you\u0026rsquo;re trying to solve.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a spiritual vocation. You cannot turn it into a mathematical equation designed to maximise efficiency. That\u0026rsquo;s a tool, but leadership in the end is spiritual.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really profound. I like that a lot. What is some advice, then?\nAdam thoughts on Bad Leadership advice # James: I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you\u0026rsquo;re across leadership advice generally. Is there any leadership advice you see and think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s not good leadership advice. I can\u0026rsquo;t understand why people are being told this; they should be told something else\u0026rdquo;? Is there any bad advice you\u0026rsquo;ve heard?\nAdam: I don\u0026rsquo;t tend to focus on advice I disagree with. I live my life by promulgating what I believe in. I don\u0026rsquo;t think it\u0026rsquo;s helpful to criticise other people\u0026rsquo;s work because it simply draws out a defensive posture. Quite often, people will say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve misunderstood me.\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;What I really meant was this,\u0026rdquo; and so on. My attitude is not to focus on bad advice. The one thing I would say is: steer away from anyone who confuses ego and public speaking ability with leadership. It\u0026rsquo;s a category error. You\u0026rsquo;re confusing a skill—public speaking—and a temperament—confidence—with leadership.\nGood leaders are confident, but they don\u0026rsquo;t have to be overtly confident. They certainly don\u0026rsquo;t need to have a loud ego; they can have a very quiet confidence. But leaders do need to be confident because, if they\u0026rsquo;re insecure, they\u0026rsquo;ll project their insecurities onto their team.\nAdam on Culture Building # James: I think that\u0026rsquo;s fascinating. You\u0026rsquo;re a leader yourself, running all these companies and helping out in so many different ways. How do you go about leading and creating a culture where people are high-performing and striving for things that, as you said, match their own interests with the interests of the business?\nI know it\u0026rsquo;s quite broad, but are there any principles or things you use in that process?\nAdam: Of course. Culture-building is an essential function of leadership. Culture is real and very impactful, and it can be defined not only by what we do around here and how we do it, but also by why we do it this way.\nOnce the what, how and why are absorbed at a subconscious level, culture is an extremely powerful guide to behaviour. Over time, people actually change in the direction of the culture in which they live day to day. Never underestimate the power of culture. It\u0026rsquo;s a hugely important behavioural guide, and it is very much the supreme function and responsibility of a leader to lead the culture.\nThere are many things we do on a cultural level. It\u0026rsquo;s worthy of a separate interview. We\u0026rsquo;ve got about 25 different policies and have experimented with about 50. We\u0026rsquo;re constantly innovating on culture. How do we send the message to people that we want them to be ambitious, and we also want them to be kind? That means we need them to have a growth mindset, give a damn, honour their word, take risks, give back and value relationships. How we instil those values is a very creative endeavour. I\u0026rsquo;m forever coming up with new ideas.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re constantly innovating in that regard, whether it be paid sabbaticals or milestone celebrations where we take the whole team overseas with us for 10 days. We\u0026rsquo;ve got a hobby program connected to additional annual leave. We make the hobby program alternate between sporting and cultural activities.\nWe pay for 70 per cent of the hobby. We encourage you to do it with a work colleague; if you do, we\u0026rsquo;ll pay for 100 per cent of it. We also encourage you to do your hobby with your family, and we\u0026rsquo;d pay 70 per cent of that. We\u0026rsquo;re forever looking for ways to engage our staff in life and in living an inspired life, not just in being a high performer at work.\nWe also invest in training sessions. We\u0026rsquo;ve got one coming up on The Art of Extraordinary Confidence. It\u0026rsquo;s a book I recommend to people I mentor, and we\u0026rsquo;re doing a workshop around it. Culture is the stuff of leadership.\nAdam\u0026rsquo;s Recommendations # James: That\u0026rsquo;s amazing. You mentioned a book that you recommend to people. What kinds of things do you recommend to the people you mentor?\nAdam: There\u0026rsquo;s a whole battery of them, and it depends on the main task.\nIf you want to be good at mentoring, you have to listen deeply to what that person needs at that particular time. It\u0026rsquo;s a bit like a chess game: the next move depends on where all the pieces are. The first task is to find out where all the pieces are, then find out where that person has a bottleneck. That\u0026rsquo;s where their focus, reading and podcast listening should be: on liberating the bottleneck they\u0026rsquo;re currently experiencing.\nAll you\u0026rsquo;ve got to do is get the next move right. To give you an example, for people who are interested in spiritual thought, I often recommend Way of the Peaceful Warrior and The Celestine Prophecy, which help you understand the world energetically.\nFor people wanting to pluck up the courage to start, The War of Art. For people looking to develop self-esteem, self-worth and confidence, The Art of Extraordinary Confidence is a great book. There are many others, but for those interested in leading teams, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team is an excellent book.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s actually the cultural bible of EG.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a lot to go on. I think some of those resources will be really helpful for me and for the audience.\nWhat Adam was like in his 20\u0026rsquo;s # James: I want to take a step back now to what you were like when you were a bit younger, perhaps in your twenties. Did you have any transformational experiences during that period? Or perhaps there were some failures that worked out well and turned out to be really valuable for you. Does anything come to mind?\nAdam: Of course, a lot. I would say that in my twenties, I already knew I wanted to be a successful entrepreneur, so that always helps. I often ask, \u0026ldquo;What made Madonna and Tom Cruise successful?\u0026rdquo; Even when I was 20, I used to say that the reason they\u0026rsquo;re successful is because they knew at an early age who they wanted to be and what they wanted to achieve.\nWhen you get that clarity of vision about your life, the world bends in the direction of your vision. The clearer and more certain it is, the more the world bends in your direction. That\u0026rsquo;s the first thing. In terms of early experiences, there are two that spring to mind.\nThe first is that I had a mystical experience when I was in my twenties. When I met my wife, I literally felt there was a hand pushing me towards her and insisting that I introduce myself. For the first time in my life, I walked up to her without knowing her and introduced myself cold. She was just exiting law school, and I accosted her. I\u0026rsquo;d never done that before.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve never done it since. It was a totally new experience for me. I felt I was being commanded to do it. As a result, I\u0026rsquo;ve been extremely open to the idea that there is much in the unseen world that is real, and that it should inform a wise and inspirational life. I\u0026rsquo;ve always made sure to feed my spiritual self as well as my business mind, physical body and emotional self.\nI feel there\u0026rsquo;s a spiritual dimension that needs to be nurtured separately and should be given command of all other aspects of your life, because it is actually the wisest part of you. I would say that\u0026rsquo;s a seminal experience. Separately, I suffered from chronic fatigue at the age of about 21.\nI was doing my honours year in economics, and that basically told me two things. One is that I felt like my spirit was deliberately wanting me to take time out to reflect on the meaning of the life I wanted to live, so it was giving me the time to reflect. Secondly, it was emphasising the importance of physical routine and friendship, because I had become a bit disconnected from my friends, who had moved on to the next academic year.\nI stayed behind with a small group of people doing honours, so I became a little disconnected from my social network, and I felt out of rhythm with my exercise. As a result, my body sent me the signal, \u0026ldquo;All is not well.\u0026rdquo; But I also felt it had spiritual import.\nFor me, I\u0026rsquo;m a student of patterns. Whenever I see a pattern, I look for its cause and ask, \u0026ldquo;What do I learn from the cause? How can I now use this knowledge to create a more positive path?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s fractal.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I\u0026rsquo;m loving that thread that seems to carry through a lot of what you do: the philosophy, fractals and these kinds of things. It\u0026rsquo;s quite unique, and it\u0026rsquo;s fascinating to hear how that impacts and affects many of your decisions. I\u0026rsquo;ve got two more questions for you.\nWhat has been Adam\u0026rsquo;s more worthwhile investment? # James: What would you say has been your most worthwhile investment of time or money? Perhaps it\u0026rsquo;s a course you did, a job you had, a book you read or an experience you had.\nAdam: In my late teens, I became deeply interested in mysticism. I read the Bible for the first time—the four Gospels—from scratch. If you do that with a sincere heart, you encounter a real person called Jesus Christ. Whatever you may think of him, Jesus Christ was an extraordinary human being and a great leader.\nHe was bold. He was a great communicator—an amazing communicator. He was decisive. He was purpose-driven. Because I got acquainted with and was inspired by him, I would say that is probably the most significant investment of time I\u0026rsquo;ve made in any particular task or book, because it\u0026rsquo;s foundational.\nTo this day, I draw inspiration from his life, behaviour, mission and principles. I think it\u0026rsquo;s really important, whether it\u0026rsquo;s Christ or someone else. I\u0026rsquo;m also very deeply inspired by Mahatma Gandhi. He\u0026rsquo;s my hero of the 20th century, followed closely by Nelson Mandela and Einstein.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re three amazing people. I read biographies, autobiographies and quotations from their journals. I\u0026rsquo;m constantly looking to learn from them because I think they\u0026rsquo;re amazing human beings.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I think people like that, who have done amazing things, are really worth investigating further.\nAdam: I\u0026rsquo;d also recommend to your listeners, if they haven\u0026rsquo;t watched it, the 1981 movie Gandhi, which won an Oscar for Best Film. Sir Ben Kingsley plays Gandhi, and he\u0026rsquo;s so good in that role that you literally forget he\u0026rsquo;s an actor and start feeling it\u0026rsquo;s Gandhi himself.\nWhenever I feel in need of inspiration, I watch that movie: the power of one person, one individual with principles, desire and the capacity to sacrifice for the principle.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great. I\u0026rsquo;ll have to give it a watch.\nAdam: You should watch it. It\u0026rsquo;s an amazing movie.\nYou need a couple of hours.\nAdam\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, Adam, just to finish off. A lot of the listeners here are younger. They\u0026rsquo;re perhaps starting their careers or in the first few years of their careers. Thinking back to your own experience at that time, is there any advice or any lessons you would give yourself if you were in that position again?\nAdam: Dream big. Be bold. It takes just as much effort to achieve big goals as it does small ones, so you might as well dream big. Make sure you believe in yourself. I\u0026rsquo;m going to write a series of microblogs on self-belief because it\u0026rsquo;s becoming apparent to me that a number of people beginning the entrepreneurial journey just need to increase their self-belief.\nSelf-belief means that, no matter what happens or what the task is, you\u0026rsquo;re equal to and up to the task. This type of self-worth and self-belief is absolutely indispensable to success. Then I would say: go out and find a mentor or two. I have two or three at any given time, and I mentor about six or seven because I believe the world is a big circle.\nWhen you\u0026rsquo;re receiving, you need to give. Then the universe keeps giving you more and more mentors if you\u0026rsquo;re mentoring others. I would definitely say: believe in yourself, dream big and surround yourself with one or two wise mentors. Go for walks in the park with them, put the problems of the week in front of them and ask what they think you should do.\nIf you do that often enough, you\u0026rsquo;ll gain a lot of wisdom.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s great advice. It\u0026rsquo;s been fascinating chatting to you today, Adam, and there\u0026rsquo;s some value in here for people around productivity, leadership and all the things we\u0026rsquo;ve discussed. If someone is listening and wants to find out more about you and what you do, where would you like them to go?\nAdam: My LinkedIn profile is the only place where I blog about business. In time, I\u0026rsquo;ll also set up a separate blog on spirituality and philosophy because I think they are hugely valuable in guiding a human life. But I haven\u0026rsquo;t begun that yet; it\u0026rsquo;s a separate website that I\u0026rsquo;ll set up. So, my LinkedIn profile, Adam Geha at EG.\nYou can also find out a bit about EG by visiting the EG website, eg.com.au. You\u0026rsquo;ll find out a little about our big thinking, which is building good thinking: how to integrate philosophical principles into the very fabric of your business.\nJames: Great. Thanks so much for sharing that with us, and thanks so much for your time.\nAdam: It\u0026rsquo;s been a pleasure meeting you.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope you got something out of it; I certainly did. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already, please consider subscribing to the Graduate Theory newsletter. You\u0026rsquo;ll get the episode and my takeaways straight to your inbox every single week.\nThanks so much for listening again today. And I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 20\n","date":"7 March 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/20-on-time-management-and-leadership-with-adam-geha/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 20\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Time Management and Leadership with Adam Geha","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis week we present #19 of Graduate Theory. On designing and side-hustling.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re not already growing your career, subscribe now so you never miss a beat 👇\nSubscribe Now\nPenny Talalak is a UX/UI Designer @ BCG Digital Ventures, Freelancer, Speaker \u0026amp; Mentor.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Speed is Key # Productivity is an ever-present problem.\nIt seems that we are always looking for ways to fit more in our days, to achieve more than we currently are.\nPenny explained to me that a major reason why she is able to do so much is that she makes fast decisions.\nDoing things very fast, that minimizes decision making time, if you decide something very slow, your life will probably be slow. If I want to do something, I\u0026rsquo;d do it straight away.\nPowerful people can quickly convert thoughts into reality.\nIncrease your power, make decisions faster.\nFail Fast to Learn Fast # Failure is seen as a bad thing.\nWe don\u0026rsquo;t want to fail because that would mean we didn\u0026rsquo;t succeed. We will look bad in front of our colleagues like we are not capable of doing a good job.\nIn reality, failure is the seed of all success. Every person that has succeeded has also failed.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the learnings that come from failing that are powerful. The more we fail, the more we learn.\nit\u0026rsquo;s always better to fail faster. So then you learn faster as well, right?\nFail fast, learn fast and eventually, succeed.\nYou only have to be right one time - Mark Cuban\nThink Deeper # When completing tasks, we can often fail to understand why the task is being completed.\nDuring the conversation with Penny, we spoke about the example of designing a logo for a business. On the surface, it\u0026rsquo;s a simple task.\nThe company wants a new logo, we design one, job done.\nBut here, we have made a mistake. We failed to deeply understand the problem.\nBy failing to think deeper, we are providing a surface-level solution to a problem that is much broader than we anticipated.\nUnderstanding what a logo means to a business, how it affects their customers and their culture, the psychology behind a good design, can be what takes your work from good to great.\nYou can design, I can design, everyone can design a website. Right. But what people don\u0026rsquo;t realise is the psychology behind it.\nUncover the reason why something needs to be done, and realise the benefits.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Penny # https://pennytalalak.github.io/\nhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/pennytalalak\n📝 Show Notes\n00:00 Penny Talalak\n00:00 Intro\n01:03 Penny\u0026rsquo;s First Side Hustle\n05:22 Commonalities in Penny\u0026rsquo;s Side Hustles\n08:07 Where Penny did Market Research\n09:23 What Penny Includes in Market Research\n11:40 Penny\u0026rsquo;s Current Market Research Method\n12:57 The Balance Between Market Research and Action\n15:14 Failing Fast\n17:48 Interests in the business Idea\n21:15 Penny\u0026rsquo;s Thoughts on Time Management\n27:45 Penny\u0026rsquo;s Time Management Tips\n31:13 The 5 Best Friends Rule\n33:29 Penny\u0026rsquo;s Thoughts on Becoming a Designer\n38:43 Attributes of Designing that Penny thinks are under-rated\n42:39 Penny\u0026rsquo;s Favourite Failure\n47:57 Penny\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n50:59 Contact Penny\n52:38 Outro\n","date":"28 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/19-on-designing-a-successful-side-hustle-with-penny-talalak/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nThis week we present #19 of Graduate Theory. On designing and side-hustling.\n","title":"On Designing a Successful Side Hustle with Penny Talalak","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 19\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a UX/UI designer at BCG Digital Ventures. She\u0026rsquo;s a freelance speaker and a mentor outside of working full time. She sells T-shirts, does food photography, writes blogs and researches crypto. Known for turning hobbies into businesses, please welcome the side hustle queen, Penny Talalak.\nPenny: I love that intro. It always puts a smile on my face.\nJames: I know, it was so good. I bet it must be good as a guest, getting someone saying all these nice things about you.\nPenny: I think it just made me realise that is a lot of things that I do. Having someone say it all in one sentence, I\u0026rsquo;m just like, I need you.\nJames: Definitely. We know you\u0026rsquo;re a very busy young woman and, like you said, you\u0026rsquo;ve got a lot of things going on. I\u0026rsquo;d love to touch on that at some point through this conversation.\nPenny\u0026rsquo;s First Side Hustle # James: But I want to take things back to start off with and talk about your experience with side hustles: doing things outside of uni or work, whatever it might be. Perhaps we can go back to your first experience with a side hustle. What did you end up doing? What were you selling, how old were you, and how did that come about?\nPenny: Sure. My first side hustle, which some people might know about, was selling jewellery when I was 17 years old. I started when I went back to Thailand during the long holiday between Year 12 and starting first-year uni. It was about four months off.\nBecause I was in Thailand, I didn\u0026rsquo;t have a part-time job, while everyone was doing summer school or such. I was really bored, so I wanted to sell something. I was young and didn\u0026rsquo;t go through a full process of defining the problem or what the users needed. I just wanted to make jewellery.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t research whether there was a need for it, but it was creative and I loved making things. I started by hand-making jewellery such as bracelets and necklaces, and got the materials from Thailand, so it was very convenient for me to start the hustle. I didn\u0026rsquo;t market it much. I just posted on Instagram and, you know, the first customers are always friends and family.\nFrom there, because I\u0026rsquo;d started an Instagram account and was already in Thailand, I started a website for it and did some website design. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t a designer back then, so my design wasn\u0026rsquo;t great, but I just needed something to do. I knew what I loved doing was selling. I love talking. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t say persuading people to buy stuff, but I love marketing and doing those kinds of things, like advocating for what I love doing. That\u0026rsquo;s one thing: you\u0026rsquo;ve got to believe in your products so that you can sell them. I loved my products and was really encouraging people to buy my jewellery. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;m good at. If I were to do sales for something else, probably not. I really have to love the products to do it. I did it for three years.\nFast-forward and I started doing engineering at university. I really wanted to be an engineer because it was one of the only occupations I knew that had a reputation, apart from doctors, lawyers and accountants. Everyone knew what engineering was, so I started doing engineering. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t really good at maths or physics; I just did it for the sake of that.\nI started the jewellery business before uni and kept doing it while studying engineering, which was tough. I was struggling in class as well as struggling to sell jewellery. I was just struggling in general and nothing was going well. I wanted to change degrees. It was either choose engineering or go to the business side.\nI wanted to change to commerce, and I thought about it every single day. I woke up and thought, \u0026ldquo;Do I need a commerce degree to be an entrepreneur? Do I need a commerce degree for another three years to have a business, when I already have a business?\u0026rdquo; I kept asking myself this. Maybe I\u0026rsquo;d do marketing, design or an entrepreneurship course. I ended up not doing it. I dropped engineering and went into a design degree instead, because engineering just wasn\u0026rsquo;t working for me.\nDuring university, UNSW was really into startups and had that business vibe. I had a lot of ideas because I was frustrated that I was struggling in engineering, and so were my friends. I wished I\u0026rsquo;d known engineering wasn\u0026rsquo;t for me before I got into it. I had a lot of ideas about how we could help future university students realise their passion and what the degree was like. I started applying to ideas competitions, startup competitions and pitching competitions, and writing my ideas down without a business plan or business model.\nI just had an idea, because it all starts with an idea, right? Actually, it started with a problem: my frustrations. Then I started researching it. Was it just me, or was this a common problem?\nCommonalities in Penny\u0026rsquo;s Side Hustles # James: Has that been a common theme? You said you were doing the jewellery, and there are other things you\u0026rsquo;ve done over time. Has it commonly been a problem for you, and then you\u0026rsquo;ve thought, \u0026ldquo;Perhaps this is a problem for other people,\u0026rdquo; and started that way?\nPenny: Yes, it always starts with me first. I have a problem and then think, \u0026ldquo;Am I alone? There\u0026rsquo;s got to be someone out there experiencing the same thing.\u0026rdquo; Whenever I come across a problem that\u0026rsquo;s a big issue and think maybe I\u0026rsquo;m not alone, I do surveys. I send them to my friends, who, if they\u0026rsquo;re listening right now, know me so well. They\u0026rsquo;re sick of my surveys, and I make them do them.\nEach survey I send out usually gets about 100 responses. For some where I really need responses, I push for it and get about 600. I just want to get surveys completed, so I have a lot of data. The weakness was that I didn\u0026rsquo;t know how to do data analysis. I had a lot of raw data, read through it and analysed it manually.\nI found it was a problem. When you have the data to back you up, you\u0026rsquo;re more likely to be able to pitch it and use that data to tell people or investors, \u0026ldquo;This is the problem. Six hundred people are facing it.\u0026rdquo; It helps a lot. I entered these competitions, pitched and got people to vote for me. It was more like a startup without a startup. Obviously, these ideas didn\u0026rsquo;t get through. It was just an idea and I was young.\nThen one of them reached out to me, one of the investment or VC ventures. They said, \u0026ldquo;We really like your idea. We\u0026rsquo;re happy to help you build it out and make it come to life.\u0026rdquo; I was so excited: wow, my idea is coming to life, as an app. Their proposal was, \u0026ldquo;If we\u0026rsquo;re going to design an app for you, it costs about $10,000.\u0026rdquo; I was 19 years old and thought, \u0026ldquo;No way. I don\u0026rsquo;t have $10,000. No, thank you. I\u0026rsquo;ll just keep my ideas to myself.\u0026rdquo;\nThat idea now actually exists. I see it out there; someone did it. I met the co-founder and said, \u0026ldquo;Five years ago, I did the research on it,\u0026rdquo; or something like that. It\u0026rsquo;s so common now. So many people are solving similar problems to the ones I went through, bridging the gap between high school and university and choosing the right degree. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t my big passion, and now so many businesses do it.\nWhere Penny did Market Research # James: You said you did surveys and got all that data. Where did you go to get it? Was it something you posted on Facebook and other social media, or did you go to a specific community for that problem?\nPenny: Because that problem involved high school and university students changing degrees and not knowing what they wanted to do, I sent it out to the UNSW Discussion Group. That page alone had about 10,000 people. I had people posting it on Facebook, and I also did it for high school students.\nA lot of my friends were tutoring high school students, so I sent it to them. I was tutoring as well, so I made my students do it. It was a lot of data; that\u0026rsquo;s why I reached about 600 people. It was mainly Facebook and direct messages. When it comes to surveys like these, I do post on Facebook, but I always direct-message people. That\u0026rsquo;s why my friends know me: \u0026ldquo;Another survey for Penny.\u0026rdquo; But I keep it really short and smart, so it isn\u0026rsquo;t a boring survey.\nWhat Penny Includes in Market Research # James: That was going to be my next question: what\u0026rsquo;s the structure like? It sounds like you\u0026rsquo;ve done a few and worked out the best way to do it. You keep it short and think carefully about the questions because you don\u0026rsquo;t get many to ask. How do you go about that?\nPenny: This was when I was 18, doing surveys anonymously. It\u0026rsquo;s probably what made me a UX designer now, asking questions and interviewing people. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have known I was a surveyor back in the day. I usually keep the questions to something you can do in less than 30 minutes, where you can answer quickly with boxes. I always use Google Forms because it\u0026rsquo;s cheap and free—sorry, because it\u0026rsquo;s actually free.\nThe questions can actually be quite long, but because of the way you introduce them, people stop realising the time and keep answering. It becomes, \u0026ldquo;I actually came across that problem. I\u0026rsquo;m angry about it.\u0026rdquo; Because you\u0026rsquo;re already halfway through, I think most people finish it.\nKeep the introduction to about one minute. The classic rule is never ask for their name or gender. I don\u0026rsquo;t think age range is necessary; try to minimise the amount of personal information as much as possible. For me, I asked what year of uni they were in, which was easy, and tried to use tick boxes and checkboxes as much as possible, minimising typing time. Checkboxes are quick and you can do them in seconds. The classic questions were, \u0026ldquo;What university do you go to? What year are you in?\u0026rdquo; Three seconds, done. Then, \u0026ldquo;What degree do you do?\u0026rdquo; They could type that in. Ask things they already know and don\u0026rsquo;t have to think about. That\u0026rsquo;s how you get people to do surveys quickly.\nPenny\u0026rsquo;s Current Market Research Method # James: Those are good things to consider. You said you did surveys a lot at university. Do you still do them, or do you use different kinds of market research now?\nPenny: Absolutely. Surveys are the easiest and cheapest way to do it now. Typeform is easier to use; that\u0026rsquo;s what we use at work, and UX designers usually do surveys. But now we have another type of testing: A/B testing with Facebook. It\u0026rsquo;s very easy but expensive, so you\u0026rsquo;ve got to have a budget for it.\nFacebook ads give you a lot of data: the kinds of people who click, the comments or likes you get and who interacts with your ads. That\u0026rsquo;s more data to validate with. But most of what I do now is probably user interviews, actually talking to people one by one. That\u0026rsquo;s more intimate and more costly because you\u0026rsquo;re paying for their time, but it\u0026rsquo;s more detailed and less quantitative. It\u0026rsquo;s more qualitative.\nThe Balance Between Market Research and Action # James: How do you balance market research with just doing something because you\u0026rsquo;re interested in it? You can sit and do market research for ages and never actually do the thing. Particularly with some of your current side hustles, what\u0026rsquo;s the right balance between researching the market and taking action?\nPenny: This is a tough one. When a lot of people want to start something, they do so much research. A great example is selling things on Amazon, Amazon FBA or starting an e-commerce business. Whatever business you\u0026rsquo;re starting, you do a lot of research, and that\u0026rsquo;s fine. I do research too, but I\u0026rsquo;m a very practical person.\nIt depends on the type of person you are. There\u0026rsquo;ll be a risk taker and a risk-averse type, and that\u0026rsquo;s fine. One might be faster than the other and might fail faster, but it\u0026rsquo;s always better to fail faster so you learn faster as well, right? One person might do so much research, but you don\u0026rsquo;t know whether it\u0026rsquo;s exactly right or wrong. You might watch many hours of Amazon FBA videos. I still watch them every day, and they\u0026rsquo;re so useful. But when you put them into practice, it\u0026rsquo;s different. Every video gives you an idea, but starting is the difficult bit. Even creating an account would be a great start, but not many people realise that. For me, it\u0026rsquo;s about taking a small step forward.\nI think designers have an advantage, but when I wasn\u0026rsquo;t a designer, I validated my ideas just by talking to people. That\u0026rsquo;s already part of market research. Talk to maybe five friends. Once you get to five and see that it\u0026rsquo;s not worth doing any more, or the idea probably already exists, that\u0026rsquo;s when you stop.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. You\u0026rsquo;ve built up these heuristics, or ways of doing things, over time because you\u0026rsquo;ve done plenty of this stuff.\nFailing Fast # James: You mentioned failing fast: if something isn\u0026rsquo;t going to work, you should find out quite soon. Have there been periods in your life, or side hustles you\u0026rsquo;ve tried, where you\u0026rsquo;ve had to balance, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s early days, I\u0026rsquo;m still improving it, so I\u0026rsquo;ll continue,\u0026rdquo; against, \u0026ldquo;It isn\u0026rsquo;t going to work, so I\u0026rsquo;ll stop\u0026rdquo;? When is it time to stop, versus pushing through people not liking it because you think it will be good?\nPenny: There are so many side hustles and businesses at the back of my mind, just a solid stack of ideas: I want to do this, I want to do that. But you\u0026rsquo;ve got to remember that, when you have a startup and your own business, you really have to dedicate and devote yourself to it for the rest of your life. That\u0026rsquo;s when you know it\u0026rsquo;s successful.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t think I\u0026rsquo;m passionate enough about this,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t think I like this enough.\u0026rdquo; I might like it at that moment, but when I think long term and ask, \u0026ldquo;Are you really passionate about this?\u0026rdquo;, I\u0026rsquo;ll probably get bored the next day. That\u0026rsquo;s when I realise I should stop thinking about it.\nBut I do go through an initial process: talking to friends and seeing whether there\u0026rsquo;s already something out there. This should take about half a day. It shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be a week-long thing—half a day or maybe one day, talking to different people and seeing what they think. That should already provide some validation for your idea.\nIf you see that it\u0026rsquo;s an actual problem, that\u0026rsquo;s when you start looking for competitors, whether there\u0026rsquo;s already a solution and what people are using. If there\u0026rsquo;s already a solution, you ask, \u0026ldquo;Should I really bother making another solution for it?\u0026rdquo; Let\u0026rsquo;s say I want to make another delivery app, but there are already so many delivery apps. You have to be so passionate about delivery and commit for five or ten years to beat Uber Eats. That\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;m not ready for. That\u0026rsquo;s when I know, before I even start, that I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do it.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting too: making your personal interest part of what you\u0026rsquo;re doing. How do you think about that?\nInterests in the business Idea # James: Would you ever pursue something you weren\u0026rsquo;t interested in because it was a good business idea, or do you notice straight away, \u0026ldquo;This is a cool idea, but I\u0026rsquo;m not into it, so I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do it\u0026rdquo;? How do you think about that?\nPenny: There are so many ideas that I think would be great, but I\u0026rsquo;m not passionate enough to actually do them. I just hope someone out there fixes the problem one day. I feel ideas should be transparent and shared around the world because you can\u0026rsquo;t really IP an idea. That\u0026rsquo;s stupid: you just say a word and it\u0026rsquo;s IP, in a sense. You can patent a business idea, but you\u0026rsquo;ve got to have a good, full business plan behind it. When it comes to brainstorming, no one\u0026rsquo;s going to patent the sticky notes or whatever they do. It costs a lot, and who\u0026rsquo;s going to bother? If you\u0026rsquo;re going to bother doing that, you\u0026rsquo;ve already wasted so much time and money that you might as well make the idea.\nA lot of people are very conservative about their own ideas, how things work and solutions. I try to encourage people to be more open about their ideas. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean people are stealing ideas. So many people say, \u0026ldquo;You stole my idea,\u0026rdquo; but Deliveroo is the same as Menulog and Uber Eats, and they\u0026rsquo;re still successful businesses. If you\u0026rsquo;re going to have a business and it already exists out there, I don\u0026rsquo;t think that should be a stopping point if you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about it.\nI just wasn\u0026rsquo;t passionate about it. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t bothered to compete with Uber Eats, but some people will be very passionate about food delivery and come up with a new business idea, like Milkrun. For example, there\u0026rsquo;s a new business idea with a scalable business model that doesn\u0026rsquo;t even scale. It only works in Redfern and the eastern suburbs; it doesn\u0026rsquo;t even deliver here. For that kind of business idea, I feel you really need to be bothered and passionate about it to build something.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s great advice.\nPenny: Unless you have a lot of money to throw at hiring someone to do it. Then it\u0026rsquo;s, \u0026ldquo;I acquired that and sold it to others.\u0026rdquo; Easy.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good point too. Your personal interest takes quite a high priority in the things you do. I guess that\u0026rsquo;s what will carry you over the long term. Even though it might be a good idea, is it really worth doing if you\u0026rsquo;re going to get bored quickly?\nPenny: You made a great point. It\u0026rsquo;s like, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t like doing this, but I make a lot of money and it\u0026rsquo;s a great thing.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;ll never be happy with it. At that point, you\u0026rsquo;ll realise money doesn\u0026rsquo;t make you happy. It\u0026rsquo;s the old saying.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good point.\nThanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so via the link in the show notes. The Graduate Theory newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.\nBut without further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s get back into it.\nPenny\u0026rsquo;s Thoughts on Time Management # James: I\u0026rsquo;m interested in your thoughts on time management and productivity when doing these things on the side. You\u0026rsquo;re working full time and have quite a few things on the side. How do you manage your time and think about productivity? Do you follow a system and fully plan your calendar, or are you more inclined to do what you feel like doing?\nPenny: A lot of people know me as a very structured, planned time-management person. If people want to see me, they have to book me two weeks in advance, and I know what I\u0026rsquo;m doing every weekend. Some months, such as February, I know what I\u0026rsquo;m doing until the end of February and my next availability is in mid-March.\nBut am I really that busy? Obviously not. There\u0026rsquo;s always time. You\u0026rsquo;re not actually doing something eight hours a day. You\u0026rsquo;re eating, showering or on Facebook. I\u0026rsquo;m on Facebook and Instagram all the time. I have time to post stories and watch Netflix. But while I\u0026rsquo;m doing these things, my mind is working, and this comes to multitasking.\nMy best tip is replying to things fast and doing things very fast. That minimises decision-making time. If you decide something very slowly, your life will probably be slow. I\u0026rsquo;m also a risk taker and don\u0026rsquo;t think too much. If I want to do something, I do it straight away. If I want to reply, I reply straight away. For me, it\u0026rsquo;s about reducing decision-making in your life.\nMark Zuckerberg explained why he always wears a grey T-shirt: it reduces decision-making in his life. Otherwise, you might spend five minutes choosing. For women, it can take two hours to choose what you\u0026rsquo;re going to wear outside. He made a really good point, and that\u0026rsquo;s how I live: reduce your decision-making time. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean being a risk taker who doesn\u0026rsquo;t make decisions at all—please don\u0026rsquo;t ever do that. It means being logical and smart, knowing, \u0026ldquo;If you do this, what\u0026rsquo;s the outcome? If you do that, what\u0026rsquo;s the outcome?\u0026rdquo; Reduce that time. Be a fast texter; that\u0026rsquo;s fine.\nI\u0026rsquo;m always a fast texter, always on my phone and always there for people. One reason is that, if you\u0026rsquo;re not there every minute, you\u0026rsquo;re losing an opportunity. For example, if a friend is upset and texts you, but you\u0026rsquo;re not there because you\u0026rsquo;re off your phone or busy, that\u0026rsquo;s fine. But you\u0026rsquo;re losing the opportunity to be there for her when she\u0026rsquo;s upset. She\u0026rsquo;ll go to other people and stop relying on you. I want to be someone who\u0026rsquo;s reliable and creates trust between people. I feel that\u0026rsquo;s being a good friend.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s about friendship, but it grew on me that I\u0026rsquo;m always a fast replier. It\u0026rsquo;s the same with jobs. Let\u0026rsquo;s say someone wants a website designed. If I\u0026rsquo;m a slow replier, I\u0026rsquo;ll lose the chance and they\u0026rsquo;ll go to someone who replies faster. That\u0026rsquo;s the mentality behind why I\u0026rsquo;m always replying quickly. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to be first in line and fast in action, because there will always be someone above you who is faster. Life is all about competition, and that\u0026rsquo;s my time management. I have a calendar and time-box everything, except maybe Sunday, because I do relax a little more too.\nThere are times when I don\u0026rsquo;t bring my laptop or Apple Watch, so I don\u0026rsquo;t get notifications and use that as a way to chill, just going out. Otherwise, if I\u0026rsquo;m at home, I\u0026rsquo;m on my laptop 24/7. When I\u0026rsquo;m on my laptop, I have three screens. One is work, the other is more work and the third is another bit of work. I\u0026rsquo;m always looking up and down to see what I need to do.\nJames: You manage to accomplish a lot in one day, which is amazing. Going back to speed, I\u0026rsquo;ve heard it described as a feedback loop: observe, orient, decide, act. You observe the situation, work out what you\u0026rsquo;re going to do, decide and act, then get feedback on your decision. The quicker you complete that loop, the quicker you can do things.\nIf something takes a week rather than a few days or one day, it takes longer to get feedback on it. If you finish on Monday instead of Saturday, you can have feedback by midweek. You can see how the loop speeds things up. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting that you assign importance to speed, making decisions quickly and replying quickly. I think it\u0026rsquo;s important for productivity.\nPenny: I find it really easy to start things. If I\u0026rsquo;m going to start a business, I\u0026rsquo;ll start it in the next five minutes. If I want to start a new idea, I\u0026rsquo;ll start straight away. But I find it really hard to end things. When I start something, the next day I have to think about how I\u0026rsquo;m going to end it.\nI break the process down: phase one has to end, then phase two has to end. At work, things can go on and on: \u0026ldquo;This has been going for five months. Why is it not ending?\u0026rdquo; I tend to forget the past because I\u0026rsquo;m a very forward-looking, future person.\nPenny\u0026rsquo;s Time Management Tips # James: If someone is working on a side hustle outside of work, are there any productivity or time-management tips you\u0026rsquo;d give them? In your case, you have side hustles outside work hours. Is there anything that\u0026rsquo;s worked well for you, or any general advice you\u0026rsquo;d give someone in that situation?\nPenny: A lot of it is personality and character. It\u0026rsquo;s something you probably can\u0026rsquo;t teach someone, such as motivation and ambition. Time management is something to practise, but I think a lot comes from the environment you\u0026rsquo;re in. If you\u0026rsquo;re constantly surrounded by people who don\u0026rsquo;t have side hustles, you probably won\u0026rsquo;t have side hustles. If you surround yourself with go-getters who have side hustles, you\u0026rsquo;ll feel like you\u0026rsquo;re behind. People don\u0026rsquo;t realise that until they leave one circle, enter another and feel, \u0026ldquo;Wow, I\u0026rsquo;m the odd one out.\u0026rdquo;\nPeople who already have side hustles probably know what they\u0026rsquo;re doing well. And yes, you will have a mental breakdown. Please reach out to me. I have mental breakdowns, and it\u0026rsquo;s okay. Honestly, I don\u0026rsquo;t really have other tips. Usually, it happens at night. People who have side hustles don\u0026rsquo;t sleep before midnight, so I\u0026rsquo;ll be up and there for you.\nBut also multitask and set your schedule. I always use a Kanban board to move things, and it\u0026rsquo;s so satisfying when you move them across. Some cards will be there for months and months, and that\u0026rsquo;s annoying because you really want to move them. What you can do is break them down into little cards so you can move one every day. Break down a large task instead of having it as a giant umbrella. Even if you can put steps inside the card, make sure each step is a separate card.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a smart way for me to move things because there\u0026rsquo;s satisfaction in moving something to \u0026ldquo;done\u0026rdquo;. It feels so good. I use Notion for to-do lists and the Kanban board. I use Figma a lot for calendars. I have a monthly calendar to see when things should be done for my side hustles, and a weekly calendar so I know what events are on from Monday to Friday. That\u0026rsquo;s more of a social calendar. That\u0026rsquo;s how I function.\nFor people who want to start side hustles but don\u0026rsquo;t know how, that\u0026rsquo;s a hard one. It\u0026rsquo;s about motivation, finding what you want to do and finding whether you\u0026rsquo;re passionate enough to keep up with it. You\u0026rsquo;re going to fail, but the best way to get motivation is to surround yourself with people who are doing the same thing.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s good advice. There\u0026rsquo;s the idea that you\u0026rsquo;re the average of your five best friends, and the importance of surrounding yourself with people you want to be like.\nThe 5 Best Friends Rule # Penny: Is that true about the five best friends? What if you have fewer than five?\nJames: The way I interpret the quote, your closest friend probably has the biggest impact, and the impact decreases as the closeness does. It\u0026rsquo;s almost the sum of all your inputs. Five may just be a good number to pick, but really, I think it\u0026rsquo;s the sum of everything: who your friends and parents are, what you watch on TV, what you use and spend time with, and what outside things enter your environment. All those things together shape your motivation and thoughts.\nThe five best friends is a simple way of visualising or understanding that, but I think it\u0026rsquo;s more than your friends. They\u0026rsquo;re important, but it\u0026rsquo;s the sum of all those things: what you\u0026rsquo;re watching and listening to, and what you\u0026rsquo;re doing with your time. Even that can help.\nI think the idea is quite accurate. If you see someone else doing something, it helps. I\u0026rsquo;m friends with other people doing podcasts, which makes it easier for me to do mine. If I were doing it by myself and didn\u0026rsquo;t know anyone else doing it, it would be much harder. I\u0026rsquo;m sure you also know people who support you and are doing similarly cool stuff.\nPenny: I\u0026rsquo;m slightly different from my best friends.\nJames: Really?\nPenny: I have multiple groups of friends for different purposes, which sounds really bad. If I have, let\u0026rsquo;s say, ten groups of friends, by the time I get back to the first one I\u0026rsquo;ll see them three months later. It\u0026rsquo;s a rotation, which sounds really bad. It was interesting to think about the five best friends, because I\u0026rsquo;m nothing like my five closest friends.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. Maybe it doesn\u0026rsquo;t apply, then.\nPenny: Maybe it has some effect.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s so funny.\nPenny\u0026rsquo;s Thoughts on Becoming a Designer # James: I want to ask about your career as a designer, because that\u0026rsquo;s something you do really well. You\u0026rsquo;re working with a fantastic company, and I want to understand how you got into design. I know you mentor people in this space too. If someone listening is interested in design and wants to become a designer like you, what can they do to enter the field and grow their skills?\nPenny: First, design is such a broad term. You can be an engineering designer, an architectural designer or a fashion designer. My field is called user experience and user interface, which is a long name, or UX/UI. Not everyone knows that acronym. Explaining it to my grandparents is the most difficult thing. It\u0026rsquo;s been around for a while and we use it every day, but the job title is only becoming more widely known now, which is good. I\u0026rsquo;d still say 80% of people don\u0026rsquo;t know what I do.\nExperience design is designing for users to have the best experience. People ask, \u0026ldquo;What do you do? How do you make users have the best experience? How do you know someone will have a good experience?\u0026rdquo; You can\u0026rsquo;t always please everyone, and that\u0026rsquo;s the hardest part of my job. I have to please people and make sure the design is right. Everyone goes through the same thing, but there\u0026rsquo;ll always be a 10% minority who hate your design and think it isn\u0026rsquo;t working. That\u0026rsquo;s totally okay and something you have to accept. Not everyone likes Facebook or Instagram, but you get used to them and their patterns.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s a lot of psychology involved. You have to understand how humans work, what their patterns are, what\u0026rsquo;s already out there, what is successful, and what makes a good or bad product. It\u0026rsquo;s usually digital design. We\u0026rsquo;re moving towards digital experiences, so I design a lot of apps and websites, as well as a lot of Web 3.0 and crypto stuff, which is really fun.\nFor people who want to get into UX/UI, you can have a UX background or a UI background. I came from graphic design. UI is more design and creative style: where things go, the placement of text and buttons, and making things look pretty. But it might not be the best experience. Then there\u0026rsquo;s UX, which is about an amazing flow. Amazon has that addictive yellow button that users keep pressing \u0026ldquo;Buy\u0026rdquo; on. That\u0026rsquo;s terrible UI—a terrible interface that looks like it\u0026rsquo;s from the 1990s—but it works so well. That comes from UX, and then you\u0026rsquo;ve got UI.\nPeople come from many backgrounds because there\u0026rsquo;s no specific degree for it. You can essentially do any degree. That\u0026rsquo;s why I just wanted to graduate, then taught myself UX/UI. I started with UI, designing apps and websites. The more you design and copy existing apps, the more you see the patterns: the size of a button or phone, where the button should go, the terminology people use, and how many screens an onboarding process should have. The more you copy designs, the more you understand, \u0026ldquo;This is how an app works.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the same for websites. Copy a lot of websites and you figure out, \u0026ldquo;The image should be placed here, the title font should be this big and the button should be this big.\u0026rdquo; You start to recognise the patterns. In e-commerce, why is the cart always at the top and why does it stay there? What happens if you put the cart on the side? Maybe it looks good, but e-commerce websites look the same for a reason: people are used to them.\nFor a designer who wants to go beyond the pattern, that can be difficult because everyone is so used to it. That\u0026rsquo;s a challenge in our lives: how do you break the pattern and make people buy differently without leaving them confused or unable to get used to it? It\u0026rsquo;s a really difficult job, but a lot of people see it as easy. If you\u0026rsquo;re good at it and do it often, you can finish the work and design a website really fast. You know your routine and speed. But if you\u0026rsquo;re not good at it, you\u0026rsquo;ll probably take a long time to create a website, think it\u0026rsquo;s ugly, be unhappy with it and do it again.\nPenny: I know I\u0026rsquo;m going off topic about getting into the industry, but I\u0026rsquo;d say to start by copying designs and looking at apps and websites.\nAttributes of Designing that Penny thinks are under-rated # James: What skills involved in being a UX/UI designer do you think are important but underestimated? Is there anything people underappreciate in this field?\nPenny: The creative skill and eye for design are really hard to train. Some people are born with creativity. They\u0026rsquo;re great drawers, they can draw, they know where colours go and they have an eye for design. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to train.\nI used to be able to draw; I can\u0026rsquo;t draw any more. But because I design so much and look at exemplars or websites, I\u0026rsquo;m able to put in my head where things go. For people who haven\u0026rsquo;t done that before, it can be really hard. I think people appreciate that when they realise, \u0026ldquo;I actually can\u0026rsquo;t design this. Wow, it looks so good.\u0026rdquo; At the end of the day, everyone thinks they\u0026rsquo;re a designer. You can design, I can design and everyone can design a website, right?\nWhat people don\u0026rsquo;t realise is the psychology behind it. How do you design something that looks good? The word \u0026ldquo;good\u0026rdquo; is different for everyone. You might think a button looks great, while I think it looks terrible. How do you prove what\u0026rsquo;s defined as good? In the industry, it\u0026rsquo;s no longer about \u0026ldquo;good design\u0026rdquo; but about what\u0026rsquo;s usable and validated by other people—the actual users and customers.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a great proof point. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you\u0026rsquo;re designing an e-commerce website. As a designer, you might think it looks good, while the customer thinks it looks really bad. It\u0026rsquo;s not their fault; it\u0026rsquo;s your fault that the e-commerce website isn\u0026rsquo;t making sales. I don\u0026rsquo;t think people notice that. A lot of people don\u0026rsquo;t hire designers because they feel they can do it themselves. A logo is really easy to do now; you can get it for $10 from Fiverr or Upwork. There are so many freelancer websites marketing website design for $10 or logo design for $5, but you\u0026rsquo;re missing the psychology behind it.\nThere are two types of designers. With the cheap one, you tell them what to do and they do it for you. With the expensive one, you tell them what to do, but they take it with a grain of salt and give you suggestions and advice on how to make it better.\nA lot of people go with the first one: \u0026ldquo;This is what I want. I just need you to make it look pretty.\u0026rdquo; I have many clients asking for logo design who just need me to make it look pretty. But other clients need my suggestions: \u0026ldquo;I know you can make it look pretty, but I want to know how to make sales and get more people visiting my website.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s the thinking behind it that not many people appreciate.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really interesting. If you were interested, you could upskill yourself in the psychology and improve as a designer.\nPenny\u0026rsquo;s Favourite Failure # James: I want to start wrapping up. I\u0026rsquo;ve got two questions left about your career as a whole. First, has there been a particular failure or something that didn\u0026rsquo;t go to plan, but ended up being a valuable experience that you now appreciate and that turned out well?\nPenny: Definitely when I was applying for graduate positions. In final year, many of my friends were applying for internships and graduate positions, and I went through a lot of interviews. Like any other graduate, I did interviews, assessment centres and design challenges. I reached the last round and then didn\u0026rsquo;t get an offer. I got zero offers, while I heard about friends getting five. At that point, I felt so low and thought, \u0026ldquo;Why am I not good enough? Is my degree my fault? What\u0026rsquo;s missing? Is it my mark? Is my degree not aligned with what they\u0026rsquo;re looking for, or is it just other people?\u0026rdquo;\nThat made me doubt my skills. I really wanted to get into UX/UI. I was so determined, but there weren\u0026rsquo;t many UX/UI graduate programs. I had some interviews for UX/UI graduate programs, but didn\u0026rsquo;t get in. I felt, \u0026ldquo;Okay, maybe this is the end of the industry for me.\u0026rdquo;\nI thought I was doing so well. I was designing so many apps and websites in my own time. I had a smashing portfolio, which got me through interviews and into the last round, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t get an offer. I started looking outside graduate programs and got a job as an entry-level UX/UI designer instead of a graduate. I skipped the graduate process and went straight to a normal UX/UI designer role. I don\u0026rsquo;t think they were looking for juniors, either. The job title was UX/UI designer and asked for maybe two to three years of experience.\nI had zero experience because I\u0026rsquo;d just graduated. Luckily, I\u0026rsquo;d practised a lot of UX/UI and made my portfolio look like I had two to three years of experience. I\u0026rsquo;d already practised my eye for design. Even though my degree wasn\u0026rsquo;t in UX/UI and I\u0026rsquo;d never had a UX/UI job, I landed a role at a legal tech firm.\nMy manager explained why he hired me, which was hilarious. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t because I knew what I was doing or was experienced in UX/UI. It was because I didn\u0026rsquo;t know shit. I was bullshitting in the interview, and he thought, \u0026ldquo;She\u0026rsquo;s easy to train.\u0026rdquo; I was open-minded in the interview. I acted like I knew what I was doing, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t, and he found that funny. He hired and trained me because he wanted someone to mentor and train up.\nFor every junior, don\u0026rsquo;t expect to be the best, but go in as your best self and act like you know all this shit. At the end of the day, they can see that you probably don\u0026rsquo;t know stuff. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Okay, that\u0026rsquo;s funny.\u0026rdquo; I grew a lot because I was open-minded and willing to learn. I said, \u0026ldquo;Hit me with whatever you want.\u0026rdquo; I started from ground zero. He trained me from the beginning in how to use Photoshop and Adobe Illustrator.\nI had a mental breakdown; it was the hardest job ever. Usually, I just dropped boxes when making a website. He made me copy websites in Adobe Illustrator. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to learn the hard way to be successful in the future. That was mental. I always mention him. He has my Instagram and is probably listening to this.\nThat was one failure, but it also taught me about salary negotiation. A lot of graduates ask about the low salary. I\u0026rsquo;m thankful I skipped all the graduate programs and entered at a higher salary. I was able to use that as a benchmark, jump to another company and skip some of the junior process. I still consider myself a junior. I\u0026rsquo;m still a junior at my company, so you\u0026rsquo;ll always be a junior to someone. But if you keep thinking of yourself as a junior, you\u0026rsquo;ll always have the mindset that you\u0026rsquo;re not good enough.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great story. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting to hear that you didn\u0026rsquo;t get a graduate offer, and now look where you are. It has almost worked out perfectly.\nPenny\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question, Penny, which I ask all guests. If you were finishing uni and starting your career or first job again this year, what advice would you give yourself?\nPenny: That\u0026rsquo;s a hard one because I love my job and I\u0026rsquo;m doing really well. If I had to go back and start over, I\u0026rsquo;d panic because the competition is much higher. COVID put so many people out of jobs, and there are so many great designers. If I didn\u0026rsquo;t get a job offer, going through applications and graduate programs again would be exhausting.\nI definitely wouldn\u0026rsquo;t apply for a graduate program. I\u0026rsquo;m done with that. I\u0026rsquo;d probably look for something more entry-level. Even though the benchmark is so high, I\u0026rsquo;d probably start a business. If I were starting my career again, I\u0026rsquo;d start a business and stop applying. I\u0026rsquo;d still apply, but I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be upset if I didn\u0026rsquo;t get a job because I\u0026rsquo;d have my own thing too.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. You\u0026rsquo;ve shown there are plenty of opportunities for side hustles and extra things to do if you look for them and are interested in what problems need solving in the world. That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. We\u0026rsquo;re in the period when people are applying for graduate roles that start next year, so it\u0026rsquo;s also very timely.\nPenny: It\u0026rsquo;s stressful for them. I never want to go through it again. Job applications are way more stressful than a break-up. Rejection from an application is more stressful than a guy rejecting you. It hurts. Every day, you check your email and see that you didn\u0026rsquo;t get a job. Your life sucks.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re surrounded by people making money and flashing their suits in Barangaroo. I never got to experience that because I didn\u0026rsquo;t work in Barangaroo. But creating jobs for yourself will help you get a job, and a lot of people don\u0026rsquo;t realise that.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. I\u0026rsquo;d recommend doing side hustles to anyone. If you pay attention to the world\u0026rsquo;s problems and help people solve them, you\u0026rsquo;ll be setting yourself up in the right way.\nPenny: Also, know people. If I went back, I wish I\u0026rsquo;d known more people. Even though I know a lot of people, I want to know more smart, talented people within my circle. You need people like that.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s so important. Thanks so much for the chat today, Penny. It\u0026rsquo;s been really illuminating to hear about your life, all the things you\u0026rsquo;re doing and the amazing advice you\u0026rsquo;ve shared.\nContact Penny # James: If people want to connect with you and find out more about what you do, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place to find you?\nPenny: Literally on Instagram. I don\u0026rsquo;t really use LinkedIn any more because it feels so professional. Someone messages, \u0026ldquo;Hey, Penny,\u0026rdquo; and I reply, \u0026ldquo;Hey, girl!\u0026rdquo; There\u0026rsquo;s already so much stress in the world. Writing emails is formal, then you go on LinkedIn and have to be formal again. LinkedIn is like email.\nObviously, you can use LinkedIn to communicate. But when you get to Instagram, you feel a personal connection and invested in someone\u0026rsquo;s life and what they\u0026rsquo;re trying to do. I want people to come on a journey with me because not many people go through what I do each day. What\u0026rsquo;s the life of a side-hustle workaholic like? There are mental breakdowns. People are involved with my success and failure. The more personal you get—and I\u0026rsquo;m a very open person—the more it becomes a friendship rather than a professional relationship. I don\u0026rsquo;t want, \u0026ldquo;Regards, Penny.\u0026rdquo; I want, \u0026ldquo;Let\u0026rsquo;s catch up, Penny.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s certainly true. We\u0026rsquo;ll have links to your Instagram, website and everything else in the show notes. Thanks so much for chatting today, Penny. It\u0026rsquo;s been fascinating to hear about you and your story. Thanks so much for your time.\nPenny: Thank you for having me.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory with Penny Talalak. She\u0026rsquo;s started so many side hustles and works extremely hard at what she does. It was great to get her insight into the different things she\u0026rsquo;s doing and how she manages them on top of working full time.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can find my takeaways from this episode, as well as every other episode, delivered straight to your inbox every week. Thanks again for listening, and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you next Tuesday.\n← Back to episode 19\n","date":"28 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/19-on-designing-a-successful-side-hustle-with-penny-talalak/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 19\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Designing a Successful Side Hustle with Penny Talalak","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nBack again with episode #18 of Graduate Theory, providing you with lessons and tips so that you can have a successful and fulfilling career.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re not already levelling up your career, subscribe now so you never miss a beat 👇\nSubscribe Now\nWarwick Donaldson is a serial entrepreneur, problem-solver and country man. An active member of the Australian startup community, he has been a part of a number of capital raises and writes about startup funding in Aussie Startup Capital Nerd.\n🤝 Connect with Warwick # https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickdonaldson/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Asymmetric Risks # Life is full of risk. Sometimes we make decisions that could end well or could end badly.\nPutting your money in the stock market is one example of such a situation.\nA *symmetric *risk would be one where the probability of a positive outcome is the same as a negative one.\nAn *asymmetric *risk is one where the probability of a positive outcome is not the same as the negative.\nNetworking and creating connections is an example of *asymmetric *risk.\nLike the worst they can do is say \u0026rsquo;no\u0026rsquo;, The best they can do is say \u0026lsquo;yes\u0026rsquo;. And you ended up getting a job. There\u0026rsquo;s no downside, there\u0026rsquo;s only upsides. It\u0026rsquo;s a pretty good risk to take, If you want to call it a risk at all.\nThis example is so powerful. Reaching out to people and asking for what you want is one of the most powerful asymmetric risks that you can take.\nThere is no downside, no negative, only positive.\nI encourage everyone to reach out to more people and find new connections. As Warwick says,\nthe worst case is I say no, and the best case is up to your imagination\nThe Power of Community | Guanxi # Today\u0026rsquo;s world can be a solitary existence. We want to do things ourselves and prove to others that we can do things on our own. Warwick spoke about a contrasting idea in China called Guanxi.\nGuanxi is, is the concept of relationship and the power of relationship \u0026hellip; You know, you build your relationships, but actually you build your network. You should also be using those relationships and the those networks. And so they say it Guanxi is like, an arm, the more you use it, the more powerful it gets.\nThe key is that using your network is really important. In fact, it could well be our first place to look for answers, rather than looking for them without help.\nWarwick says he is seeing the benefits of this approach in his life already, and it\u0026rsquo;s something that I think we can all do better at.\nChallenge Yourself (Appropriately) # Warwick was stuck in a linear career path. Where he was going to end up in the future was not a place he wanted to go.\nI think I saw my life flash before my eyes. I kind of saw where I was going to be when I was 40 and 50, because you know, the, the progression seems rather linear or I did when I was there. I think that scared the shit out of me. And I was like, oh my God, what happens if I spend the next 30 years at ANZ or in banking? And would I be happy? Would I say that I\u0026rsquo;ve lived a full life?\nTo combat this, he took a big risk. He gave up his career in Australia to become an English teacher at a school in China.\nDespite this risk, Warwick was calculated and knew that even if this didn\u0026rsquo;t work out, he could simply move back to Australia and continue where he left off.\nNow, it\u0026rsquo;s powered his career and given him unique experiences and perspectives that allow him to have a greater impact in his role as a VC.\nGet the Newsletter\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 Warwick Donaldson\n00:00 Warwick Donaldson\n00:35 Intro\n01:09 Warwick\u0026rsquo;s First Job\n05:22 The Power of Asking\n07:53 Warwick working Overseas\n12:28 Warwick\u0026rsquo;s Decision to Move\n15:48 Lessons that Warwick Took from Living in China\n21:00 Using your Network | Guanxi\n28:09 How did Warwick end up in Startups\n35:58 A failure that turned out to be a success\n42:05 Warwick\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n44:58 Contact Warwick\n45:54 Outro\n","date":"21 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/18-on-asymmetric-risks-and-the-power-of-asking-with-warwick-donaldson/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nBack again with episode #18 of Graduate Theory, providing you with lessons and tips so that you can have a successful and fulfilling career.\n","title":"On Asymmetric Risks and the Power of Asking with Warwick Donaldson","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 18\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nWarwick Donaldson # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today\u0026rsquo;s episode, you\u0026rsquo;ll hear about what it means to take an asymmetric risk and certain things you can do in your career that have unlimited upside. We\u0026rsquo;ll talk about networking hacks from Chinese culture, and we\u0026rsquo;ll also talk about what it means to challenge yourself appropriately.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t already, please consider subscribing to the Graduate Theory newsletter. You\u0026rsquo;ll get takeaways and my insights from this episode directly in your inbox every single week. Without further ado, please enjoy.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a serial entrepreneur, problem solver and country man. He\u0026rsquo;s an active member of the Australian startup community, has been part of several capital raises and writes about startup funding on his site, Aussie Startup Capital Nerd. He\u0026rsquo;s passionate about helping young people and growing the Australian startup ecosystem. Please welcome to the show Warwick Donaldson.\nWarwick: Hey, James. Thanks for having me. I\u0026rsquo;m very excited.\nJames: Great, man. I\u0026rsquo;m really excited.\nWarwick\u0026rsquo;s First Job # James: I\u0026rsquo;m excited to chat as well. Before the podcast, we were speaking about your first job and how it came about. I\u0026rsquo;m curious: what was your very first job, and how did you get it?\nWarwick: Well, I\u0026rsquo;ve actually had a few first jobs, so it depends which first job we\u0026rsquo;re talking about. I\u0026rsquo;ll tell all three; all three are kind of fun. My first job was when I was about six years old. I used to get, I think, one or two dollars a week in pocket money from my parents, and it wasn\u0026rsquo;t enough. I always wanted to buy things and my parents wouldn\u0026rsquo;t give me any money, so I devised a way to make some more. My first-ever job—my first-ever business—was collecting sheep poo. I used to walk around picking it up, put it in bags and sell it to people in town, because I grew up on a farm.\nThat was my very first job, although I suppose I created it. My first job working for someone else was on the farm for my dad, when I was about 10 years old. He used to get me doing proper full days because I really wanted to do it, so he paid me reasonably well. He was like, \u0026ldquo;Well, you do a full day\u0026rsquo;s work, then you get paid like a normal person.\u0026rdquo;\nBut for the first job I think you\u0026rsquo;re referring to, maybe I\u0026rsquo;ll tell the backstory. Ever since I was about 14, I was fascinated by finance and really wanted to be in banking. My idea was that banking was the pinnacle of, I think, capitalism and sophistication. I thought I was going to be exposed to the most amazing things in the world there, be challenged and get to see billions of dollars and all this sort of stuff. That absolutely fascinated me, so ever since I was 14 I wanted to go into banking.\nI went to uni and studied banking, finance and accounting. When I graduated, I had pretty average grades. I didn\u0026rsquo;t fail anything—that\u0026rsquo;s probably my claim to fame from my uni degree—but my grades weren\u0026rsquo;t good enough to get into a grad position. I tried and didn\u0026rsquo;t get in anywhere, but I wanted to be in banking. I said, \u0026ldquo;Okay, well, I\u0026rsquo;m just going to get a job in banking doing anything and figure it out once I get there.\u0026rdquo; I got a job in an outbound credit card collections call centre and spent about nine months there.\nWhile I was there, every day I would get on the GAL—the global address list—and research people at ANZ who I thought were working in interesting departments. I\u0026rsquo;d send them emails and say, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;m really interested in what you do. I want to learn more. Do you have time to go and get a coffee?\u0026rdquo; Slowly, I worked my way through credit risk, market risk, the traders and all different parts of ANZ. Everybody said yes. They were really pleased that someone would reach out to ask them questions and learn about them and what they did.\nI did that for about eight or nine months, and each of those people would refer me to someone else they thought was working in an interesting department, based on what I told them I wanted to do. I ended up working my way through ANZ and eventually made my way to ANZ Treasury. For those who are not familiar, Treasury is basically the bank\u0026rsquo;s bank. They\u0026rsquo;re the ones who ensure the bank is funded, dish the funds out to the various business units and manage liquidity.\nI found someone in ANZ Treasury, and he said, \u0026ldquo;Well, we\u0026rsquo;ve never had anyone find us. This is actually really cool. We\u0026rsquo;re hiring a grad role as an analyst. Are you interested?\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Hell yeah,\u0026rdquo; did the interviews and got my first quite real grad job, I suppose, which was an amazing opportunity.\nThe Power of Asking # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I think it\u0026rsquo;s such a good story. It speaks to this idea that, when you reach out, people are almost surprised to have someone contact them. It\u0026rsquo;s such a valuable thing to do for yourself and for them. Reaching out cold like that is a great example of how valuable it can be, because too many of us don\u0026rsquo;t do it. You\u0026rsquo;re worried: what if they say no, or what if this or that happens? But what if they say yes? It\u0026rsquo;s a great example of how it can work out if you persist with that kind of thing.\nWarwick: Well, that\u0026rsquo;s the best bit, right? The worst they can do is say no. The best they can do is say yes, and you end up getting a job. There\u0026rsquo;s no downside and there\u0026rsquo;s only upside, so it\u0026rsquo;s a pretty good risk to take, if you want to call it a risk at all.\nJames: Absolutely. I was reflecting on this idea over the last week: so many people I\u0026rsquo;ve met have this commonality. The opportunity that really changed their life was something they wanted, and they asked for it. Then suddenly they were off doing something incredible. It\u0026rsquo;s really common and underappreciated. People don\u0026rsquo;t do it enough, and perhaps don\u0026rsquo;t even realise what they can achieve just by asking.\nWarwick: Never underestimate someone\u0026rsquo;s willingness to talk about themselves. People love talking about themselves. We gather a lot of experience in our lives, and a lot of people love to share that experience. That\u0026rsquo;s why I\u0026rsquo;m doing this interview, right? That\u0026rsquo;s why I take nearly every cold outreach people make to me. I love sharing my experiences, and hopefully someone can learn from me because I\u0026rsquo;ve done all this stuff. Hopefully I can short-circuit some learning for the next person. That\u0026rsquo;s what it\u0026rsquo;s all about.\nJames: Absolutely. It\u0026rsquo;s so powerful, and having people like yourself who are open to people reaching out is what makes this work. I appreciate it, and I\u0026rsquo;m sure other people who have reached out to you appreciate it as well. I want to move on.\nWarwick working Overseas # James: Now, with your career and move overseas, talk us through that process. What led to you deciding to go over there?\nWarwick: I was working at ANZ and had spent about two years in Treasury, in wholesale funding. We were managing a bond portfolio of a bit over $100 billion, and we were doing $25 billion of new issuance per year. It was absolutely insane, right? I loved the work and the markets and all that sort of stuff, but there was really something missing. I think I saw my life flash before my eyes. I saw where I was going to be when I was 40 and 50 because the progression seemed quite linear, or it did when I was there anyway. I think that scared me. I was like, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, what happens if I spend the next 30 years at ANZ or in banking? Would I be happy? Would I say that I\u0026rsquo;ve lived a full life?\u0026rdquo;\nUp until that point, my life had always been about risk management. I grew up on a farm; farming is about extreme risk management. Then I studied banking, finance and accounting, which is also risk management. I felt that I wasn\u0026rsquo;t really taking risks with my life. Part of that is to do with my privilege, and part of it is to do with the way I grew up, Australia and all that sort of stuff. Australia is a pretty safe place to be, and I wanted to experience more of the world. I didn\u0026rsquo;t take a gap year or anything like that, so I said, \u0026ldquo;Okay, it\u0026rsquo;s time for me to challenge myself—really challenge myself. What\u0026rsquo;s the most extreme thing I can do to challenge myself without taking too much risk?\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;m still a person who likes to manage risk.\nI came up with this idea of moving to China. I\u0026rsquo;d been there twice on holiday, really enjoyed it and felt like it was a second home. But I didn\u0026rsquo;t speak Chinese and didn\u0026rsquo;t know a whole lot about Chinese society. All I knew was that, for some reason, I was drawn to it. I said, \u0026ldquo;Okay, well, it\u0026rsquo;s probably the biggest risk that I could take.\u0026rdquo; I talked to this guy who had moved there a couple of years before. He said, \u0026ldquo;Just do it, man. What\u0026rsquo;s the worst thing that\u0026rsquo;s going to happen?\u0026rdquo; I was like, \u0026ldquo;All right, I don\u0026rsquo;t know about this,\u0026rdquo; and everyone else was saying, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know why you would do that. You literally have one of the best jobs in the world right now.\u0026rdquo;\nSo I did. I quit and got a job teaching English in a primary school in suburban Nanjing. A comparator for Nanjing is probably Geelong, right? It has 10 million people, but it\u0026rsquo;s still like a big country town. I was right on the outskirts, in the suburbs, and went and taught English. That started my journey in China. I ended up spending three years there.\nIt was a crazy time that really challenged me, in really good ways. It helped me understand that there is a completely different world out there. We don\u0026rsquo;t quite understand the parameters that guide us in, say, Australia and the West. We take certain things that exist in Australia for granted as, \u0026ldquo;This is just the way it is,\u0026rdquo; and don\u0026rsquo;t really challenge them. When you go to a place like China, it\u0026rsquo;s built on a completely different set of rules, technology and culture. Suddenly, you realise all these things you thought simply had to exist no longer had to exist.\nFor example, I moved there in 2016 and everybody was on WeChat. Literally every payment was instant. The Chinese banking system was built on a completely different set of rules because that\u0026rsquo;s what society demanded. They skipped the PC age and went straight to the smartphone age. They\u0026rsquo;re basic things that really challenge what we accept here in Australia as normal, or as slow progression.\nWarwick\u0026rsquo;s Decision to Move # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really interesting. Your decision to move is something that interests me because, as you said, you were in what people considered a great job and doing well in the corporate sphere. Then you gave that up to do something people might say wasn\u0026rsquo;t as good a job: teaching in a remote place in China. How did you deal with that? Did you feel social expectations? Did you doubt yourself at any point through that process, or were you simply thinking, \u0026ldquo;This is what I want to do, so I\u0026rsquo;m going straight for it\u0026rdquo;?\nWarwick: It took me six months to make the decision and figure out how to do it with the least amount of risk possible. I doubted myself a lot, but I think the fact that I was doubting myself meant I was probably taking the right level of risk and challenge. If you\u0026rsquo;re not doubting yourself, you\u0026rsquo;re probably not pushing yourself hard enough, right? You\u0026rsquo;re feeling too safe, so you need to fight through it.\nReally, the risk was pretty low. Worst-case scenario, I leave China after six months or a year and go back into banking in Australia. Best-case scenario, I discover, evolve and learn, become this amazing person and have all these experiences that make me a better person. I could get a job teaching English in China; it was really easy. The risk was relatively low, but I did doubt myself a lot. I was quite conscious of the fact that people were judging me. My dad was like, \u0026ldquo;Oh, this is a really good idea.\u0026rdquo; He doesn\u0026rsquo;t know much about China.\nOne reason I was going was that China was in the paper every day and was this massive influence on our society, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t know anything about it. All I knew was how it was portrayed in the papers. Anyone who has ever travelled knows that how a place, culture or country is portrayed on paper is extraordinarily different to how it is in real life. That\u0026rsquo;s why we travel, right? To challenge the perceptions we have and put some substance behind them.\nNow I\u0026rsquo;m this white dude who can speak Chinese, cruising around Australia. I pull it out all the time, speaking to Chinese people, and people say, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, you can speak Chinese.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s really nice. You can bond over it and understand a different culture and society. I really appreciate that, and it has propelled me as a person and in my career.\nLessons that Warwick Took from Living in China # James: You mentioned those cultural differences. Going to a different country lets you see those differences, but I\u0026rsquo;m interested in how you ended up coming back to Australia and what lessons you took back from your experience in China.\nWarwick: I came back twice. The first time, I\u0026rsquo;d spent two years there and wasn\u0026rsquo;t progressing as fast as I wanted to. I was a little frustrated and thought, \u0026ldquo;Oh, I\u0026rsquo;m going to be a teacher forever. This is really annoying. I want to get back into doing some of the work I love in finance.\u0026rdquo; So I came back to Australia.\nI came back not really knowing much Chinese because I\u0026rsquo;d fallen into what perhaps a lot of people do when they move overseas. Unless you really want to challenge yourself, you fall into the crowd that speaks a common language. I ended up spending a lot of time with people who spoke English, both locals and expats. I tried to make it work in Australia and got a couple of really good jobs, but I just wasn\u0026rsquo;t settled. It was really hard coming back because I\u0026rsquo;d had this crazy, phenomenal experience. The way I lived and everything had changed forever, nobody could understand that, and everything was the same here. It was really difficult coming back.\nI got a really good job in venture capital. After about five months, they asked, \u0026ldquo;Are you enjoying yourself? Do you see yourself here for a while?\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;Honestly, no, I don\u0026rsquo;t.\u0026rdquo; They were like, \u0026ldquo;Oh.\u0026rdquo; I couldn\u0026rsquo;t believe I was saying it because I\u0026rsquo;d really wanted to work in venture capital. I was working with startups, I was working in finance and I got to talk to founders all day. It was great; it was amazing. But I wasn\u0026rsquo;t excited about it. All I could think about was China.\nI ended up leaving and going back to China. I said, \u0026ldquo;All right, if I\u0026rsquo;m going back to China, this time I\u0026rsquo;m going to learn Chinese properly. I\u0026rsquo;m going to take the time and put the effort in.\u0026rdquo; I enrolled at university full-time to study Chinese. We had five hours of class five days a week, then probably another four to five hours of homework a day, rote-learning Chinese: literally writing Chinese characters, pronouncing tones, having conversations and reading. It was really intense, and I loved it. I felt I was going back to finish something I\u0026rsquo;d started but hadn\u0026rsquo;t done properly. It was amazing.\nAbout 12 months into studying, I realised how long I would have to study to get my Chinese to a level where I could work in the fields I really enjoy. It was probably another three to four years, and I really wanted to get back into that type of work. It also dawned on me that, once I got my Chinese to that level, I\u0026rsquo;d have to rebuild my career in a different country with different rules. Chinese culture is very old and complex, like any culture in the world. You\u0026rsquo;re not only learning the language; you\u0026rsquo;re learning the culture, and you need to understand that sort of stuff.\nAfter 12 months, I came to the realisation that it was probably a little too long and I\u0026rsquo;d already got a lot out of the experience. It was time to come home. I flew back into Australia two weeks before COVID was officially announced in China. I flew back on 15 December, and 31 December was when it was announced or discovered. There were people with COVID one week later where I had been working, so I could have been patient zero. What an insane thing, right?\nJames: Absolutely. People often talk about Chinese being quite hard to learn—probably one of the hardest languages—and then, on top of that, you\u0026rsquo;re learning the culture and doing all these other things. It certainly sounds like a great experience.\nUsing your Network | Guanxi # James: When you came back to Australia at the end of 2019, did anything stick from your time in China? Sometimes it\u0026rsquo;s certain cooking techniques, ways of getting ready or other cultural things that we do differently in Australia. Is there anything you brought back that you still do today?\nWarwick: A lot. It influenced my life so much, including my choice of breakfast. I like to have noodle soup for breakfast—a hot bowl of noodle soup on a hot day. I like to drink warm and hot water. I picked up a lot of cultural things, as well as things on the networking side.\nIn China, they have something called guanxi. Guanxi is the concept of relationships and the power of relationships. In China it\u0026rsquo;s extremely important, and I think throughout a lot of Asia it basically rules society in a way, as I understand it. You build your relationships and your network, but you should also use those relationships and networks. They say guanxi is like an arm: the more you use it, the more powerful it gets.\nThis is a really important idea that underpins how I conduct myself these days. I grew up in Australia, where we build networks but use them as a last resort. We don\u0026rsquo;t like to draw on our networks too much because we feel a little embarrassed that we\u0026rsquo;re asking for help. In China, it\u0026rsquo;s the complete opposite: you should use your network as one of your first ports of call.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve really picked up on this and have been trying my best to apply it in my daily life. I\u0026rsquo;m seeing the benefits already. I talk a lot with the same people, or try to build a good network of people, and we help each other. I feel that bond and relationship evolve and become more meaningful over time. It\u0026rsquo;s really enjoyable because you\u0026rsquo;re building relationships, which is a basic human thing and really nice, but you\u0026rsquo;re also helping each other. That\u0026rsquo;s nice in a professional sense as well as a personal one.\nJames: Definitely. When you said that we often turn to our network as a last resort, I realised I\u0026rsquo;m guilty of that. Taking it back to what we discussed at the start, you can achieve so much just by asking. You can save yourself a lot of time trying to work something out when asking someone could solve your problem quickly. I absolutely agree. I could do better at not being so worried about reaching out to people, asking for things and asking for help. As you said, it could be beneficial for both parties.\nWarwick: The part of Australia where I grew up is definitely a more individualistic society. We pride ourselves on doing everything ourselves, right? It\u0026rsquo;s like: move out of home as soon as you\u0026rsquo;re 18 and fight for your survival. Not really fight for your survival—it wasn\u0026rsquo;t that bad—but we really drive home this idea of the individual.\nI rejected my family for a long time. Another thing I came back with was the importance of family and friends. Chinese society is very much centred around the family unit, and friends come within that. That\u0026rsquo;s really important. I came back from China drawing in my family, embracing it and really enjoying it, which has been nice and refreshing. I don\u0026rsquo;t think I have to do everything myself just to prove that I\u0026rsquo;m a big, tough person who can make it in Australia by himself.\nJames: Absolutely. That\u0026rsquo;s something we can all do better. Even with the podcast, people will say, \u0026ldquo;You should reach out to this person. They\u0026rsquo;ll be able to help you in this area.\u0026rdquo; Part of me thinks, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s a good idea,\u0026rdquo; but, for some reason, I almost want to do it myself. It\u0026rsquo;s clearly not the best way. I\u0026rsquo;m like, \u0026ldquo;I can do it all myself. I don\u0026rsquo;t need to speak with this person who has a newsletter they can share with heaps of people.\u0026rdquo; The number of opportunities that all of us have—not just me—that are only one ask away, but that you completely ignore because you want to do it yourself, is phenomenal.\nWarwick: It\u0026rsquo;s fun doing things by yourself and making your own mistakes, and that\u0026rsquo;s okay, but make sure you find a balance, especially in seizing opportunities that are really juicy. Also acknowledge that you don\u0026rsquo;t know where an opportunity is going to lead. On the face of it, an opportunity may not look that appealing or juicy, but it may end up leading to, for example, a grad job like I got. That wasn\u0026rsquo;t what I was expecting, but it happened.\nIf I\u0026rsquo;d tried to judge that immediate opportunity from the outset, I would have been completely wrong. Most of the time, I\u0026rsquo;m completely wrong when I try to judge the outcomes of meeting people. People are very complex and are much more than their LinkedIn or Instagram profile. They have amazing networks and knowledge. You can\u0026rsquo;t predict where something will go, what you\u0026rsquo;ll learn or what their background is, and that\u0026rsquo;s the most beautiful thing. It\u0026rsquo;s really daunting, though, because you have to be prepared for anything: to learn anything and be exposed to anything. But that\u0026rsquo;s what makes it so beautiful, especially if you have a love of learning.\nJames: Right. That\u0026rsquo;s very wise and so true. A love of learning is so important. I want to talk about your experience in the startup world now.\nHow did Warwick end up in Startups # James: You worked in VC for a little while between your trips to China, and you\u0026rsquo;re really involved in startups today. How did you stumble into that area? Continuing the theme of life lessons, what has being in this space taught you?\nWarwick: As I said before, I started my first business when I was six and have had a few businesses since. I started my first startup when I was 21, I think, just after coming out of uni. I was working at ANZ in Treasury and had an idea for a fitness marketplace. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Whatever, let\u0026rsquo;s try to build it and see what happens.\u0026rdquo; I convinced my dad to give me a little money, which he never saw again. He still teases me about it today and asks when I\u0026rsquo;m going to repay that. I had better get onto that, actually. It\u0026rsquo;s a good reminder.\nI started the fitness marketplace and went through the whole process of finding developers. After a year, it was built. I had grand plans for it to be the biggest and best thing from day one. I launched it, and nothing—crickets. I had no idea what I was doing. After a couple of months, I realised I was going to have to pound the pavement, talk to people and do all this other stuff.\nI actually didn\u0026rsquo;t care about a fitness marketplace. I\u0026rsquo;m sorry; I did not and do not care about fitness or marketplaces. It\u0026rsquo;s just not me, right? I started it thinking I\u0026rsquo;d found this niche and, because I\u0026rsquo;m a businessperson, I could execute anything. I thought it was irrelevant whether I cared about it, which is just not true for me. I ended up shutting it down because I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to do the work. That\u0026rsquo;s the funny realisation that came out of it.\nAbout a year later, I started another startup called Godber\u0026amp;Warwick. It was a custom men\u0026rsquo;s shoe business where you could design your own shoes in 3D. It was modelled after Shoes of Prey, which I saw some people at work using, and I thought, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, this is amazing.\u0026rdquo; At the time, I was playing around with custom-designed shoes, going to Vietnam on holiday and getting them made. It was really fun, so I had to do it.\nI spent about three years building this custom-shoe business. When I was in China, I was still working on it and met my really good friend Godber Olav Godbersen. We joined up, and he\u0026rsquo;s a designer, so we had a lot of fun building the tech. Then we found a custom-shoe factory in China. We used to go there on weekends and play around with designs, and they thought we were absolutely crazy. We tried to get them to make the craziest designs. We found they had a laser in the factory, so we started getting leather and lasering things onto it. We got friends who were tattoo artists to tattoo leather. We were doing all sorts of crazy stuff and dyeing shoes hot pink. It was so much fun.\nI tried that for about three years and it didn\u0026rsquo;t really come off. By that point, I knew I loved change, innovation and startups. I went into the space and decided to work for anyone in startups because I wanted to learn. That started my startup career as an employee.\nNow I work at Tractor Ventures, and it\u0026rsquo;s an amazing place to work. I meet founders all day, every day, and see all these innovations. We\u0026rsquo;re also a startup ourselves. We\u0026rsquo;re actually a fintech; the name Tractor Ventures is a bit deceptive. We deal with startups that are innovating themselves, so it\u0026rsquo;s the perfect job because it\u0026rsquo;s also finance. Before that, I worked in finance at a medical-device startup, and before that I worked in growth at an agtech SaaS startup called Mobble.\nWhile I was in China, I did a lot of community work, building the expat community, and then started doing startup-community work through Startup Grind. I came back to Australia, continued with Startup Grind and really enjoyed community building. I don\u0026rsquo;t know what it is about it, but I get excited when I see two people meet for the first time and start sharing stories. They discuss the problems they\u0026rsquo;re trying to solve, and one person says, \u0026ldquo;I did that six months ago. Don\u0026rsquo;t do this, this and this; go and do this, this and this.\u0026rdquo; Suddenly, six months\u0026rsquo; worth of learning has been shortcut over to the other person, and they don\u0026rsquo;t have to spend six months making mistakes.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s something really beautiful about that. All you have to do is create an environment for these learnings to be shared, and you\u0026rsquo;ve hopefully saved someone six months of trying to figure out some stupid problem. There\u0026rsquo;s something really electrifying about that and about seeing relationships being built.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve been doing community work on the side ever since. These days, it has morphed into finance-community work through my website, Aussie Startup Capital Nerd. I publish investors and lenders for startups there. It has been great for me to learn about the early-stage capital-markets industry. But I thought, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s one thing to have an investor list; it\u0026rsquo;s another to know what to do with it or how to raise the money.\u0026rdquo;\nSo I started doing analysis and writing reports for founders on capital-raising metrics: what\u0026rsquo;s the median seed raise in Australia? How long is it between rounds? How much capital should I be raising? Should it be enough for 12, 18 or 24 months? I\u0026rsquo;m still doing that today. I find myself at Tractor, then writing articles on weekends and doing a little community work here and there. I\u0026rsquo;ve forgotten what the question was.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s all right. It\u0026rsquo;s really cool how you\u0026rsquo;ve managed to cover so many different areas across the VC and startup ecosystem in Australia. As you said, you\u0026rsquo;re contributing to startup funding, doing community events and helping founders with all this kind of stuff. It\u0026rsquo;s really great to see.\nWarwick: It all comes back to seeing a problem that\u0026rsquo;s not being solved, or information that\u0026rsquo;s not being shared, and thinking, \u0026ldquo;Okay, I might as well do this and see what happens.\u0026rdquo; If it doesn\u0026rsquo;t work, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t work. Everyone has a pretty short attention span these days; they\u0026rsquo;ll forget.\nJames: True. That\u0026rsquo;s such a good idea. I want to ask you about failure.\nA failure that turned out to be a success # James: You touched on the custom-shoe business not quite working out. I\u0026rsquo;m sure you\u0026rsquo;ve seen many startups begin by saying, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re going to be amazing,\u0026rdquo; and then things don\u0026rsquo;t work out so well. Has there been a failure in your life that turned out to be beneficial—a failure that became a success in some way?\nWarwick: Good question. First, it\u0026rsquo;s important to define what I think a failure is. I think failure is when you try something but don\u0026rsquo;t learn from it. I\u0026rsquo;ve only realised this after working in experimental environments like startups. Startups, by definition, are experiments. Only after being in an environment that encourages failure have I been able to embrace and enjoy it.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re trying something or experimenting and it doesn\u0026rsquo;t go the way you hoped, but you learn from it, then it\u0026rsquo;s not a failure. If you didn\u0026rsquo;t learn anything, then it is a failure and you\u0026rsquo;ve wasted some time. That\u0026rsquo;s how I define failure. With that in mind, all these things I\u0026rsquo;ve done in my life have been successes because I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt a whole heap of things. They\u0026rsquo;ve contributed to my career, where I am today, who I am as a person and where I\u0026rsquo;ll go in the future.\nHowever, there are some failures I\u0026rsquo;ve had, as I define them. I was reflecting last night and digging really deep to discover my favourite failure—you heard it here first. My favourite failure is not actively listening. It\u0026rsquo;s painful to say, but I\u0026rsquo;ve been quite guilty of not actively listening in the past. I don\u0026rsquo;t think I\u0026rsquo;m very good at it, and I\u0026rsquo;ve been learning how to do it better.\nThe result is that some really valuable information has been shared with me that I haven\u0026rsquo;t retained. I\u0026rsquo;ve subsequently done things that I should have known wouldn\u0026rsquo;t work out. I\u0026rsquo;ve wasted time and failed an experiment, as such. By not actively listening, I\u0026rsquo;ve also failed to have deeper conversations and uncover more opportunities that could benefit both me and the other person in that conversation or situation. For me, not actively listening is my greatest failure.\nJames: Deep indeed. It\u0026rsquo;s a tricky thing to solve. Listening, and active listening in particular, can seem from the outside like something that\u0026rsquo;s quite hard to improve on or really work at. Is there anything you now try to do to combat that listening process?\nWarwick: I try to slow down. I like to move fast, think fast, break things and all that sort of stuff, and I love change. It means I\u0026rsquo;m primed to be a poor listener. I try to make eye contact more often. I try to wait in a conversation, not interject and not get too excited. I\u0026rsquo;ve also learnt techniques to avoid annoying people when making assertions in conversations.\nOne of my bosses once got a little angry at me because I was making assertions. He said, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you know that, Warwick. It may be based on your experience, but it may not be true for the whole world. You\u0026rsquo;re asserting that it is.\u0026rdquo; He said a better way to make an assertion is to say, \u0026ldquo;In my experience, this is\u0026hellip;\u0026rdquo;\nRather than saying something is true for the whole world, I\u0026rsquo;m saying, \u0026ldquo;Based on everything I\u0026rsquo;ve done to date, this is what I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt and what I think the answer is.\u0026rdquo; You come across as far less overconfident and more like you\u0026rsquo;re sharing something. It\u0026rsquo;s a shared-learning approach, which is also part of relationship building. That has helped me reduce confrontation in conversations, allowed people to open up more and allowed us to go deeper.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great technique: say what you\u0026rsquo;re thinking and open up space for discussion, rather than simply saying what you think and leaving it there.\nWarwick: I\u0026rsquo;m an extrovert, so I have to be mindful that not everybody is. Everybody has important information and experiences, and you need to give them the space to share them.\nWarwick\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: We\u0026rsquo;re coming close to the end of this interview, Warwick. Time has absolutely flown, but I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question that I ask all the guests: what advice would you give someone starting their career in 2022?\nWarwick: Build your network. It may seem hard and daunting at the start—and it is—but it\u0026rsquo;s a marathon, not a race. There are plenty of beautiful, amazing people out there who want to talk to you and share their experiences with you. Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to ask them. The worst they can say is no. Literally, that\u0026rsquo;s the worst they can say. The best they can say is, \u0026ldquo;Hell yeah, let\u0026rsquo;s go and have a coffee,\u0026rdquo; and then who knows what will happen? It\u0026rsquo;s an asymmetric risk, and it\u0026rsquo;s an amazing thing. You really should be doing that.\nI understand that not everyone is an extrovert, so it\u0026rsquo;s more difficult for some than it is for others, but try to fight it or find ways that work for you. Maybe it\u0026rsquo;s online; maybe it\u0026rsquo;s pinging someone and asking questions. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t always have to be face-to-face. Face-to-face is great for building relationships, but there are other ways. There\u0026rsquo;s always another way to solve a problem, so try to innovate, do some reading and figure it out.\nThose networks and relationships are what will hold you strong throughout your career and your life. They\u0026rsquo;re something your job doesn\u0026rsquo;t own. When you leave, you take them with you. They become some of your capital that you can use to improve your life, improve your performance in your role and simply have a nicer life. It\u0026rsquo;s really good.\nI encourage everyone to go out and build their network, and set yourself some goals. Say, \u0026ldquo;Each week, I\u0026rsquo;m going to meet one or two new people in a certain area.\u0026rdquo; If you want to learn about a new industry, job or topic, set yourself a goal: \u0026ldquo;I want to meet one person every week for the next eight weeks.\u0026rdquo; Go and reach out to people and do it.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s great advice and something everyone can do that can be really beneficial. I think you have something on your LinkedIn like, \u0026ldquo;Worst case, I won\u0026rsquo;t reply; best case is up to your imagination.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a great way of putting it.\nWarwick: I put that on my LinkedIn. If you\u0026rsquo;re thinking of reaching out to me, the worst case is that I won\u0026rsquo;t reply, and the best case is up to your imagination.\nContact Warwick # Warwick: Congratulations.\nJames: Thanks so much for the chat today, Warwick. I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt so much about you, and we\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about so many lessons that I think are really great for young people. If people want to find out more about you and connect with you, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place for them to do that?\nWarwick: Jump on my LinkedIn. I\u0026rsquo;m pretty active there. I know some of you may be rolling your eyes, but it\u0026rsquo;s where I\u0026rsquo;m active. Have a look through it. I do a lot of posts there, and they\u0026rsquo;ll give you a flavour of what I\u0026rsquo;m interested in and whether I might be helpful for you. Read through my profile and make a decision from there.\nJames: Fantastic. Thanks so much for chatting with me today, Warwick.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for listening to this episode with Warwick Donaldson. I hope you got something out of it; I certainly did. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t already, please consider subscribing to the Graduate Theory newsletter. You\u0026rsquo;ll get the episode and my takeaways straight in your inbox every single week. Thanks so much for listening today, and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 18\n","date":"21 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/18-on-asymmetric-risks-and-the-power-of-asking-with-warwick-donaldson/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 18\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Asymmetric Risks and the Power of Asking with Warwick Donaldson","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #17 of Graduate Theory, providing you with lessons and tips so that you can have a successful and fulfilling career.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re not already levelling up your career, subscribe now so you never miss a beat 👇\nSubscribe Now\nThis week\u0026rsquo;s guest is Aaron Ngan. Aaron is an experienced entrepreneur, public speaking coach, and career skills expert. He is the CEO of Junior Achievement Australia, helping people across the country succeed in employment and entrepreneurship.\nIn this week\u0026rsquo;s episode, we focus on taking action and converting ideas and plans into things we can do TODAY.\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Smallest Actionable Step # A big part of this episode was talking about the smallest actionable step. Often when we look at our goals or plans, we can get overwhelmed by a big list of things to do. It can seem hard to make progress. What Aaron suggested was to break your problems down into the smallest actionable step.\nSo find that smallest actionable step. And then once you can find that and like ideally smallest, actionable step, just to give it some tangibility, you\u0026rsquo;re talking like five minutes to an hour, max. If it takes longer than that, then it\u0026rsquo;s not a small actionable step.\nThe journey is made up of small steps, we can\u0026rsquo;t know what the journey is going to look like until we get started!\nWhat You Get is What You Deserve # Are you ready to do that thing? To start that business? To go for that job?\nNothing gets accomplished unless you take action. And the results that you get from the action that you take are exactly precisely what you\u0026rsquo;re ready for. But we try to go in our head to find out, am I ready? Am I not? Take the action. You will find out.\nYou will only find out once you take action. Once you attempt something you will get feedback that lets you know if you are ready or not. Apply for a job and get rejected? You are not ready.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to keep taking action and keep getting this feedback so that you can see where you are and are pushing the limits with what you can achieve.\nShow Your Work # Aaron\u0026rsquo;s number one piece of advice.\nThe number one piece of advice I would give is share what you\u0026rsquo;re up to share it with your family, share it with your friends, share it with your network. Just tell people, Hey, this is what I want to be doing.\nYou never know what opportunities can arise just by telling people what you\u0026rsquo;re up to. Like Aaron said in the episode, don\u0026rsquo;t just reply to \u0026ldquo;how are you\u0026rdquo; with \u0026ldquo;good thanks\u0026rdquo;. Actually telling people what you did might surprise you just how receptive and helpful people are.\nGet the Newsletter\n🤝 Connect with Aaron # Message Aaron on LinkedIn and tell him we sent you\nhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronngan/\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 Aaron Ngan 00:51 Intro 01:25 What does Taking Action mean to Aaron? 10:03 Researching vs Using information 14:07 You will never feel ready! 16:50 Aaron\u0026rsquo;s experience with uncertainty when taking action 25:13 Going from 0 to 1 30:28 Mental tools for going from 0 to 1 35:51 Advice for someone having trouble taking action 39:38 Aaron Helps Talk about James\u0026rsquo; eBook 54:32 How Taking Action Relates to Careers 59:33 Aaron\u0026rsquo;s Career Advice for New Graduates 01:05:05 Connect with Aaron 01:06:02 Outro\n","date":"14 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/17-on-the-importance-of-taking-action-with-aaron-ngan/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Hello Graduates!\nWelcome to episode #17 of Graduate Theory, providing you with lessons and tips so that you can have a successful and fulfilling career.\n","title":"On the Importance of Taking Action with Aaron Ngan","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 17\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is all about taking action. How do we go from an idea or a thought into something tangible and into actions that we can actually do?\nIn today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we dive into a framework for converting these possibilities that seem so far off into tangible things that you can take action on today. During this episode, my guest coaches me through one of my own problems at the moment.\nI think this will be a really great resource for you, so you can analyse some of your problems and the things that you\u0026rsquo;re putting off with this same framework that we discuss today. This was a really impactful episode for me, and I hope you enjoy.\nIntro # James: Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is an experienced entrepreneur, public speaking coach and career skills expert. He\u0026rsquo;s the CEO of Junior Achievement Australia, helping people across the country succeed in employment and entrepreneurship. Please welcome to the show Aaron Ngan.\nAaron: Hello. Thank you, James. It\u0026rsquo;s an absolute pleasure to be here. I\u0026rsquo;m excited to be on this podcast and share whatever I can. I\u0026rsquo;m in your hands. Let\u0026rsquo;s go.\nJames: Perfect, man. Today I\u0026rsquo;d love to chat about so many things.\nWhat does Taking Action mean to Aaron? # James: There are a lot of things that you do which are closely related to careers and many of the themes around this podcast. But one thing I want to speak about first is this idea of taking action. Something we spoke about before you came on today was making that decision not to just sit on the sidelines, but to get in the arena and start doing something, making something or selling something, whatever that might be.\nI\u0026rsquo;m curious: what has that process looked like for you in your life? Are there any other times like that where you really had to dive in and make something happen?\nAaron: Absolutely. In the big picture, that idea of staying in the stands or getting into the arena is incredibly critical. All the times I\u0026rsquo;ve been held back, felt stuck or felt like I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do—I don\u0026rsquo;t know what action I should take or what I should try—these are common themes when I speak with lots of young people at university, just out of university or even early in their careers. What\u0026rsquo;s the right thing?\nEspecially when the world\u0026rsquo;s gone nuts, what do I do? In every one of those moments of being stuck, both for myself and people I speak to, I\u0026rsquo;ve noticed that what\u0026rsquo;s right there is being in the stands, being the observer. What that really looks like is: I need to do all the research.\nLet me get all the research done. Let me find out all the options. Maybe let\u0026rsquo;s chat to a bunch of people and find out what the best thing is. Can I do this? What if I create a plan? We should create a plan. That\u0026rsquo;s what we need to do now. Let\u0026rsquo;s create a plan. Oh, wait, what are all the different circumstances? What could go wrong?\nAll of this comes up, and there\u0026rsquo;s nothing wrong with planning or doing research. But every time I\u0026rsquo;ve become stuck, I\u0026rsquo;m in this world of not taking any action. This is where I have a big challenge as well. When I\u0026rsquo;m out there seeing different content, workshops and things for people to learn—students just like your listeners, who are committed to taking their careers to the next level—one of the things I see missing most is: what are the actions to take? What are the actions today? People can have all the theory, background and research, and understand why something works. That is incredibly fascinating and often really helpful. But none of it has any impact unless someone takes action. This matters particularly for students and listeners who are committed to taking their careers to the next level: they need to know what they can actually do today, not only why the idea works.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the core idea I\u0026rsquo;m super excited to share with people. I do public speaking coaching; that\u0026rsquo;s one of the main things I focus on. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen so many articles, TED Talks and YouTube videos all about the theory: this is how you stand; these are different ways to modulate your voice; you should pause to let things sink in for effect. That\u0026rsquo;s all really nice, right? What I used to do—and this is mirrored by almost everyone I speak to—was think, \u0026ldquo;Oh, wow, that\u0026rsquo;s really nice.\u0026rdquo;\nI would save the YouTube video and put it in a playlist of all my educational YouTube videos so I could refer back to it later. Then I just wouldn\u0026rsquo;t look at it. Maybe two, three or four years later, I\u0026rsquo;d look back at that playlist and think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s nice. Maybe I\u0026rsquo;ll do something about it.\u0026rdquo; If I\u0026rsquo;m honest, I realised I actually hadn\u0026rsquo;t done anything.\nI hadn\u0026rsquo;t taken any action. Even though I\u0026rsquo;m someone who now has a decent amount of muscle and practice in taking action, I\u0026rsquo;ll still give you some examples. It\u0026rsquo;s not like I\u0026rsquo;m immune to it, or that you ever become immune to it. The thoughts still come up whenever you\u0026rsquo;re about to put something into the world: how\u0026rsquo;s this going to work?\nCan I do this? Will people listen? Will people sign up? James, you\u0026rsquo;ve created your own podcast, Graduate Theory. There would have been a period between when you thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do this,\u0026rdquo; and when you actually started it, because there was a point where you were 100 per cent going to do it.\nFor me, that was 2017. I got one or two people together and thought, \u0026ldquo;I need to create my own public speaking coaching program.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d been doing it unofficially at various events. I\u0026rsquo;d had people in competitions and workshops that I\u0026rsquo;d run, and I\u0026rsquo;d give them that coaching and they\u0026rsquo;d get great results.\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;I just need to put this into my own course.\u0026rdquo; It was 2017, and I didn\u0026rsquo;t actually do anything about it. I didn\u0026rsquo;t get any customers or put anything out. I maybe did one free workshop, which, if I\u0026rsquo;m honest, was just part of another program I was doing, so I didn\u0026rsquo;t create anything extra or new to test it.\nI just said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, come to this.\u0026rdquo; It wasn\u0026rsquo;t my own program, and it didn\u0026rsquo;t give me a real test of whether people would choose what I had created. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t until 2020, when everything was in lockdown and no in-person meetings were happening, that I thought, \u0026ldquo;You know what? Now\u0026rsquo;s the time.\u0026rdquo; Why? Because there is no other time. I could wait another three years and still be asking the same questions. I decided, \u0026ldquo;Okay, I\u0026rsquo;m going to put together the first course. Who am I going to get?\u0026rdquo;\nI was running two workshops back-to-back, on Wednesday and Thursday, for Real Skills Education. They do entrepreneurial training for engineers in universities, and they had me come in to run two public speaking workshops. I thought, \u0026ldquo;At the end, I\u0026rsquo;m just going to pitch it.\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to see who shows up. I\u0026rsquo;m going to run the first one as a pilot program: three weekends over six weeks, with a fortnight between each. Let\u0026rsquo;s just do it.\u0026rdquo; We had 12 people sign up and say, \u0026ldquo;Yeah, I want to do this.\u0026rdquo; I thought, \u0026ldquo;Wow. Okay, that\u0026rsquo;s cool. Now I actually have to make this.\u0026rdquo;\nTaking the action, setting the dates and offering it was the biggest thing, because I didn\u0026rsquo;t know whether it was going to flop. Then I discovered, \u0026ldquo;Hold on, now this is pulling me into action.\u0026rdquo; The action was pulling me into action because I now had these people who had committed to taking themselves on, expanding their public speaking skills. I had to write this in a way that would make a difference for them and give them the experience of walking out authentically able to speak confidently and effectively on any topic in front of any audience.\nWhen I wrote down the promise of the course, I asked, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s the promise of this course?\u0026rdquo; That was it: you will be able to confidently and effectively present on any topic in front of any audience. They walked out able to do that, and I thought, \u0026ldquo;Okay, now I\u0026rsquo;ve got something.\u0026rdquo;\nFrom that course, people brought friends along and shared it with their friends. I had two more people. \u0026ldquo;Crap, now I\u0026rsquo;ve got two more customers. I need to fill the rest of the second course.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;m so glad I didn\u0026rsquo;t waste another three years. I decided, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just going to do this.\u0026rdquo;\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s the action to take? That\u0026rsquo;s the overall theme. When you take action, you discover a lot. In those two weeks, I learnt more than I had in those whole two or three years about putting together the course and its structure. Suddenly the practical questions were real rather than hypothetical. What should the sessions contain? How do I get a payment structure in place?\nHow do I find out what they want to accomplish? I wasted a lot of time trying to figure out a website just so I could get a sales page up at the end of the course.\nAaron: But I learnt more in that two-to-six-week period than I did in three years of just saying, \u0026ldquo;I really want to do this.\u0026rdquo;\nI knew I had the skills for it. Logically and theoretically, I knew, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t have any proof or evidence. By taking the actual step, I discovered that this is something I can do. The first takeaway is that theory, information and all the research you might do aren\u0026rsquo;t bad. In fact, they\u0026rsquo;re often really helpful. But once you take action, you get to know for yourself that this is something you can do. A whole bunch of other learning and benefits come with that.\nSo I guess that\u0026rsquo;s the key theme to start off with.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. There are so many things we can go into from there, but I want to finish what you said about information.\nResearching vs Using information # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve found this even for myself. I used to read a lot of books; that was almost my thing, trying to read as many books as I could in a year.\nSince starting a podcast and actually doing something with that information, you realise: I\u0026rsquo;ve read books on marketing, but now I have to market the thing, the podcast. I probably didn\u0026rsquo;t retain much of what I read. Reading it again now, with the idea that you will actually implement the advice, makes it much more effective. I feel like you can get into an endless state of reading and researching so much that it almost leads you not to do the thing or use the information.\nOnce I actually had to use it, I found I\u0026rsquo;d prefer to start doing something and then use the information to power that, rather than making the information its own thing. If I read a marketing book now, the whole time I\u0026rsquo;m asking, \u0026ldquo;How am I going to use this?\u0026rdquo;\nIf I don\u0026rsquo;t have something to use it for, it\u0026rsquo;s just, \u0026ldquo;Nice book, cool concepts about marketing, tick: read.\u0026rdquo; From the perspective of being able to learn, having something in which to implement what you\u0026rsquo;re learning makes you learn much more.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s before even considering the actual doing of the thing, which is also really cool.\nAaron: I really want to emphasise that I don\u0026rsquo;t think information or learning is bad. On the contrary, information and conceptual or theoretical learning are critical in so many areas of how we live in the world.\nYou don\u0026rsquo;t become a theoretical physicist calculating how we get to the Moon or Mars, or how we deal with some of these really complex challenges, without an incredibly strong foundation in the underlying theories and academic ideas.\nThose are critical. However, for most people starting their careers and making the transition from primary and high school education systems into adult learning, experience and taking action in the everyday aspects of our lives, we\u0026rsquo;ve largely got it the wrong way around.\nMany people, especially recent or soon-to-be graduates, think, \u0026ldquo;I need to do all the research first so that I\u0026rsquo;ll be ready.\u0026rdquo; Invariably, we do the research, ask people, look up websites and jump on YouTube.\nWe find all these different things. Some of it is confusing because some people say the same thing while others say different things. You can keep moving from one source to another, trying to decide which one is right, without ever creating the experience that would make the advice meaningful. With my résumé reviews, people often tell me, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve never heard anyone explain, describe or put it into action the way you have.\u0026rdquo;\nThat blows my mind. But what you said is perfect, because the moment you start taking action, you start experimenting, trying things and discovering. You have a situation in front of you and a reason to distinguish what is useful. Then you go back to those same resources, and the actions you take pull all that value from them.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re actually doing a podcast and have to do the marketing. Now you\u0026rsquo;re going to read this book and immediately get 20 or 30 new ideas because you\u0026rsquo;re taking action in a way that lets you discover part of that world. The more we can combine those things and give people space to do so, the more powerful it is. That\u0026rsquo;s where growth, discovery and development all start.\nYou will never feel ready # James: I liked what you said about waiting to be ready and thinking you haven\u0026rsquo;t learnt enough.\nAaron: It\u0026rsquo;s not going to happen. You\u0026rsquo;ll never be ready.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really important to recognise. Whatever it might be, if you dive in, you\u0026rsquo;re going to learn so much.\nOnce you\u0026rsquo;re actually doing it, the things you have to learn become clear, and you\u0026rsquo;re under pressure to learn. I think that brings out much more good than sitting on the sidelines, researching and learning.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not inherently bad, but if you really want to maximise what you get out of these things, it\u0026rsquo;s worth being involved.\nAaron: Taking the view that \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m never going to be ready\u0026rdquo; is incredibly empowering for some people: given I\u0026rsquo;m never going to be ready, why don\u0026rsquo;t I just go for it? For others, it could put you in a bit of a bind. I would assert that if \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re never going to be ready\u0026rdquo; puts you in a bind, that\u0026rsquo;s all part of still wanting to be ready. Another way to look at it in the world of taking action is that, once you act, you discover you are exactly as ready as you are, because you took that action and achieved whatever result you achieved. You were exactly ready.\nYou were perfectly ready to achieve that result. The difference is that now you\u0026rsquo;ve taken the action and achieved a result—even if no one signed up, nothing happened or it flopped—you have evidence. It\u0026rsquo;s outside your head and in the world. You can say, \u0026ldquo;Okay, awesome.\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;I took the action and it worked out great,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;This is how many people signed up.\u0026rdquo; For me, 12 people were there. That was a free trial program, so I was pretty much off the hook, to be honest. But then, when I offered it for the first time after that free program, they could invite their friends.\nThree or four people came along, and two of them paid and registered. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Okay, cool. That\u0026rsquo;s now the new result measure.\u0026rdquo; I was ready for that. How do I know? Because I did it. Notice that nothing gets accomplished unless you take action.\nThe results you get from the action you take are precisely what you\u0026rsquo;re ready for. But we try to go into our heads to find out: am I ready? Am I not? Take the action. You will find out.\nAaron\u0026rsquo;s experience with uncertainty when taking action # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. We\u0026rsquo;re talking about the gap between thinking you\u0026rsquo;re not ready and then doing it. Have there been times when you\u0026rsquo;ve had that delay—when you\u0026rsquo;ve wanted to do something but had that doubt?\nI think it\u0026rsquo;s fairly common, but I\u0026rsquo;m curious to hear about your experience with it.\nAaron: The biggest and most present example is the one I mentioned before. In 2017, I distinctly remember thinking, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do my own public speaking course. I\u0026rsquo;ve got the experience.\u0026rdquo; Everyone I coached one-on-one would do a pitch or presentation.\nI\u0026rsquo;d give them coaching, and they\u0026rsquo;d go from nervous to, \u0026ldquo;Okay, cool. I can actually express myself naturally.\u0026rdquo; Not that fake, \u0026ldquo;Today we\u0026rsquo;re going to talk about\u0026hellip;\u0026rdquo; style of presenting you get taught at school, but actual, natural self-expression and exuberance.\nI was accomplishing that with people, just not in my own course or program. I had evidence that the coaching worked in competitions, workshops and one-on-one conversations, but I still hadn\u0026rsquo;t turned it into an offer of my own. I delayed it for two to three years, until the end of 2020. Looking back, a lot of that hesitation was: how do I structure the course? I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether I\u0026rsquo;ll structure it well. What do I put in? How will I find people to attend? How do I promote it? I wasn\u0026rsquo;t actually dealing with any of those questions. Dealing with them would itself be a form of action: writing down everything I\u0026rsquo;m uncertain about.\nGet clear that I am certain about something: I\u0026rsquo;m certain about everything I\u0026rsquo;m uncertain about. I\u0026rsquo;m certain that I don\u0026rsquo;t know a bunch of stuff. Then look at what it will take to resolve that. I didn\u0026rsquo;t do any of it.\nAaron: This is powerful, because it\u0026rsquo;s not that I didn\u0026rsquo;t know to do it. I\u0026rsquo;d done productivity courses and seen YouTube clips about how to live a productive life. I knew all of that. That theoretical knowledge has been available and readily accessible for ages.\nI knew lack of information wasn\u0026rsquo;t the key. I simply didn\u0026rsquo;t take action. That distinction matters: I could have watched another productivity video and felt as though I was addressing the problem, even though the knowledge was already there. One of the things that ultimately led to action was something we discussed before we started. In 2020, I had worked in coaching, supporting and empowering young people to develop their careers, entrepreneurial skills and financial literacy.\nI was well versed in this space, having spent more than five years doing it officially and more than 10 years doing it informally. I thought, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re in a global pandemic. What\u0026rsquo;s something I can do?\u0026rdquo; People were struggling with careers and jobs amid so much uncertainty.\nI decided to put a free résumé review on LinkedIn and do it over Zoom. Anyone could take part. I thought I\u0026rsquo;d get a handful of people from the Sydney area, but about 20 per cent came from one university in the United States. I looked it up: it\u0026rsquo;s a worldwide top-20 or top-30 university.\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;I didn\u0026rsquo;t know you existed.\u0026rdquo; It got into one of the communities there, and people started sharing it with all their friends. That was far beyond the handful of Sydney participants I had imagined. Even though I knew the idea would work, I still hesitated for a good month. I noticed myself saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll write the post tomorrow, or next week. I need to figure out a scheduling system first so I can book people in. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to go back and forth on LinkedIn with people over messages.\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;I just want to give them a link so they can book. What do I do? What if I record them? Should I create a template that I can give them at the end?\u0026rdquo; I noticed myself getting caught up in all this stuff, which was simply delaying action.\nFinally, I decided, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to put it out there.\u0026rdquo; I didn\u0026rsquo;t have the scheduling link ready. That turned out to be really good, because instead of posting on LinkedIn and saying, \u0026ldquo;Click this link,\u0026rdquo; I told them, \u0026ldquo;Comment below, \u0026lsquo;Me, please. I want a résumé review.\u0026rsquo;\u0026rdquo;\nThe unintended effect was that, as they commented, their friends and more people saw it. It became viral on a small scale: my first post had about 6,000 to 7,000 views within the first four days, with more than 50 interactions, including likes and comments. Within the first three or four hours, people started commenting and I had to act quickly. All that umming and ahhing about the right thing became pretty simple.\nI was on a deadline. I went and created the link. There was Calendly, Acuity Scheduling and a bunch of other options. I picked one that integrated well with my calendar and Zoom.\nI made about 10 to 20 tweaks to that first post and the system, but ultimately it was all done in motion, in action. I did not need to predict all those tweaks before publishing; the responses showed me what needed to change. By the end, I had done about 200 to 250 reviews over a couple of months and built up a bunch of networks.\nI built up an incredibly diverse awareness of different careers and skills. Nowadays, people come to me and ask, \u0026ldquo;Do people pay you to do this?\u0026rdquo; Absolutely. I now offer it as a paid service. Instead of doing only the 30-minute Zoom call and letting you take action yourself, we\u0026rsquo;ll still do that, because I can do it incredibly fast now. Then I\u0026rsquo;ll take it away, find all the details, pull them out and send you a couple of drafts. You\u0026rsquo;ll send it back, and I\u0026rsquo;ll review it as many times as you need within a 14-day period. People now pay me a couple of hundred dollars to do that. That\u0026rsquo;s not bad: it takes me one or two hours, perhaps half an hour of initial face-to-face work and another hour and a half doing it. It\u0026rsquo;s something I really enjoy, and it brings in some side cash. An old friend runs a business targeting young people that was building a résumé-builder website. They said, \u0026ldquo;I saw those posts. That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. Can you record a series of short videos? We\u0026rsquo;ll pay you.\u0026rdquo;\nI ended up getting a couple of thousand dollars to make a few short videos. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Wow, now I get to create content as well. That\u0026rsquo;s cool,\u0026rdquo; because that\u0026rsquo;s something else I\u0026rsquo;d been putting off.\nAaron: There\u0026rsquo;s no shortage of things I put off, but I\u0026rsquo;ve also started to recognise that nothing happens without taking action. Sometimes it\u0026rsquo;s just a case of asking, \u0026ldquo;What action am I going to take today?\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really amazing. There are so many things I want to explore from that.\nGoing from 0 to 1 # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard start-up people say zero to one is the hardest part. From one to 10, you\u0026rsquo;re still building, working things out and refining; then from 10 to 100, it\u0026rsquo;s about scale.\nYou can often be put off at the start, when you have to go from nothing at all to having something. With that LinkedIn post, you had nothing.\nYou had to make the post and think of all this stuff, and that was almost the biggest step. Once you had the post, it became about refining it: making edits and working out the calendar. Once you have something, it\u0026rsquo;s easier to change, refine and perfect it.\nOnce you have something working well, you ask, \u0026ldquo;How do we turn up the volume?\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s the scale side of things. It is a different problem from creating the first version and learning whether anybody wants it. That\u0026rsquo;s what you\u0026rsquo;ve done: you\u0026rsquo;ve turned it from something free into a paid service, with people coming to you.\nI\u0026rsquo;m curious to hear your thoughts on that zero-to-one stage. Have you found that starting is often the hardest part, and that once you\u0026rsquo;re in motion things become more straightforward?\nAaron: Absolutely. There are a couple of zero-to-one moments in that. When you\u0026rsquo;ve created something and put it out there, that\u0026rsquo;s one version: there was nothing, and now people know about it. The next step is, \u0026ldquo;Who\u0026rsquo;s my first customer?\u0026rdquo; In the case of my résumé reviews, the first 200 were all free customers. Then the next zero-to-one moment was, \u0026ldquo;Who\u0026rsquo;s my first paying customer?\u0026rdquo; There are different steps in the whole thing.\nThe moment you start to break it down, you get some space. You can focus on the zero-to-one question that matches the level you\u0026rsquo;re actually at, rather than carrying every later question at once. It would be inappropriate for me to start trying to work out how to get from here to making $200,000 a year or $10,000 a month, because that\u0026rsquo;s not appropriate to the level I\u0026rsquo;m at. For each of those zero-to-one moments, there\u0026rsquo;s the psychological difficulty and the actual difficulty. In my case, I\u0026rsquo;ve been sufficiently active on LinkedIn to have 8,000 or 9,000 connections, the majority of whom I\u0026rsquo;ve personally met at various points over the last couple of years. I\u0026rsquo;ve done a lot in this space, so that awareness is already built up. It\u0026rsquo;s banked. When I put out something like a résumé review, people already think, \u0026ldquo;That makes sense,\u0026rdquo; because I\u0026rsquo;d built that brand. I already had a bunch of things in place: awareness, relationships and a history of working in that space. So the actual difficulty of reaching people was not the same as it would be for somebody starting with no network. But there was still that psychological block: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll do it tomorrow. I\u0026rsquo;ll get around to it.\u0026rdquo; I knew it was going to work, but to take that first step, I had to confront the question: \u0026ldquo;What do I actually need to do?\u0026rdquo;\nI realised the only thing I needed to do first was put up the post. I didn\u0026rsquo;t need any scheduling. The time to sort that out was when I had the first expression of interest, because then I\u0026rsquo;d have someone to send it to. If I waited, I would only delay the time people had to find out about it.\nI understood: \u0026ldquo;I can do the post now and everything else later.\u0026rdquo; When someone came to pay for it and asked, \u0026ldquo;Do you offer this?\u0026rdquo; I said yes. Then I had to work out what I was going to charge and what the package would involve. If I\u0026rsquo;d spent all that time earlier, I probably would have come up with something, but the chance of it being the right fit would have been close to pure chance. It would have been guided by what I thought, rather than what I\u0026rsquo;d learnt and experienced.\nIn that situation, I had someone saying, \u0026ldquo;We want this actual thing. We want a résumé.\u0026rdquo; I could ask, \u0026ldquo;What specifically are you after? What sort of job are you going for? What\u0026rsquo;s your background and experience?\u0026rdquo; I got that information by speaking with an actual potential paying customer.\nI discovered what they actually needed from them, instead of trying to work it out in my head. Their job target, background and experience shaped what the package needed to contain. Left to my own devices, none of it would have been worked out—or, if it had, it would have been unreliable because it was my guess rather than something I\u0026rsquo;d learnt from actual people. I might have built a detailed offer, but whether it fitted the person in front of me would have been largely a matter of chance.\nMental tools for going from 0 to 1 # James: That\u0026rsquo;s a good point. When taking that leap from zero to one, what tools or mental strategies do you use? Is there anything you turn to in those situations, perhaps a mental trigger that makes you snap out of it and think, \u0026ldquo;Wait, hold up. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to do this now\u0026rdquo;? Is there a process people can go through?\nAaron: These are going to sound incredibly simple. Whenever there\u0026rsquo;s a feeling of being stuck—and I also use this when coaching people in personal productivity, careers or very early-stage entrepreneurship—the number one thing is to start by writing a list: what do I not know?\nWhat do I need to know? List it all, along with the actions. That\u0026rsquo;s step zero. It makes the uncertainty visible instead of leaving it as one large feeling of being stuck. Step one is to list the actions I need to take to start. For any action that seems particularly confusing or uncertain, you can break it down further until it becomes something concrete.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s say the step is, \u0026ldquo;I need to create a website.\u0026rdquo; For many people, including me, even though I\u0026rsquo;ve now put out a bunch of different things, the response is, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know how to do that.\u0026rdquo; If building a website is step four for me, I ask, \u0026ldquo;How do I do that?\u0026rdquo; The next step is to get clarity: what are the different steps I need to take? One of the most helpful things I heard from someone—I forget who, unfortunately; there\u0026rsquo;s probably a book on it—is to find the smallest actionable step that takes you closer to where you want to go.\nTo make \u0026ldquo;smallest actionable step\u0026rdquo; tangible, it should take between five minutes and an hour at most. If it takes longer, it isn\u0026rsquo;t the smallest actionable step. It might be, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to list the three things I need to find out.\u0026rdquo; Then you can take that step and find out. You do not have to map the entire route in advance. Often you can identify the first step or two, but without taking them, you won\u0026rsquo;t even know the right questions to ask to reach that zero-to-one point. The information created by those first actions will shape the steps that follow.\nAaron: Find the smallest thing you can do, schedule a time to do it, and then do it.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s useful. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you haven\u0026rsquo;t started something, and you\u0026rsquo;re looking at step 10 and thinking, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to be hard. What am I going to do when that happens?\u0026rdquo;\nIt becomes tricky because you don\u0026rsquo;t even know what things will look like at that point. Going back to your LinkedIn example, creating the post was step one and creating the calendar was step two.\nIf you just do step one, which is literally making a post on LinkedIn, that\u0026rsquo;s quite easy. Thinking about how you\u0026rsquo;re going to charge money isn\u0026rsquo;t appropriate at that stage. Sometimes you can become overwhelmed by thinking about it and looping on the issue.\nPerhaps you think about it so much that it becomes a reason not to do the first step.\nAaron: Another thing you can do is work out: \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s a bunch of things I could do, and I\u0026rsquo;m going to keep thinking about them if left to my own devices.\u0026rdquo; Look at when it would be appropriate to do them.\nWill it be based on time—\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll look at that in two months\u0026rdquo;—or circumstances—\u0026ldquo;When I\u0026rsquo;ve done 100 of these résumé reviews, I\u0026rsquo;ll start looking at how I can monetise them or offer a paid service to people who want that\u0026rdquo;?\nYou can schedule it for that time and only look at it then. I might jot the ideas down, get them out of my head and onto paper or a digital backlog or task list. But I can say, \u0026ldquo;This is the task list I\u0026rsquo;ll only address once I reach 100 free customers.\u0026rdquo;\nOnce I\u0026rsquo;ve reached 100 paying customers, there might be new things to do, including asking, \u0026ldquo;Now that I\u0026rsquo;m here, what do I actually want to do?\u0026rdquo; What you thought you\u0026rsquo;d do and what you want when you reach that stage might overlap, but chances are you\u0026rsquo;ll have discovered a whole new world in the process, with a bunch of even cooler things to consider.\nAdvice for someone having trouble taking action # James: What would your advice be to someone who\u0026rsquo;s on the fence? They have an idea they want to pursue and want to start doing something, but they\u0026rsquo;re deciding whether they should.\nWhat would your advice be in that situation?\nAaron: I\u0026rsquo;ll give the generic advice, but I\u0026rsquo;d also love to ask about something in your life that you\u0026rsquo;ve been hesitating about, so we can make this practical and tangible for listeners and work through it.\nTo people listening: look at the thing you\u0026rsquo;re umming and ahhing about. If you take this in as theory or a concept, it won\u0026rsquo;t make a difference. It will just be nice: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll review that later. Maybe I\u0026rsquo;ll bookmark this podcast and come back when I finally want to do it.\u0026rdquo; We all have things we\u0026rsquo;re hesitating about. At least I don\u0026rsquo;t wake up and get out of bed automatically decisive, knowing exactly what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do each day. For most people, that takes an incredible amount of discipline, training and development.\nMost people, especially those who are young, early in their careers or still at university, aren\u0026rsquo;t automatically like that. We do have these hesitations. Find out what\u0026rsquo;s stopping you. Write down a list: \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s stopping me? What are my uncertainties?\u0026rdquo; Write them all out. Will I have enough time? Will I be good enough? Will people listen? What if it doesn\u0026rsquo;t work? What if I embarrass myself? Those are common ones, but everyone will have their own flavour.\nThe second thing, which is powerful in start-up methodology, is to recognise that you aren\u0026rsquo;t looking for \u0026ldquo;the answer\u0026rdquo;. There\u0026rsquo;s no such thing. The moment you decide there\u0026rsquo;s only one answer—this can be done, and this is how it should be done—you close off everything else that might be possible if you kept asking, \u0026ldquo;What else could I do?\u0026rdquo; My initial advice is to ask: what small, easy experiments could I run? A simple experiment might be, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking about launching free résumé reviews. Type \u0026lsquo;yes\u0026rsquo; in the comments if you\u0026rsquo;re interested.\u0026rdquo; Looking back, I could have put up a LinkedIn poll.\nAaron: Just \u0026ldquo;yes\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;no\u0026rdquo;. Then I\u0026rsquo;d also know who said yes, so I could contact them. In hindsight, that\u0026rsquo;s what I would have done. It would have been much easier than writing a post that ended up so long I had to trim it to LinkedIn\u0026rsquo;s maximum character limit.\nI had to trim it a couple of times. A poll would have been much simpler and led with that initial proof of concept. Instead, I spent all that time umming and ahhing. The key questions are: what\u0026rsquo;s the smallest experiment I could do, and how would I know it succeeded?\nAaron Helps Talk about James\u0026rsquo; eBook # Aaron: And what\u0026rsquo;s one really simple, easy action I can take to make that experiment go live? What\u0026rsquo;s something you\u0026rsquo;ve been humming and hawing about?\nJames: One thing I\u0026rsquo;m considering is that, at the end of every episode of this podcast, I ask guests what advice they\u0026rsquo;d give themselves if they were starting their careers again at the start of this year. They\u0026rsquo;ll offer advice for a new graduate—fairly general tips that could help someone.\nI\u0026rsquo;m thinking about taking those answers and putting them into a resource that someone could use, perhaps an e-book. It would be a good way to compile the advice and get much of the good stuff without having to listen to hours of podcasts.\nBut what\u0026rsquo;s the best way to do that? How do I even do it?\nAaron: I get it. How many guests have you had on your podcast?\nJames: This episode will be episode 17, so I\u0026rsquo;ll probably be at 20 within the next couple of weeks.\nAaron: Great. You\u0026rsquo;ll have 20 guests. What\u0026rsquo;s an experiment you could run to find out? We skipped the step about what you\u0026rsquo;re uncertain about, but we can go through that. In fact, you said it automatically: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve never done this before.\u0026rdquo;\nWhat else was there?\nJames: I don\u0026rsquo;t know how to do it. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure whether people would download it or whether it would be a wash, because making something like that is a fair time investment, especially if it\u0026rsquo;s going to be good.\nAaron: A lot of effort. Will people download it? Will people know they\u0026rsquo;re going to get it?\nAaron: What other concerns or uncertainties do you have?\nJames: What would be the best way to share it with people? Should I make people pay for it, or should it be free? How do I design the book and make it look good? What\u0026rsquo;s the best way to convert someone\u0026rsquo;s podcast answer into a text format that\u0026rsquo;s nice to look at and well illustrated? Should I do it myself or get someone else to help?\nAaron: How do I take out all the ums and ahs, or the moments when someone starts a new sentence in the middle of an idea because they\u0026rsquo;ve just had a new idea, then goes back to the old one? How do I edit and illustrate it? How do I make it visually appealing?\nJames: Should people pay for it? Should it be free? If it\u0026rsquo;s free, what if they don\u0026rsquo;t value it? There are probably more. You could probably come up with more.\nAaron: Look at all those different things. Now you\u0026rsquo;ve acknowledged them, said them aloud and recorded them.\nWhen you review this podcast later, you can write them all down. What do you notice now that you\u0026rsquo;ve said them aloud and communicated them? What\u0026rsquo;s present now?\nJames: The things holding me back become clearer, rather than an invisible target. It becomes something you can investigate. For example, the illustrations—\nAaron: Hold on for a second. Can I give you some quick coaching? When you say it has become less of an invisible target, has it actually, or hasn\u0026rsquo;t it? \u0026ldquo;I think\u0026rdquo; is something we often say: \u0026ldquo;I think it\u0026rsquo;s going to work.\u0026rdquo;\nWe say that so we don\u0026rsquo;t have to be on the hook for \u0026ldquo;It will work,\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;It won\u0026rsquo;t,\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s like saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to try to do it.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s what we say when we don\u0026rsquo;t want to be on the hook for actually doing it: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll try.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m definitely very guilty of that.\nAaron: You\u0026rsquo;ve acknowledged all those different things. How does it occur to you now? What\u0026rsquo;s it actually like for you in terms of that invisible target? What\u0026rsquo;s now available? Take out \u0026ldquo;I think\u0026rdquo;, because everything else you said was perfect.\nJames: What I have to do is much clearer. The things I\u0026rsquo;d have to go through to finish it are now outlined more clearly. It\u0026rsquo;s no longer an idea or massive thing that\u0026rsquo;s almost a bit scary.\nWe\u0026rsquo;ve outlined it. I can see the things I have to do and recognise that they\u0026rsquo;re possible to overcome.\nAaron: You were going to talk about the illustrations, which are a perfect example. If you have no idea how to make it look good, what actions could you take to find out or, potentially even better, outsource it so you don\u0026rsquo;t have to worry about it?\nJames: I would start by seeing whether there are similar books or resources and looking at how they\u0026rsquo;ve approached the design. Then I could decide whether it\u0026rsquo;s a Word-document-style thing I can provide, or whether I need fancy illustrations, cartoons and all this extra material.\nIn the latter case, perhaps I\u0026rsquo;d go to Upwork, Fiverr or a similar website, see what the price range would be and decide whether it\u0026rsquo;s worth it, or whether I should learn and have a crack myself.\nAaron: Perfect. You now have a couple of openings for action. Search for something like \u0026ldquo;quote compilation e-book\u0026rdquo; and see what you find.\nAaron: Perfect. This is a great example of how questions shape your answers.\nOne of your uncertainties was, \u0026ldquo;Should it be free or paid?\u0026rdquo; The larger question is, \u0026ldquo;How much should I charge?\u0026rdquo; In the world of whether it should be paid or free, free is easy: zero. But paid raises other questions: should it be $5, $4, $4.95, $10 or $100? What\u0026rsquo;s appropriate? Now you have a whole other kettle of fish. Notice that the question shapes the value of the information you\u0026rsquo;ll get, because beyond paid or free, there\u0026rsquo;s a third option.\nThere are probably more options. Do I let people pay what they want? Do I give it free to subscribers? Do I give it to people who provide their email address, so they can become part of the community? You stop looking purely at payment and start asking, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s the value to people?\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting way to look at it. \u0026ldquo;What will it be worth to someone?\u0026rdquo; is probably better than thinking only from my side about what I want to get out of it. How much value will it offer someone?\nAaron: Starting from where you are is fine and valid, because then you know it will align with what\u0026rsquo;s important to you. But it\u0026rsquo;s equally critical to consider the people who will read it and whom this product or resource will affect.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s critical to understand what\u0026rsquo;s important to them, what they want and what will make a difference. You have all those snippets recorded. If they\u0026rsquo;re in the final five minutes of every podcast, and you\u0026rsquo;ll have 20 podcasts in a couple of weeks, you could spend 20 times five minutes—don\u0026rsquo;t ask me to do maths on a podcast—listening through them. Ask: what are the different categories and pieces of advice? What\u0026rsquo;s the same and what\u0026rsquo;s different? You might find five or six distinct categories of advice.\nSome people might overlap across categories. Then ask: who would benefit from this? Whom would it affect? In effect, you\u0026rsquo;d be taking action, because you have the bare bones and raw materials in the podcast.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s one of the most powerful value propositions of a podcast: you can accumulate and correlate incredible ideas. You can say this resource was essentially co-authored with these people—you have to ask permission, but most will say yes—and include their names. You can ask, \u0026ldquo;Do you want to share this with your communities? Let\u0026rsquo;s spread the word and make more people aware of ideas that will make a difference.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good idea. I didn\u0026rsquo;t even think of that.\nAaron: Now you\u0026rsquo;ve seen it in action. I want to thank you, because it takes courage to do this live on your own podcast and be the person interacting. I really acknowledge you, James. We took this from a theoretical concept because you asked me the question.\nI was happy to answer it, but it came to life for you. Because this is a real-life example, not a hypothetical one, it will come to life for our listeners as well through the actual doing of it.\nI asked what you were worried and uncertain about, and you listed those things. We didn\u0026rsquo;t physically write them down, but they\u0026rsquo;re embedded in this podcast, so you can look back.\nYou found that space. It\u0026rsquo;s no longer a vague, vapid, elusive, invisible task; it\u0026rsquo;s a collection of smaller things. We looked specifically at illustrating the resource: what are some things I can do? We also explored payments and what they might look like. Now you\u0026rsquo;ve seen it in action. What one or two actions will you take today? Make them as small as appropriate given the time you have, because you\u0026rsquo;re busy.\nWhat one or two actions will you take—not could take, because \u0026ldquo;could\u0026rdquo; is one of those \u0026ldquo;try\u0026rdquo; phrases—today?\nJames: Today I can look for other books. That would be a good place to start: see what structure and style they\u0026rsquo;re using and what they\u0026rsquo;re like. That would be informative about the things I\u0026rsquo;d want to do.\nAaron: You can do that, but are you going to do it? What\u0026rsquo;s the action you\u0026rsquo;re actually going to take?\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m going to do it today. I\u0026rsquo;ll Google early-career-related e-books and look at their structure.\nAaron: Perfect. You could also Google \u0026ldquo;podcast quote compilation e-book\u0026rdquo;. Your action could literally be typing four or five searches into Google. Now you have a clear first place to start, and you don\u0026rsquo;t know what\u0026rsquo;s there.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the experimental nature: you\u0026rsquo;ll get what you get by taking that action. You\u0026rsquo;ve told everyone on the podcast, so by the time this episode is out, you will have done it, because you\u0026rsquo;re doing it today. That\u0026rsquo;s it in practice.\nJames: I really like this. What you mentioned earlier—getting it down to the smallest actionable step—is useful. When you have a whole list of vague things, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to imagine how you\u0026rsquo;d overcome some of those problems. But breaking it down to, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s the next step I can take?\u0026rdquo; gives you something achievable that you know how to do. The whole thing is the sum of those little steps. Starting there will eventually get you to the end. That\u0026rsquo;s really good, and it\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;ll endeavour to apply more to the things I\u0026rsquo;m doing.\nAaron: Don\u0026rsquo;t \u0026ldquo;endeavour to apply it more\u0026rdquo;. Just say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to apply it.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: Okay. I\u0026rsquo;m going to apply it.\nHow Taking Action Relates to Careers # James: That\u0026rsquo;s spot on. I\u0026rsquo;d love to take the ideas about action we\u0026rsquo;ve discussed and relate them to careers and some common threads in the podcast. Much of this material about taking action can be applied similarly.\nIt might not be starting a project. It could be, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t like where I\u0026rsquo;m working. I\u0026rsquo;m going to look for another job.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s a similar process: what\u0026rsquo;s the next step? Maybe it\u0026rsquo;s fixing up my résumé or asking you to look at it. Then I can find other companies where I\u0026rsquo;d want to work and connect with some of them. To take one career example, many of these things are quite simple.\nAaron: Something that isn\u0026rsquo;t often discussed is that all those actions assume, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to leave the company or position.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;ll throw out another question: what would it take to resolve the thing I\u0026rsquo;m unhappy about? If I don\u0026rsquo;t like my job, I could start by exploring what specifically I don\u0026rsquo;t like. Is it a person, a situation, or a way or system of doing business? What\u0026rsquo;s the actual thing? As with the hesitation we looked at before, the uncertainty is often vague.\n\u0026ldquo;I feel uncomfortable; therefore, it sucks.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;m not disagreeing that it probably does suck. For many people, not having a sense of happiness or fulfilment at work is a major cause of stress.\nLook at what\u0026rsquo;s actually there. What or whom am I upset about? Then apply the same ideas: what are some things I could do? If I don\u0026rsquo;t know what to do, what could I find out about how to resolve the situation?\nThis is particularly relevant if you enjoy some things about the business. Most people don\u0026rsquo;t join a company without at least one or two things they enjoy about it. It might be what the company does or aims to accomplish, or the type of work. You can ask, \u0026ldquo;I joined this company for a reason. Should I up and go?\u0026rdquo; Maybe that\u0026rsquo;s one option; I\u0026rsquo;m not discounting it. But what would it look like not merely to tolerate this?\nThere can be a progression from \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to suck a bit, but I\u0026rsquo;ll tolerate it\u0026rdquo; to \u0026ldquo;This is almost unbearable. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to get up, do the résumé and make a move.\u0026rdquo; For most people, as dissatisfaction with work increases, productivity and output tend to decrease.\nIf you let that continue too long, it can affect your future career. If someone calls for a reference and you haven\u0026rsquo;t been doing what you need to do, that can cause a downward spiral. People often frame the solution as, \u0026ldquo;Let\u0026rsquo;s get a new job.\u0026rdquo;\nI\u0026rsquo;m always happy to talk about that; in fact, that\u0026rsquo;s what most people discuss with me. But ask: why am I unhappy or dissatisfied? What is it actually about? What could I explore? What are the options? What could I find out about resolving it? Whom could I speak to?\nWhom can I share this with? What could get done? In many situations, chances are someone doesn\u0026rsquo;t know you\u0026rsquo;re upset or unhappy. If you communicate authentically and openly, it might still result in you leaving, but now you have an opportunity to shape your environment towards what you want and what will make a difference for you. That\u0026rsquo;s something I recommend.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really good advice. Naming the things you\u0026rsquo;re struggling with and working out exactly what they are is critical. Whether you\u0026rsquo;re taking action or something isn\u0026rsquo;t going well, making those problems visible and facing them directly is really important.\nAaron: Yes, it\u0026rsquo;s super powerful.\nAaron\u0026rsquo;s Career Advice for New Graduates # James: I like this a lot. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken for a while and can probably wrap up, but I want to ask one more question—the one I ask all guests.\nIf you were starting your career again today, what would you do? You\u0026rsquo;ve worked in public speaking coaching, entrepreneurship leadership and workshop facilitation, and you see many young people move from school to university to work. What advice or key principles would you give people making the transition into their first full-time role?\nAaron: The number one piece of advice I\u0026rsquo;d give is to share what you\u0026rsquo;re up to. Share it with your family, friends and network. Tell people, \u0026ldquo;This is what I want to do. This is the type of work and what excites me about it.\u0026rdquo; Share that with as many people as possible, and things will happen. People will ask, \u0026ldquo;Have you heard about this job or volunteering opportunity? Have you thought about joining this hackathon? Have you seen this?\u0026rdquo; People on the same journey might say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m also doing this. Let\u0026rsquo;s catch up, connect and collaborate.\u0026rdquo; You might learn from or contribute to them. When sharing what you\u0026rsquo;re doing and setting out to accomplish early in your career, you could say, \u0026ldquo;I really want to be an amazing product manager or systems engineer. I really want to be an amazing junior HR manager.\u0026rdquo; You can start to understand what excites you. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be a huge aspirational thing like, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m joining Tesla to create the next powered smart-home battery motorcycle,\u0026rdquo; or whatever it is.\nIt doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be something incredible that\u0026rsquo;s going to Mars. In your early-stage career, you could say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m committed to discovering the world of finance so I can make a difference to everyday people who use Company X\u0026rsquo;s services.\u0026rdquo; As you share and explore that, two things will happen. You\u0026rsquo;ll deepen your awareness of what you actually want to do.\nThe more conversations you have and the more you explain it to people who say, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. Tell me about that,\u0026rdquo; the deeper and more real it becomes for you. Your environment also starts to recognise, \u0026ldquo;James is the person who does that podcast.\u0026rdquo;\nIf someone approaches me, of course I\u0026rsquo;m going to recommend him. It makes sense, because sharing what you\u0026rsquo;re up to is the number one thing that influences your environment. It could be a post or a conversation: \u0026ldquo;What have you been doing? What have you been up to?\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;How\u0026rsquo;s it going?\u0026rdquo; in Australia is the equivalent of saying, \u0026ldquo;Hello, but please don\u0026rsquo;t tell me how you\u0026rsquo;re actually feeling or what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\u0026rdquo; The standard response is, \u0026ldquo;Nothing much. How about you?\u0026rdquo; But when you\u0026rsquo;re asked what you\u0026rsquo;ve been up to, you can actually talk about it.\nYou can say, \u0026ldquo;I recorded a podcast this week. The guest flipped it on me and started asking me questions, which was pretty cool. From that, I\u0026rsquo;m going to think about how I can create more value for people, because I\u0026rsquo;m committed to ensuring Graduate Theory\u0026rsquo;s listeners and the community we\u0026rsquo;re building have the best possible resources, preparation, support and guidance to take action and move their careers to the next step.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve been doing this weekend.\u0026rdquo; I just made that up for you as an example. Someone will say, \u0026ldquo;Tell me about that,\u0026rdquo; and then it builds. Share what you\u0026rsquo;re up to and what you\u0026rsquo;re about.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. We can all do better at sharing what we\u0026rsquo;re up to and developing our networks. Thanks so much for coming on today.\nIt was personally so valuable for me. Thanks for your questions and for helping me with that. There are many great takeaways for listeners, whether around the smallest possible action or the idea of sharing with your network. It\u0026rsquo;s really great advice.\nConnect with Aaron # James: If people want to get in touch with you and find out more about what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place for them to go?\nAaron: The best place to connect with me is on LinkedIn. Type my name, Aaron Ngan, into LinkedIn and you\u0026rsquo;ll find me, or go to linkedin.com/in/aaronngan—just one name, no dashes. Mention that you came from the Graduate Theory podcast. I\u0026rsquo;d love to connect with you and support you with anything to do with your career, entrepreneurship skills, public speaking or being able to express yourself powerfully.\nAll of it. Please connect.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;ll leave that for everybody in the show notes below. Thanks so much again for coming on today, and we\u0026rsquo;ll be in touch.\nAaron: James. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. And I look forward to chatting with you more in the future.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for listening to Graduate Theory. To find out more, please go to GraduateTheory.com. If you want to hear more from me in your inbox every week, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You\u0026rsquo;ll receive weekly emails containing my takeaways from each episode. I look forward to seeing you there, and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you next week.\n← Back to episode 17\n","date":"14 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/17-on-the-importance-of-taking-action-with-aaron-ngan/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 17\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On The Importance of Taking Action with Aaron Ngan","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Michael Gill is a titan of the law industry in Australia. Since graduating from university in 1970, he has accomplished so much.\nMichael has worked at DLA Piper in Sydney for over 50 years, taking roles as Chairman, Managing Partner and Consultant\nHe has been the president of the law society of NSW, the president of the Law Council of Australia and established the Australian Insurance Law Association.\nMichael is also a life member of the law society of NSW.\nLevel Up Your Career\n🤝 Connect with Michael # Get in touch with Gilly via his email: Michael.gill at outlook.com.au\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Work is Life # During the interview, Gilly spoke about how when work becomes something you aren\u0026rsquo;t just doing to pass the time, it is really powerful.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s time we really sat down and actually thought about our work, not just as something that we have to get out of the way so we can get back to enjoying ourselves, but something that is actually enjoyable in itself.\nConquer Imposter Syndrome with Help # We spoke to Gilly about imposter syndrome. He was named a partner at his law firm after only 1 year, it\u0026rsquo;s likely that he would have felt entirely out of his depth! He said that what helped him was that he never felt alone. He always had people to call on to support him. This is something we can all do in times of doubt, call on those to help you through.\nIn the Zone # One really interesting insight I had from this chat with Gilly was his ritual before meetings. He would close his eyes and take himself to a place of calm before the meeting, and then conduct the meeting from his best self. This is a great practice that we can all adopt to be more present through the work day.\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 #16 Michael Gill\n01:17 Intro\n02:32 Gilly\u0026rsquo;s Experience at University\n08:17 What are the articles of clerkship?\n12:57 The Start of Gilly\u0026rsquo;s Career\n17:06 Difference Between a Solicitor and a Barrister\n18:53 Gilly\u0026rsquo;s First Job in Law\n25:34 What is work?\n32:03 Gilly\u0026rsquo;s Favourite Lawyers\n36:29 When Money isn\u0026rsquo;t fulfilling you\n44:50 When Gilly Found Himself\n51:45 Gilly\u0026rsquo;s experience overseas\n58:52 Is Gilly Driven or Relaxed\n01:07:42 How Gilly Dealt with Imposter Syndrome\n01:15:52 Gilly\u0026rsquo;s Rituals and Practices\n01:25:30 The most interesting case that Gilly has worked on\n01:32:33 Gilly\u0026rsquo;s Advice for New Graduates\n01:41:47 How To Contact Gilly\n01:42:37 Outro\n","date":"7 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/16-on-building-a-long-term-and-sustainable-career-with-michael-gill/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Michael Gill is a titan of the law industry in Australia. Since graduating from university in 1970, he has accomplished so much.\n","title":"On Building a Long-Term and Sustainable Career with Michael Gill","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 16\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a little different from an ordinary episode for two main reasons. First, it\u0026rsquo;s not just me hosting the show. I\u0026rsquo;ve brought on a friend of mine named Peter. We\u0026rsquo;ve been friends for many years, and he has come on to help me co-host because he has a little more domain experience with our guest.\nSecond, this is a much longer episode. It goes for about an hour and a half, which is a little longer than usual. It can be split into two parts: the first half focuses more on the law and what my guest has accomplished in it, while the second focuses more on the soft skills that helped him get where he did. This is a fascinating interview with one of Australia\u0026rsquo;s most accomplished lawyers of the last 50 years. It is truly special and fantastic to be able to sit down with him today. Without further ado, please enjoy.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a little different. I have a co-host with me named Pete. He\u0026rsquo;s been a good friend of mine for many years and is a recent law graduate from the University of Adelaide. Please welcome Pete to the show today.\nPeter: Thanks for having me on, Fricker. I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to it.\nJames: Perfect. To introduce our guest today: he is a titan of the legal industry in Australia. Since graduating from university in 1970, he has been here, there and everywhere in the law. He has worked at what is now known as DLA Piper in Sydney for over 50 years, taking on roles including chairman and managing partner, and is now a consultant.\nHe has been president of the Law Society of New South Wales and president of the Law Council of Australia. He established the Australian Insurance Law Association and is now a life member of the Law Society of New South Wales. Affectionately known as Gilly, please welcome Michael Gill.\nMichael: Thanks, James. Thanks, Peter.\nGilly\u0026rsquo;s Experience at University # James: It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on today, Gilly. I\u0026rsquo;m really excited to chat, and I know Pete is as well. We want to start by winding back the clock to when you were at university, particularly some of the challenges and your general experience there.\nAnd are there any moments from university that really stick out to you?\nMichael: Well, yes, many. To set the scene, I came from a working-class background in Sydney and went through parochial Catholic schools with huge classes and lots of discipline. I was the first in my family to go to university. I got a good result at school, thanks to the brothers who taught us, earned a Commonwealth scholarship and entered first-year law at Sydney University at a pretty young age.\nI quickly learned that studying at university was very different from studying in a regimented, disciplined high school: you were really on your own. Without those learning skills—and with perhaps too many nights at the pub and too much football—I failed first-year law. I passed one subject out of four. On the relevant morning, I went to the newsagency and opened The Sydney Morning Herald. I was devastated to see the result. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure why I was surprised, but that\u0026rsquo;s another issue. I had to go home and tell my parents, who were more devastated than I was, and then tell my aunts, uncles and broader family.\nUltimately, I decided to go back, give it another shot and pay the fees the second time around. My great-grandmother helped me financially, which was good. I came to appreciate one of the most valuable lessons of my life: failure doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be negative. You don\u0026rsquo;t reach that understanding quickly or easily, but there is a great deal of learning in everything we do, including things we may initially see only as embarrassing failures. Ultimately, we can come to see them as positive experiences that we can share with other people and that help shape who we are.\nIt would be incredible if we experienced only one failure in our lives; that\u0026rsquo;s simply not real. The sooner you learn to love yourself, including your failures, the more harmonious life becomes. You can say, “I tried that, it didn\u0026rsquo;t quite work; let me get on with something else.” After that, second-, third- and fourth-year law were a bit of a breeze.\nThat was the start of the academic side of law. In third-year law, I had to find articles of clerkship. Coming from my background, getting in was a huge challenge. It didn\u0026rsquo;t put me off; it built a lot of resilience.\nPeter: That\u0026rsquo;s a good thing for people like Fricker and me to hear. At the very start of your career, you might build failures up in your head as the be-all and end-all and feel as though the sky is falling in. It\u0026rsquo;s a good reminder that the sun will come up again and you can keep moving forward. Eventually, hopefully, we will treat those failures as you do now: as great learning experiences and things you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t change. I\u0026rsquo;m sure you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t go back to first-year university now and pass with flying colours, because that experience helped make you the person you are and your career what it was.\nMichael: The next phase, articles of clerkship, was like an apprenticeship. During third- and fourth-year law, you needed a job in a law firm. If you had lots of relatives who were lawyers and judges, or went to one of the GPS schools and had good networks, you could find a position very quickly. Coming out of the Marist Brothers at Parramatta, however, I think I wrote about 420 application letters and had about 42 interviews before I joined the predecessor of my current firm on 25 March 1968.\nI started writing applications in August 1967 and got the job towards the end of March 1968. Interestingly, the job I ultimately got made the rest of my life. At the time, every rejection or unanswered letter felt like a setback. I now see that it was meant to be: in February or early March 1968, I read an advertisement in The Sydney Morning Herald from a little firm called Frank A. Davenport and Mant. I applied, got the job, and that became one of the most crucial steps in my career. I\u0026rsquo;m old now, so I can look back and see that I simply wasn\u0026rsquo;t yet right for those earlier opportunities.\nWhat are the articles of clerkship? # Peter: You\u0026rsquo;ve touched on it, but can you explain what articles of clerkship involved? Articles are no longer the process law students and graduates go through to start their careers. For listeners who may not be fully aware, what exactly did articles involve, and what lessons did you learn that might still apply to law students and recent graduates?\nMichael: In simple terms, practical legal training.\nPeter: Yes.\nMichael: It was before institutes and colleges of law provided that training, so it was very serious. My master solicitor, John Mant, who only died recently, and I had to appear before the Prothonotary of the Supreme Court. We both swore to a very serious document called the articles of clerkship. It described what my master solicitor would do to train me and what I would commit to—such as not pinching the stamps.\nPeter: Yes, an important one to uphold.\nMichael: It was, because it is an example of the honesty and integrity that are critical to our profession. John and his fellow partners—there were 13 in the firm—took their role very seriously. Interestingly, I was the first Catholic they had ever employed.\nThe Law Society had produced a little booklet called the Articled Clerks Handbook. Page one had a heading called “Admiralty”, and I think the last page had one called “Wills, Probate and Administration”. Between the two, it covered the practical aspects of everything. I was lucky because they took it seriously. I had other friends who spent two years in firms doing nothing but discharge work, while others spent most of their time photocopying or filing documents. Photocopying is important when it is part of a discovery process and must be accurate, and filing documents is important too, but those tasks aren\u0026rsquo;t the whole thing. I received the full experience from very generous people.\nArticles only died out because there was an explosion of law graduates in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and not every lawyer was a good teacher. We needed another way for the profession to provide this vital practical legal training. They set up the Leo Cussen Institute in Victoria, and we set up the College of Law in New South Wales after seeing Osgoode Hall in Canada. That probably covers it for you.\nPeter: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting because I finished practical legal training and was admitted last year. The process was very different for me, yet hearing about it also sounds quite similar. The difference is that the training has been moved away from the firm and into an institute, although we still had practical work-experience requirements. You were doing that practical work every day for two years on real cases and examples. A lot of law students today still get positions as clerks in firms from second or third year, so they\u0026rsquo;re getting similar experiences.\nThe Start of Gilly\u0026rsquo;s Career # Michael: It is important to learn the practical aspects at an early stage, because that training is equally important for your life as a whole. One of my first jobs as an articled clerk was as the low boy on the totem pole in one of Australia\u0026rsquo;s first major corporate-crime cases. It involved the collapse of H.G. Palmer. Our team was defending two of the directors, and I had three roles.\nI was in charge of photocopying and had to make nine copies of everything on an old chemical photocopier—the sort whose copies faded after four years. The most terrifying role, however, was approaching the Queen\u0026rsquo;s Counsel running the case at the morning-tea adjournment to ask what he wanted for lunch. I had to cross the road at Taylor Square to what was thought to be the best place to buy a sandwich and coffee: traditionally for Sydney in the late 1960s, a Greek café. Counsel would tell me what he wanted, I\u0026rsquo;d get the other orders, then slip out and make sure everything was ready in the counsel room at one o\u0026rsquo;clock because we had only an hour. I hated interrupting him, because he wasn\u0026rsquo;t happy to be interrupted.\nWhen court adjourned at four or 4:15, I had to wait for the transcript of evidence to be typed. At about nine that evening, I\u0026rsquo;d collect it from the court-reporting branch, return to the office and make nine copies. Then I\u0026rsquo;d deliver them to all the lawyers and barristers involved. I\u0026rsquo;d finish at about 11 or 11:30 and be back on the train at 6:30 or seven the next morning. That was simply the routine.\nPeter: Wow. I\u0026rsquo;m in-house, so it\u0026rsquo;s certainly not something I\u0026rsquo;ve been exposed to. It sounds very full-on; there couldn\u0026rsquo;t have been much sleep in those days.\nMichael: No. That was a big part of legal practice and still is for some people. Modern technology can be criticised, but it has certainly removed a lot of the unnecessary torture from the way we practise law.\nPeter: I\u0026rsquo;m glad that, although all young law students and graduates must do their fair share of photocopying and scanning, mine was on a more modern machine. If we jump forward to when you finished your articles, what was the process? Did you have a formal admission and become a solicitor and barrister of the Supreme Court of New South Wales? Where did your career go in those early post-admission days?\nMichael: We were a non-fusion state, Peter.\nMichael: I was admitted as a solicitor only of the Supreme Court of New South Wales—not to be confused with a barrister, those wicked people who like to dress up in drag and other things.\nDifference Between a Solicitor and a Barrister # James: What\u0026rsquo;s the actual difference between a solicitor and a barrister, Gilly? I\u0026rsquo;m not too familiar with these things.\nMichael: James, that\u0026rsquo;s a challenging question, fraught with a slight degree of cynicism on my part. Effectively, a barrister signs the roll of the Bar and spends most of their time acting as an advocate before the courts. Solicitors can do the same thing, and forever have done so in the minor courts. Otherwise, we work on the corporate side of things: documents, wills and probates, advice, setting up corporations and all that other work.\nWhen I started, South Australia probably didn\u0026rsquo;t have an independent Bar. In the 1960s and 1970s, in the fused states such as Western Australia and South Australia, you were admitted as both a solicitor and barrister. The best barristers were often in law firms. John von Doussa, for example, was in his father\u0026rsquo;s firm, von Doussa \u0026amp; Gregory, before becoming a specialist barrister and then a judge. Others such as Ted Mullighan became judges largely after practising as barristers.\nThat was the main difference. There has always been debate in the Australian profession about which is the best system, but I think the distinction has blurred.\nGilly\u0026rsquo;s First Job in Law # Michael: After being admitted by the court and signing the court roll, we had a party at the Law Society, where we were given practising certificates and became members. I then continued at the little firm, Frank A. Davenport and Mant. I was admitted in August 1970 and had a great leap forward in income. First-year articles paid seven dollars a week, second-year articles paid 15 dollars a week, and on day one as a solicitor I earned 85 dollars a week. To this day, that remains the biggest percentage jump in income I\u0026rsquo;ve ever experienced.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s amazing.\nMichael: That was fortunate because about two months before I was admitted, I had married on 4 July 1970 while earning 15 dollars a week. I was working in a broad-ranging practice, but my master, young John, was developing a strong reputation in insurance. He also loved town planning. His real passion wasn\u0026rsquo;t the law, but it was his father\u0026rsquo;s firm and he probably felt some obligation to it. His father was a die-hard Liberal Party member, while John was a Labor Party supporter, so their conversations were always interesting.\nIn about April 1971, John told me he was retiring from the partnership. He had decided to move to Canberra to work for the National Capital Development Commission. I thought, “If he\u0026rsquo;s going to leave, the source of my work will be gone, so I\u0026rsquo;d better start looking for a job.” A couple of weeks later, his father called me into his office. He said, “I understand my son\u0026rsquo;s leaving the firm, and I understand you think you must get another job.” I explained that I wasn\u0026rsquo;t sure where John\u0026rsquo;s clientele would go.\nHe said he had spoken to a couple of clients and that they were more than happy to leave their work with the firm as long as I continued doing it. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether that was true; I suspect he might have been bullshitting me because he didn\u0026rsquo;t want to hire somebody else. Still, it made me feel good. What followed felt even better, because he added without any prompting: “If you\u0026rsquo;re going to take on that responsibility, you will need to be a partner.”\nPeter: Wow.\nMichael: Yes. I went home and told my wife, who was about to give birth to our first child. She did so on 3 July, after I had become a partner on 1 July.\nPeter: Wow. Pretty good.\nMichael: Absolutely. John was also on the Young Lawyers Committee at the Law Society, and they invited me to take his seat. My career in what you might loosely call legal politics and related work also started from that. Going back to what I said earlier, wasn\u0026rsquo;t it fortunate that I didn\u0026rsquo;t get a job offer until I did?\nPeter: It\u0026rsquo;s incredible how those things work. It\u0026rsquo;s a good lesson for anyone who might be getting disheartened after a few unsuccessful applications, both within and outside the legal profession. Not many people will get a job and become a partner within a year of admission, but it\u0026rsquo;s still a lesson that where you end up may be where you\u0026rsquo;re supposed to be. Every knockback happens for a reason. You have to keep moving forward, trusting yourself and what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, and eventually you end up where you need to be.\nMichael: I think it underscores the importance of patience, Pedro. A job or professional career is not the totality of your life. During the 1970s, I also learned that one of the things most valuable to me was variety. I needed to do much more than spend my time finding legal solutions for clients.\nPeter: Especially today, there\u0026rsquo;s a big push for work–life balance. I\u0026rsquo;m based in Adelaide, where our perception is that if you\u0026rsquo;re a partner at a Sydney firm, work is all you do. I\u0026rsquo;m quite comfortable here and don\u0026rsquo;t plan to move, but it\u0026rsquo;s good to hear that both then and now it is possible to have variety and balance in your life. Your career is important, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t the be-all and end-all of who you are. You want to be Michael Gill, the great man, not just Michael Gill, the great lawyer.\nMichael: We shouldn\u0026rsquo;t use the word “great” unless it\u0026rsquo;s in relation to you two. Let me ask you a question.\nWhat is work? # Michael: Define “work” for me. What does the word mean to you?\nJames: Work is what you\u0026rsquo;re employed to do: your job or tasks for an employer. I might extend that to this podcast, which is probably work for me, although it\u0026rsquo;s fun and doesn\u0026rsquo;t feel like it. From a career perspective, I\u0026rsquo;d say that what you do for an employer is work.\nPeter: In a career sense, I agree with Fricker. To give a lawyer\u0026rsquo;s answer, though, there are many other ways to interpret the word. I play soccer, and going to training and trying to improve could be considered work. I don\u0026rsquo;t think it\u0026rsquo;s limited to turning up and doing tasks for an employer. It depends on how you think about it, although I\u0026rsquo;m not sure that fully answers your question.\nMichael: Very good answers. It\u0026rsquo;s something that will reveal itself to you personally, in your own circumstances, over time. Do you prefer James or Fricker?\nJames: James is fine. We have a few people named James in our friendship group, so two of my close friends call me Fricker because it\u0026rsquo;s easier.\nMichael: I\u0026rsquo;m totally distracted by the Fricker thing. So, James, when you say you do something for your employer, can you think of an example that is only for your employer, in which you personally have nothing invested?\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a good point. Even with a basic task such as sending emails, it\u0026rsquo;s still a mutually beneficial relationship because they\u0026rsquo;re paying you. In terms of career progression, what you do drives your career forward, makes you more employable and grows your skill set. That benefits you as well.\nMichael: Skills was one of the words I hoped you\u0026rsquo;d reach, setting money aside for a moment. Even a simple email has the potential to develop your knowledge and skills, as does every interaction if you think about it that way. I no longer see a work–life balance. Since retiring from the partnership in 2008 and having more time to read and think, I have come to see work as what you do while waiting for the real joys in your life. Once you reach a place where you think, “I really love doing this; this is me,” I promise you will never think of it as work again.\nMichael: You might love the people you\u0026rsquo;re with and the opportunities it gives you to develop as a human being. It can help you return to your family each day as a decent person. You no longer have to leave work at the front door because it all makes sense.\nIt isn\u0026rsquo;t easy, because so much in life competes with attaining that space. Your generation faces difficult expectations about lifestyle and earning enough to live in a particular way. You and those close to you can become locked into the idea that, whatever else you do, you need a job returning at least a certain amount each month. Young lawyers from big firms sometimes come to me five years after admission and say, “This isn\u0026rsquo;t really for me. I hate working in the M\u0026amp;A department of Freehills or DLA Piper.” I ask them whether they have thought about the money. If money isn\u0026rsquo;t terribly important to you as a lawyer, the world is your oyster.\nBut if your first requirement is a salary of at least $100,000 or $200,000 a year, or to remain on the slippery ladder to partnership, you close off a huge number of options. Those options might otherwise include your authentic self.\nGilly\u0026rsquo;s Favourite Lawyers # Michael: Think about three of the lawyers I admire most in life. People may see one of the choices as a little strange, but they are Mahatma Gandhi, Mikhail Gorbachev and Nelson Mandela—all truly great lawyers.\nPeter: Interesting. That\u0026rsquo;s definitely not where I thought you were going. Why those three?\nMichael: Where did you think I was going?\nPeter: I don\u0026rsquo;t know where I thought you were going.\nMichael: Pedro, this is our moment for candour and honesty. You can name names; I won\u0026rsquo;t be offended. Did you think I was going to mention people who were successful in the corporate world?\nPeter: Yes, perhaps members of the High Court. Honestly, though, I had no specific names in mind. I understand why you admire them as people, but I\u0026rsquo;d be interested to hear why you admire them as lawyers.\nMichael: Because the law is a very special and hugely privileged calling. We have the opportunity to stand in the most serious places, where lives are at risk, and say, “I speak on behalf of another human being. I represent this person.” That trust exists even in basic pro bono work around the suburbs and capital cities. Hopefully that is still broadly true, although our profession is not always blameless or perfect. Legal professional privilege and confidentiality—the law\u0026rsquo;s protection of what our clients tell us—are huge parts of what we do.\nNot enough people enter the profession for what it is. Too many see it largely as a meal ticket to a significant income, or want to sit on a pedestal and be looked up to as an important person entitled to praise and gratitude. That isn\u0026rsquo;t reasonable.\nPeter: That\u0026rsquo;s a perception held both within and outside the profession. As you said, the profession isn\u0026rsquo;t always blameless or without fault, which has been highlighted significantly in the media lately. It\u0026rsquo;s a great point for someone like me to remember as I progress through my career: make sure you\u0026rsquo;re in it for the right reasons. If you don\u0026rsquo;t enjoy it and money isn\u0026rsquo;t that important to you, there are opportunities besides climbing the firm structure. What advice do you give young lawyers who tell you money isn\u0026rsquo;t that important to them?\nWhen Money isn\u0026rsquo;t fulfilling you # Peter: How do you help them look beyond the traditional firm structure to find fulfilment in the profession?\nMichael: It comes back to what we\u0026rsquo;ve been discussing. The starting point is a willingness to find our authentic selves. Don\u0026rsquo;t begin with what\u0026rsquo;s available in the law; begin with yourself. That\u0026rsquo;s an everyday question for all of us. You don\u0026rsquo;t answer it as you would a business plan, saying, “Next month I\u0026rsquo;ll analyse who I am and insert it into the paragraph before values and mission.” It is a constant quest: who am I, and what makes me the most joyful person I can be?\nThe answer may be uncomfortable after studying at university, starting to practise law and getting a taste of the work. One basic question is whether you want to spend your life in a back room analysing and producing paper, or working with people. Where are you most comfortable? When do you feel you can do not only the most good in some airy-fairy sense, but the work that gives you the most life? You want to reach 74, as I have, and look back knowing you didn\u0026rsquo;t waste it—though no experience is truly wasted, because it is all learning.\nThe world obviously needs good practising lawyers in private firms. They experience great pressure because the people running those firms have different motivations. Some care deeply about the value of their equity, whether they earn two million dollars a year and whether Mallesons\u0026rsquo; partners make more than Allens\u0026rsquo; partners. I don\u0026rsquo;t know why that happens, but some of it reflects greed, selfishness and wanting more.\nThen there are millions of lawyers around the world who put their lives on the line for human rights, incarcerated children and the homeless. There are thousands of lawyers in prison, many alongside academics and social workers. Throughout Soviet and Nazi history and elsewhere, some members of our profession resisted, while others helped prop up and facilitate corrupt regimes. That is the power lawyers have in many lives. I hope every day that the basic decency and ethics of judges—and their response to our calling—will prevail. That may take us too far into politics, so I\u0026rsquo;ll return to your question.\nThink of a lawyer from Springfield, Illinois. You can probably name a famous one.\nPeter: I think I\u0026rsquo;ve got one in mind: Abraham Lincoln.\nMichael: Absolutely. But do you remember anything he did as a lawyer?\nPeter: Not specifically.\nMichael: No. You remember something else. You don\u0026rsquo;t remember a single submission he made to a court, but you remember the Gettysburg Address. If you don\u0026rsquo;t remember it and want a lesson in beautiful, short writing, look it up. Think too of John Kennedy, who established the Peace Corps and spoke about asking what you could do for your country rather than what your country should do for you.\nThat message asks what you are doing about an issue and why you couldn\u0026rsquo;t do better, rather than treating every problem as someone else\u0026rsquo;s responsibility. Think about the human-rights movement, climate change, the lawyers caught up in fighting it, and the role the law can play.\nSince retiring from the partnership, I have defined myself explicitly as a lawyer, but teaching in developing countries in Southeast Asia has undoubtedly become one of my great joys. I absolutely love it and learn so much from the students. I can\u0026rsquo;t teach them domestic law, but I can discuss the rule of law, access to justice, pro bono practice and professional skills.\nYou can enter government or corporations and lead by example. If you see bad behaviour, you can try to change it. If you can\u0026rsquo;t change it, you can resign and find another job, making your values and principles clear to anyone who will listen. One of the great things about lawyers is that we know the law. We can respectfully challenge a policeman whom we think has gone beyond their role, or stand in court and say, “With respect, Your Honour, I disagree with what you\u0026rsquo;ve just said.”\nPeter: You\u0026rsquo;ve touched on an important point for people at the start of their careers: the law can be involved in almost anything. In Adelaide, for example, there\u0026rsquo;s a major focus on the space industry and the new space agency. If that interests you, space law governs our relations in space, what you can do there and where you can go. There really isn\u0026rsquo;t a limit. Your advice is very helpful: discover what drives you and what your values and core beliefs are. The law touches every aspect of our lives, so if you want to make something happen, it can help you do so.\nWhen Gilly Found Himself # James: Can I jump in there, Gilly? Were there times when you were doing something that didn\u0026rsquo;t feel like you, given what you\u0026rsquo;ve said about authenticity? Perhaps you became involved in something, realised it wasn\u0026rsquo;t for you and left it behind—or realised it was for you and pursued it more deeply. Can you give us an example?\nMichael: There have been a few. One that may resonate with your broader audience involved a job offer. In the mid-1990s, banks and finance companies were going through demutualisation. Many banks and life and general insurers had been mutuals, owned by their account holders or policyholders. Then financial advisers arrived saying they had to free up capital. A household name such as AMP was no longer owned by its policyholders, but converted into a listed company. If you had an AMP policy, you received cash, but shareholders now owned the company.\nThese significant changes brought changes at the top. Companies decided they needed what was then an unusual role in Australia: a general counsel who wasn\u0026rsquo;t simply an in-house lawyer, but worked at the CEO\u0026rsquo;s elbow on everything. At the time, I was in private practice leading a large team of insurance lawyers. A headhunter approached me, and after three or four weeks I understood what was happening. I was offered extraordinary money for the mid-1990s, plus stock options when the company floated, because I was probably one of the best-known insurance lawyers in the country.\nAfter careful due diligence, however, I concluded that the company might behave in ways I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be comfortable with. I kept my wife informed, and my children—born in 1971 and 1973—were old enough to understand the value of a large cheque. The offer on the table looked irresistible, but ultimately it was unacceptable to me. I didn\u0026rsquo;t regret declining it for a second. Someone else took the role and my life continued very comfortably financially, although I could have doubled my income in one step.\nPeter: Wow.\nMichael: There was something about it that made me uncomfortable. I\u0026rsquo;ve since told people that it isn\u0026rsquo;t just about getting a job offer; it\u0026rsquo;s about getting one that is truly and authentically you. At times you can be desperate to receive an offer, but you must consider what you\u0026rsquo;re giving up in return.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s interesting that you place authenticity and being comfortable with what you do at a much higher value than money. Money can\u0026rsquo;t buy that authenticity or the feeling of working on something you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about. Young people can focus on the dollars and chase the highest-paying job, but it\u0026rsquo;s important to consider an organisation\u0026rsquo;s mission, how it achieves that mission, whether it aligns with your values, and whether your colleagues are people you aspire to be like. You treat that as by far the most important consideration.\nPeter: A lot of graduates forget that because finding a first job can be brutal. Even then, you should research each company or firm when you apply. If you can see from the outset that it won\u0026rsquo;t be a good fit, you don\u0026rsquo;t have to apply for every available role. It\u0026rsquo;s also important to remember when you have that first job and are considering a move.\nMichael: Once you start compromising your core values and beliefs, you\u0026rsquo;re on a slippery slope. There are remarkable examples around the world, perhaps none better than some fine lawyers who signed on with Donald Trump. Some, such as Michael Cohen, have served time in prison. Read their stories and consider what they lost by signing on to something that was wrong. Once you surrender your reputation, despite all our theories of forgiveness and second chances, it is very hard to get back. That isn\u0026rsquo;t unique to the law, though it has particular importance there. Let\u0026rsquo;s return to a happier topic.\nGilly\u0026rsquo;s experience overseas # Peter: I\u0026rsquo;d like to change tack. You were born, raised and began your career in Sydney, but you\u0026rsquo;ve had considerable interstate and overseas experience. How did you become involved in other jurisdictions—not only court work, but trade missions to China and similar work? From Adelaide, my perception is that Sydney and Melbourne can sometimes become bubbles. It would be interesting to hear how people can expand their horizons beyond those big markets.\nMichael: Again, it comes back to who you are, as well as patience and some luck. In 1981, when I was 33, I became president of the Law Society of New South Wales. That was something of a novelty, and the media would ask what I had done to get there. My work, meanwhile, allowed me to see the world at my clients\u0026rsquo; expense. I acted as an insurance lawyer for London, European and American insurers and reinsurers, and gradually developed a reputation in the field.\nIn about 1974 or 1975, I went to the London insurance market because I had been working with Lloyd\u0026rsquo;s of London, where business was transacted in a very specialised way that I didn\u0026rsquo;t fully understand. I told my partner I needed to go to London because I was appearing in court to explain how contracts were formed in that market. I went and spent several valuable weeks with clients and underwriters. At that time Australian insurance lawyers didn\u0026rsquo;t generally travel to see clients, so I became a slightly unusual figure and began receiving more work. When I became involved in a significant matter, I would travel to London to brief the parties and take instructions. Occasionally my wife, Kathy, came with me and we added a holiday to the end of the trip. That wasn\u0026rsquo;t entirely enjoyable for her, of course, because she was home raising the children while I was gallivanting.\nCoincidentally, I moved from Young Lawyers onto the Law Society Council at 26, when the average councillor was about 50. I brought some unusual ideas. We were also entering an era when professional-negligence claims against lawyers became important, and I was building a reputation in that field. As a Law Society vice-president in the late 1970s, I helped establish professional-negligence insurance for lawyers. Most states now have insurers of that kind. I also worked with the state government on groundbreaking insurance legislation.\nMichael Kirby—later a High Court judge, the author of many significant judgments and an openly gay jurist—was then leading the Australian Law Reform Commission. I had known him since I began practising, when he and Murray Gleeson were junior barristers. The commission helped establish a new legal regime for insurance in Australia. I made many overseas trips explaining to other markets how it differed from what they were accustomed to. The combination of those activities developed my reputation, brought plenty of work and involved considerable travel.\nIt also involved a great deal of speaking. As a Law Society office-bearer, I received presentation and media training and became comfortable with it. Everything was connected. I established the Australian Insurance Law Association and several insurance publications, and ultimately became president of the international association, which led me to many countries. Much of it happened by accident. Many clients in other places became close personal friends, so the relationships gained a dimension beyond the professional one.\nIs Gilly Driven or Relaxed # James: I have a question for you, Gilly. People I speak to on the podcast often seem to fall on one of two sides. Some are highly driven: they chase big goals and are serious about getting what they want. Others are equally successful but pursue their goals in a more relaxed way. Were you on the driven side, setting targets and deadlines, or were you more relaxed—taking an opportunity, doing your best and seeing where it led? Which way do you lean?\nMichael: The best possible answer is the one everyone gives: it depends on the time of your life and the circumstances. We are often not our own best judges; the people closest to us may have more accurate opinions. In my defence, I\u0026rsquo;d say I wasn\u0026rsquo;t driven, although my late wife and some former partners might disagree. If you asked whether I was determined, I would say yes. I have strong views and am not easily dissuaded, but as I progressed through life I became a much better listener and judge.\nWhen I was younger, determination sometimes meant reaching the end quickly because I had to know the answer. I now understand that the real value was in the journey. As an African proverb says, “If you want to travel fast, travel alone; if you want to travel far, travel together.” I\u0026rsquo;ve come to understand that much better.\nI dislike categorising people. Think about sport. The great cricketer Doug Walters would sit in the dressing room between innings, smoke cigarettes back-to-back, play cards and chew gum. He never showed any sign of being driven, but he was unbelievably tenacious. Steve Smith and Michael Clarke looked to the whole world as though nothing mattered more than never getting out. Then there is the other Gilly, Adam Gilchrist, who looked as though he was always having tremendous fun, yet was absolutely determined and tenacious and wouldn\u0026rsquo;t give the English a micrometre.\nIt is useful to be conscious of these traits, but don\u0026rsquo;t beat yourself up about them. I wonder about the word “driven”. We could Google its etymology, but to me it connotes something coming from outside you, almost as though you have no control, like a runaway locomotive. Aspiration, tenacity or determination seem more powerful because they come from inside you and you have more control over them. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t label any of those traits good or bad, right or wrong, because at different times they can create breakthroughs.\nI see a great deal of my determination in my eldest grandson. More importantly, the rest of the family tells me, “Michael, he\u0026rsquo;s exactly like you.” He\u0026rsquo;s very determined, but also loving and generous, and a spectacular basketball and rugby player who gives everything to the team. We must avoid judging people by a single line in their balance sheet. When you look at only one line, you miss the rest and may make inappropriate comparisons. Read René Girard: you can look at somebody and think, “What a mean person,” but perhaps that applies only in that circumstance. You don\u0026rsquo;t know what was happening in their life at that time or what else they had going on. I\u0026rsquo;ll get off the soapbox, Gilly; you\u0026rsquo;re not here for that.\nPeter: It\u0026rsquo;s useful life advice. You never know what someone else is going through. You\u0026rsquo;ve picked up two points: how other people perceive you, as with your family seeing you in your grandson, and the fact that we don\u0026rsquo;t always know someone else\u0026rsquo;s full story. Our perceptions may not match the truth. Someone who annoys you or rubs you the wrong way may have other things going on. Keeping an open mind and trying to be tolerant and respectful goes a long way, both at work and in life generally.\nMichael: And the other side is that he is quite unlike me. I see characteristics in him that I would have died to possess at his age. I would have loved his courage to stand by his convictions and respectfully challenge his parents. I was raised in an environment where you couldn\u0026rsquo;t have those conversations. I love that about him. He and I are very close, which is why I say you must look at the whole person.\nHow Gilly Dealt with Imposter Syndrome # James: I wanted to ask about imposter syndrome: being in a position but feeling you don\u0026rsquo;t deserve to be there or don\u0026rsquo;t have the skills to perform the role as well as expected. You made partner about a year into your legal career and later became president of different organisations. Were there points when you thought, “I\u0026rsquo;m not sure I can do this”? If so, how did you deal with those thoughts?\nMichael: The first thing I\u0026rsquo;d say, James, is that this is the first time I\u0026rsquo;ve heard the expression “imposter syndrome”. I\u0026rsquo;m probably grateful that, when I was an imposter, I didn\u0026rsquo;t know the syndrome existed, because I might not have tried.\nMore seriously, I can\u0026rsquo;t think of any important circumstance in which I felt alone. Whatever serious work I did was in the company of other people. I might have been leading, but there was always a team of supportive people who didn\u0026rsquo;t mind that I wasn\u0026rsquo;t perfect. That gives you tremendous confidence.\nI did sometimes feel alone when being interviewed, particularly by an aggressive journalist, or speaking about insurance law here or overseas when somebody in the audience might know more and challenge me. In the late 1970s, the Law Society gave me presentation, public-speaking and media training. The legal profession was moving into marketing for the first time; before then, professional ethics treated advertising as a terrible thing. Suddenly we had to appear publicly alongside other spokespeople who understood promotion.\nOne trainer taught me that, if you are invited to speak because you\u0026rsquo;re seen as a subject expert, about 98 per cent of the audience will know less than you. The joke was that the other two per cent, who might know more, would probably be too afraid of embarrassing themselves to ask a question. That gave me confidence. Another wise person taught me the power of both asking questions and saying immediately, “I don\u0026rsquo;t know the answer to that.”\nProbably hundreds of young lawyers worked for me. Each reached a new point in my estimation when I first heard them say, “Michael, I don\u0026rsquo;t know the answer to that question, but I\u0026rsquo;ll find out for you.” Many young lawyers—and this applies beyond the law—enter the workplace thinking they possess complete knowledge and cannot admit ignorance in front of a superior. Saying “I don\u0026rsquo;t know” is one of the most important steps in maturing as a human being.\nPeter: I relate to that. Young professionals, not only lawyers, can fear looking stupid in front of a boss or more senior colleague. I\u0026rsquo;ll take on board that it\u0026rsquo;s okay to say you don\u0026rsquo;t know.\nMichael: It\u0026rsquo;s essential. One other practice, connected with my Catholic background, was important to me. Before any meeting that concerned me, I took about a minute to pray and clear my head. It placed me in a more sacred, calm space where I could tell myself, “This might be a rugged meeting with difficult agenda items, but you\u0026rsquo;re surrounded by people. Australia has abolished the death penalty and we don\u0026rsquo;t crucify people anymore. The worst outcome is that you don\u0026rsquo;t achieve what you wanted, and that isn\u0026rsquo;t the end of the world.” In a situation where you feel out of your depth, that can put you back on dry land and remind you that this is only one event in the larger scheme of things.\nJames: I get the sense that you\u0026rsquo;re a very humble person, Gilly. That humility is important when you\u0026rsquo;re asked something you don\u0026rsquo;t know. If you pretend to know more than you do, you can create awkward situations.\nMichael: It can backfire badly, whatever your area of endeavour. It is much easier to remember the truth. If you\u0026rsquo;re guessing and throwing things out, someone may later ask, “Didn\u0026rsquo;t you tell me something different two weeks ago?” Remembering a lie can be difficult. We can all identify with that; there is nobody on the planet who hasn\u0026rsquo;t bent the truth from time to time and been caught out.\nGilly\u0026rsquo;s Rituals and Practices # James: You described taking a minute to pray and put yourself in a better space before a meeting. Were there other principles, habits or rituals you followed consistently that helped you accomplish what you did? Many people would look at your career and say, “That\u0026rsquo;s what I want for myself.”\nMichael: Rituals are incredibly important, but let\u0026rsquo;s put them aside for a moment. Trust is also critical: work out who the most important people in your life are. Who can you turn to with your anxieties, fears and worries? None of us is immune. Most people experience anxiety, depression or self-doubt to some extent, both personally and professionally and in their relationships. We all need anchors, whether they come from religious belief or somewhere else. Those people may be the friends you see on an occasional Saturday night, but they may be entirely different.\nPersonal relationships are important because so many challenges occur in isolation. If you can\u0026rsquo;t find a way out of that isolation, you may encounter loneliness, anxiety and related problems. I often mentor people who struggle with the emotional side of their lives. When your internal thoughts—personal, professional or business—turn towards the dark side, you need rituals or methods that help you transition out of it. Everybody needs them.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve always encouraged people to buy a helicopter, which normally evokes a smile or laugh. It\u0026rsquo;s a metaphorical helicopter, but keep it ready. When you\u0026rsquo;re totally absorbed in internal thoughts, jump into it, rise 200 metres and look down at yourself, asking loudly, “What the fuck is going on down there?” Develop techniques or rituals that create those out-of-body experiences. You may still need books, a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but the technique helps you understand in a detached way what is happening inside you. I\u0026rsquo;ve just given you the helicopter as a method for shifting perspective. Do you need something like that? How do you handle negative thinking personally?\nPeter: I have one. It isn\u0026rsquo;t a helicopter or an out-of-body experience, which I don\u0026rsquo;t think I\u0026rsquo;ve had, though it sounds worth trying. I like to go for a long drive south from where I live, towards Sellicks Beach. I stop, look at the beach and try to empty my mind. By Adelaide standards it\u0026rsquo;s a long drive—about 45 minutes—though by Sydney standards that\u0026rsquo;s a trip to the shops. Being in the car with music playing is my approach.\nMichael: You\u0026rsquo;ve developed a technique that works for you, which is excellent. And James?\nJames: Like Pete, I get out of the house, although I prefer to walk. Near my house in Adelaide is Mount Osmond, a great lookout over the whole city. I walk there without my phone and deal with whatever is going on. Here in Melbourne, I\u0026rsquo;ll walk along the Yarra and get it out of my system. During the last 500 metres on the way home, I refocus: the long walk is over, and it\u0026rsquo;s time to get back in the zone. I find that helpful.\nMichael: Those techniques may apply more readily to personal circumstances than professional or business ones, where you sometimes have to adapt. In a serious mediation or court case, you may not be able to jump in the car or take a long walk. You may nevertheless become so distracted by an opponent\u0026rsquo;s unethical conduct that you think more about that than the issue you are trying to resolve for your client\u0026rsquo;s benefit.\nAcross my whole life, I have become comfortable with the idea that I know very little. Human beings know very little about many issues, and that may never change. I accept that as part of who I am, so I don\u0026rsquo;t beat myself up when something evades my analysis. Perhaps that\u0026rsquo;s how it\u0026rsquo;s meant to be.\nIllness is a good example. I have friends who handle it brilliantly. One is the great Adelaide lawyer and my fellow insurance lawyer John Fountain, who has lived with leukaemia since 2009 and has an extraordinary way of dealing with it. Other people in similar circumstances naturally ask, “Why did this happen to me? Why do these things happen to children?” I don\u0026rsquo;t know. My wife died at 70; that is what life sometimes brings. When acceptance forms the background to your question, many other things become easier to handle.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s profound. I like that a lot. I have one question left, but first, Pete, is there anything else you\u0026rsquo;d like to ask? I\u0026rsquo;m sure we could talk with Gilly all day.\nThe Most Interesting Matter Gilly Has Worked On # Peter: One more legal question, purely out of curiosity: what is one of the most interesting matters you\u0026rsquo;ve worked on?\nMichael: It wasn\u0026rsquo;t a case. Is that all right?\nPeter: Of course—a matter or whatever form it took.\nMichael: It\u0026rsquo;s easy to choose because it was only seven years ago. In 2015, the Insurance Council of Australia asked me to lead a task force examining the effectiveness of pre-contract documents provided when people arrange insurance. For non-lawyers, these are the consumer legal documents that inundate you when you open a bank account, take out insurance or do something similar. They concern consumer rights, financial literacy and related issues.\nIt was an amazing exercise for many reasons, including the first time I had been asked to work with a behavioural scientist. Just before we submitted our report to the Insurance Council board, one of the younger insurance-company representatives on the task force called me to discuss its title. They referred to a list of social-media abbreviations, such as LOL, and suggested using a newly added expression as the report\u0026rsquo;s name. I checked it with my three daughters, who had never heard of it either, so we called the report Too Long; Didn\u0026rsquo;t Read. People around the world became excited by it; I even presented it in the Netherlands. The abbreviation is, of course, TL;DR.\nThat expression applies to almost every piece of consumer material intended to help people make wise decisions: it is too long for them even to be interested. A few weeks after publishing the report, I spoke to lawyers at the firm who had earned it a great deal of money drafting these documents for insurers and banks. I told them the reality: they had produced documents that were excellent for their clients and completely useless to their clients\u0026rsquo; customers.\nPeter: Now.\nMichael: I began to see more clearly that the best outcome isn\u0026rsquo;t always a legal one.\nPeter: I can apply that lesson at work. I write a lot of disclaimers and similar material for our customers that realistically nobody reads. It\u0026rsquo;s worth thinking about how to write them in a way that actually communicates.\nMichael: This connects with the banking Royal Commission. Kenneth Hayne, the former High Court judge who led it, made clear that a legal outcome isn\u0026rsquo;t always the right one. For many reasons we don\u0026rsquo;t have time to explore, corporations over the last 50 years have sought legal sign-off. They ask in-house or external lawyers whether something is legal, then senior management and the board proceed. I had been saying for about 15 years—and Hayne later said—that obtaining a legal opinion is the start of the process. You must then decide what you should do.\nPeter: I\u0026rsquo;m definitely going to keep that one locked away. That\u0026rsquo;s good.\nMichael: That applies to every human being, James, because all of us are consumers. We know what it\u0026rsquo;s like to be left on hold by Telstra while being told our call is important. When they say I\u0026rsquo;m being recorded for training purposes, I say, “I\u0026rsquo;m also recording you for feedback purposes.” That creates a little silence. If my call were truly important, they would have more people answering phones. Consumers know the message is delivered through gritted teeth, but someone in marketing says, “You have to tell them their call is important,” without worrying about how inconsistent the company\u0026rsquo;s behaviour is. That\u0026rsquo;s a bit of career advice. Did you get something out of it?\nGilly\u0026rsquo;s Advice for New Graduates # James: I have one final question to close the interview. This podcast is about graduates and people starting their careers. What advice would you give someone entering the workforce in 2022?\nMichael: So, James, when do you start your career?\nJames: In my mind, it\u0026rsquo;s when you get your first full-time job.\nMichael: Does your tertiary education have nothing to do with your career?\nJames: I think it does. Yeah, it definitely does.\nMichael: So what is your question?\nJames: How about advice for entering the workforce?\nMichael: Are you familiar with 18 and Lost, Pedro? James, I think you are. It was written by a group of students and asked what they knew at 26 or 27 that they wished they had known at 18. The knowledge, experience, values and skills you bring to choosing a university course are far less developed than they are at 26, after one of the most formative periods of your life.\nThe first lesson, James, is that keeping an open mind and an open heart is more than a fashionable phrase; it is one of life\u0026rsquo;s great survival skills. You haven\u0026rsquo;t wasted your school or tertiary education, but remain open-minded about how you will use it throughout your life. Be prepared to extend yourself without guilt, remorse or shame. If you\u0026rsquo;re tempted to think, “I\u0026rsquo;ve made a mistake,” remember that you haven\u0026rsquo;t: like me in first-year law, you\u0026rsquo;re learning.\nBegin to understand what ignites your passion, where your light comes from and what feels authentically you. Do it for yourself rather than an employer, your parents or other people who have expectations of you. Learn to distinguish your own feelings from the bombardment of social media and other material that pushes you in a particular direction. Somewhere along the way, your inner voice may say, “I\u0026rsquo;m not quite sure about that.”\nI tell anyone who will listen that we have three important ways of knowing: head, heart and gut. Keep them in balance and listen to all three. Then walk down life\u0026rsquo;s path understanding that it is a process and a journey, not merely a destination. It\u0026rsquo;s fine to say, “In five years, I\u0026rsquo;d like to be a senior associate at DLA Piper,” but it shouldn\u0026rsquo;t occupy you completely. Leave room for surprises and embrace them. You may think, “I didn\u0026rsquo;t expect that. What a gift. How did I meet somebody at a nightclub at 11:30 who can contribute to my curiosity about my career or something else?”\nLife is more than a single career. It is about activating all your unique gifts and leaving none on the shelf. That is a lot to digest, but I can add one more practical point. In business circumstances involving clients, be generous—not to build a reputation, but because people respond to generosity. We all know how we feel about people who are genuinely generous: they aren\u0026rsquo;t looking for anything in return, but simply want to do something for us. That activates something in us, just as it does in others. Cynics may ask, “Why did they do that? What\u0026rsquo;s in it for them?”, but we should rise above that because we understand the value of unconditional generosity.\nGenerosity has the same effect in personal relationships. Early in a relationship, you may do something small without realising how much it means: perhaps you tidy the kitchen while waiting to take somebody out, instead of sitting and watching one of Adelaide\u0026rsquo;s football teams on television. Whole-of-life skills, business skills, professional skills and personal skills are the same. You don\u0026rsquo;t become one person when you put on a suit, another in a basketball uniform and a third when you change clothes again. These are life skills; we don\u0026rsquo;t put on different outfits for them.\nPeter: I think that\u0026rsquo;s a perfect note on which to end.\nJames: I agree. Thanks so much for your time today, Gilly. That was a great note to end on. I\u0026rsquo;ve learned a lot from this conversation, so thank you for sharing your time with us.\nHow To Contact Gilly # James: Thanks as well, Pete, for coming on. It was a good experience.\nPeter: Thanks for asking me, and thank you, Michael, for everything you\u0026rsquo;ve shared over the last couple of hours. It has been insightful and interesting to talk with you.\nMichael: Lastly, Peter, thank you for wearing the tie. It was a nice reminder to me of what they are.\nJames: Gilly, one last thing: if a listener wants to learn more about you or get in touch, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place to do that?\nMichael: Give them my email address.\nJames: Sure. I\u0026rsquo;ll leave it in the show notes so people can find it.\nMichael: Not a problem.\nJames: Wonderful.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my three key takeaways, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can receive them and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 16\n","date":"7 February 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/16-on-building-a-long-term-and-sustainable-career-with-michael-gill/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 16\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On building a long term and sustainable career with Michael Gill","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Dan Brockwell is a Computer Science and Marketing graduate from UNSW.\nHe has worked in marketing, consulting, design, sales \u0026amp; ops at Amazon, Uber, Deloitte Digital, IBM + startups and is currently a product manager at Atlassian.\nOn the side, he is Co-Founder and Chief Meme Officer at Earlywork, which now has an audience of over 2,500 people and has been featured by the AFR, Startup Daily and Smart Company.\nHe is part of the angel investing program at AirTree Ventures, an angel investor and also an Advisor at NinetyEight, a cross-continent Gen Z marketing agency.\nLevel Up Your Career\n🤝 Connect with Dan # Twitter - https://twitter.com/DanBrockwell\nEarlywork - https://www.earlywork.co/\nEarlywork Substack - https://earlywork.substack.com/\nEarlywork Slack Community - https://earlyworkcommunity.slack.com/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Content is King # Dan highlighted the importance of building a personal brand. Creating content requires no permission and can lead to great opportunities. Dan mentioned that he had been offered a job at Google through his personal brand.\nSkill Layering # Something we\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about on the podcast before is the idea of layering. Dan has had crazy experiences in marketing, consulting, design, sales \u0026amp; ops that all give him a new way to look at and solve problems. The best time to get this width is early in your career. Try things and get exposure. This will give you an edge later in your career.\nYou Don\u0026rsquo;t Need a Job Listing # One thing that I really wanted to discuss with Dan was the idea of getting jobs through unconventional methods in comparison to applying for a listed job.\nHe gave great examples where he had found opportunities simply by reaching out to people and asking if they were open to taking someone on.\nHe made some great points about the specifics of reaching out to people. In your contact with people, include the following 👇\nWho you are\nWhy you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s in it for them\nAnd use the following techniques\nprovide value (write a post, suggest an improvement to the business)\nclear ask (\u0026ldquo;would you be open to \u0026hellip;.\u0026rdquo;)\nStartups vs Corporate # Dan spoke about the pros and cons of each of these. I\u0026rsquo;ve listed the benefits of working in either corporate or a startup\nStartups\nhigher breadth of learning, you are more likely to do multiple jobs\nwork more quickly, less red tape, unstructured learning\nmore autonomy and ownership\nworking on new problems vs iterating on previous solutions\nequity in the company as compensation\nCorporate\nBrand equity, people trust you will be good because you worked at X company\nThe big company structured training programs are better\nMentorship and structure\nProducts used by a larger audience, work makes a bigger impact\nHigher salary\nHigher job safety\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 Dan Brockwell\n00:37 Intro\n01:35 Personal Brands in 2022\n04:27 How Would Dan Start a Personal Brand in 2022\n07:55 How to convert your personal brand into opportunities\n12:07 Startups and Corporate Comparison\n22:05 Dan\u0026rsquo;s Thought Process behind going from Corporate to Startups\n27:32 Getting Jobs without a job opening\n37:11 What Dan Thinks Of Range\n46:24 Dans\u0026rsquo; Advice to New Graduates\n49:14 Contact Dan\n50:29 Outro\n","date":"31 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/15-on-startups-corporate-and-the-importance-of-personal-branding-with-dan-brockwell/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Dan Brockwell is a Computer Science and Marketing graduate from UNSW.\n","title":"On Startups, Corporate and the Importance of Personal Branding with Dan Brockwell","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 15\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode covers the importance of personal branding, the advantages and disadvantages of working at an established corporation versus a startup, and how to find jobs without waiting for permission. It\u0026rsquo;s one of the best conversations on Graduate Theory. Please enjoy.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a computer science and marketing graduate from the University of New South Wales. He\u0026rsquo;s worked in marketing, consulting, design, sales and operations at companies including Amazon, Uber, Deloitte and IBM, as well as several startups. He is currently a product manager at Atlassian. Alongside this, he is a co-founder and chief meme officer at Earlywork, which now has an audience of over two and a half thousand people. It has been featured by the Australian Financial Review, Startup Daily and SmartCompany. He\u0026rsquo;s part of the angel-investing program at AirTree Ventures, an angel investor himself and an adviser at 98, a cross-continent Gen Z marketing agency.\nPlease welcome to the show, Dan Brockwell.\nDan: James, mate, thank you so much. I think we\u0026rsquo;re going to have some fun today.\nJames: Absolutely. There is so much I want to discuss with you, Dan.\nPersonal Brands in 2022 # James: Personal branding is constantly evolving. How important is an online personal brand in 2022?\nDan: I would modify the question slightly: a personal brand for whom? Are you a startup founder, job seeker or investor, and what do you want to use it for? A personal brand can serve very different purposes. It may be career-related, or it may support your work as a musician or artist outside your career. Only recently in human history has it become possible to write something once and let many people see it so easily.\nAn online personal brand lets you share your story much more scalably: you do the work once, then many people learn who you are. There\u0026rsquo;s an old expression, “It\u0026rsquo;s not what you know, it\u0026rsquo;s who you know.” The modifying factor is actually who knows you.\nThe further refinement is: who knows you for what? An online personal brand gives you more shots on goal. You may be a poor striker in football, but if more people learn what you do, enough shots will eventually produce some goals.\nJames: Online technology also makes the marginal cost of distribution effectively zero. Sending a newsletter to ten people costs the same as sending it to a thousand or a million, so there is almost no limit to the number of people a personal brand can reach.\nDan: Absolutely. Naval Ravikant, the founder of AngelList, describes code and media as two highly scalable forms of leverage. You can write software once and scale it to millions of people, or create content once and do the same. A third example is law: legislation is written once and can affect millions for a long time. But changing the law requires far more permission and hierarchy than creating code or content. Today, young people can build online careers by writing content and software without waiting for anybody\u0026rsquo;s permission.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s powerful. You have built a substantial personal brand.\nHow Would Dan Start a Personal Brand in 2022 # James: If you began again today, how would you decide what to discuss and where to publish it?\nDan: Think about content and context: what to say and where to put it. I have no regrets, but I wish I had begun documenting what I learned when I entered the technology and startup world during my first year at university. My first proper university job was at a startup. Sharing that early journey with friends—many of whom did not know that world existed—would have been fun.\nYou can be young and inexperienced while still knowing more about a particular subject than many others. Everybody has a unique journey. You do not need to be the best in the world; you may simply know much more than your friends about something, such as running a podcast, and can begin documenting it.\nIn terms of format, I would experiment more with video. I have favoured text because it offers a strong return on effort: beyond the writing itself, production requires little work, yet it scales widely. Video is deep, engaging and human. We will explore that opportunity with Earlywork through Earlytalk on TikTok.\nChoose subjects that genuinely interest you and that you are already learning about. Most people read about hobbies, passions and other fascinations in their spare time. The best content comes from authentic curiosity combined with an experience that other people may not share. The magic lies at the intersection of your distinctive experiences—perhaps knowledge about creating a podcast—and the subjects that naturally draw your curiosity.\nI also see content as a tool. If you create something for others, ask what need or problem it addresses. Content should be actionable: somebody should be able to read a newsletter or hear a podcast and apply its ideas directly in the following week. Your content may begin by solving your own problem, then reveal that others share it.\nJames: I think it\u0026rsquo;s powerful regardless of age. Your point about video was interesting too. Keeping up with all the different media landscapes can be tricky, but video is particularly exciting. I think TikTok may now receive more searches than Google.\nDan: More mobile searches.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s incredible.\nHow to convert your personal brand into opportunities # Dan: It has grown enormously.\nJames: Suppose you have started building a personal brand through Substack, Twitter or another platform because you want to market yourself and attract opportunities. How do you convert that brand into tangible opportunities?\nDan: My thesis with Earlywork was to build the customer before the product. A brand creates an audience. When you curate an audience around a niche interest, it becomes valuable both to its members and to others. As your personal brand and audience grow, ask what the audience has in common, which problems its members share and how you can solve them.\nEarlywork began as a Substack newsletter. In September 2020, I started curating technology and startup internships and graduate roles for ten friends in Sydney. It grew to roughly 600 subscribers, perhaps approaching a thousand, before I launched a community around the newsletter with my co-founder, John.\nThe content was gaining traction and people enjoyed reading it. We had a small LinkedIn group of highly engaged users, whom we supported closely in exchange for feedback and suggestions. I began to see that young Australians interested in technology and startups lacked a strong social fabric. The content therefore evolved into a community. A one-way conversation, in which we distributed free information, became a two-way dialogue: we spoke with our audience, and its members spoke with us and one another.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great example of turning content into a real community. Once an audience reaches critical mass, shared problems and desires become visible, making it clearer how to serve its members.\nDan: Exactly. If you started a newsletter about tricycles, reached 10,000 subscribers and achieved a 40 per cent open rate, a tricycle company would gladly sponsor it. Tricycles are not my primary focus, but any audience built around a strong niche interest will attract people on the other side who can provide something relevant. By curating that audience, you can connect parties with complementary wants and create a system that helps both obtain what they need.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s powerful, and I love what Earlywork is doing. From high school through university, I looked for other people who wanted to do interesting work and make an impact. Earlywork has found at least 2,500 people with a similar outlook and brought them together in one place. It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic.\nStartups and Corporate Comparison # James: I want to talk more about startups in Australia. At university, many people aim to get good grades, secure a good job and join a successful large company. What would you say to someone considering that path and wondering whether a startup might be better?\nDan: This is an interesting choice for a first full-time job after a couple of internships. I do not want to prescribe one answer because it will differ between people. I have moved from startups to corporations, back to startups, then into a corporation again while building a startup. I can describe the patterns I have noticed.\nThe first startup advantage is breadth of learning. The smaller the company, the broader your role and the more hats you wear. When you\u0026rsquo;re young, exploring many types of work can be valuable. At Offload, a logistics startup, I handled recruitment, market research, customer success, graphic design, copywriting, email marketing, analytics and legal work under the title of operations—which could mean almost anything.\nSecond, startups tend to move faster because they have fewer approval systems and layers of hierarchy. You can create and release things to customers sooner, learn more quickly and grow faster. That velocity of learning is extremely important for a young graduate.\nThird, startups tend to offer greater autonomy and ownership, although exceptions exist. A junior employee might own the entire marketing function. That responsibility creates room to experiment, make mistakes and learn from them.\nFourth, startups are more likely—though not guaranteed—to address genuinely unsolved problems rather than refine a solution and customer base that already work. I find unsolved problems tremendously enjoyable.\nFinally, many startups offer equity. Not every company becomes Uber, but owning part of the business gives you skin in the game: as you help it grow, your holding grows too. An eventual initial public offering or acquisition could create a significant opportunity, although an early-stage company\u0026rsquo;s future is very difficult to predict.\nI love startups and have enjoyed them, but large companies offer their own advantages. People should consider both sets of benefits in light of their career stage.\nThe first corporate advantage is brand equity. Fairly or not, people use brands as a proxy for competence. You should not spend your life at famous organisations simply to display their names, but early in your career, experience at Google or Facebook provides a stamp of approval. People know you passed the interview process and learned how that company operates. Large companies survived and grew because they did certain things well, so you absorb their processes. I have learned excellent tools from Atlassian, Uber and Amazon. You can also acquire brand equity through internships without committing to a graduate role at the same company.\nSecond, large companies generally provide more structured learning and mentorship. At Atlassian, I have a mentor, an associate product manager program guide and a manager. The company offers sessions with senior product leaders and external startup founders, along with asynchronous video courses. Large organisations have had time to build extensive libraries, talent pools and structured learning resources.\nSome startups also let you work directly with founders and receive substantial mentorship. Structure may be overrated; mentorship is the crucial element, and young people with suitable tools and resources can teach themselves.\nLarge companies also place you in a broad talent pool of intelligent people who may later become your investors, co-founders, employees or managers. Atlassian has many excellent product managers. I can speak with them, observe how they work and think, and absorb valuable lessons.\nThe counterpart to a startup\u0026rsquo;s unsolved problems, autonomy and ownership is a large company\u0026rsquo;s scale. You may work on a product used by millions or even billions of people, such as Google Maps.\nWriting code once and improving a task in millions of lives creates immediate impact that startups may take years to reach.\nMature technology companies also tend to pay higher salaries. Early-stage startups usually pay somewhat less, although growth-stage companies can compete with large technology firms. Established software companies often make substantial revenue at a low marginal cost and can afford high compensation to retain people.\nThe final consideration is safety. I mean job safety, not career safety. A role at Atlassian, Amazon or Google is less likely to disappear, while a startup could collapse within six or eighteen months. But job risk and career risk are different. Joining a company that fails after a year or two may still benefit your career because you held significant responsibility, learned rapidly and delivered measurable impact. If your financial circumstances are difficult, however, a large company may be the safer choice.\nUltimately, the decision depends on the problems you want to solve, the skills you want to develop, the environment you prefer and your career goals.\nJames: That was a balanced view of both environments. Through Earlywork and my growing awareness of Australia\u0026rsquo;s startup ecosystem, I\u0026rsquo;ve seen that people may undervalue the experience smaller startups can offer. Many graduates move directly towards large, secure companies, but startups can also provide excellent opportunities.\nDan: Exactly. People often want to join Google or Microsoft to learn from experienced, highly skilled colleagues, but those people do not always remain at large companies; many join startups. At a company such as Eucalyptus or Dovetail, you may receive mentorship from people who developed their skills and processes at major organisations. A growth-stage or breakout startup can therefore offer a sweet spot: a fast-paced environment with high ownership and mentorship from top-company alumni.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great point.\nDan\u0026rsquo;s Thought Process behind going from Corporate to Startups # James: You interned at several large companies before moving into startups. What was your thought process? Many listeners hold relatively safe corporate roles and may see a startup as risky. What helped you and others make that transition?\nDan: I was fortunate that my first university role was at a startup. It began with a cold email and an ambassador program, which led to a job. Two months later, the company was acquired by Airbnb and I lost that job. I thought it was exciting and joined another startup, so I gained exposure early.\nYoung people who think seriously about their careers, go the extra mile and pursue side projects are already ahead through their effort and care. If you\u0026rsquo;re deciding whether to leave a large company for a startup, first ask which problems you genuinely care about. What matters enough that you think about it over breakfast on the weekend? Do not join merely because the company might become large and make you wealthy.\nStartups can be difficult, and their hours vary, so I will not generalise. Identify the problems you want to solve and the Australian companies addressing them. Review the portfolios of leading venture capital firms such as Blackbird, AirTree, Square Peg and Folklore, then investigate the companies operating in problem spaces you care about.\nNext, consider learning: what will you learn, and how quickly? Do you want technical or design skills, a broad strategic perspective, or product-management experience? Be intentional about the skills you want and ask whether that environment will teach them.\nFinally, consider camaraderie. Look at the team, culture and manager. Do you want to spend substantial time with these people and become more like them? If you leave a corporation for a startup, join a strong team addressing a market you genuinely care about with a product that has a credible, differentiated way to solve the problem.\nJames: Those are valuable questions to ask during the process. Good questions help you reach better answers, while trusting your instincts can also be useful. If a company or field does not feel right, that may be a signal to investigate other opportunities.\nDan: Trusting my instincts was something I struggled with throughout university. When I received a job offer, I would write an extensive list explaining why it was good or bad. Emotionally, I often already knew I did not want the role, yet I would conduct an excessive analysis and speak with 20 people. I naturally overanalyse.\nLearning when to trust your instincts is important, but you should still collect data. Speak with people in positions you would like to occupy and gather advice from varied sources. Give greater weight to people doing the work that interests you and holding the kinds of roles you want.\nThen return to your values, what you truly care about and your gut feeling. Usually, the right answer will be within you.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s important: don\u0026rsquo;t simply trust your gut without information.\nDan: Gather the information.\nJames: Then make the important choice yourself.\nDan: Exactly. You may collect information and reject most of it, but you have completed the due diligence. We all have blind spots and biases, and sometimes we simply make poor judgements. A second opinion is valuable. At times, my instincts have told me to proceed, only for other people to identify something I had not considered. Seek advice, but you do not have to accept it.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s true.\nGetting Jobs without a job opening # James: You mentioned reaching out to a company and creating a job opportunity. Few people do this, although many employees tell me it is a good idea. Instead of waiting for a listing and competing with thousands of applicants, you contact and meet people at a company you admire. What has your experience been with this unconventional approach?\nDan: Job listings are only the tip of the labour-market iceberg. People apply to the visible roles and hope for the best, but startups are constantly growing, raising money and hiring. Referrals, informal introductions and other hidden opportunities fill many roles. Startups value proactive people, so do not wait for a job listing—create one.\nI worked at three startups during university. The first was Tilt, a social-payments startup. Some friends and I had been conceptualising an app called Friends with Deficits to track debts between friends in different currencies. Competitive research led me to Tilt, which had already solved the problem. I discovered its ambassador program and emailed the Australian country manager to ask whether I could join. After a few months as an ambassador, I converted the opportunity into a growth internship and led a program involving several hundred students across Australia.\nThat opportunity came from two things: a proactive cold email and participation in something related to the company before holding a formal role. An ambassador program is one route, but you might join a beta-testing group, conduct user research or promote the company. You can become affiliated with an organisation before becoming an employee.\nMy second internship was with a restaurant-ordering startup whose app let diners order from their phones, similar to me\u0026amp;u or Mr Yum. Before launch, I saw its Facebook advertisement for a referral competition, shared it across university discussion groups and reached the top ten referrers within about 24 hours. I then messaged a founder or operating executive on LinkedIn, explained my interest in the problem and the promotion I had already done, and asked whether they were open to a marketing intern. We met once at Westfield Bondi Junction, and I worked with the company for about six months.\nCold LinkedIn messages are powerful. Structure them around “who, why and what”: who you are, why you are contacting this person and what is in it for them. Explain, for example, that you are studying a particular subject and interning somewhere relevant; describe what you admire about their work; and ask whether they are open to an intern. Do not ask only whether they are currently advertising one. People without a listing may still be open to a conversation.\nIt also helps to create value before making contact. I had already promoted the app, demonstrating that I would act without waiting for instructions and find ways to help the company.\nThe third example was Offload, an Australian road-freight logistics startup advertising a full-time operations role. I was working at Amazon, developing my interest in logistics and wanting to return to startups. I could not work full-time, but I applied and messaged the chief operating officer. I explained my Amazon and Uber background, my interest in logistics and the fact that I was completing university, then asked whether the company would consider somebody part-time. After several interviews, it agreed. The role began part-time and later became full-time. I worked there for about six months and loved it.\nThe lesson is that a job description may only approximate what a company needs. If it requests two years of experience, apply anyway. If it says full-time and you want part-time, apply anyway. Do not eliminate yourself; have the conversation. If the company likes you, it may create space. If it genuinely needs somebody full-time, that is also fine and is not a personal rejection. As you speak with more companies, you will discover and create opportunities that did not seem to exist.\nCold LinkedIn messages to startup founders and hiring managers are powerful, but there are other ways to stand out. Send a video résumé or pitch—perhaps through Loom—to add a personal dimension. Seek referrals, offer feedback on the company\u0026rsquo;s app, redesign its website, rewrite its copy or show how you would improve the product. You might write an article analysing how a company such as Eucalyptus grew through Instagram marketing. There are many ways to go beyond a résumé and cover letter. If you want to be a candidate pool of one rather than one of 500, do something different.\nJames: Combining those tactics with the personal brand we discussed earlier can be extremely powerful when applying for jobs.\nDan: A personal brand creates luck. I have been lucky many times, and much of my career success has depended on it, but a personal brand amplifies the number of fortunate opportunities that appear.\nI was active on LinkedIn as one of those slightly cringeworthy, career-minded teenagers. After winning an award in business consulting, I posted about it and received a message from somebody at Google who liked my profile and asked whether I wanted an internship. He moved to Uber a few months later. We lost touch, then reconnected when he was recruiting interns and had one remaining position.\nI said, “Sure, that\u0026rsquo;s awesome,” and ended up with a sales internship at Uber purely because someone had seen my LinkedIn content. That\u0026rsquo;s the point of a personal brand: it isn\u0026rsquo;t who you know, but who knows you and what they know you for. Your content creates that initial encounter and can lead to opportunities. It is essentially advertising for you.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. It\u0026rsquo;s exciting that everyone has this ability. There\u0026rsquo;s no barrier preventing you from creating your own luck, as in your story of people approaching you with job opportunities.\nDan: That matters from an equity, diversity, access and inclusion perspective. Traditional hiring in consulting, law and banking has often carried a perception of nepotism: that you need friends or contacts inside the firm. Online content is permissionless. Anybody can create it without knowing the right people. Consistently producing good work attracts people who care about the same subjects. We should help more young people, particularly those from underrepresented and disadvantaged backgrounds, use content creation to advance their careers, because it provides a substantial advantage.\nJames: Totally.\nWhat Dan Thinks Of Range # James: You have worked across marketing, consulting, sales and technology. How has that range of experience helped you reach your current position? Has it been valuable?\nDan: It has been essential. My younger self wanted to try everything, which seemed uncoordinated at the time. But I had an early thesis: I did not know what I wanted to do, so I should sample many things.\nThat helps in two ways. First, you discover what you like and dislike. I tried sales, marketing, design, operations, project management and front-end web development. You acquire varied skills, test different work and see the world from different perspectives. I eventually discovered that I most enjoyed product marketing, sales and content—work with a strong human element—rather than purely technical or numerical tasks.\nSecond, a generalist skill set is valuable if you eventually start something and take it from zero to one. It gives you a holistic problem-solving mindset. When addressing a problem at Earlywork or in my job, I consider the technical perspective, design because I have worked in design, the customer and marketing perspective, and the sales pitch because I have worked in sales.\nWhen you are early in your career and uncertain about your direction, collect varied data points. More experience gives you more lenses through which to view the same problem, which generally produces more robust and successful decisions.\nJames: David Epstein\u0026rsquo;s book Range, which I\u0026rsquo;ve discussed on the podcast, argues that breadth can support success and help people find the right career. That contrasts with the classic 10,000-hours principle, where becoming good at something means focusing on it exclusively for years. Your approach is to develop experience across several areas.\nThen, somehow, those experiences will interconnect and create an advantage because the diverse pieces line up. As you said, they give you a much better perspective and let you see things in a new way. It\u0026rsquo;s extremely powerful.\nDan: The specialist-versus-generalist question is interesting because there is a balance. People describe a T-shaped model: being competent across many areas and excellent in one or two. That\u0026rsquo;s broadly the model I follow. I\u0026rsquo;ve always liked Scott Adams—are you familiar with him, the creator of the Dilbert comic?\nJames: Scott Adams.\nDan: He is one of the best examples of a talent stack. Adams was funny, but not the world\u0026rsquo;s best comedian. He could draw, but was not the world\u0026rsquo;s best artist. He understood corporate offices, but was not the world\u0026rsquo;s best corporate employee. The intersection of those three above-average capabilities let him create a distinctive, humorous comic about office culture and achieve enormous success.\nI have not read Range, so forgive me if I misinterpret it. Exploring widely early is valuable, but you will find subjects you naturally gravitate towards, enjoy and find energising. The magic comes from identifying two, three or perhaps four of your strongest areas and finding their intersection.\nA strength may be a skill or knowledge of a field. Suppose you have worked extensively in sustainability and also love making TikTok videos. If you understand social media, short-form content and humour, you might create a sustainability TikTok channel.\nI constantly think about intersections. Everybody has a rich, complex life story, encounters different things and develops particular strengths. Combine those strengths into an offering nobody else can replicate because nobody else is you. James, you are the best at being your particular version of James—without insulting my other friends named James.\nPeople often struggle to identify their strengths. Ask which school subjects you most enjoyed and performed best in. Reflect on the activities that drew you as a child because you found them fun, exciting or interesting.\nIn year three, a friend and I both wanted to be creative. We saw funny, creative television advertisements and decided marketing and advertising were fascinating. At university, I initially studied finance and biology, but eventually returned to marketing. I rediscovered my childhood interest in telling the story of why something is a valuable solution for somebody.\nYou can also ask your five closest friends and family members what you do better than most people, which skills they associate with you and where they see weaknesses. Their answers will reveal patterns. Even if you lack self-awareness, people around you hold perceptions of your strengths. When a young person is uncertain about what to do, finding those early intuitive strengths and inclinations, then considering how to combine them, is powerful.\nJames: Skill stacking shows that you do not have to be the best at any single thing; somebody will almost always be better. Combining abilities helps you discover where you can thrive. Identifying strengths and weaknesses matters, but it can be difficult to assess yourself during ordinary life. Other people\u0026rsquo;s perspectives can help reveal whether you are funny, for example, or what else you do well.\nDan: The caveat is that other people\u0026rsquo;s opinions do not necessarily reflect what energises you internally. They may not have seen every interest. You might perform well in mathematics at school through hard work without enjoying it, so everybody calls you “the maths person”. Meanwhile, you may love drawing and painting, despite not yet being as skilled, because they give you passionate energy.\nTo be honest, I back passion and energy as a better long-term bet than simply getting good grades in something. They usually coincide: you tend to do well at the things you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about because you think about them often and that is how your brain operates. But the relationship isn\u0026rsquo;t always one-to-one.\nDans\u0026rsquo; Advice to New Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve learned so much from this fascinating conversation and have many takeaways. I have one final question, Dan. What advice would you give people graduating and starting their careers in 2022?\nDan: Regardless of whether they enter a startup or corporation, I would say: optimise for learning. By that I mean the learning you want, not simply accepting your company\u0026rsquo;s structured program. Identify what you want to learn and ask how you can learn it as quickly as possible. How can you practise, teach and engage with it? Perhaps you want to become an excellent public speaker, salesperson or developer. Be intentional about how you spend your time—not every second of the day, because you need breaks, but at work and on side projects. Ask what you are learning and how quickly, and create a clear framework and plan.\nThe other piece is to find people who care about similar things. That begins with an ongoing question: what problems would you like to work on ten or more years into your career? Perhaps it is climate change, nuclear warfare or artificial intelligence. There are many fascinating areas, and exploring them takes time and reading. One of the best things you can do is talk to other people, because co-learning is beautiful.\nFind capable people with good values who care about similar problems and are doing something about them. Learn from them and teach one another. Looking back at university, I still have friends who followed very different paths: cryptocurrency, law, video-game design and PhDs. The common threads are a strong core of values, curiosity and intentionality. Find people with whom you resonate, because those around you will have an outsized impact on how your career progresses.\nOne more thing: start creating content now. Find what you care about and make a newsletter, TikTok videos, social-media posts, art or anything else. The format doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter. Creating content will help you find people who care about similar things, and that will be a superpower for years to come.\nContact Dan # James: This episode has been fantastic and offered me so much value. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Dan. Before we let you go, where can people find and connect with you?\nDan: On Twitter, I\u0026rsquo;m @DanBrockwell—B-R-O-C-K-W-E-L-L—and I post there often. My baby and my love is Earlywork. The website is Earlywork.co, and our free career advice and resources about the future of work for young people are at Earlywork.substack.com. You can also find our Slack community through the Earlywork website. It has about 1,800 young people across Australia and New Zealand learning together about careers in product management, marketing, design, engineering, cryptocurrency and sustainability.\nWe\u0026rsquo;re trying to build the leading community for young people creating the careers of tomorrow. If you want to do exciting work, create your own things and make a positive impact, we\u0026rsquo;d love to have you in the community. I\u0026rsquo;ll see you there.\nJames: Thanks so much for coming on, Dan. We\u0026rsquo;ll see you soon.\nDan: Absolute pleasure, James. Thank you so much.\nOutro # James: Thanks for listening to this episode with Dan. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. I think there were so many nuggets of wisdom throughout this episode. If you want to get my takeaways, the three things that I learned from this episode, please go to Graduate Theory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode, straight to your inbox.\nThanks so much for listening again today, and we\u0026rsquo;re looking forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 15\n","date":"31 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/15-on-startups-corporate-and-the-importance-of-personal-branding-with-dan-brockwell/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 15\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Startups, Corporate and The Importance of Personal Branding with Dan Brockwell","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Image From Unsplash Recently, I started my podcast called Graduate Theory. I wanted to create a place to have meaningful conversations about having successful and fulfilling careers.\nI won\u0026rsquo;t go into the podcast too much here, but so far it\u0026rsquo;s been a great experience.\nThe focus for this post is on the TOOLS that I use to get things done.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been an iterative process so far, but after 16 recorded episodes, I think I have optimised my processes and have created something valuable.\nThrough my process, I\u0026rsquo;ve tried to use as few tools as possible, for maximum impact. I do pay for many of these tools, so keep that in mind as you go along.\nTools # The main tools I use are (click to go to section)\nNotion (Guest and episode planning)(Free) Calendly (Meeting setup)(Paid/Free) Riverside (Recording)(Paid) Descript (Editing)(Paid) GetProspect (Guest email finder)(Free/Paid) Ghost (Website and Newsletter)(Paid) Buzzsprout (Podcast Hosting)(Paid) While you\u0026rsquo;re here, consider joining my email list 👇 SubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit My Podcasting Workflow Below, I\u0026rsquo;ll outline the tools and how I use them.\nNotion (Free) # Notion is a very well known database and knowledge management tool. It\u0026rsquo;s easy to use and has heaps of customisation ability so it makes sense to use it for episode preparation and review.\nHere is what my main Notion page looks like\nMy Notion Page I have this page filtered so that once I complete an episode, it is not shown. This means I can only see episodes that are on the way or still need my efforts in some way. This also works as a kind of to-do list as I can very easily see which part of my pipeline need my attention the most.\nIn this table, I keep track of\nguest name when I contacted the guest any notes about the guest I should keep in mind the stage the guest is at (Should Contact, Contacted, Date Set, Recorded, Edited, Completed) the date of our episode the number of the episode and its release date This has worked very well in keeping track of who I have spoken to and how my guest pipeline is coming along.\nWhat is great about Notion is that each of these rows is its page. What this means is that inside each of these pages I can have further, more detailed notes from when I prepare and what I\u0026rsquo;m going to say in the episode.\nIn the page, I embed 2 pages 👇\nPreparation Page\nnotes about the guest from LinkedIn, other podcasts, social media intro for the guest that I say during the episode questions that I want to ask the guest Review Page\nthings we discussed during the podcast to put in the show notes my top 3 takeaways and notes for the newsletter All of these things together means I have a very simple workflow for guest relationship management, guest research and episode planning.\nI have also turned this into a template that you can download and copy 👇\nPODCAST MANAGEMENT NOTION TEMPLATE # Calendly (Paid/Free) # Calendly is my reliable scheduling tool. I contact the guest, send them to calendly and everything is taken care of.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;ve never heard of Calendly, it allows people to book an available time in my calendar.\nWhen booking the time, my guests get asked some questions to help me prepare for the interview.\nDo you know that this is a video interview? What is one thing you\u0026rsquo;d like to speak about during the episode? Is there anything you don\u0026rsquo;t want to speak about? What are your accomplishments so that I can write an intro for you? Would you like a small video after our interview? Do you know anyone that would be a future guest for the show? My workflow also\nsets the location of our call to Riverside reminds the guest 24 hours and 10 minutes before the call of where to go So far this has worked an absolute treat. It\u0026rsquo;s professional, efficient and lets me find out more information from my guest.\nI paid USD 144 for 1 year of Calendly. (This is 12 USD / month). You can do some of this on the free plan but you need a premium account for the reminders.\nRiverside (Paid) # Riverside is where I record my episodes. There are several advantages to using something like this over another free service like Zoom.\nRiverside is better than Zoom for podcasters that want quality episodes.\nAnother article on why riverside is the best podcasting platform.\nRiverside.fm enables local recording of lossless audio and 4K video tracks independent of internet connection.\nWhen recording with Riverside, I can edit with the local recordings of my guests audio and video. On Zoom I am taking a cloud-based version that has been compressed and is of less-good quality.\nWhen it comes to podcast recording I want my audio and video to be the highest quality possible. It\u0026rsquo;s a no-brainer for me!\nI use the 29 USD/m plan that gives me 15 hours of episodes per month.\nDescript (Paid) # Descript is something I first heard about from Oscar Trimboli on episode #5.\nIt is my highest value tool by far.\nDescript is a fantastic video editor. It creates a transcript of the video and then I can edit the video by editing the transcript.\nIt contains features like\ndirect upload to youtube and podcast hosting platforms filler word removal with 1 click studio sound to remove background noise and polish audio automatically level the volume of clips These features make it VERY easy for me to edit my podcast. My editing workflow is usually like the following 👇\nAdd raw clips to project in Descript Create my sequence (descript timeline) with my clips Auto level volume (1 click) Add studio sound (1 click) Transcribe and create my composition (descript editing) (1 click) Remove basic filler words (1 click) Watch through on x2 speed and edit parts that need fixing (1-2 hours) record intro and outro (30 mins) Publish to Youtube and Buzzsprout (1 click) Done!\nIt\u0026rsquo;s very simple to edit a podcast with descript and more certainly worth the approx $40 AUD p/m, I spend on it. Before Descript I was taking hours and hours to edit my episodes. Now it\u0026rsquo;s fast and fun.\nGet Prospect (Free) # When finding new guests for the show, some come through referrals, but some come through cold outreach. A great way of doing cold outreach is with Get Prospect.\nGet Prospect allows me to go onto a person\u0026rsquo;s LinkedIn and get their email address. Then I can use this address to send them an email and see if they would be interested in coming on the podcast.\nThis tool is free for a certain amount of uses (about 100) and then you\u0026rsquo;ll have to pay.\nAlternative\u0026rsquo;s to this that I have been trying out are https://www.emailchaser.io/ and https://rocketreach.co/.\nGhost (Paid) # Ghost is where I host my website and what allows me to send my newsletter. All of this can be done directly in Ghost which makes it a great tool.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve purchased a theme to make my site look great.\nI use Ghost for my weekly newsletter that comes out with each episode, it includes\nyoutube video of the episode Spotify link for episode guest intro guest contact information my episode takeaways links to things we discussed during the episode timestamps of topics The newsletter then remains on my site as a page that can be viewed anytime.\nAn alternative to this would have been to use Substack, which in hindsight would have been a smarter and cheaper choice given the size of my audience. Regardless, Ghost does a great job of hosting all my content and giving me good insights into my audience.\nBuzzsprout (Paid) # Buzzsprout is a podcast hosting tool. It is the place that allows you to host on Spotify/Apple and many others.\nAlternatives to this are https://transistor.fm/ which seems pretty good and https://anchor.fm/ which is a free hosting site provided by Spotify.\nBuzzsprout and Transistor are quite similar and I\u0026rsquo;d personally be fine going with either.\nAnchor is free because Spotify will dynamically insert ads into your episodes. People also raise concerns about the podcasting landscape becoming too dominated by a single incumbent in Spotify and thus will support paid alternatives like Buzzsprout and others.\nAnchor is probably a solid choice but I have chosen Buzzsprout at 18 USD / m for 6 hours of upload time.\nConclusion # There is my complete stack for running my podcast. It\u0026rsquo;s not fixed and will certainly change over time.\nRight now though, it\u0026rsquo;s working a treat.\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"26 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/my-podcasting-tools/","section":"Writing","summary":" Image From Unsplash Recently, I started my podcast called Graduate Theory. I wanted to create a place to have meaningful conversations about having successful and fulfilling careers.\nI won’t go into the podcast too much here, but so far it’s been a great experience.\n","title":"My Podcasting Tools","type":"posts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Ingrid Messner is a leadership expert with over twenty-five years’ experience. She was born in Germany and moved with her family to Sydney, in 2004. Passionate about the environment, she overcame extraordinary adversity in re-learning how to walk twice.\nHer latest book, Naturally Successful, is your guide to creating positive change for people and the planet\u0026hellip;and be well at the same time.\nLevel Up Your Career\n🤝 Connect with Ingrid # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ingridmessner/\nWebsite - https://www.ingridmessner.com/\nNaturally Successful - https://www.amazon.com.au/Naturally-Successful-Leaders-Influence-Positive/dp/198973720X/ref=sxts_rp_s1_0\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Nature is Important # Ingrid gave a great example of a study that she read. \u0026ldquo;The people in the prison where one part of the prison was looking out to a landscape, and one part was looking at concrete. The people looking out to the greenery were sick 25%, less often than those looking out to concrete.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important that we make time to get out and see some green during our days.\nContext is Key # When working, it\u0026rsquo;s important to know \u0026lsquo;why\u0026rsquo; you are doing what you are doing. It\u0026rsquo;s the same with leadership. Knowing what role your team plays and why your team is operating a certain way in the organisation is crucial to leading your team successfully.\nCheckpoints # I really liked what Ingrid said near the end of the interview about making check-ins with yourself. Make sure that you are on the path that you want to be on, and heading in the direction you would like. Too often we go along where we get taken and don\u0026rsquo;t make strong career choices.\nCheck-in with yourself.\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 Intro\n01:29 Ingrid On Re-learning to Walk Twice\n11:30 Using Bad Experiences as Fuel For Compassion\n22:10 What is Bad Leadership Advice\n26:33 Connection To Nature\n38:29 People that Inspire Ingrid\n42:57 Ingrid\u0026rsquo;s Advice for New Graduates\n49:09 Outro\n","date":"24 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/14-on-our-connection-to-nature-and-leadership-with-ingrid-messner/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Ingrid Messner is a leadership expert with over twenty-five years’ experience. She was born in Germany and moved with her family to Sydney, in 2004. Passionate about the environment, she overcame extraordinary adversity in re-learning how to walk twice.\n","title":"On Our Connection to Nature and Leadership with Ingrid Messner","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 14\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest discusses two major accidents, what she learned from them and how they have affected her life. You\u0026rsquo;ll hear about her book, Naturally Successful, the principal lessons from her 25 years as a leadership coach, and her insights into our connection with nature and how we can use it in daily life.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;d like episodes like this delivered to your inbox, please follow the link below and subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter for new episodes and my weekly insights. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a leadership expert with over 25 years of experience. She was born in Germany and moved with her family to Sydney in 2004. She is passionate about the environment and has overcome the extraordinary adversity of relearning how to walk twice. She now helps leaders manage their energy and develop greater influence and impact.\nPlease welcome Ingrid Messner. Welcome, Ingrid.\nIngrid: Thank you for having me, James.\nIngrid On Re-learning to Walk Twice # James: I\u0026rsquo;m excited to speak with you. Relearning to walk once is an enormous challenge, but you\u0026rsquo;ve done it twice. Could you explain how those situations unfolded and what you learned from them?\nIngrid: Learning to walk as a child seems easy: you fall, try again and do not think twice. You also do not remember it. As an adult in 2017, however, I broke my leg during an evening bushwalk in Sydney. The accident itself was not spectacular; I tripped on the track and fell badly. But I shattered the tibial plateau in my knee, which bears your weight, so there was no way I could get out unaided.\nThe group called emergency services. Although we were in Sydney, the location was remote, so the rescue involved an ambulance, the fire brigade and water police. What happened afterwards was interesting. The moment you enter the healthcare system, you become part of it. You must retain control of your own healing and recovery because many people will tell you what is best from their relatively narrow perspective.\nI needed surgery, and the surgeon did an excellent job before referring me to a physiotherapist. I was fortunate that the physiotherapist understood what returning to sport required, but the surgeon and physiotherapist were only two parts of the process. People describe it as “just a broken bone”, but it also affects your mental and emotional health and your social context. It took me 11 months to return to bushwalking—far longer than the usual six-week recovery people associate with a broken bone. For those 11 months, I could not participate in my community in the same way.\nOne night, I woke and wrote down every element of the recovery. There was the self, the other people involved, and the wider context—including finances, because recovery costs money even in Australia. Nobody explains all those areas, and no single navigator guides you through them. Looking at the list, I realised it resembled business. In business, you frequently face adversity or a challenge. You must look after yourself, assemble a team, deal with difficult stakeholders, manage the context and surrounding systems, and bring those three areas together. Relearning to walk is an arduous process, but business can be similar.\nThat recovery finished around 2018. At the beginning of 2019, a viral ear infection destroyed part of my balance system. Balance normally operates automatically: your eyes, ears, body, tendons, muscles and brain work together to keep you upright. The brain reconciles the signals from your right and left sides. If one ear sends a different signal, the brain becomes confused and goes into overdrive. It becomes exhausted, cannot think properly and, for a time, cannot keep you upright.\nYou must retrain the brain to disregard the unreliable signal and trust the rest of the body. It is a lived example of neuroplasticity. You become acutely aware of your body, your surroundings and your connection with the environment. Despite my love of nature, I initially could not go outside or connect with it because my brain was consumed by processing peripheral vision. I had to work very hard to expand that capacity again so I could connect with my environment, walk and resume everyday activities.\nThe process embodies everything we learn about habits. You complete one tiny exercise every day. You cannot force it; you simply repeat it. It is boring, but you create a small path in the brain that gradually becomes a freeway. That experience taught me humility and gratitude. It again showed that recovery depends on the right support systems—community, family and friends—as well as financial security so that being unable to work does not create additional stress. We often forget to value those things.\nWhen COVID arrived, I thought the pattern was repeating: another virus. Viruses have always existed, but we rarely paid attention to them, and their impact differs between people. That became a lesson for my leadership work. When we focus too heavily on completing a task or project, we can forget the people around us. Passion and urgency can also make us neglect our bodies and fail to practise enough self-care.\nThe same three questions recur: are you looking after yourself, who forms your support system and team, and what is happening in the surrounding context and environment? The broken leg and viral infection were very different experiences. I once assumed a virus would last a few weeks, but emotionally, a condition connected with the brain was much harder to manage than one connected with the leg.\nThe broken leg was visible, so everybody understood it; the balance condition was invisible. Many people in business, especially now, face invisible challenges. Leaders and colleagues often forget to ask what is happening internally. Yet a person\u0026rsquo;s internal world affects how effectively they work and lead. If they cannot explain what is happening, it becomes difficult to support their team or other people. When somebody is unwell and has a short fuse, anger may surface in a meeting because of their condition rather than anything the other person has done.\nBalance is essential, although it does not require everything to be present in equal measure at every moment. Much of the balance our bodies maintain is automatic, so we do not notice it.\nJames: The self is one of the three major areas in your book. As you\u0026rsquo;ve said, we must first look after ourselves so we can act from a more centred position.\nUsing Bad Experiences as Fuel For Compassion # James: As difficult as those experiences were, they must have strengthened your resilience, confidence and belief that you can overcome hard things. Do you reflect on them and use them as fuel in your career and coaching today?\nIngrid: They have led to greater curiosity and compassion. Any good coach is non-judgemental, but it goes beyond that. You become more aware that everybody does the best they can at a particular moment with the resources available to them.\nIf somebody lacks the necessary resources, their behaviour may seem strange. Rather than react, it is better to explore the situation with curiosity: what might be causing this, what is happening for them, and how can I create a safe experience in which they can discover their own solution? Even if another person faces a similar infection or knee injury, my recovery does not determine theirs. There may be common elements, but I do not possess their answer.\nYou quickly realise that you don\u0026rsquo;t have the answer. I have many years of experience, but I may still begin a coaching conversation without knowing what the problem is. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter; I need only to be present, hold the space and ask questions that help the person work it out. Business should operate in a similar way. When I first started work, I arrived with university, internship and early work experience and focused on the areas in which I was good or had expertise. All of that was true.\nAt some point, you must shift from being the expert towards being a coach, mentor and explorer. Nobody will ever have all the answers, but some people never loosen their grip on expertise as the basis of their identity. Expertise is important, but you must build on it with an open mind. Some junior people I coach believe they must know every answer to be accepted. Through discussion, we discover that this is not true.\nYou don\u0026rsquo;t have to possess all the answers; you need good questions, a genuine interest in the subject and the honesty to say, “I know this, but I don\u0026rsquo;t know that,” instead of making something up. You also need an environment that supports that culture. If a boss constantly pressures you to know every fact and figure and act as an expert, you will respond to that expectation, but it traps you in expert mode. That does not serve you when everything is uncertain.\nJames: You mentioned asking questions that help somebody move out of a rut, as well as using questions to understand a problem and work better with your team rather than expecting to know everything. Asking better questions is difficult. The right question—even in an interview—can produce an interesting answer, while a poor one may reveal little. Can you recall a situation where a well-timed question created a breakthrough?\nIngrid: The right question depends on context. You may ask one person a question at a certain moment and nothing happens. Ask the same person the same question at another time and they have an epiphany because they are ready for change. Finding the appropriate moment involves trial and error. Watch how the person responds verbally and through body language, as well as the content of their answer.\nAs a general rule, begin with open questions rather than those requiring yes-or-no answers, which close the conversation. An open question creates space to explore and discover options. Once you have found several possibilities, you can narrow them again, perhaps to a yes-or-no choice between options A and B. A person may initially see in only one direction. Asking what lies on the other side can reveal ten more options. Figuratively, you help them look around and discover what is available.\nA good question also has the right intention: it creates an experience in which the other person recognises what matters to them, rather than merely giving you an explanation. Ask whether the answer serves you or serves them. In a podcast, ask whether it serves the audience. If it does, it is a great question.\nWe must also remember to be kind to ourselves and the people around us. Everybody will get something wrong. We need to accept our mistakes, move on and show kindness when somebody else makes one. Rather than asking, “Why did you mess this up?”, ask, “What caused this, and what can we both learn from it?” That can strengthen the relationship because the other person feels heard, understood and acknowledged. You explore the cause of the conflict or problem together, which can be particularly useful in a project environment. Good questions are both an art and a science.\nJames: I absolutely agree with that.\nWhat is Bad Leadership Advice # James: Much of your coaching focuses on helping people lead better. What leadership advice do you consider bad? Is there anything you would tell leaders not to do?\nIngrid: Ignoring context. People often say a leader should ask rather than tell because telling is hierarchical. That style prevailed historically and remains important in the military or during conflict for good reasons, but it is not useful in every situation. When judging a leadership style, we can easily forget to ask about the context in which it occurred. Some people call this situational or adaptive leadership, but the central point is that leadership never happens in a vacuum.\nSomething preceded the present situation, and it will probably have consequences in the future. Leadership development that focuses only on the immediate moment, the individual and perhaps their team, without considering everything around them, is unlikely to be effective. It wastes training money because it does not connect the lesson to the real-world context in which it must be applied.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s important. As a new person in an organisation, you need to connect what you\u0026rsquo;re doing with why the organisation wants it done and understand where your work fits within the wider group.\nThe same principle applies when you lead a team: understand how your team fits into the organisation\u0026rsquo;s wider jigsaw rather than treating it as though it exists in a vacuum.\nIngrid: We sometimes describe this as working in silos. A large organisation may have multiple silos; in a smaller one, separation may appear as conflict between teams or individuals. The problem is anything that separates rather than connects each part to the whole.\nDirective leadership has its place. In an absolute, time-critical emergency, you may use a different leadership style for good reasons. But even while COVID has left many people stressed, most situations do not justify an emergency leadership style, and it does not produce a solution. Some fields genuinely require it, but most of us, including the listeners, do not work in them.\nJames: That returns to kindness: treat everybody with respect, even under pressure. A leader may need to absorb some of the surrounding difficulty, shelter the team and continue to treat them respectfully.\nConnection To Nature # James: Your first accident happened during a bushwalk, and nature is also part of Naturally Successful. That connection can be lost when people spend all day in an office or working from home. When did you first begin exploring our connection with nature?\nIngrid: I have always loved biology and geography. For me, geography meant travelling and discovering different lands, countries and people. When I first came to Australia in 2000, we toured Kakadu National Park with an Aboriginal ranger who explained the meanings, stories and uses associated with one type of tree.\nI looked at that tree and realised I had never seen one in the same way, with all its connections and everything around it. Trees suddenly had an entirely different meaning. That made me curious to explore more Indigenous perspectives. Later, I undertook many nature-meditation retreats, where you spend several consecutive days alone outdoors.\nWhen you remain in one place rather than moving through it on a bushwalk, you notice how everything around you is connected in a small ecosystem and how you fit within it. You think more carefully about the water you drink, where your food was grown and the oxygen you breathe. Trees and other plants provide oxygen, and you contribute to a circular exchange.\nThat is the visual and physical level. Through time outdoors with Indigenous people, I also encountered the understanding that everything is family. You are not alone: plants and animals are your relations, connected to a specific area of land. Everything has its place, rules and principles.\nThe underlying truth became clear to me, and it is not complicated: healthy people need a healthy planet. We cannot live, function and perform well at work if our bodies are unwell. I recently saw headlines about microplastic pollution in our air, food and water. It consequently enters our bodies, and nobody can yet say exactly what it will do. That connection was largely absent from mainstream discussion until a few years ago. Seeing it on the front page of a mainstream newspaper is encouraging, because we cannot change something until we become aware of it.\nI am hopeful that more people are becoming aware. We have the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. If every business incorporated them into its ordinary strategy, and every person, leader and project included at least one relevant element, it could create a major shift. Without a healthy natural world, there can be no healthy humans—not in the way we live today.\nJames: For somebody working nine to five in an office or at home, what practical steps could strengthen their connection with nature, improve their health or involve them in sustainability initiatives?\nIngrid: The answer differs for each person because our childhood experiences and current opportunities vary. Most cities do not encourage a genuine connection with nature. Sometimes, however, it is enough to find a favourite place in a park where you can sit for a few minutes each day or simply walk through. Instead of listening to your phone or a podcast, immerse yourself in that immediate environment. Anything you watch or hear from somewhere else, even recorded nature sounds, takes you into a different space.\nNotice what is happening around you. Even in a small park, sitting on a lawn, touching the grass and being fully present can have a healing effect. Research shows that a view of greenery, a natural landscape or natural light benefits people in apartments and offices compared with a view of another concrete building or wall. One prison study compared people whose windows faced a landscape with those facing concrete. Those who could see greenery were about 24 or 25 per cent less likely to become ill.\nJames: Wow. That\u0026rsquo;s amazing.\nIngrid: In the simplest version, you could use a green screensaver on your computer; even that can help. I also keep natural objects on my desk. This rock, for example, was given to me at a nature event and comes from Afghanistan. It has a fantastic colour, and every time I look at it, I remember receiving it. Memories and thoughts are one way we connect with nature. I also have a little stick, and from time to time I touch these objects and remember the experiences associated with them.\nThat helps because it feeds our innate need to connect with nature. The term is “biophilia”, which means that humans need a connection with nature. I think of it as almost a survival instinct—although that is my description, not a scientific label. If you are stuck in a hotel room whose window doesn\u0026rsquo;t open, with no fresh air or greenery, you can become quite depressed and your mental health will suffer. I think that happened to many people in hotel quarantine.\nJames: Hotel quarantine was difficult. Even simple greenery can help: your background is green, and keeping plants in a room brings nature into your routine. I was also surprised by the prison study.\nIngrid: I found that example in Johann Hari\u0026rsquo;s book Lost Connections, which investigates the underlying causes of depression. Many people in business, including senior executives, experience depression and high levels of anxiety. Hari identifies disconnection from nature as one cause among several. Scientific research now supports something Indigenous peoples understood thousands of years ago. If we respectfully combine that knowledge with what is possible in today\u0026rsquo;s environment, we will all be better off.\nJames: Other research also shows the value of going outside, getting sunlight and exercising. A walk through the nearest park can combine all those benefits and support both mental and physical health. Thank you for raising this. Lost Connections has been on my reading list for some time.\nPeople that Inspire Ingrid # James: Who inspires you? Are there people in your network or elsewhere who model good leadership, or whose work young graduates should explore?\nIngrid: Different people come to mind for different reasons. I do not have a single hero; I admire particular qualities in different people. One example is Atlassian co-founder Mike Cannon-Brookes, who uses his money and profile to bring climate change to the forefront.\nFrom what I have read as an outsider, Atlassian appears to have a people-focused culture, although I have no internal knowledge to confirm it. Cannon-Brookes\u0026rsquo;s environmental work also appears grounded in his values. His media profile gives him influence at a systems level. For example, he challenged Elon Musk on Twitter over the battery storage project in South Australia, and Musk responded when he might not have responded to many others.\nI think that is a good example of thinking outside the box while remaining true to your values and using your voice wherever you can. As a young person in business, when you see something that matters to you and your values and consider it a moral issue, start a conversation with more senior people. If you do so respectfully and from an informed position, you can have considerable influence.\nIngrid: Do not underestimate your influence. Another example is Paul Hawken and Project Drawdown, which brought scientists together to compile solutions to climate change using existing technologies and other methods in one book. I regard him as a global leader.\nThere are also many approachable people in the B Corp community and in small companies founded around purpose and sustainability. That is a good place to start if you want to work in this area, although large corporations in Australia and around the world also contain good leaders across many fields. You are not limited to one sector.\nWho Gives A Crap is another example. Its toilet paper became particularly well known during COVID, but the way the company began was brilliant. Its early crowdfunding campaign videos are fascinating. I have supported the company from the start and watched it grow into a subscription service for toilet paper, tissues and paper towels while donating millions to toilets and sanitation facilities. There are many inspiring people.\nIngrid\u0026rsquo;s Advice for New Graduates # James: What advice would you give young people starting their careers in 2022?\nIngrid: I feel for anybody beginning a career in 2022, given everything happening, although it may also offer an advantage. Starting a career is usually a rite of passage following certain earlier experiences, some of which COVID prevented. It may help to focus on further developing yourself and your self-awareness through meditation, journalling, yoga or conversations with other people. Gradually, you become more aware of who you are and what you want.\nThe world in 2022, and probably next year as well, is uncertain and complex. It is difficult to define a long-term vision. It may be enough to identify five things you want to learn over the next year, along with your passions and purpose, then ask how to combine them and find the right organisation in which to work.\nProceed step by step and check throughout the year whether you still want the same thing. Other people may gradually push you towards something you never anticipated until you begin to lose part of yourself. As you learn about yourself, schedule regular checkpoints—perhaps monthly or quarterly—to ask whether this is truly what you want and what should come next. Work in shorter periods. Some people have a long-term vision, which is excellent provided they hold it lightly, accepting that the route may involve many detours.\nHold the goal like a beacon or light you can follow, while accepting that the route may not be straight. You may take detours and discover that one is actually better. At a checkpoint, you may realise you now know enough about yourself to change your goal, and that is fine. Long-term visions and goals are valuable only if you hold them lightly.\nSome people can pursue a fixed long-term vision brilliantly. For the majority, however, I think greater flexibility better supports emotional and mental health.\nIf leaders tell you it is okay to change and not know, you can genuinely admit uncertainty, take a breath and explore what is around you. Make a decision, try it as an experiment, learn from it and take the next step. You cannot possibly know everything, and that is okay.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s very true. I like your suggestion of regular check-ins to reflect on where you are, where you\u0026rsquo;ve been and where you want to go. You can ask whether your current direction is still one you want to pursue and take time to consider the alternatives. Otherwise, it is easy to drift along one path without stopping to think. That\u0026rsquo;s a great point.\nIngrid: One last recommendation: Johann Hari has written another book called Stolen Focus, which I think everyone should read, especially younger people who use social media heavily. It complicates what we have just discussed by explaining how large media companies such as Facebook track and manipulate behaviour to steal your attention. Individual willpower can counter that only to a point; something broader must change. The first step is awareness. I\u0026rsquo;m not saying that social media is inherently bad, but you should recognise that it can slowly steer you in a direction without you noticing the manipulation. When you know what you truly want and can temporarily block out what is happening around you, you are more likely to remain happy and healthy. I think the book is excellent.\nJames: It came out only recently and is on my reading list. I\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking about it for a while and know he spent a long time writing it, so I\u0026rsquo;m excited to get my hands on it.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for our chat today, Ingrid. It was fascinating to hear your story, including your recoveries and this idea of connecting with nature. I think it is fundamental today. Thanks so much for coming on the show.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you\u0026rsquo;d like my takeaways from the podcast, follow the link in the description to GraduateTheory.com and subscribe to the newsletter to receive my top three takeaways from each episode. You can also subscribe on whichever platform you\u0026rsquo;re using.\nI hope you enjoyed this episode, and I look forward to seeing you next time.\n← Back to episode 14\n","date":"24 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/14-on-our-connection-to-nature-and-leadership-with-ingrid-messner/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 14\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Our Connection To Nature and Leadership with Ingrid Messner","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This episode is a compilation of three interviews I did with friends of mine from University.\nCooper Harrod is an Associate at Macquarie Group.\nOscar Harper is a Software Engineer at Atlassian.\nAlex Von Der Borch is a Graduate Analyst at Deloitte and former president of 180 Degrees Consulting in Adelaide.\nDuring each part of this episode, we speak about different parts of their career journeys.\nSkip below to the Important Timestamps to find the parts that most interest you.\nImportant timestamps # 03:28 Cooper Harrod on Moving Interstate for work\n09:41 Oscar Harper on the SWE Interview\n27:14 Alexander Von Der Borch on what makes a good consultant\nLevel Up Your Career\n🤝 Connect With The Guests # Cooper Harrod - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cooper-harrod/\nOscar Harper - https://www.linkedin.com/in/oscar-harper-adelaide/\nAlex Von Der Borch - https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-von-der-borch/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # Risk and Reward # Cooper\u0026rsquo;s experience is much like my own. Moving interstate, starting a new job and moving out of home all at the same time can be very challenging. However, with challenges comes growth and we both agreed that we have learnt so much through the process.\nI really liked his analogy of shooting shots. Moving interstate is an opportunity that you don\u0026rsquo;t get very often. While you\u0026rsquo;re young is the best time to take these kinds of risks. For Cooper and myself, it\u0026rsquo;s certainly been very rewarding.\nFailure as Fuel # Oscar gave great insight into his software engineering interview experience. These interviews are notoriously difficult, Oscar explained his process for studying and how he managed to get into his dream company.\nWhat I liked about this part was how Oscar reacted to failure. He was turned away when applying for an internship and instead of being down on himself, he used his near miss as fuel for getting a graduate job.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s an inspiration for us all that even though we may face setbacks, we can use these as momentum to get up and try again rather than giving up.\nTake Your Time # That was Alex\u0026rsquo;s advice for new graduates. He is a great example of someone that has taken things slow.\nSometimes we can get caught in trying to be as successful as possible as early as possible. What is important is to realise that we are all on our own path and that comparing ourselves to others is a fool\u0026rsquo;s game.\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 On Moving Interstate, SWE Interviews and Traits of Great Consultants\n03:28 Cooper Harrod\n03:52 Cooper On Moving Interstate\n08:12 Cooper\u0026rsquo;s Favourite Quote\n09:41 Oscar Harper\n11:06 Oscar Harper\n12:33 Oscar on the SWE Interview\n27:14 Alexander Von Der Borch\n28:26 Alex on 180 DC\n29:35 Alex on Being a Great Consultant\n34:24 Alex\u0026rsquo;s Career Advice\n35:58 Outro\n","date":"17 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/13-on-moving-interstate-swe-interviews-and-traits-of-great-consultants/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → This episode is a compilation of three interviews I did with friends of mine from University.\n","title":"On Moving Interstate, SWE Interviews and Traits of Great Consultants","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 13\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntroduction # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a little different from normal. Usually, I sit down with one person and hear about the things they have achieved. When I first started recording the podcast, however, I interviewed three friends about their careers: Cooper Harrod, Oscar Harper and Alex von der Borch.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve split the episode into three sections and selected the best parts of those interviews. Not every section will resonate with everyone, so use the timestamps in the episode description if you would like to move between them.\nThe first section is with Cooper Harrod, a graduate at Macquarie Group who moved from Adelaide to Sydney for work. I wanted to hear how he handled moving interstate and what he learned from it. Many graduates now move between cities and states, so his perspective is valuable.\nThe second section is with Oscar Harper, a software engineer at Atlassian who also moved to Sydney. We discuss the software-engineering interview: how he prepared, what the process involved and what he would recommend to somebody doing it now. These interviews are unusually demanding and can require considerable preparation, especially at highly competitive companies.\nThe third section is with Alex von der Borch, a graduate analyst at Deloitte in Adelaide and a former president of 180 Degrees Consulting. Alex shares what he learned about the qualities of a strong consultant and how to build a good career.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve combined those conversations into one episode. Please skip around if you prefer, and enjoy.\nCooper Harrod on Moving Interstate for Work # James: Cooper moved from Adelaide to Sydney to begin work. In this part of the interview, we discuss that move and his experience of relocating interstate for a job.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re from Adelaide, but you moved to Sydney to work at Macquarie. What led you to apply for interstate roles? Was moving something you had always wanted to do, or did the opportunity emerge during your job search?\nCooper: I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t say I had always been keen to move interstate for work. When I applied for internships and graduate programs, though, I noticed there weren\u0026rsquo;t many opportunities in Adelaide that interested me. The financial industry doesn\u0026rsquo;t have as large a presence there, so looking in Sydney or Melbourne was more a matter of necessity.\nBefore COVID, I had big plans to work in different places and experience living in other countries. Working in New York or London would be amazing, and it is still something I would like to do one day. The environment is different at the moment, particularly after a three-month lockdown, but moving interstate was an opportunity that happened to work out.\nJames: That was my experience as well. Almost none of my top choices were in Adelaide. Apart from consulting firms such as the Big Four, nearly every place I applied to was interstate. I had also studied overseas during university, which made me more confident about moving.\nWere you nervous? Moving out of home, relocating interstate and starting a new job at the same time is a major change. What was that experience like?\nCooper: It was definitely a nervous and difficult time. I moved in February, and it helped enormously that I was starting a graduate program. Many other people were going through the same experience and also knew nobody in Sydney, so we could connect and understand what each other was dealing with.\nIt was also exciting because Sydney has a different atmosphere from Adelaide. Some of the other graduates thought I came from a country town in the Australian outback. The move was challenging, especially during lockdown, but it helped to have people around me in the same situation. That is a definite benefit of joining a graduate program.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;ve now been there for more than six months. Would you recommend moving interstate for work to somebody who is still at university?\nCooper: It depends on the person\u0026rsquo;s circumstances, but I have grown through the experience. I had to become more independent because I lived alone and didn\u0026rsquo;t know anyone outside work. That forced me to grow as a person.\nI would recommend it, provided you understand there will be hard times and sacrifices. Overall, it has been worthwhile.\nJames: Before the interview, I also asked for your favourite quote. What did you choose?\nCooper: In my family home, we had a poster of Michael Jordan taking a shot. It said, \u0026ldquo;You miss 100 per cent of the shots you never take.\u0026rdquo; As a child, I looked at it and thought it made no sense: if you don\u0026rsquo;t shoot, you cannot miss.\nMy dad explained that it means much more than that. If you don\u0026rsquo;t give yourself the opportunity to succeed, you are destined to fail. That idea applies in many situations. I considered it when deciding whether to move to Sydney for work. If I hadn\u0026rsquo;t done it, I would always have wondered what might have happened and whether I could have succeeded.\nJames: It was great to hear Cooper\u0026rsquo;s experience because it closely aligned with mine. Like Cooper, I moved out of home, began work and relocated interstate simultaneously. That is daunting, particularly after two years of a pandemic and lockdowns, but it is also character-building. I\u0026rsquo;m glad I did it, and I know Cooper is too.\nMoving interstate may be easier now because remote work gives us more flexibility, while also making relocation less necessary. It will be interesting to see where that leads. My lesson is not to hold yourself back from opportunities simply because they aren\u0026rsquo;t where you currently live. Exploring what is available and experiencing another place can be an excellent opportunity while you are young and able to move.\nOscar Harper on Software-Engineering Interviews # James: Oscar is a software engineer at Atlassian. In this section, we discuss his interview process and what he recommends to people preparing for software-engineering interviews.\nThese interviews have become quite standardised across many companies. Candidates are asked common programming and problem-solving questions, and the preparation can be significant. There are entire websites and books devoted to these interviews. We discuss both the technical questions and the behavioural or soft-skill component of Oscar\u0026rsquo;s Atlassian interview.\nWhen you applied for internships at the end of your third year, how did you prepare, and what was that year like?\nOscar: I first interviewed with Atlassian at the end of my second year, before I completed another internship. I reached the final round but didn\u0026rsquo;t receive an offer. I was underprepared, and the process then required candidates to present a project. After only two years at university, I didn\u0026rsquo;t have much to present beyond small university projects. I didn\u0026rsquo;t yet have enough experience or a substantial enough project to show that I was worth hiring.\nWhen they rejected me, I understood. The interviewers gave me good feedback, and I felt they had seen through the weaknesses in my presentation. I took another internship, gained much more experience and spent roughly eight hours each week working on a project.\nAfter being rejected for the internship, I applied again for a graduate role. This time, I understood the process and knew what to prepare for. Companies don\u0026rsquo;t usually spring a major presentation on you without warning; they give some guidance unless the assessment is simply a set of quiz or coding questions. When they do provide guidance, prepare as thoroughly as you can.\nMy university work suffered while I prepared because I completed so many coding questions and created a detailed PowerPoint presentation for my project. I included code snippets, diagrams and anything else that might help, even though they hadn\u0026rsquo;t required that level of work. I was determined not to let the opportunity pass again. I had already been fortunate enough to reach the final stage once, so I used that experience. The questions were different, of course, but I did everything I could to prepare.\nJames: Software-engineering interviews are extensively studied. There are countless questions, websites and other resources. What strategy did you use?\nOscar: People often think of software interviewing as Google interviewing. Google has extremely difficult interviews because so many people apply and it wants to hire the best people it can. I never even received a first interview from Google, including after my internship.\nThe best approach is to understand the company and the kinds of interviews it runs. You can often find an alumnus or somebody at that company on LinkedIn and ask for an overview of the process. That gives you more preparation time. Otherwise, you may submit your résumé knowing nothing, receive an interview and discover that the entire process will finish in two weeks.\nMost people enjoy talking about their work, so you can usually find somebody willing to explain what is coming: perhaps a behavioural phone interview, followed by a whiteboard interview and another technical stage. There are also many books and articles that explain these processes.\nFor the coding component, practise questions on sites such as LeetCode, HackerRank or Topcoder. You can never be too prepared.\nYou also need to prepare for behavioural questions. In some ways, I find them harder than coding questions. With a coding problem, you either know how to solve it or you don\u0026rsquo;t, although you can still have a bad day. With a behavioural question, you can always give an answer, but it may not be a good one.\nLearn a structure such as STAR—situation, task, action and result—and prepare a range of genuine examples. Interviewers are trained to recognise that structure. If every answer returns to the same group project, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t look good.\nInterviewers have often heard hundreds of answers and understand almost every university group-project dynamic. There is no reason to exaggerate. Your résumé may describe impressive work, but the interviewer wants to know what you actually achieved and what the outcome was.\nCandidates often describe a project and conflict resolution, then forget the result. The interviewer has to ask, \u0026ldquo;How did it turn out?\u0026rdquo; The outcome doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be positive. What matters is showing that you evaluated it, learned from it and could make a better decision next time. That is the behavioural learning interviewers want to see.\nJames: When you practised on HackerRank, LeetCode or another platform, did you build a curriculum, or did you simply complete as many questions as possible?\nOscar: I was fortunate because one of my university courses required us to complete about three Topcoder problems each week. We chose from a set of questions with different difficulty levels. Across ten or 12 weeks, I completed at least 30 and deliberately selected the harder ones to get more value from the course.\nThat gave me a strong foundation and exposure to common algorithms. You don\u0026rsquo;t need to memorise everything immediately, but it helps to recognise ideas such as shortest-path algorithms.\nWithout that course, I would plan around the data structures and techniques I needed to learn: maps, sets, strings, arrays, graphs and trees, as well as approaches such as dynamic programming. Sites such as HackerRank categorise problems by data structure or algorithm, so you can select an area and work through relevant questions. That gives you experience developing solutions with each tool.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;ve completed several interviews, and your colleagues have been through similar processes. What common mistakes do candidates make in either the technical or behavioural stages, and how can they avoid them?\nOscar: For coding interviews, expectations depend on the company. An interviewer doesn\u0026rsquo;t only want the final answer because that reveals little about how you work in a team, interpret requirements or approach a task. In real work, code merely functioning doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean it is the best solution.\nAsk what the interviewer cares about. For example, do meaningful variable names matter in this exercise? If they don\u0026rsquo;t, you can move quickly. If they do, avoid names such as a and b. Meaningful names cost almost no time, help you understand your own work and make the code easier for the interviewer to follow. They are also good practice for a real codebase, where meaningless names quickly become a problem.\nThe best approach also depends on the format. If the interviewer plans several rapid-fire questions, speed may matter. If there is one question with extensions added over time, pause before writing code. Think about the broad solution, the data structures you will use and its likely performance.\nInterviewers value seeing that foresight and hearing you evaluate alternatives. Candidates often choose the first solution that comes to mind and immediately implement it. The interviewer then cannot tell whether they evaluated three options or simply got lucky.\nTalk through your reasoning: \u0026ldquo;I could solve it this way, but it would be inefficient. I could use this other approach, but it may fail under these conditions. I think this third option is best.\u0026rdquo; Decision-making is a valuable software-development skill. The goal isn\u0026rsquo;t merely to make the code work.\nJames: Oscar\u0026rsquo;s experience shows how much preparation can go into a programming interview. His university grades fell while he concentrated on the coding stage, which illustrates the effort sometimes required to reach a company such as Atlassian.\nI also found his focus on softer skills interesting. Programmers may focus mainly on technical ability, but communication, structured behavioural answers and explaining decisions are equally important.\nAlex von der Borch on the Traits of Great Consultants # James: Alex is a friend from Adelaide and a former president of 180 Degrees Consulting. The organisation brings university students together to provide pro bono consulting for charities and not-for-profits. It gives students exposure to consulting while helping community organisations, creating value for both sides.\nI met Alex through 180. He was involved for several years and met many people through the organisation, which taught him what it takes to become a strong consultant. He is now a graduate analyst at Deloitte in Adelaide. We discuss the attributes and characteristics he believes matter in consulting and how people can develop them.\nFor listeners who don\u0026rsquo;t know 180 Degrees Consulting, can you explain what it does?\nAlex: 180 Degrees Consulting is a global, student-led volunteer consulting organisation run through universities. It brings together strong student talent: our branch had an acceptance rate of about 20 per cent, while only around 25 per cent of proposed branches were accepted.\nIt connects students who want hands-on client experience with not-for-profits that need inexpensive or pro bono advice to become more efficient and effective. Students gain experience by helping charities and develop social-impact leadership, so they enter the workforce conscious of their impact on the community rather than simply turning up to a job.\nJames: Through university and 180, you\u0026rsquo;ve worked with many graduates. Which traits distinguish people who succeed in that environment from those who struggle?\nAlex: It depends on how you define success. Google defines it as accomplishing an aim or purpose, while Cambridge describes it as achieving desired results. Those are broad definitions. We often attach money and socioeconomic status to success—the classic example is becoming a partner at a Big Four firm—but the real definition depends on each person\u0026rsquo;s aim.\nThat affects whether somebody appears to be a strong or weak consultant. Their personal definition of success may not be becoming an excellent consultant; it may be spending more time with family or earning better grades. Somebody who wasn\u0026rsquo;t a high performer at 180 may simply have focused on something else. They were not necessarily bad at what they did; they may not have had enough time to give 180.\nGraduates have to decide, using the best information available, where to spend their time. Parkinson\u0026rsquo;s law says that work expands to fill the time available for its completion. If you give yourself a week for an assignment, it will take a week. If you allocate only an hour to 180, the quality of what you achieve in that hour may vary.\nThe strong performers who did apply themselves wanted to learn. Rather than stagnating, they asked questions and requested feedback about how to improve, which tools to use and what to research in their spare time. We could then guide them towards useful organisations and resources.\nThey also worked effectively with people from different backgrounds. A law student and a business student may think differently, while an arts student and an engineering student may have almost opposite balances of technical and interpersonal skills. Working productively across those differences sets people apart.\nIf you cannot work in a team, it is difficult to progress into leadership. This is particularly true in a volunteer organisation, where everybody contributes in their spare time. You cannot manage everything yourself. As president, I was fortunate to have a good team supporting me. Everybody had different responsibilities, and my job was to help them perform better rather than trying to do everything myself.\nProfessionalism also matters. Dress appropriately while retaining your personal style. Many organisations are removing rigid dress codes, and Deloitte has introduced flexible working hours. Provided your work is completed and you don\u0026rsquo;t leave too much for the rest of your team, you can choose hours that suit you. Some people begin at six and finish at three to spend time with their children after school. Others don\u0026rsquo;t function well in the morning, so they begin at ten and finish later.\nYou should still be well presented and understand the context. Don\u0026rsquo;t arrive in a T-shirt unless your client normally wears T-shirts. Finally, strong consultants enjoy working with clients and solving problems. It returns to the familiar idea that if you do what you love, you will never work a day in your life.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;ve achieved a great deal. What single piece of advice would you give somebody starting university next year?\nAlex: You and I both spent about five years at university. One of the biggest things I\u0026rsquo;ve learned is that a career may involve 40, 50 or even 60 years of work, but discussions about success often leave that out. There is considerable pressure to achieve conventional markers such as status and wealth at a very young age.\nI\u0026rsquo;m 24 and only three months into my graduate role. I still feel young in the context of an entire career and have so much left to learn.\nMy advice is to take your time. There is no rush. If you find a good role, workplace or organisation that suits you before you turn 30, that is still a major achievement. Some people never find work they truly enjoy. Take the time to develop skills and be easy on yourself, because you have another 40 or 50 years to work. Enjoy your twenties while you can.\nOutro # James: Thank you for listening to episode 13 of Graduate Theory. I hope you enjoyed this different format and the lessons from Cooper, Oscar and Alex. Next week, we\u0026rsquo;ll return to the normal format with another interview.\nIf you would like Graduate Theory episodes and my takeaways delivered to your inbox, please consider subscribing to the newsletter. Thanks again for listening, and I look forward to seeing you next week.\n← Back to episode 13\n","date":"17 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/13-on-moving-interstate-swe-interviews-and-traits-of-great-consultants/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 13\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Moving Interstate, SWE Interviews and Traits of Great Consultants","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Adam Ashton is an account manager by day and a co-host of the What You Will Learn podcast. With 5M+ downloads, the podcast is all about summarising the best lessons from books and interviewing some of the best authors in the world. In 2021 both hosts released their book, “The Shit They Never Taught You”, compiling the lessons the hosts have learnt from their reading.\nLevel Up Your Career\n🤝 Connect With Adam # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamashton1/\nWhat You Will Learn (Podcast) - https://www.whatyouwilllearn.com/\nThe Shit They Never Taught You (Book) - https://www.whatyouwilllearn.com/theshit/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # The Importance of Range # A key concept from our chat was the best way to maximise your chance of career success. We looked at the two main schools of thought, 10,000 hours and Range.\nThe 10,000 hours camp is one that is most popular. It\u0026rsquo;s the idea that to get world class at something, you need to spend 10,000 hours doing it.\nThe contrasting idea is one of \u0026ldquo;Range\u0026rdquo;. This theory suggests that the way to success is by trying many different, unrelated fields. Over time, the connections between these unrelated fields will lead to extraordinary results.\nAdam and I are both fans of Range, and see it as a great way to grow your career. Get experience in many areas, and try to find where the crossovers lie so you can add you unique pieces of insight.\nThe 3 C\u0026rsquo;s # Most of us spend a lot of our day consuming content, whether it\u0026rsquo;s something like Netflix or even something like a book or a course.\nWhile learning in this way is good and sometimes necessary, it\u0026rsquo;s an age-old notion that learning comes not from watching, but from doing. With this in mind, it\u0026rsquo;s clear that becoming a creator would actually help you to learn a lot more.\nAdam shared a great tip on becoming a creator. He says there are 3 levels,\nConsumer\nCurator\nCreator\nWhat I took from this is that you don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily need to go straight from consuming something to creating your own, you can first become a curator.\nThis is what Adam has done with his podcast, \u0026ldquo;What You Will Learn\u0026rdquo;. They first started reading (Consuming) books, then sharing their thoughts and lessons (Curating) and now after 5 years of podcasting, they\u0026rsquo;ve released their own book (Creating).\nThe Worst-Case Scenario # Adam shared a great tip on deciding if a project or side-hustle is worthwhile.\n\u0026ldquo;If this project went nowhere, would it still be valuable?\u0026rdquo;\nThe example Adam gave was when he was starting to podcast. Even though no one was listening, he was gaining valuable skills in public speaking and communication. Even if it remained that way, it was a win.\n💭 Things Discussed # ANZ\nTony Robbins\nRange - David Epstein\nOriginals - Adam Grant\nOutliers - Malcolm Gladwell\nPeak - Anders Ericson\nThe Sunny Nihilist - by Wendy Syfret\nFour Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman\n📝 Show Notes # 00:00 Intro\n01:46 Adam\u0026rsquo;s Graduate Experience\n04:41 Comparing Yourself at the 10 Year Reunion\n10:38 Leaving a Graduate Role\n12:37 Tony Robbins and Career Exploration\n14:26 The Learning and Doing Balance\n16:59 Consumption, Curation and Creation\n18:45 The Start of What You Will Learn\n25:22 Cautions on Working on Side Projects While at Work\n35:05 Favourite lessons from The Shit They Never Taught You\n36:24 Range and Mastery\n42:37 What Drives Adam to be Successful\n48:49 How To Start Reading\n51:40 Adam\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates\n55:51 Outro\n","date":"10 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/12-on-books-and-the-importance-of-range-with-adam-ashton/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Adam Ashton is an account manager by day and a co-host of the What You Will Learn podcast. With 5M+ downloads, the podcast is all about summarising the best lessons from books and interviewing some of the best authors in the world. In 2021 both hosts released their book, “The Shit They Never Taught You”, compiling the lessons the hosts have learnt from their reading.\n","title":"On Books and the Importance of Range with Adam Ashton","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 12\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we cover a wide variety of topics. We go through comparing yourself to others and how to stop doing that; the importance of reading, what it means to read books and how you can get the most out of doing that; and range, and why that\u0026rsquo;s an important thing to keep in mind as you go through your career. This episode was really great. I\u0026rsquo;m really excited for it, so please enjoy.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a man of many talents. He\u0026rsquo;s had many side hustles, including tutoring high school students, writing books and podcasting. He\u0026rsquo;s an account manager by day. My guest co-hosts the What You Will Learn podcast. It has over 3 million downloads, and he\u0026rsquo;s interviewed some of the best authors in the world.\nThe podcast is all about the best lessons from books and has also resulted in his own book, The Shit They Never Taught You. It came out earlier this year, compiling the lessons that the hosts have learnt from their reading. My guest today is a very accomplished and definitely well-read man. Please welcome Adam Ashton.\nAdam Ashton: Thanks, man. I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to it. We\u0026rsquo;ve got a lot in common, so I\u0026rsquo;m sure there\u0026rsquo;ll be lots to talk about. Also, I wonder where you got that three million stat, because I think we just cracked five. I\u0026rsquo;ll have to update that wherever it is.\nJames: I think I actually heard it from another podcast episode you were on. Perhaps, in the time since that was recorded—that\u0026rsquo;s why I was trying to go with “over 3 million”, because I knew it would be—\nAdam Ashton: It is over 3 million.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s at least five to me now, which is even better.\nAdam\u0026rsquo;s Graduate Experience # James: Fantastic. I want to start with your experience as a grad. As you said, we\u0026rsquo;ve got things in common: I\u0026rsquo;m a grad at ANZ at the moment, and it turns out you were a grad at ANZ as well about five years ago. I know you\u0026rsquo;ve done a lot of things on the side through uni and even through to what you\u0026rsquo;re doing now, but first, what was your experience as a grad like, and what did you take from that into the things you do today?\nAdam Ashton: Well, I went down the probably fortuitous path where I managed to jag the internship first. It was an eight-week internship over summer, the year before finishing uni. I did the internship, and then it was a “try before you buy”: some people got offered a graduate spot, and then they\u0026rsquo;d go back and finish the year of uni knowing that they had that gig locked in for the following year. There were probably 40 interns. I don\u0026rsquo;t know how many spots they were trying to fill. In my specific area, there were 10 or 12 interns probably going for five or six spots.\nIt was funny: I met up with some of my mates from that internship just last month, and they were saying that, at the time, they were like, “Okay, Josh, I know he\u0026rsquo;s getting in. Suroosh, I know he\u0026rsquo;s getting in. It was good to see Adam over this eight-week internship, but I don\u0026rsquo;t think we\u0026rsquo;re going to see him again.” Then they were perplexed on day one when I walked back in. They were shocked that I managed to get that offer.\nThat probably gives you a little bit of insight: I probably wasn\u0026rsquo;t the best intern, and I definitely wasn\u0026rsquo;t the best grad, but I obviously did enough and knew enough to impress enough people to get that early offer for the graduate program.\nIn all honesty, I probably just didn\u0026rsquo;t know what I wanted to do or what I should be doing. That was the easy path, I guess, because I was doing commerce and everybody was applying for internships. I thought, “If this is the game, this is the competition—who can get this spot? I guess I like competing, so I\u0026rsquo;ll see if I can get this job offer.”\nI managed to get that job offer, and then I thought, “Okay, the game now is to compete to get this grad spot.” I did what I had to do to compete for that grad spot. Each time, the game was evolving without me really thinking about what game I was playing. I was just thinking, “This is what I\u0026rsquo;m doing, so I\u0026rsquo;m going to see if I can do it as well as I can,” without ever taking that step back to think, “What do I want to do?”\nI wasn\u0026rsquo;t the best grad because the game then disappeared. It was like, “I\u0026rsquo;ve got the grad role now. What\u0026rsquo;s the game now?” I didn\u0026rsquo;t really know where I was headed or what I was going to do, so I didn\u0026rsquo;t do a whole lot, in all honesty. It was a short-lived graduate experience, that\u0026rsquo;s for sure.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. I\u0026rsquo;ve been reading a bit about intentionality recently.\nComparing Yourself at the 10 Year Reunion # James: As you were saying, you were in that competition to get grad roles and do the successful things at work, without really having a reason or deciding to do that yourself. You were just following along with no real direction. Is intentionality something you bring to the things you do now more than you did in the past?\nAdam Ashton: Definitely. I\u0026rsquo;d be lying if I said I didn\u0026rsquo;t still get those pangs of envy when I see other people. We were meant to have our 10-year high school reunion, but COVID put that off and cancelled it a couple of times, so we haven\u0026rsquo;t had it yet. Still, at that 10-year mark, there are different people doing different things: some have climbed the corporate ladder, got fancy titles and big salaries, and travelled around the world.\nThere are still those pangs of envy that, if I\u0026rsquo;d stuck it out and worked harder at this specific thing on this narrow path, I probably could have climbed up if I\u0026rsquo;d chosen to do that. At the same time, there are definitely no regrets. There\u0026rsquo;s much more intentionality around carving my own path and trying to work out my own way through, as opposed to just following the well-worn path laid out in front of me.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. That whole intentionality—really deciding what you\u0026rsquo;re going to do—is so important. Even if you managed to get 10 years into a corporate career and get the fancy title, as you said, you might not have enjoyed doing that. Actually deciding to do it and having an interest in it are important, because you don\u0026rsquo;t want to spend so long doing something and then realise, “Okay, I\u0026rsquo;m going to take control over what I\u0026rsquo;m doing.” You haven\u0026rsquo;t necessarily wasted that time, but it becomes harder because you\u0026rsquo;ve sunk so much time into the same thing.\nAdam Ashton: Definitely. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have enjoyed it at all. I don\u0026rsquo;t think I would have enjoyed the path or the destination, so it\u0026rsquo;s good to know that. Obviously, it would have been better to know even earlier, but it was probably something I had to do. If I\u0026rsquo;d gone somewhere completely different from the start, I probably would have had more “what ifs”. Because I\u0026rsquo;d started along that path and knew what was lying ahead, I can sleep a bit easier at night knowing that I\u0026rsquo;m not missing out.\nJames: Going back to what you were saying about the 10-year reunion, I had my five-year reunion recently. You can start to see that come into things: this person is doing that, so what have I done with my five years? Have I just been lazy? You start comparing yourself to everyone.\nHow do you deal with that when you\u0026rsquo;re faced with someone who\u0026rsquo;s done some cool thing? You almost shine the light back on yourself and think, “Why haven\u0026rsquo;t I done something like that?” Even in your case, where maybe you didn\u0026rsquo;t want to do that, it\u0026rsquo;s still hard not to think, “I could have done that if I wanted to, but I chose not to.”\nAdam Ashton: Definitely. One part is recognising that their goal is not your goal, their position is not your position and their trajectory is not your trajectory. They\u0026rsquo;re on their own path, and you\u0026rsquo;re on your own path.\nThe probably even better part is recognising that, whatever they did to achieve their success, they obviously worked hard, knew somebody, tried a lot of things or did whatever they did to get where they are. You can probably do that as well. Rather than looking at them with envy, look at them with admiration and think, “Good on them. They\u0026rsquo;ve done that. I could probably do the same thing if I wanted to emulate that. What can I do as well?” Don\u0026rsquo;t look at it as, “Poor, woe is me. They\u0026rsquo;re up there and I\u0026rsquo;m down here.” Think, “They got there somehow. What can I take from them and apply to my own trajectory and journey?”\nJames: I like that a lot. You can say, “Good on them for doing such a cool thing. Congratulations, you\u0026rsquo;ve done so well,” and have more of a collaborative outlook. Otherwise, it becomes a competition where they\u0026rsquo;re up here and I\u0026rsquo;m down here. You\u0026rsquo;re comparing yourself, and it could even affect the relationship because, whenever you speak to them, you\u0026rsquo;re thinking, “You\u0026rsquo;re doing this and I\u0026rsquo;m doing this, so I don\u0026rsquo;t feel worthy to speak to you,” or, “I don\u0026rsquo;t like you because you\u0026rsquo;re further ahead than me.”\nInstead, it could be something really great: they\u0026rsquo;re in this position, and it could be a fantastic opportunity to connect with them, work out how they did it and take some of those lessons into what you\u0026rsquo;re doing yourself.\nAdam Ashton: Most certainly. It works in multiple ways with your other friends who are doing different things. It starts to happen at five years, but 10 years is really when it happens. At five years, people are probably still at uni or just finishing uni. At 10 years, you\u0026rsquo;ve got a few years of your career under your belt. Some people have really accelerated and some haven\u0026rsquo;t, so those differences start to appear. The one that\u0026rsquo;s worse for me is looking at people who are five years younger and have accelerated past me. That\u0026rsquo;s probably harder than the people who were at my level and went higher, but that\u0026rsquo;s probably a different story.\nLeaving a Graduate Role # James: That\u0026rsquo;s funny. Let\u0026rsquo;s talk a little more about your career. As you said, you were a grad at ANZ, and you didn\u0026rsquo;t really enjoy it or see yourself going further down the traditional corporate path. What happened after that? Did you change jobs? What were your thoughts at that stage?\nAdam Ashton: I did that eight-week internship and the first six-month rotation, then got about halfway through the second six-month rotation. That whole time—even while I was at uni—I tried and started a couple of small businesses. They were mostly me selling my time for money and trying to scale that, as opposed to creating a product or an app. I\u0026rsquo;d done those, so I already had that itch. Then I started reading books and was exposed to a whole bunch of different ideas.\nInitially, I thought the path I was on was the only path there was. Then I started to see all these different paths that were possible. I went to Tony Robbins as well, walked on fire at Unleash the Power Within, and that was probably the moment when I thought, “I\u0026rsquo;m not liking this. I\u0026rsquo;m not going anywhere.”\nThe problem was that I wasn\u0026rsquo;t doing it properly. My mind was elsewhere, so I wasn\u0026rsquo;t really focused. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t doing the job properly, learning anything or doing what I should have been doing. The best thing for me was just to get out. It was the circuit-breaker I needed. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t like I quit and everything became clear; it was still very murky, and probably still is a bit murky. But it was enough to start forcing some intentionality and make me think a little more about where I wanted to head.\nTony Robbins and Career Exploration # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting that you went to a Tony Robbins event, because I\u0026rsquo;ve seen them around as well. He definitely hasn\u0026rsquo;t done them in person in Australia in the last two years, which is probably when I would have started looking, since I\u0026rsquo;ve been working for the last year.\nI\u0026rsquo;m curious to hear your thoughts on doing those things: paying for courses and almost upskilling, if you want to call it that, or having those soft-skill experiences. What was your process for deciding to do that? Was there anything that led you to see it as an opportunity and really want to pursue it?\nAdam Ashton: I wanted more than I was already getting. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t content with the job and career path I was on, so I wanted something else. It came in different forms: the free stuff, like listening to podcasts and trying to meet different people all the time; the smaller paid stuff, mostly books—as you can see, I\u0026rsquo;ve got a shitload of books behind me—and the bigger stuff, like in-person events or courses. It came from always wanting more, wanting to learn more, wanting to do something different and wanting to try different things.\nThat was very good at the time, but I think it comes to a point where you need to stop trying to take in more information and start doing stuff. If, five years later, I was still going to all these courses and trying to find the right thing, I think that would be bad. But I was in that searching period for a little while, then started making decisions and commitments and taking the next path. That was definitely a good thing.\nThe Learning and Doing Balance # James: I found that too, in what you said about reading and doing: you can almost make learning your full-time thing rather than acting on it. In 2020, my goal was to read 52 books in a year. I was going to read a lot and sort of cheat by listening to audiobooks as well. As I got closer to the end of the year, I had six or seven to do in December, so the pressure was on. I was reading as much as I could, but not because I wanted to or because I thought, “I\u0026rsquo;ll read this book and it will be valuable in this way.” I was just racing to get to a particular number.\nThat can happen with courses and books: reading the book is almost a mini achievement, rather than getting the achievement from doing something with what\u0026rsquo;s in the book, which is much more important.\nAdam Ashton: I think people can get addicted to learning, and it becomes another game or competition. Like my competition to get that job and then the graduate position, it\u0026rsquo;s almost a competition with yourself: how many books can you read? There\u0026rsquo;s no intentionality about what you\u0026rsquo;re reading and why.\nI did some of those courses as well. I did Seth Godin\u0026rsquo;s Marketing Seminar and the Podcasting Workshop, and then coached the Podcasting Workshop a couple of times. I\u0026rsquo;ve definitely seen people in those realms who keep doing all the different courses, compared with people who do one or two, then take what they\u0026rsquo;ve learnt and actually apply it. You can get addicted to learning, which isn\u0026rsquo;t the worst addiction—there are plenty of worse addictions out there—but if you can get over that learning addiction and turn it into a doing addiction, that\u0026rsquo;s probably even better.\nJames: I totally agree. That\u0026rsquo;s why I really like what you\u0026rsquo;ve done with your podcast, What You Will Learn, and the book. If you were just reading books and taking notes as your only thing—which is obviously a massive part of the podcast—that by itself isn\u0026rsquo;t a waste of time, but you\u0026rsquo;re in that learning-addiction phase. When you implement it in the podcast, share that information and condense it into something valuable for people, it makes what you\u0026rsquo;re doing really valuable.\nConsumption, Curation and Creation # James: It\u0026rsquo;s a great example of taking something you\u0026rsquo;re learning and repackaging it—making a YouTube channel about it or something—which teaches you real skills and converts that thing into something that\u0026rsquo;s—\nAdam Ashton: It\u0026rsquo;s a good hack, a good middle ground. A lot of people go through the learning or consumption phase, where you\u0026rsquo;re reading and learning from books. Then a lot of people want to get to the creation phase, which is doing something: starting a business, working really hard to get a promotion and fancy new title at work, or taking on some creative endeavour on the side. Whatever it is, people want to get to that point.\nA good middle step between consumption and creation is curation, which is where we went with the podcast. We were learning all this stuff, then trying to share it with people. We broke it down and made it a little simpler for people who wanted to consume it but probably didn\u0026rsquo;t have time to read a book every week.\nWe could be that middle ground. It was a good hack for them: they didn\u0026rsquo;t have to read a book every week, but could listen to a 30-minute podcast episode and get 80% of the value. It was also a good hack for us because we probably couldn\u0026rsquo;t jump straight to the creation phase of making our own new stuff.\nIt was a good middle ground where we didn\u0026rsquo;t feel as much pressure because we weren\u0026rsquo;t trying to teach everybody all our own stuff. We\u0026rsquo;re not these gurus, these masters at the top of the hill, preaching that we\u0026rsquo;re right, you\u0026rsquo;re wrong and this is how you should do it. We were in the middle ground, reading books and sharing that. It was a nice halfway step, a good little hack.\nJames: I haven\u0026rsquo;t heard it described like that before. That\u0026rsquo;s a really cool way of thinking about it.\nThe Start of What You Will Learn # James: I\u0026rsquo;m interested to hear more about the podcast now. What was the story and starting point? How did it begin?\nAdam Ashton: That was probably the best thing that came out of the ANZ grad program. It started through that program. My other mate, also called Adam, and I had finished uni around the same time and started our grad programs in big corporate jobs in the city at the same time.\nWe were meeting up beforehand and thought, “Let\u0026rsquo;s try to keep meeting up.” For us, it was also an attempt to meet some girls. We\u0026rsquo;d have our Friday morning coffee and breakfast, and in the first week we invited probably five or six girls, plus us two guys and maybe one or two other guys as well. The numbers dwindled slowly until me and Adam were the only ones left.\nWe started talking about books and what we were reading because we both liked reading. Then we thought, “We\u0026rsquo;re already talking about books, but we\u0026rsquo;re talking about different books that the other person knows nothing about. Let\u0026rsquo;s sync up and read the same thing at the same time, so we know what the other person\u0026rsquo;s talking about and can discuss it more deeply together.”\nThen it was, “We\u0026rsquo;re already meeting up once a week to talk about what books we\u0026rsquo;ve read. Let\u0026rsquo;s whack a microphone in the middle, hit record and see how it goes.” That\u0026rsquo;s the natural evolution of how it went. We\u0026rsquo;d hit record, talk the shit we normally would over coffees, but this time with a mic between us, then hit stop, upload it and gradually get more serious over time.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great story. Starting things organically, when it\u0026rsquo;s something you\u0026rsquo;d be doing anyway, is a great way to introduce yourself to what you were saying about going from the consumer to the curator to the creator. It\u0026rsquo;s a great first step: “We\u0026rsquo;re doing this anyway.” You\u0026rsquo;re not doing it because you have a huge audience that\u0026rsquo;s going to listen; even if it\u0026rsquo;s just for your own resources, you can go back in the future and say, “What was that book we read? What did I think about it?”\nThat\u0026rsquo;s one of the main reasons I write a blog post or do something like that: so I can go back and see it later, not really—at this stage, at least—for any massive audience. I think the story of how you started is great.\nAdam Ashton: That\u0026rsquo;s really what it was. There were probably dreams and aspirations of being the next Joe Rogan or Tim Ferriss or something, but more realistically, part of it was that we weren\u0026rsquo;t really adding a whole lot. We wanted to do some kind of side thing, so it was an easy entry point. But we also thought, “It\u0026rsquo;d be nice if people listen, but if they don\u0026rsquo;t, what are we going to get out of it?”\nThere were so many benefits to starting a podcast. There was the book element: it forced us to read more. In 2021, I did about 75 books, whereas at the time I was reading 25 or maybe 30 a year. It forced us to ramp that up to a book a week.\nThere was also a massive increase in retention. A lot of those first 30 books felt good at the time, and there was probably good stuff in them, but I couldn\u0026rsquo;t tell you what was in them. Dissecting the book, taking notes, preparing an episode, talking about it, editing the episode and listening back forced us to retain much more of what we were learning.\nThen there were the hard skills of podcasting: what equipment do you get, how do you record it and where does it go afterwards? There was that specific podcast skill, but also broader meta skills like communication, listening, speaking, public speaking, reducing how many times you say “um”, being clear and concise, and having some kind of arc so you don\u0026rsquo;t ramble on and on, but have a point.\nThere were all these benefits to starting a podcast. Even if nobody listened, it was going to be a great project for us. There was no downside except for the time investment and 25 bucks to buy a book, and the upside was that maybe somebody would listen one day.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s such a good way to look at a side hustle or project: even if this completely flopped and nothing happened, would it still be beneficial? If it would, that\u0026rsquo;s a great sign that it\u0026rsquo;s worth doing.\nAdam Ashton: If you go into it thinking, “We\u0026rsquo;re going to start a podcast, and in six months we\u0026rsquo;ll have 100,000 listeners every week. We\u0026rsquo;ll make 10 grand a month, quit our jobs, stick the finger up at the boss, run around, and this will be our full-time job,” you\u0026rsquo;re almost definitely not going to achieve that goal. You\u0026rsquo;ll be so focused on the end goal, the money, the listeners and trying to do all that stuff that you\u0026rsquo;re not in it for the right reasons.\nInstead, your downside could just be personal growth, personal development, learning and improving yourself. Then maybe, down the track, you do make all that money, have all those listeners, become the next Oprah Winfrey of podcasting and get massive. That\u0026rsquo;s great.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really important: enjoying the process versus having some clear idea that, “This is definitely going to happen, and then life will be good. Once I quit my job and earn this much money from the podcast, it\u0026rsquo;ll be so good.” Instead, as you said, you can do it because it\u0026rsquo;s fun. If it ends up being something good, that\u0026rsquo;s great; if not, that\u0026rsquo;s also fine.\nAdam Ashton: Exactly. It comes down to two different types of motivation. With extrinsic motivation, you\u0026rsquo;re doing it for the money because you want to make five or 10 grand a month. If, after a month, you\u0026rsquo;re sitting on $0—or probably negative dollars after buying your mic—you think, “This isn\u0026rsquo;t working, so I\u0026rsquo;m going to quit.” Compare that with intrinsic motivation: you want to do it because you\u0026rsquo;re developing skills. After a month, you\u0026rsquo;ve definitely ticked that box. You\u0026rsquo;re achieving those goals and you\u0026rsquo;re well on the way.\nCautions on Working on Side Projects While at Work # James: Before the podcast, we talked about things that happened in the workplace while doing this stuff on the side. Was there any friction between engaging in this commercial endeavour and being involved in full-time work? How did you navigate that?\nAdam Ashton: Definitely a lot of friction, mostly self-inflicted and probably my fault because of the way I did it. But I\u0026rsquo;m keen to hear yours as well. I half know the ANZ culture, I\u0026rsquo;d say. How have you gone inside the ANZ grad program while also doing a podcast on the side? Who do you tell? What do you tell them? Does anybody know? Is it top secret? What\u0026rsquo;s the go? Then I\u0026rsquo;ll give you my version as well.\nJames: I was quite upfront with it. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t sure what to do, because I was preparing in case it became something really big and I devoted all this time to it. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t sure how it worked when, at some companies, something you work on on the side can still count as the company\u0026rsquo;s property—they own everything you do.\nI emailed some of the HR girls and said, “This is what I\u0026rsquo;m thinking of doing.” Then I had to put in a form. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure of the exact name, but it\u0026rsquo;s a declaration of conflict or something. It\u0026rsquo;s similar to what you would do if you were employed in a high position and your brother was the CEO of another company in the same field—that kind of conflict.\nThey said, “It seems pretty fine to me,” so there were no issues, which was great. A lot of the grads and everyone know about it. Some of them will be listening to this episode, I\u0026rsquo;m sure, and they\u0026rsquo;re all quite supportive. So far, I haven\u0026rsquo;t run into any problems, which has been great.\nAdam Ashton: That\u0026rsquo;s good. My first big flop—the wrong way to go about it—was when I was at ANZ and we started this podcast. We were reading all these books and learning all this stuff. You\u0026rsquo;d read The One Minute Manager and think, “Man, my boss is so shit. Why doesn\u0026rsquo;t she read this book? She\u0026rsquo;d be so much better as a manager.” Then you\u0026rsquo;d think, “This other guy in my team is so bad at time management. Why doesn\u0026rsquo;t he read Eat That Frog!? He could be good at managing his time and wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have to work so hard because he\u0026rsquo;d get more done.”\nThe first 10 books probably gave us that high-and-mighty attitude: “I\u0026rsquo;m so good. I\u0026rsquo;m better than you. Why don\u0026rsquo;t you read this stuff?” I wasn\u0026rsquo;t blatantly going up to my boss and saying, “You\u0026rsquo;re a bad manager. You should read this book,” but I probably had an air of superiority that was completely—ridiculously—unwarranted. When people first start reading books, I reckon everyone gets a little bit of that.\nThen I started telling people about the podcast. It was so early on that it was ridiculous to think anything of it. We\u0026rsquo;d get 100 downloads or something. It was impressive to us at the time, but to somebody else, it was, “Why should I care? What\u0026rsquo;s the difference? Why are you wasting all this time? Just do your job.” I went about it the wrong way at ANZ, and it was ridiculous and completely unwarranted at the time.\nWe didn\u0026rsquo;t mention it, but I also went into the Linfox grad program after the ANZ grad program. I thought, “I did it all wrong last time. This time, I\u0026rsquo;m going to do it right. I\u0026rsquo;m not going to say anything about reading books, the podcast or anything else.” I was also writing my own book. I got to the point where I\u0026rsquo;d spent almost two years writing it, finally finished it, sent it to the printers and was getting 2,000 copies shipped on a pallet. Heaps and heaps of big boxes were coming to my place on a Tuesday afternoon at 4:00 pm or something.\nI managed to sneak out without telling anyone. I didn\u0026rsquo;t say, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to pick up this book I just wrote,” because I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to tell anybody. I got home and had missed them by about 20 minutes. They said, “We\u0026rsquo;re going to have to come back tomorrow.”\nI thought, “Oh shit, what do I do now? I should have just faked a sickie.” But I called my boss and said, “Sorry, I had to rush off because I\u0026rsquo;d written and printed this book. I was getting 2,000 copies and had to get them, but I missed them, so now I\u0026rsquo;m going to have to stay home tomorrow to get this book.”\nAt the time, he said, “That\u0026rsquo;s good. Bring us a copy and show it around the next day when you come back.” I wondered, “Should I do that?” The answer was no; I probably shouldn\u0026rsquo;t have at that time and place. But I did. The next day, I brought in a book and showed people, and I could tell from that moment that things had shifted again.\nThis isn\u0026rsquo;t to say it\u0026rsquo;ll be the same for every company and situation, but for me, the team I was in, the people I was working with and probably the attitude I was carrying were a horrendous mix. That was my stumbling block. Fast-forward maybe six weeks, and I could tell the boss\u0026rsquo;s perception of me had changed in the wrong way.\nI was in a team with a lot of older people who had been at the company—and probably in the same role—for a long time. They were a bit older and slower. They knew what they had to do, got it done and went home at 5:01 every day. I came in with a little more youthful exuberance and energy, and probably tried to work a little harder after my first failure at ANZ.\nI had to see HR because she said the boss had said a few things about me, and she wanted to check that everything was okay. She said the boss had told her, “I think Adam\u0026rsquo;s working on another book on work time.” I said, “What?” Apparently, the reason was that I was typing too fast, working too hard and was too enthusiastic at work. I asked, “How is that a bad thing?” She said, “Maybe it would be a good idea if you just typed slower.”\nI said, “So I do less work, and that\u0026rsquo;s going to be better?” Everybody around me was old and slow. They did what they had to do, kept their heads down, stayed in their lanes, and that was that. I\u0026rsquo;d come in and tried to do a few different things, and that was a bad thing.\nYou definitely have to be careful who you tell, what you tell them, how and when you do it, and whether you should do it at all. That was another red flag. Long story short, I wasn\u0026rsquo;t in that grad program for too long before leaving again.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a cool story. Now you\u0026rsquo;ve had the experience, it makes it easier, but it\u0026rsquo;s hard to know at the time. It\u0026rsquo;s a useful lesson for people listening: make sure you\u0026rsquo;re careful about what you\u0026rsquo;re sharing—\nAdam Ashton: I learnt the lesson the first time and knew I shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be doing it, but I couldn\u0026rsquo;t resist the second time. I was so proud of doing this book at 22 or 23 years old. I\u0026rsquo;d done it and got 2,000 copies. I was too excited to keep it to myself.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not to say everybody would have the same experience, but you have to think about who you tell, and how, when and why. If you\u0026rsquo;re in the right place, a lot of people will be super supportive, because they know that doing a podcast means I\u0026rsquo;m learning a lot of stuff and can speak better. Maybe there\u0026rsquo;s an opportunity for me to present something at a meeting because I\u0026rsquo;ve improved these skills.\nI\u0026rsquo;d written this book on my own time, not on work time as the boss had suspected. I\u0026rsquo;d worked hard to interview these people, get all this information and collate it into a concise book. Maybe there\u0026rsquo;s an opportunity outside the normal job where they can say, “You\u0026rsquo;ve done this before. Can you do a media release, or something else that uses the skills you\u0026rsquo;ve learnt outside?”\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re in the right place, they\u0026rsquo;ll recognise that doing things on the side does build your skills. It makes you more valuable and useful to the organisation, and they\u0026rsquo;ll tap into that. Of course, if you\u0026rsquo;re in the wrong organisation or team, or have the wrong boss, you have to be careful. They might see it as a negative, as detracting value: “You\u0026rsquo;re improving over here, so you\u0026rsquo;re going down over in my team.” It\u0026rsquo;s a weird way to look at it, but a lot of people do.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m really glad you shared that, because I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have considered that it could happen. For anyone doing something on the side, it\u0026rsquo;s important to be upfront about it in some ways, but also to be conscious of the team and environment you\u0026rsquo;re in. If you want to work there in the long term, is it going to be a good thing to share? In some cases, you have to be careful. As you said, it\u0026rsquo;s unfortunate that a team wouldn\u0026rsquo;t want to support you, but it\u0026rsquo;s something you\u0026rsquo;ve got to keep your eye on.\nAdam Ashton: Most certainly, but at least it makes for a good story.\nFavourite lessons from The Shit They Never Taught You # James: So, the book you shared with the guys at work—now you\u0026rsquo;ve gone on to write a second book. Or at least, perhaps it\u0026rsquo;s not your second; I know you do a lot of this kind of thing.\nAdam Ashton: Probably second.\nJames: Well, you\u0026rsquo;ve written The Shit They Never Taught You. It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic. I was going to call it a summary, but I know it\u0026rsquo;s much more than that. You\u0026rsquo;ve combined things so nicely, with a lot of interaction between the summaries. It\u0026rsquo;s a really great book and probably one of the best I\u0026rsquo;ve read, to be honest. It\u0026rsquo;s huge as well. It\u0026rsquo;s something you can always turn back to and find a particular section to look at.\nOf all the books you\u0026rsquo;ve read and the work around your book, are there any key lessons that are front of mind and that you use today?\nAdam Ashton: Definitely. I think it\u0026rsquo;s lesson seven, “The Various Paths to Mastery”, the first lesson of our career section. It\u0026rsquo;s the idea about the two different ways to achieve mastery or success.\nRange and Mastery # Adam Ashton: Probably the biggest one—a real face-slapper and eye-opener for me—was a book you\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned a couple of times on the podcast: Range by David Epstein. I read it at the very end of 2019, then read it again two weeks later at the start of 2020. It was so good that I had to read it twice within a couple of weeks. Do you want to give your quick summary of Range, then I\u0026rsquo;ll explain how I think about and apply it?\nJames: Sure. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether I\u0026rsquo;m biased because I\u0026rsquo;m pursuing the range path as well. Maybe that makes me like it more.\nAdam Ashton: That\u0026rsquo;s definitely me.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s the idea that being more of a generalist can lead to synergies down the line that make you more effective, rather than picking one niche and going at it 100%.\nThe book gives the example of Roger Federer and Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods started to play golf when he was very young—about five or six, I think—and has gone 100% on golf since then. He\u0026rsquo;s obviously gone on to become a world champion, and is really famous and all that.\nRoger Federer is the opposite in a lot of ways. He played soccer and did all these other sports, and only started playing tennis properly when he was about 16. The idea is that having those experiences behind him allowed him to become much better at tennis than he would have been if he\u0026rsquo;d taken the Tiger Woods approach to tennis.\nSome things in life are like golf and chess: they\u0026rsquo;re based on pattern recognition, it\u0026rsquo;s easy to predict what\u0026rsquo;s going on, and to get good at them you have to practise a lot and go 100%. But a lot of things in life, at least according to David Epstein, are more like tennis, where the game is more unpredictable and you need a variety of experiences to succeed more easily.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s my summary. It affects my career choices by making me want a background in heaps of different areas. Sometimes, the crossover between areas allows you to have new insights or add more value than someone who\u0026rsquo;s only been exposed to one particular area.\nAdam Ashton: That was a good summary. You should do a book.\nFor me, it was a real eye-opener to see the specialist and the generalist. We rebranded it as going wide versus going deep. If there is an area you want to specialise in, and it\u0026rsquo;s more like golf or chess—a profession where there\u0026rsquo;s a clear answer and way to do it—the way to achieve success is to be the best person at that. That means working the hardest in that one niche field and going really, really deep.\nThe books that link with that include Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, which talks about Anders Ericsson\u0026rsquo;s 10,000-hour rule and the violinists who practised for 10,000 hours and achieved mastery. It\u0026rsquo;s saying, if you want to go deep in something, get your 10,000 hours. Work really hard, work more than everybody else, learn more than everybody else and achieve better things than everybody else.\nWe also linked in Grit by Angela Duckworth, which says that the path is going to be bloody tough. You need a bit of grit to get through. You need to pick the right thing to go deep at, then use grit to get through those 10,000 hours. At the end of that journey, you become a master in your field and successful, if that\u0026rsquo;s the path you choose. It\u0026rsquo;s a very viable path to success, but it\u0026rsquo;s not the only one.\nA lot of people probably think the only path is to work really, really hard at one thing and become the best at it. But another way to achieve success is going wide: the generalist approach. We used Range, as I said, and Originals by Adam Grant to show that it isn\u0026rsquo;t just the person who works hardest. Maybe it\u0026rsquo;s the person who\u0026rsquo;s done two years in this, three years in that, two years over here and another four years over there.\nAt the time, it looks like a weird path. They\u0026rsquo;re jumping between different things and learning skills that seem unrelated. But at the end, they magically come to the intersection of all these different skills. They find the synergies and ways to stack these things together, so they become the best at one niche intersection of all these things—one that nobody else could possibly do because they haven\u0026rsquo;t built all the different skills.\nAs you said, you\u0026rsquo;re probably biased towards that because it\u0026rsquo;s the path you\u0026rsquo;re on, and that\u0026rsquo;s definitely me as well. I think it holds a lot of merit. Just knowing there\u0026rsquo;s another path besides picking one thing and working really hard at it is valuable. If you do jump between things, don\u0026rsquo;t just quit something because you don\u0026rsquo;t like it, then try something else and quit that because you don\u0026rsquo;t like it. You need intentionality around the different skills you\u0026rsquo;re building. It might seem like you\u0026rsquo;re a failure at the start, but in the end you magically stack all these different things together to achieve your own success.\nJames: I think it\u0026rsquo;s so important. A lot of these books are fantastic at giving you insights into themes behind people who have done great things, and it\u0026rsquo;s important to get different perspectives: the Range perspective and the go-deep-in-one-area perspective.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why reading books has been so good. Getting those inputs and hearing stories from heaps of different angles helps you formulate your own opinions and better choose the path you want to go down. There\u0026rsquo;s so much value to be gained, but only if you act on what you\u0026rsquo;ve read as well.\nWhat Drives Adam to be Successful # James: I want to ask you about success. When we talk about range, we might say, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to take the range path in my career and become a generalist because that will make me successful.” What\u0026rsquo;s the driving factor behind your desire to succeed? Are there any motivations that stand out as the reasons you want to go down that path?\nAdam Ashton: It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting one. It\u0026rsquo;s probably partly my inbuilt competitive nature. To go a little introspective, I have a high opinion of myself and think I\u0026rsquo;m very good, so I think I should work hard to prove to everybody else that I\u0026rsquo;m as good as I think I am.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s also a societal norm, or just the nature of what everyone strives towards. These are the types of things conventionally recognised as success, so if I want to be successful, I\u0026rsquo;ve got to achieve those things.\nI think I\u0026rsquo;ve matured a little in that. At the start of my career, success meant a fancy title, a good job, a big house and lots of money. Now, I\u0026rsquo;m working towards autonomy and control. “Freedom” is probably used too loosely—financial freedom and stuff—so, although it is freedom, I don\u0026rsquo;t really like that word. I\u0026rsquo;d say more flexibility, more choices and more options.\nThe financial year just gone was the first time my side income overtook my full-time income. I\u0026rsquo;m still working full-time and doing all this stuff on the side. When I was 21, my goal was to make a million dollars or whatever, whereas now the goal is just to have options. I\u0026rsquo;m still working full-time, but I\u0026rsquo;ve got this side stuff that\u0026rsquo;s growing. When I first quit ANZ, I thought there was side income when there really wasn\u0026rsquo;t anything sustainable.\nNow, it\u0026rsquo;s more about flexibility. It\u0026rsquo;s not just about sitting at a desk at 6:00 am and working until 8:00 pm. It\u0026rsquo;s, “What can I do that provides a lot of value, is highly leveraged and is effective work, where I can do two or three hours of really hard work and then play golf in the afternoon?”\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not necessarily about working hard to get more money, status, clients, business and success in that sense. It\u0026rsquo;s about what I can do that adds value, then using the rest of the time to do things I enjoy, whether that\u0026rsquo;s seeing friends, trying new hobbies, reading, learning or doing other stuff on the side. A lot of the time, the choice I make is to do extra stuff and more work—not because I have to, but because I want to. The option to do other things is still there.\nJames: That was a really good answer.\nAdam Ashton: I think it was a good question.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s important to understand, because even I don\u0026rsquo;t think about it very often. Why aren\u0026rsquo;t I just playing video games all day? It\u0026rsquo;s probably because that isn\u0026rsquo;t very fulfilling.\nAs you said, we\u0026rsquo;ve got so much to offer. It\u0026rsquo;d be a waste not to go out and make the world a better place because of the things we can do. That goes not just for me, but for everyone, including the people listening. Everyone has something unique to offer. You can look at this from many angles, but it\u0026rsquo;s important to consider why you\u0026rsquo;re on the success train: why are you actually doing the things you want to do?\nGetting clear on that intrinsic motivation is important. It leads into intentionality and helps you make choices and career decisions based on the life and things you want.\nAdam Ashton: I really like reading two books where you read one and think, “Oh my God, this is incredible. Here\u0026rsquo;s the answer. This is the one thing. This is amazing.” Then you read another and think, “Oh my God, this is incredible. This is the answer. This is perfect.” But then you realise they\u0026rsquo;re saying opposite things and are both true.\nFor example, Outliers and Range are saying opposite things. One says, “Work really hard and get really good at this one thing.” Range says, “Go wide, get really good at a whole bunch of things and stack them together.” They\u0026rsquo;re opposites. There are other books that seem 100% right but are also 180 degrees opposed.\nI\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to my next batch. Another friend who does a book podcast has been talking about two books. Four Thousand Weeks says you\u0026rsquo;ve got, on average, 4,000 weeks to live. Life is short, you\u0026rsquo;re going to die soon, so everything matters. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to work really hard because everything matters.\nThen there\u0026rsquo;s another book she recommends, The Sunny Nihilist, which talks about nihilism and takes a more relaxed approach: life is short, you\u0026rsquo;re going to die, so nothing matters. They\u0026rsquo;re both true. You can say, “Man, I\u0026rsquo;ve got such limited time. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to work hard to achieve all these things,” and that\u0026rsquo;s true. Or you can say, “I\u0026rsquo;ve got such limited time. What does it matter? I can kick my feet up and take the video-game path,” and that\u0026rsquo;s probably true as well. Which should you pick?\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s great that you can read books and get those perspectives. It\u0026rsquo;s important not to go 100% one way, and to realise there\u0026rsquo;s an alternative—a pretty good one. It isn\u0026rsquo;t just a random idea someone had on a Sunday afternoon; there\u0026rsquo;s merit behind these alternatives.\nHow To Start Reading # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got two more things I want to ask. One is a more basic question: perhaps people listening to us talk about all these books want to start their reading journey. What advice would you give someone who\u0026rsquo;s starting to read and develop that habit and interest?\nAdam Ashton: For me, it started with listening to podcasts like Tim Ferriss or James Altucher. They\u0026rsquo;d interview successful people from different fields, and it seemed every successful person had a book they could point to and say, “I read this book, and it changed my perspective,” or, “It gave me one idea that revolutionised everything.”\nI thought, “Damn, if all these successful people and powerful businesswomen and men are reading books, I should start reading them as well.” That\u0026rsquo;s probably where I first had the idea. I felt like I wanted to read books, not that I had to.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re listening to this and think, “Adam and James are saying we should read books, so I\u0026rsquo;d better start,” it isn\u0026rsquo;t going to work. That\u0026rsquo;s like high school, where you\u0026rsquo;ve got to read Shakespeare, Dickens and all this crap because you have to, even though you don\u0026rsquo;t want to. Genuinely wanting to read is the first step to developing the habit. Similarly, pick books you\u0026rsquo;re genuinely interested in and naturally curious about, not just books somebody says are the best and that you have to read. That\u0026rsquo;s the meta level: want to read first, then pick books you\u0026rsquo;re interested in.\nThe on-the-ground stuff is not viewing reading as a big task where you have to set aside an hour of pure silence with no distractions and lie there reading. That feels like a chore. For me, it\u0026rsquo;s more, “I\u0026rsquo;ve got a pocket of five minutes here, so I\u0026rsquo;ll read a couple of pages. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a spare 12 minutes over here, so I\u0026rsquo;ll read a little.” I fit it between the cracks of the day, which seems easy compared with blocking out one big batch of time as your reading time.\nJames: That idea you mentioned earlier—being interested in doing it first—is fundamental to so many things. You don\u0026rsquo;t want it to be, “I have to read. If I want to become successful, I have to read,” and then force yourself through books. You won\u0026rsquo;t get anything out of that. It\u0026rsquo;ll probably be more of a waste of time than doing nothing, because it\u0026rsquo;s more painful.\nAdam\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Graduates # James: To finish, Adam, we\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about your grad experience and the podcast. What advice would you give to graduates listening who might be in their first year in the workplace, knowing everything you know and all the experiences you\u0026rsquo;ve had?\nAdam Ashton: Before we started, I had three things in mind, but I\u0026rsquo;m going to change them. Maybe, in a year or two, we\u0026rsquo;ll have to do a second episode and I\u0026rsquo;ll give the other three I was going to give—although maybe they\u0026rsquo;ll have changed by then. I\u0026rsquo;m going to combine the first answer I gave with the last one about the whole grad experience.\nThe first time, I saw it as a game and competition. I thought I was in it, so I had to do it and beat everybody else. It was the path everyone was taking, so I thought, “I\u0026rsquo;m going to jump on this path and try to do it better than everybody else, because that\u0026rsquo;s what everybody does.” That was the wrong approach.\nThe right approach is the “want to” approach we spoke about with reading. If you genuinely want to do it, are curious about it and see the benefits—things you can learn and apply to your work, career, business, relationships or friendships—you\u0026rsquo;re going to enjoy reading.\nIf I\u0026rsquo;d flipped my perspective on work and seen it as something I wanted to do, where I could develop skills, learn new things, build a reputation or brand, and build a network, it would have been a much better experience. If I were a grad now, I\u0026rsquo;m sure I\u0026rsquo;d be so much better than I was five years ago.\nMy advice isn\u0026rsquo;t to quit your grad job and start a business, or whatever you might be thinking. It\u0026rsquo;s to realise you can do both. You can have a full-time job plus stuff on the side; they aren\u0026rsquo;t competing and can complement each other. I should have placed more value on the grad experience, rather than dismissing it as, “I\u0026rsquo;m doing all this stuff on the side, so this stuff is less important.”\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. It\u0026rsquo;s important to be conscious of things you\u0026rsquo;re going to enjoy doing and go down that path, rather than forcing yourself or doing things because someone told you to, or because you\u0026rsquo;re waiting for an outcome.\nAdam Ashton: I want to add one clarification. When I say to do something because you want to, I don\u0026rsquo;t mean, “Find your passion, follow it, only do the things you want to do and don\u0026rsquo;t do anything else.” It\u0026rsquo;s more about realising there are opportunities everywhere and cultivating passion—finding a passion for something by doing it.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t turn down a job offer because you say, “I don\u0026rsquo;t like banking, so I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do banking,” or, “I don\u0026rsquo;t like law, so I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do law.” That\u0026rsquo;s probably the wrong approach. If you do it properly, take it seriously and recognise the benefits, you\u0026rsquo;ll actually want to do it. It isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily about picking something because you want to do it, but wanting to do it because you\u0026rsquo;ve picked it, if that makes sense.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a cart-before-the-horse situation, which can be tricky. All that advice is really important. Take some time to think about how it impacts you, rather than just listening to the episode and ticking it off: “Listened to the episode. Done.” Think, “This is what the guys said. How does it impact me? What am I going to do as a result?” Be intentional about listening to this episode, too.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for coming on today, Adam. We\u0026rsquo;ve had a fantastic chat. If people want to get in touch with you or hear more about what you do, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place to go?\nAdam Ashton: For me personally, probably LinkedIn. Not that I\u0026rsquo;m active there at all, but I\u0026rsquo;ll check it at least. If you want to check out the podcast, go to WhatYouWillLearn.com or—you\u0026rsquo;re already listening to a podcast—search for What You Will Learn. The book\u0026rsquo;s there as well, The Shit They Never Taught You.\nJames: Amazing. Thanks so much for today, Adam. We\u0026rsquo;ll have you on in two years\u0026rsquo; time to chat about some of your more—\nAdam Ashton: I\u0026rsquo;ll give you those three answers I was actually going to give you next time.\nJames: Perfect. We\u0026rsquo;ll see you then.\nJames: Thanks so much for listening to Graduate Theory and for making it all the way to the end of this episode. If you\u0026rsquo;re interested in keeping in touch and hearing more about Graduate Theory, I\u0026rsquo;d really encourage you to subscribe wherever you may be.\nIf you want to find out more and get my insights and deeper thoughts on today\u0026rsquo;s episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can subscribe to the newsletter and read my additional thoughts. Thanks so much again for listening today, and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 12\n","date":"10 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/12-on-books-and-the-importance-of-range-with-adam-ashton/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 12\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Books and The Importance of Range with Adam Ashton","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Haynes is a Finance Manager at Airwallex. He has worked at Goldman Sachs JBWere and PwC, where he worked in Silicon Valley on billion-dollar deals like the Uber IPO and Airbnb transactions.\nClick Here to Never Miss an Episode\n🤝 Connect With Haynes # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/haynesdsouza/\n👇 Episode Takeaways # The Importance of the Side Hustle # Haynes is really passionate about side hustles. One of the big reasons why he is so passionate about them is risk-taking. He didn\u0026rsquo;t want to be at the end of his career and say that he never took a risk, that he never tried to have a big impact.\nHe described his story of living in Silicon Valley where people had their 9-5 jobs but also a 5-9.\nCreating real impact starts with creating something.\nGreat Questions to Ask When Moving Roles # During the episode, I asked Haynes what questions he would ask when moving roles.\nHe came back with some great ones 👇\nIs the company growing?\nWhat is the culture like?\nWhy is this role open? (Did someone leave? Why?)\nWhat is the vision of the founders/executives?\nDo people go out at the end of the week?\nDo people appreciate asking for help or is it more independent?\nWhere do people that work in this role usually end up in 5 years?\nWhat are your hours like?\nI thought that these were fantastic questions, particularly the one I have highlighted in bold. Asking good questions in these times of change is so important in getting good answers.\nThese questions will be very helpful when changing roles.\nYour Career is Not Linear # Often we can fall into the trap of thinking that we are on a strictly linear career path. A path where we go from analyst to senior analyst to manager and so on. What we fail to miss is that we might change careers, we might have a family and this linear career notion stops being useful.\nHaynes says that the key is to realise that our careers aren\u0026rsquo;t linear and actually embrace this fact. Embrace the fact that things change and may not go the exact way you plan. This isn\u0026rsquo;t bad, this is what makes life interesting.\n💭 Things Discussed # Trends\nTim Ferriss\nThe 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing - Al Ries, Jack Trout\nObsidian\nHow to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big - Scott Adams\nCharlie Munger\u0026rsquo;s Mental Models\nShow Notes 📝 # 00:00 #11 Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza\n00:00 Intro\n02:14 From Melbourne to Silicon Valley\n06:42 Tall Poppy Syndrome in Australia\n09:04 Lesson\u0026rsquo;s from Covid in New York\n14:14 What makes a successful startup\n18:01 The Importance of Timing for Your Startup\n22:47 Upcoming Trends\n31:06 Haynes\u0026rsquo; Favourite Failure\n37:54 Questions to ask when moving roles\n39:56 Your career is not linear\n43:12 Finding Mentors in Australia\n46:12 How to reach out to people\n49:18 Haynes\u0026rsquo; Advice for Graduates\n52:26 Charlie Munger\u0026rsquo;s Lattice Theory\n56:08 The Fancy Title Career Mistake\n01:00:33 Outro\n","date":"3 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/11-on-the-graduate-experience-and-careers-with-haynes-dsouza/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Haynes is a Finance Manager at Airwallex. He has worked at Goldman Sachs JBWere and PwC, where he worked in Silicon Valley on billion-dollar deals like the Uber IPO and Airbnb transactions.\n","title":"On The Graduate Experience and Careers with Haynes D'Souza","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 11\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a great one. We go really deep with someone who is passionate about graduates, and about you taking control and growing your career.\nOn this episode, we speak about overseas travel, starting a side project while you\u0026rsquo;re working full-time, different cultures and how they work, mentorship, and ways to plan and build out your career. There\u0026rsquo;s so much value here. We covered so many different angles of so many different things.\nThis episode is one of my favourites. If you want to get it straight to your inbox and read my insights and what I picked up from it, please go to GraduateTheory.com and subscribe to the newsletter. You\u0026rsquo;ll get my thoughts and the different things that I picked up from the podcast.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll also find more information about different things that we spoke about on the episode today. Without further ado, let\u0026rsquo;s dive in.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today graduated with a Bachelor of Commerce from the University of Melbourne in 2015. He has worked at Goldman Sachs and PwC, where he worked in Silicon Valley on billion-dollar deals like the Uber IPO. Since returning to Australia at the start of this year, my guest has started working as the Australia and New Zealand finance manager for Airwallex. He works as a mentor at VC firm Blackbird and as a startup mentor at Textbook Ventures.\nOn top of all this, my guest runs his company, 87 Advisory, where he helps small businesses perform financial due diligence over their M\u0026amp;A and venture capital processes. Please welcome to the show the highly accomplished Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza.\nHaynes: Thanks, James. Thanks for having me on. That was a very warm and generous introduction, so feel free to keep going. That was great.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;ve done so much, and it\u0026rsquo;s going to be a great conversation today. I\u0026rsquo;m really excited to get into all the things you\u0026rsquo;ve done in your career.\nFrom Melbourne to Silicon Valley # James: When I was researching you, one thing that really stuck out to me was this move you made from Australia to America and Silicon Valley.\nWas there a key moment that led to you deciding to go to Silicon Valley?\nHaynes: Before I moved over to SF, I did two years in Canberra. I worked at the Australian National Audit Office. I initially started very optimistic about government. I wanted to learn how government works.\nI wanted to learn how the military worked. I spent a lot of time looking at consulting and audit projects for the military and the Department of Finance. But then I got to the end of two years and just wasn\u0026rsquo;t being challenged. I was in my mid-twenties, and I looked at people five, 10 or 15 years older than me.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t find that trajectory too challenging. I\u0026rsquo;ve always been a big believer that all Aussies should go and work overseas, so I reached out to a few networks at PwC, where I had worked in Melbourne for a bit, and said, \u0026ldquo;Look, I really want to go to San Francisco.\u0026rdquo;\nPeople said, \u0026ldquo;Look, it\u0026rsquo;s a lot like Melbourne. The coffee scene is just as good. It\u0026rsquo;s just as expensive.\u0026rdquo; Interestingly, it was either that or Germany, and I hated German food anyway. So I made the move across to San Francisco and was there for about two years.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s where I caught the tech bug. I worked on the Uber IPO, met some amazing people and saw the work ethic of entrepreneurialism. It changed my outlook on many things, not just work but life more generally. You work overseas, and you see folks who have gone to Harvard, Stanford and some of the elite universities working in these amazing jobs.\nYou try to internalise some of those learnings and bring them back home. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve tried to do, being with Airwallex right now and doing a whole bunch of mentoring and advisory work as well.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really exciting. You mentioned connecting with people who went to these Ivy League universities, which is incredible, but what are the main lessons you\u0026rsquo;ve taken from connecting with those people and working on those projects? Is there anything that really sticks out to you as something you\u0026rsquo;ve taken back?\nHaynes: Growing up in Australia, we came here when I was eight. I grew up in the northern suburbs of Melbourne, and for a long time that was the world I knew. Then you meet other Aussies when you travel, and you see that their perspectives are global.\nYour ability to make a difference is global. When I met folks in San Francisco, the biggest takeaway for me was: don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid of starting an idea or having a business that can have a global impact. Sometimes in Melbourne, or in Australia, we can get isolated on this part of the world and lose sight of what\u0026rsquo;s going on in the States and Europe.\nBut that was the emphasis I saw among folks in San Francisco. They\u0026rsquo;re like, \u0026ldquo;Look, there\u0026rsquo;s a big problem. I\u0026rsquo;m going to try to fix it globally, and I\u0026rsquo;m not going to take no for an answer.\u0026rdquo; That relentless optimism and drive is what I saw in many Aussies in San Francisco.\nI saw it in many US folks there as well. I highly recommend that all graduates, and young adults too, go over to the States and experience that secret sauce of optimism, positivity, relentless ambition and the drive to say, \u0026ldquo;There\u0026rsquo;s a problem. I\u0026rsquo;m going to try to fix it.\u0026rdquo;\nThat grind and hustle is something we sometimes lack in Australia. I\u0026rsquo;ll give you a really good example: you go there and meet folks who have second or third jobs. As grads, they\u0026rsquo;ll be working at PwC and doing tutoring on the side, or they\u0026rsquo;ll be a nurse and work in retail on weekends. The concept of having second and third jobs is very foreign, at least in the circles I hang around in here.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not to say it\u0026rsquo;s a positive, because a whole bunch of social issues force people into that position. But their grit, determination, positivity and relentless drive really stood out to me.\nTall Poppy Syndrome in Australia # Haynes: You wonder why we don\u0026rsquo;t really see that in Australia. I was listening to an interesting episode of a podcast called the Aussie Startup Playbook. In one episode they talk about tall poppy syndrome in Australia and the fact that you always get pegged back a couple of notches here.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re seen to be working a little harder and taking that extra risk, you get your mates saying, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s Friday night. Why aren\u0026rsquo;t you going out? Why are you still working? Why are you working your tutoring gig? Why do you have your business? Why do you have X, Y, Z? Just come out with the rest of us.\u0026rdquo; Whereas in the States, especially in San Francisco, spending your weekends working on a side project or side hustle is seen as the norm.\nMaybe it is that cultural difference. In Australia, being on this side of the world and being the lucky country, we can afford to be a bit more chill about things. I never really saw that in San Francisco; it was go, go, go at all times.\nJames: I think that cultural shift is really interesting. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard that about tall poppy syndrome as well. Like you were saying, when someone starts to do a bit more, people are kind of like, \u0026ldquo;You shouldn\u0026rsquo;t be trying so hard. Just chill, man.\u0026rdquo;\nHaynes: I\u0026rsquo;m interested to hear, in your social group, how many folks have a side hustle, an e-commerce store or a second source of income on top of their nine-to-five?\nJames: None that I can think of off the top of my head. The hardest-working people I know maybe work a few extra hours at their core job, or work 10 hours a day. Not many people have something they go straight onto after work. It\u0026rsquo;s usually, \u0026ldquo;Clock out, then Netflix time.\u0026rdquo;\nHaynes: One of my mentors back in SF would tell me, \u0026ldquo;Everyone\u0026rsquo;s got their nine-to-five, but then everyone\u0026rsquo;s got their five-to-nine as well.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s stuck with me. I encourage everyone who can to at least learn another skill or side-hustle their way into something.\nLessons from Covid in New York # James: On that, you have your own side hustles and things that you do. You\u0026rsquo;re obviously involved in a lot of things in the startup world in Australia. Did this belief you have now about running a startup and how great that can be stem from your time in Silicon Valley, or was there a key moment when you thought this kind of thing would be really beneficial for people?\nHaynes: I stayed in New York for a while during the middle of the COVID pandemic, on the Lower East Side. For the Australian listeners, I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you remember Governor Cuomo having his daily press conferences.\nI was in Manhattan right in the middle of that, and I saw the impact COVID had on small businesses. That stuck with me. Picture living in Manhattan, surrounded by bodegas, delis and family stores.\nImmigrant families come to America and put their whole life savings into a tiny grocery or deli. COVID happens, the entire city is deserted and everything stops, yet you see these business owners still trying to make a living. That visual stuck with me. A big part of my values and what I\u0026rsquo;ve learned is that you should always try to work hard and have the grit and determination not just to have your nine-to-five, but to have a business on the side.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s really stuck with me. Going back to New York and seeing these family-run delis closing down, I saw the children of immigrants go to school or work their day jobs, then come back and work in their parents\u0026rsquo; business, helping with inventory, marketing and all these things.\nI took a step back and said, \u0026ldquo;Look, I can do my nine-to-five corporate job.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;ve worked with folks who have done that, and that\u0026rsquo;s certainly fine. Folks have kids, families and other commitments. But I saw the level of grit, drive and determination there and thought, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s really freaking amazing.\u0026rdquo;\nFor the grads and young folks listening, we\u0026rsquo;re probably going to work for about 40 to 50 years. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to look back at the end of that saying I didn\u0026rsquo;t take a risk, go out and build something, or have something that will last beyond my career.\nI really want to have an impact. That\u0026rsquo;s the fuel in me to say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve got your day job, but where else can you add value? What other challenges and projects can you take on?\u0026rdquo; That visual of being on the Lower East Side, with the city deserted and an immigrant family carrying a ton of debt and paying a ton in rent while still trying to make it work, stuck with me.\nThe second part is that I had a really formative economics teacher in high school. I was probably in years 10 and 11, about 16 or 17 years old, and didn\u0026rsquo;t really know what to do.\nWhen I was a kid, I wanted to be a pilot. It turns out you have to be good at physics, and I suck at physics, so that was out the door. Then I had Lucas Benda as my economics teacher, and he explained the world to me through markets, like demand and supply.\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;This is really interesting.\u0026rdquo; As I spent more time learning economics and how markets work, the power of owning assets became clear to me. Economics taught me about different forms of resources—capital, labour and natural resources. Even through university, the big thing that stuck with me was that you want to be in a position where you\u0026rsquo;re owning assets.\nA big part of that came through high school economics and playing games like Monopoly. I realised that if you own all the properties in Monopoly, and everyone passing by pays you rent, then you\u0026rsquo;re in a good spot.\nThat stuck with me. It sounds strange to say, but the ability to own assets, build businesses and own equity is something that stayed with me. Applying that now, if you work at a big bank or an accounting firm, you\u0026rsquo;re an employee.\nI wanted to see the hard work I was putting in result in a commercial and financial impact for myself. As an employee, you don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily see that because you\u0026rsquo;re getting a wage for working those 40-hour weeks. But you don\u0026rsquo;t really see, as the business grows, how you\u0026rsquo;re being directly compensated for it.\nA big part of it was owning assets and having equity. To extend that a bit more, starting a business or investing in other companies gives you that almost Rich Dad Poor Dad mindset, which everyone seems to read now.\nThose are probably the two things that got me into this.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s great that you have those experiences and things driving you towards this, and that you\u0026rsquo;re also helping other people do it.\nWhat makes a successful startup # James: Have you seen people go through this startup period, creating a company they want to turn into something big? Are there any trends among the people trying this that make them more likely to succeed?\nHaynes: I\u0026rsquo;d say there are three things, based on what I\u0026rsquo;ve recently seen among folks starting businesses in Australia and whether those businesses take off. The first is this circle of competence. You\u0026rsquo;re more likely to succeed if your business falls within an area you\u0026rsquo;re either really competent in or really passionate about.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s no secret that being a business owner is tough. You\u0026rsquo;re working weekends and long hours. If you\u0026rsquo;re not really competent, don\u0026rsquo;t have a really competent team, or aren\u0026rsquo;t passionate about what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, forget about it, because you\u0026rsquo;ll be found out. Your short-term interest and enthusiasm will last a couple of weeks or months, and then you\u0026rsquo;ll find it very difficult.\nThe second thing is what I call structural shifts. You want to have a business with structural and economic tailwinds. There\u0026rsquo;s no point making Kodak cameras in 2021, because no one\u0026rsquo;s going to buy them.\nSimilarly, you want to solve a problem in a commercially viable way, with structural tailwinds behind you. There\u0026rsquo;s a really good website called Trends.io where they show you what people are Googling.\nThey show you, on the retail side, what people are interested in, where conversations are happening, where the structural forces in the economy are shifting and which way the wind is blowing. You want to have a business going downstream rather than fighting upstream.\nA couple of really good examples come to mind. Yesterday, I was advising a company where two founders are building a business very similar to Mr Yum. Mr Yum is an Australian technology company that helps restaurants take their menus online, lets customers order via QR codes and handles reservations digitally.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s such a big problem right now. Everyone is going into restaurants, they have QR codes, and there\u0026rsquo;s a structural shift towards using technology in restaurants. These guys are starting a business to take advantage of that. It\u0026rsquo;s much easier because they\u0026rsquo;ve got this massive structural tailwind behind them, as opposed to doing something that goes against the wind.\nI hope that analogy makes sense: understanding and capitalising on structural shifts. The third thing is resources, both capital and people. Depending on what your business is, how capital-intensive or technical it is, you\u0026rsquo;ve got to have the right people, skills, financing and liquidity to survive. In the startup world, we talk about zero to one, one to 10, and 10 to 100.\nEach stage has different requirements from a resourcing perspective, and I define resources as people and finance. At each stage, you have to figure out: what are the key skills I need to go from zero to one, one to 10, and 10 to 100? What other skills do I need? Where am I lacking? Then go from there. At a very high level, those are probably the three things I see determining whether something grows.\nThe Importance of Timing for Your Startup # James: Those are really great pieces of advice. I totally resonate with what you were saying about tailwinds, because if you look at almost any company, the timing of when they came out with their product is one of the most important factors in their success. They\u0026rsquo;re always riding an underlying trend. Even Google and Facebook were riding the growth of the internet.\nIf someone starts a YouTube channel, being early on YouTube—even if they\u0026rsquo;re not that good at it—is going to be a massive factor, maybe more so than their actual skill.\nHaynes: To extend this with a few examples, let\u0026rsquo;s consider a hypothetical: would the Tim Ferriss podcast be as popular as it is now if it started today? There are so many podcasts now.\nThe Tim Ferriss Show is one of the most popular podcasts out there. He had one of the first productivity and performance-coaching-type podcasts. I\u0026rsquo;d guess that if he started it now, it probably wouldn\u0026rsquo;t become as successful in four or five years as it is today. He was one of the first people to do it and do it well.\nYou also see it with a lot of social media and tech companies where the timing is right. You can be too early or too late. You need to find that structural tailwind and have the momentum where it all comes together and all your ducks are in line.\nSome of it is skill, and some is just luck: the right place at the right time.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a good point about Tim Ferriss, because there\u0026rsquo;s a book he\u0026rsquo;s spoken about called The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, I think. One of the ideas in it is about creating your own category or niche.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the same idea: \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;ll create our own and be the first podcast talking about productivity,\u0026rdquo; which is almost what he did. Then he was able to ride the trend of podcasts becoming popular. As well as his own growth, he was riding the growth of the underlying trend.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve even seen this with note-taking software. I use Obsidian, which is similar to Notion in many ways. I started using it in March last year, quite early on, and certain people were starting to make tutorials.\nThe growth of that community has really enabled the growth of their brands, probably more than they would have grown through their own improvement if the community had stayed at the same level.\nHaynes: Another example is some of the early YouTubers. Casey Neistat, MrBeast and all these really famous folks now started probably five to 10 years ago. If Casey Neistat started today, it\u0026rsquo;s so competitive that I don\u0026rsquo;t think he\u0026rsquo;d be where he is.\nLook at TikTok and the D\u0026rsquo;Amelio sisters. If they jumped on TikTok now, would they be as successful as they have been? I don\u0026rsquo;t know. It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting hypothetical, and it supports the point that timing is everything when starting a business.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s interesting to shift from viewing a business as, \u0026ldquo;What is a problem and how can we solve it?\u0026rdquo; to, \u0026ldquo;What underlying social trends can we piggyback on and ride?\u0026rdquo; Nothing lasts forever. It will be interesting to see how some Aussie tech companies, especially Atlassian and Canva, ride that wave. A big part of it is also pivoting.\nOnce you realise you\u0026rsquo;re in your first wave and that growth is starting to slow down, where can you pivot and switch to next? Sometimes the pivot can be more successful than the original push. Apple is a good example. I feel like it\u0026rsquo;s mid-pivot: it was a computing company, but now it\u0026rsquo;s pivoting into more of a services company with the whole range of products it has. Twitter is another good one.\nIf folks want to Google successful company pivots, they\u0026rsquo;ll find examples. Sometimes structural tailwinds change, and it\u0026rsquo;s on your company to shift with them rather than resist that change.\nUpcoming Trends # James: Are there any trends where you think we\u0026rsquo;re right at the start, similar to how we were talking about the internet and different communities? What do you think is beginning at the moment, and what would you almost bet on being popular in five years?\nHaynes: Let\u0026rsquo;s first see where we\u0026rsquo;ve come from in the last six to 12 months, then extend that out for the next few years. In Australia and globally, we\u0026rsquo;ve been in lockdowns for as long as I can remember—about two years.\nEveryone is working from home, eating at home, working out at home and doing Zoom calls. There\u0026rsquo;s been a fundamental change in the way people interact, and I don\u0026rsquo;t think we\u0026rsquo;re going back to where we were previously, at least not to the same level.\nIn terms of consumer behaviour, there\u0026rsquo;s been a structural shift and greater acceptance of eating at home, getting groceries delivered at home and working out at home. My first takeaway is that we\u0026rsquo;re now more comfortable using technology to get things delivered and work remotely.\nMy second big takeaway is that I\u0026rsquo;ve seen so many people start e-commerce and Shopify stores, blogs, vlogs and TikTok accounts. Over the last two years, people have been moving from content consumption to content generation.\nI think it\u0026rsquo;s much more acceptable now for people to create content, whether it\u0026rsquo;s TikTok, websites, YouTube or podcasts. It\u0026rsquo;s becoming more socially acceptable. Those are the two big trends I\u0026rsquo;ve seen recently.\nHow will this play out in the next five to 10 years? I love tech companies. I really believe in the power of technology to disrupt dinosaur industries. If you\u0026rsquo;re in a space where you\u0026rsquo;re helping people take what was previously an outdoor function and bring it indoors, or even better do it remotely, there\u0026rsquo;s a structural tailwind.\nWhat do I mean by that? If you\u0026rsquo;re a company facilitating or enabling food delivery, remote work or remote telecommunications, you have a structural tailwind. I don\u0026rsquo;t think we\u0026rsquo;ll return to the old ways of working because that has fundamentally changed.\nThe winners are probably companies like Zoom and Peloton. The losers include commercial real estate. I\u0026rsquo;d hate to be CBRE right now. It will be interesting to see how it all works over the next five or 10 years.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re starting a company that helps people be more remote and live their best lives in a geographically agnostic way, I think you\u0026rsquo;re onto something. The second principle is that we\u0026rsquo;ve seen people become content creators, and that\u0026rsquo;s now okay and encouraged.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re starting a business that helps or advises people on marketing and content creation, including data analytics and understanding their audience metrics, there\u0026rsquo;s a big structural tailwind you can piggyback on. It is starting to become quite a congested space.\nThere are a lot of social media consultants, but even on YouTube you get certain niches, whether they\u0026rsquo;re about property or animals. No one used to vlog themselves buying a house, but now I\u0026rsquo;m seeing a lot of that.\nFigure out a way to be part of that space. I don\u0026rsquo;t know what the answer is right now, but it\u0026rsquo;s definitely a structural tailwind. It\u0026rsquo;s becoming more socially acceptable to be a content creator rather than just a content consumer. Another shift I\u0026rsquo;ve seen touches on what we discussed earlier about people having multiple jobs.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t think the future model of work is necessarily five days a week, nine-to-five. COVID and lockdowns have shown that people can get work done when they\u0026rsquo;re not in the office, and sometimes outside nine-to-five because they\u0026rsquo;re in different time zones.\nI remember when I was in the States and COVID hit, a lot of people left San Francisco and New York for other cities, Hawaii or Latin America. They still got their work done. I don\u0026rsquo;t think we\u0026rsquo;ll have this culture of, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s nine-to-five and you\u0026rsquo;ve got to be in the office,\u0026rdquo; any more. What does that mean going forward, and what are the tailwinds? I think people are more likely to take on second and third jobs. They might work at one job four days a week, another one day a week and another half a day a week, or work part-time across three jobs.\nThey might leverage sites like Fiverr and Airtasker and be in the gig economy, where they\u0026rsquo;re not really an employee but are still working.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s another takeaway from the last two years that I think will stick around for the next five or 10 years and become a structural tailwind. In terms of starting a business in this space, think about the gig economy and understand: okay, you\u0026rsquo;re a contractor; what skills do you have, and what gaps are out there that you can plug and work on?\nFor example, if you\u0026rsquo;re an engineer, can you take on freelance engineering gigs? If you\u0026rsquo;re a visual creator or artist in Colombia, can you take on a few tasks in the US or Australia and get paid in dollars while living in pesos?\nI think you\u0026rsquo;ll see a lot of that in the next few years. It\u0026rsquo;s definitely not a good time to be in commercial real estate, because folks are working remotely and things are becoming very location agnostic. Those are some of the structural tailwinds I was talking about.\nAnother point I\u0026rsquo;d like to add is that companies are realising the power of users\u0026rsquo; data. A big structural tailwind I\u0026rsquo;m seeing among large tech companies is the realisation that customer data is really valuable.\nIn acknowledging that, they\u0026rsquo;ve decided to build platforms. If you have a platform business that connects buyers and sellers, or provides multiple products and services that are interconnected in different ways, having that moat is valuable. The structural shift I\u0026rsquo;m seeing is companies asking, \u0026ldquo;How can I be a marketplace? How can I be a platform?\u0026rdquo;\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll see a lot of investor pitch decks where they say, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re a platform. We connect buyers and sellers. We rely on network benefits,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;We want to build a suite of products, not just one, and fill the value gap from the low end all the way to the nth degree.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s another change I\u0026rsquo;m seeing.\nHaynes\u0026rsquo; Favourite Failure # James: I want to take this conversation into your career. Is there a particular failure that you\u0026rsquo;d call your favourite—one where having that experience led you to greater things?\nHaynes: I\u0026rsquo;ve got several, James. I\u0026rsquo;m trying to think of the one that had the biggest impact. I joined PwC Australia as a trainee when I was 18. I applied while I was in high school and, to be honest, I barely knew what PwC was.\nI came across a website where they were looking for folks and thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll apply and see what happens.\u0026rdquo; I was lucky enough to join as a trainee and was there for just under two years. It was my first job, and the biggest feedback I received was about understanding how to communicate and deal with clients in a corporate way.\nI had some really strong feedback: \u0026ldquo;Haynes, this is how you should think about dealing with clients, how you put together a memo or, in the audit world, a workpaper. This is how you deal with client relationships.\u0026rdquo;\nAll of that was new to me. I started at the end of my first year at university. The biggest failure I had at that point wasn\u0026rsquo;t so much a failure as receiving a lot of really constructive feedback, which you never really get in high school or at university. A lot of feedback there is academic: you\u0026rsquo;ve got an essay or a test; did you do well, and how could you improve? This was my first job in a corporate workplace.\nI received constructive but strong feedback about how to deal with clients in a meeting, or how to go about fixing a client problem.\nPutting together an audit workpaper gets very technical. No one had really shown me how the corporate world works. It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting skill set: this is how you put together an audit workpaper, and this is how you interpret and apply accounting standards. The feedback along the way showed me a couple of things.\nFirst, we generally do a really poor job of teaching folks and getting them workplace-ready and job-ready. You go from high school to university, then bang, you\u0026rsquo;re at work wearing an oversized suit and sitting in meetings where you don\u0026rsquo;t really know what\u0026rsquo;s going on.\nI\u0026rsquo;m sure it has got a lot better now, but that transition from high school straight into the workplace was very steep for me, and I probably made a ton of mistakes. The second thing I learned was that audit probably wasn\u0026rsquo;t, and still isn\u0026rsquo;t, for me.\nI was in audit there, and one of my first clients was a listed fund manager, an infrastructure fund called Hastings Funds Management. I realised pretty early that audit wasn\u0026rsquo;t what I wanted to do for the next 40 years.\nWhen I first joined, I had this misconception that your first job is basically what you\u0026rsquo;ll do for the next 40 years and your career is linear. That\u0026rsquo;s not the case. At that point I realised audit wasn\u0026rsquo;t for me.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t wake up every morning saying, \u0026ldquo;This is what I want to do for the rest of my career.\u0026rdquo; I wanted something more engaging than retrospective work for clients. I felt like I wanted to build my own thing and do my own thing. My biggest failure wasn\u0026rsquo;t one event, but learning how to think and communicate in a corporate way while putting clients first. That was a big takeaway for me.\nAlong the way, I\u0026rsquo;ve made so many mistakes. I remember one time, with my first client, one of my senior consultants told me to print a few files and documents.\nIt was probably my first week at PwC. I said, \u0026ldquo;Okay, fine. I\u0026rsquo;ll go print some stuff,\u0026rdquo; and walked into the printer room with these massive corporate printers. I was used to having a normal printer at home and knew how that worked. The senior said, \u0026ldquo;Print this stuff. It has to be colour, double-sided,\u0026rdquo; and gave me a whole bunch of instructions. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Yes, I\u0026rsquo;ve got this. How hard can it be? Print some papers and I\u0026rsquo;m done.\u0026rdquo; I walked into the printer room and was intimidated by this massive thing.\nYou needed a card to swipe in and use the printer. It was nuts. I spent 45 minutes in the printer room trying to figure out how it worked. I was like, \u0026ldquo;What am I doing? I can\u0026rsquo;t print this, and it\u0026rsquo;s taken me 45 minutes. What is the senior consultant going to think of me?\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m done. This isn\u0026rsquo;t going to work.\u0026rdquo; I think she came over thinking, \u0026ldquo;What is Haynes doing? Why is he taking this long to print a few pieces of paper?\u0026rdquo; She helped me out in the end. That was a big realisation that there\u0026rsquo;s so much I don\u0026rsquo;t know.\nI should be open and honest and say, \u0026ldquo;Look, I don\u0026rsquo;t know how to do this thing. Can you help me out?\u0026rdquo; I don\u0026rsquo;t think I\u0026rsquo;m the only one in this situation. A lot of grads listening will be thinking, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got these really dumb, silly questions that I should know the answer to, but I don\u0026rsquo;t, because I\u0026rsquo;ve never experienced this before.\u0026rdquo;\nMy advice is to suck it up and ask for help. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter how silly it is. That was an interesting experience.\nJames: Ask those questions early, because when you\u0026rsquo;re six months into a role and haven\u0026rsquo;t asked, people assume you know what you\u0026rsquo;re doing. It becomes even more difficult to ask then, so get them out early.\nHaynes: I always encourage people to ask questions upfront and early, because that\u0026rsquo;s much easier. It\u0026rsquo;s a better outcome than waiting until the end and saying, \u0026ldquo;Sorry, I didn\u0026rsquo;t know this, so I\u0026rsquo;ve wasted all my time spinning my wheels.\u0026rdquo;\nI advise all my teams and mentees to be upfront and own the areas where they need help, because we were all grads at one point. Think about some of the most inspirational and intimidating folks you might have worked with, and realise that everyone was an intern.\nEveryone was a grad. We\u0026rsquo;ve all been there. We sometimes overthink things, so remove that and be direct in seeking help.\nQuestions to ask when moving roles # James: Speaking of questions, you\u0026rsquo;ve moved around a little bit and found out that audit wasn\u0026rsquo;t for you. When you\u0026rsquo;re somewhere you don\u0026rsquo;t want to be and looking for somewhere else to go, what questions would you ask people to prepare to move into something you might prefer?\nHaynes: You don\u0026rsquo;t really know what something is like unless you\u0026rsquo;ve experienced it. There are a couple of things you can ask folks in that role or company before you join: what\u0026rsquo;s the career trajectory like? Is the company growing? What\u0026rsquo;s the culture like?\nWhy is this role open? Has someone left? If so, why did they leave? What\u0026rsquo;s the message? What\u0026rsquo;s the vision of the key founders and executives? These are investigative questions you can ask to figure out whether something is the right fit for you.\nOne important thing to remember when interviewing for jobs is that they\u0026rsquo;re interviewing you as much as you\u0026rsquo;re interviewing them. Understand the culture. Do folks go out at the end of the week to have dinner, or does everyone do their own thing? Do they appreciate you asking for help, or is it more independent? Is it a big team or a small team? What does career progression look like? Where do people in this role end up in five or 10 years? Those are the questions I\u0026rsquo;d ask and think about.\nBefore I joined Airwallex and accepted the role, I was lucky to know a couple of people who already worked there. I reached out and said, \u0026ldquo;Look, I\u0026rsquo;m interviewing. What\u0026rsquo;s the culture like? Do you enjoy working there? What are your hours like?\u0026rdquo;\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll get the HR spiel, but you really want to figure out what\u0026rsquo;s going on. My advice is to reach out to folks who work there, especially if you have mutual connections on LinkedIn. Understand where the company is growing, where you would end up after five years in the role, and what skills you would have.\nYour career is not linear # Haynes: One thing I\u0026rsquo;d wrap this with, James, is the context that your career isn\u0026rsquo;t linear. This touches on what I said previously. When I first started, I thought a career was a linear trajectory.\nYou go from grad to analyst, senior analyst and manager. I hate to break it to everyone, but it definitely doesn\u0026rsquo;t work like that. I think of it as a roller-coaster. There are phases where you\u0026rsquo;ll go in a straight line, but then you might pivot to another company or change roles.\nYou might change careers, have a family or kids, take some time off, take a couple of steps sideways or skip a couple of steps. The point is that it isn\u0026rsquo;t linear. I think career counsellors do everyone a disservice by saying, \u0026ldquo;Okay, this is the job you want, and this is the linear path to get there.\u0026rdquo;\nI don\u0026rsquo;t think that\u0026rsquo;s necessarily the case. It\u0026rsquo;s more about developing your experiences and skill sets. If you want to be an audit partner, it might seem linear, but a lot of folks now work in industry for a couple of years and then come back. If you want to be a CFO, there are different ways to go about it.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got the banking route, the controller route, the VP route or the FP\u0026amp;A route. Type A personalities who are about to enter the workforce often see things as linear. My strong advice is not to see it that way.\nYou may have kids at some point, travel, take time off to do your own thing or set up your own business. That\u0026rsquo;s okay. I was telling my sister this the other day, because she\u0026rsquo;s applying for grad jobs right now: it isn\u0026rsquo;t linear.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re allowed not to know exactly what you want. It\u0026rsquo;s okay to try different things, sample different jobs and see what you like and don\u0026rsquo;t like. I\u0026rsquo;m a big fan of reaching out to people in the jobs you aspire to get and picking their brains over coffee. Say, \u0026ldquo;Look, this is why I\u0026rsquo;m interested in the role.\n\u0026ldquo;I want to understand what your day-to-day is. This is why I think I\u0026rsquo;d be a good fit, but before I invest my time and some of my career, I want to understand whether this is the right fit for me.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;ll avoid a whole load of mistakes if you use this coffee-chat approach to understanding what a career is all about. That\u0026rsquo;s one way to go about it.\nAnother friend of mine decided to do a master\u0026rsquo;s. He worked in investment banking and realised he didn\u0026rsquo;t want to do that long-term. His passion was engineering, so he did a master\u0026rsquo;s in engineering. During the program he realised, \u0026ldquo;This is actually what I want to do.\u0026rdquo;\nIt validated his interests and passions and confirmed that this was what he wanted to do for the foreseeable future. Now he\u0026rsquo;s working in data analytics and computer science, and he really enjoys it. Postgraduate study is another option.\nFinding Mentors in Australia # James: You mentioned so much, but the question, \u0026ldquo;If I get this role, where do I end up? Where have people who previously did this gone?\u0026rdquo; is a really great one.\nWhat you said about sitting down with people for coffee is also really important. You don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily have to know them before reaching out. That\u0026rsquo;s likely something you\u0026rsquo;ve done too: reaching out to people who work there and with whom, as you said, you might only have mutual connections.\nLots of people will happily sit down with you. Nowadays, you can easily tee up a half-hour call, and most people will slot you into their schedule.\nHaynes: It amazes me how little that happens in Australia. Students or young grads reaching out to people and asking for coffee to pick their brains happens surprisingly rarely. In the States, it\u0026rsquo;s almost a regular thing.\nAlumni and other folks reach out to you almost every other day. Here, I don\u0026rsquo;t think that has caught on yet. The States also has a stronger college alumni culture. If you went to a certain university, you\u0026rsquo;ll actively reach out and introduce yourself to people who attended it, regardless of where they are now.\nThat doesn\u0026rsquo;t really happen in Australia. It might be because there are fewer universities here than in the States, and people don\u0026rsquo;t have that same—not patriotism, but sense of belonging to their university.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re a young student listening to this and applying to a company where people have mutual connections with you or went to the same university, flick them an email.\nThe worst case is that they leave you on read and don\u0026rsquo;t respond. You haven\u0026rsquo;t lost anything. The best case is that you have a really engaging conversation. Whether they steer you towards the role or away from it, you\u0026rsquo;ll learn something you probably wouldn\u0026rsquo;t otherwise have known and potentially save yourself from a mistake.\nI strongly advise people to do that.\nJames: This applies both to reaching out about certain roles you want and to seeking mentorship if you want to improve in your current role. Because it\u0026rsquo;s so underutilised in Australia, as you said, there\u0026rsquo;s even more value in it. The people you\u0026rsquo;re contacting don\u0026rsquo;t usually receive these approaches, and they\u0026rsquo;re often more than happy to help.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to utilise that while it\u0026rsquo;s still uncommon.\nHow to reach out to people # Haynes: I can\u0026rsquo;t think of a better way to differentiate yourself from the pool of graduates. Graduate crowds probably don\u0026rsquo;t know this, but when you apply for a job, you\u0026rsquo;re one of thousands of applicants, and it\u0026rsquo;s unrealistic for people to go through thousands of applications.\nTo the extent that you can differentiate yourself, that\u0026rsquo;s a huge plus. There was a Tim Ferriss podcast about networking and how to approach people. He talked about it more from an entrepreneurial perspective, but I think the principles still apply.\nYou have to be careful about cold-emailing people and saying, \u0026ldquo;Can I pick your brain?\u0026rdquo; Folks are generally busy, and you need to be conscious of their time and calendars. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to structure the approach. They look for two things.\nOne is: is this person legitimate? If I say yes, will they take it seriously and show up on time? Do they have a background, whether tertiary or work experience, that validates their interest? That\u0026rsquo;s number one.\nThe second is: what is this person looking to get out of it? What do they mean by \u0026ldquo;pick my brain\u0026rdquo;? Do they just want a coffee chat and a referral, or do they genuinely have a specific question they want help with?\nWhen cold-reaching out to people, be very clear about what you want to get out of it. You have to be wary of people\u0026rsquo;s time.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re looking for a referral, say, \u0026ldquo;Look, I want to learn more about the role and some of its challenges. Then, if you\u0026rsquo;re happy, can you refer me to someone?\u0026rdquo; If you have a specific question, let them know. Being efficient is the name of the game.\nJames: Being genuine is so important, as is being specific with the ask. It\u0026rsquo;s something I try to do when asking people to come on the podcast, which is a good exercise for this kind of thing: lead with some kind of value or something happening in their life.\nThen give some context about why you\u0026rsquo;re reaching out, and finish with the specific things you want to discuss. It shows that you\u0026rsquo;ve made an effort to investigate them, what they\u0026rsquo;re about and what they do.\nIf you put in little effort and they say yes, they\u0026rsquo;ve almost set that as the bar for the people they\u0026rsquo;ll speak to. People don\u0026rsquo;t want to set it so low that they\u0026rsquo;ll say yes to anyone who says, \u0026ldquo;Hey, can I speak to you?\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;ll set it higher and only speak to people who are genuinely interested in what they do.\nHaynes: You have to put yourself in their shoes. When you\u0026rsquo;ve got a tight schedule, you want to make it impactful. The best way to do that is to be clear about your objectives and what you want to get out of it.\nHaynes\u0026rsquo; Advice for Graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question for you, Haynes. We\u0026rsquo;ve covered so much in this conversation, but I want to ask the question I ask all the guests. If you were graduating and about to start your grad role next year, what advice, or one piece of advice, would you give yourself?\nHaynes: I\u0026rsquo;d tell myself that it\u0026rsquo;s important to keep my personal interests and hobbies and not lose them when going into a grad role.\nThe process of getting a grad job is well documented, and there are enough resources out there. What we don\u0026rsquo;t talk about is the importance of keeping your personality and hobbies as you join a big company. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen this so many times: you go through university with all these hobbies, interests and passions, then enter the workforce and it becomes all-consuming.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s nine-to-five, but not really nine-to-five. It depends on your role and company, but you\u0026rsquo;ll be working long hours. Sometimes you\u0026rsquo;ll work on weekends and miss birthdays and dinners. Looking back, my view is that you want to keep your passions, interests and hobbies with you for as long as you can.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t let your work life take over your whole life, because it\u0026rsquo;s easy to do. There is always work; there will always be work. But if you\u0026rsquo;re into sport, the gym, dancing, teaching or mentoring, or have a business—whatever gives you joy and satisfaction—you need to keep that, because there will be times when work isn\u0026rsquo;t great.\nWhether you\u0026rsquo;ve had a tough week or you\u0026rsquo;re really stressed, you rely on your personal hobbies and interests to pick you up. For a lot of people, it\u0026rsquo;s their relationship with their partner, their faith or working out at the gym. The crazier work gets, the more important those parts of your life become in keeping you grounded and sane.\nIf your work becomes all-encompassing and there\u0026rsquo;s nothing else, you\u0026rsquo;ll burn out very quickly. You\u0026rsquo;ll also look back and realise that all you\u0026rsquo;ve done is work and you\u0026rsquo;ve got nothing else to show for it. My advice for all these optimistic 21-year-old grads is: keep your hobbies, interests and passions.\nHave work fit around those, rather than making it the only thing you have in life. It also makes you much more interesting and knowledgeable. As you become more senior, relationships become super important in the workplace.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll draw on those experiences—travelling, having a business or working out—to build workplace relationships as you become more senior. That\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;d recommend.\nCharlie Munger\u0026rsquo;s Lattice Theory # Haynes: There are a couple of principles I\u0026rsquo;d like to cover as well. One of the things that has stuck with me is Charlie Munger\u0026rsquo;s mental models. I\u0026rsquo;m a big fan of Charlie Munger.\nFor folks who don\u0026rsquo;t know who he is, he\u0026rsquo;s almost the second in charge at Berkshire, helping out Warren Buffett, and is one of the smartest people you\u0026rsquo;ll ever meet. He has this interesting mental model called the lattice theory. I think it\u0026rsquo;s really relevant for grads and folks listening to the show. Lattice theory is about developing niches in one area while also developing experience and skill sets in another, totally unrelated area.\nYou put those together and find where they overlap. It\u0026rsquo;s in that overlap where you\u0026rsquo;ll have a lot of growth. What do I mean by this? It\u0026rsquo;s a really good case for entrepreneurs as well. If you\u0026rsquo;re an accountant but also interested in dance and the arts, figure out the overlaps. Can you be a financial adviser for a creative dance company? You\u0026rsquo;ll find a ton of opportunities in those overlaps. If you\u0026rsquo;re an engineer but also into design, figure out what overlaps exist between those industries and dive in there.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re a builder but also really into cars, figure out the overlaps and dive into them. I call it the lattice theory. It\u0026rsquo;s this mental model of figuring out your current skills, interests and passions, while also developing something else that\u0026rsquo;s totally unrelated.\nDevelop skills and expertise in that other area. Over time, you\u0026rsquo;ll find a lot of growth and opportunity in the overlap between those seemingly unrelated areas. A really good example is a YouTuber called Ali Abdaal.\nI\u0026rsquo;m sure you\u0026rsquo;ve probably heard of him; I feel like a lot of people have. He combines medicine, being a medical student and being an entrepreneur. He\u0026rsquo;s able to combine these seemingly unrelated things and do so well because there aren\u0026rsquo;t many people in that space right now.\nIf you can combine two or three different niches, find the overlapping area and enter that space, you might find that you\u0026rsquo;re the only person there, and you\u0026rsquo;ll do really well. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure if that makes sense, but it\u0026rsquo;s a mental model that has stuck with me for a while.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about Tim Ferriss a few times today, but I\u0026rsquo;ve heard him describe that too. There\u0026rsquo;s a guy called Scott Adams—I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you\u0026rsquo;ve heard of him—who talks about stacking skills. As you said, the crossover between things allows you to excel. If you\u0026rsquo;re a good accountant and a good public speaker, for example, maybe you\u0026rsquo;re a really good public speaker about accounting.\nAs soon as you stack two or three of those skills, you can become one of the best few people at that niche thing, because there won\u0026rsquo;t be many people who are also good at that combination.\nHaynes: I always give this advice to my creative friends, whether they\u0026rsquo;re musicians or chefs. If you can find another skill set in which you don\u0026rsquo;t have to be an expert, but are remotely proficient, see where the overlaps are and whether you can be in that overlapping space. There aren\u0026rsquo;t many people there, and you\u0026rsquo;ll find a lot of opportunities. I encourage grads to think about that too.\nThe Fancy Title Career Mistake # Haynes: The other point I wanted to discuss is the misconception I often see about working for fancy companies and having fancy titles.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s natural for folks to want to work for large, prestigious companies with fancy titles. My advice is to do a 180 and veer away from that. You\u0026rsquo;re better off working for really competent managers and inspirational people than for the biggest consulting company, where you\u0026rsquo;re a small cog in a bigger ecosystem.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not to say you won\u0026rsquo;t learn anything by joining the big banks or consulting companies. You\u0026rsquo;ll get a fantastic grounding in how businesses work.\nBut if I\u0026rsquo;m an intern or about to start my first grad job, I\u0026rsquo;d place more emphasis on the person I\u0026rsquo;m working for, the role, and the skills and experience I\u0026rsquo;ll gain than on the name on my CV. I\u0026rsquo;m part of the Earlywork community, a Slack group of Aussie founders and people working in startup companies. Most people haven\u0026rsquo;t heard of many of those companies.\nIf you work at one of these startups and go to a dinner party saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m head of growth at this startup,\u0026rdquo; no one is going to know what the company is. That\u0026rsquo;s okay. You\u0026rsquo;re learning a lot and building all these skills. As a grad early in your career, you\u0026rsquo;re better off learning as much as possible and being challenged in as many ways as possible.\nIn my view, that is better than working in a large company where you\u0026rsquo;re doing the same thing repeatedly. It might sound great on your CV, but I\u0026rsquo;m a big believer in developing your skills and having really interesting experiences. You generally get that in smaller companies and startups, where you\u0026rsquo;re working on a million things at once.\nYou might be a software engineer, but at a startup with 10 people you\u0026rsquo;re also helping with product design and go-to-market strategy. You\u0026rsquo;re wearing multiple hats, and that\u0026rsquo;s where you get a lot of growth.\nWhen I joined Airwallex, we were a Series C company. I joined as a finance manager, but did a whole bunch of work on tax, go-to-market, audit, financial control, budgeting and FP\u0026amp;A—things you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily see at a bigger company.\nAt a bigger company, you\u0026rsquo;d have one person looking at each of those things individually. Connected to that, find someone who inspires you and work for them. If you want to enter a particular profession and there\u0026rsquo;s someone who\u0026rsquo;s absolutely killing it, is super competent and whom you admire and respect, reach out and say, \u0026ldquo;Look, can I shadow you for a week? Can I work in your team?\u0026rdquo;\nSee if you can make that happen. I feel strongly that folks should stay clear of working at a company just for the name on their CV, and instead work there for the skills and experiences they\u0026rsquo;ll develop along the way.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve spoken to people on the podcast about generalisation and specialisation before. From what I\u0026rsquo;ve read online and in forums, a lot of people who become successful have a general background and then become almost a generalised specialist. They start as a generalist and become a specialist in one area while remaining quite broad.\nHaynes: The mental model for this is, I think, called the T theory. You want to be broad as a generalist, but specialise by going deep in one area. Touching on what we said earlier, if you can go deep in one or two areas and find where they overlap, you\u0026rsquo;ll have opportunities that not many people have.\nNot many people are in those overlapping areas. That\u0026rsquo;s something that has worked well for me, and I hope I can encourage people to do something similar.\nOutro # James: The things we\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about today—mentoring, mental models, generalisation, going overseas, seeking opportunities and finding the right boss—are fundamental for grads to know as they begin their careers. They can save you a lot of time and headaches if you\u0026rsquo;re conscious of them and apply them early, helping you get on the right path as you begin your career.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s so much value here. Haynes, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today.\nHaynes: No worries, James. This was great. If anyone has any questions, feel free to shoot me a LinkedIn DM or find me at haynes@87advisory.com. Eighty-seven is the number 87; it\u0026rsquo;s the name of my advisory business. Feel free to reach out.\nI\u0026rsquo;m always happy to help.\nJames: Great. We\u0026rsquo;ll have links to all Haynes\u0026rsquo;s stuff, his contact details and everything in the show notes. Thanks so much again, Haynes, for coming on. We\u0026rsquo;ll see you around.\nHaynes: Awesome. Thanks, James. Talk to you soon.\nJames: Thanks so much for listening to that episode with Haynes D\u0026rsquo;Souza. He\u0026rsquo;s so passionate about graduates and graduate careers. We covered so much in that episode, and so many little nuggets can make a big difference in your life and career.\nIf you want to find out more about Haynes, follow the links in the description. If you want to find out more about this episode and see my takeaways, go to GraduateTheory.com and find the link to this episode. The link will also be in the show notes. If you want to get this information and my takeaways from different episodes straight to your inbox, please consider subscribing to the newsletter.\nAlternatively, you can subscribe on whatever podcast platform you\u0026rsquo;re listening on. Listening and sharing really help grow the podcast, so I\u0026rsquo;d appreciate it if you could share this episode with a friend and get the good message out there.\nThanks so much again for listening today. And I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 11\n","date":"3 January 2022","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/11-on-the-graduate-experience-and-careers-with-haynes-dsouza/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 11\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On The Graduate Experience and Careers with Haynes D'Souza","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → James is the host of Graduate Theory. He studied Maths and Finance at the University of Adelaide, before moving to Melbourne in 2021 to start as a Technology Graduate at ANZ. He is passionate about all things careers and motivating people to squeeze the juice out of life.\nConnect With Me # LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-fricker-1795098b/\nSubstack - https://jamesfricker.substack.com/\nWebsite - https://www.jfricker.com/\nEmail - james at graduatetheory dot com\nEpisode Takeaways # Perhaps I am a little biased here since I was the one talking most of the episode! Here are some of my takeaways 👇\nClick Here to Sign Up\nLive by Design, Not by Default # One of the key things that we discussed is intentionality. Be intentional with what you do and don\u0026rsquo;t just do things for the sake of it.\nWhat this comes down to is crystal clarity on where you want to be in life. From this, you can derive the best path for you. Without this path, you lack clarity and intentionality.\nGet Involved # Life is not a single-player game. It\u0026rsquo;s up to you to get out there and create opportunities for yourself. No one is coming to save you. No one is coming to give you that perfect opportunity. It is on you to go out and take the life that you want.\nInspiration # Joe asked me what I want Graduate Theory to be known for. I want it to inspire people over Australia and around the world. I want people to look at the guests that I have on my show and see that what they have done isn\u0026rsquo;t actually that special and that you can do it too. I want people to know that the life they want is within reach and that with a little hard work and intentionality, you can live the life that you truly desire.\nThings Discussed # Indistractable - Nir Eyal\nDeep Work - Cal Newport\nHigh Performance Habits - Brendan Burchard\nShow Notes # 00:00 Intro\n03:07 Why Graduate Theory?\n06:39 What have you learnt from the podcast so far?\n11:07 Which interview has been your favourite?\n14:37 How to be productive\n20:08 My Favourite Book\n25:19 James\u0026rsquo; Favourite Failures\n39:44 How does James want to be described?\n41:55 How would younger James react to Graduate Theory?\n51:43 James\u0026rsquo; Tip For Graduates\n54:03 Outro\n","date":"27 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/10-on-graduate-theory/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → James is the host of Graduate Theory. He studied Maths and Finance at the University of Adelaide, before moving to Melbourne in 2021 to start as a Technology Graduate at ANZ. He is passionate about all things careers and motivating people to squeeze the juice out of life.\n","title":"On Graduate Theory","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 10\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode marks the 10th episode of Graduate Theory, and I thought, what better way to recognise this milestone than to get to know me a little bit more and in a bit more detail?\nToday\u0026rsquo;s episode is a flipped episode, so I will not be the one asking the questions. I\u0026rsquo;ve got Joe from the very first episode of the podcast to come and interview me. It\u0026rsquo;s going to be an interesting episode. You\u0026rsquo;re going to find out a lot more about me, the things I like and my opinions on a lot of things.\nI hope this is insightful and gives you a bit more context about what I\u0026rsquo;m like behind the scenes and what I\u0026rsquo;m trying to get out of this experience and this podcast.\nEven though I\u0026rsquo;m the one doing a lot of the talking, I still think there are some useful career lessons in this episode. I hope you enjoy. I know Christmas is coming soon too, so I\u0026rsquo;m wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas. If you want to get episodes like this straight to your inbox, please go to GraduateTheory.com and subscribe to the newsletter. When you\u0026rsquo;re there, you can get every episode, along with my thoughts and takeaways, straight to your inbox.\nI hope you enjoy this episode and finding out more about me.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a special episode: it\u0026rsquo;s episode number 10. I thought, what better way to commemorate or recognise 10 episodes of the podcast than to flip the tables a little bit? Instead of me interviewing people and finding out more about them, I thought it would be nice to turn the tables and give the audience—the listener, you guys—some insight into me and the context behind my starting this podcast.\nWhat are the reasons I did it? Where do I actually come from? What do I do? What are my thoughts on life and all that kind of stuff? To help me with this today, I\u0026rsquo;ve got on the line here Joe Wehbe, who some people might remember from the very first episode of the podcast. Joe, welcome to the show today.\nJoe: Good to be back. Thank you very much. It\u0026rsquo;s a special privilege.\nJames: Fantastic. It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on. Like I said, today it\u0026rsquo;s going to be a flipped classroom or flipped podcast, so Joe\u0026rsquo;s going to be the one asking me questions. Thanks so much for coming on today, Joe. I\u0026rsquo;m excited to dive in with you and see where we go.\nJoe: Absolutely. It\u0026rsquo;s a good opportunity for me. My podcast is all solo, so I get to try interviewing for a change. We\u0026rsquo;ll see how we go. You\u0026rsquo;re very brave in giving me this platform—very, very brave—and I\u0026rsquo;m very sure I\u0026rsquo;ve listened to every episode that\u0026rsquo;s out so far.\nI feel qualified in that sense, and I think it\u0026rsquo;s been an amazing start. Graduate Theory is such a great podcast, and it has such a great calibre of guests already. I think it is exciting for everyone listening to learn a little bit more about you.\nWhy Graduate Theory? # Joe: I reckon we just jump straight in. The obvious place to start is: what was the inspiration for it? Where did that start? What was the first spark—the first little speck of this on the radar?\nJames: The first time I thought about doing something like this was in 2020, and I think it was around April. It was during the first big lockdowns, which I think were all across Australia at that time. We were locked inside, and I was sitting there thinking.\nI was in my final year of university and finished at the end of 2020. I was thinking about life after university: what was that going to involve? I realised, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t really know anything about the workforce or how to grow my career. How does that even work?\u0026rdquo; I knew nothing. I thought there were people I could speak to and connections I had at the time. I could speak to someone who had had a successful career, perhaps sit down with them and ask them some questions about it.\nI had a lot of these ideas floating around in my head, but I put the podcast on pause. I honestly didn\u0026rsquo;t have the guts to do it. I thought it wasn\u0026rsquo;t going to work and was going to be a failure. I had a lot of self-doubt about this kind of thing: whether it would be worth my time, whether people would listen and all that kind of stuff.\nFast-forward probably a year and a half. In that period, I got a graduate job in Melbourne and moved there from Adelaide. The idea came up again when we had another lockdown in August. Maybe lockdowns are just a recipe for deep thinking. I don\u0026rsquo;t know.\nJoe: And podcasts.\nJames: Hopefully. We were in lockdown again, and I thought, \u0026ldquo;This is something I\u0026rsquo;m still thinking about.\u0026rdquo; It had been on my mind a few times through the year. It came to me: \u0026ldquo;This is something I keep thinking about and feel drawn to, but am I really going to go through with this or not?\u0026rdquo;\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;In five or 10 years, I\u0026rsquo;m going to wish that I had at least tried this and seen how it went.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;m really glad that I have done it and for the lessons I\u0026rsquo;ve taken from the people I\u0026rsquo;ve spoken to already. Having these conversations has been a win-win. I get to speak to fascinating people about things I want to know about, such as growing your career. It\u0026rsquo;s also good for listeners because they can get in on those conversations as well.\nI thought at the time, and especially now, that there is growing transparency with successful people. That is especially important in Australia because a lot of the things I was reading and watching, and a lot of the podcasts you might listen to, feature people in America whose stories aren\u0026rsquo;t as relatable. I thought that was a good reason to do this as well.\nI found there wasn\u0026rsquo;t a place to go where I could find people who had gone to the same uni as me, done the same graduate experience as me or things like that. They were in this completely different environment. I thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t think this really exists, or at least I haven\u0026rsquo;t been exposed to it. I could be the one to do this and really drive it.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s my reasoning for starting it, and I think it\u0026rsquo;s been a great success so far.\nWhat have you learnt from the podcast so far? # Joe: It\u0026rsquo;s fascinating. The same things really hold most people back from anything. I think it would be very relatable to anyone listening. Maybe they\u0026rsquo;re not thinking about starting a podcast, but it might be their next promotion, going for a graduate job or navigating the later stages of university. There are many fear-evoking situations where you think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not good enough.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a natural part of progression. When you\u0026rsquo;re taking a step up, it\u0026rsquo;s growth you\u0026rsquo;re not used to, so there is always an adjustment and normally some doubt.\nIt might be interesting for anyone listening to know a bit more about James outside of Graduate Theory. You\u0026rsquo;re working in a typical graduate role too, which I\u0026rsquo;m very aware of. How have the nine episodes so far impacted the way you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about things and your confidence? Maybe not materially, because it hasn\u0026rsquo;t been that long—it isn\u0026rsquo;t like you\u0026rsquo;ve jumped industries or whatever—but have you noticed any change in how you think about work, your career or any of these typical things we all navigate, based on the advice and lessons from the guests?\nJames: One of the main things I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt comes back to what you were saying about self-doubt. It has been a common thread through a lot of the guests I\u0026rsquo;ve had on. They\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned doing something and not being sure whether they should do it, doubting themselves, experiencing imposter syndrome or all those other terms for essentially the same thing: you don\u0026rsquo;t think you can do something.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s been surprising because I know I\u0026rsquo;ve had those experiences, and one of the things I\u0026rsquo;ve asked them is, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve had these things. Do you have those, and if so, how did you deal with them?\u0026rdquo; It has been common across a lot of the guests. They\u0026rsquo;ve all said, \u0026ldquo;I had that experience in this situation,\u0026rdquo; or whatever it was.\nThat has been insightful because it shows me that it is very normal to lack confidence when an opportunity comes up or when you\u0026rsquo;re thinking of doing something. Andrew, the guest I most recently interviewed, talked about how it gets easier over time as you recognise when you\u0026rsquo;re in that mode of doubting yourself and then push through it.\nHaving started the podcast, I\u0026rsquo;ve done that to some degree. Combining that experience with hearing all my guests talk about it, I\u0026rsquo;ve taken away that self-doubt is natural and something you can push past. Moments where you successfully push past it can build up, give you momentum and allow you to continue pushing yourself.\nJoe: Well said. Andrew\u0026rsquo;s point there is incredible. I feel the same way. I guess he and I are probably the same age. I always say that once you\u0026rsquo;ve gone through a big challenge or tried something new three different times, you have enough examples to look back and see, \u0026ldquo;I always doubt myself in those ways.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;ve established the pattern, but it\u0026rsquo;s hard. People your age or slightly younger—the typical listener—can easily hear that in theory, but until you\u0026rsquo;ve actually gone through and done it, you haven\u0026rsquo;t crossed that hurdle yet. It\u0026rsquo;s very natural.\nYou must get so much value out of the ritual of regularly talking to people who are just outside your situation. Even though they\u0026rsquo;re more advanced and have maybe, quote unquote, achieved more, you must thrive on the chance to take a beat, step out of your day-to-day, talk to them and get a reminder from their experience. I\u0026rsquo;m sure it\u0026rsquo;s very powerful for your life.\nI\u0026rsquo;ll save you the hard question, because I know episode one was your favourite, with Joe Wehbe, the incredible author and thinker. But—\nWhich interview has been your favourite? # Joe: Apart from episode one, what has been your favourite interview so far? What stood out?\nJames: Obviously episode one won that! No, I think each episode has some unique value. It\u0026rsquo;s been cool that there has been some crossover between all the episodes, but each one has still had a differentiating factor that provides a unique perspective on a particular problem or something you might experience in the workplace.\nFrom that perspective, all the episodes have great value. For me, one that sticks out is the episode with Darren. We talked about some deeper psychology—I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether that\u0026rsquo;s the right term—rather than surface-level productivity tips or hacks. We were really diving into—\nJoe: Something underlying, almost spiritual. I know that\u0026rsquo;s a bit of a woo-woo word.\nJoe: People who listened to that episode will know it was a very grounded, not fluffy, conversation.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;re spot on. Even though it gets spiritual in some sense, it is really quite fundamental. The more I\u0026rsquo;ve read about that kind of thing, the more I feel like this is what to focus on to create lasting change in yourself.\nThat episode was a great example, and we did get quite deep into that stuff. From that perspective, that one—and definitely that whole genre of spirituality, as you called it—is really interesting.\nJoe: Whatever it is, it\u0026rsquo;s powerful. You\u0026rsquo;re preaching to the converted with me on that stuff. I absolutely agree. It is important to canvass all those levels. If this language is helpful, maybe the distinction is tactics: the specific, day-to-day, in-the-trenches work. Tactics normally serve a strategy, which is the overarching game plan. Some of those deeper things sit at a higher level. They almost dictate your goals and the energy with which you approach things. That\u0026rsquo;s why they\u0026rsquo;re so powerful.\nThings cascade down from there. Once you\u0026rsquo;ve established, \u0026ldquo;I want to get a graduate job at X company,\u0026rdquo; that\u0026rsquo;s the goal. Then you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about strategy: \u0026ldquo;How am I going to get there? I need contacts and so on.\u0026rdquo; Then you might start thinking about tactics. It does cascade down that way, so the information at each stage is helpful.\nThat comes back to the value of the podcast approach you\u0026rsquo;re taking, because you have different people who probably specialise in different parts. I remember listening to that Darren conversation and thinking, \u0026ldquo;Wow, this guy\u0026rsquo;s just wiped the floor with me. I need to become a better guest.\u0026rdquo; But then I loved Oscar talking about listening. I haven\u0026rsquo;t heard many people talk about it. Listening is one of the most under-respected skills. Everyone knows it\u0026rsquo;s important, but no one appreciates how important it is, and he talked about it in such depth and occupied a really good niche.\nThat variety is really important, which is why everyone has to show up every week, I guess: you don\u0026rsquo;t know which thing you don\u0026rsquo;t know about yet. Maybe we\u0026rsquo;ll slide into some of the other lower-level stuff and unpack it a little bit.\nHow to be productive # Joe: Do you have any key productivity tips—things that help you on the more day-to-day, micro side—that are top of mind and that you want to share with the listeners?\nJames: This is something I\u0026rsquo;ve done in the last couple of weeks to a month and have almost rediscovered. There\u0026rsquo;s a guy called Nir Eyal—I think that\u0026rsquo;s how you say his name—who wrote a book called Indistractable. I was listening to him on a podcast. I\u0026rsquo;ve read his book in the past, but for some reason, this particular podcast made the idea click with me much more.\nHis whole idea of productivity is to calendarise a lot of your life. He takes it to quite an extreme, where he calendarises literally everything. Every minute of his day is in the calendar: he\u0026rsquo;ll have an hour to be with the kids, an hour to do this or whatever. That is quite rigid, so I don\u0026rsquo;t do it to that degree.\nBut I like the idea of not having a to-do list and not just working through things ad hoc. It\u0026rsquo;s more like, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to spend an hour on this, and however much I get done is what it\u0026rsquo;s going to be.\u0026rdquo; That idea of time blocking is something Cal Newport also talks about.\nI was researching this a few weeks ago. He has this notebook—a day-planning journal—where you can do time blocking in hard copy. He talks about this exact idea. Maybe you start with a to-do list, but its actual implementation is in your time: you might spend 25 minutes doing this, 25 minutes doing that and so on.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve found recently that this has enabled me to get more done. When you have a to-do list, you think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll do this one,\u0026rdquo; but by the end of the day, maybe half of it is still left. You never finish the to-do list, at least in my experience, whereas you always go through the time. Having that time and saying, \u0026ldquo;This is a 50-minute block; I\u0026rsquo;m going to do this thing,\u0026rdquo; means consciously deciding to do it. By deciding that, you\u0026rsquo;re also deciding, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do this other stuff.\u0026rdquo;\nAt work, I\u0026rsquo;ll say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to spend an hour doing this.\u0026rdquo; That means that during that hour, I\u0026rsquo;m not checking my emails or phone. They get closed, and the phone goes away, because I\u0026rsquo;ve decided to focus on this one thing.\nPlanning my day, deciding what to work on and bringing much more clarity to what I\u0026rsquo;m supposed to be doing at certain times has allowed me to get more done. Even at work, it has allowed me to participate in more things because I can do certain work faster, which means I have more time for other things.\nThat has been a bit of a game changer for me in the last month. I\u0026rsquo;d recommend that anyone listening look into it, because I think it\u0026rsquo;s very beneficial.\nJoe: I\u0026rsquo;ve similarly started adopting an approach that fits that style. I think the lack of control we have is hard to overcome with planning. With time blocking, you\u0026rsquo;re allocating a certain amount of time to things, which you can control. You can control how much time you spend on things, but not how long they take to get done, because that\u0026rsquo;s fluctuating and dynamic.\nThe whole concept of productivity makes me think we have to acknowledge that there\u0026rsquo;s a toddler-like part of us that is so hard to get to do what we want. We have to be creative, intentional and structured about getting our inner toddler to do its work.\nAlso, many takeaways from Lydia\u0026rsquo;s episode—number seven, I believe—were about the athlete metaphor or comparison. That\u0026rsquo;s a really good addition to that advice because you have to put in time for rest, recovery and recuperation. We don\u0026rsquo;t really have that in the business or corporate world.\nJames: To add to that, coming back to what we discussed with Darren and the spirituality stuff, you almost want to reach a point where you don\u0026rsquo;t need these techniques, because work becomes something you actually want to do. Rather than setting yourself time because that\u0026rsquo;s the only way you\u0026rsquo;ll do it, you actually find it fun.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also a game changer to make what you\u0026rsquo;re doing interesting and fun, so you don\u0026rsquo;t need to allocate two hours a week to a thing you don\u0026rsquo;t want to do. Maybe those things will always exist, but having more of what you enjoy is important in making productivity a natural state rather than something you force yourself into.\nJoe: It\u0026rsquo;s pretty appealing if it makes things enjoyable. That\u0026rsquo;s a low-risk mindset for people to embrace, and I certainly try my best. Indistractable sounds like a good book, and I\u0026rsquo;m going to have to check it out.\nMy Favourite Book # Joe: Which is a nice segue, because you\u0026rsquo;re a very avid reader, like me. You\u0026rsquo;ve even done things online about your reading. I have to ask: what\u0026rsquo;s the best book you\u0026rsquo;ve read?\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a tough question. I\u0026rsquo;ve had periods where I\u0026rsquo;ve sat down and read heaps of books, so I\u0026rsquo;ve gone through quite a few. We spoke earlier about the original idea for the podcast and then actually starting it a year and a half later, probably in September this year. In between, I had an Instagram account—it is still there—called James Notes. I was writing and making things about different books I\u0026rsquo;d read. It was a good experience, and although I\u0026rsquo;m not really active there anymore, it may have been one of the catalysts for starting the podcast.\nBack to your question: it\u0026rsquo;s hard to narrow my favourite book of all time down to one. Even if I were recommending one to someone, it would depend on the situation. One I really enjoyed was High Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard.\nJoe: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard of Brendon Burchard, but I haven\u0026rsquo;t read the book.\nJames: High Performance Habits was really great. One of the main lessons I got from it was intentionality. I\u0026rsquo;m not a messiah—I don\u0026rsquo;t practise it all the time. I\u0026rsquo;m still human, right?\nJoe: A healthy disclaimer.\nJames: He talks about how you can be intentional in everything you do. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you come home from work and are about to see your family. What are you trying to get out of that experience? Who do you want to be, maybe as a dad or a partner? Who are you trying to be in that scenario? If you go into a meeting at work, who are you trying to be in that meeting? Reflect on what you aim to get out of it, who you want to be and what you want to be known for before you go into different situations.\nAgain, I don\u0026rsquo;t do this very often, but I\u0026rsquo;m trying to work it in more. It\u0026rsquo;s a good concept. Even listening to what I\u0026rsquo;m saying, I know it would be a good idea to start doing it. Before you do something, what\u0026rsquo;s its actual aim? Why am I doing it? What do I want to get out of this experience?\nEven for something short, like a half-hour meeting, coming back to that is a good exercise. It can add 5–10% to everything you do and help make sure your authentic self is shining through in each situation.\nJoe: Isn\u0026rsquo;t that fascinating? I know you\u0026rsquo;re very across Cal Newport, and I\u0026rsquo;m sure you\u0026rsquo;ve read a lot of books about high-performance habits and all that stuff. It sounds like this one stands out among that literature. Is that because of the emphasis on intentionality and its very explicit terms?\nJames: I think intentionality comes into almost everything. We were speaking about productivity just before: deciding what you\u0026rsquo;re going to do is being intentional. How am I showing up in certain places? How am I showing up to the podcast or at work?\nIt\u0026rsquo;s about not letting yourself fall into a haze where you\u0026rsquo;re just going through the day and doing whatever comes. You\u0026rsquo;re not really setting the direction of your life. Intentionality is quite fundamental and leads into ideas about productivity, normal habits and many other concepts that are rooted in it. It is hard to remember, though.\nJoe: What a challenge. It\u0026rsquo;s a bit of a paradox, because there is also some level of flow in life. It isn\u0026rsquo;t all just, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m on the mind. It\u0026rsquo;s all me pushing all this energy all the time.\u0026rdquo; Intentionality combines with this natural flow, for lack of a better term, and some of the things Darren discussed. It\u0026rsquo;s a funny combination.\nIntentionality is one of my favourite words. It describes the attitude and posture you take towards things. It isn\u0026rsquo;t specific to your pursuit, main interest or career. No matter what you\u0026rsquo;re doing—whether you\u0026rsquo;re a stay-at-home parent or CEO of the World Incorporated—you can be intentional. In fact, you probably should be intentional because time is finite. If you\u0026rsquo;re not intentional, your agenda is set by external factors rather than factors you\u0026rsquo;ve consciously chosen and opted into, which is very powerful and important over the long run.\nJames\u0026rsquo; Favourite Failures # Joe: Another thing I think we should cover is failure. It\u0026rsquo;s very easy to come on podcasts and share a lot of interesting ideas, but you mentioned transparency before. It\u0026rsquo;s valuable to see that the people you\u0026rsquo;re listening to haven\u0026rsquo;t always been crash hot or the host of Graduate Theory, or whatever they\u0026rsquo;re doing now.\nIt would be interesting to discuss failure. You\u0026rsquo;re still super young and early in the typical career journey, but do any failures stand out at this point in time? Maybe there were setbacks that had a silver lining or led to a key lesson. Is there anything like that you can unpack?\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a good question. I haven\u0026rsquo;t had any failures that were life-ruining or really crushed me.\nJoe: You haven\u0026rsquo;t gone broke and had to start again. You weren\u0026rsquo;t fired or kicked out.\nJames: I haven\u0026rsquo;t had any horror stories. My upbringing has been quite good, and I\u0026rsquo;m very fortunate in many regards—or many aspects, at least.\nI was thinking about this question even before the podcast, and I\u0026rsquo;m going to choose two.\nJoe: You\u0026rsquo;re allowed two.\nJames: Maybe these weren\u0026rsquo;t particular moments of failure, but things I didn\u0026rsquo;t do as well as I would have liked and that caused me to improve in the future.\nThe first was that I coasted through my first three years of uni. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t intentional about what I was doing, as we were just discussing. I did almost the bare minimum and coasted along. In hindsight, I wish I had done more.\nThat changed when I went on exchange. In the first semester of 2019, I went to Sheffield in the UK for six months. Throughout the experience, I did video blogs—or my own video journals. The night before I came back to Australia, I was walking down the street and recording myself on my phone. I talked about what I wanted to do when I arrived back in Australia. I\u0026rsquo;d been away for so long, and it was the first time I\u0026rsquo;d been away from my family, friends and everything else for that length of time.\nI was reflecting on my university experience and life generally. I thought, \u0026ldquo;This hasn\u0026rsquo;t been as good as I wanted it to be. I know I can get more out of it, and when I come back to Adelaide, there\u0026rsquo;s more I can be doing and things I can do much better.\u0026rdquo;\nThat experience and time away made me realise that I hadn\u0026rsquo;t been as intentional as I knew I could have been. It was a big catalyst going into my final three semesters of uni. From that point, my grades were significantly better. I think I wrote a blog post about this on my website, where my university grades are listed. The grades are down here, and then they\u0026rsquo;re way up here once I returned—the average grades, I mean. Once I came back, I did significantly better in my grades, life and everything. That was a great experience for me.\nThe second one probably wasn\u0026rsquo;t a failure per se, but it was something I didn\u0026rsquo;t do as well as I could have, and it resulted in me doing things better. It was in the second semester of 2019, the first semester after I\u0026rsquo;d returned from Sheffield. Internships were coming up because I was in my penultimate—or second-to-last—year. You apply for internships in the last summer before your final year.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t get into anything particularly good or anything I really wanted. Fortunately, a company in Adelaide called the RAA, which is the roadside assistance company, also had an internship. I got that one, which was a really great experience, but I got it right at the end, after all the major companies had already completed their processes.\nI had a great experience there, but it got me thinking: \u0026ldquo;This time next year, when I\u0026rsquo;m applying for graduate roles—which are probably more important than internships—I need to take this process much more seriously.\u0026rdquo; When the graduate roles opened around February the following year, I created a massive spreadsheet. I put in every job I applied for, where I was up to and other information so I could be much clearer about what I was doing.\nOne problem I had when applying for internships was that I was talking crap to myself and overstating what I\u0026rsquo;d actually done. I might sit there thinking, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve applied for so many jobs,\u0026rdquo; when in reality I\u0026rsquo;d only applied for five or something. The idea in my head of what I\u0026rsquo;d done wasn\u0026rsquo;t the same as what I\u0026rsquo;d actually done.\nFor the graduate roles, I wrote everything down so I could see exactly how many I\u0026rsquo;d applied for and how things were going. If I was unhappy with the way it looked, it was on me to make it better. It was good that I had that earlier experience because this spreadsheet helped me do the process much better. Fortunately, I got a graduate role at ANZ, which is where I am now. So far, it\u0026rsquo;s been really incredible, and it was the reason I moved to Melbourne, as we discussed at the start.\nThat has led to so many things: everything that has happened through moving and meeting new people—even meeting you this year. So much has happened this year that stemmed from those decisions. Although the initial experience wasn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily a failure or something that turned out terribly, it gave me perspective on what I was doing, allowed me to improve and led to better things the following year.\nJoe: It\u0026rsquo;s powerful stuff, James. I want to touch on both points, if I may. I can speak about the first part more broadly. I think we\u0026rsquo;ve discussed the travel experience before. In my little world, I use the metaphor of a bucket. It\u0026rsquo;s a good opportunity, especially for young people, to empty everything they\u0026rsquo;re doing in life—and all the people around them—out of the bucket for a window of time, because it enables reflection.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s hard to reflect on a situation when you\u0026rsquo;re in it. You can\u0026rsquo;t see the outside of a car when you\u0026rsquo;re inside it driving. It\u0026rsquo;s good to get out and actually look at it. When you travel, especially on exchange, it isn\u0026rsquo;t just travel: it\u0026rsquo;s immersion somewhere else, where you\u0026rsquo;re ingrained in another way of life. You might not get that from a holiday where you stay in hostels, hotels or whatever.\nIt is very common in the stories of famous entrepreneurs that travel, especially in the East, was a real switch. You won\u0026rsquo;t find that among conventional university or career hacks, when everyone is trying to get the grades or the best jobs, or whatever the goal is. It seems counterintuitive, but I want to emphasise it because you\u0026rsquo;ve given a powerful example. My broader observation, based on my own experience, is that true immersion, like an exchange, tends to have that impact.\nIt also answered another question: why you go for the Blades. Now I know you were in Sheffield. That\u0026rsquo;s a soccer reference for anyone unfamiliar.\nOn the other point, I think it was important how you described your lack of intentionality, followed by the fire to rebound from that and make good the next time. You put great language to it. How often do we convince ourselves we\u0026rsquo;ve done a great job when we actually haven\u0026rsquo;t done much? I still do that often: \u0026ldquo;Why am I not getting these results or more of this and that? I\u0026rsquo;m great. I\u0026rsquo;m doing great stuff.\u0026rdquo; Then, if it\u0026rsquo;s for work, I realise, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m actually not promoting things very much. What am I complaining about? It\u0026rsquo;s me.\u0026rdquo;\nOur minds are easily deceived little tools, aren\u0026rsquo;t they? They\u0026rsquo;re easily deceived into a state of entitlement, because we normally resist doing the work at first. Your story is a great example of getting into gear, preparing and then seeing the results. If I were 20 or 21 and listening to that, it would fire me up to get proactive right now. Why not? You have the call to action. It isn\u0026rsquo;t hard; it\u0026rsquo;s a process, and you get results. You\u0026rsquo;re a good example of that.\nThose are powerful lessons, and people can take them or make the mistakes themselves and then realise. You have an option, don\u0026rsquo;t you?\nJames: In the example where I didn\u0026rsquo;t get the jobs I really wanted, if you\u0026rsquo;re not getting to the places you want to go, your work isn\u0026rsquo;t being seen by the people you want to see it, or things aren\u0026rsquo;t going the way you want, then it\u0026rsquo;s on you.\nIt isn\u0026rsquo;t that the company is making a mistake by not seeing your greatness. Maybe they missed you or there was an error, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t helpful to put it on them. It\u0026rsquo;s up to you. If your work isn\u0026rsquo;t being seen by the right people or you\u0026rsquo;re not getting the roles you want, it is your responsibility. No one is going to come and help you. No one is as passionate about you as you are.\nJoe: To consolidate that, there is a cop-out answer: \u0026ldquo;They just don\u0026rsquo;t get my value.\u0026rdquo; Hands up, I\u0026rsquo;ve done that many times, so I claim no moral high ground. But if you go through all these situations without taking any responsibility, that isn\u0026rsquo;t helpful.\nYou might flip it and talk about leadership. When a sporting team puts in a terrible performance, you never see a good coach go into the press conference and say, \u0026ldquo;I gave them a great game plan. The boys let me down, or the girls let me down. They\u0026rsquo;re rubbish. James at right mid was terrible; Joe at centre mid was terrible.\u0026rdquo; You don\u0026rsquo;t say that, but how many times is it actually the case? The coach always seems to take responsibility and take it off the players as an example of leadership. You might consolidate your lesson into leadership of yourself.\nThere are always politics at companies and constraints on hiring processes. There might be CVs and applications; it isn\u0026rsquo;t as though everyone is interviewed face-to-face all the time. Storytelling and interpretation are involved. There are factors you can\u0026rsquo;t control, but you don\u0026rsquo;t get to control them. That\u0026rsquo;s why acknowledging what you can take responsibility for is your point, or at least what I found in your story. You also can\u0026rsquo;t guarantee someone will hire you.\nBut what you took control of was a pretty good bet. You\u0026rsquo;re going to get somewhere when you take that approach. You could take the mindset, \u0026ldquo;I did the work; they just didn\u0026rsquo;t appreciate me,\u0026rdquo; but where is that going to get you, even if it\u0026rsquo;s true? That was my interpretation of your story. I think it\u0026rsquo;s an important part of life and a great thing to learn at a young age. I don\u0026rsquo;t know if that makes sense.\nJames: It does. I think it came across well. There are many situations where it is easy to blame other people for why you\u0026rsquo;re not getting somewhere or why bad things are happening. It\u0026rsquo;s important to ask, \u0026ldquo;What role did I have in this situation? How can I make it better? What mistakes did I make?\u0026rdquo; Even if you didn\u0026rsquo;t make any mistakes, take as much responsibility as you can, because almost everything happening in your life is your fault, and try to shoulder that.\nThe key is that no one is going to come and fix your problems for you. You have to do it yourself. No one will come and ask, \u0026ldquo;Do you want a job at your dream company?\u0026rdquo; No one will ever do that. It\u0026rsquo;s on you to get those opportunities. That\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt and will continue to learn, but I think it\u0026rsquo;s quite important.\nHow does James want to be described? # Joe: Moving on, you\u0026rsquo;ve started this journey and are well underway with Graduate Theory. Do you consciously think about how you want to be described and seen for the work you\u0026rsquo;re doing and the values you\u0026rsquo;re bringing to it? How do you want people to think about and describe you, if you get a choice in cultivating that?\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a difficult question. Often, with something like a podcast, you can have a brand, but the brand is almost just a reflection of myself and my values. That\u0026rsquo;s often the case with companies: the company\u0026rsquo;s values usually reflect whoever is in charge and the people who run it. Their values filter down.\nThe way I want to be known, and the way I hope it is reflected in Graduate Theory, is that I want to provide inspiration. I want to be an example showing people that they can go out and do things too. Coming back to the self-doubt we discussed earlier, I want to be an example of someone overcoming those things. People can achieve things in life if they want and don\u0026rsquo;t have to be held back by expectations or doubts.\nI hope that comes through in the podcast and the things I do more generally. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to detach the podcast from my life; they\u0026rsquo;re really the same thing. That would probably be one of the main points.\nThis whole idea of personal responsibility is also important. I try to practise it, and people can take and apply it in their own lives. Taking personal responsibility for everything going on is something I try to do and hope comes across.\nHow would younger James react to Graduate Theory? # Joe: I\u0026rsquo;m curious about the version of you before you went on exchange. How would that version of you have responded to this podcast simply as a listener? Not, \u0026ldquo;This is what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do in the future.\u0026rdquo; Pretend Joe runs the Graduate Theory podcast, though Joe obviously has a huge overlap with you. What impact would it have had? Would you have listened to things like this at that time?\nJames: I would have listened, but it would have been one of those things where I listened and that was it. I would have ticked it off: \u0026ldquo;I listened to a productivity podcast today. Cool.\u0026rdquo; But there wasn\u0026rsquo;t a connection between, \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s what I listened to and what they said,\u0026rdquo; and, \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;m going to change about the things I do.\u0026rdquo; That disconnect was definitely there.\nEven last year, I read heaps of books almost just for the sake of it. There wasn\u0026rsquo;t a connection to a problem I was trying to fix. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to read just because reading is good and Bill Gates reads, so I should read too. It should be, \u0026ldquo;Here is a problem I have. Here\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do to fix it, and here are the tools I\u0026rsquo;ll use: I\u0026rsquo;m going to look at these books, listen to this particular podcast and do these things.\u0026rdquo;\nComing at it that way is almost intentionality: when I\u0026rsquo;m reading or listening, what am I trying to get out of it, and what will I use from it? If I had listened to this years ago, that connection probably wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been there. I hope it comes across in the podcast that we don\u0026rsquo;t only speak about these topics; we also cover their application. If we speak about self-doubt, how do you address it?\nMany things I read and listen to don\u0026rsquo;t make that connection. They say, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t let self-doubt hold you back.\u0026rdquo; You motivated me—that\u0026rsquo;s great—but what do I actually do? It\u0026rsquo;s hard to work that out, but having an actual action step is important. Not only listening to the action step but doing it matters too. You could sit many people down and say, \u0026ldquo;Do this, this and this, and you\u0026rsquo;ll get this result,\u0026rdquo; and they still won\u0026rsquo;t do it. Still, having action steps there for those who do want to act is important.\nJoe: That\u0026rsquo;s a big point. I have one more question for you after this, but if we riff on self-doubt for a little while, I want to avoid blanket motivational statements like, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t let self-doubt hold you back. Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid.\u0026rdquo; Talk is cheap, right?\nMy thinking is that you overcome it by going through it. Going back to your reference to Andrew, you\u0026rsquo;ve gone through self-doubt over career risks or creative risks a couple of times. Then you become familiar with it and get used to it. As you said, action steps—taking steps to get to the other side and having gone through the process—are the key to overcoming it in my mind.\nYour best example is probably Graduate Theory: releasing it for the first time and thinking, \u0026ldquo;Is this weird? Do people want to hear me interviewing people?\u0026rdquo; There is also reaching out to guests, with the potential for rejection or embarrassment and thoughts like, \u0026ldquo;Am I bothering this person?\u0026rdquo;\nIf people listening want to know, \u0026ldquo;How do I overcome that? James seems to be overcoming it because he\u0026rsquo;s been there,\u0026rdquo; I would point to those things. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether you have any comments or anything to add.\nJames: There have been instances where I\u0026rsquo;ve overcome self-doubt—maybe successfully; we\u0026rsquo;ll find out. To return to the action steps, the first is to notice what you\u0026rsquo;re experiencing. Notice that you are having self-doubt.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s say a new position comes up at work that you think you\u0026rsquo;d like to do, but you\u0026rsquo;re not sure whether to apply. Or you\u0026rsquo;ve applied, aren\u0026rsquo;t sure whether you\u0026rsquo;ll get it and don\u0026rsquo;t believe you could do the role. The first step is to notice that you\u0026rsquo;re experiencing that. The second is to ask why: where does it come from? Do you not believe in yourself generally? Does it link back to some childhood or high-school experience? That\u0026rsquo;s an interesting topic we could discuss another time. Why are you thinking that way? Perhaps you can identify the reasons.\nThen try to rebuild your confidence a little and say, \u0026ldquo;Doing this is going to be good for these reasons.\u0026rdquo; Andrew said that chances are, if you\u0026rsquo;ve applied and gone that far, you\u0026rsquo;re capable of doing the thing. You wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have thought about doing it if you weren\u0026rsquo;t able to.\nRecognise that feeling and sink into it. Darren would say, \u0026ldquo;Sit with it. Feel where it is in your body. Sit down, close your eyes and experience as much of it as you can. Then let it do its thing.\u0026rdquo;\nJoe: It wants to be expressed. That\u0026rsquo;s what he said.\nJames: In my experience, there have been times when opportunities have come up and I\u0026rsquo;ve put myself forward, but even during the process I\u0026rsquo;ve thought, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t do this. They won\u0026rsquo;t pick me because I\u0026rsquo;m not good enough,\u0026rdquo; or whatever it is.\nAs time has passed, I\u0026rsquo;ve found I would have been pretty good at doing those things, including opportunities I didn\u0026rsquo;t get. Seeing the people in those positions I didn\u0026rsquo;t think I could fill, they\u0026rsquo;re not anything special, and I easily could have done it as well. It is definitely difficult to get through self-doubt, and still quite vague, but I feel it\u0026rsquo;s something you have to go through.\nJoe: That is worth giving people comfort over. It is vague because it\u0026rsquo;s specific to the individual. Any high-level concept is hard to talk through, which is why so many people work in personal development and self-awareness. From spirituality to practical career matters, there is so much in there.\nYou talked about who you were before you went on exchange. This might have gone over your head at the time, but one thing I notice about this journey is that, on some level, people start by reading books and listening to podcasts. They consume content before they take action because it\u0026rsquo;s an easier step and they\u0026rsquo;re getting ready. Then it all sinks in.\nThe podcast you glossed over may not have given you one thing you immediately implemented, but it prepared you. Three years later, after going on exchange, the message from those podcasts had been trying to reach you and was sinking in. On a broader level, nothing you hear in one podcast episode will dissolve all your self-doubt. I want to zoom out and draw your attention to the fact that it\u0026rsquo;s a process.\nJames, people now have transparency into your story and can see how the process went for you. I think that makes it okay, because you\u0026rsquo;re at some point on that journey. If someone is listening to this, we know that they are somewhere on the journey too. They might simply be listening because Graduate Theory is a great podcast, or they might be facing this as a natural part of their early career. Everyone has self-doubt. There is so much comparison and so many measurable outcomes: \u0026ldquo;I did or didn\u0026rsquo;t get it.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s quite a journey. We can\u0026rsquo;t tell you how long it will take, and it will probably never be completely done, but you get used to it and it becomes easier. Patience and process are important too. It\u0026rsquo;s an ongoing journey.\nThe last thing I want to end on, if we could, is to give you a taste of your own medicine.\nJames\u0026rsquo; Tip For Graduates # Joe: What is one tip you would give to new graduates? I believe that\u0026rsquo;s your final question, but what\u0026rsquo;s one tip you would give to new graduates today?\nJames: The main thing is to be intentional about what you\u0026rsquo;re doing. That\u0026rsquo;s so important. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you look forward one year: what would make this a successful year for you, and what things are you going to do this year that would be good? Even when it comes to networking, be intentional about who you\u0026rsquo;re networking with and make that something you participate in.\nLife is an adventure, so you\u0026rsquo;ve got to go out and make stuff yourself. Coming back to what we were talking about before, no one\u0026rsquo;s going to make your experience great for you. No one\u0026rsquo;s going to sit there and say, \u0026ldquo;This is the perfect opportunity for you. Here you go.\u0026rdquo; You have to create that stuff yourself and meet the people you want to meet. They\u0026rsquo;re not going to come to you.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve got to seek the opportunities you want because no one\u0026rsquo;s going to bring them to you. Take life with both hands, embrace the world and seek things yourself. That\u0026rsquo;s the lesson I try to apply, and it would be my lesson to a new graduate as well.\nLife\u0026rsquo;s an adventure and a fantastic journey, but you\u0026rsquo;ve got to get in there, get in the arena and make the most of it. Take life with both hands. That\u0026rsquo;s fundamental not only during your graduate experience, but throughout your entire life. Tackle stuff head-on and get involved. Don\u0026rsquo;t sit on the sidelines mocking or watching people who are doing cool stuff; get in there, meet people, participate and do cool stuff yourself. That\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;ve grown into doing this year, and I\u0026rsquo;d recommend it to everyone.\nJoe: That\u0026rsquo;s it. James Fricker says, ladies and gentlemen: get off your arse, stop sitting on your hands and seize it.\nOutro # Joe: What else do you need to hear? Powerfully put. What a way to end. Thank you very much, James. I hope I met spec and did the show justice. A big reminder for everyone: the best episode is episode one, of course, so go back to the start if you\u0026rsquo;re new. As is customary, remind them where they can find you and where they can get more.\nJames: The show notes for this episode are the best place, because they\u0026rsquo;ll have all the links. GraduateTheory.com has everything, including more about the episode. We\u0026rsquo;re also on Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube. All the links will be in the show notes, but GraduateTheory.com is the main place to find everything.\nThanks so much for coming on today, Joe. We\u0026rsquo;ve had a good, deep chat, and I hope it\u0026rsquo;s useful for listeners who want to find out more about me, the podcast and things like that. I appreciate you coming on and speaking to me. We covered some interesting and useful concepts today, hopefully almost as useful as having a guest on.\nJoe: Certainly. Thanks for the privilege. Until next time.\nJames: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. I hope you enjoyed hearing me talk for a little longer than usual today. Hopefully some of those lessons were useful and you can apply them in your own life, because we\u0026rsquo;re not just about stating concepts and giving you motivation. It\u0026rsquo;s also about what you can do to apply these things.\nIf you want my insights and takeaways from today\u0026rsquo;s episode, go to GraduateTheory.com and read the post about this episode. To get those posts by email, consider subscribing to the newsletter.\nYou can also subscribe on whatever platform you\u0026rsquo;re using, whether that\u0026rsquo;s a podcast platform or YouTube. If you\u0026rsquo;re on Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review so we can get more people listening to the great content in Graduate Theory. I hope you enjoyed it, and I\u0026rsquo;m wishing every one of you a very Merry Christmas.\nI hope you\u0026rsquo;re enjoying the Christmas break, whatever you might be doing over this period. Thanks so much for listening again today. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 10\n","date":"27 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/10-on-graduate-theory/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 10\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Graduate Theory","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Aiden studied IT and finished his degree in 2016, previously worked at Apple and PwC and now works as a Technical Trainer at Microsoft. He is passionate about mental health.\nEric studied commerce at university and has worked in many roles across South East Asia in investing, business development, and communications. He\u0026rsquo;s now an editor at Newsweek.\nBoth guests are working on a project called MentorFold, where they aim to connect up-and-coming graduates with early-career mentors.\nConnect with the guests # MentorFold Eric Barker on LinkedIn Aiden on LinkedIn My Takeaways # Mental Health is Important # Often mental health is not associated with the typical \u0026lsquo;corporate grind hustle\u0026rsquo; culture. If you are working too hard, it\u0026rsquo;s important to take it slow and recharge. Don\u0026rsquo;t let work ruin your sanity.\nMentors are Important # If you know where you want to go, finding someone who knows how to get there will be a critical and important step on your journey. So many of the problems you wish you could get rid of have already been solved by someone else. Find them, and fix your problems.\nReach Out to Network and Get Mentors # Great mentors and great people don\u0026rsquo;t just appear in your life. If you want these people in your life, it\u0026rsquo;s up to you to go out and find them.\nThings Discussed # MentorFold\nBlackbird Giants Program\nNew Job Code\nReal Mates Program\nMind Care Club\nBeyond Blue\nHeadspace\nShow Content # 00:00 Aiden and Eric\n00:42 Intro\n01:36 What was the inspiration behind Mentorfold?\n05:22 What are the benefits of having a mentor?\n07:21 Friction of Reaching out to Strangers\n08:29 What problems do mentors solve?\n12:42 The New Job Code\n20:31 Challenges Graduates Face and How to Deal with Them\n24:46 Aiden and Eric on the Importance of Mental Health\n35:49 Checking in with people about their Mental Health\n39:10 Aiden and Eric\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Starting Your First Job\n44:13 Outro\n","date":"20 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/9-on-mentoring-and-mental-health/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Aiden studied IT and finished his degree in 2016, previously worked at Apple and PwC and now works as a Technical Trainer at Microsoft. He is passionate about mental health.\n","title":"On Mentoring and Mental Health","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 9\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we speak all about mentoring.\nWe spoke about mental health and how it works in with hustle culture and how those things can coexist and how to really look after your mental health, how to make sure you look after other people\u0026rsquo;s mental health.\nI think this is a really important episode. Given that we cover some themes around mental health, if you have any concerns or want to reach out to people, there are links in the show notes so you can find out more if you need to. We\u0026rsquo;re speaking about important topics, so I hope you enjoy.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today\u0026rsquo;s episode, we have not one but two guests. Both guests are working on a project called MentorFold, where they aim to connect up-and-coming graduates with early-career mentors. My first guest studied IT and finished his degree in 2016. He previously worked at Apple and PwC.\nHe now works as a technical trainer at Microsoft and is passionate about mental health. Please welcome to the show Aiden. My second guest today studied commerce at university. He\u0026rsquo;s worked in many roles in Australia and throughout Southeast Asia in investing, business development and communications.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s now an editor at Newsweek. Please welcome to the show Eric.\nWhat was the inspiration behind MentorFold? # James: My first question for you both is about MentorFold. You\u0026rsquo;re trying to connect mentors and mentees, but what was the reason and inspiration for starting MentorFold?\nAiden: It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting story because I\u0026rsquo;ve worked in quite a few corporate environments, such as Microsoft and PwC. One of the experiences I went through at PwC made me realise I didn\u0026rsquo;t really have anyone to turn to.\nIn a corporate environment, when you get a mentor, there\u0026rsquo;s generally a lot of structure around it. You go to the mentor or talk to them, and the mentor says, \u0026ldquo;Okay, this is what your career will look like at PwC. This is what you can talk about. This isn\u0026rsquo;t what you talk about.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s really tied to job progression and how you\u0026rsquo;re doing. But if you have problems or issues that aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily something you can discuss with people at work—or maybe they\u0026rsquo;re to do with work—it could be something like, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m thinking about moving to another job.\nI\u0026rsquo;m thinking about trying a different career.\u0026rdquo; Maybe you can\u0026rsquo;t exactly ask a mentor at your job about that because they\u0026rsquo;ll say, \u0026ldquo;Why do you want to leave? What\u0026rsquo;s the rationale behind this?\u0026rdquo; The other thing that led me towards it was the end of my experience at PwC.\nI wasn\u0026rsquo;t having a great time, and I thought it would be really good to talk to someone who wasn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily part of the company but from whom I could still get mentorship. That was a long time ago—about two or three years ago.\nThe idea for MentorFold didn\u0026rsquo;t really take shape until a couple of months ago, when I was in the shower thinking about this for some reason. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Wait a minute, I don\u0026rsquo;t think anything like this actually exists, and if it did, I would have 100 per cent used it.\u0026rdquo;\nSo I immediately thought, \u0026ldquo;Okay, I need to write this down, work through it and figure out what\u0026rsquo;s going on here.\u0026rdquo; I hit upon the idea of MentorFold being a platform where you connect with a mentor who isn\u0026rsquo;t tied to any job or university.\nYou generally get a mentor who sticks with you from career to career. From that point, it was easy because I had an idea of what it could look like, but I wanted to get some traction underneath it before I turned it into a proper startup.\nI applied to the Blackbird Giants program with the idea, fully expecting not to get in because it\u0026rsquo;s a competitive process and there are a lot of very talented people in the program. Then I got in and thought, \u0026ldquo;This is crazy. How did I get in? This just doesn\u0026rsquo;t seem true.\u0026rdquo; At that point, I thought, \u0026ldquo;If I\u0026rsquo;m going to do this, I need to work with someone because I definitely can\u0026rsquo;t take it upon myself.\u0026rdquo; I reached out to Eric because we\u0026rsquo;ve known each other for over 10 years.\nEric and I have built stuff together over the past couple of years, and it was the natural inclination to say, \u0026ldquo;If I\u0026rsquo;m going to build this with someone, let me build it with someone I\u0026rsquo;ve known for so long and who I\u0026rsquo;m close to, even outside of our working relationship,\u0026rdquo; and go from there.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s how it got started: my personal experiences combined with a bit of luck and a bit of hard work.\nJames: Amazing what you can think of in the shower. Right?\nAiden: That\u0026rsquo;s my top tip for this podcast: think of things in the shower.\nWhat are the benefits of having a mentor? # James: Eric, what has your relationship been with mentors? Have you had one or wanted one in the past?\nEric: Both. When Aiden brought this to me, it brought up a lot of thoughts about how I\u0026rsquo;d interacted with mentors and mentorship. I\u0026rsquo;ve sought mentors out privately, and I\u0026rsquo;ve also been assigned them from a corporate perspective. One company I was working with was a large international company, and they said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re starting here.\nWe need to assign you someone you don\u0026rsquo;t report to, so you can ask questions with less conflict and more honesty.\u0026rdquo; But, like Aiden said, after all that rhetoric, there is an underlying loyalty to the company and risks associated if you don\u0026rsquo;t follow it as a mentor or mentee.\nThat always seems to hamper the level of connection you can develop in that scenario. In my private life, outside the corporate sphere, I went about mentorship a little differently. I looked at who was doing exactly what I wanted to be doing, maybe five or 10 years down the road from where I thought I was, and I sought them out.\nI said, \u0026ldquo;I want to be doing what you\u0026rsquo;re doing. Can I learn from you if I take you out for coffee?\u0026rdquo; That has led to much more fruitful, long-standing relationships that I continue with a few individuals to this day. We\u0026rsquo;re trying to create that for everyone else because it\u0026rsquo;s been immensely helpful for both of us from a personal and professional standpoint.\nJames: I like that a lot. One thing that\u0026rsquo;s really cool is your initiative in reaching out to people. That\u0026rsquo;s a stopping point for many people because there\u0026rsquo;s a lot of friction. Maybe you\u0026rsquo;re sitting there in the shower.\nFriction of Reaching out to Strangers # James: Maybe you\u0026rsquo;re thinking, \u0026ldquo;Damn, I\u0026rsquo;d really like a mentor.\u0026rdquo; But then there\u0026rsquo;s this whole thing: \u0026ldquo;Who am I going to reach out to? Maybe they won\u0026rsquo;t respond.\u0026rdquo; People can talk themselves out of it or not even think it\u0026rsquo;s something they can do. That\u0026rsquo;s a great example, Eric, of using your initiative and getting out there.\nEric: It can be hard for a lot of people to reach out, and we acknowledge that. That\u0026rsquo;s part of the problem we\u0026rsquo;re trying to solve. What\u0026rsquo;s stopping you from taking the first step? Maybe you need to be introduced, don\u0026rsquo;t know how to reach out or just find it scary. Those are all valid points.\nAiden: We joke that we\u0026rsquo;re taking the friction out of reaching out to strangers because we do the reaching out for you. But it\u0026rsquo;s an important part of seeking mentorship.\nYou need to put yourself out there. While we can take a fair bit of that away from the conversation, you still have to say, \u0026ldquo;Okay, I want to have a conversation with my mentor or even, in some cases, my mentee.\u0026rdquo;\nIn order to do that, you\u0026rsquo;ve got to bare your soul a little bit and form a connection that way.\nWhat problems do mentors solve? # James: Say someone\u0026rsquo;s thinking about getting a mentor. What are the main things you would want them to take away from a mentoring relationship? Or, Eric, what have you taken away from those experiences?\nEric: Part of what we\u0026rsquo;re running up against in building this community is a general lack of understanding around what mentorship is. To a lot of people, it comes across as a buzzword. For our purposes, it\u0026rsquo;s a combination of guidance, mentee-driven coaching and problem-solving. Guidance is when you\u0026rsquo;re looking for direction and need someone more experienced than you to bounce thoughts off.\nMentee-driven coaching is where you say, \u0026ldquo;I have a problem or a goal. I need to figure out how to get to point B. Can you help me?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s not up to the mentor to drive your coaching or progress. You need to go to them as a resource, as an authority and as someone who\u0026rsquo;s more experienced. Problem-solving matters because you don\u0026rsquo;t know everything.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re going to have experience with problems you\u0026rsquo;ll run into in your professional life, navigating your career and even navigating the workplace when you start work. For us, it\u0026rsquo;s a combination of those three things. With that definition, that\u0026rsquo;s what we want to build.\nJames: I like what you said about having to know where your point B is. It\u0026rsquo;s nice to have a mentor and say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got a mentor. I\u0026rsquo;m better than everyone,\u0026rdquo; but you need to come to the mentor knowing what you need and why you have someone there, beyond it just being cool to have someone to talk about your career with. It\u0026rsquo;s a case of, \u0026ldquo;I have you around so I can better reach this particular destination.\u0026rdquo;\nEric: If I might cut in, it\u0026rsquo;s good for the mentor as well if you come to them with a point B. If you don\u0026rsquo;t, they get frustrated: \u0026ldquo;Why am I meeting with this person? Is this a social visit? Do they want something from me? Are they trying to sell me something? What\u0026rsquo;s the purpose of this?\u0026rdquo; If you go to them and say, \u0026ldquo;This is my goal and plan.\nThis is the difficulty. Can I buy you a cup of coffee or have some of your time to hear about your experience or thoughts?\u0026rdquo; you can then plan out a structure for the next week, two weeks or month to see how you can get there.\nAiden: I\u0026rsquo;ve recently started to mentor people as well as be a mentee. From my perspective, the best mentor–mentee relationships have begun when people have literally DM\u0026rsquo;d me on LinkedIn and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;ve seen your experience and what you\u0026rsquo;ve done.\nI really want to be in that same space. Do you mind taking a couple of minutes to chat about it?\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s always been really effective from a mentorship perspective because you think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve been in that position before. I\u0026rsquo;ve definitely been that clueless graduate thinking, \u0026lsquo;I have no idea what I\u0026rsquo;m doing.\u0026rsquo;\u0026rdquo;\nWhen you get to the point where you have some experience and would really like to help others in that position, it\u0026rsquo;s a great thing because you\u0026rsquo;re passing on that knowledge. People who come after you don\u0026rsquo;t have to make the same mistakes you might have made. One interesting thing about MentorFold is that we have a lot of mentors who\u0026rsquo;ve joined the platform, and every one of them says, \u0026ldquo;We just want to help other people.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s not about getting paid or building a following. It\u0026rsquo;s about, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt all this through a lot of hard work, dedication and a ton of mistakes.\nI want to make sure the people who come after me don\u0026rsquo;t have to make those same mistakes.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s very altruistic from that perspective.\nJames: There\u0026rsquo;s that idea of paying it forward. When you\u0026rsquo;re young and have received advice or had a mentor, you get that feeling: \u0026ldquo;I want to give back and give someone else the same experience I had.\u0026rdquo; I think this is really cool, and I like the idea of removing a lot of the friction from getting a mentor.\nThe New Job Code # James: I want to talk about the book you\u0026rsquo;re releasing soon, which Eric mentioned before the podcast. What\u0026rsquo;s the title, and is it related to this project?\nEric: It is. It\u0026rsquo;s called The New Job Code. We\u0026rsquo;re planning to have it come out in January 2022. We\u0026rsquo;re positioning it as a guide to how the job market and the job-getting process have changed from before the pandemic to now. There are different ways to get and find jobs, as well as the online presence you need these days.\nThere are a whole lot of different examples. It\u0026rsquo;s separated into seven chapters, and we\u0026rsquo;ve packed it full of real-life examples and screenshots from every step of the job-getting process, including mentorship.\nAiden: It was really fun to write because we spent hours upon hours talking to each other and saying, \u0026ldquo;Hey, do you remember that time you did this or that? Why don\u0026rsquo;t we put it in the book? Why don\u0026rsquo;t we just be authentic and talk about what we did and how we got to where we are?\u0026rdquo;\nWe both think there\u0026rsquo;s a lot of really good information that people can take away from it.\nJames: Let\u0026rsquo;s say someone\u0026rsquo;s going to read this book. What are some things you want them to get out of it?\nEric: We designed this book so you can pick it up and go, \u0026ldquo;Cool. These are actions I can take that will get me results.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s a really short book considering how long books on this topic can get. It\u0026rsquo;s 80 pages, which isn\u0026rsquo;t a lot, and there are lots of pictures and screenshots.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all really accessible, and we\u0026rsquo;ve tried to keep it that way as much as possible. Our goal is for someone to pick it up, take a look, identify with the problems we outline in the first few pages and say, \u0026ldquo;Cool, this might actually work. Let\u0026rsquo;s give this a try,\u0026rdquo; then follow the steps as they go through it.\nAiden: I think the best element is the action points at the end of each chapter. You can go to the action points and ask, \u0026ldquo;Have I done this, this, this and this?\u0026rdquo; If you work through all those different action points and get to the end of the book, you can say, \u0026ldquo;Okay, I\u0026rsquo;m in a reasonably good place. I feel like I can get a job now. I\u0026rsquo;ve been able to do this and that. I know what a résumé looks like and how to write a cover letter. I know why people write them and what their purpose is.\u0026rdquo;\nYou get to a really good position where you can say, \u0026ldquo;Cool. I know how to look for the right jobs and create my résumé and cover letter. I know how to behave in an interview. I even know how to negotiate a job offer.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s the one thing I wrote in the book and thought, \u0026ldquo;If I\u0026rsquo;d known this when I was a graduate, I probably would have been in a much better position than I was.\u0026rdquo; As I said, it\u0026rsquo;s another form of mentorship because, instead of talking to people about it, we\u0026rsquo;ve written it down and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, take a look at this because you\u0026rsquo;re going to need it when you\u0026rsquo;re negotiating or applying for a job.\u0026rdquo;\nEric: We have a whole section on the different questions you get asked in an interview and what they look like now, as opposed to two or three years ago.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a modern book, because some interview questions might be 20 years old and not relevant today. Are there any concepts or action items from the book that you apply in your lives now?\nAiden: There are quite a few. One I\u0026rsquo;ve been applying more recently is really plotting out your next move, how to apply for a job or how to look for the right jobs for you.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not a very organised person by any means, but after writing The New Job Code, I thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t really do this first bit. I should make a conscious effort to sit down and make lists.\u0026rdquo; My wife is fully organised, so I talked to her about it and she said, \u0026ldquo;Why don\u0026rsquo;t you make a to-do list?\nWhy don\u0026rsquo;t you make a pros and cons list? Why don\u0026rsquo;t you do this or that?\u0026rdquo; For the longest time, I thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know. That\u0026rsquo;s not really my style,\u0026rdquo; but now I\u0026rsquo;m 100 per cent on board. I was talking to Eric about this earlier and had a pros and cons list about something we were discussing. I said, \u0026ldquo;This is what this looks like.\nThis is what that looks like.\u0026rdquo; I have a whole mental framework around it now. I allocate points based on how important or unimportant something is to me and get a nice little score. Based on the score, I can make a decision: \u0026ldquo;Based on all the numbers I\u0026rsquo;ve put together, this is the direction I should go in, and this is the direction I shouldn\u0026rsquo;t.\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s been really helpful, and the whole mental model piece has been great.\nJames: That weighted matrix or weighted decision could probably have several different names, but it\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;ve used in the past without knowing it was an established tool, particularly for making big choices.\nI remember considering going on exchange and whether it was a good decision. The cons were: \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to cost a lot of money. I\u0026rsquo;m not going to be around. I\u0026rsquo;m going to a whole new city where I won\u0026rsquo;t know anyone.\u0026rdquo;\nThe pros were: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to get to travel around and meet new friends,\u0026rdquo; and things like that. You try to do it as impartially as possible. Whatever score you get at the end takes your emotion out of the decision a little.\nSometimes you can get more emotional about these decisions or find them hard to make, so having it written down in concrete can definitely make them easier. Eric, is there anything you use, or any key concepts from the book that are your favourites?\nEric: Maybe I\u0026rsquo;ve adopted some of this without knowing it because we\u0026rsquo;ve written the thing. There\u0026rsquo;s a section on networking, and networking is like a dirty word. No one likes to do it; when you think about it, you want to gag a little bit. Part of my journey has been reframing networking as providing value wherever you can. If you look at it that way, it\u0026rsquo;s not about what you can get from the person you\u0026rsquo;re talking to. Otherwise, you feel like you\u0026rsquo;re harassing them and scrounging around for a bit of their time. Instead, you\u0026rsquo;re asking, \u0026ldquo;Is there anything I can help you with? Is there a need I can see or a connection I can give you that\u0026rsquo;s going to benefit you, even if you\u0026rsquo;re the CEO of wherever?\u0026rdquo; That translates into the messages and emails you send, the proposals you make and the content you produce. It all comes together. I think that\u0026rsquo;s really important. If someone doesn\u0026rsquo;t already know that, they need to learn it because that\u0026rsquo;s how things work.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve recently been reading a book called Give and Take by Adam Grant. It\u0026rsquo;s about the idea of being a giver versus a taker and, as you were saying, offering value to people with no expectation of them doing something in return.\nI think that\u0026rsquo;s a really powerful concept. When it comes to networking, you can look at people and ask, \u0026ldquo;Where can I offer value to this person, or how can I do something for them?\u0026rdquo; and create a network that way.\nChallenges Graduates Face and How to Deal with Them # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s say someone is finishing university and starting a new job. What are some key challenges they might face? Are there concepts from the book or advice you would give them to help with those challenges?\nAiden: It\u0026rsquo;s an interesting question because what you know now isn\u0026rsquo;t the same as what you knew when you first started a job. If I were just starting out and got into PwC, I\u0026rsquo;d have said, \u0026ldquo;Go work at a Big Four.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s plenty of experience. You get to try different things.\u0026rdquo; But, being older and looking back at that time, I would say to anyone who\u0026rsquo;s just graduated from university, is looking for a job and hasn\u0026rsquo;t got one yet: don\u0026rsquo;t work for a big company just because you think that\u0026rsquo;s the best thing to do.\nFor example, the startup scene here in Melbourne is amazing now. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t that way two years ago, but after COVID, there are startups everywhere. Everyone is hiring and has all this money from the rounds they\u0026rsquo;ve raised. As someone who might be just getting into a job, you want to accelerate your growth, and you\u0026rsquo;re at an age where you can take a lot of risks. Don\u0026rsquo;t work at a big tech company, a Big Four, a big law firm or whatever it is. Work at a startup because there are fewer people, so you have more time with the people who make decisions, and you\u0026rsquo;re given more responsibility more quickly.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re the kind of person who says, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m up for the challenge and want to take all that on,\u0026rdquo; then I\u0026rsquo;d say go for it. You\u0026rsquo;ll be in a much better position if you can make it through. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard of people who started at a startup, worked in product and became the head of product two or three years later.\nIf they decide to, they can then go to places like Atlassian or Canva as a senior product manager at maybe 22, 23 or 24. Meanwhile, the normal pathway to a role like that would take you until about 28 or 29, even if you were really good at your job.\nMy main advice for someone who\u0026rsquo;s just graduating is to think about it properly and make sure you\u0026rsquo;re making the best decision for you. Of course, if there are other things you need to consider, think about those as well. But if you can take the risks and are up for a challenge, maybe forgo working for a big company, join a startup and see what that can do for you.\nEric: I\u0026rsquo;d like to build on that in two ways because I absolutely agree. For any role, the first thing is to ask as many questions as you can when you join, while they still think you don\u0026rsquo;t know anything about the role. You won\u0026rsquo;t have that chance again because they\u0026rsquo;ll expect you to know your shit.\nThe second point about deciding what kind of company to join is that it\u0026rsquo;s also about knowing and figuring out your limits, which ties into mental health. If you join professional services or any Big Four, be prepared to work very long hours. If that\u0026rsquo;s the kind of work you want to do and the schedule you want to keep, fantastic.\nBut if you want to join somewhere more flexible, where you can help shape the culture and your role, maybe go for a smaller company.\nThose considerations have been important to both of us.\nJames: As you were saying, Aiden, the startup scene across Australia is becoming much larger and creating more opportunities. If you\u0026rsquo;re graduating, maybe you think you\u0026rsquo;re talented and can get a good role somewhere, but you aren\u0026rsquo;t looking at the other side and saying, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t have to work at a big, established company where I\u0026rsquo;m just in a role somewhere. I can join a startup of a few people.\u0026rdquo; As you were saying, Eric, you can really shape the company\u0026rsquo;s culture and build something there.\nI also want to touch on something else.\nAiden and Eric on the Importance of Mental Health # James: You\u0026rsquo;re both quite passionate about mental health, which you mentioned before the podcast. How did you become passionate about it? Was there any inspiration or story behind your passion in that area?\nEric: Personal experience. Mental health has always been close to my heart, and I can say the same for Aiden, through both personal experience and what we\u0026rsquo;ve seen in our peers. A mutual friend of ours passed away when we were all about 23 years old. At 23, no one knows how to handle or talk about that, so you have to figure it out as you go along. You can\u0026rsquo;t compartmentalise it; it affects everything. When those kinds of experiences stack up with stressors you acquire from the workplace, family life, personal circumstances or whatever you happen to be going through, you don\u0026rsquo;t fit the mould of what\u0026rsquo;s expected in a corporate environment. It becomes your responsibility to figure out what you can take on and set appropriate boundaries, at least in a work setting. On the personal side, that\u0026rsquo;s a whole other question you need to figure out.\nAiden: To add to that, this is a personal story. It happened back in 2016, towards the start of the year, and it\u0026rsquo;s burnt into my memory. As a 23-year-old, you go through a significant amount of change at that point in your life.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re on the cusp of your early twenties and mid-twenties, going from uni to a full-time job. I was in my final year of university, doing my final-year project and dealing with a lot of personal and family issues at the same time.\nAll those things built on each other. Then, when my friend Long passed away, it was like playing a game of Jenga. I know this is probably a bad metaphor, but it\u0026rsquo;s like playing Jenga and someone goes for the bottom piece and yanks it out.\nThe whole thing falls over. That\u0026rsquo;s what it felt like for a long time. Eric can attest to this as well: I went through a significant number of problems at that point. Work was stressing me out. I was working four days at Apple and spending three days at uni, so I didn\u0026rsquo;t have time to myself and had a lot of other stuff going on. All of that, combined with the trauma you go through when a close friend passes away, breaks you. You think, \u0026ldquo;What do I do now? I don\u0026rsquo;t really care about anything.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t want to reach out to anyone. I just want to sit at home and do nothing.\u0026rdquo; This is why mental health is such an important topic for both of us: we know what that looks like. To be completely candid, I had anxiety then and continued to have it for quite a while afterwards.\nI was diagnosed with it and took medication for it as well. We know what it\u0026rsquo;s like to be in that position and to feel a bit lost and hopeless. That\u0026rsquo;s the reason we got into mental health afterwards. We thought, \u0026ldquo;If someone else goes through something like this and you can help just one other person, you\u0026rsquo;ve brought a lot more net good into the world, haven\u0026rsquo;t you?\u0026rdquo;\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve helped someone dig themselves out of the kind of hole they might have settled into. That\u0026rsquo;s one reason we\u0026rsquo;re so passionate about mental health, along with friends around us going through similar issues. It\u0026rsquo;s been a very interesting experience looking at that.\nEric: There\u0026rsquo;s not a lot of space for mental health in the discourse around startups and hustle culture. You look at corporate startup accounts on Instagram or LinkedIn and everything\u0026rsquo;s shiny. Everyone wants to put their best foot forward.\nThese are people who go through things, and to deny that is to misrepresent the reality of what it means to work. People don\u0026rsquo;t like to talk about that.\nAiden: Exactly. This is going off on a bit of a tangent, but when you look at social media and people\u0026rsquo;s highly curated feeds, you say, \u0026ldquo;This person\u0026rsquo;s killing it. They got a job at so-and-so. This person\u0026rsquo;s killing it.\nThey got married, bought a car or bought a house.\u0026rdquo; But it can hide a lot of stuff that\u0026rsquo;s happened in their personal lives. I can attest to that because, if you looked at my LinkedIn while all of that was happening, you might have thought, \u0026ldquo;He\u0026rsquo;s doing this degree. He\u0026rsquo;s going to get a job here.\nEverything looks pretty cool for him.\u0026rdquo; Internally, I was thinking, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. I\u0026rsquo;m stuck. All this stuff has happened to me.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s something we don\u0026rsquo;t talk about a lot.\nEric: To take it back to the topic at hand, when you\u0026rsquo;re 18, 19, 20 or 21 and start a full-time job, it\u0026rsquo;s a massive period of upheaval. You go through the process: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve finished uni. I\u0026rsquo;m going to get a job. Everything\u0026rsquo;s sorted. Just try to keep it together and do well at my job.\u0026rdquo; But there\u0026rsquo;s a whole other side to it.\nYou have to manage that personally, and navigating the change can be really hard, especially if you have other stuff going on.\nJames: Are there any things you\u0026rsquo;re involved with or do to continue that interest in mental health and help people as they go through the transition of starting their first job? Is there anything you do to help with that?\nAiden: At work, I\u0026rsquo;m part of what\u0026rsquo;s called the Real Mates program. It isn\u0026rsquo;t specific to Microsoft; it was developed outside Microsoft by someone who used to work there and then left to pursue it. That\u0026rsquo;s definitely something I pursue. From a personal perspective, it\u0026rsquo;s a matter of reaching out to people and having those uncomfortable conversations.\nThe worst that could happen is that you reach out to someone and say, \u0026ldquo;How are you actually going? Is everything okay?\u0026rdquo; They might say, \u0026ldquo;Everything\u0026rsquo;s perfectly fine. Thank you for asking.\u0026rdquo; But occasionally, one person will say, \u0026ldquo;No, everything isn\u0026rsquo;t okay. Do you mind if we talk about it for a couple of minutes?\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s the opportunity to say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m in a position where I can talk to this person and let them know about my experiences.\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;ve put themselves out there and said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m willing to listen and talk.\u0026rdquo;\nYou might avoid a situation like what happened with one of our friends when we were 23. It\u0026rsquo;s a matter of making yourself a little uncomfortable, but you don\u0026rsquo;t know what you could do. You might end up saving a life.\nEric: That seems like a pretty stark juxtaposition to talking about how to get your first job or mentorship, but it needs to be part of the conversation.\nAiden: It does. Part of MentorFold isn\u0026rsquo;t just mentoring people through their careers; other problems also arise. One big issue that comes up when you\u0026rsquo;re looking for a job, moving to another job or unsure what\u0026rsquo;s happening is your mental health. It\u0026rsquo;s really good to be able to tell someone, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m struggling mentally with this decision I have to make or this thing that\u0026rsquo;s happened at work.\u0026rdquo;\nJust being able to talk to someone about it means so much more than what used to happen back in the day. One thing I really love about our generation and the one that follows is that we seem more open to talking about mental health and talking to people about it.\nYou didn\u0026rsquo;t see this kind of thing 10 years ago, when people would say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not doing so well\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going through this.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s good; there\u0026rsquo;s a lot of positive change that I really enjoy.\nEric: One initiative I\u0026rsquo;ve been involved in recently is an app called Mind Care Club. It\u0026rsquo;s grown over the last year and a half around Southeast Asia, specifically in the Philippines. It\u0026rsquo;s a telehealth counselling app: counsellors register on it, and people sign up and can call someone from their phones.\nI think it\u0026rsquo;s a subscription service. It was started by another friend of mine who also died, but that was his legacy, and I helped him plan it out a little bit. It\u0026rsquo;s something I try to stay involved with and keep tabs on.\nJames: As you\u0026rsquo;ve both said, it needs to be discussed and kept in the dialogue, especially when you go into a startup or work at a consulting company, or wherever it is, and you\u0026rsquo;re working 60 hours a week and really grinding. You want to put your best foot forward and show the world what you can do, but you don\u0026rsquo;t want that to come at the cost of your mental health. It\u0026rsquo;s about doing well in your career and being physically and mentally healthy.\nWhat makes a good career is having all those things in good condition, because if one isn\u0026rsquo;t quite there, it makes things difficult. As you were saying, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to get that out of someone.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s important to check in on your friends and make sure they\u0026rsquo;re doing okay. It\u0026rsquo;s great that you\u0026rsquo;re both involved in improving the dialogue around this kind of thing.\nAs much as has been done in the past few years, and as you were saying, Aiden, our generation is pretty good at it, there\u0026rsquo;s still work to do. People need to be more open about their mental health, without it being seen as weak to share how they\u0026rsquo;re going. Sometimes it can feel like, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not a tough guy if I tell people I\u0026rsquo;m not having a good day or my home life isn\u0026rsquo;t very good.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;re helping to create that space and improve it.\nChecking in with people about their Mental Health # James: One thing I want to touch on is your experience in the mental health area. What tips do you have for checking in with someone? As you were saying, Aiden, you can send a message. Are there other things you do or signs that someone isn\u0026rsquo;t doing okay? How can we realise that early?\nAiden: When I speak about this, I\u0026rsquo;m not speaking in any professional capacity whatsoever, and I\u0026rsquo;m not going to claim otherwise. When I look for signs that someone might be going through something, they\u0026rsquo;re usually the obvious ones. Maybe they aren\u0026rsquo;t reaching out as often or spending time doing the things they like. You might reach out and make plans with them, and they go along with the plans until the date but then bail, saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just so busy with everything else.\u0026rdquo;\nOne thing I\u0026rsquo;ve noticed, especially with people who tend to be Type A—\u0026ldquo;Got to get stuff done, got to finish everything\u0026rdquo;—is that when it comes to mental health issues, they bury themselves in work. They\u0026rsquo;ll say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m too busy. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to build this thing. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to build that thing. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to do this. I\u0026rsquo;ve got this other meeting.\u0026rdquo; If you\u0026rsquo;ve noticed them doing that more often than not, it\u0026rsquo;s a good sign to ask, \u0026ldquo;Are you actually busy, or are you trying to give yourself a lot of busywork to distract yourself from something else?\u0026rdquo;\nIt all boils down to asking them a simple question: \u0026ldquo;Are you actually okay?\u0026rdquo; Whether or not you have a good relationship with them, they might say, \u0026ldquo;You know what? I\u0026rsquo;m actually not,\u0026rdquo; and it goes from there.\nEric: I will also say that I\u0026rsquo;m not a professional. Neither of us is; we just have personal experience. There\u0026rsquo;s ample literature on this from resources like Beyond Blue or Headspace. If you\u0026rsquo;re interested, you can look it up and become acquainted with the signs and the symptoms of depression, anxiety and other conditions people may be going through, whether they admit it or not.\nSomething that isn\u0026rsquo;t talked about often is how not to come across as performative when asking. Don\u0026rsquo;t ask out of the blue, \u0026ldquo;Are you okay?\u0026rdquo; without first building a sense of vulnerability and trust. This is one problem I sometimes see with initiatives like R U OK? Day. If you ask the question just for the sake of asking because it\u0026rsquo;s that day, no one will give you a straight answer. But if you take the time to build a relationship and create a space where they feel, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not going to suffer ramifications from this, as I might if I talked to HR at work,\u0026rdquo; and it\u0026rsquo;s a conversation born out of genuine connection, that\u0026rsquo;s usually much more conducive.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one more question before we wrap up. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about how important mental health is and the importance of checking on your friends.\nAiden and Eric\u0026rsquo;s Advice for Starting Your First Job # James: What advice would you give someone starting their first job? It could be about mental health, which is obviously important, or anything you would have told yourself when you started your first job. Maybe we\u0026rsquo;ll start with Aiden.\nAiden: Going back to my conversation about startups and corporates, I\u0026rsquo;d say to take the time to research all the options available to you. If it makes sense, join a startup or, even better, start one. You\u0026rsquo;re young, you\u0026rsquo;ve got time and it might work out really well for you.\nThe second thing, more specifically to do with mental health, is to make sure you\u0026rsquo;re taking the time to preserve your own mental health. One of the best ways to do that is to set boundaries. If you think work is too much, set a clear boundary and say, \u0026ldquo;This is overstepping the bounds I\u0026rsquo;m comfortable with, so I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do it.\u0026rdquo; Communicate your boundaries clearly to the people around you as well, so they know what you can and can\u0026rsquo;t do, and go from there. The third piece of advice is more general. When you start a new job as a graduate, find out who will be on your team and take every single person out for coffee once. Make that a goal in the first month. I don\u0026rsquo;t care how many people there are—it could be five, 10 or 20. It might be a bit expensive, but take every one of them out for coffee and get to know them. Ask what makes them tick, what their work experience is and what specifically they do at work.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll tend to find that, A, they\u0026rsquo;re grateful because who doesn\u0026rsquo;t love free coffee? And, B, they get to know you on a personal level. Because of that, it\u0026rsquo;s much easier to get to grips with the team and the work, and you\u0026rsquo;ll form genuine connections within the first month.\nIn contrast, many people who tend to be quite introverted don\u0026rsquo;t talk to anyone for a few weeks. You just need to break out of your shell a little to do that.\nJames: Eric, what about you? Any advice you would give?\nEric: When I was close to graduating, I had a mentor whom I\u0026rsquo;d sought out. I went to a speech of his, and we started meeting regularly. He gave me some advice that took me two years to act on: build something. Create a visible identity, content or something you can be proud of outside your role, whatever it happens to be.\nThat does a lot of things. It gives you confidence, requires you to develop the skills needed to build whatever you want to build and makes you visible. It\u0026rsquo;s something we can now point to. We both have our own online identities that speak for us, and that\u0026rsquo;s something we go into in the book as well.\nIf I\u0026rsquo;d started earlier, it would be so much more valuable. That\u0026rsquo;s definitely something I would tell anyone who\u0026rsquo;s early in their career or still at uni: build something you can point to and say, \u0026ldquo;I built that. It\u0026rsquo;s a demonstration of what I can do.\u0026rdquo;\nAiden: To add to that, James, you\u0026rsquo;ve pretty much done it. You\u0026rsquo;ve hit the nail on the head with Graduate Theory. There you go: a shining example.\nJames: Eric, what you\u0026rsquo;re saying about building your personal brand is so important, especially today, when you can have things on the internet that let people see what you\u0026rsquo;re about and what you\u0026rsquo;ve created without having to meet or spend time with you.\nAiden, it\u0026rsquo;s also great advice to connect with your team and even the wider organisation, making networking something you do proactively and creating as much of a network as you can, especially when you\u0026rsquo;re early in your career.\nEric: If I could add to what Aiden was saying, it\u0026rsquo;s important to acknowledge the caveats that come with setting boundaries, especially when you\u0026rsquo;re starting out and want to be high-achieving. You want to make a good impression, as we said before, and it can be hard to say no or know how to say it.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a difficult thing to navigate, so you take a lot on. But the first few years of your twenties or your career are when you get to test your bandwidth and see how much work you can do and take on before you feel yourself starting to burn out. Then you stay in that range.\nOutro # James: One key is to say, \u0026ldquo;Yes, I\u0026rsquo;m going to take on that extra task, but that means I\u0026rsquo;ll do this other task more slowly.\u0026rdquo; You don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily have to say no, but you should make your manager and whoever is giving you work aware that you already have plenty to do.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s important because you don\u0026rsquo;t want to become someone who says yes to everything. You need that space for yourself. Thanks so much for coming on today. It\u0026rsquo;s been a really cool and important conversation.\nBefore we go, where are the best places to connect with both of you, find out more about MentorFold and learn about the book launching next year?\nEric: You can visit the MentorFold website. We\u0026rsquo;re growing much faster than we thought. We\u0026rsquo;ve onboarded mentors from Google, Microsoft, Bain \u0026amp; Company, Deloitte and KPMG.\nAiden: Telstra too. There are quite a few big names.\nEric: Bigger names than we anticipated. For anyone who\u0026rsquo;s at university or has just finished, I think this is a great resource that I wish we\u0026rsquo;d had when we were starting out.\nThe book will be on there as well. If you sign up, we\u0026rsquo;ll send it out to everyone on our list and on social media.\nAiden: Speaking of social media, you can contact us on LinkedIn. We\u0026rsquo;re both on there, and we can drop a link. I\u0026rsquo;m guessing you\u0026rsquo;ll put it in.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ll put all the links in the show notes, so if you\u0026rsquo;re interested in connecting with these guys, you can do it there.\nEric: I\u0026rsquo;m happy to connect or answer any questions.\nJames: Thanks so much for the chat today, guys.\nJames: Thanks so much for listening to Graduate Theory. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Aiden and Eric. I certainly got a lot out of it. If you want to find out more or get involved with Graduate Theory, you can go to GraduateTheory.com and read my takeaways and what I learnt from this episode. If you enjoyed it, consider subscribing on whatever podcast platform you\u0026rsquo;re using. If you\u0026rsquo;re on Apple Podcasts, leaving a review would also be really appreciated.\nIf you want to get new episodes in your inbox every week, please go to GraduateTheory.com and subscribe to the newsletter. You\u0026rsquo;ll get new episodes and my insights delivered straight to you.\nThanks so much again for listening today. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 9\n","date":"20 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/9-on-mentoring-and-mental-health/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 9\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Mentoring and Mental Health","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Watch This Episode on YouTube\nAndrew is the Co-Founder and CEO of Maslow. Maslow is a voice-enabled rehabilitation assistant for young people living with paralysis. Andrew is a musician and artist at heart and says that is how he learned to be a leader, innovator, and problem solver.\nMy 3 takeaways from this episode:\nThe importance of transdisciplinarity. Andrew says that his experiences across multiple domains allow him to connect with those from a wide variety of disciplines and produce better outcomes for his business.\nThe benefits of purpose-driven companies. Andrew highlights the sense of fulfillment and responsibility that comes with working on a purpose-driven business.\nThe value of trusting your gut. Andrew tells us that if he had trusted his gut, he would have started Maslow much sooner. He says if he could go back, he would trust his gut and take action. This is a theme we have heard on the podcast before. If you have that feeling in your gut, take the leap before it\u0026rsquo;s too late.\nWatch This Episode on YouTube\nConnect with Andrew https://www.maslow.io/\nAll links in one place https://linktr.ee/graduatetheory\nDirect Links # https://www.graduatetheory.com\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/buzzsprout\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube\nEpisode Content # 00:00 Andrew Akib\n00:29 Intro\n01:34 How did Andrew Get into Consulting from Music\n08:11 Music not seen as a traditional consulting degree\n08:50 What Artists are good at\n09:43 How Andrew ended up in the disability space\n17:45 Noticing and Taking Opportunities\n19:05 Passions and Identity\n21:16 Transdisciplinarity\n24:27 Range\n26:48 Purpose-Driven Businesses\n30:17 Excitement for Purpose-Driven companies\n33:52 Companies and Founders that Inspire Andrew\n35:53 Dealing with Self-Doubt\n39:14 Advice for Early Career\n42:12 Connect with Andrew\n","date":"13 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/8-on-purpose-driven-business-and-transdisciplinarity-with-co-founder-and-ceo-andrew-akib/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Watch This Episode on YouTube\nAndrew is the Co-Founder and CEO of Maslow. Maslow is a voice-enabled rehabilitation assistant for young people living with paralysis. Andrew is a musician and artist at heart and says that is how he learned to be a leader, innovator, and problem solver.\n","title":"On Purpose-Driven Business and Transdisciplinarity with Co-Founder and CEO, Andrew Akib","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 8\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today\u0026rsquo;s episode, you\u0026rsquo;ll hear about transdisciplinarity, how music can add value in unconventional ways in consulting and other fields, and what it means to be part of a purpose-driven company. I\u0026rsquo;m really excited about today\u0026rsquo;s episode, and I hope you enjoy it.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today graduated from the University of Technology Sydney in 2014 with a Bachelor of Sound and Music Design. Since then, he\u0026rsquo;s worked at companies like Commonwealth Bank, Bain and Accenture. In 2019, he co-founded his company, Maslow. Maslow is a voice-enabled rehabilitation assistant for young people living with paralysis. It empowers young people to manage rehabilitation independently and is challenging the systemic norms in disability care.\nMaslow has hundreds of users with disabilities registered across Australia and has therapists remotely managing clients in Australia. For this great work, my guest received the Foundation for Young Australians\u0026rsquo; Young Social Pioneer of 2019 award for making an impact in the disability and accessibility space.\nPlease welcome to the show, Andrew.\nHow did Andrew Get into Consulting from Music # James: Welcome to the show. You\u0026rsquo;re someone who\u0026rsquo;s had a really interesting career and is doing great work in the disability space. Before we dive into all that, I want to ask about your transition from university into the first few jobs of your career. You studied music at university and went into consulting, which is an unusual path. Was there a particular moment in that transition that led you from music into consulting?\nAndrew: First of all, thanks for that really interesting intro. Hearing you call out some of the turning points refreshed my memory of experiences I may have slightly forgotten. To answer your question, I was studying music at university and looking at the intersection of music, technology and culture.\nI really enjoyed making technology for music, whether for the stage, production or the studio, or to help bands promote and tour. It was something I enjoyed, dabbled in and approached with a sense of play.\nTowards the end of my university degree, when I was in my final semester, I thought, \u0026ldquo;While I\u0026rsquo;m a student and at university, I might as well take advantage of the resources here.\u0026rdquo; I started signing up for whatever was on: problem-solving courses and leadership and communication workshops. If anything on the events calendar looked even remotely interesting, I signed up for it.\nOne day, I\u0026rsquo;d just been to the gym, so I was running around the university in trackie dacks and looking really scruffy. I was going to a workshop I\u0026rsquo;d applied for in the new UTS building—the one that looks like a cheese grater—which had just been built, showing my age. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know my way around and saw a sign on a door that said \u0026ldquo;Digital\u0026rdquo; something, so I thought it must be my room.\nI opened the door thinking I was 15 minutes late and found no one else there. I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m late, but this is strange. There\u0026rsquo;s no one here.\u0026rdquo; One guy wearing a suit stood at the front. He looked at me and said, \u0026ldquo;Mate, what are you doing here?\u0026rdquo;\nI said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m here for a workshop.\u0026rdquo; I didn\u0026rsquo;t know which workshop because I\u0026rsquo;d signed up for everything. He said, \u0026ldquo;Okay, no worries. Tell me a bit about yourself.\u0026rdquo; I replied, \u0026ldquo;My name is Andrew. I\u0026rsquo;m studying music, and I build technology.\u0026rdquo; We got chatting, and he told me I should sit down and join the workshop. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Of course; I signed up for it.\u0026rdquo;\nThen I noticed name cards on the table, and mine wasn\u0026rsquo;t there. I sat down anyway. People began filing in wearing suits, button-up shirts and ties. I started to think I might be in the wrong workshop. They all sat down quietly, looking at me as if to ask, \u0026ldquo;What the hell is this guy doing here?\u0026rdquo;\nOnce everyone was seated, the facilitator asked, \u0026ldquo;Who here did not study commerce, business, engineering or economics?\u0026rdquo; I put my hand up. He asked what I studied, and when I said music, everybody in the room laughed. He then said, \u0026ldquo;Well, you all know why you\u0026rsquo;re here.\u0026rdquo; I thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know why I\u0026rsquo;m in this workshop. I don\u0026rsquo;t know what\u0026rsquo;s going on.\u0026rdquo;\nHe explained that we were there for a case interview for a strategy consulting role. I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve just walked into an interview I didn\u0026rsquo;t apply for and wasn\u0026rsquo;t accepted into.\u0026rdquo; Everybody else had gone through several screening interviews to get there; it was reasonably competitive.\nHe explained the interview format: we would receive a case question and use the subject-matter experts in the room to ask questions, diagnose the issue and solve the problem. The problem would differ from those familiar to people with economics, business or engineering degrees—the typical fields of study that tend to lead into consulting. The question was: \u0026ldquo;How can we help emerging musicians break above the clutter of the digital market to create a sustainable arts industry worldwide?\u0026rdquo;\nAfter the whole group had laughed at me for studying music, I thought, \u0026ldquo;Who\u0026rsquo;s laughing now?\u0026rdquo; We spent 45 minutes interviewing subject-matter experts, then each pitched a solution based on the information we\u0026rsquo;d discovered.\nBecause I\u0026rsquo;d enjoyed working in the music industry and was enthusiastic about changes in audio culture, digital streaming services and the other things I cared about, I thrived in the interview. I enjoyed talking to the subject-matter experts. When it was time to pitch, I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just going to get this out of the way.\u0026rdquo; I was uncomfortable and anxious because everyone had laughed at me and I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what was going on.\nI pitched a solution, talked about my background in the music industry and said, \u0026ldquo;All right, cool. I\u0026rsquo;m going now.\u0026rdquo; As I left, one of the interview facilitators chased me down and said, \u0026ldquo;Andrew, I have to introduce you to somebody.\u0026rdquo; He introduced me to the partner of the strategy practice who was heading up the media and entertainment division. They invited me to become a strategy consultant and help them sell to some of their new music-industry clients. It was a very serendipitous event, much like the first episode of Suits, if you\u0026rsquo;ve ever seen it.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s how I accidentally walked into the wrong room and became a consultant.\nJames: Wow. That is amazing and such a special story. How things turned out after that, getting you to where you are now, has been life-changing.\nAndrew: One of the biggest things I will say is that, at the time, I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what was happening or where any of it would lead. I felt really uncomfortable about all these people in suits and ties from traditional career paths laughing at me because they didn\u0026rsquo;t think a musician could become a consultant. On the other side of that, though, it made sense. People supported me along the way and embraced those skills. It was all about being myself and embracing what I enjoyed doing.\nJames: Absolutely. Your story illustrates what you mean.\nMusic not seen as a traditional consulting degree # James: You were laughed at because you were studying music. There\u0026rsquo;s definitely a stigma around some of the arts because people don\u0026rsquo;t see them as traditional careers. Yet, in my experience—and you\u0026rsquo;re a great example—there are people in the arts doing great things.\nHaving that diverse skill set and being able to approach problems in new ways is unique. It\u0026rsquo;s great to see that you can take skills that aren\u0026rsquo;t traditional for consulting roles and still have a positive impact.\nWhat Artists are good at # Andrew: Definitely. Artists are incredibly good at a few things that business innovators are seeking. They understand how to craft a highly emotive and engaging experience on a very minimal budget. Behind the scenes, it might be scrappy and essentially just an MVP, but the audience sees a beautiful, polished performance.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the lean MVP approach, especially in entrepreneurship and innovation: build, test, break and iterate. Artists are fundamentally good at leaning into emotional connections with an audience and achieving them through consumer products. These are the mindsets business innovators are seeking, and artists have had them down pat for centuries.\nHow Andrew ended up in the disability space # James: That\u0026rsquo;s really exciting. You transitioned into the corporate world and consulting. How did you then end up in disability support, where your startup now operates?\nAndrew: The great thing about consulting is that you can dabble in many industries, become enough of a subject-matter expert and then move on to the next thing.\nI was lucky enough to work in media and entertainment, but I also worked in social enterprise across Southeast Asia, doing strategy and product work for several social enterprises. I was also lucky enough to work on major healthcare systems in Australia, designing products and understanding the consumer experience. That allowed me to develop skills across social impact, healthcare and digital music.\nThe trigger that made us say, \u0026ldquo;We should start a business ourselves,\u0026rdquo; was an event involving a friend of my best friend and me. He was studying at university and training for a triathlon when he slipped, hit his head and suffered a traumatic brain injury. Afterwards, he spent nine months in a rehabilitation hospital, paralysed and having lost his memory.\nTherapists taught him everything he would need to do when he returned home: pressure care, managing support workers, exercise physiology and training, changing a catheter, and managing his mobility. That\u0026rsquo;s a lot to take in when someone has suffered a brain injury, is paralysed and is going through a traumatic experience.\nWhen he was discharged from the rehabilitation hospital, he and his family forgot much of what they\u0026rsquo;d learnt. That made it challenging to stay on top of his therapy programs and manage his team of support workers. Beyond the minimum care and rehabilitation they\u0026rsquo;d been taught, there was no time for the things that make you human, like returning to university or finding a job, because he spent so much time managing his physiological health. It made simply enjoying being human much harder. He was readmitted to hospital with infections, complications and other issues that could have been avoided.\nMy background in product and user experience, combined with my best friend\u0026rsquo;s background as a therapist, made us think there had to be a way to address some of the challenges our friend faced through technology. There had to be a way to improve access to information, because technology has always been amazing at helping people access information. There had to be a way to address care-team management because technology is also amazing at connecting and coordinating. And there had to be a way to use technology to help him access things remotely from home. Look at us right now: we\u0026rsquo;ve never met in person, yet we\u0026rsquo;re having a conversation online.\nThat was the spark that made us say, \u0026ldquo;This is worth solving.\u0026rdquo; We didn\u0026rsquo;t immediately start Maslow or decide to create a company simply because there was a challenge. We spent an entire year slowly testing the waters before I quit my consulting job. We connected with hundreds of young people with spinal cord injuries across Australia, from Perth to the Northern Territory and almost every major city.\nWe didn\u0026rsquo;t try to force a solution on anyone, put one in front of them or recommend anything. We simply listened. We wanted to understand whether the experiences of young people with spinal cord and traumatic brain injuries across Australia were similar to or different from our friend\u0026rsquo;s experience.\nWe listened, then co-designed and co-created what people asked for. Several themes were prevalent. People found it hard to stay on top of therapy programs from home. They were frustrated by having to educate support workers verbally every day. They wished for one platform where they could do all of this and remotely access their content, because they were tired of travelling to clinical appointments for basic needs.\nThroughout 2019, we immersed ourselves in the community, researching and listening while prototyping and testing with the group. Before we even launched, we\u0026rsquo;d built a community that knew exactly what it wanted and what we were delivering, while we knew exactly what its setup was.\nIt wasn\u0026rsquo;t until March 2020 that we were forced to push something live. The community we were co-designing with already had difficulty accessing healthcare, managing support workers and finding digital solutions that therapists weren\u0026rsquo;t willing to provide. Then everyone was locked out of their clinics because of COVID.\nMany people may not know that those with severe disabilities and paralysis were at the highest risk at the time and were among those with the most fear. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t like it was for you or me, where we could think, \u0026ldquo;This may not affect us that badly.\u0026rdquo; Someone living with respiratory issues saw COVID as something that could genuinely have a severe negative impact on their health and well-being at a young age.\nThe relationship changed from, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re prototyping this virtual solution with these people,\u0026rdquo; to them saying, \u0026ldquo;That prototype you\u0026rsquo;ve been developing with us? I could really use it now. I need remote access to my therapist and a way to manage my support workers\u0026rsquo; activities around the COVID protections.\u0026rdquo; We were forced to push it live in March 2020, and things grew from there.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s another fascinating story. Like the earlier one, an event thrust you into a new world and brought about great things.\nAndrew: I reflect on both events a lot. I don\u0026rsquo;t want it to sound as though a golden opportunity was presented at the time, because neither scenario made sense then. It\u0026rsquo;s only in hindsight that I can say how it all hangs together.\nEven with Maslow, when we went out and did research in 2019, we didn\u0026rsquo;t know what we were doing, what we would build or even exactly which problem we were solving. I can talk about it now because I\u0026rsquo;ve gone through the experience and learnt from it, but back then we were making it up as we went and learning to be entrepreneurs.\nWe didn\u0026rsquo;t say, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re going to be startup founders,\u0026rdquo; and immediately possess the skills, capabilities, maturity and expectations. We simply had naivety and an intent to do it. The experience since then, and embracing what we\u0026rsquo;ve learnt, has enabled us to say, \u0026ldquo;This is why we did it. This is what we learnt, and this is what we needed to do.\u0026rdquo;\nNoticing and Taking Opportunities # James: Absolutely. One thing that comes through in both stories is that it\u0026rsquo;s one thing to have opportunities presented or thrust upon you, and another to act on and seize them.\nAndrew: Absolutely. Even before that, it\u0026rsquo;s one thing simply to notice those opportunities.\nIn the first example, it may look as though I luckily turned up to the consulting case interview, but that isn\u0026rsquo;t really the case. I was panicking because I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what I would do after graduating, so I was frantically signing up for everything I could and turning up to see what happened.\nWithout that, the opportunity wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have presented itself, nor would I have had the skills to act on it. Had I not possessed the naivety to stay after realising I was in the wrong group, I couldn\u0026rsquo;t have seized it. It was a mixture of luck, naivety—which can be a great thing—and being able both to enjoy an opportunity\u0026rsquo;s discomfort and recognise it when it arose.\nJames: Definitely. I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. Your initiative comes through.\nPassions and Identity # Andrew: I want to point to another element. It can feel intangible when people tell you it\u0026rsquo;s important—laugh if you will—but that\u0026rsquo;s passion.\nPassion has an interesting role in creating opportunities, and it manifests in logical, non-fluffy ways—not simply asking the universe to deliver. When you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about something, you take it on as part of your identity.\nFor me, that was music and technology, web design and some related interests. Because I\u0026rsquo;d taken those on as part of my identity, when I met someone and we talked about what we did or cared about, the conversation tended to steer towards music technology. I\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really interested in that.\u0026rdquo;\nIf you meet 100 people and they all remember you as the music-technology person, suddenly 100 people are your eyes and ears for opportunities that might suit you. They may meet someone with an opportunity, remember that Andrew was the music-technology person and introduce you to them. That\u0026rsquo;s a tangible way passion manifests itself.\nIt mattered when I walked into that room, met a stranger and felt scared, wearing trackie dacks and looking scruffy rather than a well-curated suit. When they asked who I was and what I did, I said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m Andrew. I\u0026rsquo;m a musician, and I also make music technology.\u0026rdquo; Had I not presented that passion, I probably would have been booted out of the room.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. As you said, having and cultivating that passion can lead to interesting opportunities. You\u0026rsquo;ve had diverse experiences in music, consulting and now disability. You\u0026rsquo;re not a complete generalist, but how does that breadth help you see problems differently and create innovative solutions?\nTransdisciplinarity # Andrew: Definitely. There\u0026rsquo;s a field of thought and leadership that people describe as transdisciplinarity. It sounds buzzwordy when you say it aloud, as do \u0026ldquo;cross-functional collaboration\u0026rdquo; and the variations used in different industries. You have to ask what it actually means.\nSomething happens naturally across industries as people develop deep skill sets, whether scientific, mathematical or engineering. The deeper someone gets into their skill set in conventional fields, the less capable they tend to become of collaborating at that same depth with people from other disciplines. As a result, silos are built into industries.\nHealthcare is a good example. Hospitals hire clinicians to run their businesses, technology and entire practices. They don\u0026rsquo;t hire digital-transformation experts. Especially before COVID, the people designing solutions in hospitals were clinicians, so those solutions were very clinically oriented. That\u0026rsquo;s great, but when the world shifted and everything had to become remote, the healthcare system suddenly needed to catch up.\nThe people able to guide and inform that transition had enough expertise in the clinical space and enough in the digital or another space to enable collaboration and get the most from both worlds.\nFor me, touching on many topics just deeply enough has enabled me to collaborate with a broad range of people, whether artists, technologists, clinicians or designers. It always takes several different skill sets to get something new off the ground. In terms of transdisciplinarity, the magical things in this world happen between disciplines and industries.\nThe value of my diverse experience is that I can quickly build a team, gel with everyone and help them gel with one another. I understand enough about how people work across industries and skill sets to create cohesive collaboration. I also understand how people think, what motivates them and how they solve problems.\nTo answer your question, being an expert generalist, touching on different things and having varied experience is quite unique because the output is unique. You can collaborate with a unique set of people and fundamentally create new things.\nRange # James: I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you\u0026rsquo;ve heard of or read the book Range by David Epstein. It explores specialists and generalists: who succeeds in different scenarios, where discoveries come from, and whether you should build your career as a specialist or generalist. He found that new creations and insights often come from people who look from one domain across others, rather than going extremely deep in a single domain. It sounds like that\u0026rsquo;s what you\u0026rsquo;ve found too.\nAndrew: Absolutely. Even if you have diverse experience in two completely separate fields or change careers, some people think, \u0026ldquo;If I change careers, I\u0026rsquo;m losing all the specialised knowledge I have in one field. I\u0026rsquo;m going into something as the underdog and starting from zero.\u0026rdquo;\nOthers see a career change as bringing a type of thinking that\u0026rsquo;s completely new to an industry. That\u0026rsquo;s a competitive advantage and a platform, not a hindrance. For people with varied experience—not just at work but in sport, music, art, hobbies, religion, science or philosophy—think about how to use what you know as a strength to inform something that hasn\u0026rsquo;t been exposed to it before. Use that analogous experience, and suddenly diversity becomes a superpower rather than a hindrance.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. It\u0026rsquo;s something I try to do in my own life and would absolutely recommend. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to mean changing careers. It could be a side hustle in an unrelated field that interests you, or picking up a hobby unrelated to work, just to give you that contrast.\nPurpose Driven Businesses # James: Another idea that comes through with Maslow is the purpose-driven company. You\u0026rsquo;ve moved from the traditionally lucrative field of consulting into making the world better by creating a product that helps people on a personal level. What has your experience of this purpose-first approach been, and would you recommend it to more people?\nAndrew: That relates to what we discussed earlier about passion. Individual passion attracts people and opportunities because others can understand and latch on to it. The same is true for a purpose-driven business. People often describe this in fluffy terms, but it manifests in very literal and logical ways. As a business leader, employee, customer or partner, you can come to the table and say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m truly passionate about what this solves, how it solves it, and the outcome and vision we\u0026rsquo;re all working together to create.\u0026rdquo; For Maslow, that means making it as easy as possible for people with disabilities to manage their care and rehabilitation at home. That\u0026rsquo;s a fundamental purpose. It\u0026rsquo;s not just mine; it belongs to our audience and community.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s our employees\u0026rsquo;, partners\u0026rsquo; and investors\u0026rsquo; purpose. Everybody rallies around it, and everybody has helped shape it. I told you about the year we spent immersing ourselves in the lives of young people with severe spinal injuries. This is the purpose they want, and we\u0026rsquo;re on the journey with them.\nWhen you speak about passion or purpose, the right employees are attracted to you. People want to collaborate because they\u0026rsquo;ve seen the problem before. The right investors are attracted to you because they understand its importance from a purely altruistic standpoint, not just a profitable one.\nPurpose also makes design and strategic decisions easier because you have a central point to refer back to, rather than simply making a quick buck. It keeps your team and partners grounded and united, making tough conversations easier: when you need to compromise, you can return to whether a choice helps achieve the purpose.\nThat war cry or rallying cry is much louder and stronger than one from a purely for-profit company that doesn\u0026rsquo;t have as tangible an impact on people or communities. Every company develops a rationale for how it makes an impact, but there are different flavours and degrees of separation. When the impact is real and tangible, and you can speak about it and bring the right people to the table, you find motivated people who truly want to succeed and help.\nExcitement for Purpose Driven companies # James: Do you see companies like yours becoming more common, especially among younger people? Many are trying to leave the corporate world, and with everyone changing jobs and talk of a job exodus, people seem to be struggling to find meaning and purpose in their work. Is that something you\u0026rsquo;ve seen, and does it excite you?\nAndrew: It does. This could become a very philosophical discussion, but there are many things in the world worth fixing. A mass exodus of people from corporations—the Great Resignation, or whatever you want to call it—doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean corporations lack purpose or guidance. It means people are moving towards the idea that \u0026ldquo;I want to tangibly see the grassroots impact of what I\u0026rsquo;m doing.\u0026rdquo;\nThe consumer market is also changing. People are saying, \u0026ldquo;I will make decisions about products based on whether they have a tangible impact on the world.\u0026rdquo; That will create an accelerating surge of impact-driven businesses, whether they address climate change, social dialogue or something else.\nAs that becomes normal and consumers start making decisions that support these companies, the entire ecosystem will enable purpose-driven businesses. We\u0026rsquo;ll end up in a world where people have a stronger voice. People won\u0026rsquo;t be in careers simply because a corporation offers them a reasonable salary and the hope of buying a house with a picket fence. Companies will exist that support employees to make an impact on the world.\nThe world will then change rapidly, giving us a better chance of addressing the major issues humanity faces, including climate change, misinformation and social divisiveness. Those are all good things, and they get me really excited.\nI want to hear about more people stepping into purpose-driven business. Purpose and profit aren\u0026rsquo;t mutually exclusive. If there\u0026rsquo;s a genuine problem to solve and you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about it, there are probably thousands, if not millions, of others who want it solved as collaborators, customers, partners or investors.\nIf your war cry is loud enough, they\u0026rsquo;ll hear you and come to help. If anyone takes one thing away from this, let it be this: if you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about starting a purpose-driven business and don\u0026rsquo;t know what to do, good. Start. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what I wanted to do or what the other side of the fence looked like. Nobody does. You can only find out by walking through the door. If it doesn\u0026rsquo;t work, that\u0026rsquo;s fine; you\u0026rsquo;ve probably learnt a lot and can take those analogous skills elsewhere. If it does work, you\u0026rsquo;ve created an impact and brought people together. That gets me very excited.\nCompanies and Founders that Inspire Andrew # James: Are there any companies, founders, people in your network or others you respect that you see as great examples?\nAndrew: In Australia, Hireup is a platform for hiring disability support workers. They\u0026rsquo;ve completely shifted how people think about hiring disability support.\nIts leadership has made purpose-driven decisions from the start. Those decisions have attracted good teams, funders and partners, and created a good value proposition and market position. At times, they\u0026rsquo;ve taken the less profitable but more purposeful option.\nI think it\u0026rsquo;s paid off in the long run, so kudos to Jordan O\u0026rsquo;Reilly and the Hireup team. The emergence of neobanks focused on impact investment is also positive. It shows how young people\u0026rsquo;s capital can be put to good use through impact investing rather than the more traditional investments superannuation funds might choose. Neomi, at neomi.io, is one of my favourites. The areas closest to my heart in Australia are the disability-technology landscape, of which we\u0026rsquo;re part, and the impact-lending landscape. I believe the latter is the way of the future and should fuel purpose-driven businesses.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. You get so excited about this space that it\u0026rsquo;s almost infectious, because you can see the good coming out of it. Anyone can look at it and think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s something I want to be part of.\u0026rdquo; As you say, it\u0026rsquo;s purpose-driven business. I\u0026rsquo;m excited about what the future holds and what you\u0026rsquo;re going to achieve. It\u0026rsquo;s very exciting.\nDealing with Self-Doubt # James: I have two more questions. The first is about self-doubt, a theme that has come through in many of my podcast episodes. We\u0026rsquo;ve already discussed examples: you\u0026rsquo;re sitting in the interview, you\u0026rsquo;re unsure what to do and perhaps really doubting yourself. This whole startup journey must also have brought plenty of self-development and growth. Have you had any major experiences of doubting yourself? Do you have a process for dealing with it?\nAndrew: Self-doubt, imposter syndrome and fear of what\u0026rsquo;s on the other side will arise no matter where or who you are. If you take on an endeavour, that feeling is inevitable.\nYour relationship with that feeling is what\u0026rsquo;s really important. Learning to become comfortable navigating ambiguity and leaning into the unknown or an uncomfortable space is essential. Overcoming it begins with noticing that it\u0026rsquo;s happening.\nThis draws on meditation or that line of thinking, but first and foremost, it\u0026rsquo;s important to know when you\u0026rsquo;re experiencing self-doubt and say, \u0026ldquo;That uncomfortable feeling causing me to question myself is just fear and self-doubt, and it\u0026rsquo;s going to happen.\u0026rdquo;\nThe second part is finding your cheerleaders, friends and trusted people who can help you build confidence and challenge the flawed logic behind that self-doubt. Sit with them and talk it through, because at the end of the day, you probably are good enough.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why you\u0026rsquo;re even thinking about an opportunity. If you\u0026rsquo;re doubting yourself, you\u0026rsquo;ve been presented with an opportunity, and if you\u0026rsquo;ve been presented with it, you\u0026rsquo;re probably good enough to take it. You may fail. That\u0026rsquo;s also very true, and that\u0026rsquo;s okay. But if you don\u0026rsquo;t try, you\u0026rsquo;ll never have the option to succeed or fail.\nThere are a few elements. First, recognise when it\u0026rsquo;s happening and know it\u0026rsquo;s a natural feeling that means you\u0026rsquo;re leaning into the unknown. Know that you\u0026rsquo;re good enough because you\u0026rsquo;ve been presented with the opportunity. Lean on the people around you who support and motivate you, get out of your own head and recognise that you can\u0026rsquo;t know what the opportunity could become unless you lean into it. That feeling is going to happen.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. You\u0026rsquo;ve faced it, I\u0026rsquo;ve faced it, and I haven\u0026rsquo;t met anyone who hasn\u0026rsquo;t. It\u0026rsquo;s something you have to work through.\nAndrew: It gets easier the more you do it. You recognise the pattern more readily and can say, \u0026ldquo;Okay, this is just a feeling.\u0026rdquo; You change your relationship with it.\nAdvice for Early Career # James: I have one more question, which I ask all my guests. Given where you are in your career now, imagine you\u0026rsquo;ve just finished university and are about to start your first job. What advice would you give yourself after all these experiences?\nAndrew: I would tell myself not to kick the can down the road. If you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about doing something, do it. I probably would have started Maslow a couple of years earlier. I still would have been scared, but I should have made the decision earlier.\nThis applies to many things. Without pointing to specific experiences, I can sum it up this way: whatever you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about, start it earlier. Further down the track, you\u0026rsquo;ll reflect and realise you wasted time waiting.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s okay, but there\u0026rsquo;s no harm in starting something new if that\u0026rsquo;s what you want. You\u0026rsquo;re either going to start it or you\u0026rsquo;re not. The two or four years a degree takes will pass anyway, so you might as well do it. You\u0026rsquo;ll continue progressing in your career and may become bored anyway, so you might as well start the new thing now. If you\u0026rsquo;re thinking about doing something, don\u0026rsquo;t wait.\nJames: I experienced it with this podcast: I wanted to start it for a year and a half before I finally did. One lesson is to listen to what\u0026rsquo;s inside and trust your gut.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a recurring theme on the podcast: the feeling is showing you something, and you should go for it. Another idea is using mortality as motivation. It sounds morbid and strange, but it\u0026rsquo;s a useful thought exercise: \u0026ldquo;I have this feeling and want to do this thing. I may have self-doubt, but one day I\u0026rsquo;ll be old and look back on this exact time.\u0026rdquo;\nAndrew: You\u0026rsquo;re going to die anyway.\nEvery year you put off doing something is a year you\u0026rsquo;ll never get back. Don\u0026rsquo;t be hard on yourself if you don\u0026rsquo;t act, but give it a shot.\nJames: That thought has given me a lot of perspective. Like you, getting out there, taking opportunities and squeezing the juice out of life is fantastic, and it\u0026rsquo;s great to see.\nConnect with Andrew # James: I think we\u0026rsquo;ll wrap up the interview there. Before we do, where can people learn more about what you do and connect with you?\nAndrew: If you want to follow Maslow\u0026rsquo;s journey on Instagram, we tell customer stories and shed light on the hidden world of people living with disabilities, which much of the public doesn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily understand or experience. Our goal is to deconstruct that, break the stigma, normalise it and show that people living with disabilities are simply trying to live their lives too, just like anybody else. You can follow us on Instagram at Maslow for People.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re a therapist, support worker, person living with a disability, caregiver or caregiver of an elderly parent who has support workers, you can go to maslow.io and sign up. The platform helps reconnect you, your family or loved ones with therapists, support workers and everything needed to manage care better.\nJames: Amazing. Thanks so much for your time today, Andrew.\nThank you for listening to that episode with Andrew Akib. Andrew is a great example of someone who took an unconventional university degree and applied it in unique ways, creating distinctive insights throughout his career. He also shared great thoughts on what it means to be part of a purpose-driven company.\nMy first takeaway was transdisciplinarity and the idea of becoming a generalist rather than a specialist. Books I\u0026rsquo;ve read, things I\u0026rsquo;ve seen and Andrew\u0026rsquo;s experience all show how applying skills in unconventional ways can lead to valuable insights and discoveries.\nMy second takeaway was the purpose-driven company. When you work for a large organisation, you can sometimes—but not always—feel disconnected from its purpose. Running something like Maslow, which stays so close to its purpose, is powerful.\nIt feels good to be part of a genuinely purpose-first company. My third takeaway was self-doubt and trusting your gut, a theme we\u0026rsquo;ve discussed several times on the podcast and which came up again today with Andrew. As he said, trusting your gut is important, and it\u0026rsquo;s something we can all pay attention to.\nThanks so much for listening today. If you want to keep in touch, follow the podcast more deeply or get involved, please follow the links in the show notes. They will take you here, there and everywhere. You can also subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you\u0026rsquo;re using.\nThat way, you won\u0026rsquo;t miss an episode. To go to the next level, visit GraduateTheory.com and subscribe to the newsletter for my insights, reminders and new episodes straight to your inbox. It would be great to have you on board as we learn about careers and career growth. Thanks again for listening, and we\u0026rsquo;ll see you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 8\n","date":"13 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/8-on-purpose-driven-business-and-transdisciplinarity-with-co-founder-and-ceo-andrew-akib/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 8\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Purpose Driven Business and Transdisciplinarity with Co-founder and CEO, Andrew Akib","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Lidia was a Partner at Reunion Capital Partners and previously a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs. She has over 25 years of experience in the finance industry, predominantly in the capital markets. Lidia also holds a Masters of Science in Coaching Psychology from The University of Sydney and is an Associate Member of the University of Sydney Coaching and Mentoring Alumni. She founded On Purpose to help clients identify, align with and act ‘on purpose\u0026rsquo; in their pursuit of excellence.\nIn this episode we speak about:\nwhat is your purpose\nimportance of recovery\ncreating relationships\nand much more.\nWatch This Episode on YouTube\nMy top 4 takeaways from this episode:\nYour purpose changes over time. It\u0026rsquo;s important to recognise this and not get the idea that you have one purpose for your entire life\nMany roles and careers can make you feel the way that you want. Often we want a purpose so that we can have that feeling of \u0026lsquo;making it\u0026rsquo;. In reality, many careers and many things that you could do would get you to this feeling. It\u0026rsquo;s all about finding one that also matches things we need in the real world like money and time.\nRest and recovery are important and are things that aren\u0026rsquo;t emphasised in the corporate world. Take time to make sure your physical and mental health are in good condition\nTrust your gut when making career choices. At the end of the episode, Lidia tells a great story about how she\u0026rsquo;d started a new career in Law and how within 3 months she knew that it wasn\u0026rsquo;t for her. She speaks to the importance of listening to your gut, and to asking yourself an important question. If you can\u0026rsquo;t see yourself doing your bosses job, then are you in the right place?\nConnect with Lidia https://www.onpurpose.com.au/\nWatch This Episode on YouTube\n","date":"6 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/7-on-purpose-and-high-performance-with-former-md-goldman-sachs-lidia-ranieri/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Lidia was a Partner at Reunion Capital Partners and previously a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs. She has over 25 years of experience in the finance industry, predominantly in the capital markets. Lidia also holds a Masters of Science in Coaching Psychology from The University of Sydney and is an Associate Member of the University of Sydney Coaching and Mentoring Alumni. She founded On Purpose to help clients identify, align with and act ‘on purpose’ in their pursuit of excellence.\n","title":"On Purpose and High Performance with Former MD Goldman Sachs, Lidia Ranieri","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 7\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today graduated from the University of Technology Sydney in 1994 with a Bachelor of Business and a Bachelor of Law. In that same year, she started working as a research analyst at the investment bank Citigroup, later moving into small-company equity sales.\nAfter working at Citi for nearly 10 years, she moved to Credit Suisse, where she continued to work with small companies. In 2006, my guest took a new role as executive director of small-company equity sales at Goldman Sachs, becoming managing director of that same area four years later. In 2013, she started work as a partner at Reunion Capital Partners, and in 2018 she completed her Master of Coaching Psychology. In early 2020, she started her current coaching brand, On Purpose.\nOn Purpose supports leaders and teams to operate effectively in today\u0026rsquo;s complex business environment by teaching conscious leadership. My guest today helps leaders work on their inner game towards self-mastery and wisdom, enabling them to act with authenticity, integrity, courage, and compassion so that breakthrough performance and results can be achieved.\nPlease welcome to the show the wonderful Lidia Ranieri.\nLidia: Hi, James. Thank you very much for that lovely introduction. I\u0026rsquo;m really looking forward to our chat today.\nWhat Does it mean to be \u0026lsquo;On Purpose?\u0026rsquo; # James: It\u0026rsquo;s clear you\u0026rsquo;ve had an outstanding career. Your coaching brand is called On Purpose, so what does it mean to you to be on purpose?\nLidia: The name came to me because I was trying to think of a business name that captured a number of things. On purpose means doing something with intention, and if you\u0026rsquo;re doing something with intention, then you\u0026rsquo;re doing something consciously. I wanted to bring that in, but I also wanted to overlay the idea that, at some stage in our lives—whether it starts in our teenage years or in early adulthood—we yearn for a connection to our purpose, whatever that may be.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a vague thing. People rarely have real clarity around their purpose, and it\u0026rsquo;s not something that you can know with your head; it\u0026rsquo;s something that you feel. Having done the master\u0026rsquo;s in coaching psychology, I became interested in working with people to ensure that, whatever they\u0026rsquo;re doing, they feel that connection to the thought, \u0026ldquo;This is right. This is my path. This is what I\u0026rsquo;m meant to be doing.\u0026rdquo;\nAlternatively, when you\u0026rsquo;re in a role because of a lot of extraneous factors, but inwardly you\u0026rsquo;re suffering or waking up with that dread of, \u0026ldquo;I just don\u0026rsquo;t want to go in today,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t want to do this,\u0026rdquo; I help people have the courage to explore, with intention and consciously, what feels more like their purpose. That was the reason for the name.\nHow do you find your purpose? # James: The idea of almost following your gut in what you\u0026rsquo;re doing has come up in a few of the episodes I\u0026rsquo;ve done so far. That comes back to what you\u0026rsquo;re saying: purpose is hard to describe and something that you never really find, although you know when you have it. Following your gut has come up a lot, and it\u0026rsquo;s quite important.\nAre there any steps that you would take to find your purpose? It\u0026rsquo;s difficult, but how can we find it?\nLidia: When I work with people to explore this, one approach is to use a visual cue. I had to give a whole presentation on this topic, and when I was putting together the slides, I included a collection of images I had found of children around four or five years old: one dressed as a doctor, one as a superhero, one as a little scientist in a science lab, another standing on a stage singing, and another in dance clothes.\nI use these images because, when we go back and unravel it, purpose is strongly linked to two key things. The first is our strengths. We love to use our strengths. They\u0026rsquo;re our God-given talents; they\u0026rsquo;re innate. When we give them expression, it feels really good. It feels natural, like we\u0026rsquo;re doing the right thing. The second is what\u0026rsquo;s important to us: what we value. Why does one person value doing a certain thing while another person values something else? It all links into this intricate internal system that has this knowing.\nWhen I encourage clients to come up with these images for themselves, I might use the example of the child standing on stage performing and invite them to think about a time when they had such an image for themselves. The point of that image and metaphor is not necessarily, \u0026ldquo;I want to be a singer, an actor, or a performer.\u0026rdquo; It may mean that, but it also indicates that something within you really enjoys expressing itself to an audience.\nYou may need to find a role that allows you to give a lot of presentations because, when you\u0026rsquo;re presenting, you feel on, energised, and vital. You love seeing the responses from the people sitting in the room where you\u0026rsquo;re giving your performance.\nFor others, it may be the child in the lab coat. Curiosity may be a burning feeling within them, and they need to work in a way that ignites their curiosity about the world. It\u0026rsquo;s those inroads that link to finding our purpose.\nChildhood is a fertile place to do some of this exploration because psychologists have found that children enter very naturally into what we call the flow state. One of the renowned researchers and psychologists in this area was Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who did a lot of research. Various other psychologists have also worked in this area.\nWhat they\u0026rsquo;ve found is that, when we enter a flow state, we\u0026rsquo;re doing something truly engaging but just challenging enough. When we get to that place, we can do it for a very long time. Time doesn\u0026rsquo;t even occur to us. We enter a timeless state, focus on the task, and stop focusing on ourselves.\nThe flow state is the state we want high-performing athletes and corporate executives to enter, but you can only enter it when the activity genuinely engages you and you have intrinsic motivation around it. That\u0026rsquo;s why childhood is such an interesting place to start exploring: we don\u0026rsquo;t have any of those conditioned statements—\u0026ldquo;I should,\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;I ought to,\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;Everyone says I must\u0026rdquo;—that create beliefs within us. We are just who we are, so we can look back and say, \u0026ldquo;I really loved doing that.\u0026rdquo;\nOf course, there are practicalities such as earning a decent income. You need to map some real-world considerations over those inner motivational states, but childhood is a good place to start finding your purpose.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard from friends who went down one path and then changed direction that it was a process of winding back their lives to the stage where they made a key decision. Maybe it was what to study or which subjects to pick in high school. They went back to that crossroads and reassessed whether it was the right choice. Even though you have to wind back a little, you can start going somewhere else that resonates more with you.\nLidia: That\u0026rsquo;s right. Life affords us many opportunities to come to a crossroads. They present themselves at different times for different people, but those crossroads emerge because we\u0026rsquo;re being invited to answer the question, \u0026ldquo;What is it that I really want to do?\u0026rdquo;\nWe think about that as, \u0026ldquo;Do I want to do this subject or that subject, this course or that course, or this job or that job?\u0026rdquo; But beneath the surface, the question is, \u0026ldquo;What part of me needs expression here? What part of me do I want to give expression to in an outer-world context where I\u0026rsquo;m applying myself every day?\u0026rdquo;\nKnowing your strengths and values can help you navigate those decisions so that you\u0026rsquo;re more closely aligned with giving yourself that expression. From a psychological standpoint, that\u0026rsquo;s what leads to fulfilment, life satisfaction, and happiness.\nJames: Do you think it\u0026rsquo;s possible to find your purpose holistically, or is it a moving target that you\u0026rsquo;re getting closer to over time? Perhaps you never really get there. Sometimes you think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to find my purpose and do this. This feels good, so I\u0026rsquo;m going to keep going—but maybe it\u0026rsquo;s not quite right.\u0026rdquo;\nDo you ever reach the stage where you can say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve found exactly what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do. This is it. I\u0026rsquo;ve finally made it\u0026rdquo;? Or is it always a moving target where you\u0026rsquo;re getting closer and finding your way?\nLidia: I think we burden ourselves with the idea that there is one purpose. Some amazing individuals may be born to a purpose. For example, you might think that Michael Jordan was born to be one of the best basketball players the world has ever seen, but that would rob him of having any purpose now because he\u0026rsquo;s not doing that anymore.\nI like to think that we have a purpose that may be a staged experience. My purpose in a particular role and at a particular time may simply be an apprenticeship. I\u0026rsquo;m in a learning mode; that\u0026rsquo;s my purpose right now. I\u0026rsquo;m in a skill-acquisition mode, and it needs to be aligned with where I have a natural interest and can develop real competency because then I feel good about myself. I need to do something where I can see myself improving; otherwise, I get demotivated.\nPurpose can be for this moment in time: this is the right place and the right role for me, as long as I\u0026rsquo;m giving the fullest expression to things that make me feel vital and engaged. When that has run its course—for reasons we\u0026rsquo;ve all experienced but can\u0026rsquo;t necessarily explain—your interest starts to wane. You think, \u0026ldquo;This just isn\u0026rsquo;t doing it for me anymore. I\u0026rsquo;m not that interested.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a sign that it\u0026rsquo;s time to move into another phase.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s still your purpose because, as you say, you never arrive. It\u0026rsquo;s a journey of giving yourself the opportunity to express yourself at your fullest capacity and highest level of functioning. Some phases are for learning. Other phases may involve working on something to prepare for the next stage. They\u0026rsquo;re like Lego blocks: they build on each other.\nYou may then have a peak experience, and that peak experience—Michael Jordan is an example—may last for a number of years. It may be acclaimed, revered, or recognised, but it might not receive outward recognition. It may simply be your own experience of a golden era. Then it changes and your purpose moves into something else.\nOur purpose is interwoven through a journey in which we change in wisdom and experience. Our age and stage of life also determine what we\u0026rsquo;re more attuned to. I like to help people by unburdening them of the idea that there\u0026rsquo;s one thing. There are many paths to getting there, and they may all lead to what I think everyone wants: that peak expression, that golden moment, and a way to sustain it.\nWhen I talk to executives about performance and the idea that it\u0026rsquo;s marked by certain externally recognised success factors, those factors can be a component. But in truth, peak performance is a level of optimised functioning. To arrive at your most optimised level, you first need to establish competence and be good at what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\nTo sustain highly optimised functioning, we can\u0026rsquo;t constantly peak. Performance curves are like a sloping hill: they may rise gradually and then drop off sharply. At the top of the curve is peak performance. You build up to it, and just beyond peak performance is an extra stretch—the other edge of the hill before you slope down—which is your stretch zone.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t step back from peak performance and the stretch zone, and go back down the hill towards the recuperation zone, you can\u0026rsquo;t sustain peak performance. Beyond the stretch zone is overwhelm, where performance drops off rapidly and sharply. That means exhaustion, burnout, health issues, or some kind of physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual crisis because we can\u0026rsquo;t sustain ourselves at those peaks.\nSustaining ourselves in these peak moments is a dance: we go there and taste it, but sometimes we have to go back down the hill. In the context of purpose, we have big moments where we\u0026rsquo;re on fire and everything is going our way. We\u0026rsquo;re winning deals, the business is growing, and we\u0026rsquo;re working long hours, but it\u0026rsquo;s a pleasure. We might work weekends because we\u0026rsquo;re engaged in a creative process and loving it.\nAfter something peaks in us—in the activity, the event, or the delivery—we have to step back. That\u0026rsquo;s still our purpose. Our purpose can still be in the recuperation zone, where it doesn\u0026rsquo;t seem as \u0026ldquo;on\u0026rdquo; because we\u0026rsquo;re getting ready to re-enter. It will be a different set of circumstances, people, and challenges, but it will still reignite that fire. If we don\u0026rsquo;t recuperate, we can lose our ability to engage with our purpose.\nHow can we avoid burnout? # James: You talked about climbing the hill and getting close to falling off when you reach the top. How do you know when you\u0026rsquo;re getting to that point? You\u0026rsquo;re at the top, in the zone, and things are going well, but you\u0026rsquo;re also close to working too hard and crashing. How can we avoid falling off the back of the hill so that we can come back up and sustain that performance for longer?\nLidia: Self-awareness is a huge differentiator among people who can sustain themselves. We\u0026rsquo;ve been conditioned to view success through what I think is quite a narrow lens: we look only at outcomes. But if we reconsider the markers and criteria for success, we can broaden the base while keeping the outcome as the objective: \u0026ldquo;I want to get this promotion. I want to deliver this project. I want to win this deal. I want to break into this market.\u0026rdquo;\nAlongside the outcome, set other intentions: \u0026ldquo;I want to be able to do it and maintain my fitness. I want to do it and still have good relationships with the people closest to me. I want to do it and maintain my mental health by giving myself opportunities to have some mindless moments.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen you\u0026rsquo;re engaged, you\u0026rsquo;re so on that the mind gets heavily utilised. Sometimes even sleep isn\u0026rsquo;t enough, or you may be behind on sleep. We need to set goals alongside the outcome goal, then think creatively about how to solve for all of them. If I\u0026rsquo;m going to work especially hard on this, I need to give myself time that week—20 minutes for meditation, for example—and I must do that.\nWhen you listen to high-performing people talk, there is a real discipline to performing and recuperating. Certain researchers have coined the term \u0026ldquo;corporate athletes\u0026rdquo; for executives. The difference between professional sporting athletes and corporate athletes is that corporate athletes don\u0026rsquo;t have an off-season. They don\u0026rsquo;t have a team of masseurs ready to help them condition for recovery, but they need it just as much.\nYou have to structure recovery into your performance plan. Youth forgives a lot of ills: when you\u0026rsquo;re young, you can party hard, go all night, get up, and do it again the next day. But even though that\u0026rsquo;s doable, you don\u0026rsquo;t know how much better your performance could be with rest, recovery, good food, and all the things we do to support athletes. We should also do those things to support ourselves.\nWe need to think about ourselves in that way: when am I on? When do I need to be really on? How do I prepare for that performance? I need to take care of my health, sleep, and water. The playing field is the only difference between an athlete and a corporate athlete. The physiological expression of pressure, and dealing physiologically with the performance demands of your environment, is the same.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great analogy. Compared with traditional athletes, there tends to be less focus for corporate athletes on recovery, ensuring that their mental health is okay, and working on their physical health. It\u0026rsquo;s important as you go through your career to pay attention to these things so that you don\u0026rsquo;t burn out or ruin friendships and can keep those parts of your life in a good place.\nCommon threads when working with High Performers # James: When you sit down to coach high-performing people, what are some common problems they have? What tools do you use to extract even higher performance from them?\nLidia: How do you get even more performance out of a high performer? It comes back to how we define high performance. If we\u0026rsquo;re defining it only by outcomes, there are ways to push yourself harder. In an executive context, you can turn down the volume on everything else in your life and focus on that outcome. You might get high performance, but the questions are how sustainable it is and at what price.\nWhen I work with clients, I\u0026rsquo;m there to facilitate, not dictate. It comes down to what they want to achieve. I might challenge and question them. At the executive level, people often aren\u0026rsquo;t surrounded by others who tell them, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s a bad idea.\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;re usually surrounded by people who say, \u0026ldquo;Yes, I think that\u0026rsquo;s fantastic.\u0026rdquo; Part of being an executive coach at those high levels is providing a safe place to be challenged and helping an executive open up to perspectives they might not otherwise get in their standard day-to-day role.\nGetting more performance always comes down to the significant role of self-awareness. I use sporting analogies because they\u0026rsquo;re easy for us to relate to, as opposed to what an executive might face in their day-to-day work. Think about professional golfers who have to step up to the green and take a shot in that moment. They\u0026rsquo;ve been preparing for this moment for years. The difference between a great shot and a poor shot isn\u0026rsquo;t so much their skill—they\u0026rsquo;re highly skilled at this point—the difference is their inner game.\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s your self-talk? Is it positive or negative? Are you telling yourself, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, I\u0026rsquo;m going to throw this. I\u0026rsquo;m going to flunk it. I\u0026rsquo;m not feeling good,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really pissed off with somebody in my life,\u0026rdquo; and allowing that to have traction inside you in this moment? What\u0026rsquo;s going on internally differentiates performance in that moment, and the same applies to executives.\nAt that level, it\u0026rsquo;s no longer about having mastered your field, the skills of your industry, or its politics. It\u0026rsquo;s about your self-talk and your ability to dial down distractions so that, in the moment when you have to focus, you focus only on the task.\nWhen it comes to high performance, the subtle shifts occur between good and great performance. The difference is that great performers can forget themselves within the picture of performance. They\u0026rsquo;re no longer self-focused; the self has disappeared from the frame. The only thing they\u0026rsquo;re thinking about is the task.\nWhen you reach superior performance, the goals you set are no longer outcome goals such as, \u0026ldquo;I want to hit that shot and make it in one.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s about the process. The process goal becomes, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to approach that shot in a calm and relaxed state. I\u0026rsquo;m going to take a moment consciously to ensure that I get into a relaxed state.\u0026rdquo;\nYou work on whatever cues you need to trigger that relaxation response. Some people have words, some have images, and some channel feelings to get their physiology into a more relaxed state instantly. \u0026ldquo;When I approach that shot, I\u0026rsquo;m going to drop my shoulders. I\u0026rsquo;m going to clear my mind. I\u0026rsquo;m going to take a breath. I\u0026rsquo;m going to filter out every bit of background noise.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s how you draw truly extraordinary performance from someone who is already very high-performing.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard similar ideas before: don\u0026rsquo;t focus on the outcome; focus on doing it the best way you can and having the right process, then the outcome will take care of itself.\nHow does Lidia achieve high performance? # James: How do you do that in your own life? Do you have any processes or rituals to extract high performance from yourself?\nLidia: Personally, I\u0026rsquo;ve been on a long journey of deliberate, conscious cultivation of self-awareness. When we\u0026rsquo;re trying to do anything—whether being in conversation with somebody else or doing something challenging or difficult—our default state can be frustration or annoyance. Thoughts and feelings emerge that are counterproductive to what we want to do or to allowing the best part of ourselves to be expressed.\nThe journey of self-awareness is like building a muscle. You notice what\u0026rsquo;s shifting and changing: \u0026ldquo;I feel that frustration rising. I feel I\u0026rsquo;m getting defensive in this conversation.\u0026rdquo; The skill is almost becoming an external observer of yourself, as though you\u0026rsquo;re beside yourself.\nAs you notice those things, you develop tools and skills that help you stay in a neutral space of curiosity: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m getting frustrated in this conversation or experience. I wonder what that\u0026rsquo;s about.\u0026rdquo; You remain more open to information and cues in your relationships and working life. It also helps you realise, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve taken on this work, and I should have known that these things about it don\u0026rsquo;t sit well with me.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a hyper-awareness in which you become far more attuned to noticing your ego and keeping it from controlling your reactions and defensiveness. You can gather more information, make more conscious choices, and remain aligned: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to say no to this. It\u0026rsquo;s okay to say no,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;This person is telling me something important. I need to be open and listen because I can learn something.\u0026rdquo;\nYou don\u0026rsquo;t approach life with the attitude, \u0026ldquo;I need to be right, and I need to know.\u0026rdquo; You approach it as, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know everything, and that\u0026rsquo;s okay.\u0026rdquo; It doesn\u0026rsquo;t say that I\u0026rsquo;m inferior or lesser; those are judgements of the ego. If I can stay open and curious, I can gather more information to keep shoring up a foundation of feeling confident and good about myself, aligning with my values, and using my strengths.\nSelf-awareness as a journey and a tool is the bedrock of how you operate in your personal life. It\u0026rsquo;s the bedrock of great leadership and of creating high-performing teams. It\u0026rsquo;s the bedrock of that process.\nHow to grow self awareness # James: Do you think you\u0026rsquo;ve always been self-aware, or is it something you\u0026rsquo;ve improved over time? If so, how did you do that? Did you meditate or journal, or did it come with experience as you realised why certain situations made you feel a particular way?\nLidia: I\u0026rsquo;ve meditated on and off throughout my life. There are times when it falls away, which goes back to my comment about things being there for a time and a purpose, then naturally moving away before you return to them.\nI think everyone has the opportunity to increase their self-awareness. For me, the leaps in self-awareness came when I decided to study psychology. Before that, they always came through a crisis, setback, challenge, or disappointment. Rather than glossing over those experiences, staying angry, or avoiding thinking about them, I would dive into them and look around. I\u0026rsquo;ve always believed that every dark cloud has a silver lining, so I\u0026rsquo;d look for it.\nIf you look, it is there. There is always some learning, often about yourself, that you can incorporate. If you take it with you, you start to build up your interior knowledge about yourself: what you like, what you don\u0026rsquo;t want, what your values are, who you are, who you want to be, and what you want to avoid.\nJames: I recently heard an analogy about a tree requiring deeper roots so that it can grow higher. I resonate with the idea that going through challenges or setbacks allows you to polish the diamond through that pressure and then grow even further.\nDoes Lidia consider herself to be a high performer? # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve had an incredibly successful career. Do you consider yourself a high performer?\nLidia: My answer is that, when it comes to performance, you need to take yourself out of the picture in some way. I view myself and approach life through the lens of, \u0026ldquo;What is it that I want to do?\u0026rdquo; Once I\u0026rsquo;ve determined what direction I want to go in, what task I want to take on, or what new thing I want to move towards, I set mastery goals: I want to do this, and I want to get really good at it.\nRather than focusing on achieving a title, promotion, or outcome, I focus on mastery. In my banking and corporate career, my goals were about building really good relationships. That\u0026rsquo;s what mattered to me: doing things that helped and served my clients, ensuring I was a trusted partner for them, and acting with integrity. Those were the things I set up, and whatever came of that came of that.\nI set process goals, such as putting in the extra hour at the end of the day to review things, write a report, and consolidate my thinking. It would have been easy to head home, but I focused on those things rather than, \u0026ldquo;This is where I\u0026rsquo;m going, and this is what I\u0026rsquo;m aiming for.\u0026rdquo; I never aimed for a specific outcome. I aimed to do a really good job based on what mattered to me.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a very competitive field. A lot of people in the advisory world get caught up in the idea of owning a relationship, which I always found unattractive. You don\u0026rsquo;t own a relationship. You have a relationship, invest in it, and support it. If there\u0026rsquo;s something of value there, that will be recognised.\nI tried to take the ego out of it, and ego is fear. There\u0026rsquo;s a fear that, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got to make sure this person sitting at this firm, who is in a position of power, likes me.\u0026rdquo; When you\u0026rsquo;re coming from a place of ego, there\u0026rsquo;s a lot of fear behind making sure that person likes you.\nOf course, the finance industry has lots of party tricks involving restaurants, bars, and the big expense account you\u0026rsquo;re usually allowed to use to build relationships. I was always quite reluctant to work in that way. That\u0026rsquo;s not to say we didn\u0026rsquo;t take clients out for lunch or go out and have a great night, but all my clients knew that wasn\u0026rsquo;t how I wanted to build our relationship. Those things were by-products of already having mutual respect for one another.\nI always focused on being genuine. If I was building a relationship, I\u0026rsquo;d look for something in that person that I really liked, could respect, and related to, so that I dealt with them from a place of authenticity rather than, \u0026ldquo;You have a really important job, and I need to make you like me.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s similar to what you were saying about goals versus processes. Instead of going straight to the goal of being friends with someone, focus on being a nice person and doing things the right way. As a result, you\u0026rsquo;ll have a good relationship.\nWhat lessons did you take from IB? # James: Are there any lessons about relationship building or other things you learned from your time in investment banking that you use in your practice or general life?\nLidia: It was an outstanding time in my life, and it was right for me to be there. I loved it. What I learned about myself was that I like to work in a dynamic way, where the days are unscripted. When I turn up, I don\u0026rsquo;t know what the day will hold, but I get to respond to it and meet it. I find that way of working stimulating.\nI realised that I work best when I have a lot of autonomy rather than being told what to do. I always ended up pursuing roles where I excelled and that I loved, though I didn\u0026rsquo;t know this at the time. They were roles where I had a blank slate and, within the expected parameters, could decide how the role would play out.\nThe same thing plays out in my career now as an executive coach. When I sit down with a client, I don\u0026rsquo;t start a session in a scripted way. I have some vague ideas: we\u0026rsquo;ve been talking about these things, so it might be helpful to move in this direction. But that\u0026rsquo;s a loosely held plan because I have to be present in the moment for whatever is coming at me.\nThey may have had something completely unexpected unfold in their world, so I\u0026rsquo;m meeting them in that moment: \u0026ldquo;What is this? We need to look at it. What is happening for them, and what might be the best responses they can make?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s extremely dynamic.\nI learned that about myself in the world of investment banking and stockbroking. Even when I was a research analyst, I loved deep thinking, being an analyst, exploring, and building relationships. I genuinely love relationship building, so that carries into what I\u0026rsquo;m doing now. I enjoy building trusted relationships, and I\u0026rsquo;m genuinely curious about people.\nEven when I was working in banking, the deal and whatever was happening in the market at the time were interesting and gripping, but I enjoyed understanding why. That\u0026rsquo;s what got me interested in leadership. Whether among my fund-manager clients, the companies that were clients, or the firms we might have been conducting a transaction for, I was fascinated by the differentiating components of what made a good leader and why.\nI was always interested in how other people responded, particularly to a CEO or CFO doing the rounds and trying to sell an IPO, for instance. It was fascinating to see which people responded positively to those who displayed certain qualities and characteristics versus those who didn\u0026rsquo;t, because ultimately every investor is answering the question, \u0026ldquo;Can I back this guy?\u0026rdquo;\nThere are subtle things we do when sizing somebody up: are they reliable? Are they good at what they do? Can they deliver? Can they solve problems? In the context of large sums of money, can I place my faith in this person delivering the outcome?\nThose things still apply to what I do because I\u0026rsquo;m still looking at executives who have that gravitas and ability to deliver. It always comes down to self-awareness. The people who have their measure know themselves well and know what they can promise. There\u0026rsquo;s a real difference between someone who thinks, \u0026ldquo;I hope this sounds good,\u0026rdquo; but doesn\u0026rsquo;t have a rock-solid foundation inwardly, and someone who comes from a solid place of knowing what they can deliver, even within a fluid external environment.\nLidia\u0026rsquo;s advice for graduates # James: I\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question, which I ask every guest. If you were graduating from university again and starting in the workforce this year, what advice would you give yourself?\nLidia: You need to take the pressure off yourself to have an answer today about what you need to do or should do. Inevitably, you\u0026rsquo;ll probably start out doing something and find yourself, even 15 or 20 years down the track, doing something completely different. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to have it all figured out.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also important to understand your true nature. Some people say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just going to do what feels right and what I\u0026rsquo;m interested in,\u0026rdquo; which is a great place to start. Others are more strategic: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going over here because these are leading fields in terms of the economy, and they pay well.\u0026rdquo;\nWherever you\u0026rsquo;re led in your thinking process indicates what you value and what\u0026rsquo;s important to you, so you need to listen to that. As long as you\u0026rsquo;re not doing something solely because you think you\u0026rsquo;ll get a financial reward, follow what your inner voice tells you that you want to do. It will lead to something else, which leads to something else, which leads to something else, which leads to something else.\nThere is no wrong turn because you\u0026rsquo;re accumulating knowledge and experience. The wrong turn is doing something that holds no interest or appeal, doesn\u0026rsquo;t light you up, and doesn\u0026rsquo;t stimulate you in any way. That\u0026rsquo;s your wrong turn, and you need to think about doing something else.\nI took that wrong turn very early in my career. My first job out of university was at a law firm, and I thought I would pursue a career in law. Within three months, I was going home with a dead feeling. I knew, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t do this.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen I told friends and family that I was aborting that mission, they thought I was mad. They said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve just finished a law degree. You\u0026rsquo;ve got a great job with a great firm. You can\u0026rsquo;t do that.\u0026rdquo; I said, \u0026ldquo;No, I definitely am doing that. This isn\u0026rsquo;t the right direction for me.\u0026rdquo;\nI went home and asked myself whether I wanted the partner\u0026rsquo;s job—not in a Machiavellian sense, but in an aspirational context. If I didn\u0026rsquo;t want the partner\u0026rsquo;s job, I had nothing to aim for there. The process steps didn\u0026rsquo;t make sense to me, so I needed to find something else.\nThe differentiators for me were the dynamism, every day being different, and an unscripted way of working. They didn\u0026rsquo;t exist in that role, but they existed in what I went on to do. Did it have to be stockbroking? No. It could have been anything that allowed me to have that unscripted, more dynamic way of working.\nJames: A theme throughout this podcast has been listening to your gut and having self-awareness about the things you\u0026rsquo;re interested in and the paths you want to take. As you said, there isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily one path to those feelings and that end result; there are many ways to reach that feeling of wholeness and satisfaction.\nOutro # James: I think we\u0026rsquo;ll end the podcast there today. Thank you so much, Lidia. That has been a fascinating conversation with so much value for the listeners.\nLidia: Thanks so much, James.\n← Back to episode 7\n","date":"6 December 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/7-on-purpose-and-high-performance-with-former-md-goldman-sachs-lidia-ranieri/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 7\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Purpose and High Performance with Former MD Goldman Sachs, Lidia Ranieri","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Listen # Apple Podcasts\nSpotify\nOvercast\n\u0026ldquo;Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.\u0026rdquo; Soren Kierkegaard\nIshan Galapathy is a renowned Operational Excellence expert in the food industry. Ishan has worked with global ‘big boys’ such as Campbell Arnott’s and Kellogg’s for over a decade, harnessing hidden opportunities and making the most of their existing people and processes. He now shares his expertise and insights with businesses wanting to grow and become dominant players in this sector.\nThe conversation brings Ishan\u0026rsquo;s work in process improvement down to a personal scale. His approach is deliberately simple: identify the habits that matter, make them easy to repeat and use a visible prompt to keep the commitment alive.\nEpisode takeaways # Productivity systems should reduce friction rather than become another task to manage. Tiny habits compound, but they need a reliable prompt and a simple way to track progress. Careers often begin through serendipity and gain meaning as we look back and connect our experiences. Ambition works best alongside an honest understanding of what is—and is not—within our control. Watch This Episode on YouTube\nFollow Ishan # https://ishangalapathy.com/advance/\nFollow Graduate Theory # https://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/linkedin\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram\n","date":"30 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/6-on-personal-productivity-and-growth-with-founding-director-capability-unlimited-ishan-galapathy/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Listen # Apple Podcasts\n","title":"On Personal Productivity and Growth with Founding Director - Capability Unlimited, Ishan Galapathy","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 6\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is from Sri Lanka and moved to Australia to complete university. He graduated from the University of New South Wales in 1998 with a Bachelor of Mechatronic Engineering, then worked as a process engineer for about seven years. During that time, he also completed an MBA at Sydney\u0026rsquo;s Graduate School of Management.\nIn 2004, seven years after graduating, today\u0026rsquo;s guest moved to Arnott\u0026rsquo;s, the manufacturer of Shapes, Tim Tams and my personal favourite, the Monte Carlo. He began as a production manager, moved into continuous improvement two years later, then became a manufacturing manager two years after that. In that role, he managed 115 employees and oversaw two biscuit-production lines from raw materials to finished goods.\nHis next major role was at Kellogg\u0026rsquo;s, which you might know for cereals such as Crunchy Nut and Special K, or foods such as LCMs and Pop-Tarts. He was the continuous-improvement manager for the Asia-Pacific region, responsible for supporting the three biggest sites in the region: Australia, South Africa and India.\nSince 2015, he has been the founding director of Capability Unlimited, where he works with manufacturing businesses to help them move from chaos to excellence. His latest work is his second book, Advance, which provides a practical 12-step framework for implementing strategy easily, improving productivity meaningfully and engaging employees effectively. Please welcome Ishan Galapathy.\nIshan: James, lovely to be here. I can truly tell your guests that you did all that work by yourself. Most people ask participants for some information to make the introduction easy, but I\u0026rsquo;m really impressed, mate. The level of detail and accuracy you\u0026rsquo;ve gone into is outstanding. Well done.\nJames: It was very interesting to research you, so it was definitely not a burden. I learnt about organisational productivity, improving processes and making supply-chain processes more efficient. But I want to start with a question that ties in with your personal productivity: are there any principles from the world of process improvement that you have applied to your own practice?\nIshan: Oh dear. You\u0026rsquo;ve jumped into the most difficult one first. You and your listeners might become familiar, in the coming days, months and years, with something called the irony of expertise: the plumber\u0026rsquo;s taps are leaking, the electrician\u0026rsquo;s lights aren\u0026rsquo;t working and the cobbler\u0026rsquo;s son\u0026rsquo;s shoes aren\u0026rsquo;t perfect.\nFrom corporate productivity to personal productivity, luckily I do take a little of my own medicine. One principle I use is tracking the most important things: habits. From a corporate perspective, a habit becomes a process; in our day-to-day personal lives, they\u0026rsquo;re habits. Tracking them is useful and easy.\nI recently read Tiny Habits by Professor BJ Fogg, founder of Stanford\u0026rsquo;s Behavior Design Lab. He developed a theory that we\u0026rsquo;ve used in manufacturing in a different context: do the little things that matter, because they all stack up. One of his students, James Clear, also wrote a fabulous book, Atomic Habits, about how tiny habits can make massive differences.\nHow do I track my daily habits as a way of improving productivity, or at least staying productive? Let me grab this off the wall. James, can you explain what you\u0026rsquo;re seeing? Obviously the listeners won\u0026rsquo;t be able to see it, but let\u0026rsquo;s see how well you can explain it.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m seeing a big table where each row has its own habit. I think there might be days of the week across the top. At the intersection of each row and column, you\u0026rsquo;ve got a green dot when the habit has been done and a red one when it hasn\u0026rsquo;t. Is that right?\nIshan: Another principle that runs through my work with clients is simplification. I tend to do everything in the simplest way because we\u0026rsquo;re all time-poor. We don\u0026rsquo;t need another app or portal to log into.\nAs you said, this is a monthly grid where I\u0026rsquo;ve listed some habits I want to maintain, with different categories. There is mind, body and soul: do I meditate daily? Do I exercise daily? Do I do a little daily reading to continue my education? From a business perspective, what do I need to do to make sure I\u0026rsquo;m staying on top of things?\nThere are also two categories at the bottom. The second-last one is family, and the last one is gratitude. It\u0026rsquo;s about trying to stay on track, daily and weekly, and being grateful for something or someone. Practising gratitude is something I\u0026rsquo;ve been doing consciously for the last five years.\nTo answer your question, I maintain this grid. There are about a dozen little activities that I monitor daily, each with a red or green dot. A red dot means I make a conscious note and try to get on top of it the next day. That\u0026rsquo;s all it is, and that\u0026rsquo;s the one thing I\u0026rsquo;ve taken from corporate life into my own.\nJames: I liked what you said about simplifying the process, because there are heaps of apps for tracking your habits and doing things better. Whatever it is, there\u0026rsquo;s an app for it somewhere. I\u0026rsquo;m all for building habits, but it can become taxing to go into all the apps and tick them off. Remembering to tick off the habit is almost a separate task, which takes away from actually doing it.\nIshan: You\u0026rsquo;ve hit the key point. I\u0026rsquo;m a Gen Xer, which means I\u0026rsquo;m one of those real pen-and-paper guys. You\u0026rsquo;re probably younger than a millennial, James. Younger people might not be into pen and paper; they use the phone almost as an extension of their fingertips and probably feel comfortable using technology and apps.\nBut the point is that it\u0026rsquo;s not about the piece of paper or the app. That\u0026rsquo;s simply a preference. What is going to prompt you to track the habit? That\u0026rsquo;s the key, because I can have a piece of paper and you can have an app, but what\u0026rsquo;s going to be the prompt? It\u0026rsquo;s a habit that will snowball into the other habits.\nAs I say, committing is easy, but committing to the commitment is hard. How do you build a practice that keeps you on top of it? For me, it\u0026rsquo;s easy to have this piece of paper next to my desk, where I can see it. The first thing I do when I wake up is go through my morning ritual: a bit of exercise, a bit of meditation, then some journalling and a focus on what I need to work on that day.\nAs soon as I finish, the next thing I do is add the red or green dot for the previous day. That is the ritual. Creating it makes it easy to track those habits and be the person you want to be. It\u0026rsquo;s not about the app or the piece of paper; it\u0026rsquo;s about the trigger that reminds you to complete the habits.\nJames: I agree that it\u0026rsquo;s important for each person to work out what will remind them to do the thing. You want it to be as frictionless as possible. I liked what you said about having the grid next to your desk, where you see it at the same time every day. If you want to ride your bike, you should keep it somewhere easy to access, not in a shed around the corner that\u0026rsquo;s secured by three different locks and requires two keys. Which arrangement is going to make you ride the bike?\nIshan: Exactly. It\u0026rsquo;s about reducing the friction involved in getting things done. BJ Fogg talks about removing that friction in Tiny Habits. As you said, if you want to ride a bicycle, make it easy to access. Make sure you can find your shoes and socks, and keep them by the door. These little things remove friction when you want to get started in the morning.\nOnce you start, it creates a positive snowball effect. You\u0026rsquo;re happy that you\u0026rsquo;ve completed the key thing you wanted to do, and you get a release of dopamine, oxytocin and all those wonderful chemicals in your brain. You start by feeling good and happy because you\u0026rsquo;ve ticked off the first thing. With that mindset, you focus on your next activity.\nYou begin the day in a positive cycle rather than turning on your phone to find out what\u0026rsquo;s gone wrong in the world, who needs you or which fires you need to put out. That\u0026rsquo;s a bad way to start the day because everything going into your head is negative. I hate being in that place, so I don\u0026rsquo;t do it. I don\u0026rsquo;t turn on my computer, email or phone until a good hour and a half or two hours after I wake up.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard people say that you definitely shouldn\u0026rsquo;t look at social media in the first hour of your day because it almost primes your brain for the rest of the day.\nIshan: It\u0026rsquo;s something I\u0026rsquo;m very interested in right now, but it\u0026rsquo;s a little premature to discuss because it\u0026rsquo;s a half-baked idea for my next book. The part I can share is that a lot of work has been done on brain patterns. There are different brainwave states, or states of brain function, that we go through each day.\nWe move from a deep-sleep state to the peak state we\u0026rsquo;re in now, where we\u0026rsquo;re fully conscious and near the peak of our brain function. As the day progresses, it slows down. Between that slowing-down phase and deep sleep is a state in which you\u0026rsquo;re not asleep, but you\u0026rsquo;re not fully awake. We pass through it both when going to sleep and when waking up. It has good and bad aspects. The good aspect is that it\u0026rsquo;s a useful semi-conscious state.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re interested in positive thinking and reprogramming your subconscious mind, many people would say that\u0026rsquo;s the state in which you want to do that work. The negative aspect is that the reprogramming also works if you start reading and reacting to all the bad things in your newsfeeds. If you wake up thinking, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to be a terrible day. I don\u0026rsquo;t know how to face the world,\u0026rdquo; that gets reinforced.\nHow many times do people start the day badly and spend the rest of it cursing each new thing that goes wrong, feeling bad without knowing why? I think it\u0026rsquo;s because of long-term reprogramming of the subconscious mind in that semi-conscious stage while going to sleep and waking up, when people read all that negative stuff.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s as much as I want to share, because it isn\u0026rsquo;t established. It\u0026rsquo;s an area that interests me right now and will affect what I\u0026rsquo;m researching for my next book: how do people work really productively? I think there\u0026rsquo;s a state of the brain that helps us get that 110% surge in productivity. I want to understand whether we can put ourselves into an almost meditative state for a short time to produce our best work. But more on that, perhaps, next year.\nJames: Optimising your performance, extracting the best from yourself, improving productivity and making sure you do the things you want to do are all interesting. At the end of the day, it\u0026rsquo;s about doing more of the things you want to do than the things you shouldn\u0026rsquo;t.\nI want to change the topic from productivity to your career. You\u0026rsquo;ve had an amazing one, starting as an engineer and becoming someone who led an entire region in many respects. You\u0026rsquo;re now an author and speaker. Did you always have your current destination in mind, or has your career been an iterative process of jumping to the next best thing and ending up where you are?\nIshan: I think there\u0026rsquo;s a bit of both. Coming out of university, there are serendipitous moments when you fall into a workplace, and for many people that shapes their career path. It isn\u0026rsquo;t true for everyone, but it\u0026rsquo;s common. It happened to my dad: he entered the world of HR, while I fell into process improvement quite by accident.\nI read a small advert on the university noticeboard asking for a student to work at a company. I wanted work experience, so I applied. That became the start of my process-improvement career: what began as a three-month casual student job became a full-time role the following year.\nThat was quite by accident. During my time at Arnott\u0026rsquo;s and Kellogg\u0026rsquo;s, however, I tried to pave my career towards something I wanted to achieve. We all dream of a career ladder, seek advice from senior leaders, undertake projects and leadership-development programs, and do everything we can to explore the world and learn how organisations work. We then try to take our careers somewhere we want them to go.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a common story: you fall into something and then try to make something of it.\nJames: I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you\u0026rsquo;re familiar with Cal Newport. He\u0026rsquo;s probably best known for Deep Work, but before that he wrote So Good They Can\u0026rsquo;t Ignore You. It\u0026rsquo;s about the idea that your passions might not come first; they might come second. You don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily do something because you\u0026rsquo;re passionate about it. You get good at it, then become passionate about it.\nYour story is similar to others I\u0026rsquo;ve heard. People get thrown into a new area in their first job out of university—perhaps something they\u0026rsquo;d never even heard of while studying. Becoming a continuous-improvement engineer probably wasn\u0026rsquo;t something you were passionate about at university or had even considered. As you progress and become good at what you do, the passion starts to develop because it\u0026rsquo;s something you\u0026rsquo;re good at and can tell people about. Is that something you\u0026rsquo;ve seen elsewhere?\nIshan: When you hit your fourth decade in life—your forties, and you\u0026rsquo;ve got a few years to go, James—your personal perspective changes. Many people start asking, \u0026ldquo;Why am I here?\u0026rdquo; Not, \u0026ldquo;Why am I here in this organisation?\u0026rdquo; but, \u0026ldquo;What is my purpose on this planet?\u0026rdquo;\nI don\u0026rsquo;t mean that you wake up with that question on your 40th birthday. It\u0026rsquo;s common for people to start wondering during the decade from 40 to 50 how they can help humankind or the planet, and what purpose they can serve.\nAt that point, we look back at the lived and learned experiences we\u0026rsquo;ve had throughout our careers and lives, and try to make meaning from them. In my case, I look through the lens of productivity. For somebody else, it could be sales if that\u0026rsquo;s what they\u0026rsquo;ve done. We try to figure out what it all means and connect a few dots in our lives.\nSuddenly, you\u0026rsquo;re making meaning from those experiences and an obsession grows out of them. Perhaps it isn\u0026rsquo;t about manufacturing productivity. Maybe it\u0026rsquo;s about helping individuals become more productive beings, and that\u0026rsquo;s why I was put on this planet. I just had to work my way through manufacturing productivity because manufacturing is one of the hardest areas and a sector that works quite diligently on productivity.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re happy to believe the narrative that you were put on Earth to serve a purpose, it\u0026rsquo;s useful to look back and ask how you can use your experience. Becoming fired up about that and trying to serve the world is a peaceful and wonderful way of living, making a difference and making a living.\nJames: I heard you say on a podcast, when I was researching you, that life can be understood by looking backwards, but you\u0026rsquo;ve got to live it forwards.\nIshan: That\u0026rsquo;s not my statement; I read it in a book. It\u0026rsquo;s quite profound, isn\u0026rsquo;t it? Life makes sense backwards, but you\u0026rsquo;ve got to live it forwards.\nJames: Creating that meaning and purpose as your life goes on is very interesting. In your career, you might be considered a high performer. You\u0026rsquo;ve become someone in charge of so much. Do you consider yourself a high performer?\nIshan: We can be our own hardest critics. I see many areas in which I want to improve. There are times when I\u0026rsquo;ve caught myself ten YouTube videos later wondering, \u0026ldquo;How did I end up here?\u0026rdquo; Then comes the self-reflective thought: \u0026ldquo;Ishan, you should know better.\u0026rdquo; There are also days when I think, \u0026ldquo;Jeez, what did I achieve today?\u0026rdquo;\nIn my view, it isn\u0026rsquo;t about saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve arrived; I\u0026rsquo;ve achieved it.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s about being conscious of what you want to do and how to do it most effectively. For example, I want to make sure that what my wife and I do as a family results in the most productive weekend, so I pre-plan it. What are we doing on Saturday morning? What are we having for Saturday lunch? Are we taking it easy on Saturday afternoon, or are we doing some things? I like to put the weekend into major buckets.\nMy wife is more likely to say, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;ll just wake up on Saturday morning and see how it goes.\u0026rdquo; Then we wake up and realise we need to go shopping because of what we\u0026rsquo;re doing for lunch. She takes life as it is. If I want free time, I almost have to put \u0026ldquo;free time\u0026rdquo; in the calendar. Then I say, \u0026ldquo;Okay, now it\u0026rsquo;s my free time,\u0026rdquo; and relax.\nI plan because I want to make sure we get the best from the time we\u0026rsquo;ve been given. I think time is the greatest limiting factor. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to stress about it, but I don\u0026rsquo;t want to waste it either. Of course, I spend a lot of time with my boys. I love cooking with them and going for walks with them, but I want to do those things in a planned way that makes the most productive and best use of my time.\nI might walk with the boys after lunch, when I\u0026rsquo;m feeling slightly lethargic, and make sure I read or do something more productive in the morning, when I\u0026rsquo;m firing on all cylinders. It\u0026rsquo;s about planning and getting more done. If that\u0026rsquo;s a way of saying I\u0026rsquo;m achieving a lot, good. But do I consider myself a high achiever? I don\u0026rsquo;t know. As I said, we tend to be our own hardest critics, so I won\u0026rsquo;t give myself that tick just yet.\nJames: I certainly think you are, so I\u0026rsquo;ll give you a big tick. When people pursue promotions and move up the career ladder, one approach is to decide exactly what they need to do to reach the next position, set goals and work very deliberately towards the next stage. Another might be to do the best they can and accept wherever they end up—a more laid-back approach that still involves doing good work. Which side are you on? Do you set a goal and smash what needs to be done, or are you more laid-back and take things one step at a time?\nIshan: I was definitely someone who set a goal, then tried to hit it and get the result. But you have to be at ease with the fact that the next career goal may not be totally within your sphere of control. You might have all the right credentials, experience, results and ways of working, but if the opportunity hasn\u0026rsquo;t arisen, you\u0026rsquo;re still in a holding pattern waiting for it.\nI communicated very clearly with my managers: \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;m planning to do with my career. Here\u0026rsquo;s where I want to head. What do I need to do to get there?\u0026rdquo; That applied both to the next role and over the longer term. I\u0026rsquo;ve been very fortunate to have managers who supported and guided me, and gave me opportunities to ensure I was ready to move into those roles when they became available.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s good to be ambitious, but not to the point where you become impatient. You have to hold on to the goal tightly with an open hand.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great analogy. It isn\u0026rsquo;t always within your control, so in one sense you should want it badly and do what you can to get where you want to go. At the same time, you need patience, an understanding that you aren\u0026rsquo;t the one deciding everything, and some humility.\nIshan: I\u0026rsquo;ve seen what happens when it works the other way. If you\u0026rsquo;re impatient and trying to get ahead of the other person, you\u0026rsquo;re always trying to elbow the person next to you. It creates a toxic culture, where people don\u0026rsquo;t get along because it\u0026rsquo;s everyone for themselves.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not how organisations become highly productive or great places to work. It\u0026rsquo;s good to be driven, but you have to balance your inspiration and desire to progress against the team culture and the possibility that other people are better suited to or more experienced for those roles.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s good to be driven, but you must also be mindful. Check your side-view mirrors and look sideways.\nJames: I also want to discuss continuing to learn throughout your career. You completed your MBA fairly early, only four or five years after graduating. I don\u0026rsquo;t know many people who have done one at that age. Was the extra study something you deliberately focused on at that time?\nIshan: I always knew I wanted to pursue postgraduate study. An MBA made sense because I was in a management role and knew that\u0026rsquo;s where I wanted to head. Although my undergraduate degree was in mechatronics and engineering, I really enjoyed the people side and working with others.\nThe MBA made sense at that point. We also knew we wanted to start a family fairly soon, so we were trying to get a few things done, plan our lives and support my career. The company I worked for supported and sponsored me. Major change-management programs were also under way in the organisation, and I went through related training programs.\nIt was helpful to undertake that training and the MBA at the time. The stars aligned: the company sponsored it, I wanted to complete it before starting a family, and I could apply what I learnt to programs already happening at work. I\u0026rsquo;m one of those people who welcomes opportunities with open arms and grabs them.\nJames: It was good to realise early that further study was something you wanted and to act on it. I\u0026rsquo;ve spoken to all the guests about following your gut and intuition when you can see yourself doing something in the future. Acting early set you up for later opportunities. Do you have any bad career advice that people should ignore?\nIshan: Obviously, don\u0026rsquo;t do anything illegal or abusive; that goes without saying. Beyond that, if something doesn\u0026rsquo;t feel right and you can\u0026rsquo;t be congruent with yourself—if a little inner voice says, \u0026ldquo;This isn\u0026rsquo;t for me\u0026rdquo;—listen to it.\nNo matter what others say, don\u0026rsquo;t second-guess your first instinct. Learn to trust and back yourself. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean shying away from a great opportunity because you feel unworthy or unable to do the job. But if something is fundamentally wrong—perhaps you don\u0026rsquo;t want to move overseas for a job because something tells you to wait and that something else might happen—respect that feeling.\nIf something isn\u0026rsquo;t right, don\u0026rsquo;t take it. But if an opportunity makes you wonder whether you have enough to meet the company\u0026rsquo;s expectations, or limiting beliefs tell you that you lack experience and expertise, learn to back yourself. That knot or those butterflies in your stomach mean you\u0026rsquo;re growing as an individual. Embrace the feeling and go through it. You\u0026rsquo;ll emerge from the experience as a different person; on the other side is growth. Learn to recognise, manage and deal with that feeling.\nI can give you two examples. The first was when I started the continuous-improvement role at Arnott\u0026rsquo;s, initiating and leading a program for the Sydney site. Our first improvement project was on the Tim Tam line, where I\u0026rsquo;d been a production manager. I knew the line, the people, the processes and the machines very well, so I was fairly comfortable when I had to lead a team to improve it. I forget the exact goal, but let\u0026rsquo;s say it was improving the throughput of Tim Tams.\nI felt comfortable leading the cross-functional team because I thought that, as the project leader, I had to have all the answers. If they asked me technical questions, I could answer a fair number of them, though not all. We went through the project and solved the problem.\nThe second project I had to lead was on the Salada line. I knew nothing about its people, machines or processes. Yeast-based biscuits are very different from sweet biscuits, and I almost had nightmares: how was I going to lead this project when I knew nothing about yeast-based biscuits?\nThen I heard the voice of Harry, the teacher who had taught me structured problem-solving: \u0026ldquo;Ishan, you need to trust the process.\u0026rdquo; I channelled my teacher and thought, \u0026ldquo;Harry said to trust the process, so I\u0026rsquo;ll trust the process.\u0026rdquo; I went through it and learnt much more about how to trust the process and lead a team to solve a problem than I had from the Tim Tam project. That was a moment of growth.\nMuch later, when I was close to leaving Kellogg\u0026rsquo;s and leading continuous improvement for the region, I was also involved in developing the global supply-chain excellence program. I was part of the global team that developed the framework—the blueprint for how Kellogg\u0026rsquo;s factories around the world operated and improved year on year.\nAs part of that work, I was given the opportunity to lead continuous improvement globally and lead the global continuous-improvement centre of excellence. I had to lead and facilitate meetings with very senior people bearing titles such as senior director, vice-president, global lead and regional lead. I had another moment of thinking, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just the Asia operational-excellence manager. How am I going to lead and facilitate this globally, and develop this part of the framework?\u0026rdquo;\nAgain, I had to learn that it wasn\u0026rsquo;t about me; it was about what I brought to the table. It was about trusting the process and the team, because they were the experts. My role was to lead and hold that space.\nWhether it was on-site with the Tim Tam team or on a global scale, the advice I want listeners to take away is to back yourself, trust your instinct and go through those moments of discomfort, because on the other side is growth.\nJames: I think I\u0026rsquo;ve heard that described as a catapult: you have to go through the downs to have the ups as well. In a similar vein, I have one question that I ask all the guests. Let\u0026rsquo;s say Ishan is back in 1998, finishing university and about to start his career. What advice would you give yourself?\nIshan: Funny you should ask that, James. I went to the University of New South Wales, as you said in the introduction, and I was living in Randwick. I distinctly remember the first day I arrived in Australia and in Randwick. On that Saturday afternoon in February 1994, I walked along Belmore Road—or perhaps Frederick Street, the main street in Randwick.\nI had all these questions going through my head, from simple things like, \u0026ldquo;How do I get to uni? Where\u0026rsquo;s my faculty? How do I find it?\u0026rdquo; all the way to, \u0026ldquo;What will my first job be? Who will I marry? Where will I live?\u0026rdquo;\nRecently, I had the pleasure of helping my niece, who is studying engineering at the same faculty, settle into her apartment. My wife and I helped her rent a flat, move in and set up. That evening, I had to grab something to eat. We all know the area like the backs of our hands, so I quickly rushed to Belmore Road to find a cafe.\nIn that moment, I could feel the Ishan who was on that road in 1994. It was as if I were watching a movie of myself in the third person, walking the road for the first time, looking into the windows and feeling all the questions I had then. I wanted to tell that Ishan, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to be okay. It\u0026rsquo;s going to be an enjoyable ride.\u0026rdquo; I saw myself telling the 20-year-old version of me that.\nAt the same time, I saw the 70-year-old Ishan coming to tell the forty-something-year-old Ishan, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ve got questions now too. Where to next? Will I be able to make the difference I want to? Is the world going to be okay? Will we travel again?\u0026rdquo; I heard the voice of the 70-year-old Ishan saying, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s going to be okay, and it\u0026rsquo;s going to be wonderful.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s very special, Ishan, and a fantastic story. I really appreciate you sharing it with us. You can tell, just from watching you, that it\u0026rsquo;s very close to your heart. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a fantastic note on which to send people out into their day. Thanks so much for your time and your advice today.\nIshan: You\u0026rsquo;re very welcome, mate. James, I loved it. If anyone is interested in reading about personal productivity, that book hasn\u0026rsquo;t been written yet. But if you\u0026rsquo;re interested in learning about organisational, corporate or team productivity, head to advancebook.com.au.\nYou\u0026rsquo;ll find a free PDF with a full introductory overview of my entire book. It explains my simplified version of how these mega-companies operate. It\u0026rsquo;s a simplified version of the supply-chain excellence framework I helped Kellogg\u0026rsquo;s develop: in my simple way of thinking, what does that framework look like? You\u0026rsquo;ll be able to read all of that and more, and pick up on the things that interest you. Again, that\u0026rsquo;s advancebook.com.au.\nJames: Thanks so much for your time today, Ishan. Everyone, please go and check out Ishan. He\u0026rsquo;s a fascinating guy. Again, thanks so much for your time today.\n← Back to episode 6\n","date":"30 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/6-on-personal-productivity-and-growth-with-founding-director-capability-unlimited-ishan-galapathy/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 6\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Personal Productivity and Growth with Founding Director - Capability Unlimited, Ishan Galapathy","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Oscar Trimboli is an author, host of the Apple award-winning podcast Deep Listening and a sought-after keynote speaker. He is passionate about using the gift of listening to bring positive change in homes, workplaces, and cultures around the world.\nOscar\u0026rsquo;s framework expands listening beyond simply hearing another person\u0026rsquo;s words. The conversation covers five levels—from listening to yourself and the content through to context, what is unsaid and the meaning beneath it—and shows how small changes can make conversations more useful.\nEpisode takeaways # Listening begins with noticing your own distractions and internal dialogue. Electronic notifications are a common barrier to being fully present in a conversation. Shorter, less biased questions give other people more room to explain what they mean. Strong listeners pay attention to context, patterns and what remains unsaid—not only the words they hear. Follow Oscar # Take Oscar\u0026rsquo;s listening quiz Oscar Trimboli\u0026rsquo;s website Follow Graduate Theory # https://www.graduatetheory.com/\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/linkedin\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram\n","date":"22 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/5-on-listening-with-author-and-speaker-oscar-trimboli/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Oscar Trimboli is an author, host of the Apple award-winning podcast Deep Listening and a sought-after keynote speaker. He is passionate about using the gift of listening to bring positive change in homes, workplaces, and cultures around the world.\n","title":"On Listening with Author and Speaker, Oscar Trimboli","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 5\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Good morning and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is a podcast host, author and keynote speaker with over 30 years of experience in operations, marketing, and sales. He now works with organisations across the world, teaching them how to be better listeners and bringing us impact beyond words.\nPlease welcome the deep listener himself, Oscar Trimboli. Oscar, welcome to the show.\nOscar: James, I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to listening to your questions. I\u0026rsquo;ll be curious to listen to the questions we can\u0026rsquo;t hear from the audience as well, because a lot of the time it\u0026rsquo;s what\u0026rsquo;s not said that makes the difference between good conversations and great conversations.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m so interested to dive into all of this with you.\nHow did Oscar find listening? # James: Listening is one of those skills that I previously had no idea you could even have. My first question, Oscar, is about this world of listening: how did you end up in it?\nAs we\u0026rsquo;ve said, most people have never heard of improving their listening. How did you end up in this world of listening?\nOscar: I think about it in three ways. The first is that when I was 13, I basically had a werewolf jaw—a very protruding jaw. Most people who get braces have them for one or two years; I had braces for five years.\nI never wanted to draw attention to myself. How do you avoid that when you\u0026rsquo;re talking to someone? You ask them questions, and the attention goes back to them. I wasn\u0026rsquo;t aware that I was listening well in those early days, but it was a defensive strategy for me.\nAt my high school, we had 13 different nationalities, with people from Asia and Eastern Europe. We used to play an Italian card game, but I couldn\u0026rsquo;t speak any other language. The Argentinians would form a team and speak Spanish, and the Polish teams would speak Polish. Occasionally, a team would be a player short. Because I didn\u0026rsquo;t speak any other language, I had to get very good at reading body language. I learnt to notice what happened to people\u0026rsquo;s eyes and eyebrows when they got a particular set of cards and figure it out.\nThe turning point came in a budget-setting meeting at Microsoft between Singapore, Seattle and Sydney. At the 20-minute mark, my vice president looked me straight in the eye in the Sydney boardroom and said, \u0026ldquo;Oscar, I need to see you immediately after this meeting.\u0026rdquo;\nI switched off, James. From that point on, all I could think about was how many weeks\u0026rsquo; salary I had left in my bank account. When Tracy said that, I thought I was getting fired. The meeting finished, Tracy asked me to close the door, and I was sitting at one end of a very long boardroom table.\nShe asked me to come and sit next to her. As I walked along this long boardroom table, she said, \u0026ldquo;You have no idea what you did at the 20-minute mark, do you?\u0026rdquo; The only thing going through my head was, \u0026ldquo;Great. I\u0026rsquo;m getting fired, and I have no idea what I did.\u0026rdquo;\nShe sat me down, looked me straight in the eye and said, \u0026ldquo;At the 20-minute mark, you changed the way the room listened to itself. If you could code the way you listen, you could change the world.\u0026rdquo; Despite Tracy saying something so profound, the only thing going through my head was, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not getting fired.\u0026rdquo; I didn\u0026rsquo;t think about what she had said. I literally zoned out because I was so relieved that I wasn\u0026rsquo;t fired.\nA week and a half later, the finance director, Brian, asked me to come to the budget-setting meeting for Australia and audit his listening. I said, \u0026ldquo;Brian, you\u0026rsquo;ve been talking to Tracy. I got a $32 million uplift in my budget, and I have to figure out how to deliver it. I haven\u0026rsquo;t got time for this little listening caper. Can I just go and figure it out?\u0026rdquo;\nHe said, \u0026ldquo;Let me make it simple for you. You are coming to the meeting, and you will audit my listening.\u0026rdquo;\nHere\u0026rsquo;s a tip: if you\u0026rsquo;re a graduate who isn\u0026rsquo;t good at maths, make friends with the finance department. If you come from the arts or another area, partnering with finance is one of the most influential things you can do in the workplace, because they are the people who pay salaries. More importantly, they\u0026rsquo;re the people who approve business cases.\nI had to sit down and watch Brian listen. He did an okay job, but I was curious: there were nine people in the meeting, and only three spoke. I thought, \u0026ldquo;He\u0026rsquo;s not listening to everybody.\u0026rdquo; He also asked very long questions.\nHere\u0026rsquo;s another tip for listeners: if you ask a question with more than eight words, it\u0026rsquo;s a biased question. In fact, it isn\u0026rsquo;t even a question; it\u0026rsquo;s a statement, despite the inflection in your voice at the end.\nSince then, I\u0026rsquo;ve been on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners in the world before I leave the planet. That\u0026rsquo;s how it all started.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great story. What you\u0026rsquo;re doing is special and exciting: you\u0026rsquo;re bringing light to a skill that we can all improve.\nHow distractions impact listening # James: When you\u0026rsquo;re sitting down with Brian—or with the people you coach today—what do you look for when helping someone improve their listening? What\u0026rsquo;s your process?\nOscar: There are five levels of listening. The first thing you want to do as a listener is not focus on the speaker. Listening starts by listening to yourself.\nYou might have a whole lot of noise in your head about the last meeting, the next meeting, what you need to eat for lunch or what you didn\u0026rsquo;t eat for breakfast: \u0026ldquo;I haven\u0026rsquo;t had enough coffee. Gee, Oscar talks slowly. I wish he\u0026rsquo;d hurry up and get to the point.\u0026rdquo; There\u0026rsquo;s a lot of noise going through your head.\nThe first of the five levels is listening to yourself. We\u0026rsquo;ve researched more than 1,410 people and tracked them for nearly four years. The number-one barrier to people\u0026rsquo;s listening is electronic notifications, whether they\u0026rsquo;re from a mobile phone, desktop computer or tablet. Whether you\u0026rsquo;re on a Mac or PC, or an iPhone or Android, you can push the button that says, \u0026ldquo;Stop notifications while I\u0026rsquo;m in a conversation,\u0026rdquo; meaning a meeting.\nThis is easy to say but very difficult to do, because many people are addicted to the red dots, the buzz, the bing, the Slack channel, the Teams message and the email notification. I\u0026rsquo;ve worked in the technology industry. I know that the research behind the app industry was derived from research into slot machines, or poker machines, in Las Vegas.\nThey hired psychologists to figure out how to keep people mindlessly pressing the button and putting more money into the poker machines. The app industry adapted that research by putting red dots on devices and making notifications blink to get your attention.\nThat fires dopamine into your system. It\u0026rsquo;s the drug that makes the whole world beautiful when you\u0026rsquo;re in love. A red dot fires off the same thing, and you think, \u0026ldquo;Somebody wants to talk to me.\u0026rdquo; But it means you\u0026rsquo;re unavailable for the conversation you\u0026rsquo;re in right now.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re a medical professional or an emergency responder, please don\u0026rsquo;t switch your notifications off; that\u0026rsquo;s your job. The same applies if you have patients to see or are at the end of a manufacturing line ensuring people\u0026rsquo;s safety. For everybody else working with computers, switch your notifications off. When I say that, many people feel like a drug addict whose drugs I\u0026rsquo;ve just taken away.\nDistractions and Notifications # Oscar: What\u0026rsquo;s your relationship with notifications?\nJames: Like most people, I find it tricky to switch my phone off and put it aside. Over the last few days, I\u0026rsquo;ve resorted to turning it off completely before I go to sleep, charging it in another room and then starting my work without it. I usually don\u0026rsquo;t turn it on until lunchtime, because that\u0026rsquo;s what I have to do to keep the phone away from me. As soon as it goes on and I\u0026rsquo;ve looked at it, I\u0026rsquo;m almost locked in. It\u0026rsquo;s difficult to look once and then put it away for a few hours.\nI agree about the phone and all notifications. Even when you\u0026rsquo;re on a work call, your email is there and the Teams chat is open. On some level, these are all like slot machines: someone sends an email and—bang—I feel I have to read it straight away or the world\u0026rsquo;s going to end. Having these things around can affect you when you\u0026rsquo;re in a meeting with someone.\nOscar: Here\u0026rsquo;s your challenge: go to the system settings on your computer and switch those notifications off as well. Do you find yourself more productive now that you\u0026rsquo;re not addicted to the phone and the reactive behaviour that comes from responding quickly to what\u0026rsquo;s on it? What has your experience been over the last week?\nJames: In the mornings, I find it easier to work and concentrate. Before I started doing this, I kept my phone next to my bed. I\u0026rsquo;d wake up with it right there, spend 20 minutes looking through Instagram, then go on YouTube, Facebook or any number of social media sites. If I started my day that way, I felt flat for the rest of the day.\nWhen someone asked me to do something that required effort or that I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to do—even a normal household job like taking the bins out—I struggled to find the motivation. I just wanted to look at my phone. If I started the morning like that, it carried through the entire day.\nIf I can delay it, that reduces the impact. I\u0026rsquo;m more able to interact with the world and enjoy regular activities without the constant dopamine from all those apps attacking my brain.\nOscar: Use the technology. Don\u0026rsquo;t let the technology use you.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. It\u0026rsquo;s easy for that technology to take control. You mentioned poker machines, and there\u0026rsquo;s also that Netflix show whose name I\u0026rsquo;ve forgotten. When I watched it, I was amazed that even the people who run these companies don\u0026rsquo;t let their children use the apps because they know the impact they can have—not only on dopamine but also on people\u0026rsquo;s opinions. A major theme of the show was how you can end up in echo chambers. These apps can affect your whole life to a large degree.\nWith listening in particular, it\u0026rsquo;s important to be conscious. We spoke before the episode about being conscious while listening to someone and as you go through your day. Not having those notifications around is important. Is being conscious something you focus on when people are listening?\nThe 5 Levels of Listening # James: We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about level one of the five levels of listening, which is listening to yourself. Can you talk us through the other levels?\nOscar: Let\u0026rsquo;s talk about all of them together, then split them apart. Level one is listening to yourself. Level two is listening to the content: what people say, what you sense and the emotion that comes through in their words. Level three is listening for the context.\nContext includes the backstory, patterns and the difference between listening to symptoms and listening to systems. Something you\u0026rsquo;re doing in your work right now is learning how to listen systemically across data. When you don\u0026rsquo;t listen to systems, you have royal commissions, whether in aged care, the treatment of children, or banking and financial services.\nLevel four is listening for what\u0026rsquo;s unsaid. To understand the neuroscience of listening, consider that I speak at 125 words per minute but can think at 900. That means the first thing someone says represents 5% of what they mean. If you can listen to the next 125 words and the 125 words after that, you can listen to what they haven\u0026rsquo;t said.\nFinally, level five is listening for what the person means, not just what they say. Many people struggle to express what they\u0026rsquo;re trying to say the first time because of that 125–900 rule.\nEach level is progressive. If you don\u0026rsquo;t have the foundation of listening to yourself, it\u0026rsquo;s difficult to access the higher levels. Based on our research, we know that only half of 1% of the working population can listen at level five.\nFor many of us, it\u0026rsquo;s about doing the basics well: switching off our phone or notifications, drinking a glass of water before every conversation and drinking a glass of water every half-hour. That sends a signal to the body that everything is okay. Breathing properly is also important at level one. Once you\u0026rsquo;ve mastered your breathing, take a few deep breaths before entering a conversation.\nIf you get distracted during a conversation, here are two basic tips. First, reset your attention by asking yourself, \u0026ldquo;What colour are the eyes of the person I\u0026rsquo;m speaking to?\u0026rdquo; With me, it\u0026rsquo;s difficult because one of my eyes is a different colour from the other, James, so you might notice a difference if you\u0026rsquo;re playing that game right now.\nSecond, if you\u0026rsquo;ve noticed the person\u0026rsquo;s eye colour but you\u0026rsquo;re still distracted, take a quick, deep breath in through your nose and out through your mouth. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to sound like an Olympic weightlifter; the person won\u0026rsquo;t even notice. Once you\u0026rsquo;ve mastered that, notice the speaker\u0026rsquo;s breathing as well. Are they taking short breaths or long breaths?\nThose are the practical tips for level one. We can go through each of the levels. Which one would you be most curious to learn about, James?\nJames: Talk to me about what\u0026rsquo;s unsaid. It\u0026rsquo;s easy to hear someone speak, listen to what they\u0026rsquo;ve said, then continue the conversation or take information from it.\nListening to what is unsaid # James: It\u0026rsquo;s important to listen to what they didn\u0026rsquo;t say. Perhaps important information was left out, maybe on purpose. What experiences have you had where listening for what\u0026rsquo;s unsaid has been useful?\nOscar: This story comes from a workshop I did in Melbourne in 2015. There were 12 leaders in a room, and it was about 20 minutes to one. I knew it was close to lunchtime because the CEO was tapping a finger on the table to get my attention, pointing to their watch and saying, \u0026ldquo;We are going to finish.\u0026rdquo;\nWe were doing a simple exercise: \u0026ldquo;What animal is this organisation?\u0026rdquo; Eleven of the 12 people had spoken. They said it was an eagle, an osprey, a seagull or a seahawk—all these fast-moving, fluid animals. One person hadn\u0026rsquo;t spoken: Eileen. She was at the end of the table and was probably a card-carrying member of the introvert club.\nI turned and gestured to her. I didn\u0026rsquo;t say anything, but I sensed that Eileen didn\u0026rsquo;t get to speak much in this group. As I turned to her, I could feel the laser beam of the CEO\u0026rsquo;s eyes. If it had been a cartoon, his eyes would have made my head explode, because he wanted to eat. That was all he was interested in.\nI stopped, paused, turned slowly towards her and said nothing. She said, \u0026ldquo;I thought we were a snake.\u0026rdquo;\nYou could feel the tension rising in the room. James, when I say \u0026ldquo;snake,\u0026rdquo; what goes through your mind? What are the characteristics of snakes?\nJames: My mind goes to venomous and sneaky. It\u0026rsquo;s not really a happy, fun animal.\nOscar: I paused and waited for Eileen to finish.\nWhat you don\u0026rsquo;t know about Eileen is that her family history and culture come primarily from China. In China, the relationship with the snake is very different; it\u0026rsquo;s actually a revered creature. She said, \u0026ldquo;I think we\u0026rsquo;re a snake because we\u0026rsquo;ve forgotten to shed our skin. We\u0026rsquo;re holding on to practices, we\u0026rsquo;re not listening to customers, and we\u0026rsquo;re not evolving in the way we have in the past.\u0026rdquo;\nThe tension in the room changed completely. A significant conversation followed about shedding the skin of bad business processes and processes that weren\u0026rsquo;t helpful for customers. It only came about because someone in the room took the time to listen to what wasn\u0026rsquo;t being said, which was Eileen talking about a snake.\nFor her, the snake is about adaptation and change. In the West, we have this mindset that snakes are bad. In Christian storytelling traditions, the snake is part of the origin story: the temptation in the Garden of Eden by a snake to eat the apple, after which humans have to work for the rest of their lives. Those traditions don\u0026rsquo;t have a great relationship with snakes.\nFor everyone listening, it\u0026rsquo;s a good example of the listening filters or biases you have. If you want to learn more about what gets in the way of your listening, you can go to listeningquiz.com, take a 20-question quiz and get a five-page report explaining your barriers.\nThe conversation did not finish until 20 past one, James. The food was in the room, but nobody was eating. In too many workplaces, the opinions that are ignored belong to people who don\u0026rsquo;t naturally want to speak up, because the host or meeting organiser doesn\u0026rsquo;t create enough space.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re in a one-on-one conversation, there are three simple things you can use to listen for what someone is trying to say or what they\u0026rsquo;re really thinking. The first phrase is, \u0026ldquo;Tell me more.\u0026rdquo; The next is, \u0026ldquo;And what else?\u0026rdquo; Please don\u0026rsquo;t use them immediately after each other, or the person will probably become annoyed. Some of my clients abbreviate \u0026ldquo;and what else\u0026rdquo; to AWE.\nWhen you use these phrases, the speaker will take a breath, pause and straighten their spine. They\u0026rsquo;ll say things like, \u0026ldquo;Actually, now that I think about it, I haven\u0026rsquo;t told you about this issue, this person, this department or this financial model,\u0026rdquo; whatever the case may be.\nThe first question is, \u0026ldquo;Tell me more.\u0026rdquo; The second is, \u0026ldquo;And what else?\u0026rdquo; The third is possibly the most powerful. Use it carefully, skilfully and with empathy; don\u0026rsquo;t use it to intimidate the other person. The third is silence.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t worry: my video didn\u0026rsquo;t freeze. \u0026ldquo;Silent\u0026rdquo; and \u0026ldquo;listen\u0026rdquo; have exactly the same letters. In the West, we have an awkward relationship with silence. We call it the deafening silence, the awkward silence or the pregnant pause. Many of us want to fill that space.\nIn our Indigenous communities, with our Māori cousins and Polynesian neighbours, silence is a sign of wisdom, respect and authority. It\u0026rsquo;s a sign of great elders and of building tribes that matter. In high-context cultures such as China, Japan and South Korea, the pause is also a sign of seniority in the room.\nAsk, \u0026ldquo;Tell me more\u0026rdquo; or \u0026ldquo;And what else?\u0026rdquo; and then pause. Silence is difficult for many people starting their careers because they feel they\u0026rsquo;re paid for the speed of their answers. I would say: take a little longer and think about the quality of your response when someone asks you a question, rather than trying to give the fastest response in the room.\nIntroverts are amazing synthesisers of group conversations. Check in regularly with an introvert and ask, \u0026ldquo;What themes are you noticing in the group, and what themes do you sense are absent?\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;ll expand what\u0026rsquo;s unsaid so that you don\u0026rsquo;t have to rework things because people didn\u0026rsquo;t fully understand what everyone initially asked for.\nI\u0026rsquo;m curious about what you\u0026rsquo;re thinking right now, James.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m reflecting on what you said about introverts in the room and the example of the woman who hadn\u0026rsquo;t said anything during the meeting. Sometimes, the people who don\u0026rsquo;t say much have their heads spinning because they\u0026rsquo;re thinking about everything that\u0026rsquo;s going on.\nAlthough they may not voice their opinions as loudly as other people, they often have very good insights. As we said about listening to what\u0026rsquo;s not said, we need to be aware of the room. People who aren\u0026rsquo;t speaking may have valid opinions that should be shared, but perhaps they don\u0026rsquo;t have the confidence or belief in themselves. Drawing out those opinions can be beneficial.\nOscar: Be careful with labels. Labels are good on food jars and pharmaceutical products, but they\u0026rsquo;re not good on people.\nIn a room of actuaries and accountants, I would be considered an extrovert. In a room full of actors, I would be considered an introvert. Labels are useful until they\u0026rsquo;re not, so focus on behaviour rather than saying, \u0026ldquo;That person is\u0026hellip;\u0026rdquo; Sometimes people behave more reflectively, and that\u0026rsquo;s okay.\nThe skilful thing is to encourage those people to participate and offer their opinions earlier in a conversation. People become frustrated with deep thinkers and introverts when they listen to the whole meeting, then drop a hand grenade five minutes before the end by saying, \u0026ldquo;You do realise you haven\u0026rsquo;t spent any time talking about our customers.\u0026rdquo;\nThe whole room thinks, \u0026ldquo;Why didn\u0026rsquo;t they say that earlier?\u0026rdquo;\nWe need to be conscious that listening is situational, relational and contextual. You\u0026rsquo;ll listen differently to a peer than to your manager, at home than at work, and to somebody you\u0026rsquo;ve known for a long time than to somebody you\u0026rsquo;ve just met.\nThere are two ways you can listen: you can give attention or pay attention. Neither is right or wrong. Some of you are giving attention to this conversation between James and me. Others are paying attention because you\u0026rsquo;re on a bike in a gym, on a treadmill, gardening or commuting. For you, it\u0026rsquo;s background audio.\nThose of you giving attention are sitting down and listening. You may be taking notes or overlaying the conversation with the context you\u0026rsquo;re working on. There are different ways we show up with our listening.\nYou can\u0026rsquo;t be a deep listener all the time. We all have listening batteries, James, no different from a phone. For some of us, they\u0026rsquo;re drained by lunchtime; for others, they\u0026rsquo;re drained by the time we finish work. A quick way to reset your listening batteries is to listen to a song or some music for two or three minutes. That will help your brain relax and catch up, leaving you able to listen to the next conversation.\nI\u0026rsquo;m curious, James: where do you think you struggle most in your listening?\nHabits of Great Listeners # James: My initial thoughts go to the distractions we discussed before, such as a phone or email. Smaller things distract me too: what\u0026rsquo;s for dinner tonight, what\u0026rsquo;s next on the agenda today, or what someone meant by something they said yesterday. These distractions aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily caused by something outside me; sometimes my focus simply wanders while someone is speaking. That can really affect my listening.\nOscar: The difference between a good listener and a great listener is not that great listeners never get distracted. People often ask me at the beginning of workshops or webinars, \u0026ldquo;How do I stop being distracted?\u0026rdquo; The good news—and the bad news—is that you\u0026rsquo;ll never stop being distracted.\nWe spoke earlier about the 125–900 rule, which is the difference between my speaking speed and my thinking speed. The 125–400 rule is the difference between my speaking speed and your listening speed. You can listen at 400 words per minute, so every conversation you have with a human is too slow for your listening speed. You will be distracted.\nThe difference between a good listener and a great listener is not that they get distracted; it\u0026rsquo;s that they notice their distraction more quickly and come back into the conversation.\nAs a bridging strategy, use a phrase that makes many of the people I work with a little uncomfortable. When they have the courage to use it, amazing things open up. James, have you ever been distracted when someone said something important and thought, \u0026ldquo;If I listen a little longer, the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle will fall into place\u0026rdquo;?\nJames: Yes.\nOscar: For everyone listening to the podcast, James is nodding his head furiously.\nRather than being out of integrity with the speaker, pause and say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really sorry. I got distracted. Do you mind saying that again?\u0026rdquo; That creates an amazing connection between the two of you. You\u0026rsquo;ve signalled that what they say matters while acknowledging that you\u0026rsquo;re human and became distracted. They\u0026rsquo;ll repeat themselves because it has happened to them too; speakers also drift off.\nYou can\u0026rsquo;t do it three times in a row—\u0026ldquo;Sorry, I got distracted. Could you say that again? Sorry, I got distracted again\u0026rdquo;—or they\u0026rsquo;ll think, \u0026ldquo;This person doesn\u0026rsquo;t care about what I\u0026rsquo;m saying.\u0026rdquo;\nI use the phrase surprisingly often. It relaxes people because they think, \u0026ldquo;He\u0026rsquo;s going to be honest with me in this conversation, so I can be more honest with him as well.\u0026rdquo; Say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m sorry. I was distracted by the red car that drove past, the coffee machine or whatever it was. Would you mind repeating that? I think it\u0026rsquo;s important.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve been in meetings where the person running it asks, \u0026ldquo;James, what do you think?\u0026rdquo; and I realise I missed what they were saying. It\u0026rsquo;s better to be honest and say, \u0026ldquo;I lost you there. Can you repeat the question?\u0026rdquo;\nThat builds trust. Otherwise, you try to answer when you don\u0026rsquo;t even know the question, make yourself look silly and completely miss what they asked. It\u0026rsquo;s much better to be genuine, reset and continue from there.\nOscar: It also gives the speaker permission to do the same when they\u0026rsquo;re listening to you.\nJames: We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about the five levels of listening and the different things involved when you\u0026rsquo;re coaching someone. If they\u0026rsquo;re a level-two listener who wants to improve, what do you work on to help them progress towards level five, where they\u0026rsquo;re listening for the meaning behind what\u0026rsquo;s being said?\nCoaching lessons for improving your listening # James: What are some key lessons you use to encourage people to improve their listening?\nOscar: Keep in mind that 86% of people are at level one or level two. Aspiring to level five is like a social runner who does parkruns wanting to run a marathon. Only half of 1% of the world\u0026rsquo;s population has ever run a marathon. That takes a high level of commitment. Having run six myself and suffered long-term injuries as a result, I understand the commitment involved.\nAt level two, one of the things I want people to become conscious of is whether they\u0026rsquo;re listening to reload their argument or listening to help the speaker make sense of what they\u0026rsquo;re thinking.\nMany of us think we need to understand everything the speaker is saying. One way we can be helpful at level two is to start noticing patterns in how the speaker explains a problem. All the research I\u0026rsquo;ve done is in the workplace, James, so the examples I\u0026rsquo;ll give are also from the workplace.\nA client told me about meeting a peer and saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m really struggling with my boss.\u0026rdquo; Before they could finish, the other person said, \u0026ldquo;You think you\u0026rsquo;ve got a bad boss? Let me tell you about the worst boss I ever had.\u0026rdquo; They spent the next 20 minutes talking at the first person about their own boss.\nWhat the first person wanted in that moment was for the listener to listen, not solve or compare. At level two, one of the first things we want to do is help the speaker make sense of the patterns they\u0026rsquo;re talking about.\nWhen you\u0026rsquo;re listening at level two, notice whether people talk mainly about the past, the present or the future. Do they speak about themselves, the team or others? Are they mainly internally or externally oriented? Do they speak in statistics or stories? Do they speak in detail or in big pictures?\nWe want you to notice how the other person speaks so you can start to match their style. Imagine I\u0026rsquo;m a very elaborate storyteller who loves drawing on a whiteboard. If you continue to talk to me using only sequential, rational details, there will be a mismatch in the way we\u0026rsquo;re speaking and listening to each other. You need to engage with my stories and explain how what you\u0026rsquo;re trying to say is relevant.\nMany of us don\u0026rsquo;t notice the adjectives, pronouns, nouns or verbs people use. \u0026ldquo;Picture this\u0026rdquo; is a phrase that sets up a story from someone who loves telling stories. Your job is not to cut the story off mid-sentence, but to let them finish. Someone who says, \u0026ldquo;It really sounds like we\u0026rsquo;ve got an issue here,\u0026rdquo; has an auditory preference and is usually interested in detail.\nWhen listening at level two, notice not only what people say but also how they express it. They will feel more comfortable because they can relax into their normal style.\nEarly in your career, you might think, \u0026ldquo;This is difficult enough. I\u0026rsquo;m trying to learn my profession and the organisation, and now you\u0026rsquo;re telling me to learn to listen to the way my manager speaks.\u0026rdquo; If you do, your likelihood of being promoted is much higher. They\u0026rsquo;re more likely to trust you with interesting and complex projects and give you projects with more senior visibility.\nI rebuilt the graduate program at Microsoft, by the way. I didn\u0026rsquo;t mention that to you, James. It was exported to 26 Microsoft subsidiaries around the world during my time there. I have a strong focus on next-generation leaders. What separated the people who moved from graduate positions to higher roles at Microsoft wasn\u0026rsquo;t their technical skill; it was their communication effectiveness.\nThis is a superpower you can build. You\u0026rsquo;ll accelerate your career if you\u0026rsquo;re perceived as a better listener.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s good to work on your speaking and writing, but people often haven\u0026rsquo;t considered improving their listening as part of their communication skill set. The tips you\u0026rsquo;ve given—paying attention to how someone speaks, not just what they say—are fundamental to developing that whole skill set.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s interesting that communication, rather than technical skill, drives your role in an organisation. I\u0026rsquo;ve found in my own workplace that knowing your technical role is good, but communication becomes important when you take the next step and lead a team.\nAttributes of Successful Graduates # James: When you designed that graduate program and watched people progress through the organisation, were there other common threads among those who progressed particularly well, compared with those whose communication skills weren\u0026rsquo;t as developed?\nOscar: I feel like the grandfather of these graduates because many have moved to China, the US, Western Europe, the UK, Singapore and South America. It\u0026rsquo;s amazing to see them. There are a couple of common threads among the people who took on more responsibility. I\u0026rsquo;m not saying that\u0026rsquo;s the definition of career success; it was their definition of career success.\nNumber one: learn the business, not just your department. They were very good at that. They volunteered for cross-organisational projects rather than projects solely within their departments, so they learnt much more about the customers.\nFor some, that meant negotiating with their manager for one hour a week to listen to customer calls in a contact centre. If you\u0026rsquo;re in a large organisation, that\u0026rsquo;s something you need to discuss with your manager, but it will give you a much broader perspective of the business.\nThe second thing that distinguished the graduates who moved on was that they understood the economics of their organisation and the outputs it was trying to create. Government departments are very output-driven: what is the policy, how does it connect to our citizens, and what budgets and policies support that? In commercial businesses, it\u0026rsquo;s about understanding revenues, costs and how those things come together. The graduates were relatively commercially astute.\nThe third thing was that they were courageous. They were happy to approach the most senior people in the organisation and ask, \u0026ldquo;What advice would you give me?\u0026rdquo; Many would book half-hour coffees with people anywhere in the world. LinkedIn is an amazing tool they used to connect with people who weren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily in their own organisation but had the skills they aspired to.\nSo, number one, network outside your department and understand what matters to the whole organisation. Number two, understand the commercial or output requirements of the organisation. Number three, be courageous and reach out to somebody. It\u0026rsquo;s rare that they\u0026rsquo;ll say no. They may say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not the best person to support you on that. Can I introduce you to someone who can?\u0026rdquo;\nJames, you\u0026rsquo;re a perfect example. You got a referral from our common friend, and here we are having a conversation about listening.\nJames: Referrals are great. I know that networking within an organisation is quite easy: I can look someone up and quickly send them a message. But it\u0026rsquo;s also possible to reach people outside your organisation—perhaps at an organisation in the same field or one where you\u0026rsquo;d like to work someday. This is an example of reaching out to people you don\u0026rsquo;t know directly but can connect with through your network.\nEspecially when you\u0026rsquo;re a graduate or a bit younger, people are often supportive. They\u0026rsquo;ll give you advice and try to help you get where you want to go. I\u0026rsquo;ve generally found that few people will say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not interested in helping you, and I\u0026rsquo;m not going to tell you who else to speak to.\u0026rdquo; Most people are genuine and care about you as you\u0026rsquo;re trying to grow your career.\nOscar\u0026rsquo;s Tips for Graduates # James: I have one last question. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken about graduates, and you\u0026rsquo;ve had a fantastic career working in many organisations. If you were graduating this year and starting your career next year, what is one piece of advice you would give yourself?\nOscar: I would give myself two pieces of advice. First, I would give back to my first-year university lecturers. I would ask them, \u0026ldquo;Can I do a guest lecture about my workplace experience and how I\u0026rsquo;ve applied what I learnt from you, as a thank you?\u0026rdquo;\nSecond, I would spend more time listening to executive assistants and administrators in the organisation. They are the glue that holds the organisation together. They make everything run smoothly, and if you\u0026rsquo;re in their bad books, they can slow everything down for you as well.\nWhether it\u0026rsquo;s a receptionist, an executive assistant or any other kind of administrator, these people are the glue that holds the organisation together. I\u0026rsquo;d invest more time in getting to know them.\nOutro # James: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. This conversation has been fantastic. There\u0026rsquo;s so much value inside your head, Oscar. Thanks for sitting down with me today. It\u0026rsquo;s been special.\nIf people are looking to connect with you, where is the best place for them to go?\nOscar: Visit listeningquiz.com. It has all the information you need, whether you want to take the quiz and find out what your listening barriers are or connect with me via LinkedIn. All the details are at listeningquiz.com.\nJames: Thanks so much for your time today, Oscar.\nOscar: Thanks for listening.\n← Back to episode 5\n","date":"22 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/5-on-listening-with-author-and-speaker-oscar-trimboli/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 5\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Listening with Author and Speaker, Oscar Trimboli","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Scott McKeon is the co-founder of Espresso Displays. In this episode, he reflects on the university experiences that helped him move from civil engineering into the startup world.\nExchange, extracurricular projects and nonprofit work in Nepal gave Scott room to explore interests beyond his degree. His story is a practical example of initiative compounding: one experience built the confidence and relationships needed to pursue the next, eventually helping him commit to Espresso.\nEpisode takeaways # University can be more valuable when it becomes a place to test interests, not only complete subjects. Exchange can create the distance needed to reset routines and see new possibilities. Asking whether an opportunity can be adapted to your interests can be more powerful than waiting for a perfect option. Small, self-directed projects can build the confidence needed to take a much larger professional risk. Follow Scott # Espresso Displays Scott McKeon on LinkedIn Follow Graduate Theory # https://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/linkedin\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram\n","date":"15 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/4-on-university-and-initiative-with-co-founder-of-espresso-displays-scott-mckeon/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Scott McKeon is the co-founder of Espresso Displays. In this episode, he reflects on the university experiences that helped him move from civil engineering into the startup world.\n","title":"On University and Initiative with Co-Founder of Espresso Displays, Scott McKeon","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 4\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Would you please welcome to the show tonight, Scott McKeon.\nScott: Thanks for having me on Graduate Theory.\nIntro # James: It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have you on, mate. You\u0026rsquo;ve certainly had such a diverse and unique experience at university, so I think hearing from you is going to be incredible.\nHow Scott decided what to study # James: One thing I really want to dive into is your university experience generally. We\u0026rsquo;ve spoken before the podcast, and it\u0026rsquo;s super interesting. First, what did you study at university, what was your decision-making process, and how did you decide what you were going to do?\nScott: The course I studied is called a Bachelor of Civil Engineering and a Diploma of Engineering Practice at UTS. It\u0026rsquo;s one of those things where, in hindsight, you can talk with so much clarity, but at the time I was making decisions around de-risking a bad decision rather than trying to make the perfect decision.\nWhen I was in about Year 11 and having to make these decisions, I had no idea where to start. I had no idea what I wanted to do or what life after school looked like. During Year 11, my sister was doing a gap year over at YMC in the UK and having a great time.\nTo me, finishing school, having a year off, travelling, seeing the world and just exploring sounded amazing. However, I saw some of those programs and nothing seemed exciting enough to put off a year of uni, or whatever tertiary path I wanted to take. It felt a bit more like a year in limbo, and that wasn\u0026rsquo;t something I was interested in. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what I wanted to do, and I wanted to do something that would help point me in that direction. That meant starting something and figuring it out.\nIf I had to change later down the line, then I would do that rather than delay the decision. That\u0026rsquo;s how it felt to me, at least. My sister is now taking a career path based on that gap year, so that contradicts my thoughts, but that\u0026rsquo;s what I thought at the time.\nFor me, it was really about choosing something. I knew I was maths- and analytically minded, or at least that\u0026rsquo;s what I thought I was. Someone said to me at one of these careers fairs, \u0026ldquo;Engineering\u0026rsquo;s about problem-solving.\u0026rdquo; Something about that really struck me.\nI knew I liked the built environment, so I was also considering project management and construction management, those types of roles and degrees. I was choosing around that, and I went to a careers adviser to follow up on it. She said engineering is usually a four-year course, but at UTS it\u0026rsquo;s five years because, in your second year, they get you to leave university for six months and work full-time in the industry.\nI was thinking: one, that\u0026rsquo;s pretty much the second-year gap year I was considering; and two, how about I start that internship really early? I ended up starting it a week after first-year exams. I thought that then I could travel to Europe for the European summer, having had six months of full-time work and earned money I could spend.\nThat was my entire game plan for getting into tertiary education. I would have one year at university to understand how it worked: how a semester worked, how the subjects worked, making friends and going through that whole first year figuring things out. After that, I would have six months of professional work experience. I would see what an engineer actually does, then get to travel, which was what I wanted to do anyway.\nTo me, that sounded like such a good way not to dive too deeply into a particular course, but still give something a solid go. I was very open-minded about changing to, say, a commerce or economics degree, which I thought might be a backup. I knew engineering might not be right for me, but I had a good action plan to get started.\nThat was the plan from pretty much as soon as I got accepted into the course, and I followed it. I was going to networking events in the first couple of weeks of university and trying to figure out how to get a professional internship, which was obviously one of the challenges. What was really useful was that, as an 18-year-old, I was able to get professional mentorship from my boss, my colleagues and people in a professional environment from such an early age. That compounds over time.\nThe second thing was that it complemented any theoretical studies I was doing because I was practising in the industry as my casual job, then studying it too. That was the starting point of my tertiary education, and I think everything else built off that platform.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I think so many people, even myself, get to the end of university and see people who had that fantastic opportunity at UTS. To get that experience so early on is something I really wanted. I had certain friends who were doing it, and I was so jealous because I wished I could have got something like that early on.\nEven getting a taste of the actual job you\u0026rsquo;re going to do before you finish university and go and do it is so important. You can work out: is this something I enjoy? Is there something I don\u0026rsquo;t enjoy? Was that your experience too? How did you find it, and how did it support your university studies as you continued?\nHow did working while studying improve his experience at university # Scott: That\u0026rsquo;s so true as well, because when you\u0026rsquo;re in a role, the variables are the industry and the company, with any given role at any given company being just a slice of a particular industry or field. Then you have the team you\u0026rsquo;re in. Are you in a great team? Do you have a great manager? All those things make a big difference when you\u0026rsquo;re just getting started. I was always assessing that.\nI was in two main teams on two projects during my undergrad years, and both teams were really supportive. I would ask for experience with, say, the environmental engineering team, and I\u0026rsquo;d get half a morning or a couple of hours, one or two days a week, to gain that breadth. I was really lucky to have that support.\nBeing a student is also one of the best positions you can be in, because everyone wants to help you, expose you to different opportunities and support you. There\u0026rsquo;s less obligation than in a full-time job. In a full-time job, you\u0026rsquo;re hired as a full-time resource. As a uni student, you\u0026rsquo;re essentially casual staff who can help out in a couple of ways here and there. I was lucky, but I also utilised that position to get a couple of diverse experiences.\nWhen you come back to university in third, fourth or fifth year, you and all your uni friends have had internships, probably at different places. Some of you have worked together or at the same companies on different projects. Not only individually but across the cohort, everyone is talking about what\u0026rsquo;s going on.\nYou speak to friends who had great internships and think, \u0026ldquo;That industry is probably pretty good. I never would\u0026rsquo;ve known about that.\u0026rdquo; You might know people who had terrible internships and think, \u0026ldquo;Stay away from that. That\u0026rsquo;s not what I like. That\u0026rsquo;s not right for me.\u0026rdquo; Or you might hear about other people liking something and think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s just not for me.\u0026rdquo; Learning vicariously through your cohort upped the level of the conversations you could have.\nYou could talk professionally about what was going on in the industry. People had opinions about particular projects and other things. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily call it a professional environment because you\u0026rsquo;re still uni mates, getting coffees and beers after class. It\u0026rsquo;s still very casual, but you\u0026rsquo;re learning about this stuff together. I think that made all of us much more informed about the pathways we wanted to take and the opportunities available.\nIn first year, when my sister was in third year because she\u0026rsquo;s two years older, she was studying a Bachelor of Architecture, also at UTS. There was one of these overseas trips you could go on, and UTS would give you a scholarship. She told me about it. I applied the day before applications closed and was awarded one too. We both went to Banda Aceh in Indonesia, the northwestern point that was a focal point of the Boxing Day tsunami hitting Indonesia.\nIt was a one-week social project, and I thought, \u0026ldquo;Wow, university can send you overseas to do a social-impact project, it\u0026rsquo;s paid for, you get to learn so much and you meet 10 other people from all over the UTS campus. How cool is that?\u0026rdquo;\nI ended up doing multiple projects like that, including From the Ground Up in Nepal with Joe and Nick. That was still in its very early stages, but our friends and cohort told each other about these types of opportunities as they came up in third, fourth and fifth year because those were the things we were talking about.\nIf you have a peer group who are all identifying what\u0026rsquo;s going on and where the opportunities are, particularly if you\u0026rsquo;re friends and can see what each other likes, that\u0026rsquo;s really powerful. It always comes back to who your community is and where that local information gets passed around.\nJames: I definitely agree. Even in my own university experience, when it came to moving degrees, you only really heard what a degree might be like if you knew someone doing it. Economics was your backup option, for example. Those kinds of things help so much with knowing what\u0026rsquo;s out there and what opportunities you can pursue.\nSometimes the blocker is that you don\u0026rsquo;t even know what you could do. It\u0026rsquo;s not that you don\u0026rsquo;t like it or don\u0026rsquo;t want to do it; you just have no idea. If you knew an opportunity existed, as with your exchange or your trip to Indonesia, you could decide that you wanted to go.\nWho you\u0026rsquo;re friends with and the community you\u0026rsquo;ve built through university can shape the opportunities you see and pursue. That\u0026rsquo;s so important in creating yourself as you go through uni and shaping who you become as you go into your career.\nExploring extra-curriculars during university # James: I want to continue the university timeline. You\u0026rsquo;d started this second-year program and gone on exchange. How did your third and fourth years shape up? Were you continuing to explore other extracurricular things, and what did that look like?\nScott: When I was in Europe, in the middle of second year, I was asking myself whether I should continue with engineering, particularly civil engineering, or do something else and use my first-year subjects as electives or transfer subjects, with no harm done.\nUltimately, I decided I had a lot of momentum. I had momentum in the course, a great group of friends and a great team at the internship who would be there when I came back to Sydney and wanted a job again. Even if I wasn\u0026rsquo;t set on civil engineering, that momentum was too good to give up for an unknown path. I didn\u0026rsquo;t really think twice about it. I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll see where this can go. This is pretty good.\u0026rdquo;\nThe end of second year was great because the second half of second year is when the course schedules students to take six months off. All my friends had taken six months off for their internships, so I had to meet a whole group of students who were off the set course timeline that people follow to a tee. I had front-loaded internships, and after that I was always optimising the timeline around how many days I could work.\nIt was great because I always had my core group of friends, but I was also meeting mature-age students, people from here and there, and people who had transferred from other degrees. It was good to break out of the initial pattern of starting in year one and following the same group of people each semester.\nI got to learn through them what they had done. Someone had taken two years off to do ski seasons in Australia and then overseas. I heard those types of stories and journeys, including how people had ended up back in engineering. Someone had been studying a teaching degree and then transferred to engineering. Someone else studied engineering, went into nursing for 10 or 15 years, then came back to engineering.\nThose were the types of people I met. Their stories, right as I was coming back from Europe and contemplating whether to continue on this path, grounded my constant thinking: what am I doing? What am I liking? What can I do? How can I try to figure out new things?\nThird year was more about really sinking into the university ecosystem. I still had that casual job from the internship, I had my core university work, and I was involved in uni games, which was a lot of fun. I don\u0026rsquo;t think too much else happened. I was recalibrating, and third year is probably the toughest year in the course, so I wasn\u0026rsquo;t doing much beyond that. I had planned to go on exchange for six months in fourth year, so it was about grounding myself and following through with the degree.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t recall too much else of note from third year. In fourth year, I went on exchange in the States for six months. I came back and started getting involved with From the Ground Up, UTS and a whole range of other activities. That was really the turning point.\nThe other thing I tried in third year was getting internships at start-ups. I was emailing consultancies and similar places to see what I could do for my second internship. I knew I was going on exchange and would do my second internship after I came back. It was a big period of trying different things, although nothing really came out of it.\nThere was a social-payments company where I was a brand ambassador for a couple of weeks. Then it was bought by Airbnb and shut down. One of my friends was starting a cleaning-platform start-up, and I was trying to get a job or help out with that, but I had no idea what to do and it didn\u0026rsquo;t go anywhere.\nEven while I was at uni and had a casual job in the industry, I was trying a range of other things, or at least looking for the right opportunity where I could say, \u0026ldquo;Let\u0026rsquo;s try it.\u0026rdquo; All that came to a pause when I went on exchange. You pause life for six months, go overseas and travel.\nExchange was really cool because I did no engineering subjects. I obviously have a lot of interests beyond civil engineering, and this was my opportunity to explore them. I did psychology, film studies, public speaking and a marketing subject. They were all introductory subjects, but learning entirely different things outside any engineering coursework, combined with living in a different place and not having the internship or the same lifestyle, was a really good breather from engineering back home.\nWhen I came home, that energised me to get back to work and back to business. I reached out to Joey and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, Joey, I think I can help. How can I help? I\u0026rsquo;ll just be a fly on the wall. I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I can do, but I want to be involved and see what happens.\u0026rdquo; It was the same with UTS.\nI had momentum, then when I pulled back I became hungrier to dive into things. I think it\u0026rsquo;s healthy to pull back from what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, sit back and let the hunger build up again so you can go full steam ahead.\nJames: I absolutely agree. I want to dive further into your exchange experience because I know, from my own experience, it was similar. I\u0026rsquo;m actually wearing a jumper at the moment from when I went to Sheffield in the UK.\nGoing away was a good opportunity to reset and consider where I was going at uni and what I was doing with my life. When I came back, similar to what you said, I was really energised. My grades were much better, I was joining more clubs and participating in things.\nGoing on exchange # James: I was actively seeking opportunities much more than before I went. Honestly, I think it was one of the best things I\u0026rsquo;ve ever done. Would you agree, and was there a clear before-and-after moment for you?\nScott: The main benefit was that, as life goes on, you accumulate more things and responsibilities, and things get set. You have a casual job, and you don\u0026rsquo;t have to opt into it any more. Instead, you have to ask, \u0026ldquo;Do I not want to work here any more? Do I quit?\u0026rdquo; Otherwise, you continue. You don\u0026rsquo;t have to opt into your university degree any more. You have to ask whether you\u0026rsquo;re going to continue with it, finish it or quit.\nWe describe the things you accumulate in your life as a bucket. Everyone is holding a bucket, and responsibilities are constantly being put into it until it\u0026rsquo;s full. When more responsibilities come along, it\u0026rsquo;s as if you\u0026rsquo;re walking down a beach and those responsibilities are shells in your bucket. You find the nicest shell you\u0026rsquo;ve seen, but your bucket is full. What do you do? You find something in the bucket and say, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t want that any more.\u0026rdquo;\nYou take out a responsibility you no longer want: perhaps a committee or something else that\u0026rsquo;s taking up your time and that you\u0026rsquo;re no longer enjoying. You take it out and put this new thing in.\nExchange, at least for me, was tipping that bucket out entirely. Life was on hold for six months. I was going overseas. There was no work, and while you do exchange subjects, it\u0026rsquo;s not as academic as you\u0026rsquo;re used to in a normal semester. You have a new group of friends. All of that was very freeing, as was the space to explore beyond engineering.\nI had this narrative in my head that I was a civil engineer and that was what I was doing. That was my narrative in first, second and third year: I was going to give civil engineering a good shot. I always had in the background that it might not be the case, with a plan B and plan C, but I was going to give engineering a solid go. I wanted to prove to myself that it wasn\u0026rsquo;t for me by doing a good job of it.\nIt was very freeing to say, \u0026ldquo;Scott, at the end of the day, you\u0026rsquo;re not a civil engineer. You\u0026rsquo;re Scott, and Scott can be interested in a lot of things.\u0026rdquo; That was my time to explore, and I really got into it. Even though some of those subjects I did on exchange were pass/fail and didn\u0026rsquo;t really matter, I studied more than I needed to get by because I liked them. I found myself speaking to lecturers after class about the topic of the day for no reason. That was an intrinsic motivator.\nTowards the end, you come back and integrate into normal life. Before I started putting responsibilities back in the bucket, I had to think, \u0026ldquo;What do I want to commit myself to, and is what I currently have enough for me to be satisfied?\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s where Joey and the From the Ground Up Nepal project came in. I loved overseas projects. I\u0026rsquo;d travelled to Indonesia and other parts of Asia, I was studying civil engineering and the built environment, and this project involved building schools, health centres and infrastructure after an earthquake. You can see that it was a natural thing for me to be interested in, given what I\u0026rsquo;d been doing. It was an opportunity to help out.\nIf I hadn\u0026rsquo;t had that break and reset, I probably would have said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m too busy. I\u0026rsquo;ve got this thing coming up. Sorry, Joe, maybe something else.\u0026rdquo; Instead, I came back from exchange and told work I wasn\u0026rsquo;t starting again for a while, during the university\u0026rsquo;s mid-semester or between-semester break. I had the time and an opportunity to pursue those natural interests.\nThat gap was good, but From the Ground Up, UTS and the engineering job all grew with responsibilities, and everything started to accumulate again.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool. The bucket and shells are a fantastic analogy and a great way to think about it. Like yourself, I think having the opportunity to empty the bucket and put in things you really want lets you dive into your genuine interests, rather than things you\u0026rsquo;ve picked up along the way almost by accident.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s life-changing and can take you down a path closer to the things you want to do, rather than the things you\u0026rsquo;ve always done. One thing I wanted to speak to you about is the non-profit work you did in Nepal.\nNon-Profit work in Nepal # James: Could you describe what was involved? You touched on it there, but what were the main learnings? What were the real benefits for you?\nScott: I played a very small role. I would probably say 98 or 99 per cent of it was a guy called Nick Abraham, who was living over in Nepal for three and a half years. He\u0026rsquo;s a carpenter and builder, and he was going over there to build. He and Joey got connected, and Joey was supporting him. The next thing, Joey was going over to Nepal to help, so he became involved. I saw it from a distance, but I was going on exchange soon and had that inertia of, \u0026ldquo;Oh, that\u0026rsquo;s cool that Joey\u0026rsquo;s doing that.\u0026rdquo;\nJoey and I had been close friends since high school, so it was very accessible, but I was still watching it from a distance. When I came back from exchange, I said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m keen to help out. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure what I can do. I\u0026rsquo;ll be a fly on the wall.\u0026rdquo; Over time, I started helping more and more. About seven or eight months later—in August 2016 I became involved, then in March 2017—I was over in Nepal, where I met Nick for the second time but for the first time since becoming involved.\nJoey went over to Nepal and got quite sick quite quickly. He said, \u0026ldquo;You know what? I\u0026rsquo;m going to help you from Australia. You keep doing your good work, and I\u0026rsquo;ll help with all the back-end work around running the non-profit, fundraising and anything else you need.\u0026rdquo; I was helping Joey with what was going on.\nNick was living in a community about two hours out of Kathmandu, the capital of Nepal. Initially, we were trying to build a school because we were told that was what people needed. While they did need core infrastructure, over time we saw two main needs that weren\u0026rsquo;t being served by other non-profits or local governments. The local governments were also building schools, so by coming in we were competing with them to build their own infrastructure. You can see how it gets messy when people come from Australia to try to build local government infrastructure.\nThe first thing people did need, which Nick could give them, was greater education about construction methods and quality. When the next earthquake happens, there won\u0026rsquo;t be as much devastation because the building quality is higher.\nThe second was not only giving them education, but also providing employment so they could practise those methods and earn a sustainable income in their local community. They wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have to do what a number of people in Nepal and other parts of Asia do: go overseas and send money home.\nI used to know the figure, but the statistic has escaped me because I haven\u0026rsquo;t been involved for a number of years. Money sent back by overseas family members is one of the big contributors to Nepal\u0026rsquo;s economy. I think it\u0026rsquo;s GDP, though it may be another measure of how money flows into Nepal, but it is statistically significant.\nThrough doing that, we transitioned from a non-profit that did a lot of incredible work—we built two schools, a health centre and more than 100 toilet blocks in this region—to also starting a social enterprise and brick factory. It was a construction contractor and brick factory that Nick still runs today, and he also has an Australian branch of the same business as a builder.\nThat was all really exciting. My journey from it had two big lessons. First, it was a self-directed project. We had Nick leading it with boots on the ground and us supporting, but there was no set goal that said, \u0026ldquo;This is what we\u0026rsquo;re doing.\u0026rdquo; It was, \u0026ldquo;We\u0026rsquo;re here to help. Nick is really part of the community. How can we help them?\u0026rdquo; We had various advisers and mentors around us, but ultimately we had to make our own decisions to move things forward.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not that there are very few opportunities to do self-directed projects; I think the opposite. There are plenty, and that\u0026rsquo;s certainly what we\u0026rsquo;re doing with The Constant Student. But in the more traditional world outside entrepreneurship, there are very limited opportunities. At the large engineering and construction company where I worked, and at university, you were being told what to do the entire time rather than deciding on a goal and working towards it.\nConceptually, that gave me so much of the confidence I needed to go into Espresso after leaving university with no prior experience in that industry. I had done the reps of setting a goal and working towards it, even when I didn\u0026rsquo;t know the exact path, with Nick, Joey and a few other people.\nThe other lesson was gaining experience with all the nuances and challenges. When you don\u0026rsquo;t know what to do, whom do you ask? How do you build a supportive mentor network around you? The project was a platform to get mentorship and advice, and then to get opportunities that came up through places such as UTS. UTS could say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re doing this Nepal thing. How can the university support it?\u0026rdquo; Your workplace could ask how it could support the work too.\nHaving a project as a platform is like having a podcast that lets you reach out to people and interview them. You can learn a lot from the platform mentality of having your own project. It\u0026rsquo;s great for pretty much anyone.\nJames: I loved what you said about thinking independently and the shift that happened while you worked on the project. You went from working in a team where the manager or someone else says, \u0026ldquo;Please do this,\u0026rdquo; and you\u0026rsquo;re almost a robot who says, \u0026ldquo;Yes, I\u0026rsquo;ll do it,\u0026rdquo; to deciding for yourself, \u0026ldquo;I want to achieve this. How do I do it?\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s certainly important for what you\u0026rsquo;re doing, but it\u0026rsquo;s also a general life skill: being able to think independently and pursue what you\u0026rsquo;ve decided you want.\nComing back into university # James: That\u0026rsquo;s super important. You also mentioned your experience with UTS and how the Nepal experience integrated back into university. Do you mind diving into that? What situation came up there?\nScott: At university, I always knew approximately what marks I was going to get. I had a couple of techniques and tactics. If there was an easy assignment, I aimed for a high distinction and went for 100 per cent.\nWhen an assignment was given out, I would spend three or four hours on it that day, make the template, do as much as I could and map out what it entailed. Then I would come to each lecture or tutorial with a couple of questions that helped me answer it. It was quick and efficient. The lecturer liked that you had started the assignment well before everyone else and were asking questions. Those were cheeky tactics, but a very good use of time.\nUniversity subjects were tough, and exams had high variability. You might think you\u0026rsquo;d tanked an exam and be very worried afterwards. With an assignment, you set the quality of what you submit. If you\u0026rsquo;ve seen past papers, you can estimate your performance from other work. For me, it was always pretty reasonable, and I never really had to complain about marks.\nWhen I came back from exchange, around the same time I started with Nepal, one of my friends messaged me during exam time and said, \u0026ldquo;I thought I was going to get this good mark. I put in so much effort, but I ended up getting this mark. I\u0026rsquo;m really disappointed. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t fair.\u0026rdquo;\nI was interested in the student experience. I had industry experience but was still a student of about 20 or 21, so I could see both sides. There were gaps and barriers where the student experience could be delivered better, people could learn more and everyone could get better outcomes. At the same time, the view that academics should do everything because it wasn\u0026rsquo;t easy and was unfair wasn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily the answer either.\nI started emailing subject coordinators from subjects I\u0026rsquo;d done, saying I was interested in learning more about the student experience. Eventually, I was referred to the person who ran teaching and learning in the engineering faculty, looking at student learning and outcomes at the course level. I had coffee with him and told him some of these stories and how I approached group assignments. I had a method for that too.\nHe started inviting me to things, saying, \u0026ldquo;We have a faculty offsite once a semester. How about you come? There\u0026rsquo;s always a student panel about the student experience.\u0026rdquo; I remember going and feeling like an outsider, not because I was a student, but because every other student was president of a society, had done this and was involved in X, Y and Z. They had all these credentials.\nEveryone asked what I did within the university environment. I said, \u0026ldquo;Pretty much nothing. I turn up, do my classes, have friends and have an internship.\u0026rdquo; The non-profit was only just getting started then, or perhaps hadn\u0026rsquo;t started yet. I felt strange being around all these people and wondered why I was there as a student voice.\nI was there because I was interested. Why did that staff member invite me? Because I was interested. While I felt strange about not being president of a society or group, perhaps I was there because I was the most interested in that specific topic, not because I had accolades. With accolades, you become the person invited to everything and simply turn up.\nMy grades were going quite well, and I did particularly well in one subject that was related to Nepal. We had to design a concrete and brick mix, which was what we were doing in Nepal at the time. After class, I could speak to the subject coordinator specifically about that. This comes back to the platform conversation: my marks related to my work in Nepal, and other parts of the subject related to my engineering internship. It all started stacking up very serendipitously.\nOnce I got my marks back, I went to the subject coordinator and said, \u0026ldquo;Can I help you teach this subject next semester? I have work experience, did well in the subject and have the Nepal experience. How can I do that?\u0026rdquo; I had no idea whether I could or whether he had any places. I just thought to ask.\nEventually, I got a job as a tutor or teaching assistant, initially just helping students in class. That was easy.\nOnce I was comfortable, I said I could run the tutorials and give the coordinator those two or three hours back. In the first class, I hung in the corner and answered students\u0026rsquo; questions. In the second, I asked, \u0026ldquo;Can I run the class and have you supervise instead?\u0026rdquo; He agreed. After two classes, I said, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m fine. You can be there if I need you, but I know the content.\u0026rdquo; He\u0026rsquo;d seen me do it twice, so he agreed. It was very incremental: \u0026ldquo;Let me do this,\u0026rdquo; then being able to do it.\nI loved it because, particularly in engineering, I had rarely found the teaching staff relatable as a student. As a student tutor, I could say, \u0026ldquo;Here\u0026rsquo;s the curriculum. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to get through it,\u0026rdquo; without dressing it up and saying you needed to know something for a vague reason. I could speak to students with understanding: \u0026ldquo;This is the information you need to get through the course, and here\u0026rsquo;s how it relates to my work experience and non-profit work.\u0026rdquo; That was really enjoyable.\nOnce I was involved in that subject, other subjects and opportunities came up. UTS was transitioning from semesters to trimesters, which shortened and changed the timeline of both core semesters. A new summer trimester opened up, but there were no subjects to fill it because people normally went on holidays and academics did much of their research then. The teaching semester makes it hard for them to do the main body of their research.\nThey were looking for subjects and naturally asking whom they should speak to. Someone said, \u0026ldquo;What about that Scott guy? He might have a subject you could do.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s what happened. Joey was the client representative for From the Ground Up and I was the UTS representative. To top it off, I got the engineering company where I was interning to sponsor an industry prize for the subject: the real trifecta. It was really good.\nAs I mentioned earlier, graduate employers expect you not to know much about the industry when you finish a three-, four- or five-year course. That\u0026rsquo;s why my engineering capstone project involved aligning and redesigning parts of the engineering course with graduate work, creating a clear ramp through university and an off-ramp into graduate life.\nJames: There\u0026rsquo;s so much to unpack. The initiative you\u0026rsquo;ve shown slowly built all these experiences and led you to create your own subject at uni. It\u0026rsquo;s an incredible story and shows the value of continually pushing your case forward, because so many people wouldn\u0026rsquo;t do that.\nShowing Initiative # James: They might think, \u0026ldquo;No one would accept me if I asked this,\u0026rdquo; and count themselves out before asking. Your story is a great example of pushing things forward. Maybe they say yes and maybe they don\u0026rsquo;t, but regardless, you continue. So many doors have opened because you\u0026rsquo;ve put yourself out there and been in it to win it.\nYou also spoke about the ramp from leaving university to becoming a graduate in a company, and the mismatch that can occur between what the workplace expects you to know to be effective and what university teaches. Was that your experience? As you approached graduation, did you discuss it with people?\nScott: I was in a very atypical position. I started my professional experience a week after first-year exams, and it continued for four and a half years until I graduated. I onboarded graduates and did their introductions, and I knew the next level above graduate roles. I knew that exact pathway and the quality of those roles because I\u0026rsquo;d worked there for years.\nIt was a big project with about 400 people, so I saw the breadth of people\u0026rsquo;s experience and the work they could do. I could judge where I sat compared with them in terms of what I could do day to day. I understood that quite well.\nThere was a lot of uncertainty as graduation approached. I was doing all these great projects, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t know what was next. I was essentially asking someone to sell me a job that looked great: excite me about something. Unfortunately, my company wasn\u0026rsquo;t doing that. I had meetings with site-based and corporate HR and was shown a couple of opportunities, but they weren\u0026rsquo;t very interesting.\nThey were also trying to create a graduate program. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Awesome. That\u0026rsquo;s what I want to do.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d been an undergraduate for so long, my thesis partly redesigned the civil engineering course to create that graduate on-ramp, and I\u0026rsquo;d known the company from age 18 to 23. I obviously had opinions about it, and that was what I aimed for.\nUltimately, it went into the HR bucket. I asked to speak to someone from HR, but for them it was one of 10 things on a to-do list. Meanwhile, I was saying, \u0026ldquo;Let me do it.\u0026rdquo; That was one path. Another was speaking to graduate employers and applying to standard programs, trying to find a role I liked.\nThe final path came from an entrepreneurial course I was doing. A side project grew out of it, starting as a second screen for a laptop. It gathered momentum and excitement. We began making prototypes very quickly, and we were both keen to see what would happen next.\nUTS was also offering me more work teaching subjects and doing casual teaching-and-learning and curriculum work after my capstone. A few things were going on. From around August, I gave myself until the end of October, when my graduation ceremony took place. I never accepted a full-time graduate contract because I didn\u0026rsquo;t want one.\nBy my graduation ceremony, I said, \u0026ldquo;Sorry, I finish on this date. I\u0026rsquo;m interested in doing the graduate-program project, but nothing else.\u0026rdquo; Ultimately, they said they couldn\u0026rsquo;t get involved in it then.\nThat led me to say, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got this UTS work. Let\u0026rsquo;s see where espresso displays can go as well,\u0026rdquo; and dive into the exciting start-up world. From the outside, the possibilities looked incredible. Even at the beginning, we were flying to China to visit manufacturers and learn how to develop a product. That journey was opening up while I was fighting hard to do something at the company that made sense for a person like me to implement.\nIn a big corporation, it\u0026rsquo;s hard to get things done and everyone has to stay in their lane. One of the most important things is getting the people who are most interested to work on what they\u0026rsquo;re passionate about. That\u0026rsquo;s very hard in a big corporate organisation unless the culture supports it, and I don\u0026rsquo;t think that was the case. But an opportunity lost is an opportunity gained.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a very interesting story. Big corporations can have a grey line. It\u0026rsquo;s not necessarily that they\u0026rsquo;re slow-moving, but you have to ask one person to ask another. That can create a barrier for someone like you, who has the initiative and drive to go and smash things out straight away. You want to do the thing, but all these barriers are in the way. A start-up is perfect for you.\nScott: Right, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t know that at the time. The corporate world was the only world I knew. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know the scary start-up world, but a couple of years later, it\u0026rsquo;s definitely where I belong much more.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s a great story. You\u0026rsquo;ve now been part of this start-up for a few years. What real challenges have you faced and overcome along the way?\nFacing challenges with Espresso # James: How have you dealt with those challenges? There\u0026rsquo;s no doubt that in a start-up you face serious challenges that you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t face as a graduate in a company. What have some of those been, and how have you dealt with them?\nScott: Espresso is now growing quite fast, and I\u0026rsquo;m learning so much every day at an increasing rate. In the first six or 12 months, I wasn\u0026rsquo;t very efficient or focused on the right things. It helped that we had two clear goals: make a prototype we could pre-sell, then pre-sell it by launching a Kickstarter campaign. Everything else was non-essential, although there was a lot of non-essential work going on.\nWhat I wish I\u0026rsquo;d had then was The Constant Student and project feedback sessions with people a couple of steps ahead. They could do more than pat you on the back; they could tell you which skills to spend time developing now because they would pay off later.\nAt the early stage, get very clear about what you want to achieve. Then create your own learning curriculum based on the time and resources you have. If you have money to spend, you can get good advice early. I could probably have hired an expert adviser for a couple of hundred dollars a month for one or two check-ins, if they didn\u0026rsquo;t want to help for free because they supported what we were doing.\nThere were also software tools I wish I\u0026rsquo;d learnt then. You can always look back as you learn and see how you could have done things better. What\u0026rsquo;s important is clarity about what you\u0026rsquo;re trying to achieve, then creating forced milestones that help you get more done more quickly and reach your destination faster.\nThe big difficulty we opted into with Espresso was launching a crowdfunding campaign based on a prototype without fully understanding the manufacturing process. Many people launch Kickstarter campaigns when manufacturing is ready and all they need is the final order. We only had a prototype, so we were biting off more than we could chew.\nThe campaign went really well. We sold more than 1,000 units in the first 40 days, then had to figure out how to manufacture the product. During that process, the COVID pandemic began in China, where we were manufacturing. My co-founder was in Shenzhen while the whole country was in lockdown, and he struggled to get back just before the borders shut.\nThere were many challenges like that. This comes back to From the Ground Up, professional work experience and everything else: the momentum and confidence reveal themselves. You need to keep pushing and taking the next step. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter which start-up you\u0026rsquo;re working on or what milestone or objective you\u0026rsquo;re pursuing. You need perseverance. If you listen to, read or hear anything about this type of work—trying to make something from nothing—perseverance is number one.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. When heaps of things are happening, being able to persevere is fantastic. Even through university, you\u0026rsquo;ve received noes but persevered anyway.\nLooking at where you are now, what key things prepared you well for what you do? Did university do a good job, or was it more your work experience, Nepal and the other things you did?\nDo you think university prepared you well? # James: Even within university, how well did it prepare you for what you\u0026rsquo;re doing?\nScott: University is one of the best educational ecosystem products. Education isn\u0026rsquo;t the product, and the curriculum is the excuse; it\u0026rsquo;s what you enrol in. The actual product is the ecosystem: the people and friends you\u0026rsquo;re doing these things with. In my case, there was no internship without the degree.\nUniversity prompted the internship and travelling at that particular time because it was between semesters. It prompted exchange: you have to be part of a university to go on exchange.\nBecause I was involved in those things, I became involved in From the Ground Up. Because I was a student, I became involved in teaching and learning at the university. There was also an entrepreneurial course I was interested in, and that\u0026rsquo;s where the first idea for Espresso started.\nYou have to ask what you got out of it. Was it any given subject, class or syllabus dot point? No. The ecosystem was the value. That\u0026rsquo;s why I feel for first-, second- and third-year uni students over the last year and this year: all they have is the curriculum, while the ecosystem is remote.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s also why our recent book, 18 and Lost, tells eight different stories about what people have done and how they\u0026rsquo;ve navigated this time. It\u0026rsquo;s meant to reassure people at that age and stage. You don\u0026rsquo;t really know what to do, and there is no perfect answer or path. Hearing several other stories in depth empowers you to recognise that you\u0026rsquo;re on your own journey and can make daily decisions that put you on the right path. The book\u0026rsquo;s goal is to have people think about their path and decisions that way.\nThe other thing is The Constant Student: take the best parts of the ecosystem and remove the worst parts of the product. As you would know as a member, there is absolutely no curriculum. It\u0026rsquo;s just the ecosystem and the programs run through it. They aren\u0026rsquo;t run to give you a certificate or something to show everyone else; they offer techniques that help you do more of what you want to do.\nThe prompt is that everyone has their own goal. The six-week programs take you from point A to point B and make a tangible difference during that time. My takeaway is to think of university as an ecosystem. It\u0026rsquo;s a great ecosystem that you can get a lot out of. Anyone who only attends classes and doesn\u0026rsquo;t get involved beyond that is missing a lot more.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a fantastic way to put it. The benefit I got from university was magnified once I became involved with university clubs, went on exchange, attended class, met my housemates and did things with them. Those experiences are associated with uni but aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily part of the university process itself. That describes the value you can get during university very well.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve got one last question, Scott. Given all your experiences through university and where you are now with your start-up, what one lesson would you give yourself if you were starting university again at the beginning of next year?\nOne lesson to those starting university # Scott: Join The Constant Student. Honestly, without a doubt, that\u0026rsquo;s what I would say. That\u0026rsquo;s why Liam, Joey and I are working on it and why it exists. There\u0026rsquo;s so much you can learn right now. If university is being delivered online, imagine learning on the internet without the university constraint of subjects and coursework.\nHow about learning within 12 weeks or one or two years? In one year, you could not only learn a year\u0026rsquo;s worth of information and content, but also learn and earn. You could earn money from the things you\u0026rsquo;re learning and level up in multiple ways. Again, it\u0026rsquo;s the ecosystem.\nThe ecosystem is your platform to build on. All the things I benefited from are consolidated within The Constant Student, and it will continue to grow over the years. Get involved and ask questions. Rather than looking for answers to be given to you, think of yourself as an adventurer. You have to discover, look around, determine things, ask questions and try things. People are always happy to help, guide you along the path and let you try things. If you have that mentality, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t really matter what you do. Because you\u0026rsquo;re doing things, you\u0026rsquo;ll find the right answer.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s amazing and profound advice. I really appreciate it, and it\u0026rsquo;s certainly valuable. Thanks so much for your time today.\nIf listeners want to find out what you do and connect with you, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place to go?\nScott: You can find me at espresso displays. The website is espres.so. You can also find me on LinkedIn as Scott McKeon. That\u0026rsquo;s pretty much it.\nJames: Cool. Thanks so much for your time, Scott. I appreciate your wisdom. We\u0026rsquo;ll wrap it there.\nScott: Awesome. Thanks so much.\n← Back to episode 4\n","date":"15 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/4-on-university-and-initiative-with-co-founder-of-espresso-displays-scott-mckeon/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 4\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On University and Initiative with Co-Founder of Espresso Displays, Scott McKeon","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Wendy Teasdale-Smith is the former CEO of the South Australian Tertiary Admissions Centre. Her career has spanned teaching, school leadership, executive roles, board work and public-speaking coaching.\nThis conversation looks beyond job titles to the work that prepares someone for leadership. Wendy argues that progression usually starts before a promotion appears: by taking initiative, contributing outside a narrow job description and building evidence that you can accept greater responsibility.\nEpisode takeaways # A successful career does not have to mean climbing a management ladder; doing valuable work well is an equally valid ambition. People who want to lead should begin practising leadership before they have the title. Senior roles involve less hands-on delivery and more accountability for people, budgets and outcomes. A portfolio career can combine several kinds of meaningful work instead of relying on one defining role. Wendy\u0026rsquo;s links # What\u0026rsquo;s the Stuff? Wendy Teasdale-Smith on LinkedIn Graduate Theory # https://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/linkedin\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram\n","date":"6 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/2-on-career-progression-and-leadership-with-former-satac-ceo-wendy-teasdale-smith/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Wendy Teasdale-Smith is the former CEO of the South Australian Tertiary Admissions Centre. Her career has spanned teaching, school leadership, executive roles, board work and public-speaking coaching.\n","title":"On Career Progression and Leadership with Former SATAC CEO, Wendy Teasdale-Smith","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Darren Fleming is a behavioural scientist and peak-performance strategist who coaches people to communicate, sell and ask better questions.\nThe conversation connects public speaking, imposter syndrome and recurring patterns in our lives. Darren\u0026rsquo;s central idea is that difficult emotions are not problems to suppress or perform for other people; we can experience them, let them pass and respond with more intention.\nEpisode takeaways # Most people experience uncertainty in unfamiliar roles, even when they appear confident from the outside. Public speaking matters because good ideas cannot travel if we are unable to communicate them. Repeated frustrations can be clues to patterns in our own behaviour, not just evidence that everyone else is at fault. Feeling an emotion without suppressing or amplifying it can create space for a calmer response. Darren\u0026rsquo;s links # Darren Fleming\u0026rsquo;s website Darren Fleming on LinkedIn Graduate Theory # https://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/linkedin\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram\n","date":"6 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/3-on-patterns-and-letting-go-with-behavioural-scientist-darren-fleming/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Darren Fleming is a behavioural scientist and peak-performance strategist who coaches people to communicate, sell and ask better questions.\n","title":"On Patterns and Letting Go with Behavioural Scientist, Darren Fleming","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 2\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hi there and welcome. My name is James, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a former high school principal. She\u0026rsquo;s since become the CEO at the South Australian Tertiary Admissions Centre. Today, she is involved with many academic institutions and is on executive boards across South Australia.\nHer main thing is What\u0026rsquo;s the Stuff. What\u0026rsquo;s the stuff, Wendy Teasdale-Smith? Welcome to the show. It\u0026rsquo;s great to have you on.\nWendy: Thank you. It\u0026rsquo;s great to be on. I\u0026rsquo;m really looking forward to it.\nJames: Excellent. One thing I do want to delve into is that you\u0026rsquo;ve had such a fantastic career. You\u0026rsquo;ve gone through the whole chain, from right at the bottom to right at the top.\nHow did you end up in your current executive coaching and public speaking coaching role? How did that come about?\nWendy: That\u0026rsquo;s actually something I did later in my career. In some senses, I consider myself almost post-career because I\u0026rsquo;m technically, at least, semi-retired. The public speaking coaching is something I chose to do after I had, technically at least, finished full-time work, and it was really a hobby or an interest. I\u0026rsquo;m in a position now where I don\u0026rsquo;t need to earn a really big salary and all those sorts of things. I don\u0026rsquo;t want to work quite as hard as I used to or be under as much pressure as I was when I was in executive roles.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s really how I got to do that. Someone at the time was talking to me about consultancy in general. Lots of education people go into consultancy, and that really means they\u0026rsquo;re not doing much at all. Anyway, this person said to me, \u0026ldquo;Wendy, I think you could be a public speaking coach.\u0026rdquo; I thought, \u0026ldquo;Oh, I reckon I\u0026rsquo;d enjoy that.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s one of the things in what I call a portfolio career now. I\u0026rsquo;m doing several different things: public speaking coaching, involvement in Women on Boards, and lecturing international students in an MBA course. There are lots of different things now rather than one big gig, like I used to have.\nJames: Public speaking is one of the ways I\u0026rsquo;ve connected with you, and something that you\u0026rsquo;re definitely very good at. You\u0026rsquo;ve received multiple awards for different public speaking things that you\u0026rsquo;ve done. Is that something you\u0026rsquo;ve worked on and improved throughout your whole career, or have you paid close attention to it more recently?\nWendy: It\u0026rsquo;s actually followed me throughout my career, to be honest with you. I remember being able to do things like debates really well at high school. That was about confidence, I think, and being able to argue a point. I used to get As in those, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t think about it much until I had just started my first permanent job and was sent to Port Augusta as a teacher. My then principal was a new and really up-and-coming person. He was all over the media, which was unusual in those days because it was way before social media as we know it now.\nHe spoke really well. He was really good at speaking to staff, engaging them and getting the message across. I remember thinking very early in my career, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s something to get good at,\u0026rdquo; and practising. I looked at how different people spoke and for different ways to improve: what made one person come across as credible and another person not come across as credible. I started looking at that sort of thing very early, basically in my first full-time job as a teacher.\nJames: Talk to me about your early days, when you started teaching and things like that. Was it something you really had a passion for when you were going through high school and university, or something you ended up in and your passion grew over time as you got more involved?\nWendy: Part of my story, part of my narrative, is the fact that I was born in Elizabeth. For people who are not familiar with that, it\u0026rsquo;s a very working-class part of South Australia. Jimmy Barnes grew up there, and that\u0026rsquo;s where the song \u0026ldquo;Working Class Man\u0026rdquo; comes from. I came from a poor background, in a Housing Trust house, without a lot of aspirations or leaders around in the community that we knew. My dad was a refrigeration mechanic, and my mum worked in the cafeteria at what was then Harris Scarfe, so they weren\u0026rsquo;t what you\u0026rsquo;d call well-paid jobs. The idea of leadership wasn\u0026rsquo;t part of the game at all.\nUniversity was a strong emphasis of my father\u0026rsquo;s. He\u0026rsquo;d obviously always wanted to get a degree himself but was never in a financial position to do so. He really pushed my sister and me to get a university degree. Teaching was the thing because, in those days, in Elizabeth in particular, or in working-class places, a woman had two career options. One was nursing and the other was teaching, and I didn\u0026rsquo;t like blood.\nTeaching it was. That\u0026rsquo;s really how the decision was made. After I\u0026rsquo;d become a qualified teacher and started teaching, I wondered whether it really was for me. As you get promoted in teaching, it\u0026rsquo;s one of those things where you get moved outside the classroom. The more you get promoted for what you\u0026rsquo;re good at, the less you do of it. For many years, I wondered whether it was something that merely worked okay or something I had a passion for.\nI wasn\u0026rsquo;t certain until I started lecturing at Kaplan Business School, which is with international students. Then I realised just how much of a passion it was, how natural it was and how great it felt to be back in the classroom again. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t until then that I really appreciated that teaching was meant for me and that I was in the right job.\nI think it comes into the broader category of being an altruistic kind of person. I get a really strong sense of satisfaction when my students achieve. I don\u0026rsquo;t get lots of satisfaction from making a profit; I get lots of satisfaction from those sorts of things. That\u0026rsquo;s the type of person who\u0026rsquo;s going to be good at teaching. It\u0026rsquo;s the same with people in any type of service industry: it\u0026rsquo;s about giving and getting back from other people. That\u0026rsquo;s the sort of thing that wakes me up in the morning and makes me feel enthusiastic. It turned out to be the right career, although a few times I thought perhaps it wasn\u0026rsquo;t.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool, and it\u0026rsquo;s certainly a great story that you almost lucked into something you ended up being so passionate about.\nWendy: I don\u0026rsquo;t know how that happened, but it was the right career. My parents didn\u0026rsquo;t expect me to do more. I remember my dad saying, \u0026ldquo;Take typing at school in Year 10. Just in case you don\u0026rsquo;t become a teacher, then you can become a secretary.\u0026rdquo; The idea that I would do anything else, or that there was anything else to do, was far outside their worldview. It didn\u0026rsquo;t occur to them that there were a whole lot of opportunities out there, so they didn\u0026rsquo;t share that with me at the time.\nJames: You started work as a teacher and then went along this path where you were getting promoted within the school. You were going up and up, and the further you went, the more you moved outside the classroom.\nOne thing that really interests me is that some people can continue this progression, while other people struggle at certain points. Some people aren\u0026rsquo;t interested in going up, which is totally fine. There are also people like you who manage to continue going up, while others get stuck at a certain level or want to go up but have something in their way. Have you seen examples of that? In your situation, was there anything you did in particular to get past those barriers?\nWendy: For me, I had to have a career. I didn\u0026rsquo;t realise that when I was younger, and I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been happy unless I had one. But it isn\u0026rsquo;t for everyone, and you don\u0026rsquo;t want or need a world where everyone wants to climb a career ladder. You want some people who want to do their job really well. That\u0026rsquo;s actually the important thing.\nWhen I was a principal and we had some sort of leadership position, maybe an acting job, I\u0026rsquo;d approach one or two of my really good teachers and say, \u0026ldquo;Have you thought about going for this coordinator role? Have you thought about doing this?\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;d consider it and then say, \u0026ldquo;Wendy, I really love teaching.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;Great. You stay in the classroom and do that, because that\u0026rsquo;s where I need people like you: people who really love teaching, want to stay there and want to make a difference.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s really important that a career ladder isn\u0026rsquo;t for everyone, and it isn\u0026rsquo;t a measure of your success or what contribution you make to the world. There are times I\u0026rsquo;ve wished I was a little less driven than I am. A couple of times I\u0026rsquo;ve thought it would be nice to have a bit of a break, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t for me.\nThere are real qualities that make you a leader and the sort of person who\u0026rsquo;s bound to do well in life in terms of what we call traditional success: having a career, moving forward, earning more money and so on. I see some of those traits in younger people now, and I\u0026rsquo;ll say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;ll be fine. I know you\u0026rsquo;re frustrated at the moment, but you\u0026rsquo;ll be fine because you\u0026rsquo;ve got the drive.\u0026rdquo; You really do have to be somewhat driven.\nIt took me a while to get used to those ideas. Something I want to share is that being a feminist and being a woman makes a difference to how you look at this. Words like \u0026ldquo;driven\u0026rdquo; are not good women\u0026rsquo;s words. They\u0026rsquo;re words we don\u0026rsquo;t like. I always say that you never hear \u0026ldquo;ambitious\u0026rdquo; and \u0026ldquo;woman\u0026rdquo; in the same sentence when it\u0026rsquo;s meant as a compliment.\nOften, you\u0026rsquo;ll see stereotypes on television of successful women who are nearly always unhappy or whom no one likes. There aren\u0026rsquo;t many positive portrayals. I reject that view and the way it\u0026rsquo;s portrayed, but it\u0026rsquo;s still around. The Devil Wears Prada is a great example: a hugely successful woman is portrayed in an atrocious way in that movie. That\u0026rsquo;s commonly the way it is.\nYou don\u0026rsquo;t always get rewarded for those things, but the qualities that make people successful are certain driven qualities. Those people continually look for ways to make themselves better. They think of different things, put extra things in and do extra ahead of time.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve had circumstances in which people wanted to be leaders. To use a school scenario, because it\u0026rsquo;s easiest for me to talk about, a teacher would suddenly say to me one day, \u0026ldquo;I want to go for this coordinator\u0026rsquo;s job,\u0026rdquo; but they would have done nothing extra except teach. As I said before, there\u0026rsquo;s nothing wrong with that, but they weren\u0026rsquo;t on one extra committee. They didn\u0026rsquo;t help out in PE when we had sports events. They were never there a minute longer: they drove into the car park at the last minute so they wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be late for the start of class, and they left as soon as they could. Then, all of a sudden, they\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;I want to be a leader,\u0026rdquo; and I\u0026rsquo;d think, \u0026ldquo;Really?\u0026rdquo;\nThe people who are successful have already done a heap of those extra things well ahead of time. They\u0026rsquo;re not the ones who sit around and wait for things to come. When you go for a leadership position, you\u0026rsquo;ve already done a whole lot of things you can talk about when they ask, \u0026ldquo;How do you inspire people? How do you motivate them?\u0026rdquo; You can talk about running an event or, to use education examples, running the fete for the school or a sports day, and how you got people on side. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t done those things, how are you going to talk about how you do them? The people who show those qualities and become successful nearly always have that type of personality.\nI did one of the Myers-Briggs tests. It\u0026rsquo;s one of those personality tests you can do. There are serious arguments that it\u0026rsquo;s not terribly valid, but if I do any of those kinds of tests, it will say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re a leader.\u0026rdquo; I remember doing one of them once, and it said, \u0026ldquo;It doesn\u0026rsquo;t matter what background you\u0026rsquo;ve got. You won\u0026rsquo;t be happy unless you\u0026rsquo;re a leader, so just get on with it.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s true for me.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s interesting because we know each other from Toastmasters, and this year I\u0026rsquo;ve picked up the president\u0026rsquo;s role, something I\u0026rsquo;d chosen never to do before. I\u0026rsquo;m loving it because it\u0026rsquo;s a leadership role. I was naturally attracted to that kind of thing. The people who become leaders are the ones who go out of their way.\nI had a client recently who hasn\u0026rsquo;t a minute of time. She\u0026rsquo;s in one of the Big Four professional services companies and is working her way up. They don\u0026rsquo;t get paid a lot in the early phases. She was meeting me on a weekend to get coaching in public speaking, and she was obviously scraping together a bit of money to do that. That\u0026rsquo;s the sort of person who\u0026rsquo;s going to achieve, not the one who waits for their organisation to pay for it or recommend someone. She wanted to do it, so she sought it out herself and got it happening. People who show that sort of initiative are the ones who become successful and become leaders.\nPeople say it\u0026rsquo;s luck sometimes, but it isn\u0026rsquo;t really. It\u0026rsquo;s usually hard work, being ready to take chances, putting yourself out there and seeking things. You\u0026rsquo;re doing this podcast and probably aren\u0026rsquo;t making lots of money out of it, is my guess. You\u0026rsquo;re choosing to do extra things. That\u0026rsquo;s what people choose to do.\nJames: That was a really amazing answer. There are so many things to dive into. I definitely agree with what you\u0026rsquo;re saying about going for a role. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to get put into a role and then become the thing once you\u0026rsquo;ve been given the opportunity, rather than being ready for the opportunity first.\nOne example of how I think about it is a soccer team, or any sports team. You get into the team once you\u0026rsquo;re good enough to be in the team. You don\u0026rsquo;t get put into the team when you\u0026rsquo;re not ready and then get expected to perform.\nWendy: The skills that might make you captain of a team aren\u0026rsquo;t necessarily the same ones that would get you into the team. The things that get you onto the team are the technical skills associated with playing the sport, but what will get you into the captain\u0026rsquo;s role will be leadership skills.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the same, and a piece of advice that I would give, particularly the higher you go: the things that make you good at the first job, or get you a job at a certain level, aren\u0026rsquo;t what will get you promoted. If you think about it, the next-level skills are different. You need opportunities to learn them, take chances and make mistakes so that you can talk about those experiences.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s that whole distinction between hard skills and soft skills. Can you do an Excel spreadsheet? Can you program this thing? Then there\u0026rsquo;s the other stuff: can you get the team to finish this project on time and make it a good project? Those soft skills are so important.\nYou were talking about leadership and drive. Is that something you\u0026rsquo;ve always had throughout your career? With leadership in particular, have you grown your abilities and interests in that area as your career has gone on?\nWendy: I think I did have it, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t realise it early on. I was a contract teacher first, and I wanted to get permanency. In order to get permanency, you had to do a lot more than just be your average teacher.\nMy teaching background is home economics, so it\u0026rsquo;s not considered the most powerful subject in the school. You can hide at the back. Most people who go to a school in Australia know that the home economics area, starting with tech studies, is at the back of the school. The front of the school is all about power. If you look at the classrooms closest to the front office area, that\u0026rsquo;s where maths is taught.\nHow far out you are in the school says something about you. It\u0026rsquo;s the same with any office set-up, by the way: how physically close you are to the boss says something about you. The further away you are, the less powerful you are. Home economics was way out there, and everyone forgot about it or didn\u0026rsquo;t think it was terribly important. I had to go out and about immediately, make myself known to the principal and be seen to be contributing and doing things.\nLooking back on it, when we were being taught about home economics teaching, they talked about many of these things. I realise now that those were actually leadership teachings. They would talk to us, and we\u0026rsquo;d have to write papers about scenarios such as being called into the principal\u0026rsquo;s office and being told that no student beyond Year 8 had to do home economics. How were you going to change his mind? How were you going to influence him to think something different? That was part of what we were taught.\nAs a casual or contract teacher, I was always busy proving my worth and being visible. I thought I was doing that only because I had to get a permanent job. When I became permanent, I was sent to Port Augusta. That was part of the deal. The principal took me off probation, and I remember the day he signed off to say I was a good enough teacher to become permanent. Frankly, once you\u0026rsquo;re permanent, you can almost never be sacked, so it\u0026rsquo;s a big deal in any education department in Australia.\nHe asked me when I was going to go for promotion. That was the long and short of it, because he said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re ambitious, of course.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d never been so offended in my life. I said, \u0026ldquo;I am not!\u0026rdquo; I was so angry because \u0026ldquo;ambitious\u0026rdquo; wasn\u0026rsquo;t a compliment. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t a good woman\u0026rsquo;s word. He had a hearty laugh and thought, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re young.\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;Actually, you are. When you get your head around that, come back and talk to me.\u0026rdquo; I flounced off.\nIt was certainly later that I realised he\u0026rsquo;d picked something up. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t until I came to terms with it that I realised I was the sort of person who, once I\u0026rsquo;d mastered something, needed to do more. I had to get more involved. I was interested, motivated and gung-ho about that type of thing.\nI had those qualities from early on and started going for jobs early. I also thought about going outside the education department. When I did leave the education department, it shocked lots of people because most people don\u0026rsquo;t leave; they stay in the education department forever. I thought, \u0026ldquo;I want to go and try something else.\u0026rdquo; It was brave and courageous to go into a different kind of employment where you weren\u0026rsquo;t permanent anymore and could get the sack.\nThat drive was definitely always there for me, but I didn\u0026rsquo;t think about it for a while when I was going up the ladder. Mine was a traditional ladder career: I was a teacher, then a coordinator, an assistant principal, a deputy principal and a principal. It was straight up a ladder.\nWhen I was a deputy principal, I originally thought, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t think I want to be a principal.\u0026rdquo; The deputy principal\u0026rsquo;s role was highly organisational, including doing the timetable, and I was very good at that sort of thing. I thought I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to make the next move. Through a fluke of circumstance, my boss got another job at about the time I started thinking about giving that principal step a try. She went off to another job, and I got an acting role. Once I was in there and became comfortable in the role, I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m made for this job.\u0026rdquo;\nThe question of comfort is related to how high up you go. When I moved up to a deputy role, I was still teaching about 85 per cent of the time, so I was in the classroom a lot. I was doing other things, such as the timetable, organising year levels and holding a leadership role in the organisation. The next step up to principal is like moving into a CEO role: you go out of doing and start thinking.\nYou start thinking about where the organisation is going to be in five years, and how to position your school so it can beat the school up the road and be better than it. It\u0026rsquo;s hard at first because, when you\u0026rsquo;re doing task-focused jobs like a timetable or finishing a financial report, it\u0026rsquo;s done, you\u0026rsquo;ve presented it and you can tick it off. When you\u0026rsquo;re developing a vision, driving a school or an organisation, and bringing people on board, it\u0026rsquo;s not quite so obvious when you\u0026rsquo;ve achieved something. Thinking differently is a challenge.\nThese jumps aren\u0026rsquo;t even jumps on a career ladder. If you think about the organisation you\u0026rsquo;re in, the first step up is usually a team leader role. You know the expertise of the people in the team because you\u0026rsquo;ve done the job. You\u0026rsquo;re supervising people and know when they are or aren\u0026rsquo;t doing their job because it\u0026rsquo;s a job you\u0026rsquo;ve done.\nThen you go up a couple of levels and get to a stage where you start supervising people whose jobs you haven\u0026rsquo;t done. If they were away, you couldn\u0026rsquo;t step in and do their work. That\u0026rsquo;s a bigger step up. Then there\u0026rsquo;s a step up to a stage where you don\u0026rsquo;t really understand people\u0026rsquo;s roles, which is tricky.\nFor example, when I was at SATAC, I supervised serious software developers while we were doing bespoke software development. I\u0026rsquo;m a home economics teacher by trade. Here I was overseeing a huge software development project, and it was bespoke. We weren\u0026rsquo;t even implementing something off the shelf; we were making our own. There are leaps that are much more significant than the little steps at first. Sometimes you move into a very different world.\nJames: How do you learn those things when you\u0026rsquo;re going into these roles? That\u0026rsquo;s a great example: you\u0026rsquo;re in the CEO role, running this software project, but don\u0026rsquo;t have the background at all. What steps are you taking at those times?\nWendy: It depends on the level. Graduates are obviously your major market, so they would be much earlier in their careers than people like me. Early on, you can usually see that you need to have a position description for a job at the levels above. One important thing is to look at that job and person specification, or whatever the organisation calls it, for the next level and maybe the one after that. Look at what it says in terms of the jobs you have to do, but also the words used to describe them.\nThey move from very task-focused words to higher-level ones. First they might talk about supervising, overseeing or managing something. The higher you go, the more they start using terms such as \u0026ldquo;drive\u0026rdquo;, \u0026ldquo;take full accountability for\u0026rdquo; and \u0026ldquo;assume responsibility\u0026rdquo;. That\u0026rsquo;s the step. It isn\u0026rsquo;t just about skills. The higher you are, the more the buck stops with you. Taking accountability means that you\u0026rsquo;ve got responsibility for it. Even though I can say, \u0026ldquo;I haven\u0026rsquo;t got a software background,\u0026rdquo; if it falls over, the bottom line is that it\u0026rsquo;s my job. I have to take responsibility and accountability for it.\nOne thing I did that is important to raise is that I worked out that this change was happening during my five years at SATAC. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t very much an IT-heavy role, but it became one. We were moving in this direction and suddenly received a lot of money to manage a project, and I\u0026rsquo;d never managed anything like it. One staff member, who was a key team member, had just finished his master\u0026rsquo;s in project management. I asked him, \u0026ldquo;Do you think I need to get a qualification in project management?\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;d already done a master\u0026rsquo;s by that stage. He said, \u0026ldquo;I think it\u0026rsquo;s time you do. Actually, we want to talk to you about it because you\u0026rsquo;re not the only one who needs it now.\u0026rdquo;\nA small group of staff ended up doing a graduate diploma in project management, which I organised through the workplace. It\u0026rsquo;s important to know when you have to upskill. There are a variety of ways to learn those things. Looking at what a person does at the next level up and whether you can do it is important.\nBigger organisations are usually much better at having well-developed person specifications and things like that. For example, when I ran SATAC, my staff were employed by the University of Adelaide. If someone wanted to be reclassified from one position to another because their job had become bigger, there was background information you could look at. It would say, \u0026ldquo;At Level 4, this is what you\u0026rsquo;ve been doing and these were your responsibilities. At Level 5, you\u0026rsquo;ll need to do these things. Can you do them?\u0026rdquo; It was very clear. I\u0026rsquo;d go through those with staff and say, \u0026ldquo;See the different words here? These are different levels of responsibility.\u0026rdquo;\nThe other thing I want to highlight, once again about women in leadership and for the women who listen to this, though not only the women, is not to get what I call women\u0026rsquo;s ghetto jobs if you\u0026rsquo;re a career person. Real leadership roles have two critical things: you\u0026rsquo;re responsible for staff and you\u0026rsquo;re responsible for money. If a job doesn\u0026rsquo;t have those things, it\u0026rsquo;s questionable whether it\u0026rsquo;s a real leadership role.\nFor example, when I was in the education system in South Australia, I could have gone from my principal-level job, where I had 100 staff and a really big budget. I was responsible for the curriculum and students\u0026rsquo; outcomes, the facilities, IT, and I was responsible to a board. I could have moved to another job within the education department where I got the same money, or perhaps a little more, but I\u0026rsquo;d be doing my own typing with no staff and no money. Those are what I call women\u0026rsquo;s ghetto jobs.\nWomen often get moved into those. No one necessarily sits around and does it with some evil intent, but you can easily find yourself moved into one. They\u0026rsquo;re not real leadership roles because the tough stuff is people, and the next hard thing is money. That\u0026rsquo;s where real leadership roles are. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t got those, I question whether it is a leadership role.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s great advice. At some level, you have to be a little strategic about what roles you go for and get into, so you can prepare yourself to continue down that path.\nWendy: That\u0026rsquo;s very true. I never wanted to be a home economics coordinator. This was when I was a teacher, and I kept saying I wasn\u0026rsquo;t going to do that job. I ended up doing it for various reasons, but not for long. That did matter, because I\u0026rsquo;d kept wanting to go into another coordinator\u0026rsquo;s job that didn\u0026rsquo;t involve supervising staff.\nIt was a really tough time. I had a hard group of staff to work with and all sorts of issues in that school, but I learnt a lot. I\u0026rsquo;m glad I did it because then I realised how damn hard staff were to lead. I\u0026rsquo;d been a bit naive before that. I thought I\u0026rsquo;d be nice to them and they\u0026rsquo;d be nice to me. I was young and naive, and it doesn\u0026rsquo;t always work that way. I learnt that by doing.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re right about being strategic. You need to think about what you\u0026rsquo;re good at, because if you do what you\u0026rsquo;re good at, it won\u0026rsquo;t feel like work. If you end up in a job you really hate, when you stop and think, \u0026ldquo;Actually, I hate this job,\u0026rdquo; it\u0026rsquo;s often because it involves a skill set you don\u0026rsquo;t like.\nFor example, I\u0026rsquo;ve never liked doing finance. I make myself do it, but I really don\u0026rsquo;t like it much. For various reasons, I ended up in a job that turned into a different kind of job, and I was doing finance about 80 per cent of the time. My husband said, \u0026ldquo;You never would have chosen that job,\u0026rdquo; and I thought, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re right. I hate it,\u0026rdquo; because it was something I really didn\u0026rsquo;t like. That\u0026rsquo;s when it feels like lots of really hard work.\nJames: I agree with that. Around strategy, did you set goals and have mentors along the way? How did those sorts of things affect your direction and your ability to go where you wanted?\nWendy: I\u0026rsquo;m definitely a goal-setting kind of person. It\u0026rsquo;s the nature of who I am. I\u0026rsquo;ve always set goals and worked towards them because I\u0026rsquo;m like that. I\u0026rsquo;m also tenacious, so I don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily make things happen really quickly, but I\u0026rsquo;m a person who can work towards something in little steps over a long period. Goal-setting works quite well for me. I set goals every year and review them, often around the financial change of year, because it\u0026rsquo;s important to do.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve always looked at what I need to do, or could do, to gain extra skills for the next job. It\u0026rsquo;s interesting now because I\u0026rsquo;m in a different position as an academic and actively saying, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t want a leadership role.\u0026rdquo; It would be easy for me to end up in those. I still choose to do different things that I would once have done to put on my CV, but now I do them because I\u0026rsquo;m interested and they engage a different part of my brain.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve had a variety of formal and informal mentors in my career, and I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt an awful lot from different people. I\u0026rsquo;ve also paid a couple of coaches to coach me on different things. For example, when I was thinking of leaving DECS, the Department of Education, which was a big decision, I got a coach to help me with that transition. Part of the job was to help me work out what I wanted to transition to. It was a clear role and a clear job: we knew what she needed to help me do.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re going to pay someone, I think it\u0026rsquo;s really important to get the best out of it. She was operating as a coach rather than a mentor. The roles are quite similar, but coaching is focused on what you want to achieve.\nIn another circumstance, I was part of the principals\u0026rsquo; association here in Australia. It was a tough group of men and was all men when I started. They didn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily want a woman at the table, and I found it very hard to get along with and influence them. I went to another male principal colleague who had been involved in the past and asked him to mentor me on how I was managing myself at that table. I said, \u0026ldquo;Whatever I\u0026rsquo;m doing, it isn\u0026rsquo;t working very well,\u0026rdquo; and wanted him to help me. That worked quite well. Sometimes putting yourself outside your comfort zone around that type of thing is important.\nMentoring can be formal or informal. I\u0026rsquo;ve also always noticed things. When I was a deputy, for example, I\u0026rsquo;d watch a principal from another school and think, \u0026ldquo;That doesn\u0026rsquo;t work very well when they do that,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;They managed that really well. Look how they do that. That\u0026rsquo;s really good.\u0026rdquo; I\u0026rsquo;ve always been observant of people in that way.\nYou also learn what not to do by having mentors. They make mistakes, of course, and you can think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not going to do that because it went really badly.\u0026rdquo; You can work through that.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve also had the circumstance, which other people will have had too, where you outgrow your mentor but they don\u0026rsquo;t want to let go of you. They still want to tell you what to do. Even after I became a principal, there was one principal I\u0026rsquo;d known since my early days who still told me what to do. I remember saying to him, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re not my boss anymore,\u0026rdquo; because he\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;Why haven\u0026rsquo;t you done that yet?\u0026rdquo; Excuse me? I said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re not my boss. I chose not to. I thought about it, reflected on what you said and decided I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to do that.\u0026rdquo;\nYou can get into those circumstances. It\u0026rsquo;s good to get out of that scenario, or to call it as I did: \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re not my boss anymore. That\u0026rsquo;s not how this game is played.\u0026rdquo; You can certainly get into those circumstances as well.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great point about outgrowing your mentors. Always be aware of who you\u0026rsquo;re getting advice from and how relevant it is to your situation. My mum isn\u0026rsquo;t going to give me advice on technical things I\u0026rsquo;m doing at work. The people you take advice from have to be people whose advice means something in that area.\nWendy: You said something I\u0026rsquo;d like to follow up on. It\u0026rsquo;s important to mention that I chose a career in which I went from being a specialist to a generalist. But another career path involves a small or tight field, knowing it really well and knowing it deeply. You often get that within technical fields. That\u0026rsquo;s another career path that works for other people. They might become the top financial person in an organisation and still very much know their world in detail, with knowledge and understanding.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a slightly different career from someone like me, who moved into more of a generalist role. I like to have lots of things under my responsibility rather than being a specialist.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;ve heard that described as a T-shaped person. You have the depth, which is the specialisation, and the top of the T, which is more general. As you move into a CEO or senior role, you have to be very general because you\u0026rsquo;re looking after all these different areas. Naturally, it isn\u0026rsquo;t a specialist role. It makes things difficult if you\u0026rsquo;re really into one tiny area when you want to take over and lead the whole organisation.\nWendy: That\u0026rsquo;s right, and you can lack those broader skills. It can be tricky to move from a role such as chief information officer into a CEO role, because you\u0026rsquo;re moving from an area of strong expertise into a broad role. Not everyone makes that transition very well.\nJames: When is it too early to get a mentor, or when is the right time to start? I know you\u0026rsquo;re a career coach and mentor on some level. How early would you say is too early, or is there a right time?\nWendy: I don\u0026rsquo;t think there\u0026rsquo;s ever really a time that\u0026rsquo;s too early. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether I always would have considered them mentors; that depends on whether you would call them that. I learnt a lot from people I started teaching with very early. Some of them were senior people who managed really difficult classes, which we certainly had at Port Augusta. I learnt a lot from watching other people\u0026rsquo;s teaching practices, hearing them talk about them and seeing the things they did really well. They wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have been called mentors, but essentially they were.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also tied up with whether you formally have a mentor. Different organisations sometimes have a process where you have a mentor, or you seek out someone you want to learn from. If you\u0026rsquo;re seeking a mentor, it\u0026rsquo;s usually because you\u0026rsquo;re looking for a promotion at some stage. You are declaring that by seeking out a mentor. There\u0026rsquo;s nothing wrong with that, but you need to be clear that it is what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t think there is a time that\u0026rsquo;s too early. These things often happen naturally.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s good.\n← Back to episode 2\n","date":"6 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/2-on-career-progression-and-leadership-with-former-satac-ceo-wendy-teasdale-smith/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 2\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Career Progression and Leadership with Former SATAC CEO, Wendy Teasdale-Smith","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":"← Back to episode 3\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nIntro # James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. We\u0026rsquo;re all about providing resources and lessons for graduates so they can have a successful and fulfilling career. On today\u0026rsquo;s episode, I speak to someone who is a really funny guy and has a lot of experience speaking to people who operate at a very high level.\nIn this episode, you\u0026rsquo;re going to hear me laugh quite a lot, but you\u0026rsquo;re also going to hear some great insights. We speak about so many things, from imposter syndrome and how we deal with situations where we feel like we don\u0026rsquo;t deserve to be there, to how we deal with emotions.\nHow can we deal with unpleasant things that happen in the office? How can we deal with roadblocks that might be keeping us down? How can we deal with situations that seem to keep reappearing in our lives? Today\u0026rsquo;s episode is a little bit spiritual in some ways, and it is certainly one that I really enjoyed recording.\nI feel it has so many deep lessons if we can truly receive what is in this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in today, and I hope you enjoy it.\nHello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today\u0026rsquo;s guest is a sales coach turned behavioural psychologist. He coaches people on how to sell, how to speak and how to ask better questions. He\u0026rsquo;s written books such as Don\u0026rsquo;t Be a Dick and More Sales, More Profit. Please welcome to the show today the mindset master, Darren Fleming.\nDarren: G\u0026rsquo;day, James. How are you doing?\nJames: Welcome to the show, Darren. It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have you here, mate. You\u0026rsquo;re someone who\u0026rsquo;s had a fantastic career, gone to many different places and explored many different avenues. We can delve into the details of where you\u0026rsquo;ve been and where you\u0026rsquo;ve gone, but I want to start by asking you this:\nDid Darren expect to be a performance coach? # James: Did you expect to be where you are when you first started university?\nDarren: Did I expect to be here? No. Did I want to be? Absolutely. I work with the C-suite. I coach them. Before COVID, I trained salespeople right around the world. Then COVID happened. Did I expect to be here? I hoped like hell I would, but I certainly wanted to be.\nJames: Tell us a bit about your career story in general. You\u0026rsquo;re a coach, and you just mentioned coaching the C-suite and doing things like sales and mindset. Where did your career start?\nDarren: I left school way back in 1992. I reckon that was before you were born.\nThe prime minister at the time was Paul Keating, and he said, \u0026ldquo;This is the recession we had to have.\u0026rdquo; I entered the employment market in 1993. Unemployment was in the double digits, interest rates were about 10 per cent and the economy was in a bad way. Somehow, I got a job in one of Sydney\u0026rsquo;s top law firms.\nThey were paying me to go to uni. They paid my uni fees, I was assisting barristers in court and they were flying me around the country. Life was really good. Then one of my mentors outside the law firm said to me, \u0026ldquo;Darren, just remember: no one ever calls their lawyer and says, \u0026lsquo;Hey, I\u0026rsquo;ve had a great day. Can I tell you all about it?\u0026rsquo;\u0026rdquo;\nI stopped studying, so they sacked me. The only job I could get was selling vacuum cleaners door to door. I\u0026rsquo;m not going to say that job sucked, because that would be a terrible pun, but it was not a lot of fun. I did that for 12 months, then graduated and did two years of telemarketing, followed by three years of telephone debt collecting. I have had all of the good jobs.\nAlong the way, I was a rep for multinational companies, with multimillion-dollar budgets, reporting to the overseas sales office. I was working at a company in Melbourne called Alfa Laval. The CEO\u0026rsquo;s job was to turn the company around: either start making money or wind the company up and send the money back to Kolding in Denmark.\nHe\u0026rsquo;d been there for 12 months or so and brought everyone in for a conversation about what had happened. He\u0026rsquo;d got rid of underperforming people and products, and somehow I was still there. He stood at the front of the room and started droning on about what he planned to do for the next five years.\nI looked at him and thought, \u0026ldquo;You are awesome at what you do, but you suck at selling it to me.\u0026rdquo; As a mature-age student, I went back to uni, got myself a degree in psychology and combined it with what I knew about thinking, speaking and selling. Hopefully, when the borders open again, I\u0026rsquo;ll get to travel the world again and teach clever people how to communicate, how to sell and how to sort their mindset out.\nI left school in 1992 and it\u0026rsquo;s 2021, so that\u0026rsquo;s almost 30 years. You\u0026rsquo;ll be this age one day too.\nJames: You\u0026rsquo;re spot on there, and I think it\u0026rsquo;s fantastic. It\u0026rsquo;s fascinating to see how your career has transitioned over time. You\u0026rsquo;ve been able to go really deep into multiple areas, and they\u0026rsquo;re all intertwined to create this really awesome value.\nDarren: There\u0026rsquo;s a great Steve Jobs commencement speech. I think he gave it in 2005. Have you seen it?\nJames: I think I\u0026rsquo;ve seen snippets of it.\nDarren: I think it was for Harvard, Yale or one of them. He talks about how he dropped out of school and went off and did dumb things. Thirty years later, when he produced the first computer, it had beautiful graphics in it, which literally changed the world of computing because you could now do world-changing things on the computer. That happened because he went to a calligraphy class at Reed College after he dropped out of his degree, and it stuck with him.\nMy journey has been everywhere. I didn\u0026rsquo;t think selling vacuum cleaners door to door, telemarketing or telephone debt collecting would become one of the mainstays and strengths of my practice. But it has, because I\u0026rsquo;ve been there and done it. It gives me street cred. I draw on what I learnt in those times and share it with my clients for a fair commercial exchange.\nJames: I think that is really cool. It\u0026rsquo;s great to hear that you started at a law firm, went to selling vacuum cleaners and got to where you are today. There\u0026rsquo;s a very stark difference, and it definitely opens your eyes to what you can achieve.\nDarren: I went from getting respect at one of Sydney\u0026rsquo;s top law firms—a boutique but very well-placed firm—to selling vacuum cleaners. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t exist anymore. That was humbling, I think they call it in retrospect. I don\u0026rsquo;t think it was at the time.\nJames: A lot of what you do now is solo or self-employed. What was the shift like from being employed and working in sales, with the board meetings and things like that, to going out on your own, finding your own clients and managing your own business? What led you to decide to do that?\nDarren: What was it like? Long. What was it like? Hard. It\u0026rsquo;s character-building. I always wanted to do what I do now, but the reality is that when you graduate from high school at 18 or 19, no one wants to employ an 18- or 19-year-old to teach them the lessons of life. No one wants that shit. Even when you graduate from uni at 22 or 23, you know squat. You\u0026rsquo;ve got a piece of paper. Whoop-de-do. Give me 20 years in the workplace, then I\u0026rsquo;ll listen to you.\nI went out on my own in June 2011, but I\u0026rsquo;d had my practice for a number of years before that. I would work at my day job during the day. My last job was at the Australian Bureau of Statistics. I used to count the number of people who went to libraries, art galleries and museums. Don\u0026rsquo;t fall asleep. It was a lot more exciting than it sounds because we had to count archives as well. Bugger me, that was a boring job, but it was a great place for a divorce.\nI worked full-time and worked on my practice at night. Then I went from full-time down to, I think, about 92 per cent FTE. My wife and I both worked long days. Under the guise of having one day a week off, we would look after the children because, back in the day, we were paying more for childcare than for our mortgage. We\u0026rsquo;d bought a house in the suburbs, and childcare was $1,200 a fortnight or a month for two kids. I think it was a fortnight—a stupid amount of money.\nWe worked really long days. I would run AdWords, people would send me enquiries and I\u0026rsquo;d talk to them. On Monday, I\u0026rsquo;d go to work at the ABS and have to write an article on something like the number of people using libraries across regional Victoria. Blow-your-brains-out boring.\nAt four o\u0026rsquo;clock, I would leave. I was on the bottom rung. I\u0026rsquo;d go to the airport, get on a plane and fly to Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne or wherever, and stay in a really swish hotel. I was even allowed to have room service or breakfast in the restaurant. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Holy moly, where am I?\u0026rdquo;\nI would spend the next day with the CEO of some company, telling him what I knew. He—or she—would make plenty of notes and say, \u0026ldquo;Darren, I\u0026rsquo;ll do this, I\u0026rsquo;ll do this and I\u0026rsquo;ll do this.\u0026rdquo; Then I\u0026rsquo;d get back on a plane, fly to Adelaide, and go to work at the Bureau of Statistics on Wednesday morning. They\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;Now, Darren, in this article about people visiting the library, you\u0026rsquo;ve got your commas in the wrong spot.\u0026rdquo; That was my life for about 18 months.\nJames: Wow.\nDarren: How does this do your head in? Talk about imposter syndrome. At work, you\u0026rsquo;re being treated like a numpty, someone who doesn\u0026rsquo;t know squat: \u0026ldquo;You put the comma in the wrong spot. You don\u0026rsquo;t know how to analyse numbers.\u0026rdquo; I probably didn\u0026rsquo;t really care. Back in the day, I think I was on $70,000 a year when I left there.\nThen I would go on a plane, stay in a hotel and have a CEO listen to me. I\u0026rsquo;d sit there thinking, \u0026ldquo;Holy moly, what if I don\u0026rsquo;t know what I\u0026rsquo;m doing? Oh, shit.\u0026rdquo;\nWhat I\u0026rsquo;ve found over the last 10 or 12 years—however long I\u0026rsquo;ve been doing what I\u0026rsquo;ve been doing—is that everybody feels and thinks that. Outside of physics, chemistry and biology, everything is made up. Literally everything is made up.\nWhy do we drive on the left-hand side of the road? Someone in the past decided we would. Why do we have a prime minister, not a president? A bunch of old white men sat around and decided. It\u0026rsquo;s all made up. It\u0026rsquo;s all bullshit. The laws that govern our country are made up. There\u0026rsquo;s no divine thing coming down. They\u0026rsquo;re all made up.\nYou go somewhere and think, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t know what to do.\u0026rdquo; The reality is that you don\u0026rsquo;t realise everyone else is thinking that too. I do a lot of public-speaking and presentation-skills training, from frontline staff right up to the executive team.\nI know, because I have one-on-one conversations with them, that they\u0026rsquo;re all sitting around the table thinking, \u0026ldquo;I wish I was as good as that person. I like the way she speaks. Man, she\u0026rsquo;s awesome when she stands up and speaks. I wish I could be as good as that.\u0026rdquo;\nEvery person is saying that about everybody else, while we\u0026rsquo;re sitting there thinking, \u0026ldquo;Oh my goodness, I\u0026rsquo;m no good.\u0026rdquo; Everyone wants to be as good as you, but because you\u0026rsquo;re on the inside looking out, you don\u0026rsquo;t see that. Sometimes we\u0026rsquo;re too close to ourselves to see how good—or not—we are.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why we have people who are absolutely useless—you may see some of them in our federal parliament—who think they know what they\u0026rsquo;re doing, and other people who are incredibly amazing at what they do, scientists for argument\u0026rsquo;s sake, holding back and saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not quite sure.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;re not always in the best position to judge what you need to do or how good you are.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s very true. Someone described that as the spotlight effect: you think everyone\u0026rsquo;s watching what you\u0026rsquo;re doing all the time and paying all this attention to you. Everyone thinks that, so everyone is out there thinking everyone is paying attention to them. In reality, no one is really thinking about what you\u0026rsquo;re doing.\nDarren: I\u0026rsquo;ve got four teenage kids, and they think everyone\u0026rsquo;s watching them: \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t wear that to school because everyone will see it.\u0026rdquo; Everyone thinks the world revolves around them, but it doesn\u0026rsquo;t. I\u0026rsquo;m still going to have on my tombstone, \u0026ldquo;Who will the world revolve around now?\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s hilarious. Public speaking has been a cornerstone of a lot of your life. You\u0026rsquo;ve been involved in it to some degree for a long time. When did you start, and how has it shaped your career and allowed you to get where you are today?\nDarren: In 1992, when I was in year 12, I was going to John Therry Catholic High School in Campbelltown, Sydney. It used to be out in the boondocks; now it\u0026rsquo;s almost in the city. My maths teacher was also the religion coordinator. He said, \u0026ldquo;Darren, at the end-of-school-year Mass, you will be doing a reading.\u0026rdquo;\nI said, \u0026ldquo;No, I\u0026rsquo;m not, Mr Price. I\u0026rsquo;m not doing it.\u0026rdquo;\nHe said, \u0026ldquo;Yes, you are.\u0026rdquo;\nI ended up doing it. It was probably only 200 words or something I had to read out, but I was shitting myself about it. I walked up on stage and put it down on the altar. I kid you not, you could just about hear the bones in my legs shaking. I was that nervous. I was holding on to the altar, the lectern or whatever they call it in church, and I mumbled out what I was reading.\nI got to the end and said, \u0026ldquo;Please stand.\u0026rdquo; Three hundred people stood up, and I thought, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God. They\u0026rsquo;re listening to me.\u0026rdquo;\nAt school, I was the punching bag. I didn\u0026rsquo;t have many friends and wasn\u0026rsquo;t one of the cool kids. I went through the responsory: I would say something and they would chant back. I might have been on stage for three or four minutes, but by the end, I knew where I wanted to spend my life. I wanted to spend my life on the stage. I was shit-scared of speaking, but I knew the person on the stage had the power.\nHow has that changed my life? I was the kid at school who didn\u0026rsquo;t have many friends or much confidence, but I set about learning public speaking. One of the greatest things you can do is learn to speak in public, because you can have the greatest ideas, but if you can\u0026rsquo;t share them, they\u0026rsquo;re going nowhere. Look at that nutcase Barnaby Joyce: not a thing between the ears, but he\u0026rsquo;s got the platform to speak, and now he\u0026rsquo;s the current acting prime minister. God help us all.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s hilarious. You coach people in public speaking, and it\u0026rsquo;s definitely intertwined with what you do. What common tips do you give, and what common mistakes do you see that people can fix by doing X, Y and Z?\nDarren: A common tip is to have fun. It\u0026rsquo;s a lot of fun being at the front of the room. You may not think that, but it actually is.\nA second common tip, which I\u0026rsquo;ve been giving out a lot more of late, is that I believe everything in life is happening perfectly right now for you to progress to the next game in life. I don\u0026rsquo;t know what video games are like these days, but when I was a kid, I used to plug in a cassette. You wouldn\u0026rsquo;t even know what a cassette is, would you? Bloody hell.\nYou\u0026rsquo;d get your computer, which was just a keypad, and plug it into your TV. You\u0026rsquo;d play the game and go through it. I remember one we had that involved hunting of some sort. You had to dodge the spears. This was the 1980s, when the natives threw them at you—imagine the sort of shit I had to grow up with. You\u0026rsquo;d run forwards and all these spears kept coming at you.\nIf you got past that level, you went to the next level and ran up the side of a pyramid while they rolled boulders down. You had to go left and right. If you died in that second level, you went back to the start of that level. You didn\u0026rsquo;t have to go back through the spears; you only had to go through the boulders. You\u0026rsquo;d get through the boulders, then you had the snakes. That\u0026rsquo;s the way it was. I assume games are still the same these days.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s the way I reckon life is. You get to a level, and at that level you need to overcome certain problems. The universe goes, \u0026ldquo;Okay, James, you want to get to the next level? Awesome. You have to be able to conquer these issues.\u0026rdquo; Everything happens for you in life.\nFor the person listening to this podcast—or quadcast, or whatever you young people call it—shit is happening in your life. It might be public speaking. It might be the crap of divorce or a relationship breakdown. Who knows what terrible stuff? Your car was stolen. Your partner cheated on you. This is shit you have to move through to get to the next stage of life. If you don\u0026rsquo;t move through it, it will continue to turn up time and time again.\nWe see this with people\u0026rsquo;s patterns. Have you ever noticed someone who constantly has financial problems? There\u0026rsquo;s just enough money to get to the end of the month, and if something else happens, you\u0026rsquo;re buggered. You can save for six months, then something suddenly goes wrong and the cost to fix it happens to be the same amount of money you\u0026rsquo;ve saved. There it goes. Why? Because there\u0026rsquo;s some shit you\u0026rsquo;ve got to work through around your money.\nHow does this relate to public speaking and presentation skills? When these events happen to us, we have an energetic rush. It might be fear, anger or excitement. We need to experience that energy. Letting it out is not the goal; experiencing it is. The way we experience it is simply to feel it.\nImagine you have to stand up and do some public speaking. Someone is speaking, you\u0026rsquo;re going up next, and you\u0026rsquo;re standing to the side thinking, \u0026ldquo;Oh my God, this is so scary.\u0026rdquo; Experience that energy. Don\u0026rsquo;t try to push it down. Don\u0026rsquo;t suppress it by thinking, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll picture them naked,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll push it down and get through.\u0026rdquo; Don\u0026rsquo;t express it by saying, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m no good at public speaking. Please bear with me.\u0026rdquo; Just experience that energy.\nOnce you\u0026rsquo;ve experienced it, the computer game goes tick: you can move to the next level. This is actually one of the secrets to life. Man, I wish I\u0026rsquo;d known this 25 years ago. Every feeling you have is there to help you move to the next level, and you must experience that energy and let it go.\nThat applies even to things you like. You have a loved one. She\u0026rsquo;s beautiful. He\u0026rsquo;s beautiful. You have to let that energy go. Just experience it. When they\u0026rsquo;re not there and you don\u0026rsquo;t feel it, that\u0026rsquo;s fine. When they come back and you feel it again, experience it.\nIf you hold on to it, by the time you get to my age, James, you turn around and look at the way love was. Today, when you meet someone and you\u0026rsquo;ve known them for two years, there\u0026rsquo;s lots of drinking, sex and partying. You get to my age, and you might just want to watch the 7.30 News and go to bed at eight o\u0026rsquo;clock on an awesome night. Then you look back and think, \u0026ldquo;It was a lot more fun back then. Love is different. Maybe I don\u0026rsquo;t love her anymore. We\u0026rsquo;ve grown apart,\u0026rdquo; and you end up leaving.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t do that. Over 20 years, your love is going to change. It has to change. We all see those sad, pathetic individuals who are my age and still go to nightclubs until two or three in the morning every Friday and Saturday night, trying to pick up young girls. Why? Because they haven\u0026rsquo;t let go of that part of life.\nLet that energy go, and you\u0026rsquo;ll see the energy you have in a relationship when you\u0026rsquo;re my age. You think it\u0026rsquo;s good now? When you\u0026rsquo;ve been with someone you love for that length of time, oh my goodness, it\u0026rsquo;s just amazing. But you can\u0026rsquo;t see what\u0026rsquo;s coming if you\u0026rsquo;re holding on to what was. Let go of what is today so you can get what is happening tomorrow.\nJames: That was a great point about the patterns that can run our decisions and relationships. Maybe at work we\u0026rsquo;re running into the same kind of situation, where we nearly get something but talk ourselves out of it, or whatever it might be.\nI think your technique of letting go is really cool because, as you said, it\u0026rsquo;s fundamental to breaking through barriers that can arise in many different areas of life.\nDarren: In one of the earlier jobs I had, I was at a law firm for 18 months. I was at another company called All Merchandise, selling furniture and hardware. That was a really good job. I was there for about 18 months or two years. Then there was telemarketing. All these jobs lasted around 18 months or two years.\nI was talking to one of my mentors and said, \u0026ldquo;I keep picking dickheads to work for. After 18 months, I just can\u0026rsquo;t stand them.\u0026rdquo;\nHe was wise, so he stroked his beard and said, \u0026ldquo;Darren, what\u0026rsquo;s the commonality between all of those jobs?\u0026rdquo;\nI said, \u0026ldquo;They\u0026rsquo;re here, they\u0026rsquo;re in this industry and that industry.\u0026rdquo;\nHe said, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re the only commonality between each job. Something\u0026rsquo;s going wrong at each job, and it\u0026rsquo;s a similar sort of thing. It\u0026rsquo;s you.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen you realise that, you think, \u0026ldquo;That means I\u0026rsquo;m actually in control of fixing it.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard a similar analogy where someone says, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve been in five accidents this year. Everyone on the road is such a terrible driver.\u0026rdquo; But who is the terrible driver if you\u0026rsquo;re getting into that many accidents? It\u0026rsquo;s similar to what you were just saying about the commonality.\nIn terms of the letting-go stuff and realising you have that barrier, what steps did you take once you realised, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve had these different bosses and I get annoyed by all of them. Somehow the problem is something to do with me\u0026rdquo;? Did you ever work through that?\nDarren: Yes, I worked through it. I have a beautiful coach out of Sydney named Lorna Patten. I only started working with her about four years ago. Basically, she beat it into me with brutal honesty: \u0026ldquo;No, Darren, you\u0026rsquo;re the problem.\u0026rdquo;\nI\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;My ex-wife\u0026rsquo;s doing this and the kids are doing that.\u0026rdquo;\nShe\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;No, Darren, you\u0026rsquo;re the problem.\u0026rdquo;\nI\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;But don\u0026rsquo;t you see? At work, these people—\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;No, Darren, you\u0026rsquo;re the problem.\u0026rdquo;\nThroughout this 12-month coaching program, she built into me that I was the cause of everything. When you accept that, it\u0026rsquo;s a beautiful thing, because it means that if I\u0026rsquo;m causing all this shit, I can change it.\nIf you go back in the world of psychology to Freud\u0026rsquo;s days in late-1800s Vienna, Freud was the father of modern psychology. He basically had an aetiological view of personality and what\u0026rsquo;s going on today. His theory was that you are the person you are today because of what happened yesterday. The way you carry on today is because you didn\u0026rsquo;t get a hug when you were five years old: sit down, tell me all about it and let\u0026rsquo;s work through it.\nAt the same time, Adler had a teleological view of life, looking into the future. He said you\u0026rsquo;re acting the way you are today so you can be the person you want to be in the future. I don\u0026rsquo;t know whether Freud\u0026rsquo;s aetiological view or Adler\u0026rsquo;s teleological view is correct, but I reckon Adler has a great position: it gives you control. If you look at Freud, you\u0026rsquo;re a victim. If you look at Adler, you\u0026rsquo;re in control. I reckon that\u0026rsquo;s a wonderful way to view it.\nJames: I definitely think you can\u0026rsquo;t really solve a problem until you take responsibility. Once you take responsibility, you can change things.\nIf the things that happen aren\u0026rsquo;t your fault and are external, they\u0026rsquo;ll just continue to happen. Until you accept responsibility for those things, it\u0026rsquo;s difficult to be the one who decides to change them, because what\u0026rsquo;s happening is, by definition, outside your control.\nWhen you take responsibility, it\u0026rsquo;s now in your control and you can work through those things. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a great way to look at it.\nDarren: When you outsource control to other people, do you know what other people have planned for you? Not much. They don\u0026rsquo;t care about you. We humans have such a weird-arse relationship with control.\nWe try to control what we shouldn\u0026rsquo;t, and then we take responsibility for things we don\u0026rsquo;t control. Have you ever been fishing, James? Have you caught a fish?\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m not a fisherman, usually.\nDarren: I believe you have caught a fish. Say what happened. You got in the boat, went out, the person threw the pick over, and you put the hook on the rope, wire, string or whatever it\u0026rsquo;s called—twine, the line. You put the worm on it and threw it over. Then the fish bit, you reeled it in and said, \u0026ldquo;Hey, I caught a fish.\u0026rdquo;\nTo me, the defining factor was whether or not the fish bit the hook. If the fish didn\u0026rsquo;t bite the hook, you wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have caught a fish. True? That\u0026rsquo;s you trying to take credit for something you have no control over. You didn\u0026rsquo;t determine whether or not the fish bit the hook. It\u0026rsquo;s its own sentient being; it will decide whether or not it wants to bite.\nHow does this apply in the real world, particularly for salespeople or people managers? We try to control things we don\u0026rsquo;t have the right to control.\nWe, as salespeople, say, \u0026ldquo;I sold that to the customer. How can I get them to buy more?\u0026rdquo; You didn\u0026rsquo;t sell it to the customer. The customer bought it. \u0026ldquo;No, Darren, you don\u0026rsquo;t get it. I stalked him on LinkedIn for six weeks. Then I approached him. I spent three months trying to get in through the door.\n\u0026ldquo;I sent him gifts. I followed him on LinkedIn and blah, blah, blah. I put a proposal forward and they looked at it. We negotiated terms and created conditions. They signed it. I sold it to them.\u0026rdquo; Yes, all of that happened, but it was the customer who decided to buy, not the salesperson who sold. This matters because we try to control things we can\u0026rsquo;t. We can\u0026rsquo;t control other people.\nWhen we say, \u0026ldquo;How can I get them to buy more from me?\u0026rdquo;, we\u0026rsquo;re asking the wrong question. You\u0026rsquo;re better off asking, \u0026ldquo;How can I be worth buying more from?\u0026rdquo; Can you see how different that is?\nJames: Yes, definitely. There\u0026rsquo;s something similar in a book called Atomic Habits. James Clear distinguishes between a goal and a process. Let\u0026rsquo;s say you\u0026rsquo;re in sales and your goal is, \u0026ldquo;I want to sell $100,000 of this item this year.\u0026rdquo; As you were saying, that\u0026rsquo;s like wanting the fish to get on your hook a certain number of times. You can\u0026rsquo;t control that.\nWhat you can control in the fishing example is putting your line in the water a certain number of times and doing it as well as you can. The fish will decide whether to bite the hook. In the sales example, the process might be, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to call 15 to 20 people every day.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a goal you have direct control over.\nDarren: That\u0026rsquo;s true, but as someone who has spent a lot of time telemarketing, I know that straight numbers don\u0026rsquo;t work. In my last year of psychology, I had a job with My Cleaning Services selling carpet cleaning. You\u0026rsquo;d call people in the neighbourhood: \u0026ldquo;Hello, Mr Jones. We\u0026rsquo;re in the area. Do you want to buy some carpet cleaning?\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;No.\u0026rdquo; Bang.\nIn a three-hour shift, four sales was average. I would get one, maybe two. Not good if you\u0026rsquo;re in sales and need to make a budget. One Monday, I got to work and the boss came up to me. He said, \u0026ldquo;Darren, your figures have been terrible. If you can\u0026rsquo;t get them up to where they should be by the end of the week, we\u0026rsquo;ll have to let you go.\u0026rdquo;\nI was at uni, my wife-to-be was at uni and we had no money. I remember what that was like. I smiled and dialled. Over the three-hour shift, I got one sale. I came back on Tuesday, smiled and dialled for a three-hour shift, and got two sales. At least the numbers were heading in the right direction.\nI was only working three days, or three shifts, a week. Before the last session, I thought, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going in with nothing to lose, because this is my last shift.\u0026rdquo; I decided to apply one of the techniques I\u0026rsquo;d learnt in a rapport-building course. It was about being welcoming to the person on the other end of the line, so I was worth talking to.\nI simply matched their voice. I\u0026rsquo;d smile and dial, the phone would be picked up and a little old lady would say, \u0026ldquo;Oh, hello.\u0026rdquo; I instantly dropped my energy: \u0026ldquo;Hello, Mrs Smith. It\u0026rsquo;s Darren from My Cleaning Services,\u0026rdquo; and so on. I found that people bought because I was worth talking to. I met them where they were.\nIf I called Mr Jones and he answered, \u0026ldquo;Hello?\u0026rdquo;, I\u0026rsquo;d say, \u0026ldquo;Hello, Mr Jones. Darren from My Cleaning Services here,\u0026rdquo; and move down to his level. In that last shift, I got nine sales—more in one shift than I should have got in the whole week. I was allowed to come back the next week, when I got 12 and 13.\nI went from being the guy who was about to be sacked to the guy being held up as an example: \u0026ldquo;Be like him.\u0026rdquo; Why? Because I changed what I was offering. Simply hitting the numbers isn\u0026rsquo;t going to work. Instead of asking, \u0026ldquo;How can I get them to buy more carpet cleaning?\u0026rdquo;, ask, \u0026ldquo;How can I be worth buying carpet cleaning from?\u0026rdquo;\nWe try to take credit for things we don\u0026rsquo;t control: \u0026ldquo;I caught a fish.\u0026rdquo; We try to control things we have no right to control: \u0026ldquo;You buy more.\u0026rdquo; Third, we don\u0026rsquo;t control things we should. How long do you brush your teeth for? Do you brush for two minutes because that\u0026rsquo;s what the Australian Dental Association says we should do? Do you brush until the electric toothbrush vibrates and says you\u0026rsquo;ve done it for long enough, or do you brush until your teeth are clean? Do you see the difference? We\u0026rsquo;re outsourcing how long we brush our teeth.\nWhat time do you leave for work? You\u0026rsquo;re working from home, but ordinarily, do you leave at 7.30 or 7.45, whatever it happens to be, or when the alarm on your phone says, \u0026ldquo;Leave for work\u0026rdquo;? When you leave based on the alarm, you\u0026rsquo;re outsourcing control of your morning. Ordinarily, you\u0026rsquo;d do all your tasks, make your lunch, get dressed and all that jazz, keeping an eye on the clock so you leave on time. The other way is to keep working until you\u0026rsquo;re told to go. We need to take control of everything in our life; otherwise, we\u0026rsquo;re outsourcing it all.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s really cool. It goes back to what you said earlier about taking control of everything. That can be difficult, but there are all these little things. Taking control of as much as you can brings a lot of the power back to you. It means that, in the areas you want to improve, you can now go and do it.\nDarren: One of the programs I run with my clients is Radical Responsibility: how do you remove the blockages that prevent performance? Every trainer in the market—James Clear, what\u0026rsquo;s he about?\nHe\u0026rsquo;s about habit stacking. You want to get fit? Every time you go to the toilet, flush, wash your hands, go outside and do two push-ups. If you\u0026rsquo;re down there doing two, you can probably do three, four or five. Go to the toilet five times a day and you\u0026rsquo;ve done 15 or 20. Or BJ Fogg: he\u0026rsquo;s all about the smallest discernible part. You want to go to the gym tomorrow morning?\nWhy don\u0026rsquo;t you put out your gym clothes before you go to bed, so there\u0026rsquo;s less friction? What all these trainers and everybody else do, and what all the training is about, is this: you\u0026rsquo;ve got a hill in front of you that you have to get over, so let\u0026rsquo;s scaffold you to get over it. We\u0026rsquo;ll put all these systems in place so you can get over your hill.\nWe do this in business: you\u0026rsquo;ve got to put in your weekly report. We monitor people and have people managing those people, making sure they\u0026rsquo;re doing the things that support their job. You have to do all these tasks before you actually start doing your job.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re exhausted before you even get to work because of the process. Instead of scaffolding you over the hill, why don\u0026rsquo;t you just get rid of the hill? The hill isn\u0026rsquo;t there. You don\u0026rsquo;t need all that scaffolding shit. Why do we need all this scaffolding? Why do we need BJ Fogg\u0026rsquo;s smallest discernible parts? Because we have an internal resistance. How is that resistance felt? You want to go to the gym, but it\u0026rsquo;s been a long day. You feel that internal resistance: \u0026ldquo;I couldn\u0026rsquo;t be bothered.\n\u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t be stuffed. I\u0026rsquo;ll go tomorrow.\u0026rdquo; You have this feeling that you don\u0026rsquo;t really want to. If everything in life is perfect and happens for a reason, you\u0026rsquo;re experiencing this for a reason. An energy comes up in you, and you can experience that energy of, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t be arsed.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;ll feel it, then you\u0026rsquo;ll find it much easier to go because the energy inside you that was stopping you is gone.\nDoes that make sense?\nJames: It definitely does. There are some things, whether it\u0026rsquo;s getting a new guest for the podcast, editing these afterwards, reading a book every day or meditating. Meditation is a big one: it sounds amazing and you can do it for a week or two, then it slowly dies off. You get that exact feeling: \u0026ldquo;I should meditate right now,\u0026rdquo; but you never do it. If you can get over that resistance, it\u0026rsquo;s really big.\nDarren: Steven Pressfield, in his book The War of Art, talks about what he calls the resistance. It\u0026rsquo;s that feeling inside you of, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not good enough\u0026rdquo;: imposter syndrome, or the feeling that you\u0026rsquo;re not going to go through with this. He talks about how amateurs let the resistance control them, whereas professionals control the resistance and are disciplined. That\u0026rsquo;s true. I love the book and think it\u0026rsquo;s awesome, but he doesn\u0026rsquo;t tell us how to move from being an amateur to being a professional. You do that by letting the energy go.\nJames: I\u0026rsquo;m curious about letting go. Maybe you have an example of when you\u0026rsquo;ve done that, or an actual process for it, because it\u0026rsquo;s hard to describe. Feeling the energy and letting it go is quite an abstract concept. Once you\u0026rsquo;re doing it regularly, I guess you know what it\u0026rsquo;s like. Is there a technique you can put to that?\nDarren: Yes, there is. This is so simple. It is as simple as breathing air, but we make it difficult. It requires us to do the opposite of what we normally do.\nNormally, you have an energy come up. For argument\u0026rsquo;s sake, you have to edit these videos. That energy comes up and you think, \u0026ldquo;Fuck, this is really hard work\u0026rdquo;—except, of course, for this one, because you\u0026rsquo;re interviewing me.\nOr you\u0026rsquo;re at work and have to do your monthly report. You think, \u0026ldquo;That report.\u0026rdquo; Bosses know this and chase you every month for your figures. You have that job that sits in your in-tray. They used to be physical in-trays, not inboxes: a physical in-tray, and everything goes on top of it. You get to that job and push it to the bottom of the queue because every time you reach it, you get that energetic rush.\nWe do one of several things with that energetic rush. You avoid it: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do the job later. I\u0026rsquo;m going to morning tea.\u0026rdquo; You suppress it: \u0026ldquo;God, I hate that. I\u0026rsquo;m just going to do it and I\u0026rsquo;m not going to enjoy it.\u0026rdquo; Or you express it: \u0026ldquo;Why do I bloody well have to do this monthly report? It\u0026rsquo;s garbage.\u0026rdquo; All that does is let off steam so you can suppress it. Or, as we mentioned earlier, you possess it: you feel something so good that you want to hold on to it.\nFor example, something comes into your in-tray and you think, \u0026ldquo;I love doing this. I\u0026rsquo;m going to jump onto it.\u0026rdquo; We express that energy. That\u0026rsquo;s what we normally do, but it is doing something. I want you to do nothing.\nTomorrow, that thing comes onto your desk: you have to edit this webinar. You have a feeling about it. Instead of suppressing, expressing, possessing or avoiding it, just experience that feeling. Sit there. What does it feel like? Is it a weight in your stomach pushing down? Is it a sensation welling up inside you? Do you feel it in your left ear or your right ear? Do you feel it in the centre line of your big toe? Where is this energy? It\u0026rsquo;s inside you. Pay attention to it.\nIf you read any of the Buddha\u0026rsquo;s work—as though he wrote a couple of books and has a podcast you can tune into—he talks about sanskaras, which are blockages in our system that come up as sensations. All they want is to be felt. When you feel and experience them, they\u0026rsquo;re released. They\u0026rsquo;re gone, off in the wind. But when you push them down, avoid, suppress, express or hold on to them, they aren\u0026rsquo;t released and can\u0026rsquo;t be replaced with something different.\nWhen that energy comes up for something you don\u0026rsquo;t want to do, simply experience it. Is it burning? Is it running, moving or spinning? Experience it for as long as it wants to be experienced. It will eventually subside.\nOne of the immutable laws of the universe is impermanence. The Buddhist term for it is anicca. Everything rises and falls. There was a time before your birth when you did not exist. You\u0026rsquo;re on this planet for a period of time, then you\u0026rsquo;ll leave and won\u0026rsquo;t exist anymore. The same is true of the building you\u0026rsquo;re in, the computer we\u0026rsquo;re using, the country and the landmass we\u0026rsquo;re on. It rises and falls.\nJust experience that energy and it will dissipate. When it does, you\u0026rsquo;ll be in a clearer position to determine whether you actually want to edit, go to the gym or do whatever else. If you have to do it by a deadline, it won\u0026rsquo;t be a chore. It will just be something you do. It is so simple, but we make it difficult.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s very powerful. In certain areas of my life, I have that resistance to things, while in other areas I don\u0026rsquo;t. That\u0026rsquo;s where I have something I really want to do and have that desire. Letting go of a good or bad sensation and being present is life-changing.\nDarren: If you get electrocuted, it\u0026rsquo;s not the current or voltage that kills you. It\u0026rsquo;s your resistance to it. It\u0026rsquo;s the same with everything in life: your resistance kills you. Stop resisting.\nThat doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean you become a walkover and let everyone put stuff on your desk. It means you don\u0026rsquo;t resist the energy associated with it. When someone puts some shit on your desk, your guru has turned up as that shit. You\u0026rsquo;re learning a lesson from it. It has triggered something within you. Let it go and get through it. Let the energy go.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s key. Let the energy go and then decide what to do, rather than reacting. Instead of something being put on your desk and immediately getting angry or frustrated, sit with it for a bit and let it go. Then you\u0026rsquo;re in a better place to decide what to do.\nDarren: It\u0026rsquo;s important to do it in the moment. The best time is while you\u0026rsquo;re having a conversation. You\u0026rsquo;re in a meeting, your boss is ragging on you or there\u0026rsquo;s some stress. You can feel the energy coming up and flowing, and you let it go. Experience it while you\u0026rsquo;re having the conversation.\nWhat you\u0026rsquo;ll find is that there\u0026rsquo;s James back here, seeing the world going on and also noticing the experience. When you can picture James back here experiencing what\u0026rsquo;s going on and interacting with the world, you\u0026rsquo;re present to the present moment, which is what all the gurus teach. It gets rid of the sanskaras, which means you\u0026rsquo;ll get through that level in the video game and can progress to the next one. How many levels are there per video game? Who knows? It depends on how good you were in your previous one and this one.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s a great mental model. If bad things are happening—maybe in relationships, or you\u0026rsquo;re losing lots of money—it\u0026rsquo;s a great lens through which to view them. You realise this isn\u0026rsquo;t the end of the world. It\u0026rsquo;s another challenge you\u0026rsquo;re going to overcome, and then you\u0026rsquo;ll continue. It\u0026rsquo;s almost a time to upgrade.\nYou said at the start that you lost your job and then started your company on your own. Those were difficult times. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard it described as being like a catapult: the time when it goes down can be what pulls you back and lets you launch further.\nJames: Combined with these letting-go techniques, doing things from a place of calmness rather than reacting with frustration and anger can help you make better decisions. I think it\u0026rsquo;s fundamental.\nDarren: People are protesting around the country about lockdowns. All they\u0026rsquo;ve got is this energy running through them, and they think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got to go and expend this energy. I\u0026rsquo;ve got to protest because the voice in my head is telling me I\u0026rsquo;m right.\u0026rdquo; That voice in your head is not you. Don\u0026rsquo;t listen to it.\nIf they sat down for five minutes and experienced that energy, they wouldn\u0026rsquo;t want to go off and protest. Do they think Dan Andrews is going to say, \u0026ldquo;The protests are on. We\u0026rsquo;d better pull the plug on these lockdowns. We were wrong. Three hundred people are protesting, so we must be wrong\u0026rdquo;?\nEven in Western Australia, where Premier McGowan closed the border and they hadn\u0026rsquo;t had any COVID, they had anti-lockdown protesters. Why? I\u0026rsquo;ve got no idea. As he said, \u0026ldquo;Grow a brain.\u0026rdquo; This energy is running through them, they feel they have to do something with it and they don\u0026rsquo;t know they can sit there and experience it.\nIf you experience it, it will dissipate. You won\u0026rsquo;t feel it\u0026rsquo;s necessary to go and do something stupid, like protest. Then you\u0026rsquo;ll be able to put that energy and focus into something you want to do to move to the next level of the video game that is life. You can achieve an investment property or invest in shares, write a poem or do whatever is more productive for you as an individual and, therefore, probably society at large.\nJames: I definitely agree. I also wanted to ask about something you teach in your Mindset Mastery course, and I\u0026rsquo;m sure in everything you teach: self-doubt. We touched on imposter syndrome and the thoughts that can come into your head.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s say a role opens at work and it\u0026rsquo;s a promotion. You think about applying, but talk yourself out of going for it. You can talk yourself out of seeking opportunities or doing something, even though you could or should do it. What tips would you give someone thinking through those things?\nDarren: That voice in your head is not you. Don\u0026rsquo;t listen to it.\nWhat do I mean by saying the voice in your head isn\u0026rsquo;t you? It\u0026rsquo;s an evolutionary throwback from when we were amoebas—not you and me personally, but other people. Look at plants. Life started on this planet about 1.2 or 1.3 billion years ago. Plants were the first form of life, and everything in the world and universe is measured in energy.\nHow do plants get their energy? They stand in the sun: photosynthesis, light, happy days. They don\u0026rsquo;t have to do anything to get it. Somehow—I wasn\u0026rsquo;t there at the time, so I don\u0026rsquo;t know exactly—single-celled organisms turned up. They had to get energy and develop a way to remember. An amoeba would go off and eat something, subsume it into itself, then die or get sick. If it got sick, it had to remember not to eat that, and to eat the life-affirming thing over here rather than the life-denying thing over there. How did it do that?\nIt\u0026rsquo;s assumed this is where the ego comes from. The voice inside your head tells you to do things it knows will be safe. It is a trouble-predicting machine. It will find anything that could go wrong and tell you as though it will go wrong.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why, when a job comes up that you\u0026rsquo;d be perfect for, it screams at you. You may not get it, so you\u0026rsquo;re safer where you are. Don\u0026rsquo;t listen to it. That voice doesn\u0026rsquo;t have your best interests at heart.\nHave you ever been sitting on the couch, watching TV and enjoying a show, when these things called ads come on every seven and a half minutes and annoy the shit out of you? You\u0026rsquo;re sitting there in the evening without a want in the world. Everything\u0026rsquo;s happy. You\u0026rsquo;re holding hands with your loved one. You\u0026rsquo;ve had a good meal, the kitchen\u0026rsquo;s clean and life is sweet.\nThen there\u0026rsquo;s an ad for ice cream. You hadn\u0026rsquo;t thought about it, but now you think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;d be nice. There\u0026rsquo;s ice cream in the fridge. I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t mind some. I\u0026rsquo;m trying to lose weight, but it\u0026rsquo;d be nice, wouldn\u0026rsquo;t it?\u0026rdquo; You argue with yourself for 20 minutes about whether to have ice cream you weren\u0026rsquo;t even thinking about. Then you come up with excuses: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve been working hard. We\u0026rsquo;re in lockdown. I\u0026rsquo;ve done all this exercise during the week. Fuck it, I\u0026rsquo;m going to do it.\u0026rdquo;\nWhen the next ads come on, you get the ice cream. Because you\u0026rsquo;re hardcore, you sprinkle Milo on top. You sit down on the couch and start eating it, and it tastes beautiful. You get to the end, recline the chair, reach down and put the bowl on the floor.\nAbout a minute later, that voice says, \u0026ldquo;Why did you eat that ice cream? You\u0026rsquo;re trying to lose weight. What about all that exercise you did during the week?\u0026rdquo; It starts ragging on you for doing what it wanted you to do. All it wants is your attention, because that way it feels in control. Don\u0026rsquo;t listen to it. Most of the time, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t have anything useful for you.\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s the obvious question? How do you not listen to it when it\u0026rsquo;s so present? Good question. I\u0026rsquo;m glad you asked. What do you reckon the answer is?\nJames: One answer might come from what you said earlier about building scaffolding to get over the mountain. It feels like a similar situation: instead of trying to avoid these thoughts in your head, why can\u0026rsquo;t we get rid of them so they\u0026rsquo;re not there in the first place? I don\u0026rsquo;t know if that applies.\nDarren: I don\u0026rsquo;t think you\u0026rsquo;ll ever get rid of them. If you spend two or three lifetimes meditating, you might. There\u0026rsquo;s only one technique, my friend: let the energy behind them go.\nThere are three things: the body, the mind and our awareness of the two. Our awareness goes to the mind, to the voice. It goes to the voice when it feels the emotions and feelings—the sensations that are always in our body.\nYou and I are made of atoms, and atoms are made of quarks. Quantum physics tells us it\u0026rsquo;s just a little electrical impulse going backwards and forwards. It isn\u0026rsquo;t even solid. Doesn\u0026rsquo;t that do your head in? Everything in the world is made of particles and waves at the same time, yet it\u0026rsquo;s solid.\nThere are always sensations in your body, but we have a concept in psychology called habituation. You\u0026rsquo;ve been sitting down for the last half-hour or hour, and you couldn\u0026rsquo;t feel the chair until I brought it up. That sensation was always there. You can\u0026rsquo;t feel your feet in your shoes when you\u0026rsquo;re walking around until you pay attention to them. We block all these signals out.\nWhen you hear the voice saying, \u0026ldquo;Eat the ice cream,\u0026rdquo; sense in your body where the energy is. Experience it and let it go. If you do that, the voice will stop talking about ice cream. Or, if it does keep talking, you won\u0026rsquo;t have the energy behind it to get you out of the seat and invest in a diabetic coma. Does that make sense?\nJames: It definitely does. You listen to the voice and hear what it has to say, but take away the charge that can be there.\nDarren: Surrender to the energy. You\u0026rsquo;re at work and a promotion comes up. You think, \u0026ldquo;It\u0026rsquo;s another $15,000 a year. How cool is that? I\u0026rsquo;ll get a bit of travel when the borders open. It\u0026rsquo;s an exciting job. I\u0026rsquo;ll be able to use my degree. Happy days. I\u0026rsquo;m not going to be able to do it. They\u0026rsquo;ll choose someone else.\u0026rdquo;\nSearch your body for that energy and experience it. It may get more intense, or it may not. You might feel it as heat, tingling, a sinking feeling or euphoria. Whatever you feel is right for you. You\u0026rsquo;re in your body; I\u0026rsquo;m not. Once the energy has passed, you\u0026rsquo;ll be much clearer and able to see your next best step.\nWithout all those emotions running, you may determine that it isn\u0026rsquo;t worth your time to apply. If you want the job, I\u0026rsquo;ve always thought you should never apply for a job you\u0026rsquo;re qualified for—you\u0026rsquo;ll only be bored. Let them determine whether you\u0026rsquo;re qualified.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great way to look at it. Putting yourself out there is certainly great. These tips are fundamental. These days, everyone can have all the knowledge they need to do a job, but what\u0026rsquo;s becoming more important is how you deal with your emotions in situations and remove resistance to certain things. I totally agree.\nMy last question, Darren, is for our audience of graduates. What\u0026rsquo;s one piece of advice you would give someone graduating from university this year?\nDarren: Get vaccinated. As silly as that sounds, it\u0026rsquo;s actually a lot deeper. Since World War II, driven largely by the US, we\u0026rsquo;ve had the power of the individual: \u0026ldquo;My rights. I can do this. I\u0026rsquo;m going to be the top,\u0026rdquo; and so on. COVID and climate change are existential crises that affect the whole world.\nI can put on a mask, get vaccinated and go all hippie and not drive anything, but I\u0026rsquo;m not going to stop COVID or climate change by myself. We need to work together as a society. People say, \u0026ldquo;Lockdowns are bad. It\u0026rsquo;s not affecting me. My business has gone down the toilet. You\u0026rsquo;ve got to change.\u0026rdquo; They\u0026rsquo;re missing the tectonic shift happening in society. We\u0026rsquo;re moving from an individualistic society back to a collectivist society, where we rely on each other.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s a traditional Ethiopian saying: \u0026ldquo;If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s where we are now. The mask and vaccination are metaphors for what we need to do. This is about coming together.\nThe knowledge you have is great. It\u0026rsquo;s common, but it\u0026rsquo;s great. The experience you have from the life that brought you here today is uncommon and needs to be shared, as does your knowledge. Get vaccinated, if for no other reason than that we all need to get there.\nJames: I think that\u0026rsquo;s a fantastic note to finish on. Get vaccinated, everyone. Thanks so much for your time today, Darren. There were fantastic lessons in there.\nDarren: Thanks so much. Cheers, buddy.\nJames: Thanks so much for tuning in to today\u0026rsquo;s episode with Darren. As I\u0026rsquo;m sure you\u0026rsquo;ve worked out by now, he is a wealth of knowledge, and it was fantastic recording this episode with him.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;d like to connect with Darren further, you can do so via the links in the show notes or his website, darrenfleming.com. If you\u0026rsquo;re listening on a podcast platform with a comment or review system, I\u0026rsquo;d really appreciate it if you could leave us a review or comment. These reviews go a long way towards helping the podcast reach more listeners and share this knowledge with more people.\nIf you have any comments on the podcast or want to get in touch with me, my email is also in the show description. Please send me an email or message, whatever you please. If you want to check out more from the podcast, visit GraduateTheory.com, where you\u0026rsquo;ll find it all.\nPlease follow us on social media and subscribe to the show if you haven\u0026rsquo;t already. Thanks so much for listening. I\u0026rsquo;ll see you in the next episode.\n← Back to episode 3\n","date":"6 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/3-on-patterns-and-letting-go-with-behavioural-scientist-darren-fleming/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 3\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Patterns and Letting Go with Behavioural Scientist, Darren Fleming","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Joe Wehbe is the co-founder of Constant Student and the co-author of 18 and Lost, a collection of lessons about navigating the years after high school.\nOur conversation starts with the story of how Joe earned an endorsement from Seth Godin for the book. It becomes a broader discussion about networking: not as a transactional hunt for favours, but as the patient work of building genuine relationships and leaving people better off.\nEpisode takeaways # The strongest networks grow from mutual trust and a genuine interest in helping other people. Generosity does not mean saying yes to everything; good relationships still need boundaries. Opportunities often emerge long after an introduction, so relationships are best treated as long-term investments rather than immediate exchanges. University is a useful time to experiment, meet people and become comfortable with uncertainty. The episode also explores Adam Grant\u0026rsquo;s idea of givers, matchers and takers, the role of personal branding, and the urgency that comes from remembering that our time is limited.\nJoe\u0026rsquo;s links # Joe Wehbe\u0026rsquo;s website 18 and Lost Graduate Theory # https://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/linkedin\nhttps://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram\nContact Me james@graduatetheory.com\nThings discussed # 18 and Lost Akimbo, co-founded by Seth Godin Give and Take by Adam Grant Gary Vaynerchuk The Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter ","date":"5 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/1-on-networking-with-founder-and-author-joe-wehbe/","section":"Graduate Theory","summary":" Watch the conversation Graduate Theory Open YouTube ↗ Read the full transcript → Joe Wehbe is the co-founder of Constant Student and the co-author of 18 and Lost, a collection of lessons about navigating the years after high school.\n","title":"On Networking with Founder and Author, Joe Wehbe","type":"graduate-theory"},{"content":"← Back to episode 1\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker\u0026rsquo;s meaning.\nJames: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Please welcome to the show Joe Wehbe.\nJoe: Thanks very much, James. Good to be here.\nJames: It\u0026rsquo;s fantastic to have you on, mate. You\u0026rsquo;re certainly someone I look up to and someone who\u0026rsquo;s really inspired the creation of this podcast. So it\u0026rsquo;s very cool to have you on and hear your insights because you are certainly very knowledgeable.\nSeth Godin\u0026rsquo;s Endorsement # James: You\u0026rsquo;ve done a lot of things, so I\u0026rsquo;m looking forward to this. One thing I want to start with is the book that\u0026rsquo;s just come out, 18 and Lost. It\u0026rsquo;s a fantastic achievement. We can talk about the book and all that stuff, but I want to start with the blurb on the back from Seth Godin. How did you get this guy on the back? What was your process? What\u0026rsquo;s the whole story behind it? It is quite cool to have him there.\nJoe: It is very cool. I\u0026rsquo;m very lucky, but it obviously wasn\u0026rsquo;t accidental either.\nFor anyone who\u0026rsquo;s not familiar with him, Seth Godin is very prominent as a thought leader in marketing, education, the post-industrial world, careers and work. He\u0026rsquo;s written about 20 bestselling books, started a bunch of cool companies and has a very clear and meaningful message.\nSo that\u0026rsquo;s who he is, if anyone hasn\u0026rsquo;t heard of him. I did a course at the organisation he co-founded. They co-founded the altMBA, and then this other organisation, Akimbo, evolved around it, I believe. It\u0026rsquo;s a very alternative education company.\nI did the course thinking I\u0026rsquo;d meet great people, and I knew that people like him were behind it. So I figured there would be lots of relationships with this organisation beyond just learning some good stuff in the one-week course. It was called the Emerging Leaders Program.\nIf I hadn\u0026rsquo;t done it, I wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have met Liam, a mutual friend and collaborator of ours, and that\u0026rsquo;s how I met you. So there you go. In the same way, I knew we were working on the book because I cared about education going into it, and I was curious to see how they did things.\nSo it was a learning opportunity for me in that sense, to see the model they used. I knew they had so many useful people in their community. I always planned to do the course, see what it was like and then add value to their organisation where I could. I hosted catch-up calls afterwards, gave a lot of generous feedback and obviously stayed in touch with people there. In the end, I had good context at the organisation. They knew about the book, and I explained its mission and why I thought, because it was about education, that an endorsement from someone like Seth would go a long way towards helping us catalyse the book.\nAn endorsement like that doesn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily sell books. People don\u0026rsquo;t hear about it and then come and find the book, but the credibility helps a lot. It was also really nice because we did it with a group of people. That was basically the process.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t know if everyone\u0026rsquo;s now going to start doing a bunch of Akimbo courses because I\u0026rsquo;ve said that. Maybe they will. I also got very lucky because there was no guarantee. That\u0026rsquo;s why I was very strategic about it, obviously, but being genuine along the way is integral. I genuinely enjoyed it and got so much out of it.\nLike how I met you and everything again, that was one of the beautiful things that came out of that.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a super interesting story. I guess it\u0026rsquo;s one of those things where you do one thing—like that stuff you talk about with the doors, right? Doing this course opens up opportunities that maybe you didn\u0026rsquo;t expect when you first signed up.\nJoe: For sure. If I was just trying to do the whole thing of, \u0026ldquo;Hold on, I know that guy\u0026rsquo;s in that company, or they know people, and I\u0026rsquo;m only going to do it for that,\u0026rdquo; then there\u0026rsquo;s a bit of risk. If it doesn\u0026rsquo;t come off, whatever effort you put in is wasted unless you learnt something. But if you get a lot out of the experiences you pursue, and they help you meet people who can move what you care about further, that\u0026rsquo;s what I concentrate on because it\u0026rsquo;s very holistic. You get a lot out of it, not just that one thing.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s interesting. I agree, and I think that\u0026rsquo;s a good point about the genuineness of asking something like that and being involved. You joined the course because you wanted to get value, and then these kinds of things came out. It wasn\u0026rsquo;t the real reason you joined, but it was an extra effect afterwards.\nJoe: I think the whole idea is that you want to be in rooms with great people. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt. I rarely used to take up experiences like that when I was a bit younger.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not always the right time. The name of this podcast is pretty indicative of its theme. For people early in their career, maybe in the gap between finishing university and getting into the workforce, if that\u0026rsquo;s the average listener, their position is very different to mine now.\nI have specific things that are my focus, like education. I work on things related to education and careers, so it\u0026rsquo;s deliberate. But it always makes sense to be in good rooms with people who also care about that. Being able to find more people who agree and align with what you care about is always useful.\nYou just don\u0026rsquo;t know what will happen in the field three or five years later. A relationship is such a good investment, and I knew I was going to get a lot of relationships out of it. That\u0026rsquo;s what attracted me. Seth Godin was probably the moonshot, and I was very lucky he helped.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t speak to him; it was all through the organisation. In general, I got so many great relationships out of it. I knew I was going to get that for myself, but there was also the concept of adding value. If I\u0026rsquo;m in there adding value and being genuine, they\u0026rsquo;re going to get something out of me.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s mutual and reciprocal. It should always go both ways, which is a really obvious idea. Get something out of it for yourself, but also make sure they get something out of it. Leave everyone better off for having talked to you, and you will get a lot back. That\u0026rsquo;s really my approach to everything, and so far it really moves things faster.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s cool because, particularly with networking, I was thinking about this today.\nSometimes when people say, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re going to go out there and network with people,\u0026rdquo; it\u0026rsquo;s as though you\u0026rsquo;re trying to trick them into becoming friends with you so you can ask a favour and then leave them. You\u0026rsquo;re trying to climb this ladder of who you know so you can be the winner at the end.\nWhereas, when it comes from that kind of place, I think it\u0026rsquo;s easy to spot when someone\u0026rsquo;s trying to use you to get a favour and isn\u0026rsquo;t offering anything. It\u0026rsquo;s much easier to be friends with someone when they\u0026rsquo;re helping you and you\u0026rsquo;re helping each other. It\u0026rsquo;s much more natural that way.\nJoe: It really is. It\u0026rsquo;s not always easy to like networking. I listened to a podcast the other week, and the host said to his guest, \u0026ldquo;You\u0026rsquo;re the gun at networking.\u0026rdquo; The guest replied, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t call me that, because everyone hates that word. I don\u0026rsquo;t think of it that way.\u0026rdquo;\nNetworking has connotations. Different people think different things when they hear the word, but stripping it back, the fundamental idea at its core for me is that people are the ultimate resource.\nHonestly, I\u0026rsquo;ve told you that story and explained my approach of always trying to add value. But if I\u0026rsquo;m on Twitter or hear a name, I definitely think, \u0026ldquo;Damn, if I knew that person, I could do this.\u0026rdquo;\nI could get the message or the book out better. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to switch that off; it\u0026rsquo;s actually pretty human. I definitely have those thoughts. But then you start moving towards, \u0026ldquo;All right, let\u0026rsquo;s be strategic about how I could get in touch with them.\u0026rdquo;\nThen it\u0026rsquo;s, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;d have to create value for them.\u0026rdquo; You\u0026rsquo;re always reminded that you are your actions, not your thoughts. As long as you come back to the healthy way of doing it, the filter and feedback loop mean you almost don\u0026rsquo;t have a choice.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s actually really hard to get things by being transactional. A transaction is just an exchange for goods. You don\u0026rsquo;t need to love the local baker. If you give them money, they\u0026rsquo;re happy to give you bread. It\u0026rsquo;s transactional.\nIt doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be a good relationship, but it can be. People know when it\u0026rsquo;s transactional. Is Tinder transactional? Is it a hook-up, where there\u0026rsquo;s an exchange of goods, or is it genuine? You can\u0026rsquo;t ask for too much too soon in a dating interaction; you have to break it down into steps.\nSomeone isn\u0026rsquo;t ready to marry you when they first meet you. If you coldly suggest that you have this deep relationship, and they get bombarded with requests like that, you get ignored. Instead, break it down into steps and meet people where they are: \u0026ldquo;All right, what would interest someone like this right now?\u0026rdquo;\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s something simple they can say yes to? That\u0026rsquo;s opening the door. It\u0026rsquo;s easy to leverage people—and leverage can be a dirty word, like networking—to gain advantages and resources from people you have a relationship with.\nIt doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to be an exchange because you\u0026rsquo;re friends. You mentioned my real estate experience. In real estate, as in any business, people who are happy to refer clients are gold. You don\u0026rsquo;t necessarily have to pay them to refer clients: word of mouth and referral partnerships are gold.\nWhat I found was that the people who ended up giving me business were great friends, or I became great friends with them. With the people we weren\u0026rsquo;t really tight with and didn\u0026rsquo;t align with, it was never as effective. When you like someone, you also have trust with them.\nTrust is really important when you\u0026rsquo;re handing someone over. \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t need to be paid for it; just look after them.\u0026rdquo; If you make an introduction, the other person should be respectful. That\u0026rsquo;s what I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt through experience.\nUltimately, in the most productive relationships, you end up getting along really well. That\u0026rsquo;s what makes them sticky. You can ask a friend for something you can\u0026rsquo;t ask a stranger for because you have a relationship, but the online world dilutes that a little bit.\nSometimes we forget, but it all comes down to genuine relationships and genuine relationship-building.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s so cool. I think that\u0026rsquo;s a great point because, as you were saying about relationships, you\u0026rsquo;re not going to ask someone to get married on the first day. Once you get along and both like each other, you can start to ask more things and do more stuff together.\nThere are many parallels between dating and business or networking that I hadn\u0026rsquo;t realised. I think that was a great example.\nAdam Grant: 3 Kinds of People # James: One thing we spoke about before the podcast was Adam Grant\u0026rsquo;s book. You mentioned the idea that there are three types of people in networking, friendships or whatever: givers, takers and so on.\nCould you elaborate on that a bit further?\nJoe: I\u0026rsquo;d love to. The book, Give and Take by Adam Grant, aligned with many things I\u0026rsquo;ve thought and written about, which is why I loved it. He talks about givers, matchers and takers. Takers always ask, \u0026ldquo;What\u0026rsquo;s in it for me?\u0026rdquo;\nThere always has to be something obvious in it for them to be willing to help. For example, if you said to me, \u0026ldquo;Joe, come on the podcast,\u0026rdquo; and I was a taker, I\u0026rsquo;d need to see something clear in it for me: \u0026ldquo;Am I going to get more clients?\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;Am I going to get more leads or exposure? Am I going to get some of those things? All right, I\u0026rsquo;ll come on.\u0026rdquo; Takers try to take as much value as they can from you with little regard for whether it goes in the other direction. It\u0026rsquo;s, \u0026ldquo;I don\u0026rsquo;t really care about this James guy.\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;Whatever, if I can go on there and get more credibility or business clients.\u0026rdquo; Matchers, or traders, need an even exchange of value in both directions, and at roughly the same time. We\u0026rsquo;re doing some promotion for the book at the moment, and someone introduced me to a guy who has a podcast.\nI thought, \u0026ldquo;All right, can we have a conversation? This is what I care about and what I\u0026rsquo;m trying to do.\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;You can come on my podcast, but I see you have a podcast too. Maybe I can come on yours.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s a matcher: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll let you come on mine if I can come on yours.\u0026rdquo;\nI said, \u0026ldquo;Actually, my podcast is solo. I don\u0026rsquo;t do guests, unfortunately, so I won\u0026rsquo;t be able to do that.\u0026rdquo; He said, \u0026ldquo;My podcast is slowing down at the moment, so I can do it, but I\u0026rsquo;ll send you the audio to edit,\u0026rdquo; or something. I thought, \u0026ldquo;Yeah, nah, not interested.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s an example of a matcher.\nIt has to be an even exchange and mainly has to happen at that point in time. Third are givers. Givers say, \u0026ldquo;All right, I\u0026rsquo;ll come on the podcast,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll introduce you to this person,\u0026rdquo; without an obvious or tangible return.\nIf I know someone who could be an incredible guest but might not respond to you directly, I can introduce you. But what\u0026rsquo;s in that for Joe? How does James\u0026rsquo;s podcast relate to me? In the big picture, everyone\u0026rsquo;s benefit is linked to everyone else\u0026rsquo;s.\nPeople don\u0026rsquo;t really think about it. The giver probably isn\u0026rsquo;t as different from the others as we think, but it\u0026rsquo;s generally generosity that seems unattached to anything coming back, with no expectation of repayment. That doesn\u0026rsquo;t mean being completely selfless, like a doormat who lets people walk over them. There\u0026rsquo;s the selfless giver, and then there\u0026rsquo;s the pragmatic giver: \u0026ldquo;I can give this,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I can\u0026rsquo;t do a week of podcasts with you, James. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a busy week.\u0026rdquo; At the end of the day, I\u0026rsquo;ve got to protect some things. That\u0026rsquo;s the traditional concept of givers in the book.\nBut the fascinating thing is that if you expand your thinking, think long-term and think very broadly, other people\u0026rsquo;s advantages normally become your advantages too. Part of the context is that you\u0026rsquo;re a member of our community, The Constitution. The better you go, the more people can understand, \u0026ldquo;Oh wow, there are communities out there that you can tap into to bounce things off and help you get set up with a project or anything like that.\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s good, and that\u0026rsquo;s the kind of world I want to live in: one where people do that.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also very enjoyable and meaningful to contribute to someone who has direction, ambition, dreams or anything like that. It\u0026rsquo;s meaningful across the board, so I do get something out of helping someone like that.\nI know that people have felt the same way about me. The giver concept is almost a bit tricky because what probably changes is the delay, or how clearly you can relate the benefit received by the giver to the gift given by the giver.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t know if that makes sense, but I gave it my best shot. That philosophy makes all my behaviours make sense because a rising tide lifts all boats. We all have aligned interests.\nJames: For sure. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard a similar thing about giving as a business idea. Gary Vee had that book called Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook, or something like that. A lot of businesses do that, whether it\u0026rsquo;s on social media or elsewhere, where they give you free videos on YouTube or free content about a topic to develop the relationship. There\u0026rsquo;s no expectation of a return with those.\nThey\u0026rsquo;re not expecting you to donate money afterwards, but I guess they are secretly hoping that when they release something, you care about them and are invested enough in what they\u0026rsquo;re doing to buy their course or sign up for whatever it might be.\nJoe: The other thing with that comes back to dating. If you say to someone, \u0026ldquo;Would you like to go on six dates with me?\u0026rdquo; they\u0026rsquo;re thinking, \u0026ldquo;Do I want to go on six dates with this guy? I\u0026rsquo;m not sure.\u0026rdquo; But if you ask whether they want to go on one date with no expectation of a second, third or fourth, they can commit to that.\nWhat that strategy does—inbound marketing and all that sort of stuff—is what relationship-building does: it breaks things down to a small enough step that someone can commit to. If you\u0026rsquo;re trying to get in touch with a significant person in the business world, giving them a LinkedIn message or an email they can simply reply to is a great first step.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s better than having nothing and sending them a big pitch and a dump. That\u0026rsquo;s interesting to think about. Even with the people you\u0026rsquo;re talking about, I\u0026rsquo;m sure they hope people pay, but those who don\u0026rsquo;t end up paying probably still spread awareness of that person\u0026rsquo;s brand: \u0026ldquo;Hey, Seth Godin or Gary V has this free YouTube video. I\u0026rsquo;ll send it to you.\u0026rdquo;\nIf you\u0026rsquo;ve never heard of Gary Vee before, you\u0026rsquo;re now aware of him and have a relationship with him. It\u0026rsquo;s familiarity. How often do you land on a website and spend a thousand dollars with someone you\u0026rsquo;ve never heard of, on a product you\u0026rsquo;ve never heard of? Not that often. But if you\u0026rsquo;ve heard of them before, you\u0026rsquo;ve got that familiarity.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re more likely to buy from Gary Vee: \u0026ldquo;I see that guy everywhere. I\u0026rsquo;ll buy his course,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ll pay him to be my media marketing manager,\u0026rdquo; or whatever. Again, it comes back to relationships. You see someone around a lot, have a couple of touchpoints with them and build trust.\nJames: Definitely. I think that\u0026rsquo;s super cool. You can relate it to your personal brand, which is not only how you\u0026rsquo;re perceived in person or online. Maybe you have your own Instagram for business-related stuff or your own website.\nYour personal brand is also how you interact with people. What are you like when you go and watch the footy at someone\u0026rsquo;s house? This giving isn\u0026rsquo;t just for when you\u0026rsquo;re trying to network with someone, giving online advice or offering value in a business by releasing content.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s also about thinking, \u0026ldquo;This person said they were interested in coming to an event I\u0026rsquo;ve previously attended. Let\u0026rsquo;s connect them with the organiser.\u0026rdquo; Things like that can really positively impact people.\nJoe: Majorly. I believe the way you do one thing is the way you do everything, and I notice that in so many ways. I even see similarities between how people play soccer and their work ethic. A lot of the people I play with are school friends or my brothers.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s hard to switch things on and off, and very hard to do it for a long time. Even though networking can be a dirty word, it\u0026rsquo;s one I\u0026rsquo;m happy to use. Every time I think about it, I conclude that the way to do it most effectively is, at the end of the day, to become a better person.\nJames: Holistically.\nJoe: Definitely. One of the cleverest books of all time is obviously How to Win Friends and Influence People. The title makes you think, \u0026ldquo;How do you use all these dirty tricks and get your way?\u0026rdquo;\nNot to spoil the book, but its whole premise is that, unfortunately, you\u0026rsquo;ve got to be genuinely interested in people. You show interest in them without expecting something, start there, and then things can snowball because they think, \u0026ldquo;That person is interested in me.\u0026rdquo;\nIt\u0026rsquo;s funny, but it\u0026rsquo;s also relieving. You feel, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got to get in touch and advance my career,\u0026rdquo; and then realise that, the whole way along, you can just be yourself and actually be the most effective. That\u0026rsquo;s not easy, especially today.\nThere are always shiny objects dangling in our environment, so it\u0026rsquo;s not always easy. I think being reminded of that as often as possible is powerful. The general call to action is the G-word: being genuine makes things flow and feel effortless because you can just be yourself.\nJames: Totally.\nHow you do anything is how you do everything # James: I liked what you said about how you do anything being how you do everything. I\u0026rsquo;d heard that before, and I think it\u0026rsquo;s really key. I first heard it on a podcast many years ago. The guy said, \u0026ldquo;When you go to the toilet, how do you leave the bathroom when you\u0026rsquo;re finished? Do you make sure it\u0026rsquo;s cleaner than when you entered? When you wash the dishes, do you do a good job, or just do them well enough that the next person has to deal with your problem?\u0026rdquo;\nThese things aren\u0026rsquo;t just one-offs. Someone who cleans the dishes really well is probably also going to do other things in their life really well. I think that\u0026rsquo;s super important, and it\u0026rsquo;s something I now watch out for.\nEven when I\u0026rsquo;m doing menial tasks, I ask, \u0026ldquo;How am I doing this?\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s reflective of how I\u0026rsquo;m going to do things at work or complete a project. There might be little things that you think you don\u0026rsquo;t need to do: \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s fine. I\u0026rsquo;ll just skip that bit.\u0026rdquo;\nBut it\u0026rsquo;s about putting things away in the right place. When you finish a project, are you going to check it a few times before sending it off, make sure there are no spelling errors and ensure everything is in exactly the right place?\nDoing that extra one or two per cent in every little thing adds a lot to everything you do. I\u0026rsquo;m a big fan of that.\nJoe: That\u0026rsquo;s a great thought. You\u0026rsquo;ve prompted me to rethink that for myself and get better at it, so thank you. I\u0026rsquo;ll be paying attention to everything.\nJames: Obviously, you can\u0026rsquo;t think of it all the time.\nJoe: Absolutely, but it\u0026rsquo;s a very good frame. Even if someone listened to this and did that for the next day, that would be very positive. With all these positive attitudes or approaches, you think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to do more of that,\u0026rdquo; and don\u0026rsquo;t always follow through. But over time, they all sink in and add up.\nThe long-term trend is towards being better in that way. I honestly think that\u0026rsquo;s a really great attitude.\nJames: I definitely agree.\nHighlights from 18 and Lost # James: Let\u0026rsquo;s go back to your book. This is quite a unique concept. I haven\u0026rsquo;t heard of a book written like this before.\nSometimes there\u0026rsquo;s one author and a couple of people who write the foreword, so there are three authors on the front or whatever. But this isn\u0026rsquo;t that. I think you have eight different people who each wrote a section of the book. Tell us how that came about.\nJoe: Scott is my high school friend. We did nonprofit work together, and then he created his own startup, Espresso, which is a great up-and-coming Aussie company. We\u0026rsquo;ve always been interested in education, starting with our own very self-directed projects—things we chose to do ourselves.\nWe found that we learnt so much. There are great places to learn, and you get a lot out of them. We both went to uni. He loved uni; I didn\u0026rsquo;t have the best time, but you undoubtedly still learn things. I think the most effective ways to learn, especially in this day and age when you can create things more easily than ever before, are projects and choosing your own challenges.\nOur mission together is to catalyse that approach to education and make it more accessible. There are a lot of pieces to pull together, even though it\u0026rsquo;s logistically easier. The problem is that it isn\u0026rsquo;t packaged up for people. With your podcast, you have to decide to do it, find the guests and figure out how to do it.\nAt the start, you\u0026rsquo;re asking, \u0026ldquo;How do you package it up and make it easier?\u0026rdquo; That was the inspiration for the book. We care about education, so we themed it around something useful for young people leaving high school.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s a pretty big social problem. We wanted to make it a learning experience for us and the co-authors. I also wanted to learn for myself. It\u0026rsquo;s the first book I\u0026rsquo;ve published, and it will be self-published. I wanted to learn, \u0026ldquo;How do I do this self-publishing thing? What\u0026rsquo;s involved?\u0026rdquo;\nI really didn\u0026rsquo;t know. I\u0026rsquo;d been writing stuff for ages, so I thought, \u0026ldquo;This is good for me too.\u0026rdquo; We found friends—literally people we knew who we thought would be interested. We intentionally chose young people and young Australians. If I\u0026rsquo;d known you a year ago, I might have asked you, for example. Maybe in the future.\nIt was literally like that, showing that anyone can do it. 18 and Lost is about that awkward journey after leaving high school. Most people have a lot of challenges or things to think about and process, even if they get through it unscathed.\nIt seems like everyone goes through something at that time. A big problem is that we aren\u0026rsquo;t very good at ferrying people from the high school environment to the rest of the world. We let them swim across very choppy waters and see who survives.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not the kind of world I want to live in. The broader ambition was to ask what would help. We shared the stories of eight very different people, and there\u0026rsquo;s a surprise ninth as well.\nSharing all those stories lets you think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s what it was like for those people.\u0026rdquo; You can\u0026rsquo;t summarise everyone\u0026rsquo;s experience. There\u0026rsquo;s no single experience or way of doing things, but we thought giving eight or nine different examples could help. Maybe one will resonate with someone.\nOne of those stories might make them think, \u0026ldquo;I felt that way too, and it\u0026rsquo;s not just me,\u0026rdquo; because we don\u0026rsquo;t often talk about these things in depth. I wrote about leaving high school, my struggles at university, not pursuing the things I was actually interested in, trying to take a safe road and how that felt.\nI called it a six-out-of-ten life: not so bad that you make a change, but not so good that you enjoy things. You\u0026rsquo;re riding in the middle. To be honest, a lot of my family and friends wouldn\u0026rsquo;t have known that stuff until they read it because it doesn\u0026rsquo;t really come up.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s why we wanted to take a storytelling approach. Ultimately, the concept was pretty cool, and we\u0026rsquo;re proud of it. We gave everyone five weeks to write their chapter, which created the accountability to get through writing a book.\nIt reduced the workload because each person only had to deliver one chapter. They were writing their stories, which was pretty intimidating for most people. I think the group really helped with follow-through because when other people rely on you, it creates much more incentive.\nIf it\u0026rsquo;s just me on my own and I don\u0026rsquo;t do it, no one\u0026rsquo;s going to mind, as often happens with books. I\u0026rsquo;m very proud of everyone\u0026rsquo;s chapters and the writing. One thing I care about a lot is helping more people learn what they\u0026rsquo;re capable of by writing books.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a good challenge because it\u0026rsquo;s very tangible: \u0026ldquo;I did this, and I became an author.\u0026rdquo; It\u0026rsquo;s a great journey, and I encourage as many people as possible, especially young people, to take it up. We\u0026rsquo;re also trying to facilitate more people doing this sort of stuff in our work.\nJames: For sure.\nWere there any key themes among people leaving high school or uni? As you said, leaving high school is a very choppy time. You have to pick one thing to do, and almost everyone is thinking, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;ve got no idea.\u0026rdquo;\nWhat are some key themes from the book, including common problems people had and how they dealt with them?\nJoe: Great question. Towards the conclusion, I unpacked the five big themes I noticed. I\u0026rsquo;d also love to hear what readers pick up that I didn\u0026rsquo;t. One key theme was whether people were true to their intuition—what they felt they should be doing and what their real interests were at the time.\nThe authors who didn\u0026rsquo;t follow those key interests seemed to struggle on an emotional and somewhat psychological level. For example, I wanted to be a filmmaker but ended up studying psychology.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t do much film because I lacked confidence and didn\u0026rsquo;t know how to be proactive about getting experience, among many other reasons. I didn\u0026rsquo;t feel great at that time because there was a gap between what I felt I should be doing and what I was actually doing with my time.\nWhen that happens, you normally don\u0026rsquo;t feel great. In contrast, Scott realised that the best thing for him was probably to start with engineering, and he made that choice himself. I was looking for a safer path. Some stories are more like Scott\u0026rsquo;s, where people chose their own way.\nOthers are more like mine: \u0026ldquo;This is what I think I should be doing,\u0026rdquo; rather than, \u0026ldquo;What do I really want to do?\u0026rdquo; It wasn\u0026rsquo;t even the top thing I\u0026rsquo;d pick, or I picked it for the wrong reason. I picked it for an extrinsically motivated reason, meaning the motivation came from outside.\n\u0026ldquo;It will impress everyone if I\u0026rsquo;m an engineer or a psychologist. I\u0026rsquo;ll make a lot of money.\u0026rdquo; That\u0026rsquo;s extrinsic—a reward that comes from outside. Intrinsic motivation is, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m so into psychology,\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m so into engineering,\u0026rdquo; or, \u0026ldquo;I love the people I\u0026rsquo;m meeting while doing this.\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s much more intrinsically derived, so that was probably the biggest takeaway. Another of the best themes was that no one predicted what they\u0026rsquo;d be doing by the time they sat down to write the book. That includes Jordan, our oldest author.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s 27 and drew a nice graphic in the book showing all the different things he\u0026rsquo;s done. He has had the most diverse career of anyone I\u0026rsquo;ve ever seen, so he definitely didn\u0026rsquo;t predict what he\u0026rsquo;d be doing. Even Gabby, our youngest author, intended to go on a gap year last year, but COVID happened, so she started studying law. She didn\u0026rsquo;t anticipate becoming the author of a book at 18.\nThe unpredictability is nuts. I didn\u0026rsquo;t predict that I\u0026rsquo;d end up trying to do entrepreneurial projects; I left school wanting to be a filmmaker. No one had a clear idea. It\u0026rsquo;s the big lie: you pick something and think, \u0026ldquo;This is my path,\u0026rdquo; but it\u0026rsquo;s unlikely to remain your path because most people make some sort of pivot.\nMaking a pivot is probably healthy because it means you\u0026rsquo;re discovering things. You\u0026rsquo;re not growing if you aren\u0026rsquo;t discovering things you didn\u0026rsquo;t anticipate. If you can see everything ahead—when you\u0026rsquo;ll learn, the age when you\u0026rsquo;ll get a promotion—and it\u0026rsquo;s completely linear with no surprises, it feels safe.\nBut it\u0026rsquo;s not really what you want; it\u0026rsquo;s what you think you want. Not knowing is actually a bit healthier, but feeling comfortable not knowing is the challenge. Some people are dead set and laser-focused: \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m just going to do that, and that\u0026rsquo;s all.\u0026rdquo;\n\u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to be a doctor,\u0026rdquo; or whatever. They might end up doing it, but I think you should always have your eyes open to other things because you\u0026rsquo;ll learn. You can keep being a doctor, lawyer, builder or whatever it is, but discover new things within that.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s what makes it a journey and makes it exciting. Another pattern is that everyone comes out, as you said, asking, \u0026ldquo;What do I want to do?\u0026rdquo; and feeling anxious because we put them in an environment where they feel they should know. That\u0026rsquo;s our culture now.\nEveryone is made to think they should know. In my opinion, not knowing isn\u0026rsquo;t the problem; feeling that you should know is more concerning, which is a bit of a mouthful. To bring this full circle, I couldn\u0026rsquo;t tell you what I\u0026rsquo;ll be doing one year from now.\nI can\u0026rsquo;t predict what ventures I\u0026rsquo;ll be involved in, where I\u0026rsquo;ll be or how much money I\u0026rsquo;ll have in the bank. Everything I\u0026rsquo;m doing has such open loops, and so much could happen. Maybe the prime minister will read the book and say, \u0026ldquo;I want you to do this program.\u0026rdquo; I don\u0026rsquo;t know.\nThere could also be negative things. Maybe all the business stuff crashes. But I\u0026rsquo;m not really worried because I\u0026rsquo;ve had enough experiences to learn that you can learn so much from the worst things that happen, and life is actually pretty simple at the end of the day.\nEverything we try and all the achievements we pursue are like scoring an extra goal when you\u0026rsquo;re already ahead. That\u0026rsquo;s my philosophy. There isn\u0026rsquo;t much to worry about because I normally feel satisfied with who I am and how I treat people. I try to remember that this is the most important thing, not where I am by 26 or 27 or any of that nonsense.\nThat makes whatever happens pretty okay in the long run. That\u0026rsquo;s the difference between someone who\u0026rsquo;s 18 and thinking, \u0026ldquo;Shit, what am I going to do with my life?\u0026rdquo; or finishing uni and asking the same question, and me sitting here thinking, \u0026ldquo;I wonder what I\u0026rsquo;m going to do with my life.\u0026rdquo;\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s a great way to put it.\nJoe: I don\u0026rsquo;t have any more certainty than they do. That\u0026rsquo;s the point.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s really cool. I like what you\u0026rsquo;re saying because there\u0026rsquo;s a distinction between having your eyes open, with the light in your head switched on, and being closed off.\nYou\u0026rsquo;re seeking and discovering things, even if you\u0026rsquo;re simply exploring what\u0026rsquo;s out there in your job or at uni, rather than saying, \u0026ldquo;This is what I\u0026rsquo;m doing. That\u0026rsquo;s it,\u0026rdquo; and closing yourself off to all possibilities. I think the world is open and ready to be discovered.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much more fun and interesting when you can go out, try stuff and pursue your passions and interests.\nJoe: Definitely. It\u0026rsquo;s probably different between generations. For people our parents\u0026rsquo; age, it was very different, but we have a cultural hangover.\nIt wasn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily worse. In many instances, they had fewer choices—definitely fewer choices on average—so they would pick a pathway. \u0026ldquo;If I can go to uni, that\u0026rsquo;s pretty good because that will normally get me a good job.\u0026rdquo; That made sense. Now it\u0026rsquo;s so different.\nUniversity is still there, but you have 500 million other things you can do. The internet changes your capabilities, but there\u0026rsquo;s a fraction of the awareness that there should be about that. The future is also changing with technology, AI and all those scary buzzwords about how all your jobs are going away. Things will change and adapt, but I think people will be able to adapt.\nThere\u0026rsquo;s a real opportunity now to approach this as a discovery period, rather than a period for feeling successful and safe as quickly as possible. That\u0026rsquo;s constraining, which I don\u0026rsquo;t find healthy. There\u0026rsquo;s a broader set of possibilities, but that can obviously be intimidating.\nIt can be overwhelming, and it\u0026rsquo;s hard to come up with a linear path. Seth\u0026rsquo;s endorsement—this blurb he wrote on the back of the book—reads, \u0026ldquo;The big lie is that people have figured out their future. In this powerful and honest book, you\u0026rsquo;ll discover that it\u0026rsquo;s a journey, not a plan, and that you can lean into the possibilities that lie ahead.\u0026rdquo;\nThat\u0026rsquo;s so well put and is a great quote irrespective of the book: it\u0026rsquo;s a journey, not a plan. At the end of the day, I always say that when I look back, I measure my quality of life in stories, not money, because in the end, there will be an end.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t know when, and I won\u0026rsquo;t be counting how many dollars I have in the bank. The best currency is having all these stories and all this cool shit that you look back on and did. Obviously, having enough money to eat, do stuff and reinvest in other things is pretty good along the way too.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s part of the picture. I\u0026rsquo;m writing a book that is my life, but forwards. A story has to be interesting.\nJames: That\u0026rsquo;s so cool.\nYou are going to die # James: I like what you briefly touched on there: you\u0026rsquo;re going to die someday.\nYou want to have these stories to tell, and that\u0026rsquo;s something I often think about too. I was listening to a book the other day called The Comfort Crisis.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a great title. This guy does a massive challenge where he goes into the forest with two of his hunting friends, some snacks, heaps of luggage, tents and whatever else. Their mission is to hunt an animal.\nI think they call it a caribou. I don\u0026rsquo;t really know what that is. I\u0026rsquo;m guessing it\u0026rsquo;s similar to a deer.\nJoe: Everything is similar to a deer.\nJames: They get this thing, bring it back and eat it as pretty much their sole source of food, then come back after a month.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a very interesting book. One thing he discussed was a particular country. I think it has a low wealth or GDP index, but it\u0026rsquo;s one of the happiest countries in the world. One theory is that people there are taught about death from an early age. They\u0026rsquo;re reminded that they can die, and they really focus on it. They have a plan for where they want to die and what it will look like, and they\u0026rsquo;ve considered it in great depth.\nSome people in the Western world get right to the end and think, \u0026ldquo;That\u0026rsquo;s what happened. I ended up here.\u0026rdquo; I think it\u0026rsquo;s key to consider death, whether you\u0026rsquo;re choosing a career or deciding whom to seek out.\nWhat are you going to spend your time doing? If you reflect on the fact that you\u0026rsquo;re planning your life and will die someday, there\u0026rsquo;s urgency to doing these things. They aren\u0026rsquo;t going to happen by themselves. I think that brings a lot of clarity, especially to what you were saying about extrinsic and intrinsic motivations.\nSome of the extrinsic motivations might start to fade away when you realise that death strips them back.\nJoe: Death strips them back completely. I don\u0026rsquo;t know if you\u0026rsquo;ve heard this, but my favourite question is, \u0026ldquo;What would you do if you had five years to live?\u0026rdquo;\nWhat would you do differently? How would you live differently? It\u0026rsquo;s my favourite question. People often ask what you\u0026rsquo;d do if you had a day to live. Obviously, I\u0026rsquo;d say hi to James, tell my mum I love her, go to the beach and have a party. That\u0026rsquo;s too easy. But with five years, you still have finances to manage and ration over that time.\nYet it\u0026rsquo;s close enough that you can\u0026rsquo;t ignore it. You also have time to do something meaningful that will probably have an impact after you\u0026rsquo;re gone because you\u0026rsquo;ll be very conscious that you\u0026rsquo;re going to be gone. It sounds a little morbid, but I think it\u0026rsquo;s actually the opposite.\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s morbid is that in the West, we put death out of the picture and deny it exists. Most people live as if they\u0026rsquo;re never going to die. When I look around, most people\u0026rsquo;s behaviour doesn\u0026rsquo;t make sense to me considering they\u0026rsquo;ll be dead one day. They might struggle for ten years just to get a mortgage.\nIf that\u0026rsquo;s an eighth or a tenth of your life, and the mortgage was the only thing you worked towards in that time at the expense of everything else that\u0026rsquo;s good about life, that doesn\u0026rsquo;t make sense. Everyone I\u0026rsquo;ve asked that five-year question has found that it strips back all the extrinsic stuff.\nYou aren\u0026rsquo;t worried about how people will look at you. Everything about human nature is about constraining attention because we have finite attention. So why do many people struggle even though this is logical?\nIn our world and environment, all the shiny objects suck our attention towards them. In the same way, social media always directs your attention to what\u0026rsquo;s in your feed, even when you don\u0026rsquo;t want to be scrolling on your phone. We don\u0026rsquo;t have that discipline, and it\u0026rsquo;s hard to apply it to everything you\u0026rsquo;re looking at all the time.\nI have to remind myself, \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t think about that. Think about this.\u0026rdquo; Death, like everything else, constrains your focus, but it probably constrains your focus better because it\u0026rsquo;s reality. Death is the reality we\u0026rsquo;ll have to face at some point.\nYou can\u0026rsquo;t lie about that. Anything to the contrary is a big fluff ball—a distraction. I\u0026rsquo;ve heard stories about cultures that centralise and normalise death, making it clear: \u0026ldquo;These are the constraints, so what are you going to do?\u0026rdquo;\nIt changes everything. That question changes everything for me. This podcast is geared towards careers, and we talked about networking today.\nIt absolutely impacts how you think about those things. You think, \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m not going to focus on doing everything in a transactional way. If I won\u0026rsquo;t be here in five years, I want that journey to be meaningful.\u0026rdquo;\nYou want it to be worthwhile, with good relationships, and you don\u0026rsquo;t have time for people who aren\u0026rsquo;t that. You don\u0026rsquo;t have time to think, \u0026ldquo;I just want to hang out with this person because they can get me this or that,\u0026rdquo; because you\u0026rsquo;re gone in five years.\nI try to remind myself of that question as often as possible because it is a massive release. Even thinking about it again now—thank you for prompting me unintentionally—with everything involved in launching a book, it\u0026rsquo;s calming. It\u0026rsquo;s fascinating and definitely missing from Western culture in a big way. It\u0026rsquo;s not normally in career guidance books or high school, but I have a feeling it might be in the coming decades.\nTechnology, the digital world, crypto, flying cars and all these things are going to shift the world so much. It\u0026rsquo;s coming, and it will force us to rethink how we do many things. It will be fascinating to see how big those changes might be.\nJames: Totally. I think that\u0026rsquo;s super cool.\nJoe\u0026rsquo;s advice for those starting university # James: All right. The last question for you today, Joe, is this: if you were graduating from university again—or perhaps starting university; you can choose—what\u0026rsquo;s the one piece of advice you would give yourself?\nJoe: The question we asked a lot around the book is what advice you\u0026rsquo;d give your 18-year-old self. I think I can say the same thing to both the version of me starting university and the version of me ending it: make the most of it; don\u0026rsquo;t settle for any less. I like that.\nEven when leaving, whatever comes next, focus on what you have and make the most of whatever you can access and start with. At university, I didn\u0026rsquo;t make the most of it. I wish I could go back.\nNot really, because I learnt a lot, and that made me more focused in life afterwards. Make the most of it. I think that\u0026rsquo;s it. Good question.\nJames: Perfect.\nOutro # James: Thanks so much for coming on today, Joe. It was a fantastic conversation and is much appreciated. If people want to find you on social media, purchase your book and all that stuff, where\u0026rsquo;s the best place?\nJoe: I\u0026rsquo;m someone with many internet links, so I\u0026rsquo;m always very careful with this. I\u0026rsquo;ll concentrate on the book. It\u0026rsquo;s 18andlost.com.au, with the word \u0026ldquo;and\u0026rdquo;. That\u0026rsquo;s the best place for everything to do with the book, and a good door into everything I\u0026rsquo;m involved in and working on.\nOther than that, I have a website and a podcast. They both have the same name, With Joe Wehbe. My last name is W-E-H-B-E, pronounced \u0026ldquo;Wehbe\u0026rdquo;. People can land on the website, which also has links to social media. I\u0026rsquo;d concentrate on those because I\u0026rsquo;m not very good at consolidating it all.\n← Back to episode 1\n","date":"5 November 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/graduate-theory/1-on-networking-with-founder-and-author-joe-wehbe/transcript/","section":"Graduate Theory Transcripts","summary":"← Back to episode 1\nThis transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.\n","title":"Transcript: On Networking with Founder and Author, Joe Wehbe","type":"graduate-theory-transcripts"},{"content":"Note: In this post I refer to \u0026lsquo;reading\u0026rsquo; as the reading of predominantly non-fiction/self-help books\nWhen we sit down to eat a juicy, fresh steak, we rarely eat it without some kind of topping. Be it salt and pepper, or something more extravagant like truffle sauce, the spices we have with steak make it taste significantly better.\nI heard this analogy recently on Youtube. There are some things in life that we make the metaphorical \u0026lsquo;steak\u0026rsquo; when they should only be the \u0026lsquo;spice\u0026rsquo;.\nFor example, gossip.\nSubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit Gossip - The Spice? # It\u0026rsquo;s ok to gossip, everyone does it. We can\u0026rsquo;t help to talk about other people behind their backs. This is normal human behaviour.\nBut the key question we have to ask is, \u0026ldquo;Is it the Spice, or is it the Steak?\u0026rdquo;\nGossiping should be the spice of life, it\u0026rsquo;s something we do every now and then to make things a bit more interesting, but it\u0026rsquo;s not something we do often. It is not a part of our core being.\nWe do not want to be around those people where gossiping is the Steak. Those people that only talk about others behind their backs. Those people that come to us with juicy info on someone, while we know fully that they would share the same gossip about us.\nGossip should be the Spice in your life, not the Steak.\nReading # This Steak and Spice metaphor can also be applied to reading.\nRecently I\u0026rsquo;ve been considering my reading. Last year I read 52 books and in 2021 I was aiming to read 60 books.\nAs the year has gone on, I have found that this reading has become something I am less interested in. Not because of the content in books, but the way I was going about reading them.\nI have realised that reading a book is, in itself, not an accomplishment.\nSure it is cool to read and learn more about the world. A great and necessary pursuit.\nBut reading huge amounts has less and less of a payoff. Reading books for no particular purpose is meaningless.\nMeaning in Reading # I would read books just for the sake of it. The only purpose being to finish the book and add another number to my count. I was reading with no goal or aim to get something out of the book. I had no desire to learn anything from the knowledge in those pages. I only wanted some key lessons I could repeat and add a number to my count.\nOn the contrary, reading with a goal in mind, with a problem to be solved, is a worthy cause. Reading to enhance your knowledge on a particular topic so you can go out and create, make an impact. Not just for the numbers. This is what I want. This is what reading and gaining knowledge is all about.\nWith my reading becoming something more for the numbers than actual knowledge, I felt that it was becoming the Steak of my life when reading should be the Spice.\nReading should be something that enhances or improves the things you already do. It gives you a new perspective, content ideas, practical insights, qualified opinions. It should not be the main thing.\nReading in itself is not a valuable skill. Knowing lots of things but not doing anything with that knowledge is in many ways worse than not knowing and not doing. If you know what to do but still don\u0026rsquo;t act, you have no excuses.\nStockpiling knowledge is only useful if you use the knowledge you have gained. If you don\u0026rsquo;t use this new knowledge, it is useless.\nWhen I first started reading, books changed my perspective. I had found this whole new world of things that I could learn and digest. Slowly though, I found myself still in the same place that I had started. Books did not seem to have a measurable impact on my life.\nThey made me feel like I was making progress in my life, giving me the illusion that I was taking steps towards success.\nIn reality, they were just a side quest, not really helping with the main mission. Reading books and chasing numbers was something that I thought was a valuable use of my time. I know now that it is not.\nIf someone watches self-help or interesting content on youtube all day long, but does nothing with it, we would describe this person as a time waster and someone that is mentally masturbating to self-help content. Yet for some reason we do not apply this logic to reading books. People cheer us on for reading 50 books in a year. In self-help circles, it is \u0026lsquo;cool\u0026rsquo; to read a high number of books. What we fail to realise is that reading books with no purpose and no action is the same as consuming any content but doing nothing with it. It is simply a waste of time, and completely contrary to what the purpose of the content is.\nIf someone is teaching you a lesson, you don\u0026rsquo;t just go and tell others the lesson to feel good about yourself. You implement the lesson in your life.\nBecoming The Spice # Just like the gossiping analogy, reading had become something in my life akin to the Steak, when it should be the Spice. I could tell you so many cool facts or so many lessons from books and stories that I have read. But where has that got me? Not much further than if I had stopped reading entirely. The lack of intention behind my reading is clear. I have been eating Spice, thinking it was the Steak. It\u0026rsquo;s time for reading to go back to where it belongs.\nThis is not to attack reading books. Reading books and learning from others is one of the best ways to learn. My opinion is that reading is not an accomplishment. Reading with the aim of learning, and using that knowledge to improve your actual life however, that is an accomplishment.\nIf you haven\u0026rsquo;t read any books of this genre, I think they can help immensely. Reading about social skills and psychology should be required reading for everyone. Just don\u0026rsquo;t fall into this trap, thinking that reading your 47th book for the second year straight is having an impact.\nSpice dramatically improves the taste of a Steak. In the same way, reading can have a massive impact on the things you do in your life. I think it\u0026rsquo;s important to acknowledge this, that reading is not, and should not be the main thing. It is a great supporting act, a cherry on top, a little bit extra. This is where reading has its place, not as the Steak.\nReading # With this in mind, I continue to read, but I read intentionally.\nI read with an aim in mind.\nI read without thinking about how many books I am going to read this year.\nI read to solve a problem.\nI read to learn new skills directly applicable to my current situation.\nI read because I enjoy reading.\nI read less, but I implement more.\nThis kind of reading is valuable. This kind of reading will intentionally enhance my life, the lives of my friends and all my future pursuits.\nAs Brendon Burchard says in his book \u0026lsquo;High Performance Habits\u0026rsquo;, being intentional about the things we do both makes us get more out of the things we do and also enjoy them more. Asking and reflecting on WHY we do certain things is important to avoiding this lack of intention problem in the future.\nJames\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"3 August 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/the-steak-and-the-spice/","section":"Writing","summary":"Note: In this post I refer to ‘reading’ as the reading of predominantly non-fiction/self-help books\nWhen we sit down to eat a juicy, fresh steak, we rarely eat it without some kind of topping. Be it salt and pepper, or something more extravagant like truffle sauce, the spices we have with steak make it taste significantly better.\n","title":"The Steak and the Spice","type":"posts"},{"content":"Welcome to James’s Newsletter by me, James Fricker.\nReading, learning and sharing about all things Technology, Data and Finance\nSign up now so you don’t miss the first issue.\nIn the meantime, tell your friends!\n","date":"23 July 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/coming-soon/","section":"Writing","summary":"Welcome to James’s Newsletter by me, James Fricker.\nReading, learning and sharing about all things Technology, Data and Finance\nSign up now so you don’t miss the first issue.\nIn the meantime, tell your friends!\n","title":"Stupid Simple","type":"posts"},{"content":" In today era, secure communication and privacy are more important than ever. Keeping our communication secure is done with this thing called \u0026lsquo;Cryptography\u0026rsquo;. Basically some smart calculations with prime numbers that mean we can secure and verify things easily, but it\u0026rsquo;s hard for a bad actor to come and steal the information.\nAs bad actors become more and more complex, so does the underlying Cryptography that keeps us all safe. One important and recent discovery in Cryptograhy is that of a Zero Knowledge Proof.\nWell what is that?\nA Zero Knowledge Proof basically means that I can prove something (proof) without giving away any information about what that thing is (zero knowledge).\nA zero-knowledge proof is where a prover (Alice) can prove that she knows information x to a verifier (Bob) without communicating any other information to Bob other than the fact that she knows x.\nNow this might not sound very cool, but it is!\nYou\u0026rsquo;ve probably heard words like blockchain and cryptocurrency recently. Zero Knowledge Proofs can be used in these things to provide complete anonymous transactions.\nWhat happens in a blockchain is that each transaction is recorded and added to the end of the chain. What ZKP\u0026rsquo;s allow us to do is to have this information be completely anonymous. It can still be looked at and verified by anyone, but we get Zero Knowledge about who is doing what.\nThe classic example of a ZKP is the cave example. Consider a circular cave with a door in the middle.\nCave Example # Now lets say I want the key to the cave. I want to be able to go all the way round this circle.\nMy friend Tash has knows the code to get through the door. She can go all the way round the cave.\nI want to buy this code from her, but I can\u0026rsquo;t be sure that she knows it!\nSo we set up a Zero Knowledge Proof. I wait outside the cave, and Tash goes in. Importantly, I don\u0026rsquo;t see which way Tash goes inside the cave.\nI then call out to her and ask her to come out on side A.\nNow if Tash knows the code to get through the door, she can come out side A if she went in though side A or side B. But if she doesn\u0026rsquo;t know the code, she will have to come out from the side that she came.\nSo let\u0026rsquo;s say she doesn\u0026rsquo;t know the code but luckily picks the side of the cave that I chose. She has a 50% chance of picking the correct way just by guessing. This isn\u0026rsquo;t great odds for us because we need to be certain that Tash knows the code before we pay her for it.\nTo be more certain that Tash isn\u0026rsquo;t just lucky but does in fact know the code, we repeat the experiment. We keep going until I can be almost certain that Tash is telling the truth that she knows the code.\nIf we do the experiment again and she manages to pick the pick the correct side again. We can be more confident that she knows the code.\nIf Tash manages to pick the right way 10 times in a row then I know she is telling the true with probability. $1-0.5^{10} = 1 - 0.000977 = 99.90%$\nSo after 10 correct guesses we can be pretty sure she is telling the truth. I can be sure she knows the key and I can then purchase it from her.\nZKP Principles # There are three main prinicples that underly a ZKP.\nCompletenes Soundnes Zero-knowledgeness If we use the example of Tash and the secret code above, we can illustrate these principles.\nCompleteness means that I can be sure that Tash knows the secret code.\nSoundness means that Tash can only convice me she knows the code if she is telling the truth. She couldn\u0026rsquo;t convince me if she didn\u0026rsquo;t know the code.\nAnd Zero-Knowledgeness which means that I gain Zero Knowledge about the code, only information that Tash knows the code.\nApplications # Everything on a blockchain is public. Anyone can see what is on there.\nFor example if I buy a bitcoin, you can go onto the blockchain and see who I purchased my bitcoin from.\nNot everything needs to be public though, some things are better in private.\nZKP\u0026rsquo;s allow things to be anonymous because now I can Prove what you did, while having Zero Knowledge of your identity.\nVoting Systems # One cool use case of blockchains is in voting systems. Blockchains can keep unchanging, permanent, public records of who cast each vote and when.\nWhat if we wanted to keep the information about who voted anonymous? This is where we would use a ZKP.\nVotes can still be verified and are still unchanging, but using a ZKP we can verify that someone voted without giving away their identity.\nTransactions # The main way blockchains are used at the moment is for crypto currency, and some currencies are designed for anonymity.\nThese currencies use ZKP\u0026rsquo;s to keep the identities of these people private.\nWhat we can do with ZKP\u0026rsquo;s is prove that a transaction is valid without knowing any information about the parties involved.\nOne such example of this is a currency called ZCash which you can read about here - https://z.cash/.\nConclusion # ZKP\u0026rsquo;s will fundementally change the way blockchains work. Being able to keep things on a blockchain verifiable and yet private opens up many more use cases, and many that we are not aware of yet.\nThe blockchain and cryptography space is one that is very exciting and I am looking forward to how these technologies will change our world for the better.\nUseful Sources # Below are some sources that I found useful to learn about ZKP\u0026rsquo;s and used to create this article. Use them if you\u0026rsquo;re interested in learning more about this topic.\nZero-knowledge proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof\nZero Knowledge Proofs: An illustrated primer https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/11/27/zero-knowledge-proofs-illustrated-primer/\nWhat Are Zero-Knowledge Proofs? Complete Beginner’s Guide https://blockonomi.com/zero-knowledge-proofs/\nExample of A Good Zero Knowledge Proof https://101blockchains.com/zero-knowledge-proof-example/\nWhat are Zero Knowledge Proofs? https://decrypt.co/resources/zero-knowledge-proofs-explained-learn-guide\n3 Real World Applications of Zero Knowledge Proofs https://www.coinbureau.com/adoption/applications-zero-knowledge-proofs/\nAnonymity in blockchain part 2: zk-snarks https://medium.com/newtown-partners/anonymity-in-blockchain-part-2-zk-snarks-df0cf0a0337b\nPrivacy Coins and zk-SNARKs: How Do They Work? https://decrypt.co/resources/privacy-coins-and-zk-snarks-how-do-they-work\n","date":"12 June 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/beginners-guide-to-zero-knowledge-proofs/","section":"Writing","summary":" In today era, secure communication and privacy are more important than ever. Keeping our communication secure is done with this thing called ‘Cryptography’. Basically some smart calculations with prime numbers that mean we can secure and verify things easily, but it’s hard for a bad actor to come and steal the information.\n","title":"Beginners Guide to Zero Knowledge Proofs","type":"posts"},{"content":"The following article was written in preparation for a Toastmasters speech. The aim of the speech is below\nThe purpose of this project is for the member to learn about different communication styles and identify his or her primary style.\nThis sounds super boring so I\u0026rsquo;ve just taken the communication bit and decided to talk about what I want more of in my communication.\nCommunication Inspiration # Today we are talking about communication styles, and my communication style. More importantly, I want to talk about the way in which I want to communicate.\nI think that there are many parrallels between companies and people. A company is also a living and evolving organism, facing challenges and growing. It can be interesting to look at companies, take the lessons from them, and apply these lessons to our own lives.\nRadical Transparency # Bridgewater # Have you ever heard of a guy called Ray Dalio?\nRay Dalio is the founder and manager of the worlds largest hedge fund, Bridgewater. Ray started Bridgewater in 1985 and is now one of the premier examples of not only a successful hedgefund, but a successful company.\nThere are many things that make this hedgefund unique, but one thing in particular that I would like to focus on is the management style, and they way in which they make decisions. At Bridgewater, everything is based on principles.\nA few years ago Ray released his book entitled \u0026lsquo;Principles\u0026rsquo;, in which he described his and his companies principles. Principles for his personal life, principles for making decisions in the business, principles for everything.\nEach decision that is made by someone at the company must reflect the companies principles. Whether it is investment decisions or new company hires, each process has principles that must be followed. As time progresses, these principles are subject to change and evolve, to become better over time.\nOne particular set of principles that operate at Bridgewater, that makes this company so unique, is it\u0026rsquo;s committment to authenticity and opennesss. Ray describes this as radical transparency.\nThese set of principles mean that\nall meetings are recorded and can be viewed by anyone in the company Team changes and criteria are known to all Each person has a strengths and weaknesses \u0026lsquo;card\u0026rsquo;, like an attributes card in a video game. These can be seen by anyone at the company These rules for radical transparency mean that nothing is kept a secret, that all problems can be dealt with and discussed in the public arena of ideas. This means that it\u0026rsquo;s easier to create an idea meritocracy, a place where the best ideas win.\nAn idea meritocracy is like a hierarchy, except for ideas. The idea of having such an open and honest culture is so that the best ideas will rise to the top. Problems can be openly discussed, and good ideas always win.\nTransparency in Creating # Another example of this radical transparency was shared with me through a book call \u0026lsquo;Show Your Work\u0026rsquo; by Austin Kleon. In this book Austin describes in detail how not only is your creative work something worth sharing, but also the way in which you learnt or produced that thing. Teaching someone how to do what you do adds value to what you do, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t take from you.\nHe shows many examples where companies and creatives have gone about teaching their methods. One in particular was a BBQ place in America. This venue had secret cooking techniques that they were well known for in the area. Once the company opened up and started showing and teaching others their special methods, they began to generate more customers and interest. Instead of losing market share because they had lost their competitive advantage, they flourished. Sharing their secrets was a risk, but it enabled the company to grow much more than they otherwise would.\nBeing more transparent with your methods may be scary but does not subtract from what you do, it adds to your uniqueness and value.\n(Un)Radical Transparency # If we contrast this radical transparency view to the standard corporate environment we see big differences.\nWhen searching for jobs, most of the time there is no pay range visible. This is kept within the company to increase their power during the hiring process.\nBudgets are unknown to those not in positions of leadership. Promotion criteria can make no sense and is kept a secret.\nIn my opinion, these kinds of secret tactics allow much more room for untrustworthiness and resentment to grow. When we don\u0026rsquo;t understand the reason why something happens, we can begin to doubt those in charge.\nAnother example of similar behaviour is when we are in relationships and something starts annoying us. It is absolutely important that you voice your concern and let your partner know of this difficulty. In the same way as the companies, hiding your resentment means it will not be dealt with and can only grow.\nStarting to see a pattern?\nSo, communication styles # I think there is one main idea from these companies and stories that I want to apply to my communication and that is honesty and transparency.\nIt seems to me to be very clear that while being more transparent can be scary and difficult, it also comes with rewards. Being able to trust others, and have them trust you is related to how transparent you can be with them.\nI want to be honest and transparent with the people that I meet and with those I love. I want people to know what I am and am not about. When someone does something I don\u0026rsquo;t like, I want to be honest.\nThis is especially important when it comes to feedback in both a personal and professional setting. I want to both give and receive completely honest feedback. Like Bridgewater, this will help me to become the best version myself that I can, and the good feedback that I need to hear will not be hidden and kept in secret.\nLike Austin Kleon wrote, sharing what I am doing and my inner thoughts may seem like it can drag me down. Sometimes I don\u0026rsquo;t want to share the things that are important to me. As we have seen, sharing has potential to bring you up rather than down.\nOne example of this working in my life was me sharing about attending Toastmasters. When I first started going, I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to tell people. When they asked what I was up t on a Tuesday night, I\u0026rsquo;d say \u0026lsquo;yea not much\u0026rsquo;. Slowly I began to be more transparent and tell people what I was actually doing. As I have done this, I have found others have supported me more, and the people that did not support me have faded away.\nJust like Ray\u0026rsquo;s idea meritocracy, the people that I want most have risen up the hierarchy to become my closest friends.\nSo the goals of my communications style, and something that I see real benefits in is being more open and honest.\nRadical Transparency.\nThanks for reading this far, subscribe to my email list below.\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"17 May 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/communication-styles-radical-transparency/","section":"Writing","summary":"The following article was written in preparation for a Toastmasters speech. The aim of the speech is below\nThe purpose of this project is for the member to learn about different communication styles and identify his or her primary style.\n","title":"Communication Styles - Radical Transparency","type":"posts"},{"content":"It was the 31st of December 2019. I got my phone out to record another video journal.\nAs I sat on my balcony, wondering what the past year had meant to me and all the things I had done. I couldn\u0026rsquo;t help but think about what the future might hold.\nI had always had this feeling that I wanted to move. To get out of my house and experience a new city. To take the leap and go out into the unknown.\nThis is my story.\nMy 2019 # In 2019 I had done just that. I stepped out of my comfort zone and travelled to Sheffield in the UK for a semester long exchange.\nMy time away was incredible, easily the most life-changing period of my life so far.\nI met so many amazing people and did so many cool things. Visited cool places across Europe like the Louvre in France and the beaches of Spain. These times created so many amazing memories.\nThis period of travelling definitely got me more interested into what it would be like to move. In fact, I even recall telling people while I was away that I would probably end up moving to Melbourne once I had finished uni.\nBalcony Moment # It just so happened that during my year review, sitting on my balcony at the end of 2019, I also mentioned that I would probably be getting a job in Melbourne in the coming year.\nWhat a thought that proved to be.\nScreenshot from my 2019 Review Journal The Offer # In May 2020, after applying for over 50 graduate jobs, I finally had an offer. This one was at a big bank, based in Melbourne.\nThis was so exciting for me. I had secured a great job at a great company, in a city that I knew I was always going to end up in.\nI accepted the offer, and waited until 2021 for the fateful moving day.\nSubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit Thought I\u0026rsquo;d plug my email signup here. Subscribe so I can send you the occaisional email about what I\u0026rsquo;m up to.\nThe Move # Moving cities crept up on me. I knew for most of the year that I would be moving so I had time to mentally prepare, but I would be lying if I said that it wasn\u0026rsquo;t difficult.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a big thing to leave my close friends, my girlfriend and my family. Unknown when I would see them again.\nSome of my close friends had been my close friends for about 10 years. Given that I am only 22 years old, that\u0026rsquo;s nearly half of my entire life catching up with these people on a regular basis. Telling them my thoughts and feelings, going on my life\u0026rsquo;s journey with them. It\u0026rsquo;s hard to leave them behind.\nWhen you think about these things deeply, on the one hand it is sad that we leave these people behind. All those memories built up together feel like they are being lost. On the other hand though, it also opens up great opportunity to add new people into your life, to get many new experiences and to grow as a person.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve never really understood people that are friends with the same people year after year, until they grow old. Sure I\u0026rsquo;m not going to stop being friends with people for no reason, or just because I\u0026rsquo;ve moved, but I think that there is so much to be found by meeting new people and expanding your social circle.\nOne quote that I really like on this topic is,\nYou are the average of the five people you spend the most time with\nAnd yet this quote doesn\u0026rsquo;t stop there. I heard one author say that what this quote also means is that \u0026ldquo;if your friends aren\u0026rsquo;t changing, then neither are you\u0026rdquo;.\nWhen I first heard that it really hit home. When I\u0026rsquo;m older I want to be better and more able to care for my family and those around me. I see that as my primary mission in life. In order to do that, I must grow and evolving friendships is a good sign of growth.\nMe sitting in my car talking about moving - 25th of Jan D-Day # It was the 31st of January, 2021. My Dad and I drove for about 8 hours one day, and arrived in Melbourne the following day, on the 1st of February.\nHow rare is it that you get to spend an entire day doing nothing else but chatting to your father? Listening to him talk did get annoying at times, but what a trip, and what an amazing experience to share with my Dad. This felt like a passing of the baton moment. The moment where I would say goodbye to my Dad and my family, and begin my own journey, taking charge of my life.\nIt felt so surreal to be leaving the city I had spent my whole life in so far, to travel to what would be my new home. Not just for a holiday, but for the forseeable future.\nMe sitting on my car before we head off - 31st of Jan Settling In and Isolation # When I arrived in Melbourne the place was still \u0026lsquo;waking up\u0026rsquo;. The lockdowns of 2020 were only recently finished and many restrictions remained. I was working from home, and not really having the best time.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s quite isolating when you move to a new city where you don\u0026rsquo;t really know anyone, and you can\u0026rsquo;t meet people at work. Besides having my wonderful girlfriend over for a week to help me settle in, I had almost no face to face contact outside of my housemates for about 3-4 weeks. Add in a 5 day lockdown on the second weekend I was there, and it\u0026rsquo;s not a great recipe.\nThis kind of isolation is very hard to deal with. There\u0026rsquo;s no way to escape except going for long drives, walks or visiting the gym. Fortunately for me, all three of these were an option and were fully utilised.\nI strongly believe that without the gym during this period my mental health would have been in very bad shape. I am so thankful that I go to the gym regularly and that there is one nearby. I would say that the gym and personal fitness have absolutely improved my life in every single possible area, and I am very grateful.\nOpening a present in Melbourne - matching shirt and sheets! - 12th of Feb Homesickness # I\u0026rsquo;m not sure if I felt homesick or just unhappy that I had not much social contact. There were days that I was sad, days that I cried and days where I wondered if I had made the right choice. Reflecting on this now, some weeks later, I know that I did.\nI knew that these feelings of sadness and resentment would fade, and that in the long run, this decision to move would be one of the best choices I have ever made. Slowly but surely, that is turning out to be the case.\nMy Reality # It\u0026rsquo;s now been months since I moved from Adelaide to Melbourne. I\u0026rsquo;ve been back to see friends and family many times, and there are plans for people to come and see me too.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve met many fantastic people through the grad program at work and through other social activities. As time goes on, I\u0026rsquo;ll only meet more people and things will only get even better.\nMe speaking at my brothers 21st birthday in Adelaide - 20th of March My Reflection # Family and Friends # I think that this entire process has been made so much easier with the love I have recieved from my family, friends and girlfriend. Knowing that there is people around me supporting me all the time has meant that moving hasn\u0026rsquo;t been that bad at all. I have been back home multiple times already, and family have come to visit me too which has helped immensely.\nOne key theme I\u0026rsquo;ve noticed through writing this is how important people are in my life. When I am down, it seems that the people around me are the ones that help me the most. In my opinion it is absolutely worth being careful about who you let into your life and who you surround yourself with. These people are so important in helping you through hard times and shaping your life. I am very fortunate to be blessed with such amazing close friends and family. This is a luxury that not many people have, and I am so grateful. Without these special people, moving my life like this would simply not have been possible.\nStepping Stones # Another reason why this process was easier for me was that I have had various stepping stones leading up to this moment in my life. I was talking to a friend about this recently.\nWhen we were in Year 8 at school, we took a whole week called Unley week. This meant that our class could go out and complete tasks in the suburb of Unley. This was a big step for me at the time.\nIn Year 9 we did city week, which meant that this time we were now free to explore the CBD of Adelaide.\nIn Year 11 I did an exchange to Germany. I lived with another family for 2 months in the city of Hamburg. Again, at the time, this was a big step for me, but yet again my comfort zone was being stretched.\nAs I mentioned earlier, in 2019 I went on a semester exchange to Sheffield. Another big step.\nUpon reflecting on all these things that I have done, I have come to realise that this experience of moving was just the next step in the process. Continually pushing out my comfort zone and proof that I can handle these kinds of situations. Once again, without the loving support of my family, these situations would not have been possible and I may not be where I am today.\nSunset in Adelaide - 5th of April My Advice # So, now you\u0026rsquo;ve read about my experience, what are some tips that I would have for someone undergoing the same or similar journey?\nStay in Touch # As I\u0026rsquo;ve mentioned, remaining in touch with close family and friends was very important in the initial stages of moving. I moved from having a great social circle to not having any friends around. It takes time to find new friends, and I think during this period of creating new friendships it\u0026rsquo;s essential that you remain in touch with those people that you love.\nExplore # One thing that I have done, and one thing that I will do more of, is to explore.\nNow you have moved it is your time to try all those things that you didn\u0026rsquo;t do because your friends didn\u0026rsquo;t think it was cool. It\u0026rsquo;s time to shake off that social pressure and do what you want because you want to do it.\nSome examples for me in this area are\nwriting this post and this blog starting an instagram page about books going to random gym classes because you want to try new things driving to cool places because you want to see what\u0026rsquo;s there Your chance to finally do these things has arrived, so I encourage you to make the most of it.\nEnjoy your own company # I think this is super important. Over the first few weeks, I spent a lot of time with myself, not doing anything.\nThis was really insightful for me. When you sit doing nothing for so long, you start to go a bit crazy. Things pop into your mind that you don\u0026rsquo;t expect.\nIn my opinion, these things have been around for a while, but you are only now just noticing. Take in what comes to you and realise that these feelings are just that, feelings, you are safe and loved.\nI think in enjoying your own company you need to be ok doing things yourself. Going on trips yourself, going out for lunch yourself. These are things I have had to do and definitely things that I now enjoy. Doing things with other people is also fun, but learning to enjoy these simple things just by yourself is very valuable.\nConclusion # During my move I doubted myself, I was scared, I learnt a lot and I overcame difficulties. As I have always known, moving cities is one of the best things I will ever do and I look forward to what the future holds.\nJames\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"17 April 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/moving-interstate/","section":"Writing","summary":"It was the 31st of December 2019. I got my phone out to record another video journal.\nAs I sat on my balcony, wondering what the past year had meant to me and all the things I had done. I couldn’t help but think about what the future might hold.\n","title":"Moving Interstate","type":"posts"},{"content":"It\u0026rsquo;s something I always wondered.\nI\u0026rsquo;m a decent student, I\u0026rsquo;ve done some cool things. I\u0026rsquo;m applying to these cool jobs.\nAnd I\u0026rsquo;m hearing nothing back.\nSometimes I\u0026rsquo;d even get a rejection email the same day that I sent my application.\nHow can this be? I didn\u0026rsquo;t think I was that bad?\nThis article will finally shed some light on what a good graduate looks like.\nAustralian Financial Review (AFR) # The AFR is a prominent news producer for everything in the professions sector. From finance and commerce to law, this publication has you covered.\nRecently they released an article where they list the graduates that were hired this year at a consulting company called Kearney.\nThis article is the focus of this post and you can read the article here.\nKearney # This is a management consulting firm from America. According to Wikipedia:\nKearney has consistently earned top places among global management consulting firm rankings, such as Vault\u0026rsquo;s Consulting 50 and Consulting magazine\u0026rsquo;s \u0026ldquo;Best Firms to Work For\u0026rdquo;.\nThis is a highly competitive place to get a job.\nThe Kearney Graduates # So, what are all these fresh graduates like?\nHave they created and sold their startups? Have they been to the moon?\nNot quite, but they are still impressive.\nTo save you going through this entire article, I\u0026rsquo;ve compiled some stats from the article on these people.\nThe Statistics # Of 1200 applications, 10 graduates were hired. That means 0.8333% of applicants recieved an offer.\nOf the 10 graduates the average age is 24.4. The minimum was 22 and the oldest was 29.\n8 of the 10 did double degrees. 5 of the graduates did Law, 7 did Commerce or Economics and 4 did some STEM variant like Maths or Engineering.\nHalf of the new graduates did an Internship at Kearney, with 6 of them completing 2 or more internships in total before being hired. This extends to 8 if you include the 2 people that went away and worked in politics for a time before being accepted as a graduate.\n2 of the 10 were president of a club at University.\nAnalysis # When I said that these roles were competitive, I meant it. 10 graduates out of 1200 applicants is a very low acceptance rate. It speaks to just how competitive these roles are, and what kind of a calibre you need to be in order to get an offer.\nThe average age also surprised me. Most people leave uni at about 21-22 years old. The average age for an offer at Kearney is older than that at 24.4. It seems that these high calibre graduates spend longer in university and in work getting experience and better internships than regular students.\nOne thing that wasn\u0026rsquo;t covered in the analysis above is the quality of these internships. Most of the graduates where interning at Big 4 consulting firms or places like Macquarie. Multiple internships at this level will provide a very competitive resume, especially combined with other extra-curricular activities.\nAdvice # All of these people employ a kind of snowball effect. What happens in these jobs is that it can be like a kind of snowball, you get a few wins early and these leads to bigger and bigger wins.\nIf you are aiming for these kinds of competitive jobs, you need to get the snowball rolling early. Get good grades, and get yourself an internship as soon as you can. This will make getting your second one easier, and then your third one etc. Just like the graduates we have seen here have done.\n50% of these graduates interned at Kearney before recieving an offer. Interning at your desired company is one of the best ways to get a job there. Once you start applying for graduate roles, things get much more competitive. Securing internships at those companies you want to work at is absolutely vital if you want to land a good role like the ones discussed here.\nConclusion # There are some really proficient graduates out there. In order to get yourself into a position to land these high quality roles, employ the snowball effect early in your university time to get good internships to set yourself up for success.\n","date":"12 March 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/what-does-a-great-graduate-look-like/","section":"Writing","summary":"It’s something I always wondered.\nI’m a decent student, I’ve done some cool things. I’m applying to these cool jobs.\nAnd I’m hearing nothing back.\nSometimes I’d even get a rejection email the same day that I sent my application.\n","title":"What Does a Great Graduate Look Like?","type":"posts"},{"content":"By James Fricker. See more about me here.\nWhy would you like to be a 2021 Graduate Representative? (108 words) # I am always looking to learn. From reading books to researching topics in my spare time, I am always looking to learn more about the world around me. This desire and hunger to discover new things has absolutely helped me land a role at ANZ.\nOften, I look for areas in which I can share new knowledge and my passion for learning. When I first heard that ANZ had a knowledge committee, I knew it was the opportunity for me.\nBeing able to connect my colleagues with experts and provide them with valuable learning experiences is something that really excites me, and I would love to be involved.\nWhat will you bring to the role? (145 words) # I am passionate about learning. I expect that this passion will rub off on my colleagues and that together we can provide an excellent learning experience to our fellow grads.\nDespite our unique start to our grad program in 2021, I have managed to connect well with many graduates, and see this connection as vital in seeing what my colleagues actually want from KnowComm.\nI also think my approach to events and tasks is unique. Submitting my application in the form of a website or post is an example of something that is not the normal approach. I am always looking for ways to improve, to do things differently and to make things better. I think that this approach will lead to benefits in sourcing and delivering KnowComm events, as well as the main goal which is making the KnowComm experience one that is invaluable.\nWhat are you curious about? (100 words) # I read a lot of books and these are one of my main sources of learning. I\u0026rsquo;m also interested in public speaking and I attend my local Toastmasters club.\nWhen I read books, I do read mostly non-fiction. I am really interested in psychology and books like Psycho-Cybernetics and The Alter Ego Effect, I read about finance and economics with books like The Deficit Myth and Meltdown among many other genre\u0026rsquo;s and titles. You can see all the books I read last year and a quick summary here.\n","date":"10 March 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/r/knowcomm/","section":"Rs","summary":"By James Fricker. See more about me here.\nWhy would you like to be a 2021 Graduate Representative? (108 words) # I am always looking to learn. From reading books to researching topics in my spare time, I am always looking to learn more about the world around me. This desire and hunger to discover new things has absolutely helped me land a role at ANZ.\n","title":"Knowledge Committee 2021 Graduate Representative Application","type":"r"},{"content":" Contents # Is Experiencing Yourself that Bad? Solitude as a Tool The Difference Refrigerator Hum Summary SubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit Rarely do we spend time alone with ourselves.\nWhenever space frees up in our calendar or we get some free time, we don\u0026rsquo;t tend to just enjoy the moment. We quickly fill any spare time with things like watching TV, checking our phones or scheduling catchups with friends. Sometimes these activities still aren\u0026rsquo;t enough and we block this experience even further with things like drugs and alcohol.\nOutside of any meditation practice, we don\u0026rsquo;t just sit and experience what it is like to be ourselves.\nOne reason that we might not like to do this, is that experiencing ourselves can be pretty scary.\nIs Experiencing Yourself that Bad? # “All of humanity\u0026rsquo;s problems stem from man\u0026rsquo;s inability to sit quietly in a room alone.”\n― Blaise Pascal, Pensées ( 1670)\nSolitary Confinement is one such example of the negative effects of solitude. Last year the UN declared that solitary confinement for 15 days is a form of torture and has been banned from prisons1.\nAnother study on solitary confinement wrote that \u0026ldquo;a robust scientific literature has established the negative psychological effects of solitary confinement\u0026rdquo;, leading to \u0026ldquo;an emerging consensus among correctional as well as professional, mental health, legal, and human rights organizations to drastically limit the use of solitary confinement.\u0026rdquo;2\nIn a recent study3, a quarter of women and two-thirds of men would rather suffer an electric shock than be alone with their thoughts.\nEven in my personal experience, having nothing to do or people to see for extended periods can make me go a little crazy.\nPeople go to EXTREME lengths to avoid solitude, but how bad can it be really? Is spending time with yourself and experiencing what it is like to be you really that bad?\nSolitude as a Tool # Fortunately, there is hope.\nOften times when we have these extended periods without communication, we are experiencing what we really think, what we are really like. That can be pretty scary.\nA 2003 study4 tried to look at the positive effects of solitude.\nThey found the following\npeople are more free (obviously) When you are by yourself, clearly you\u0026rsquo;re not worried about what other people think of you, and you can begin to express yourself and do things in the ways that you really want.\nCreativity When you are alone, your creativity can be sparked. Studies have also found that younger people that have difficulty being by themselves often stop enhancing creative talents.\nThe development of the self This is the one that I am most interested in. Solitude allows us to have a period of self-examination, to have some spiritual growth. To really discover what we really think about things.\nMany figures from the Bible spent time in solitude in order to get closer to God. Moses and Jesus both had periods where they spend 40 days away from society (probably fasting as well).\nOther spiritual people like monks and enlightened beings will remove themselves from society just to experience the bliss that is the present moment. These people don\u0026rsquo;t just shy away from solitary confinement, they actively seek it out.\nHow is it possible that being alone with yourself can have such different outcomes? It can literally be used as a torture technique, but also the exact opposite as a way to connect yourself to God and to your spirituality.\nThe Difference # While solitary confinement can be both torturous and spiritual, there are some key reasons why that could be the case.\nAccording to Kenneth Rubin, a developmental psychologist at the University of Maryland, solitary confinement can be torturous when\nit\u0026rsquo;s not optional you can\u0026rsquo;t stop when you\u0026rsquo;d like you don\u0026rsquo;t have positive relations outside you can\u0026rsquo;t regulate your own emotions well Alternatively, when solitude is optional and the other conditions are met, the experience can be quite enlightening.\nRefrigerator Hum # When all distractions are taken away, all we have left is ourselves. We might get angry or fall into a state of apathy, like nothing matters.\nWhatever you feel during these times of silence are feelings that are not unique to the silence. It is simply the case that now we have removed all distractions, we can experience what we are really feeling.\nThis is kind of like the background hum of a refrigerator. You never really notice that it\u0026rsquo;s there, but if you listen for it carefully, you can hear it.\nIn the same way, when we take time in solitude to feel our emotions, we are listening to the refrigerator hum of our lives. These feelings that we feel are with us all the time. They carry into all interactions and experiences of our lives.\nNegative emotions don\u0026rsquo;t just disappear when you check your phone.\nSo when you sit down with no distractions, is that scary? Do you need to find a way to escape your negative self-talk?\nOr do you enjoy the experience of being by yourself, free to enjoy the calmness and beauty of everyday life?\nWhatever you feel, these are things that you feel unconsciously all the time. For this reason, I see being in solitude, as a way to connect with my real self. To be able to see what I am really thinking. To fully experience those negatives thoughts and feelings that are always playing on my mind.\nSummary # In today\u0026rsquo;s world, we rarely spend time by ourselves.\nSolitude can be both a torture method and a spiritual experience.\nSpending time with yourself can be scary but also allow you to fully overcome emotional experiences. This allows you to live life in a more positive and vibrant way.\nConnect With Me!I'll remind you when I post so you don't have to remember\nSubscribe​\nBuilt with ConvertKit Hart, Alexandra; Cabrera, Kristen (23 January 2020). \u0026ldquo;Why Some Experts Call Solitary Confinement \u0026lsquo;Torture\u0026rsquo;\u0026rdquo;. Texas Standard. Retrieved 3 September 2020.\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nHaney, Craig (3 November 2017). \u0026ldquo;Restricting the Use of Solitary Confinement\u0026rdquo;. Annual Review of Criminology. 1: 285–310. doi:10.1146/annurev-criminol-032317-092326. ISSN 2572-4568.\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nhttps://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/people-prefer-electric-shocks-to-being-alone-with-their-thoughts/373936/\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nLong, Christopher R. and Averill, James R. “Solitude: An Exploration of the Benefits of Being Alone.” Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour 33:1 (2003): Web. 30 September 2011.\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"21 February 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/solitude/","section":"Writing","summary":"Contents # Is Experiencing Yourself that Bad? Solitude as a Tool The Difference Refrigerator Hum Summary SubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit Rarely do we spend time alone with ourselves.\n","title":"Solitude","type":"posts"},{"content":"So here we are. The end.\nProgress was very slow to non-existent near the end of this challenge. I nearly completed all of the blog posts, but missed the last 12 posts.\nBusiness is no excuse but I was getting ready to move interstate to begin work in Melbourne.\nThis was obviously a decent process that meant it was difficult to find time to write my blog posts.\nAlthough I didn\u0026rsquo;t finish this process as I would\u0026rsquo;ve liked, I think it\u0026rsquo;s still very important to reflect on this experience.\nAs Ray Dalio says, Pain + Reflection = Growth. Not that these posts were painful to write, but there is something that is always difficult about stepping outside your comfort zone. Now, it\u0026rsquo;s time to reflect.\nReflection # I created 58 blog posts since my exams finished near the end of November.\nI\u0026rsquo;d like to think now that I have some coherent ideas in my head, and that I now have a much better idea of how to write and structure a post.\nCreating this many blog posts forced me to constantly be searching for ideas to write about. I found that really rewarding. I realised that many things that happened to me during my regular life were note-worthy and great to share. Even though some things may be mundane to me, they can definitely be useful to others.\nMany ideas that I had were lost because I forgot to write them down. I think if I was to do this more regularly, I would need some kind of note taking device on me at all times.\nAs the challenge came to an end I began telling more friends about what I had been doing. I found that even though I showed friends onto my site and they briefly read some of the posts, they didn\u0026rsquo;t sign up to the mailing list. This could be because either the content wasn\u0026rsquo;t engaging enough for them, they didn\u0026rsquo;t want to support me or the sign-up boxes were not obvious enough. I think it\u0026rsquo;s most likely to be that the content wasn\u0026rsquo;t engaging enough for them. Next time I do something like this, I think that it would be really important to specify exactly who the content is for, and make sure that the right demographic is seeing that content.\nOne thing that was very useful was taking notes of everything that I read or listened too. This made the creation of the blog post very easy as I could simply pull information that I already had access to, rather than try to remember exactly what was said. Things like quotes and cool concepts would be very useful to keep for this purpose.\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/quotes is a great place to grab quotes from books.\nWhat Next? # I am very keen to continue this process of blogging and sharing my life with others.\nI think next time I will plan to target a specific group with ideas that I have some specialisation in. For example, I have a good graduate job. Showing others my process for getting a job and how I went about doing it would be something that I could definitely do.\nI think some of the best mediums for this are blogging and youtube videos. The best way to do this may be to write a post, and then create a youtube video which is just me speaking about my blog post content. This way I can get 2 pieces of content for 1 amount of work.\nSummary # Overall I am very happy I undertook this challenge. It has been very cool for me to write down my thoughts and express myself in a way I had not done previously.\nBack soon.\n","date":"4 February 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210204/","section":"Others","summary":"So here we are. The end.\nProgress was very slow to non-existent near the end of this challenge. I nearly completed all of the blog posts, but missed the last 12 posts.\nBusiness is no excuse but I was getting ready to move interstate to begin work in Melbourne.\n","title":"Wrap up and Reflections","type":"other"},{"content":"I was in the gym with a friend recently.\nHe didn\u0026rsquo;t know what workout he was going to do when he arrived.\nHe wasn\u0026rsquo;t tracking his lifts.\nI am no gym expert but it was very obvious that he wasn\u0026rsquo;t maximising his gains in the gym.\nHe didn\u0026rsquo;t realise how easy it would be for him to make significantly more progress.\nThis is probably what rich and successful people feel like when they see people around suffering in horrible corporate jobs. They don\u0026rsquo;t even realise how easy it is to do better.\nThis got me thinking, in this gym scenario, I can easily tell where my friend was making mistakes.\nBut where are those areas in my life that I am making mistakes? Places where I am leaving gains on the table?\nPerhaps I need to find others that could give that advice to me. Those people that would tell you where you are making mistakes.\nFood for thought.\n","date":"19 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210119/","section":"Others","summary":"I was in the gym with a friend recently.\nHe didn’t know what workout he was going to do when he arrived.\nHe wasn’t tracking his lifts.\nI am no gym expert but it was very obvious that he wasn’t maximising his gains in the gym.\n","title":"Leaving Gains On The Table","type":"other"},{"content":"I\u0026rsquo;m moving to Melbourne pretty soon. In 13 days to be exact.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve noticed changes in my personality already.\nI once heard this story.\nThis boy is offered an opportunity to be a monk in a cave with a older man for 10 years. There is no going back once he has left.\nIf the boy accepts, he has already completed his training.\nThis sounds kind of strange, but let me explain.\nIf the boy is really willing to give up 10 years of his life to meditate. Then he is already well on the way to understanding the beauty and power of his practice.\nIn the same way, in my preparations for moving to Melbourne. I am already well on the way to the personality changes that will occur during my trip. I have already begun the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey.\n","date":"18 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210118/","section":"Others","summary":"I’m moving to Melbourne pretty soon. In 13 days to be exact.\nI’ve noticed changes in my personality already.\nI once heard this story.\nThis boy is offered an opportunity to be a monk in a cave with a older man for 10 years. There is no going back once he has left.\n","title":"Personality Changes","type":"other"},{"content":"It\u0026rsquo;s sometimes hard to think of ideas.\nLike you just can\u0026rsquo;t put something on the page.\nBut ideas are all around us.\nInspiration is everywhere.\nInstead of pushing to be inspired, let the inspiration come to you.\n","date":"18 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210117/","section":"Others","summary":"It’s sometimes hard to think of ideas.\nLike you just can’t put something on the page.\nBut ideas are all around us.\nInspiration is everywhere.\nInstead of pushing to be inspired, let the inspiration come to you.\n","title":"Thinking of Ideas","type":"other"},{"content":"The other night I was chatting with some friends.\nWe were talking about controversial topics like what\u0026rsquo;s happening at the moment in America.\nThere are some topics like this that are very polarising.\nWhen people hear these things being said, they instantly go to one side and prepare to fight against the other.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a difficult thing to manage in a conversation.\nHow can you have these interesting and heated discussion, without offending the other people?\nI think the solution is in asking questions.\nIf you are genuinely curious about what people think, then you are just seeking to learn and not on anyone\u0026rsquo;s side.\nThis means you can still have a great discussion, but you come away having learnt some things, rather than feeling divided.\nIn todays age, controversial conversations like these happen all the time. In my opinion, it\u0026rsquo;s best to approach them with a questions first attitude.\n","date":"18 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210116/","section":"Others","summary":"The other night I was chatting with some friends.\nWe were talking about controversial topics like what’s happening at the moment in America.\nThere are some topics like this that are very polarising.\nWhen people hear these things being said, they instantly go to one side and prepare to fight against the other.\n","title":"Questions First","type":"other"},{"content":"A problem I often fall into is not being happy right now, and saying that I will be happy when another event happens.\nI will be happy when\u0026hellip;.\nThe Problem # When you say this, you are getting this temporary kick of how it feels to experience that event. You are using that future event to feel good now.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s like this story from The Alchemist.\nThe Story # There is a trader who\u0026rsquo;s dream it is to one day go to Mecca. To complete the Islamic pilgrimage.\nHaving this dream to look forward to is the only thing in his mind that keeps him going in the day-to-day activities.\nWithout this potential future event, his life is meaningless.\nIf he was to actually achieve the dream, he would have to face his life with no hope.\nAs they say, the only thing worse than never getting what you want, is getting what you want.\nWhat Then? # To avoid this thought process, get into the habit of enjoying what is in front of you right now.\nEnjoy walks to work.\nEnjoy the trees.\nEnjoy dinners with family and friends.\nEnjoy the now.\nDon\u0026rsquo;t lose your ability to enjoy and have fun right now.\n","date":"18 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210115/","section":"Others","summary":"A problem I often fall into is not being happy right now, and saying that I will be happy when another event happens.\nI will be happy when….\nThe Problem # When you say this, you are getting this temporary kick of how it feels to experience that event. You are using that future event to feel good now.\n","title":"I'll be happy when","type":"other"},{"content":"I was chatting to a friend last night. He was looking at all the content that I\u0026rsquo;ve produced over the last few weeks.\nHe asked me, \u0026ldquo;How do you stay motivated?\u0026rdquo;\nI gave him three reasons.\nThree Reasons for Motivation # The first is that I am currently on holidays and don\u0026rsquo;t have much to do. This of course makes spending a few minutes on this every day very easy.\nThe second is that I\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking about doing something like this for quite a while so I had quite a few idea\u0026rsquo;s in the bank ready to write out. This makes writing about certain topics seem very easy. I\u0026rsquo;ve had the post in my head for sometimes months before I had written about it in this period.\nThe third reason is that I want to improve my communication skills and writing every day presents a great opportunity to improve these skills. I\u0026rsquo;ve been a part of Toastmasters this year as well, and that has helped me a crazy amount with improving my public speaking skills.\nThe Key to Motivation # I find that trying to motivate yourself into doing something can be extremely difficult. This kind of forcing yourself to do things can work for a time, but you are fighting a losing battle.\nA much better approach is to have that intrinsic motivation. The kind of motivation that makes the work feel effortless. This is the kind of motivation I have with this blog. Writing a post is something I get kind of excited about, it\u0026rsquo;s not something that I need to force myself to do. In the long term, this is the only way you will stick to those things you want to do.\n","date":"14 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210114/","section":"Others","summary":"I was chatting to a friend last night. He was looking at all the content that I’ve produced over the last few weeks.\nHe asked me, “How do you stay motivated?”\nI gave him three reasons.\n","title":"How to Stay Motivated","type":"other"},{"content":"I just finished reading the book \u0026ldquo;Show Your Work\u0026rdquo; by Austin Kleon.\nIn this book, Austin outlines how showing your work is beneficial for yourself and your brand.\nMany of us only show the finished product, the final result. We don\u0026rsquo;t tell our audience all the things that we did along the way. All the mistakes and achievements.\nThis is part of the process, this is the work.\nAustin shows us that showing this side of your work is not only cool for your fans to see, but also a way to further connect and enhance your brand.\nGiving away your tricks of the trade may seem like you are giving away your competitive advantage. In reality, you are letting people really see what it looks like to produce high quality work, and this will make you stand out from the crowd.\nShowing people your tricks won\u0026rsquo;t make your stuff less valuable, it will make it more valuable.\n“Forget about being an expert or a professional, and wear your amateurism (your heart, your love) on your sleeve. Share what you love, and the people who love the same things will find you.” ― Austin Kleon, Show Your Work!: 10 Ways to Share Your Creativity and Get Discovered\n","date":"13 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210113/","section":"Others","summary":"I just finished reading the book “Show Your Work” by Austin Kleon.\nIn this book, Austin outlines how showing your work is beneficial for yourself and your brand.\nMany of us only show the finished product, the final result. We don’t tell our audience all the things that we did along the way. All the mistakes and achievements.\n","title":"Show Your Work","type":"other"},{"content":"There\u0026rsquo;s this thing known as the growth mindset.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the mindset that a person has, they believe that they can improve.\nIn Carol Dweck\u0026rsquo;s book \u0026ldquo;Mindset\u0026rdquo;, she shows the research that has gone into this mindset and how people who think in this way typically have more interesting and fulfilling lives.\nI think it can be taken one step further.\nSome people have what I think it \u0026ldquo;The Best\u0026rdquo; mindset.\nThis in one step further than the growth mindset.\nInstead of merely thinking that they can improve, people with this mindset think that they can be the best.\nThe best student, the best chef, the best anything.\nWhatever environment they enter, they think they can, and expect to dominate.\nWhenever I do a regular task, try to make yourself the best person at it.\nBecause how you do anything is how you do everything, and this mindset will mean you try to become the best in every area of your life.\n","date":"12 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210112/","section":"Others","summary":"There’s this thing known as the growth mindset.\nIt’s the mindset that a person has, they believe that they can improve.\nIn Carol Dweck’s book “Mindset”, she shows the research that has gone into this mindset and how people who think in this way typically have more interesting and fulfilling lives.\n","title":"The Best Mindset","type":"other"},{"content":"Typically when my room gets messy, it\u0026rsquo;s during times that I\u0026rsquo;m either\nsuper busy, or in a bit of a mental low Having a messy room seems to be also correlated with having a messy mind. When my room is messy I typically have\na hunger for sweet foods a desire to watch movies and play video games a desire to watch pornograhy and explicit content These things are considered \u0026rsquo;low energy\u0026rsquo;. They are all negative and unsustainable activities.\nDuring these times its much more difficult to be present and enjoy each moment.\nWhat I find, is that cleaning my room is extremely beneficial.\nCleaning your room also cleans your mind.\nThe state of your room is also a reflection of the state of your mind.\nIt lets you reset yourself and begin anew.\nA messy room is a messy mind.\nA clean room is a clean mind.\n","date":"12 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210111/","section":"Others","summary":"Typically when my room gets messy, it’s during times that I’m either\nsuper busy, or in a bit of a mental low Having a messy room seems to be also correlated with having a messy mind. When my room is messy I typically have\n","title":"A Clean Room is a Clean Mind","type":"other"},{"content":"Politics is probably the most divisive it has ever been at the moment. People from both sides of the spectrum cast hate towards the other side, with a complete lack of empathy for another persons circumstances.\nPeople seem absolutely incapable of changing their opinions or even questioning their own.\nEven considering an opposing point is something that is not done by either side.\nViolence and chaos has ensued with the President of the \u0026lsquo;greatest country in the world\u0026rsquo; now being banned on all major social media sites.\nI watched the Social Dillemna earlier this year. All the people in that documentary were claiming that social media was causing politics to become even more divisive and push people to the fringes of both sides. They said, that a civil war was the most likely outcome.\nWith the violence and drama that we have seen over the last few days, it seems that we are well on the way to even more violence.\nThe solution - forget about politics.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s very easy to get fired up about politics, but here\u0026rsquo;s the thing. Each time a new president or prime minister is elected, they change almost nothing about your day to day life. The effect of the powers that be on your life is very minimal.\nIn my opinion, it makes very little sense to pay close attention to politics. All it will do is stir up your emotions for no reason.\nRise above the hate.\n","date":"10 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210110/","section":"Others","summary":"Politics is probably the most divisive it has ever been at the moment. People from both sides of the spectrum cast hate towards the other side, with a complete lack of empathy for another persons circumstances.\n","title":"Politics","type":"other"},{"content":"In 2009, Beyonce released her hit song called \u0026lsquo;Halo\u0026rsquo;. In the song Beyonce is singing about her love for a person with this magical Halo, about how this Halo is her saving grace.\nHalo\u0026rsquo;s are also associated with Angels and religious figures. A Halo being that little circle on an a head indicated that it that thing is somehow sacred or divine.\nHalo\u0026rsquo;s being associated with perfection, love and good times is nothing unusual. In fact, there is a psychological phenomena called the Halo Effect that explains how we can place metaphorical Halo\u0026rsquo;s on other people and things.\nThe Halo effect is\nthe tendency for positive impressions of a person, company, brand or product in one area to positively influence one\u0026rsquo;s opinion or feelings in other areas.\nThe original discovery of this effect came from studying the effect of attractiveness on other characteristics.\nConsider the following example,\nWe have person A and person B.\nA is not very attractive. A shows up in clothes that are ragged. They have a horrible haircut and smell.\nB on the other hand is a specimen. They are very well groomed with nice shoes and a slick haircut.\nWho do you think is more intelligent out of these two people? Despite having no information about their educational background or previous performance, we all assume that the well dressed people are more intelligent.\nThis effect is the Halo Effect.\nThe Halo effect is present in many areas of our lives, but in particular in Relationships, Investments and Wealth.\nRelationships # We create Halo\u0026rsquo;s around people and things that we have a positive impression of.\nIt also means that, in those people we think well of, we ignore bad attributes and only focus on the good ones.\nWhen you first start dating someone, things are going very well. It seems as though the person we are with has no flaws at all. That is, until around the 6 month mark when the Halo effect around that person starts to wear off. Instead of forgiving the other persons bad attributes, they now get noticed much more. While there may have been no disagreements or arguments until this point, this is where they can start to creep in.\nInvestment # When people invest more they get more out of it because the Halo Effect is being triggered by the investment.\nWhen someone pays 10k for a course or thing, they now have skin in the game to want that thing to be good. They use it often and seek to get the most out of it. This concept is clear when we consider things that are paid vs free.\nRecently a course was given to me and my club at University. Since we recieved this for free, participation has been very low and even now I think everyone has forgotten that they were even enrolled in it. If we had to pay to get into the course, we would likely all have paid much closer attention and aimed to get a lot more out of it.\nWealth # There is a Halo Effect of relative wealth, you think that those things hold the keys to your happiness.\nWhat we don\u0026rsquo;t notice is all the potential negatives that come with more wealth. Things like higher demands on your time and higher stress may make the juice not worth the squeeze.\nThe Halo effect means your first impressions are key! Make them count.\n","date":"10 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210109/","section":"Others","summary":"In 2009, Beyonce released her hit song called ‘Halo’. In the song Beyonce is singing about her love for a person with this magical Halo, about how this Halo is her saving grace.\nHalo’s are also associated with Angels and religious figures. A Halo being that little circle on an a head indicated that it that thing is somehow sacred or divine.\n","title":"The Halo Effect","type":"other"},{"content":"“Life is a journey, not a destination.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson\nSo often we look forward to the weekend. Look forward to the day that we will finally have X item.\n“Excellence/Perfection is not a destination; it is a continuous journey that never ends.” ― Brian Tracy\nI have written about this before.\n“In this world there are only two tragedies. One is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.”\n― Oscar Wilde\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t get what you want, you can still dream about how good your life would have been if you had that thing.\nIf you actually DO get what you want, now you have nowhere to hide. You realise that getting that thing you so badly wanted doesn\u0026rsquo;t fill the void at all. You are left so confused, wondering what to do with you life now that you have everything you could want, and yet you still feel horrible on the inside.\nThe solution to this problem, is to actually fix what is going on, on the inside of yourself.\nSee and notice all the beauty and wonder in the world that is all around you everyday.\n","date":"8 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210108/","section":"Others","summary":"“Life is a journey, not a destination.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson\nSo often we look forward to the weekend. Look forward to the day that we will finally have X item.\n“Excellence/Perfection is not a destination; it is a continuous journey that never ends.” ― Brian Tracy\n","title":"Life is a journey, not a destination","type":"other"},{"content":"I\u0026rsquo;m constantly running in to vegans who claim that meat is horrible for you and that a nice steak is going to send you to an early grave!\nFortunately for us meat-eaters out there, there is actually nothing wrong with some meat, and there\u0026rsquo;s science to back it up.\nVegans have to take supplements just to have a balanced diet.\nBecoming vegan basically means you need to become your own nutritionist. You need to be so careful about what you eat and how much of it. Is claiming not to hurt animals really worth the negative health implications of this?\nWe have things called pesticides. Animals are killed all the time in the creation of every single kind of food. If you care so much about not eating animals then you may as well just not eat any food, because eating food means you are killing animals somewhere along the way!\nI will now present a bunch of studies that show meat is NOT bad for you! (Incredible!)\nYou can show these to your vegan mates to get them to pipe down.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve split them up into general studies and ones that focus more on mental health. The emphasis on words is mine.\nGeneral Meat Studies # Unprocessed Red Meat and Processed Meat Consumption: Dietary Guideline Recommendations From the Nutritional Recommendations (NutriRECS) Consortium\nhttps://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M19-1621 This paper is by Gordon Guyatt who is the creator of evidence based medicine!\nThe panel suggests that adults continue current unprocessed red meat consumption (weak recommendation, low-certainty evidence). Similarly, the panel suggests adults continue current processed meat consumption (weak recommendation, low-certainty evidence).\nReduction of Red and Processed Meat Intake and Cancer Mortality and Incidence\nhttps://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M19-0699\nOf 118 articles (56 cohorts) with more than 6 million participants, 73 articles were eligible for the dose–response meta-analyses, 30 addressed cancer mortality, and 80 reported cancer incidence. Low-certainty evidence suggested that an intake reduction of 3 servings of unprocessed meat per week was associated with a very small reduction in overall cancer mortality over a lifetime. Evidence of low to very low certainty suggested that each intake reduction of 3 servings of processed meat per week was associated with very small decreases in overall cancer mortality over a lifetime; prostate cancer mortality; and incidence of esophageal, colorectal, and breast cancer.\nThe possible absolute effects of red and processed meat consumption on cancer mortality and incidence are very small, and the certainty of evidence is low to very low.\nIncredible stuff, 6 million participants and the effect of meat consumption on mortality is extremely small!\nRed and Processed Meat Consumption and Risk for All-Cause Mortality and Cardiometabolic Outcomes\nhttps://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M19-0655\nOf 61 articles reporting on 55 cohorts with more than 4 million participants, none addressed quality of life or satisfaction with diet. Low-certainty evidence was found that a reduction in unprocessed red meat intake of 3 servings per week is associated with a very small reduction in risk for cardiovascular mortality, stroke, myocardial infarction (MI), and type 2 diabetes. Likewise, low-certainty evidence was found that a reduction in processed meat intake of 3 servings per week is associated with a very small decrease in risk for all-cause mortality, cardiovascular mortality, stroke, MI, and type 2 diabetes.\nThe magnitude of association between red and processed meat consumption and all-cause mortality and adverse cardiometabolic outcomes is very small, and the evidence is of low certainty.\nFood consumption and the actual statistics of cardiovascular diseases: an epidemiological comparison of 42 European countries\nhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5040825/pdf/FNR-60-31694.pdf\nThe most significant dietary correlate of low CVD risk was high total fat and animal protein consumption\nA high fat and animal protein diet was in fact found to be the most significant correlate of DECREASED cardiovascular disease risk!\nShould dietary guidelines recommend low red meat intake?\nhttps://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2019.1657063\nWe argue that claims about the health dangers of red meat are not only improbable in the light of our evolutionary history, they are far from being supported by robust scientific evidence.\nControversy on the correlation of red and processed meat consumption with colorectal cancer risk: an Asian perspective\nhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29999423/\nFurthermore, most studies conducted in Asia showed that processed meat consumption is not related to the onset of cancer. Moreover, there have been no reports showing significant correlation between various factors that directly or indirectly affect colorectal cancer incidence, including processed meat products types, raw meat types, or cooking methods.\nTotal red meat intake of ≥0.5 servings/d does not negatively influence cardiovascular disease risk factors: a systemically searched meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials\nhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27881394/\nThe results from this systematically searched meta-analysis of RCTs support the idea that the consumption of ≥0.5 servings of total red meat/d does not influence blood lipids and lipoproteins or blood pressures.\nMeat and Mental Health # Meat and mental health: a systematic review of meat abstention and depression, anxiety, and related phenomena\nhttps://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2020.1741505\nThe majority of studies, and especially the higher quality studies, showed that those who avoided meat consumption had significantly higher rates or risk of depression, anxiety, and/or self-harm behaviors. There was mixed evidence for temporal relations, but study designs and a lack of rigor precluded inferences of causal relations. Our study does not support meat avoidance as a strategy to benefit psychological health\nThe Difference in Depression and Anxiety Rate between Vegetarians and Non-Vegetarians: A National Study among Icelandic Adolescents.\nhttps://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/22496/1/KarenGr%C3%A9ta_skemman.pdf\nResults suggested that there was no significant difference in depression and anxiety between vegetarians and nonvegetarians when both meat and fish consumption were examined. However there was a difference between the groups when meat consumption was looked at separately. Those who did not eat meat had significantly higher scores on the depression scale than those who ate meat\nVegetarian diet and mental disorders: results from a representative community survey\nhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466124/\nThe analysis of the respective ages at adoption of a vegetarian diet and onset of a mental disorder showed that the adoption of the vegetarian diet tends to follow the onset of mental disorders.\nNutrition and Health – The Association between Eating Behavior and Various Health Parameters: A Matched Sample Study\nhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3917888/\nOur results revealed that a vegetarian diet is related to a lower BMI and less frequent alcohol consumption. Moreover, our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life.\nConclusion # Incredible stuff here folks.\nOne of the main points of all this is that we can find studies that point to both the benefits and negatives of meat consumption. What this means is that\nMeat is likely not bad for you The method by which these finding are created is not accurate It\u0026rsquo;s definitely worth considering your own personal circumstances rather than some very general studies.\n","date":"7 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210107/","section":"Others","summary":"I’m constantly running in to vegans who claim that meat is horrible for you and that a nice steak is going to send you to an early grave!\nFortunately for us meat-eaters out there, there is actually nothing wrong with some meat, and there’s science to back it up.\n","title":"Is Meat Bad for You?","type":"other"},{"content":"Most people aren\u0026rsquo;t very happy.\nThey get mad easily.\nThey get \u0026lsquo;road rage\u0026rsquo;. Someone pulling in front of them is enough to ruin their day.\nThey go to the supermarket and yell at the workers.\nThey always find something to be annoyed or angry about.\nIn my opinion, this behaviour is just about one of the stupidest things you can do.\nSure, sometimes anger is warranted.\nBut most of the time, let it go, and stop letting these moments ruin your day.\nNo matter what happens, what things you get, where you go. Your experience of life will be approximately the same.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s not getting any better.\nYou happiness and experience of life is much more down to how you percieve it than to what kind of material possesions you may have.\nAmazing Experiences Aren\u0026rsquo;t That Amazing # I remember hearing people talk about the magnificent streets of Rome, the wonders of Europe. The beautiful streets of Croatia, the amazing beaches in Spain.\nThen I went there. I experienced all there was to experience in Europe.\nAnd you know what happened.\nI felt the same.\nWaiting for the bus to take me to another part of London had me feeling the same way I feel waiting for the bus to take me to just another day at school back home.\nThe Mona Lisa didn\u0026rsquo;t fill me with joy or wonder, it was just another painting.\nNow am I numb to happiness and appreciation? Maybe.\nHappiness and Appreciation # But the more and more that life goes on, I realise that this happiness and appreciation isn\u0026rsquo;t specific to certain items that society had deemed to be \u0026lsquo;special\u0026rsquo;.\nThis happiness and appreciation carries over to all other aspects of my life.\nAppreciating a great paiting in the Louvre is the same process as appreciating the beautiful trees on your walk to work in the morning.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all the same.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all what you make of it.\n","date":"6 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210106/","section":"Others","summary":"Most people aren’t very happy.\nThey get mad easily.\nThey get ‘road rage’. Someone pulling in front of them is enough to ruin their day.\nThey go to the supermarket and yell at the workers.\nThey always find something to be annoyed or angry about.\n","title":"The Pursuit Of Happiness","type":"other"},{"content":"I see people doing great things.\nThey set the bar higher.\nDo the impossible.\nBut is this due to actual skill? or just dumb luck?\nSomeone could buy a lottery ticket and win $1 Million on their first try. Is that an act of genius?\nSometimes in the case of successful people, it can be difficult to distinguish if the person has their success as a result of luck, or of skill (or maybe both).\nIt\u0026rsquo;s worth keeping in mind though that not all successful people have some crazy talent or skill. They just put themselves in a place to get lucky.\nThrough all the biographies and stories I have read about successful people achieving great things, I know the following is true.\nYou can\u0026rsquo;t get anywhere without taking risks.\n","date":"4 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210105/","section":"Others","summary":"I see people doing great things.\nThey set the bar higher.\nDo the impossible.\nBut is this due to actual skill? or just dumb luck?\nSomeone could buy a lottery ticket and win $1 Million on their first try. Is that an act of genius?\n","title":"Risk Taking and Success","type":"other"},{"content":"I read a lot of books last year. 52 to be exact.\nSome people might ask, why on earth would you read that many? Surely you can\u0026rsquo;t use knowledge from all of them? Surely they haven\u0026rsquo;t helped you do anything?\nI think for me, the reasons I read books are the following.\nThey change my identity.\nWhen I am reading books, I get known as someone that reads books. This makes me also interested in other personal development topics and makes me generally interested in a wide range of topics.\nIt also means that I can connect better with those people that I want to meet. Typically, those other more succesful people, also read books. From all the people I\u0026rsquo;ve seen online, it is very rare that a successful person has not read books like \u0026lsquo;How to Win Friends and Influence People\u0026rsquo; or \u0026lsquo;Think and Grow Rich\u0026rsquo;.\nExposure to a wide range of topics\nLast year alone I read books about Finance, meditation, spirituality, global history and technology. This constant stream of interesting inputs makes me a much more interesting person. I am able to talk to people about a wide range of topics on a deep level.\nIt means that when I am faced with challenges, I can reflect on all those examples of people that I have read about, and can consider paths forward that I would not have considered on my own.\nSo that is why I read books. I find it\u0026rsquo;s much more interesting to spend my time doing that rather than listening to music or watching gaming videos on youtube.\nJames\n","date":"4 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210104/","section":"Others","summary":"I read a lot of books last year. 52 to be exact.\nSome people might ask, why on earth would you read that many? Surely you can’t use knowledge from all of them? Surely they haven’t helped you do anything?\n","title":"Why Read Books?","type":"other"},{"content":"This is a short post reviewing the lessons that I learnt during 2020.\nwanting things too much will push them away This happened to me a few times this year.\nI wanted things to happen so bad. Too bad.\nI was sitting at my desk getting ready for a video interview. This was the final interview for the job application process.\nI was very keen to get this job. Too keen.\nThe interview was progressing well.\nMy internet started getting slow.\nThe interviewers asked if I could turn my video off as it was making the call slow down.\nEven though I had done all my video calls from this exact position, my setup had let me down.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t get the job.\nAnother time.\nI had a girl coming over to my place.\nI wanted her to come over really bad. Too bad.\nHer car broke down on the way over.\nShe never made it.\nI think sometimes we can want things to happen to badly that the thing doesn\u0026rsquo;t actually eventuate. For example consider someone really needy in a relationship. They want it to work so badly that the other person is actually getting turned off by their enthusiasm. Or consider a business context where you offer someone all they could want, and more, but they end up pulling out of the deal because it seems too good to be true.\nThis year, I will focus on the process, more than the outcomes. I will make sure that I am not focussed on certain events happening, but more on my present experience and enjoying each moment.\nwork hard and you can get results In 2020 I did pretty decent at university. I had 5 High Distinctions and 3 Distinctions giving me a GPA for the year of 6.6/7.\nThis was my best full year at University ever.\nIt showed me that I do have the capacity to get good results. That I can achieve very good things if I set my mind to it.\nJames.\n","date":"4 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210103/","section":"Others","summary":"This is a short post reviewing the lessons that I learnt during 2020.\nwanting things too much will push them away This happened to me a few times this year.\nI wanted things to happen so bad. Too bad.\n","title":"Lessons from 2020","type":"other"},{"content":"So much of goal setting this new year is about what THING you want to achieve. Rarely do we ask what we must become in order to get those things that we want.\nThe reality is, that if we were the kind of person that could get what we want, then we would already have it. Changing you habits and fundemental personality traits to attain your goals is the only way to achieve your goals.\nConsider the following from \u0026ldquo;Design Your Best Year Ever - Darren Hardy\u0026rdquo;\nGoal: I am earning an extra $100,000 in income this year.\nQuestion: Who do I have to become to achieve this?\nAnswer: I am a smart, confident, and effective leader.\nI am a master of time efficiency. I focus solely on high-payoff and high-productivity actions.\nI wake up an hour earlier and review my priority objectives each morning.\nI fuel my body properly so I am energetic and highly effective each work hour.\nI am influential and passionate.\nThis answer can now be used as an affirmation to yourself everyday as you chase down your goals.\n","date":"4 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210102/","section":"Others","summary":"So much of goal setting this new year is about what THING you want to achieve. Rarely do we ask what we must become in order to get those things that we want.\nThe reality is, that if we were the kind of person that could get what we want, then we would already have it. Changing you habits and fundemental personality traits to attain your goals is the only way to achieve your goals.\n","title":"Who do I have to become to achieve this?","type":"other"},{"content":"This year is a big one. 2021.\nThis year I have structured my goals according to the following plan. If you haven\u0026rsquo;t done something similar already, I highly recommend it.\nStep One # Pick 3 goals.\nMy three goals for this year are\nRead 60 Books Bench Press 100kg Earn money online Step Two # Outline the 2/3 biggest things you can do to achieve those goals\nRead 60 Books\nListen to audiobooks in the car and during commutes Read 25 minutes every day Bench Press 100kg\nGym regularly (4/5 times per week) Track workouts Track Diet (myfitnesspal or similar) Earn money online\ncreate something every day (~1 hour) Publish the things that I create Step Three # Create a day plan for how you will use your time to achieve those goals.\nGonna leave this out here, but as I\u0026rsquo;ll be starting full-time work I now have much more stability in my schedule and this should make routines easier to create.\n","date":"1 January 2021","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20210101/","section":"Others","summary":"This year is a big one. 2021.\nThis year I have structured my goals according to the following plan. If you haven’t done something similar already, I highly recommend it.\nStep One # Pick 3 goals.\n","title":"New Year - New Me","type":"other"},{"content":"View my 2020 Reading challenge on Goodreads here.\nHere are my top 5 books that I read this year (in no particular order):\nHigh Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard The Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Iger Range by David Epstein The Alter Ego Effect by Todd Herman The Dictator\u0026rsquo;s Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita A Year of Books # This year was an incredible year. For the first time in my life, I managed to get through 52 books in a single year. On average, one book per week.\nI have learnt so much through this process. It\u0026rsquo;s been amazing to hear from so many amazing people and gain insight from so many different perspectives.\nBelow is a complete list of each book I read or listened to this year.\nThe vast majority of these books were listened to either while I was in the car or on walks. Most books go for about 8-10 hours. If you listen on 2x speed that doesn\u0026rsquo;t affect your comprehension and means you can listen to a book in 4-5 hours. If you commute to work for 20-30 minutes a day. You can listen to a book every week just during your commute.\nEven though this might not be the most optimal way to take in the information from a book, it\u0026rsquo;s still much better to listen to a book than to be listening to music or some other meaningless activity.\nThe Future # Next year I\u0026rsquo;m going to step it up a notch. The goal is to get through 60 books in 2021! Hopefully more Digital and Physical books than I read this year.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re interested in staying up to date, drop your email in the subscription box at the bottom of this post.\nThis wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be a complete list without listing those books that I want to read next year. Here are some of the books that I am most keen to read!\nThe Practice: Shipping Creative Work Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life Hannibal and Me: What History\u0026rsquo;s Greatest Military Strategist Can Teach Us About Success and Failure The Immortality Key: Uncovering the Secret History of the Religion with No Name Reality Transurfing Steps I-V 2020 Book List # So now onto the books. The books I most recently read are at the top, descending down to the books I read at the beginning of the year.\nThe brackets () indicate how the book was read. (Audio) means I listened to it, (Physical) means I read a physical copy of the book and (Digital) means I read a digital version of the book.\nOf the 52 books, 41 were (Audio), 3 (Physical) and 8 were (Digital).\nDecember 2020 - 6 Books # Raise Your Game by Alan Stein Jr. (Audio)\nA book about the stuff needed to operate at a high level. A lot of interesting concepts about what it takes to lead in a team.\nTurn your \u0026ldquo;have to\u0026rsquo;s\u0026rdquo; into \u0026ldquo;get to\u0026rsquo;s\u0026rdquo;\nMeltdown by Thomas E. Woods Jr. (Audio)\nA book about the 2008 financial crisis in America. The author argues from an Austrian economics view that the federal reserve is negatively impacting the free markets and that it\u0026rsquo;s intervention in these kinds of crises generally makes this worse and not better.\nAlthough we can\u0026rsquo;t really change what government does, it\u0026rsquo;s cool to see how things work and here perspectives on why things aren\u0026rsquo;t operating as optimally as they could be.\nGreenlights by Matthew McConaughey (Audio)\nA wonderful autobiography by the man himself, this book gave me a great insight into the rise from popular schoolboy to Oscar-Winner. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know much about Matthew but hearing him on podcasts talking about his book got me really interested. He is a great example of always pushing the boundaries and sticking to your guns.\n“We all step in shit from time to time. We hit roadblocks, we fuck up, we get fucked, we get sick, we don’t get what we want, we cross thousands of “could have done better”s and “wish that wouldn’t have happened”s in life. Stepping in shit is inevitable, so let’s either see it as good luck, or figure out how to do it less often.” ― Matthew McConaughey, Greenlights\nThe Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry (Physical)\nA cute little book about a Little Prince. Many small lessons in here but the main one for me was appreciating what we have. Choosing to love those things that are all around us even when there are better options.\n“All grown-ups were once children\u0026hellip; but only few of them remember it.” ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince\nThe Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Iger (Audio)\nMagnificent book about the life of the CEO of Disney. Iger transformed Disney and has successfully lead them to success in the digital age. He is a great example of leadership and making things happen.\n“Optimism. One of the most important qualities of a good leader is optimism, a pragmatic enthusiasm for what can be achieved. Even in the face of difficult choices and less than ideal outcomes, an optimistic leader does not yield to pessimism. Simply put, people are not motivated or energized by pessimists.” ― Robert Iger, The Ride of a Lifetime: Lessons Learned from 15 Years as CEO of the Walt Disney Company\nThat Will Never Work by Marc Randolph (Audio)\nA great story of the founding of Netflix. The founders had setback after setback and still continued. Netflix is now an immensely successful company. A story about perserverence and overcoming challenges, as well as self-belief.\n“As you get older, if you’re at all self-aware, you learn two important things about yourself: what you like, and what you’re good at. Anyone who gets to spend his day doing both of those things is a lucky man.” ― Marc Randolph, That Will Never Work: The Birth of Netflix and the Amazing Life of an Idea\nNovember 2020 - 4 Books # Being Mortal by Atul Gawande (Audio)\nThis was a book about aged care, and about how the way we deal with the dying in the western world isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily optimal.\nWhen someone is old and going to die soon, what do you do? Do you give them treatment to extend their life by a few months, or let them die peacefully?\nThis book is all about coming to terms with death and how medicine can improve that process.\n“In the end, people don\u0026rsquo;t view their life as merely the average of all its moments—which, after all, is mostly nothing much plus some sleep. For human beings, life is meaningful because it is a story. A story has a sense of a whole, and its arc is determined by the significant moments, the ones where something happens. Measurements of people\u0026rsquo;s minute-by-minute levels of pleasure and pain miss this fundamental aspect of human existence. A seemingly happy life maybe empty. A seemingly difficult life may be devoted to a great cause. We have purposes larger than ourselves.” ― Atul Gawande, Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End****\nHell Yeah or No by Derek Sivers (Digital)\nThis was a book that is a compilation of blog posts. There are some excellent short ones in here. One of my favourite ideas was that everybody\u0026rsquo;s ideas seem obvious to them. There are things that I know that seem obvious that others would love to learn how to do.\nMany great bits in this book.\n“People often ask me what they can do to be moresuccessful. I say disconnect. Even if just for a few hours. Unplug. Turn off your phone and Wi-Fi. Focus. Write. Practice. Create. That’s what’s rare and valuable these days.\nYou get no competitive edge from consuming the same stuff everyone else is consuming.” ― Derek Sivers, Hell Yeah or No: what\u0026rsquo;s worth doing\nHow Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton M. Christensen (Digital)\nThis was a great book about how to measure success in your life. Is financial success worth the negative impacts it may have on your family life? These are topics well worth considering and are discussed at length in the book.\n“It\u0026rsquo;s easier to hold your principles 100 percent of the time than it is to hold them 98 percent of the time.” ― Clayton M. Christensen, How Will You Measure Your Life?\nCrucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson (Audio)\nAn excellent book about how to conduct yourself in high pressure conversations and situations. I learnt that it\u0026rsquo;s always better to put your ideas forward into the \u0026lsquo;pool of knowledge\u0026rsquo; rather than leave them in your head.\n“People who are skilled at dialogue do their best to make it safe for everyone to add their meaning to the shared pool\u0026ndash;even ideas that at first glance appear controversial, wrong, or at odds with their own beliefs. Now, obviously they don\u0026rsquo;t agree with every idea; they simply do their best to ensure that all ideas find their way into the open.” ― Kerry Patterson, Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High\nOctober 2020 - 4 Books # The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton (Audio)\nA book about modern monetary theory and how the government running a deficit is not a problem at all. Governments that create their own currency face not actual limit on how much currency they can produce. The only real limit is the inflation of the currency.\nWith this in mind, the author suggests creating a jobs guarantee. This means that everyone without work can have a job working for the government in some community role. Since this just means the economy would be operating at capacity the wages for these people should not create inflation.\nA very interesting book about some economics that is increasingly being spoken about in policy discussions.\nThe Innovators by Walter Isaacson (Audio)\nInnovations come from all kinds of places. This book was all about the progression of computers from simple calculators in the 19th century up until modern day smartphones that we have today. I found it really cool to hear how various innovations occurred and how things really came to be as they are in the world of computing.\nOne thing that struck me in this book is the amount of collaboration that has gone on in computing. There are many parts of computing, like the internet for example, that there is no single \u0026lsquo;inventor\u0026rsquo;. A group of people, each who contributed their own small part eventually led to the creation of many of the technologies we have today.\n“But the main lesson to draw from the birth of computers is that innovation is usually a group effort, involving collaboration between visionaries and engineers, and that creativity comes from drawing on many sources. Only in storybooks do inventions come like a thunderbolt, or a lightbulb popping out of the head of a lone individual in a basement or garret or garage.” ― Walter Isaacson, The Innovators: How a Group of Inventors, Hackers, Geniuses, and Geeks Created the Digital Revolution\nFahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury (Audio)\nImagine firefighters except their job is to burn all the books in the world. This is what this book is about. It contains many lessons about knowledge protection and about how history must be learnt from and not destroyed.\n“Why is it,\u0026quot; he said, one time, at the subway entrance, \u0026ldquo;I feel I\u0026rsquo;ve known you so many years?\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;Because I like you,\u0026rdquo; she said, \u0026ldquo;and I don\u0026rsquo;t want anything from you.” ― Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451\nThe Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas Taleb (Audio)\nMost of the risks we face in life and markets are not those we consider, but those that come from out of the blue. This entire book is about how you can\u0026rsquo;t be prepared for every scenario, a black swan event could be right around the corner.\n“Missing a train is only painful if you run after it! Likewise, not matching the idea of success others expect from you is only painful if that’s what you are seeking.” ― Nassim Nicholas Taleb, The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable\nSeptember 2020 - 3 Books # Shoe Dog by Phil Knight (Physical)\nThe story of Nike and how it came to be. Like some of the other books I have read, the story details Knight\u0026rsquo;s journey of stuggle and near bankruptcy. An excellent read of how to create a wonderful company and enjoy the ride along the way.\n“Life is growth. You grow or you die.” ― Phil Knight, Shoe Dog\nThe Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck (Audio)\nA short book about understanding yourself and how to manage your emotions.\n“Until you value yourself, you won\u0026rsquo;t value your time. Until you value your time, you will not do anything with it.” ― M. Scott Peck, The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values and Spiritual Growth\nHow to Get Rich by Felix Dennis (Audio)\nFelix seems like a wonderful character and this came across in his book. He details his stories of his various magazine companies and how these principles can be applies to other business ventures.\n“Having a great idea is simply not enough. The eventual goal is vastly more important than any idea. It is how ideas are implemented that counts in the long run” ― Felix Dennis, How to Get Rich\nAugust 2020 - 7 Books # Discipline Equals Freedom by Jocko Willink (Audio)\nAnother short book by the great and powerful Jocko Willink. This book is all about managing discipline in the mess of life.\n“Don’t expect to be motivated every day to get out there and make things happen. You won’t be. Don’t count on motivation. Count on Discipline.” ― Jocko Willink, Discipline Equals Freedom: Field Manual\nScrum by Jeff Sutherland (Audio)\nScrum details what has become the agile methodology of project management. This process means teams work in short sprints of getting things done rather than draw out projects. This style of working has meant that teams are significantly more productive and the people in those teams are much happier.\n“No Heroics. If you need a hero to get things done, you have a problem. Heroic effort should be viewed as a failure of planning.” ― Jeff Sutherland, Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time\nIron John by Robert Bly (Audio)\nThis is a book all about masculinity and the way society has suppressed it in recent times. The themes are told through a story about a wild man which makes it an interesting read.\nMost American men today do not have enough awakened or living warriors inside to defend their soul houses. And most people, men or women, do not know what genuine outward or inward warriors would look like, or feel like.” ― Robert Bly, Iron John: A Book About Men\nThe Tactical Guide to Women by Shawn T. Smith (Audio)\nThe landscape of relationships is a complicated one. With divorce rates at very high levels, it\u0026rsquo;s more important than ever to understand how to mitigate risks in relationships. This book outlines the main ways in which men can reduce their risks in life and with women.\nPower vs. Force by David R. Hawkins (Digital)\nThis book claims that everyone is operating at a certain energy level, and that everything around us is also operating with a certain frequency. I learnt that a thought of love is immensely more powerful than a negative one, and now I seek to reduce negative thought patterns as much as possible. I seek to replace them with \u0026lsquo;higher energy\u0026rsquo; thoughts.\n“We change the world not by what we say or do but as a consequence of what we have become.” ― David R. Hawkins, Power vs. Force: The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior, author\u0026rsquo;s Official Revised Edition\nBreath by James Nestor (Audio)\nEver thought about your breathing? It turns out that breathing through your mouth is incredibly bad for you, and breathing through your nose is much better. This book outlines the authors journey to discover better breathing techniques.\n“the greatest indicator of life span wasn’t genetics, diet, or the amount of daily exercise, as many had suspected. It was lung capacity.” ― James Nestor, Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art\nFooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Taleb (Audio)\nAnother one of Taleb\u0026rsquo;s books on how randomness can fool us. An important idea is that we need to be able to distinguish between what is lucky and what is skillful, it is not always obvious.\n“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” ― Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Fooled by Randomness: The Hidden Role of Chance in Life and in the Markets\nJuly 2020 - 2 Books # Sell or Be Sold by Grant Cardone (Audio)\nI haven\u0026rsquo;t had to do much selling in my life but this book was an excellent guide on how to do that. Cardone is fanatic about making deals and this book is an excellent guide on how to sell more.\n“Become so sold, so convinced, so committed to your company, product, and service that you believe it would be a terrible thing for the buyer to do business anywhere else with any other product.” ― Grant Cardone, Sell or Be Sold: How to Get Your Way in Business and in Life\nThe Alchemist by Paulo Coelho (Audio)\nAn excellent story about a young man uncovering his personal legend. There are so many lessons in this book, I will definitely come back to read this in the future.\n“It\u0026rsquo;s the possibility of having a dream come true that makes life interesting.” ― Paulo Coelho, The Alchemist\nJune 2020 - 4 Books # The Third Door by Alex Banayan (Audio)\nI couldn\u0026rsquo;t stop listening to this book. Alex has an amazing story of meeting people and finding a way to get what he wants, against the odds. The main idea of this book is that lots of successful people didn\u0026rsquo;t take the conventional route, they didn\u0026rsquo;t go through the main entrance or even the VIP entrance. They found the third door.\n“Maybe the hardest part about taking a risk isn’t whether to take it, it’s when to take it. It’s never clear how much momentum is enough to justify leaving school. It’s never clear when it’s the right time to quit your job. Big decisions are rarely clear when you’re making them—they’re only clear looking back. The best you can do is take one careful step at a time.” ― Alex Banayan, The Third Door: The Wild Quest to Uncover How the World\u0026rsquo;s Most Successful People Launched Their Careers: The Wild Quest to Uncover How the World\u0026rsquo;s Most Successful People Launched Their Careers\nBanker to the Poor by Muhammad Yunus (Digital)\nThe Grameen bank was started to provide micro-lending services to the poor. Now it is an extremely successful bank providing services all around the world. This book was the story of how it was created and grown.\n“People.. were poor not because they were stupid or lazy. They worked all day long, doing complex physical tasks. They were poor because the financial institution in the country did not help them widen their economic base.” ― Muhammad Yunus, Banker to the Poor: Micro-Lending and the Battle Against World Poverty\nMaximum Achievement by Brian Tracy (Audio)\nA typical self-help book. This book contains so many useful nuggets of wisdom. In particular I really liked the power of positive thinking.\n“Positive expectations are the mark of the superior personality.” ― Brian Tracy, Maximum Achievement: Strategies and Skills that Will Unlock Your Hidden Powers to Succeed\nOn Power by Gene Simmons (Audio)\nThe lead singer of KISS writing a book! One thing I really got out of this book was that your work and the rest of your life are not seperate, they are the same. There is no point trying to seperate your life in these ways. Another point the author makes is that the best way to provide for your family isn\u0026rsquo;t to be there for them and lot\u0026rsquo;s of time with them, the best way to provide for your family is to produce.\n“So much of our popular mythology focuses on the negative aspects of power that we forget that gaining power is, perhaps, the only way to enable ourselves to make a difference in our lives and in the lives of others.” ― Gene Simmons, On Power: My Journey Through the Corridors of Power and How You Can Get More Power\nMay 2020 - 3 Books # Range by David Epstein (Audio)\nRoger Federer played many sports before finally choosing tennis at age 16. Tiger Woods became a golfer when he was about 5. Which path is better? Epstein argues that getting a range of experiences and becoming a generalist is the way to go for a more successful life. He says that although early specialisation can put you ahead of the pack, it\u0026rsquo;s often a variety of experiences that leads to new discoveries.\n“Modern work demands knowledge transfer: the ability to apply knowledge to new situations and different domains. Our most fundamental thought processes have changed to accommodate increasing complexity and the need to derive new patterns rather than rely only on familiar ones. Our conceptual classification schemes provide a scaffolding for connecting knowledge, making it accessible and flexible.” ― David Epstein, Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World\nIf You\u0026rsquo;re Not First, You\u0026rsquo;re Last by Grant Cardone (Audio)\nGrant discusses how to dominate your market and your career.\n“Problems are opportunities, and conquered opportunities equal money earned.” ― Grant Cardone, If You\u0026rsquo;re Not First, You\u0026rsquo;re Last: Sales Strategies to Dominate Your Market and Beat Your Competition\nHow to Become CEO by Jeffrey J. Fox (Digital)\nMany useful tips in here like how to manage office politics and to move up in your organisation.\n“Nothing gives one person so much advantage over another as to remain cool and unruffled under all circumstances. —Thomas Jefferson” ― Jeffrey J. Fox, How to Become CEO: The Rules for Rising to the Top of Any Organization\nApril 2020 - 3 Books # E-Myth Revisited by by Michael E. Gerber (Audio)\nA book about how people wanting to start a business can end up just doing their job for themselves rather than running the business. Doing your job and running a business are distinct skills and it\u0026rsquo;s important to realise this before striking out on your own.\n“The difference between great people and everyone else is that great people create their lives actively, while everyone else is created by their lives, passively waiting to see where life takes them next. The difference between the two is living fully and just existing.” ― Gerber Michael E., The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don\u0026rsquo;t Work and What to Do About It\nSubliminal by Leonard Mlodinow (Audio)\nFilled with many wonderful examples of how our subconscious mind runs our decisions.\n“We believe that when we choose anything, judge a stranger and even fall in love, we understand the principal factors that influenced us. Very often nothing could be further from the truth. As a result, many of our most basic assumptions about ourselves, and society, are false.” ― Leonard Mlodinow\nEfficiency by Wall Street Playboys (Digital)\nI found out about this book on twitter. It\u0026rsquo;s all about how to make your life as efficient as possible for money, girls and fun.\nMarch 2020 - 8 Books # Design Your Best Year Ever by Darren Hardy (Digital)\nA book that I will probably read again at the beginning of 2021. Filled with excellent advice about goal setting and acheiving the things that you want.\nNever Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi (Audio)\nA really cool book about creating a social circle and connecting with those people that are interesting and can help you.\n“Success in any field, but especially in business is about working with people, not against them.” ― Keith Ferrazzi, Never Eat Alone: And Other Secrets to Success, One Relationship at a Time\nThe Magic of Thinking Big by David J. Schwartz (Audio)\nThis was an outstanding book on the power of belief. Similar to the growth mindset, believing you can do a thing dramatically changes how you look at scenario or opportunity.\n“Believe it can be done. When you believe something can be done, really believe, your mind will find the ways to do it. Believing a solution paves the way to solution.” ― David J. Schwartz, The Magic of Thinking Big\nThe Dip by Seth Godin (Digital)\nA great book on knowing when to quit. Using the 80/20 principle we know that people at the top get way more rewards than those in the middle. It\u0026rsquo;s important, then, to consider which things we can make it to the top and discard the rest.\n“Quit or be exceptional. Average is for losers.” ― Seth Godin, The Dip: A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit\nThe Winner Effect by Ian H. Robertson (Audio)\nWinning makes you win more! This was a super interesting insight into what makes winners and how winning has such a profound effect on your ability to win again in the future.\nHard Times Create Strong Men by Stefan Aarnio (Audio)\nStefan is a great example of masculinity and getting what you want in life. He outlines how society is getting weaker due to the presence of weak men, and how this will open the door for strong men to take back control.\n“The power of fasting to rebalance a man is usually combined with prayer and was used by powerful men such as Aristotle, Socrates, Jesus, Mohammad, Ghandi, Moses, Marcus Aurelius, and many others. These men would fast for up to 40 days on just water, and this was a major source of their spiritual power, clarity, and reasoning.” ― Stefan Aarnio, Hard Times Create Strong Men: Why the World Craves Leadership and How You Can Step Up to Fill the Need\nUltralearning by Scott H. Young (Audio)\nA really interesting insight into what makes a fast learner. Scott managed to go through an entire 4 year MIT degree in just one year, using the principles outlined in the book.\n“By taking notes as questions instead of answers, you generate the material to practice retrieval on later.” ― Scott H. Young, Ultralearning: Master Hard Skills, Outsmart the Competition, and Accelerate Your Career\nThe Alter Ego Effect by Todd Herman (Audio)\nAn insane book about Alter Ego\u0026rsquo;s. Many people use alter-egos like Elton John and Beyonce. These allow people to step into character and break through performance and creative barriers.\n“Cary Grant once said, “I pretended to be somebody I wanted to be until finally, I became that person. Or he became me.” ― Todd Herman, The Alter Ego Effect: The Power of Secret Identities to Transform Your Life\nFebruary 2020 - 5 Books # The Effective Executive by Peter F. Drucker (Audio)\n“It is more productive to convert an opportunity into results than to solve a problem - which only restores the equilibrium of yesterday.” ― Peter F. Drucker, The Effective Executive: The Definitive Guide to Getting the Right Things Done\nHyperfocus by Chris Bailey (Audio)\nA very interesting book about the benefits of complete focus, as well as the benefits of scattered focus time.\n“how important it is to choose what you consume and pay attention to: just as you are what you eat, when it comes to the information you consume, you are what you choose to focus on. Consuming valuable material in general makes scatterfocus sessions even more productive.” ― Chris Bailey, Hyperfocus: The New Science of Attention, Productivity, and Creativity\nLetting Go by David R. Hawkins (Physical)\nAn amazing book about energy levels and how letting go of your attachment to things can help you to transcend them.\n“The other person merely mirrors back what we are projecting onto them.” ― David R. Hawkins, Letting Go: The Pathway of Surrender\nThe 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey (Audio)\nA classic book. My favourite habit is the \u0026lsquo;seek win-win\u0026rsquo;. When I am coming to an agreement with people I know how important it is to work with them and create a winning scenario for both parties.\n“to learn and not to do is really not to learn. To know and not to do is really not to know.” ― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change\nFactfulness by Hans Rosling (Audio)\nContrary to popular opinion, the human race is in the best place it has ever been. We are all safer and more connected than ever before. This book outlines all the ways that we are living the best human lives ever.\n“Forming your worldview by relying on the media would be like forming your view about me by looking only at a picture of my foot.” ― Hans Rosling, Factfulness: Ten Reasons We\u0026rsquo;re Wrong About the World—and Why Things Are Better Than You Think\nJanuary 2020 - 3 Books # The Dictator\u0026rsquo;s Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita (Audio)\nEver wondered how on Earth the next soccer World Cup is being held in Qatar? This is clearly the result of corruption, and this book outlines exactly why that is the case. This book contains great insight into how politics and money actually work, and what the incentives are for people to stay in power. Things like foreign aid were super interesting to me.\n“This is the essential lesson of politics: in the end ruling is the objective, not ruling well.” ― Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, The Dictator\u0026rsquo;s Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics\nIndistractable by Nir Eyal (Audio)\nDistractions are all around us. In particular things like phone usage can really destroy your productive working time. This book outlines how to become \u0026lsquo;Indistractable\u0026rsquo;.\n“The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.” ― Nir Eyal, Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life\nHigh Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard (Audio)\nThis book was incredible. There were so many insights that I gleamed from this book, the most important one was about being intentional with your actions. So many times we go to work or go out with friends with no aim for what we want to get out of the evening or the event. We just kind of go along with everything. Setting a clear intention with what you want to get out of things before you enter a situation will set you up much better for getting what you want.\n“Be more intentional about who you want to become. Have vision beyond your current circumstances. Imagine your best future self, and start acting like that person today.” ― Brendon Burchard, High Performance Habits: How Extraordinary People Become That Way\nThanks for getting this far! Please connect with me below.\n","date":"31 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/52-books-in-a-year/","section":"Writing","summary":"View my 2020 Reading challenge on Goodreads here.\nHere are my top 5 books that I read this year (in no particular order):\nHigh Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard The Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Iger Range by David Epstein The Alter Ego Effect by Todd Herman The Dictator’s Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita A Year of Books # This year was an incredible year. For the first time in my life, I managed to get through 52 books in a single year. On average, one book per week.\n","title":"52 Books in a Year","type":"posts"},{"content":"View my 2020 Reading challenge on Goodreads here.\nHere are my top 5 books that I read this year (in no particular order):\nHigh Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard The Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Iger Range by David Epstein The Alter Ego Effect by Todd Herman The Dictator\u0026rsquo;s Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita A Year of Books # This year was an incredible year. For the first time in my life, I managed to get through 52 books in a single year. On average, one book per week.\nI have learnt so much through this process. It\u0026rsquo;s been amazing to hear from so many amazing people and gain insight from so many different perspectives.\nBelow is a complete list of each book I read or listened to this year.\nThe vast majority of these books were listened to either while I was in the car or on walks. Most books go for about 8-10 hours. If you listen on 2x speed that doesn\u0026rsquo;t affect your comprehension and means you can listen to a book in 4-5 hours. If you commute to work for 20-30 minutes a day. You can listen to a book every week just during your commute.\nEven though this might not be the most optimal way to take in the information from a book, it\u0026rsquo;s still much better to listen to a book than to be listening to music or some other meaningless activity.\nThe Future # Next year I\u0026rsquo;m going to step it up a notch. The goal is to get through 60 books in 2021! Hopefully more Digital and Physical books than I read this year.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;re interested in staying up to date, drop your email in the subscription box at the bottom of this post.\nThis wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be a complete list without listing those books that I want to read next year. Here are some of the books that I am most keen to read!\nThe Practice: Shipping Creative Work Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life Hannibal and Me: What History\u0026rsquo;s Greatest Military Strategist Can Teach Us About Success and Failure The Immortality Key: Uncovering the Secret History of the Religion with No Name Reality Transurfing Steps I-V 2020 Book List # So now onto the books. The books I most recently read are at the top, descending down to the books I read at the beginning of the year.\nThe brackets () indicate how the book was read. (Audio) means I listened to it, (Physical) means I read a physical copy of the book and (Digital) means I read a digital version of the book.\nOf the 52 books, 41 were (Audio), 3 (Physical) and 8 were (Digital).\nDecember 2020 - 6 Books # Raise Your Game by Alan Stein Jr. (Audio)\nA book about the stuff needed to operate at a high level. A lot of interesting concepts about what it takes to lead in a team.\nTurn your \u0026ldquo;have to\u0026rsquo;s\u0026rdquo; into \u0026ldquo;get to\u0026rsquo;s\u0026rdquo;\nMeltdown by Thomas E. Woods Jr. (Audio)\nA book about the 2008 financial crisis in America. The author argues from an Austrian economics view that the federal reserve is negatively impacting the free markets and that it\u0026rsquo;s intervention in these kinds of crises generally makes this worse and not better.\nAlthough we can\u0026rsquo;t really change what government does, it\u0026rsquo;s cool to see how things work and here perspectives on why things aren\u0026rsquo;t operating as optimally as they could be.\nGreenlights by Matthew McConaughey (Audio)\nA wonderful autobiography by the man himself, this book gave me a great insight into the rise from popular schoolboy to Oscar-Winner. I didn\u0026rsquo;t know much about Matthew but hearing him on podcasts talking about his book got me really interested. He is a great example of always pushing the boundaries and sticking to your guns.\n“We all step in shit from time to time. We hit roadblocks, we fuck up, we get fucked, we get sick, we don’t get what we want, we cross thousands of “could have done better”s and “wish that wouldn’t have happened”s in life. Stepping in shit is inevitable, so let’s either see it as good luck, or figure out how to do it less often.” ― Matthew McConaughey, Greenlights\nThe Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry (Physical)\nA cute little book about a Little Prince. Many small lessons in here but the main one for me was appreciating what we have. Choosing to love those things that are all around us even when there are better options.\n“All grown-ups were once children\u0026hellip; but only few of them remember it.” ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince\nThe Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Iger (Audio)\nMagnificent book about the life of the CEO of Disney. Iger transformed Disney and has successfully lead them to success in the digital age. He is a great example of leadership and making things happen.\n“Optimism. One of the most important qualities of a good leader is optimism, a pragmatic enthusiasm for what can be achieved. Even in the face of difficult choices and less than ideal outcomes, an optimistic leader does not yield to pessimism. Simply put, people are not motivated or energized by pessimists.” ― Robert Iger, The Ride of a Lifetime: Lessons Learned from 15 Years as CEO of the Walt Disney Company\nThat Will Never Work by Marc Randolph (Audio)\nA great story of the founding of Netflix. The founders had setback after setback and still continued. Netflix is now an immensely successful company. A story about perserverence and overcoming challenges, as well as self-belief.\n“As you get older, if you’re at all self-aware, you learn two important things about yourself: what you like, and what you’re good at. Anyone who gets to spend his day doing both of those things is a lucky man.” ― Marc Randolph, That Will Never Work: The Birth of Netflix and the Amazing Life of an Idea\nNovember 2020 - 4 Books # Being Mortal by Atul Gawande (Audio)\nThis was a book about aged care, and about how the way we deal with the dying in the western world isn\u0026rsquo;t necessarily optimal.\nWhen someone is old and going to die soon, what do you do? Do you give them treatment to extend their life by a few months, or let them die peacefully?\nThis book is all about coming to terms with death and how medicine can improve that process.\n“In the end, people don\u0026rsquo;t view their life as merely the average of all its moments—which, after all, is mostly nothing much plus some sleep. For human beings, life is meaningful because it is a story. A story has a sense of a whole, and its arc is determined by the significant moments, the ones where something happens. Measurements of people\u0026rsquo;s minute-by-minute levels of pleasure and pain miss this fundamental aspect of human existence. A seemingly happy life maybe empty. A seemingly difficult life may be devoted to a great cause. We have purposes larger than ourselves.” ― Atul Gawande, Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End****\nHell Yeah or No by Derek Sivers (Digital)\nThis was a book that is a compilation of blog posts. There are some excellent short ones in here. One of my favourite ideas was that everybody\u0026rsquo;s ideas seem obvious to them. There are things that I know that seem obvious that others would love to learn how to do.\nMany great bits in this book.\n“People often ask me what they can do to be moresuccessful. I say disconnect. Even if just for a few hours. Unplug. Turn off your phone and Wi-Fi. Focus. Write. Practice. Create. That’s what’s rare and valuable these days.\nYou get no competitive edge from consuming the same stuff everyone else is consuming.” ― Derek Sivers, Hell Yeah or No: what\u0026rsquo;s worth doing\nHow Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton M. Christensen (Digital)\nThis was a great book about how to measure success in your life. Is financial success worth the negative impacts it may have on your family life? These are topics well worth considering and are discussed at length in the book.\n“It\u0026rsquo;s easier to hold your principles 100 percent of the time than it is to hold them 98 percent of the time.” ― Clayton M. Christensen, How Will You Measure Your Life?\nCrucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson (Audio)\nAn excellent book about how to conduct yourself in high pressure conversations and situations. I learnt that it\u0026rsquo;s always better to put your ideas forward into the \u0026lsquo;pool of knowledge\u0026rsquo; rather than leave them in your head.\n“People who are skilled at dialogue do their best to make it safe for everyone to add their meaning to the shared pool\u0026ndash;even ideas that at first glance appear controversial, wrong, or at odds with their own beliefs. Now, obviously they don\u0026rsquo;t agree with every idea; they simply do their best to ensure that all ideas find their way into the open.” ― Kerry Patterson, Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High\nOctober 2020 - 4 Books # The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton (Audio)\nA book about modern monetary theory and how the government running a deficit is not a problem at all. Governments that create their own currency face not actual limit on how much currency they can produce. The only real limit is the inflation of the currency.\nWith this in mind, the author suggests creating a jobs guarantee. This means that everyone without work can have a job working for the government in some community role. Since this just means the economy would be operating at capacity the wages for these people should not create inflation.\nA very interesting book about some economics that is increasingly being spoken about in policy discussions.\nThe Innovators by Walter Isaacson (Audio)\nInnovations come from all kinds of places. This book was all about the progression of computers from simple calculators in the 19th century up until modern day smartphones that we have today. I found it really cool to hear how various innovations occurred and how things really came to be as they are in the world of computing.\nOne thing that struck me in this book is the amount of collaboration that has gone on in computing. There are many parts of computing, like the internet for example, that there is no single \u0026lsquo;inventor\u0026rsquo;. A group of people, each who contributed their own small part eventually led to the creation of many of the technologies we have today.\n“But the main lesson to draw from the birth of computers is that innovation is usually a group effort, involving collaboration between visionaries and engineers, and that creativity comes from drawing on many sources. Only in storybooks do inventions come like a thunderbolt, or a lightbulb popping out of the head of a lone individual in a basement or garret or garage.” ― Walter Isaacson, The Innovators: How a Group of Inventors, Hackers, Geniuses, and Geeks Created the Digital Revolution\nFahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury (Audio)\nImagine firefighters except their job is to burn all the books in the world. This is what this book is about. It contains many lessons about knowledge protection and about how history must be learnt from and not destroyed.\n“Why is it,\u0026quot; he said, one time, at the subway entrance, \u0026ldquo;I feel I\u0026rsquo;ve known you so many years?\u0026rdquo; \u0026ldquo;Because I like you,\u0026rdquo; she said, \u0026ldquo;and I don\u0026rsquo;t want anything from you.” ― Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451\nThe Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas Taleb (Audio)\nMost of the risks we face in life and markets are not those we consider, but those that come from out of the blue. This entire book is about how you can\u0026rsquo;t be prepared for every scenario, a black swan event could be right around the corner.\n“Missing a train is only painful if you run after it! Likewise, not matching the idea of success others expect from you is only painful if that’s what you are seeking.” ― Nassim Nicholas Taleb, The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable\nSeptember 2020 - 3 Books # Shoe Dog by Phil Knight (Physical)\nThe story of Nike and how it came to be. Like some of the other books I have read, the story details Knight\u0026rsquo;s journey of stuggle and near bankruptcy. An excellent read of how to create a wonderful company and enjoy the ride along the way.\n“Life is growth. You grow or you die.” ― Phil Knight, Shoe Dog\nThe Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck (Audio)\nA short book about understanding yourself and how to manage your emotions.\n“Until you value yourself, you won\u0026rsquo;t value your time. Until you value your time, you will not do anything with it.” ― M. Scott Peck, The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values and Spiritual Growth\nHow to Get Rich by Felix Dennis (Audio)\nFelix seems like a wonderful character and this came across in his book. He details his stories of his various magazine companies and how these principles can be applies to other business ventures.\n“Having a great idea is simply not enough. The eventual goal is vastly more important than any idea. It is how ideas are implemented that counts in the long run” ― Felix Dennis, How to Get Rich\nAugust 2020 - 7 Books # Discipline Equals Freedom by Jocko Willink (Audio)\nAnother short book by the great and powerful Jocko Willink. This book is all about managing discipline in the mess of life.\n“Don’t expect to be motivated every day to get out there and make things happen. You won’t be. Don’t count on motivation. Count on Discipline.” ― Jocko Willink, Discipline Equals Freedom: Field Manual\nScrum by Jeff Sutherland (Audio)\nScrum details what has become the agile methodology of project management. This process means teams work in short sprints of getting things done rather than draw out projects. This style of working has meant that teams are significantly more productive and the people in those teams are much happier.\n“No Heroics. If you need a hero to get things done, you have a problem. Heroic effort should be viewed as a failure of planning.” ― Jeff Sutherland, Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time\nIron John by Robert Bly (Audio)\nThis is a book all about masculinity and the way society has suppressed it in recent times. The themes are told through a story about a wild man which makes it an interesting read.\nMost American men today do not have enough awakened or living warriors inside to defend their soul houses. And most people, men or women, do not know what genuine outward or inward warriors would look like, or feel like.” ― Robert Bly, Iron John: A Book About Men\nThe Tactical Guide to Women by Shawn T. Smith (Audio)\nThe landscape of relationships is a complicated one. With divorce rates at very high levels, it\u0026rsquo;s more important than ever to understand how to mitigate risks in relationships. This book outlines the main ways in which men can reduce their risks in life and with women.\nPower vs. Force by David R. Hawkins (Digital)\nThis book claims that everyone is operating at a certain energy level, and that everything around us is also operating with a certain frequency. I learnt that a thought of love is immensely more powerful than a negative one, and now I seek to reduce negative thought patterns as much as possible. I seek to replace them with \u0026lsquo;higher energy\u0026rsquo; thoughts.\n“We change the world not by what we say or do but as a consequence of what we have become.” ― David R. Hawkins, Power vs. Force: The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior, author\u0026rsquo;s Official Revised Edition\nBreath by James Nestor (Audio)\nEver thought about your breathing? It turns out that breathing through your mouth is incredibly bad for you, and breathing through your nose is much better. This book outlines the authors journey to discover better breathing techniques.\n“the greatest indicator of life span wasn’t genetics, diet, or the amount of daily exercise, as many had suspected. It was lung capacity.” ― James Nestor, Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art\nFooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Taleb (Audio)\nAnother one of Taleb\u0026rsquo;s books on how randomness can fool us. An important idea is that we need to be able to distinguish between what is lucky and what is skillful, it is not always obvious.\n“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” ― Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Fooled by Randomness: The Hidden Role of Chance in Life and in the Markets\nJuly 2020 - 2 Books # Sell or Be Sold by Grant Cardone (Audio)\nI haven\u0026rsquo;t had to do much selling in my life but this book was an excellent guide on how to do that. Cardone is fanatic about making deals and this book is an excellent guide on how to sell more.\n“Become so sold, so convinced, so committed to your company, product, and service that you believe it would be a terrible thing for the buyer to do business anywhere else with any other product.” ― Grant Cardone, Sell or Be Sold: How to Get Your Way in Business and in Life\nThe Alchemist by Paulo Coelho (Audio)\nAn excellent story about a young man uncovering his personal legend. There are so many lessons in this book, I will definitely come back to read this in the future.\n“It\u0026rsquo;s the possibility of having a dream come true that makes life interesting.” ― Paulo Coelho, The Alchemist\nJune 2020 - 4 Books # The Third Door by Alex Banayan (Audio)\nI couldn\u0026rsquo;t stop listening to this book. Alex has an amazing story of meeting people and finding a way to get what he wants, against the odds. The main idea of this book is that lots of successful people didn\u0026rsquo;t take the conventional route, they didn\u0026rsquo;t go through the main entrance or even the VIP entrance. They found the third door.\n“Maybe the hardest part about taking a risk isn’t whether to take it, it’s when to take it. It’s never clear how much momentum is enough to justify leaving school. It’s never clear when it’s the right time to quit your job. Big decisions are rarely clear when you’re making them—they’re only clear looking back. The best you can do is take one careful step at a time.” ― Alex Banayan, The Third Door: The Wild Quest to Uncover How the World\u0026rsquo;s Most Successful People Launched Their Careers: The Wild Quest to Uncover How the World\u0026rsquo;s Most Successful People Launched Their Careers\nBanker to the Poor by Muhammad Yunus (Digital)\nThe Grameen bank was started to provide micro-lending services to the poor. Now it is an extremely successful bank providing services all around the world. This book was the story of how it was created and grown.\n“People.. were poor not because they were stupid or lazy. They worked all day long, doing complex physical tasks. They were poor because the financial institution in the country did not help them widen their economic base.” ― Muhammad Yunus, Banker to the Poor: Micro-Lending and the Battle Against World Poverty\nMaximum Achievement by Brian Tracy (Audio)\nA typical self-help book. This book contains so many useful nuggets of wisdom. In particular I really liked the power of positive thinking.\n“Positive expectations are the mark of the superior personality.” ― Brian Tracy, Maximum Achievement: Strategies and Skills that Will Unlock Your Hidden Powers to Succeed\nOn Power by Gene Simmons (Audio)\nThe lead singer of KISS writing a book! One thing I really got out of this book was that your work and the rest of your life are not seperate, they are the same. There is no point trying to seperate your life in these ways. Another point the author makes is that the best way to provide for your family isn\u0026rsquo;t to be there for them and lot\u0026rsquo;s of time with them, the best way to provide for your family is to produce.\n“So much of our popular mythology focuses on the negative aspects of power that we forget that gaining power is, perhaps, the only way to enable ourselves to make a difference in our lives and in the lives of others.” ― Gene Simmons, On Power: My Journey Through the Corridors of Power and How You Can Get More Power\nMay 2020 - 3 Books # Range by David Epstein (Audio)\nRoger Federer played many sports before finally choosing tennis at age 16. Tiger Woods became a golfer when he was about 5. Which path is better? Epstein argues that getting a range of experiences and becoming a generalist is the way to go for a more successful life. He says that although early specialisation can put you ahead of the pack, it\u0026rsquo;s often a variety of experiences that leads to new discoveries.\n“Modern work demands knowledge transfer: the ability to apply knowledge to new situations and different domains. Our most fundamental thought processes have changed to accommodate increasing complexity and the need to derive new patterns rather than rely only on familiar ones. Our conceptual classification schemes provide a scaffolding for connecting knowledge, making it accessible and flexible.” ― David Epstein, Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World\nIf You\u0026rsquo;re Not First, You\u0026rsquo;re Last by Grant Cardone (Audio)\nGrant discusses how to dominate your market and your career.\n“Problems are opportunities, and conquered opportunities equal money earned.” ― Grant Cardone, If You\u0026rsquo;re Not First, You\u0026rsquo;re Last: Sales Strategies to Dominate Your Market and Beat Your Competition\nHow to Become CEO by Jeffrey J. Fox (Digital)\nMany useful tips in here like how to manage office politics and to move up in your organisation.\n“Nothing gives one person so much advantage over another as to remain cool and unruffled under all circumstances. —Thomas Jefferson” ― Jeffrey J. Fox, How to Become CEO: The Rules for Rising to the Top of Any Organization\nApril 2020 - 3 Books # E-Myth Revisited by by Michael E. Gerber (Audio)\nA book about how people wanting to start a business can end up just doing their job for themselves rather than running the business. Doing your job and running a business are distinct skills and it\u0026rsquo;s important to realise this before striking out on your own.\n“The difference between great people and everyone else is that great people create their lives actively, while everyone else is created by their lives, passively waiting to see where life takes them next. The difference between the two is living fully and just existing.” ― Gerber Michael E., The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don\u0026rsquo;t Work and What to Do About It\nSubliminal by Leonard Mlodinow (Audio)\nFilled with many wonderful examples of how our subconscious mind runs our decisions.\n“We believe that when we choose anything, judge a stranger and even fall in love, we understand the principal factors that influenced us. Very often nothing could be further from the truth. As a result, many of our most basic assumptions about ourselves, and society, are false.” ― Leonard Mlodinow\nEfficiency by Wall Street Playboys (Digital)\nI found out about this book on twitter. It\u0026rsquo;s all about how to make your life as efficient as possible for money, girls and fun.\nMarch 2020 - 8 Books # Design Your Best Year Ever by Darren Hardy (Digital)\nA book that I will probably read again at the beginning of 2021. Filled with excellent advice about goal setting and acheiving the things that you want.\nNever Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi (Audio)\nA really cool book about creating a social circle and connecting with those people that are interesting and can help you.\n“Success in any field, but especially in business is about working with people, not against them.” ― Keith Ferrazzi, Never Eat Alone: And Other Secrets to Success, One Relationship at a Time\nThe Magic of Thinking Big by David J. Schwartz (Audio)\nThis was an outstanding book on the power of belief. Similar to the growth mindset, believing you can do a thing dramatically changes how you look at scenario or opportunity.\n“Believe it can be done. When you believe something can be done, really believe, your mind will find the ways to do it. Believing a solution paves the way to solution.” ― David J. Schwartz, The Magic of Thinking Big\nThe Dip by Seth Godin (Digital)\nA great book on knowing when to quit. Using the 80/20 principle we know that people at the top get way more rewards than those in the middle. It\u0026rsquo;s important, then, to consider which things we can make it to the top and discard the rest.\n“Quit or be exceptional. Average is for losers.” ― Seth Godin, The Dip: A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit\nThe Winner Effect by Ian H. Robertson (Audio)\nWinning makes you win more! This was a super interesting insight into what makes winners and how winning has such a profound effect on your ability to win again in the future.\nHard Times Create Strong Men by Stefan Aarnio (Audio)\nStefan is a great example of masculinity and getting what you want in life. He outlines how society is getting weaker due to the presence of weak men, and how this will open the door for strong men to take back control.\n“The power of fasting to rebalance a man is usually combined with prayer and was used by powerful men such as Aristotle, Socrates, Jesus, Mohammad, Ghandi, Moses, Marcus Aurelius, and many others. These men would fast for up to 40 days on just water, and this was a major source of their spiritual power, clarity, and reasoning.” ― Stefan Aarnio, Hard Times Create Strong Men: Why the World Craves Leadership and How You Can Step Up to Fill the Need\nUltralearning by Scott H. Young (Audio)\nA really interesting insight into what makes a fast learner. Scott managed to go through an entire 4 year MIT degree in just one year, using the principles outlined in the book.\n“By taking notes as questions instead of answers, you generate the material to practice retrieval on later.” ― Scott H. Young, Ultralearning: Master Hard Skills, Outsmart the Competition, and Accelerate Your Career\nThe Alter Ego Effect by Todd Herman (Audio)\nAn insane book about Alter Ego\u0026rsquo;s. Many people use alter-egos like Elton John and Beyonce. These allow people to step into character and break through performance and creative barriers.\n“Cary Grant once said, “I pretended to be somebody I wanted to be until finally, I became that person. Or he became me.” ― Todd Herman, The Alter Ego Effect: The Power of Secret Identities to Transform Your Life\nFebruary 2020 - 5 Books # The Effective Executive by Peter F. Drucker (Audio)\n“It is more productive to convert an opportunity into results than to solve a problem - which only restores the equilibrium of yesterday.” ― Peter F. Drucker, The Effective Executive: The Definitive Guide to Getting the Right Things Done\nHyperfocus by Chris Bailey (Audio)\nA very interesting book about the benefits of complete focus, as well as the benefits of scattered focus time.\n“how important it is to choose what you consume and pay attention to: just as you are what you eat, when it comes to the information you consume, you are what you choose to focus on. Consuming valuable material in general makes scatterfocus sessions even more productive.” ― Chris Bailey, Hyperfocus: The New Science of Attention, Productivity, and Creativity\nLetting Go by David R. Hawkins (Physical)\nAn amazing book about energy levels and how letting go of your attachment to things can help you to transcend them.\n“The other person merely mirrors back what we are projecting onto them.” ― David R. Hawkins, Letting Go: The Pathway of Surrender\nThe 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey (Audio)\nA classic book. My favourite habit is the \u0026lsquo;seek win-win\u0026rsquo;. When I am coming to an agreement with people I know how important it is to work with them and create a winning scenario for both parties.\n“to learn and not to do is really not to learn. To know and not to do is really not to know.” ― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change\nFactfulness by Hans Rosling (Audio)\nContrary to popular opinion, the human race is in the best place it has ever been. We are all safer and more connected than ever before. This book outlines all the ways that we are living the best human lives ever.\n“Forming your worldview by relying on the media would be like forming your view about me by looking only at a picture of my foot.” ― Hans Rosling, Factfulness: Ten Reasons We\u0026rsquo;re Wrong About the World—and Why Things Are Better Than You Think\nJanuary 2020 - 3 Books # The Dictator\u0026rsquo;s Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita (Audio)\nEver wondered how on Earth the next soccer World Cup is being held in Qatar? This is clearly the result of corruption, and this book outlines exactly why that is the case. This book contains great insight into how politics and money actually work, and what the incentives are for people to stay in power. Things like foreign aid were super interesting to me.\n“This is the essential lesson of politics: in the end ruling is the objective, not ruling well.” ― Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, The Dictator\u0026rsquo;s Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics\nIndistractable by Nir Eyal (Audio)\nDistractions are all around us. In particular things like phone usage can really destroy your productive working time. This book outlines how to become \u0026lsquo;Indistractable\u0026rsquo;.\n“The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.” ― Nir Eyal, Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life\nHigh Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard (Audio)\nThis book was incredible. There were so many insights that I gleamed from this book, the most important one was about being intentional with your actions. So many times we go to work or go out with friends with no aim for what we want to get out of the evening or the event. We just kind of go along with everything. Setting a clear intention with what you want to get out of things before you enter a situation will set you up much better for getting what you want.\n“Be more intentional about who you want to become. Have vision beyond your current circumstances. Imagine your best future self, and start acting like that person today.” ― Brendon Burchard, High Performance Habits: How Extraordinary People Become That Way\nThanks for getting this far! Please connect with me below.\n","date":"27 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201231/","section":"Others","summary":"View my 2020 Reading challenge on Goodreads here.\nHere are my top 5 books that I read this year (in no particular order):\nHigh Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard The Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Iger Range by David Epstein The Alter Ego Effect by Todd Herman The Dictator’s Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita A Year of Books # This year was an incredible year. For the first time in my life, I managed to get through 52 books in a single year. On average, one book per week.\n","title":"52 Books in a Year","type":"other"},{"content":"At Christmas we played a fun game.\nIf you could have 3 people over for dinner, who would you choose?\nThere are plenty of good options here.\nI chose:\nSteve Jobs. Apple is such an outstanding company and Steve was such an extraordinary man. I think learning from him and hearing his stories would be incredible.\nRoger Federer. Few athletes are as dominant in their sport as Federer has been in Tennis. For so many years now he has dominated the court, all while being the epitome of sportsmanship. His class and elegance on the court are unmatched, and he would make a great guest at the table.\nThe last one is a difficult decision. There are so many choices. We\u0026rsquo;ve covered business and sport with the first two choices, but where do we turn next?\nNames like Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Owen Cook, Yuval Noah Harari and many other interesting people come to mind.\nI think I\u0026rsquo;ll take a different approach.\nBusiness and sport are covered. Not music.\nI think I\u0026rsquo;d invite Hans Zimmer to the table. He is another example of complete superiority in his field. Almost every good movie soundtrack is produced by this man. What an inspiration.\nWho would you have at your table?\n","date":"27 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201230/","section":"Others","summary":"At Christmas we played a fun game.\nIf you could have 3 people over for dinner, who would you choose?\nThere are plenty of good options here.\nI chose:\nSteve Jobs. Apple is such an outstanding company and Steve was such an extraordinary man. I think learning from him and hearing his stories would be incredible.\n","title":"3 People at Dinner","type":"other"},{"content":"Lately I\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking about this concept of getting more than you deserve.\nSometimes we get things that we don\u0026rsquo;t feel like we deserve, and we \u0026lsquo;self-sabotage\u0026rsquo; to return back to our original state.\nWe have this view of ourselves and what we deserve. When we get more than that, it seems too good to be true and the good thing that we had is often lost.\nConsider the following example.\nYou sit a test and get a 90% score.\nIs this good or bad?\nMaybe you see yourself as a good student, but not that good. So you think that now, since you have a great score on the first test, you can take it easy for the remainder of that subject.\nMaybe you see yourself as an excellent student, and a 90% is actually lower than what you expected. Now you much study extra hard to make sure you don\u0026rsquo;t do so badly on the next one!\nYou see this grade on the test can be seen in many different ways depending on your view of yourself.\nThere are many sayings out there like \u0026lsquo;you get what you think you deserve\u0026rsquo;, and I think these are very accurate.\nThis idea is similar to the Growth Mindset idea first popularised by Carol Dweck.\nThe idea is that certain people have a view of themselves that they can improve in certain situations. That there exists opportunities to succeed and not possibilities to fail.\nIt seems to me that our view of ourselves can have a huge impact on our lives.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s something worth considering and how your view of yourself impacts your life on a daily basis.\nYou could also consider how you can change your view of yourself to change areas of your life.\nFor example, become someone that gets good grades and maybe you won\u0026rsquo;t be so happy with a 90% on the test.\nHow you view yourself is a very interesting idea and something I\u0026rsquo;d love to learn more about in the future.\n","date":"27 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201229/","section":"Others","summary":"Lately I’ve been thinking about this concept of getting more than you deserve.\nSometimes we get things that we don’t feel like we deserve, and we ‘self-sabotage’ to return back to our original state.\n","title":"What You Think You Deserve","type":"other"},{"content":"Today I was investigating how to run cron jobs on my mac laptop. I wanted to automate the upgrade of my homebrew packages.\nThe process is extremely easy.\nFirst run crontab -e and press enter.\nInside this file you place your bash commands with a little trick.\nThe jobs are stored in the following format\n[minute] [hour] [day_of_month] [month] [day_of_week] [user] [command_to_run]\nSo to run our bash command every day we use 0 0 * * * followed by the desired command.\nFirst we need to write the bash script.\n#!/bin/bash /usr/local/bin/brew upgrade This runs the command brew upgrade. The reason we need /usr/local/bin/brew is because when a cron job runs, it doesn\u0026rsquo;t have your PATH defined so commands like brew won\u0026rsquo;t work. We need to specify the exact directory to be able to run them.\nNext we need to make this script executable.\nchmod +x b_up.sh Now we can setup the cron job.\nMy job looks like this\n0 0 * * * cd Documents \u0026amp;\u0026amp; ./b_up.sh \u0026gt;\u0026gt; b_log.txt 2\u0026gt;\u0026amp;1 So every day we first cd to the Documents folder and run the b_up.sh script. The output is appended to the b_log.txt file.\nThe 2\u0026gt;\u0026amp;1 command means that we don\u0026rsquo;t get mail about this job.\nOne problem I ran into here was that cron didn\u0026rsquo;t have sufficient permissions to run.\nWhat I needed to do to fix this was to add cron into my Full Disk Access in the settings of my mac. A tutorial to do so can be found here\nNow my cron job is working perfectly!\nOne improvement to this process would be to first check if there are any updates before running brew update as this does waste unnecessary resources.\nUntil next time.\n","date":"27 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201228/","section":"Others","summary":"Today I was investigating how to run cron jobs on my mac laptop. I wanted to automate the upgrade of my homebrew packages.\nThe process is extremely easy.\nFirst run crontab -e and press enter.\nInside this file you place your bash commands with a little trick.\n","title":"Automating Homebrew Upgrade with Cron","type":"other"},{"content":"There are so many different things to learn, and not enough time.\nWith all this information around us, there is always something new to learn, something more interesting to master.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s difficult to dedicate time to completely finishing something when there is so much out there that hasn\u0026rsquo;t been started yet.\nI think that even with this constant stream of information that hits us every day, its more important than ever to be selective about what information we take in.\nSpending time looking for new courses to go through is not the same as actually doing a course.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much better just to stick to one topic and move on than it is to keep rotating between topics.\nYou get stuff done by actually doing work not by thinking about all the different topics you are yet to learn about.\nBe selective.\n","date":"27 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201227/","section":"Others","summary":"There are so many different things to learn, and not enough time.\nWith all this information around us, there is always something new to learn, something more interesting to master.\nIt’s difficult to dedicate time to completely finishing something when there is so much out there that hasn’t been started yet.\n","title":"Too Much Information","type":"other"},{"content":" Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker is a great book, and contains many gems about sleep and it\u0026rsquo;s affect on us.\nWhile Walker has come under some criticism for some of the claims in the book, the idea that sleep is incredibly important is something that most people miss.\nIt turns out that sleep is one of the most important things that we do. It\u0026rsquo;s up there with food, water and reproduction.\nI was reading this book and found an interesing section on alcohol and it\u0026rsquo;s affect on learning.\nAlcohol is one of the most powerful REM sleep inhibitors. REM sleep is where your memories are processed by your brain.\nConsistent consumption of Alcohol can cause a severe backlog of missing REM sleep, and mean that people can begin hallucinating while they are awake.\nThe next part about learning really stuck with me.\nThe researchers did an experiment with 3 groups.\nEach group learnt a new memory task, the exact kind that REM sleep is good for. On the first day, each group had about 90% accuracy.\nThe groups were again tested after 6 days.\nThe first group consumed no alcohol.\nThe second group consumed 2-3 shots of vokda and orange juice before bed (standardised for bodyweight).\nThe third group consumed this same alcohol but on the 3rd night instead.\nAfter testing on the 7th day, the results astounded me.\nThe second group had forgotten 50% of what they had learned.\nEven the third group had forgotten 40% of what they had learned. This is amazing to me as they started drinking days after the original knowledge was obtained.\nSo, nightly alcohol like nightcaps will mess up your learning and your sleep.\nThis is why I don\u0026rsquo;t like to drink much through the year and especially not during periods of intense learning like exam periods.\n","date":"27 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201226/","section":"Others","summary":" Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker is a great book, and contains many gems about sleep and it’s affect on us.\nWhile Walker has come under some criticism for some of the claims in the book, the idea that sleep is incredibly important is something that most people miss.\n","title":"Alcohol and Learning","type":"other"},{"content":"Lately I\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking.\nI\u0026rsquo;m kinda successful in the gym.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve built a fairly decent body.\nI get compliments regularly.\nMy progress in the gym came quite easily. I didn\u0026rsquo;t feel like I was trying that hard.\nI just went to the gym, lifted, and went home.\nThen I realised.\nThere are certain principles that I use in the gym that are also applicable to real life.\nThings that I have used for success in the gym that can be applied to get me success in other areas.\nPerspective # Comparison is the thief of Joy\nThis is so important.\nImagine going in to the gym for the first time, and getting on the bench press.\nYou can only bench 30kgs. But it\u0026rsquo;s your first time, so not bad.\nYou leave the gym feeling dejected that you can\u0026rsquo;t bench 100kgs, and that you don\u0026rsquo;t look like those guys on instagram.\nThis is a losing formula. You must have perspective.\nFirstly, the guys on instagram and social media in general all do fitness for a living. It is literally their job to look as good as possible.\nYou don\u0026rsquo;t think some of them are using some naughty substances to maintain their physique?\nI think that it is extremely rare for someone to be fully natural and a social media influencer. Most natural bodybuilders don\u0026rsquo;t even compare to those on gear. It\u0026rsquo;s not worth comparing yourself to these people. They are not in your league.\nAll you are doing by this comparison is making yourself feel bad.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the same with how much weight you lift.\nInstead of focussing on how today was yet another day that you couldn\u0026rsquo;t bench 100kg, look at it differently.\nYou hit a new record which means you are one step closer to the 100kg bench.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all perspective.\nStart framing things in a way that is comparing you to YOU, not to some elite people online.\nAfter all, you will always want to be someone else, and someone else will always want to be you. It\u0026rsquo;s best just to drop these comparisons entirely, focus on yourself and enjoy each moment.\n\u0026lsquo;Enough\u0026rsquo; for me is someone else\u0026rsquo;s drop in the bucket, and another person\u0026rsquo;s wildest dream.\nConsistency # If you are willing to do only what’s easy, life will be hard. But if you are willing to do what’s hard, life will be easy.\nBeing consistent in the gym is absolutely vital to making good gains.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve found that you really need to be going 3x per week or more to maximise the output of your body.\nThis year, due to covid, I missed about 10 weeks of the gym. Granted I was doing some hybrid workouts at home, but I still lost a lot of muscle.\nWhen I started back in the gym, my lifts were probably around 70% of what they were before the break.\nImagine this taking place regularly. You will never get anywhere.\nYou need to be consistent.\nPart of this means setting a reasonable schedule too. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to be going 7x per week for 2 weeks and then miss a month because you are burnt out.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much better to be in there less, but consistently.\nThink about being in the gym for the next 10 years of your life.\nHow would you structure your training then?\nImprovement # “Let the improvement of yourself keep you so busy that you have no time to criticise others.” ― Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart\nEven if you follow the previous two principles. You might not get anywhere.\nWe want to improve, every single time.\nSomething I do in the gym is track my workouts. I know exactly how I did last time, and therefore exactly what I need to do next time to improve.\nSometimes I can\u0026rsquo;t improve. Maybe I had a rough day, or didn\u0026rsquo;t get enough sleep. This is not a problem.\nActual improvement is not that important. What\u0026rsquo;s most important is that you are actively chasing it.\nEach time I step into the gym I know what I need to do, and will give 110% to try and beat what I did last time.\nIn my opinion, anything less than this is a waste of time.\nIf you aren\u0026rsquo;t striving for improvement you should consider using your time in a different way.\nLife is all about improvement. Breaking new ground. Setting higher expectations.\nApplication # So how can we apply these two principles.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s use an example of starting a youtube channel.\nFirst of all, don\u0026rsquo;t compare yourself to others.\nYour first videos will not be good. It is of no benefit to you to look at an established youtuber and say \u0026ldquo;Oh no I should really stop now because my videos aren\u0026rsquo;t as good as theirs\u0026rdquo;.\nObviously you aren\u0026rsquo;t as good. You haven\u0026rsquo;t practiced enough yet.\nUse their content to learn, study what they do. But don\u0026rsquo;t compare yourself. You won\u0026rsquo;t get anywhere by doing that .\nThe next thing is consistency.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much better to be consistent with your channel, than to be sporadic.\nFortunately we have tools available to us on social media that mean even if we create 5 videos in a single day, they can be scheduled out over time.\nBut while this feature can be useful. For your youtube channel to be successful you need to practice creating on a regular basis. Refine your techniques, and seek to do better every time.\nThis brings us to the last principle. Do better than last time.\nEach video you make, you should analyse your previous content and consider how this video can be better than the last one.\nEven if you make only tiny progress every time, it is inevitable that you will eventually start producing good content.\nBy following these three principles you will have a successful time. I have no doubt.\nConclusion # The three gym principles I use, that can be used in other areas are\nPerspective Consistency Improvement Consider how you can apply them to different areas of your life to achieve better results.\n","date":"13 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/gym-principles-in-life/","section":"Writing","summary":"Lately I’ve been thinking.\nI’m kinda successful in the gym.\nI’ve built a fairly decent body.\nI get compliments regularly.\nMy progress in the gym came quite easily. I didn’t feel like I was trying that hard.\n","title":"Gym Principles in Life","type":"posts"},{"content":"Merry Christmas!\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201225/","section":"Others","summary":"Merry Christmas!\n","title":"Merry Christmas","type":"other"},{"content":"I was watching this video yesterday.\nSomething was said that really resonated with me.\nSay you\u0026rsquo;re going into a new partnership, maybe a romantic partner or a business partner for example.\nAsk them what they think of their previous partners, and what they rate their life out of 10.\nChances are, this is how they also rate YOU.\nFor example, consider someone that always thinks they are being screwed over.\nThey will begin to see this everywhere!\nEven if you are a better partner, or your business is better. People are addicted to these emotions and will continually seek them out and project their feelings onto you.\nBut this doesn\u0026rsquo;t end here.\nThe key now is to consider how you are doing this in your own life.\nYou are addicted to some kind of emotions. What are they? What things do you see in others all the time? What trends do you see in your life over and over again?\nWhat someone says about you is really what they say about themselves.\nWhat you say about others, is really what you think about yourself.\nThis was super interesting to me and I hope you go out and take a minute to consider what emotions you are addicted to!\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201224/","section":"Others","summary":"I was watching this video yesterday.\nSomething was said that really resonated with me.\nSay you’re going into a new partnership, maybe a romantic partner or a business partner for example.\nAsk them what they think of their previous partners, and what they rate their life out of 10.\n","title":"Addictive Emotions","type":"other"},{"content":"You know that feeling.\nYour alarm goes off. You feel sluggish as you reach to stop that annoying sound.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s another poor start to the day.\nThe reality is that simple alarm clocks suck at waking you up.\nA much better alternative is waking up to the sunrise.\nYour body slowly wakes up, and instead of feeling sluggish and annoyed when you wake up, you feel refreshed and ready to go.\nThis is what has happened to me since I started using a sunrise alarm clock.\nMy body gets to wake up over a 30 minute period rather than a 5 second one.\nThe alarm clock shines light into my eyes that slowly gets brighter as the time gets closer to my alarm.\nThe clock then releases a gentle alarm noise at my dedicated time.\nThese clocks are something that has made my mornings much better, and made myself feel much better when I wake up.\nI highly recommend.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201223/","section":"Others","summary":"You know that feeling.\nYour alarm goes off. You feel sluggish as you reach to stop that annoying sound.\nIt’s another poor start to the day.\nThe reality is that simple alarm clocks suck at waking you up.\n","title":"Sunrise Alarm Clocks","type":"other"},{"content":"Fasting is the process of not eating food.\nFor example, someone may choose to undertake what is called One Meal A Day (OMAD). This is where a person only eats one large meal per day, and does not consume any calories at any other point in the day.\nOther popular routines are the 16/8 which is where the person has an 8 hour window to consume food, and the 16 hours of fasting per day.\nThere are many positive effects of fasting.\nInsulin Resistance # When you eat food, your pancreas releases a hormone called insulin into your body. This moves glucose from digestion into your bloodstream so your body can use it as fuel. The excess is stored in your liver as glycogen. When your liver is full, the excess is stored as body fat.\nBeing resistance to insulin means that your cells require more insulin that normal to force glucose into your bloodstream. This process then continues and means that your body ends up storing more fat.\nWhen you fast, the pancreas stops releasing insulin. It depletes the glycogen stores of your body and means that your body starts to use fat as fuel.\nOnly 11-12 hours of fasting are needed for this process to begin.\nMuscle # Some people are worried about losing muscle when fasting.\nIt turns out that when you fast, your body releases more adrenaline and growth hormone. Both of which support your body holding on to its muscle.\nMy Fasting Experience # I have done OMAD over a few periods in my life, usually in summer when I\u0026rsquo;m trying to slim down to show off the beach body.\nI tend to get a bit hungry but that is what happens when you are trying to lose weight.\nI have found that I lose really no muscle at all, mostly because my body fat is not getting to a really low percentage.\nI find it much easier to lose weight this way as I can limit myself to eating in certain parts of the day much easier than limiting my portion sizes for each meal. For example if I didn\u0026rsquo;t want to eat at work then I just wouldn\u0026rsquo;t take food with me to work and eat when I arrive home. It makes things quite simple.\nConclusion # For a deeper look at fasting and other links have a read here:\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/fasting_in_a_nutshell\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201222/","section":"Others","summary":"Fasting is the process of not eating food.\nFor example, someone may choose to undertake what is called One Meal A Day (OMAD). This is where a person only eats one large meal per day, and does not consume any calories at any other point in the day.\n","title":"Benefits of Fasting","type":"other"},{"content":"An Operating Systems is system software that manages computer hardware, software resources, and provides common services for computer programs. -Wikipedia\nAn operating system provides applications access to hardware devices.\nI\u0026rsquo;m taking Introduction to Operating Systems on Udacity at the moment. In the course they state the three purposes of an OS.\nhide hardware complexity resource management provide isolation and protection Various operating systems include Windows, Mac, Linux, Android and iOS.\nThe Udacity course draws parrallels between a store manager and an operating system.\nA shop manager\ndirects operational resources enforces working policies mitigates difficulty of complex tasks The manager does these three things by\ndirecting use of employee time/tools etc Enforces safety, cleanup and fairness rules Optimises the shop by deciding on workloads These features of a manger are very similar to those of an operating system. In fact, the operating system completes these same three goals by the following:\nOS controls the use of CPU and memory OS limits access to resources. For example the maximum amount of files a process can open OS allows for system calls that make accessing the hardware easy for software applications Operating systems are one of the most interesting and detailed parts of your computer!\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201221/","section":"Others","summary":"An Operating Systems is system software that manages computer hardware, software resources, and provides common services for computer programs. -Wikipedia\nAn operating system provides applications access to hardware devices.\nI’m taking Introduction to Operating Systems on Udacity at the moment. In the course they state the three purposes of an OS.\n","title":"What is an Operating System?","type":"other"},{"content":"The process calls the fork() system call, which the OS provides as a way to create a new process. The original process is known as the parent and the new process is known as the child.\nThe child process that is created is almost an exact copy of the original process. To the Operating System, there are now 2 copies of the process that can both return from the fork() system call.\nThe child process doesn’t start running at main(), it just comes into life as if it had called fork() itself.\nAthough the two processes are essentially the same. They return different values to fork() so that we can differentiate them.\nThe following C++ code from \u0026ldquo;Operating Systems: Three Easy Pieces\u0026rdquo; illustrates this very well.\n#include \u0026lt;stdio.h\u0026gt; #include \u0026lt;stdlib.h\u0026gt; #include \u0026lt;unistd.h\u0026gt; int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { printf(\u0026#34;hello world (pid:%d)\\n\u0026#34;, (int) getpid()); int rc = fork(); if (rc \u0026lt; 0) { // fork failed; exit fprintf(stderr, \u0026#34;fork failed\\n\u0026#34;); exit(1); } else if (rc == 0) { // child (new process) printf(\u0026#34;hello, I am child (pid:%d)\\n\u0026#34;, (int) getpid()); } else { // parent goes down this path (main) printf(\u0026#34;hello, I am parent of %d (pid:%d)\\n\u0026#34;, rc, (int) getpid()); } return 0; } Returns the following output\nprompt\u0026gt; ./p1 hello world (pid:29146) hello, I am parent of 29147 (pid:29146) hello, I am child (pid:29147) prompt\u0026gt; ","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201220/","section":"Others","summary":"The process calls the fork() system call, which the OS provides as a way to create a new process. The original process is known as the parent and the new process is known as the child.\n","title":"Operation Systems fork() Method","type":"other"},{"content":"The Little Prince, first published in 1943, has sold over 140 million copies worldwide.\nThe story of the Little Prince.\nThe Little Prince lives on a planet far from Earth.\nOn his planet he doesn\u0026rsquo;t have much, only a single rose.\nThis rose is his most prized possession.\nHe\u0026rsquo;s grown up with the rose, and spent his entire life with it.\nOne day, the Little Prince goes to Earth.\nHe sees that, in fact, there are MILLIONS of roses!\nHere he is, thinking that his rose is so special, when in fact there are so many just like it. His soul is crushed.\nBut the Little Prince has an epiphany.\nThe Little Prince comes to realise that even though there may be many roses just like his rose. He can choose to love his rose anyway.\nEven though his rose might not be the best, it might not be the prettiest. He can still choose to love his rose anyway.\nIsn\u0026rsquo;t that just a wonderful story.\nSo what does this mean for us?\nEven though other people might have better stuff, cooler friends, more money etc. You can choose to love yourself anyway.\nYou can choose to love yourself and your life for what they are, despite comparisons to others.\nComparisons in life are something that is very difficult to avoid. We are always doing them over social media and in person.\nThese comparisons are ulimately very unhealthy.\nNext time you find yourself comparing things in an unhealthy way. Think of the Little Prince, and how, despite your imperfections, you can choose to love yourself anyway.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201219/","section":"Others","summary":"The Little Prince, first published in 1943, has sold over 140 million copies worldwide.\nThe story of the Little Prince.\nThe Little Prince lives on a planet far from Earth.\nOn his planet he doesn’t have much, only a single rose.\n","title":"The Little Prince","type":"other"},{"content":"I\u0026rsquo;ve been learning about Docker through the course Docker in a Day\nDocker allows programmers to create \u0026lsquo;containers\u0026rsquo; around different environments.\nConsider the following example,\nYou want to create an environment with Python 3.7 and Nginx.\nYou have different environments as part of your development like your staging server for example, and all of these use different operating systems.\nHow can we easily setup and use this environment in all of these stages of production without setting up each individually?\nThe answer is containers with Docker.\nThe Docker containers creates a wrapper around your application and its dependencies.\nThe Docker engine then runs the container.\nThe host operating systems only needs to know Docker. It\u0026rsquo;s doesn\u0026rsquo;t need to know all of the different dependencies (Docker takes care of them).\nThe container will always provide the same environment regardless of the underlying operating system.\nIn order to setup Docker on my mac I used this guide.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s very interesting learning about what is a popular and important tool in software engineering.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201218/","section":"Others","summary":"I’ve been learning about Docker through the course Docker in a Day\nDocker allows programmers to create ‘containers’ around different environments.\nConsider the following example,\nYou want to create an environment with Python 3.7 and Nginx.\nYou have different environments as part of your development like your staging server for example, and all of these use different operating systems.\n","title":"What is Docker?","type":"other"},{"content":"In terms of success and achieving goals. People often get praise for where they currently are.\nIf you just finished a cool degree, were offered a cool job or a promotion. These are all things that get praise.\nWhat I think is more important is the trajectory of a person.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t have that much current success, you can frame your journey in terms of a trajectory.\n2 weeks ago, I attended my schools 5 year reunion.\nIn these cases, its clear to see what trajectory people have been on since high school.\nSome are on track to be successful, some are lazy and some are already obese.\nThe question to ask here is what kind of trajectory are you on?\nIf you repeated this year of your life for 5 years, where would you be?\nDo you like that? or does that scare you a bit?\nIf you put on 5kgs this year. It doesn\u0026rsquo;t seem like much, but soon this problem will be much harder to deal with.\nSoon you\u0026rsquo;ll be 20kgs overweight and wondering where the time went.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much easier to fix these trajectories which you are in the early stages.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much easier to have the self-awareness of what your trajectory is, and where it is taking you.\nTodays challenge: Consider your life trajectory, and where you are currently headed. If you don\u0026rsquo;t like that, consider what you can do to change it.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201217/","section":"Others","summary":"In terms of success and achieving goals. People often get praise for where they currently are.\nIf you just finished a cool degree, were offered a cool job or a promotion. These are all things that get praise.\n","title":"Trajectories","type":"other"},{"content":"The Ride Of A Lifetime\nThis book was very good.\nRobert Iger has been the CEO of Disney for over 15 years, and in this book, he gives his story and the things he learnt along the way.\nA key theme from the book is that a company reflects it\u0026rsquo;s leaders values. If you want your company to act a certain way, you as the leader, also need to act in that certain way.\nThere were three main things that I got from this book. Optimism, Innovation and Courage.\nOptimism # “Optimism. One of the most important qualities of a good leader is optimism, a pragmatic enthusiasm for what can be achieved. Even in the face of difficult choices and less than ideal outcomes, an optimistic leader does not yield to pessimism. Simply put, people are not motivated or energized by pessimists.” ― Robert Iger, The Ride of a Lifetime: Lessons Learned from 15 Years as CEO of the Walt Disney Company\nThis was a key theme throughout the book.\nNo-one can be led by a pessimist.\nEven in the face of challenges, leaders must remain optimistic.\nInnovation # “The path to innovation begins with curiosity” ― Robert Iger, The Ride of a Lifetime: Lessons Learned from 15 Years as CEO of the Walt Disney Company\nOne of the coolest things I noticed about the author is that he is very innovative.\nIt seems like as soon as he started as CEO, he put things into motion. It seems like he knew what to do.\nHe burst onto the scene by acquiring Pixar, and various other companies after.\nThese are very innovative moves.\nEven his eventual move into the digital space by creating Disney Plus was seen as very forward thinking, but it has paid off.\nThis innovation was absolutely key to his success, and leads me to my next point.\nCourage # “Don’t be in the business of playing it safe. Be in the business of creating possibilities for greatness.” ― Robert Iger, The Ride of a Lifetime: Lessons Learned from 15 Years as CEO of the Walt Disney Company\nThis man is very courageous.\nHe knew when he started that the average time a CEO spends in charge is about 4 years, and set his sights accordingly.\nIn all of his decisions, he trusted his gut instinct and showed courage.\nSome of the decisions he had to make are some of the biggest deals that have happen this century. When smart people don\u0026rsquo;t agree with you, especially in these situations, it would be easy to give up.\nRobert trusted his gut, and it brought him much success.\nConclusion # It\u0026rsquo;s difficult to summarise this book into three short points.\nIt was incredible to hear the first hand experience of such a successful person.\nI highly recommend this book to everyone.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201216/","section":"Others","summary":"The Ride Of A Lifetime\nThis book was very good.\nRobert Iger has been the CEO of Disney for over 15 years, and in this book, he gives his story and the things he learnt along the way.\n","title":"The Ride Of A Lifetime - Review","type":"other"},{"content":"“I can honestly say that I have never gone into any business purely to make money. If that is the sole motive then I believe you are better off not doing it. A business has to be involving, it has to be fun, and it has to exercise your creative instincts.” ― Richard Branson, Losing My Virginity: How I\u0026rsquo;ve Survived, Had Fun, and Made a Fortune Doing Business My Way\nWhat is an entrepreneur?\nAn ideas man?\nExecutive?\nFast car driver?\nToday an entrepreneur has become a pseudonym for a rock star.\nEveryone wants to be rich and famous.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s very rare to meet a person that has everything that they want.\nSo many people want to look better, more money or more status.\nThe entrepreneur personifies this.\nThey are all rich, famous and have lots of status.\nIn reality this is not the case.\nImagine grinding by yourself for many years while being told that you are wasting your time by everyone you know.\nThis is the price you pay.\nThis is the price most people will not pay.\nAnother consideration is the risk involved.\nWe all know the standard risk and reward mantra. High Risk = Potential High Reward\nEntrepreneurship is exactly that.\nHigh risk, in exchange for a higher potential reward.\nUnfortunately this reward is not guaranteed (as much as people online seem to think otherwise).\nWhat I think the key is to attaining more looks/status/wealth is to\nnot care about that stuff as much (difficult) do your best at whatever you are doing and the rewards will come Letting go of the result is so important, but is a topic for another day.\nTo conclude.\nEntrepreneurship is the equivalent of becoming a rockstar.\nEveryone wants to do it, but not many are willing to pay the price.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201215/","section":"Others","summary":"“I can honestly say that I have never gone into any business purely to make money. If that is the sole motive then I believe you are better off not doing it. A business has to be involving, it has to be fun, and it has to exercise your creative instincts.” ― Richard Branson, Losing My Virginity: How I’ve Survived, Had Fun, and Made a Fortune Doing Business My Way\n","title":"What makes an Entrepreneur?","type":"other"},{"content":"The following was my answer to this question on Quora.\nLink to question\nThis depends on the person.\nFor me, I prefer to study first thing in the morning. I find that as the day goes on, my ability to focus goes down dramatically. My ‘worst time to study’ would be at night.\nOthers can work well in the evening, but this depends on the person.\nSomething you could look into for yourself is something called a ‘Sleep Chronotype’. Your body has a natural tendency to perform best/worst at different times of the day, and this is genetic.\nThere are 4 different kinds, and each one has a different ‘worst time to study’.\nThese are a Bear, Lion, Wolf and Dolphin.\nI prefer to work in the morning, so I am a Lion.\nBears and Dolphins do better in the middle of the day, and Wolves at night.\nYou can read more about these here:\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s Your Sleep Chronotype? How to Decode Your Circadian Rhythm\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201214/","section":"Others","summary":"The following was my answer to this question on Quora.\nLink to question\nThis depends on the person.\nFor me, I prefer to study first thing in the morning. I find that as the day goes on, my ability to focus goes down dramatically. My ‘worst time to study’ would be at night.\n","title":"When is the time not appropriate for students to study?","type":"other"},{"content":"Lately I\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking.\nI\u0026rsquo;m kinda successful in the gym.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve built a fairly decent body.\nI get compliments regularly.\nMy progress in the gym came quite easily. I didn\u0026rsquo;t feel like I was trying that hard.\nI just went to the gym, lifted, and went home.\nThen I realised.\nThere are certain principles that I use in the gym that are also applicable to real life.\nThings that I have used for success in the gym that can be applied to get me success in other areas.\nPerspective # Comparison is the thief of Joy\nThis is so important.\nImagine going in to the gym for the first time, and getting on the bench press.\nYou can only bench 30kgs. But it\u0026rsquo;s your first time, so not bad.\nYou leave the gym feeling dejected that you can\u0026rsquo;t bench 100kgs, and that you don\u0026rsquo;t look like those guys on instagram.\nThis is a losing formula. You must have perspective.\nFirstly, the guys on instagram and social media in general all do fitness for a living. It is literally their job to look as good as possible.\nYou don\u0026rsquo;t think some of them are using some naughty substances to maintain their physique?\nI think that it is extremely rare for someone to be fully natural and a social media influencer. Most natural bodybuilders don\u0026rsquo;t even compare to those on gear. It\u0026rsquo;s not worth comparing yourself to these people. They are not in your league.\nAll you are doing by this comparison is making yourself feel bad.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the same with how much weight you lift.\nInstead of focussing on how today was yet another day that you couldn\u0026rsquo;t bench 100kg, look at it differently.\nYou hit a new record which means you are one step closer to the 100kg bench.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s all perspective.\nStart framing things in a way that is comparing you to YOU, not to some elite people online.\nAfter all, you will always want to be someone else, and someone else will always want to be you. It\u0026rsquo;s best just to drop these comparisons entirely, focus on yourself and enjoy each moment.\n\u0026lsquo;Enough\u0026rsquo; for me is someone else\u0026rsquo;s drop in the bucket, and another person\u0026rsquo;s wildest dream.\nConsistency # If you are willing to do only what’s easy, life will be hard. But if you are willing to do what’s hard, life will be easy.\nBeing consistent in the gym is absolutely vital to making good gains.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve found that you really need to be going 3x per week or more to maximise the output of your body.\nThis year, due to covid, I missed about 10 weeks of the gym. Granted I was doing some hybrid workouts at home, but I still lost a lot of muscle.\nWhen I started back in the gym, my lifts were probably around 70% of what they were before the break.\nImagine this taking place regularly. You will never get anywhere.\nYou need to be consistent.\nPart of this means setting a reasonable schedule too. You don\u0026rsquo;t want to be going 7x per week for 2 weeks and then miss a month because you are burnt out.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much better to be in there less, but consistently.\nThink about being in the gym for the next 10 years of your life.\nHow would you structure your training then?\nImprovement # “Let the improvement of yourself keep you so busy that you have no time to criticise others.” ― Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart\nEven if you follow the previous two principles. You might not get anywhere.\nWe want to improve, every single time.\nSomething I do in the gym is track my workouts. I know exactly how I did last time, and therefore exactly what I need to do next time to improve.\nSometimes I can\u0026rsquo;t improve. Maybe I had a rough day, or didn\u0026rsquo;t get enough sleep. This is not a problem.\nActual improvement is not that important. What\u0026rsquo;s most important is that you are actively chasing it.\nEach time I step into the gym I know what I need to do, and will give 110% to try and beat what I did last time.\nIn my opinion, anything less than this is a waste of time.\nIf you aren\u0026rsquo;t striving for improvement you should consider using your time in a different way.\nLife is all about improvement. Breaking new ground. Setting higher expectations.\nApplication # So how can we apply these two principles.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s use an example of starting a youtube channel.\nFirst of all, don\u0026rsquo;t compare yourself to others.\nYour first videos will not be good. It is of no benefit to you to look at an established youtuber and say \u0026ldquo;Oh no I should really stop now because my videos aren\u0026rsquo;t as good as theirs\u0026rdquo;.\nObviously you aren\u0026rsquo;t as good. You haven\u0026rsquo;t practiced enough yet.\nUse their content to learn, study what they do. But don\u0026rsquo;t compare yourself. You won\u0026rsquo;t get anywhere by doing that .\nThe next thing is consistency.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s much better to be consistent with your channel, than to be sporadic.\nFortunately we have tools available to us on social media that mean even if we create 5 videos in a single day, they can be scheduled out over time.\nBut while this feature can be useful. For your youtube channel to be successful you need to practice creating on a regular basis. Refine your techniques, and seek to do better every time.\nThis brings us to the last principle. Do better than last time.\nEach video you make, you should analyse your previous content and consider how this video can be better than the last one.\nEven if you make only tiny progress every time, it is inevitable that you will eventually start producing good content.\nBy following these three principles you will have a successful time. I have no doubt.\nConclusion # The three gym principles I use, that can be used in other areas are\nPerspective Consistency Improvement Consider how you can apply them to different areas of your life to achieve better results.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201213/","section":"Others","summary":"Lately I’ve been thinking.\nI’m kinda successful in the gym.\nI’ve built a fairly decent body.\nI get compliments regularly.\nMy progress in the gym came quite easily. I didn’t feel like I was trying that hard.\n","title":"Gym Principles in Life","type":"other"},{"content":"That Will Never Work\nThat\u0026rsquo;s what the founder of Netflix heard when explaining his idea about selling DVD\u0026rsquo;s as rentals.\nNetflix then overcame many obstacles and eventually the mighty Blockbuster. It is now one of the largest and most prestigious companies in the world.\nIn the book, Marc Randolph outlines his role in the creation and early stages of Netflix before his exit in 2002.\nThe one thing I took from this book was the following: Don\u0026rsquo;t be afraid to start.\nMaybe your idea does suck, but you\u0026rsquo;ll never know until you try.\nSo many of us get stuck at the stage of not even trying our idea. We never get to even see how or where our idea is wrong.\nPart of the process is starting with a bad idea but finding ways to make it work and then, after much persistence, coming out on top.\nNetflix is a fantastic example of hurdles that continue to arise but people continually rise above.\nA lesson to us all about perseverance and faith.\nBelow is a great excerpt from the book\n“What do they all say? That will never work.\nBy now, I hope you know what my answer to that line is. Nobody Knows Anything.\nI only get to write this book once. And I’d feel like I missed an opportunity if I ended this story without giving you some advice.\nThe most powerful step that anyone can take to turn their dreams into reality is a simple one: you just need to start.\nThe only real way to find out if your idea is a good one is to do it. You’ll learn more in one hour of doing something than in a lifetime of thinking about it. So take that step.\nBuild something, make something, test something, sell something. Learn for yourself if your idea is a good one.\nWhat happens if your idea doesn’t work? What happens if your test fails, if nobody orders your product or joins your club? What if sales don’t go up and customer complaints don’t go down? What if you get halfway through writing your novel and get writer’s block? What if after dozens of tries – even hundreds of attempts – you still haven’t seen your dream become anything close to real?\nYou have to learn to love the problem, not the solution.\nThat’s how you stay engaged when things take longer than you expected.”\n― Marc Randolph, That Will Never Work: The Birth of Netflix and the Amazing Life of an Idea\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201212/","section":"Others","summary":"That Will Never Work\nThat’s what the founder of Netflix heard when explaining his idea about selling DVD’s as rentals.\nNetflix then overcame many obstacles and eventually the mighty Blockbuster. It is now one of the largest and most prestigious companies in the world.\n","title":"That Will Never Work (The Story of Netflix)","type":"other"},{"content":"Today I spoke with a friend. Like me, she is moving interstate for work.\nFor both of us, this move represents some of the biggest challenges we have faced in our lives so far.\nIt was interesting to see the progression from our younger years.\nBack in year 8, our school did something called \u0026lsquo;Unley Week\u0026rsquo;. This was where our year group completed tasks in the nearby suburb of Unley.\nThe next year, Year 9, we did \u0026lsquo;City Week\u0026rsquo;. This was basically the same as Unley week except now it was in the city. We faced the daunting task of catching a public bus into the city for the first time.\nIn year 11, we both travelled to Germany as part of an exchange program. This was a very structured thing. We stayed with families and people that we both had met beforehand. Still, at the time, it was a very scary but rewarding experience.\nIn 2019, we both travelled overseas. I travelled to Sheffield in the UK to complete a University semester. This experience was one of the most daunting things I had done in my life. I was going overseas for about 6 months, not knowing anyone in my destination. Upon reflecting on my experience, it was one of the best things I ever did.\nAnd now, the interstate move. We both don\u0026rsquo;t know many people where we are going. To make matters even more serious, we aren\u0026rsquo;t going on a holiday. We are going for real. Moving our entire lives to a new city with no prospect of return.\nThis is by far the most daunting thing I have done to date. However, if my past experiences are anything to go by, it will also be the most rewarding.\nThe key to the reward is getting out of your comfort zone. Embracing the unknown and charging forward. Gaining new experiences and perspective.\nThis is growth.\nThis is what makes life exciting.\n","date":"9 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201211/","section":"Others","summary":"Today I spoke with a friend. Like me, she is moving interstate for work.\nFor both of us, this move represents some of the biggest challenges we have faced in our lives so far.\nIt was interesting to see the progression from our younger years.\n","title":"Progression","type":"other"},{"content":"The following is a speech I gave at Toastmasters.\nHeroes .\nHeroes are all around us. Whether they\u0026rsquo;re in film, movies, books or in real life. Heroes are everywhere.\nThey show us the way.\nWe look to them like the beacon of light\nEveryone aspires to be like famous heroes heroes like\nluke skywalker jacinta ardern henry ford princess diana All these people are famous and have done great things. We all aspire to be like them\nOne thing you might not know though, is that heroes all have something in common.\nBack in 1949 Joseph Campbell wrote a book called \u0026lsquo;A Hero with A Thousand Faces\u0026rsquo; and in this book he outlines the 17 different phases that go into a hero\u0026rsquo;s journey.\nThese are consistent across every single kind of hero that there is, but they\u0026rsquo;re most commonly found in in film or books.\nThese 17 phases consist of three main acts which are,\nthe departure the initiation the return The departure act this is where the hero is beginning their journey. You know, the start of the movie. The hero doesn\u0026rsquo;t really know what\u0026rsquo;s going on, they\u0026rsquo;re a bit shy and then they leave this place that they\u0026rsquo;re from and they begin the journey.\nThis is like in the lion king where Simba\u0026rsquo;s dad dies and he leaves the pride and goes on his journey. Or in Star Wars where Luke Skywalker is asked by Obi-Wan to leave his home planet and travel to Alderaan. Or in Harry Potter where Harry gets the letter to travel to Hogwarts.\nThese are all scenarios where the hero is asked to to rise up to something greater than themselves.\nThis act is also typically accompanied by some kind of mentor or friendship group that allows the hero to step up.\nNext, the initiation.\nThis is really the meat of the story. This is where the hero begins to learn more about the world. They get exposed to things that are outside of their previous world view.\nIn the Lion King this is where Simba is traveling through the forest with Timone and Pumba discovering all these things that he never thought existed. This is like Star Wars where Luke Skywalker is going out to the death star. He\u0026rsquo;s rescuing Leia, he\u0026rsquo;s seeing clones he\u0026rsquo;s doing all these amazing things. This is like Harry Potter, where Harry is in Hogwarts discovering all these things about magic, he\u0026rsquo;s discovering all these new things he never never knew existed.\nFinally, the last phase the most important: the return.\nThis is where the hero achieves some amazing goal, they do something great and then they return back to where they\u0026rsquo;re originally from as a changed person having undergone some sort of transformation.\nSo, the Lion King. Simba comes back to the pride, defeats Scar and rises up as the new leader of the pride, the new hero of the land. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker blows up the death star and returns to the resistance as a hero of the rebel alliance. Or Harry Potter where Harry defeats Voldemort and returns back to Hogwarts as a new hero.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s pretty incredible. I\u0026rsquo;ve just done three movies but these principles apply to every almost every single movie. One thing that\u0026rsquo;s one thing that\u0026rsquo;s very interesting is the the transformation that goes on with the character.\nSimba is a great example. He starts off the movie as this naive young thing, doesn\u0026rsquo;t really know what he\u0026rsquo;s doing.\nHe goes on this huge transformation and returns to the pride as someone that\u0026rsquo;s completely different. He can\u0026rsquo;t really relate to what he used to be. He\u0026rsquo;s undergone this psychological transformation.\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s important with this with model of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey is that it\u0026rsquo;s not just some technique to apply to like storytelling, it\u0026rsquo;s not like \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to write a novel I better follow these 17 phases and then someone will read it and they\u0026rsquo;ll be hooked and it\u0026rsquo;s going to be amazing\u0026rdquo;.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not really what it\u0026rsquo;s about, it\u0026rsquo;s much more than that.\nThe Hero\u0026rsquo;s Journey is a framework by which people analyse stories. This is the way that you relate to stories that happen in real life and in novels and stories and it\u0026rsquo;s a way that you can look in your own life.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a way that you can look at things that you do and you can frame them in this context of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey.\nFor example, in my life, next year i\u0026rsquo;m traveling to Melbourne to begin work. So right now in the context of the heroes journey i\u0026rsquo;m right at the start. I\u0026rsquo;m in the departure stage.\nIf you frame that in terms of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey, I know that there\u0026rsquo;s going to be challenges and things I need to face and no doubt be somewhat difficult to get used to living in. I also know that at the end there\u0026rsquo;s the return. There\u0026rsquo;s the psychological transformation. There\u0026rsquo;s this new person that will be created at the end of this journey.\nSo i encourage you all to to apply this to your own lives. The Hero\u0026rsquo;s Journey does get used in in psychology. If someone\u0026rsquo;s facing trouble they can frame it in terms of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey. How they\u0026rsquo;re going through struggle and how that relates to them being the hero of their life. How they can help resolve that struggle by staying in that frame.\nSo I encourage you all to to look at your life through the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey context.\nRemember that YOU are the main character of your life. YOU are the hero of your journey.\n","date":"8 December 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/the-heros-journey/","section":"Writing","summary":"The following is a speech I gave at Toastmasters.\nHeroes .\nHeroes are all around us. Whether they’re in film, movies, books or in real life. Heroes are everywhere.\n","title":"The Hero's Journey","type":"posts"},{"content":"Are we living in a simulation?\nMaybe.\nBut does it really matter?\nWhat aspects of your life would change if you knew that we were living in a simulation?\nQuestions like this are ones that are interesting thought experiments, but provide no use for us. There is nothing about our lives that would change if we knew the answer.\nInstead of questions like this, focus your energy on questions and people that do matter. Things that, if you knew the answer, you\u0026rsquo;d do something differently.\n","date":"30 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201210/","section":"Others","summary":"Are we living in a simulation?\nMaybe.\nBut does it really matter?\nWhat aspects of your life would change if you knew that we were living in a simulation?\nQuestions like this are ones that are interesting thought experiments, but provide no use for us. There is nothing about our lives that would change if we knew the answer.\n","title":"Simulation","type":"other"},{"content":"The Interesting Number Paradox states that every natural number is interesting.\nEvery number is interesting! Wow.\nThis is a mathematical paradox, and can be proved by contradiction.\nConsider we have a set of numbers that are all not interesting.\nOne of these numbers is the smallest, and this makes that number interesting!\nThis means that number is now no longer a part of our set of non-interesting numbers, so we remove it.\nWe then use this process to remove all numbers from the non-interesting set and conclude that all numbers are in fact interesting.\nThis can extrapolate to other areas.\nAll days are interesting.\nAll people are interesting.\nAll moments are interesting.\nWho would have thought.\nSo take a moment today, to see all the interesting moments all around you.\n","date":"30 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201209/","section":"Others","summary":"The Interesting Number Paradox states that every natural number is interesting.\nEvery number is interesting! Wow.\nThis is a mathematical paradox, and can be proved by contradiction.\nConsider we have a set of numbers that are all not interesting.\n","title":"Interesting Number Paradox","type":"other"},{"content":"The following is a speech I gave at Toastmasters.\nHeroes .\nHeroes are all around us. Whether they\u0026rsquo;re in film, movies, books or in real life. Heroes are everywhere.\nThey show us the way.\nWe look to them like the beacon of light\nEveryone aspires to be like famous heroes heroes like\nluke skywalker jacinta ardern henry ford princess diana All these people are famous and have done great things. We all aspire to be like them\nOne thing you might not know though, is that heroes all have something in common.\nBack in 1949 Joseph Campbell wrote a book called \u0026lsquo;A Hero with A Thousand Faces\u0026rsquo; and in this book he outlines the 17 different phases that go into a hero\u0026rsquo;s journey.\nThese are consistent across every single kind of hero that there is, but they\u0026rsquo;re most commonly found in in film or books.\nThese 17 phases consist of three main acts which are,\nthe departure the initiation the return The departure act this is where the hero is beginning their journey. You know, the start of the movie. The hero doesn\u0026rsquo;t really know what\u0026rsquo;s going on, they\u0026rsquo;re a bit shy and then they leave this place that they\u0026rsquo;re from and they begin the journey.\nThis is like in the lion king where Simba\u0026rsquo;s dad dies and he leaves the pride and goes on his journey. Or in Star Wars where Luke Skywalker is asked by Obi-Wan to leave his home planet and travel to Alderaan. Or in Harry Potter where Harry gets the letter to travel to Hogwarts.\nThese are all scenarios where the hero is asked to to rise up to something greater than themselves.\nThis act is also typically accompanied by some kind of mentor or friendship group that allows the hero to step up.\nNext, the initiation.\nThis is really the meat of the story. This is where the hero begins to learn more about the world. They get exposed to things that are outside of their previous world view.\nIn the Lion King this is where Simba is traveling through the forest with Timone and Pumba discovering all these things that he never thought existed. This is like Star Wars where Luke Skywalker is going out to the death star. He\u0026rsquo;s rescuing Leia, he\u0026rsquo;s seeing clones he\u0026rsquo;s doing all these amazing things. This is like Harry Potter, where Harry is in Hogwarts discovering all these things about magic, he\u0026rsquo;s discovering all these new things he never never knew existed.\nFinally, the last phase the most important: the return.\nThis is where the hero achieves some amazing goal, they do something great and then they return back to where they\u0026rsquo;re originally from as a changed person having undergone some sort of transformation.\nSo, the Lion King. Simba comes back to the pride, defeats Scar and rises up as the new leader of the pride, the new hero of the land. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker blows up the death star and returns to the resistance as a hero of the rebel alliance. Or Harry Potter where Harry defeats Voldemort and returns back to Hogwarts as a new hero.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s pretty incredible. I\u0026rsquo;ve just done three movies but these principles apply to every almost every single movie. One thing that\u0026rsquo;s one thing that\u0026rsquo;s very interesting is the the transformation that goes on with the character.\nSimba is a great example. He starts off the movie as this naive young thing, doesn\u0026rsquo;t really know what he\u0026rsquo;s doing.\nHe goes on this huge transformation and returns to the pride as someone that\u0026rsquo;s completely different. He can\u0026rsquo;t really relate to what he used to be. He\u0026rsquo;s undergone this psychological transformation.\nWhat\u0026rsquo;s important with this with model of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey is that it\u0026rsquo;s not just some technique to apply to like storytelling, it\u0026rsquo;s not like \u0026ldquo;I\u0026rsquo;m going to write a novel I better follow these 17 phases and then someone will read it and they\u0026rsquo;ll be hooked and it\u0026rsquo;s going to be amazing\u0026rdquo;.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s not really what it\u0026rsquo;s about, it\u0026rsquo;s much more than that.\nThe Hero\u0026rsquo;s Journey is a framework by which people analyse stories. This is the way that you relate to stories that happen in real life and in novels and stories and it\u0026rsquo;s a way that you can look in your own life.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s a way that you can look at things that you do and you can frame them in this context of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey.\nFor example, in my life, next year i\u0026rsquo;m traveling to Melbourne to begin work. So right now in the context of the heroes journey i\u0026rsquo;m right at the start. I\u0026rsquo;m in the departure stage.\nIf you frame that in terms of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey, I know that there\u0026rsquo;s going to be challenges and things I need to face and no doubt be somewhat difficult to get used to living in. I also know that at the end there\u0026rsquo;s the return. There\u0026rsquo;s the psychological transformation. There\u0026rsquo;s this new person that will be created at the end of this journey.\nSo i encourage you all to to apply this to your own lives. The Hero\u0026rsquo;s Journey does get used in in psychology. If someone\u0026rsquo;s facing trouble they can frame it in terms of the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey. How they\u0026rsquo;re going through struggle and how that relates to them being the hero of their life. How they can help resolve that struggle by staying in that frame.\nSo I encourage you all to to look at your life through the hero\u0026rsquo;s journey context.\nRemember that YOU are the main character of your life. YOU are the hero of your journey.\n","date":"30 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201208/","section":"Others","summary":"The following is a speech I gave at Toastmasters.\nHeroes .\nHeroes are all around us. Whether they’re in film, movies, books or in real life. Heroes are everywhere.\n","title":"The Hero's Journey","type":"other"},{"content":"TCP is a protocol of the internet. It ensures the safe transfer of information between clients and servers.\nTCP is a bidirectional process, which means that a connection between A and B can facilitate data transfers from A to B and also B to A.\nThis is established with what is known as the syn-syn/ack-ack process, called a three way handshake.\nFirst the application A sends a sync requenst to B. B then acknowledges the request (ack) and requests a sync to A which then sends the final acknowledgement (ack).\nTCP is unique in that the order that information is received is checked. If something doesn\u0026rsquo;t come in the correct position, or doesn\u0026rsquo;t arrive at all, the TCP protocol will wait until all the information has arrived in the correct order.\nTCP sends data in segments. Each segment has a maximum segment size which defines how much data can be in each segment. Each segment has a header, and various other information that defines aspects of that segment.\nAn example can be seen below1.\nTCP is used for the following protocols\nhttp https ftp (file transfer) smtp (email) Kurose, J.F. and Ross, K.W., Computer networking: A top-down approach (pp. 607967-5). Addison Wesley.\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"30 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201207/","section":"Others","summary":"TCP is a protocol of the internet. It ensures the safe transfer of information between clients and servers.\nTCP is a bidirectional process, which means that a connection between A and B can facilitate data transfers from A to B and also B to A.\n","title":"What is TCP","type":"other"},{"content":"Read this article if you\nDon\u0026rsquo;t know anything about BASH Want to learn some basic BASH commands BASH stands for Bourne-Again SHell, as it was written to replace the Bourne shell.\nBASH commands can be directly written into a shell, or can be placed into a .sh script.\nA shell is basically just your terminal. You will need a unix shell for these commands to work, which means either using MacOS, Linux or using WSL for Windows.\nBASH Commands # Very simple commands that are pretty cool are things like cal which returns a calendar, whoami which returns your username. Other ones like cd, ls, date are also useful.\nThese can be combined to create cool things.\nLet\u0026rsquo;s look at creating a hello world script like hello_world.sh\nAll we need to write is the following\necho hello world This prints \u0026lsquo;hello world\u0026rsquo; to our screen, perfect!\nBASH can do other incredible things. In fact, it\u0026rsquo;s almost just as good as any other programming language.\nHere we can see a list of cool things you can do in bash: https://github.com/awesome-lists/awesome-bash\nThings like\nminesweeper small http servers Are just a small example of the things you can do in BASH.\nYou can even use something call cron to automate your BASH scripts to run at certain times.\nThis is really useful for things like\nupdating package managers backing up files In fact, pushing information to this blog could very well be done as a cron job in BASH.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;d like to learn more about BASH functions etc, there is a useful tutorial here\n","date":"30 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201206/","section":"Others","summary":"Read this article if you\nDon’t know anything about BASH Want to learn some basic BASH commands BASH stands for Bourne-Again SHell, as it was written to replace the Bourne shell.\nBASH commands can be directly written into a shell, or can be placed into a .sh script.\n","title":"Basics of BASH","type":"other"},{"content":"It\u0026rsquo;s like you\u0026rsquo;re going fishing.\nYou get all your fishing gear, get in the boat, and find yourself a spot.\nYou set up, put your rod in the water, and begin to fish.\n\u0026lsquo;Success\u0026rsquo; in this case, is getting a fish. But so far, all that has happened is hard work leading up to the result.\nWe know that getting your gear, getting in the boat etc are things we need to do to catch the fish.\nYet when the fish finally gets stuck onto the hook and we reel it into the boat, the success of catching the fish appears to be instantaneous.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s the same when attempting a maths problem. At first you might not get it. Maybe after a few days you still don\u0026rsquo;t know how to approach it.\nEventually, you might have this \u0026lsquo;a-ha\u0026rsquo; moment, and you will realise how to complete the problem.\nSo often you hear about projects that appear to have had huge breakthroughs, and it can seem like this is not going to be possible for us.\nWhat we all need to understand is the work and thought that goes on behind the scenes to create this apparent, instant success.\nChances are, that anyone that is successful had been applying themselves in some way for many years before they reached their \u0026lsquo;success\u0026rsquo;.\nThis is also important to think about in the context of your own life.\nEven though you may be plugging away, doing what seems to be meaningless tasks.\nYou never know how these can turn around to help you catch that fish of \u0026lsquo;instant success\u0026rsquo;.\n","date":"30 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201205/","section":"Others","summary":"It’s like you’re going fishing.\nYou get all your fishing gear, get in the boat, and find yourself a spot.\nYou set up, put your rod in the water, and begin to fish.\n","title":"Non-Linear Nature of Progress","type":"other"},{"content":"Windows used to be bad for programming, but not anymore.\nOne of the main drawbacks for Windows is that it doesn\u0026rsquo;t have a unix shell.\nMacOS and Linux, are both unix based operating systems, and they both have a unix shell.\nA unix shell means that the user has a much wider array of terminal commands that can be used. For example BASH commands.\nThis means that, from a programming perspective, MacOS and Linux are superior.\nDespite lacking unix shell commands, it seems that windows is not actually that bad for programming.\n2019\u0026rsquo;s Stackoverflow report for OS usage put Windows at 49.3% for \u0026ldquo;Professional developers\u0026rdquo; with MacOS at 29.2% and Linux at 25.3%. So about half of software developers still use windows.\nOne piece of software that has enabled this is known as WSL and WSL2.\nWSL stands for Windows Subsystem for Linux.\nprovides a Linux-compatible kernel interface developed by Microsoft, containing no Linux kernel code, which can then run a GNU user space on top of it, such as that of Ubuntu1\nThis means that programmers can get both the benefits of programming, with the stability and support of Windows.\nPreviously I\u0026rsquo;d been told that Windows was basically just a piece of junk for programming and that your best bet would be to partition your hard drive and install linux. Now it\u0026rsquo;s possible to have a linux kernel interface inside your windows installation.\nMagic.\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"30 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201204/","section":"Others","summary":"Windows used to be bad for programming, but not anymore.\nOne of the main drawbacks for Windows is that it doesn’t have a unix shell.\nMacOS and Linux, are both unix based operating systems, and they both have a unix shell.\n","title":"Is Windows Bad for Programming?","type":"other"},{"content":"I missed a day.\nToday I\u0026rsquo;m writing this on the 4th of December.\nThis post was suppossed to be out yesterday, on the 3rd.\nThis is a minor hiccup.\nThe most important thing in this situation is to continue from where I left off, and not let this derail me.\nYou see I wasn\u0026rsquo;t very motivated to even write this post.\nThe thoughts in my head were things like \u0026ldquo;you already missed one, who cares\u0026rdquo;, \u0026ldquo;no-one even reads these posts anyway\u0026rdquo;.\nIf I\u0026rsquo;m going to build an audience then it shouldn\u0026rsquo;t actually matter if people read what I write at all. My motivation to write and share my knowledge comes from within, not from the external.\nThe second point is of missing one post, now I can miss another. The \u0026ldquo;you already missed one, who cares\u0026rdquo;.\nMissing one post has kind of ruined the momentum that I had early last week.\nBut as we know from the great film Rocky Balboa\nBut it ain\u0026rsquo;t about how hard you hit.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward.\nThat\u0026rsquo;s how winning is done!\nSo by missing a post, I have taken a minor hit.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s time to keep moving forward.\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201203/","section":"Others","summary":"I missed a day.\nToday I’m writing this on the 4th of December.\nThis post was suppossed to be out yesterday, on the 3rd.\nThis is a minor hiccup.\nThe most important thing in this situation is to continue from where I left off, and not let this derail me.\n","title":"Keep Moving Forward","type":"other"},{"content":"Updated 3/12 with completed grades information.\nToday, I was given all of my university grades for the past semester.\nOf the grades I got back, I have 3 High Distinctions and 1 Distinction.\nI am very pleased with my work, and this result means I will finish my degree with a \u0026gt;6 GPA (Distinction Average).\nThis excellent performance this semester wasn\u0026rsquo;t always the case for me.\nTake a look at this image with my average grades for my entire degree.\nThe first two bars are my grades from my previous degree before I changed to Maths and Finance. The EXCH bar is from when I went on exchange to Sheffield.\nAs you can see, there has been dramatic improvement in my grades over time.\nAnd while it\u0026rsquo;s crucial to not rate your university performance solely on your grades, I think there has been improvement across my whole life.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve learnt to take tasks more seriously, and do the best I can. Sometimes in my past I would just coast through subjects and not really try. But now I have learnt to grind out good results much more effectively and efficiently.\nThis trend gives me hope.\nIt also means to me, that even in the areas of my life that I struggle with right now, like writing. That there are ways to improve and see results. All it takes is some hard work and dedication.\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201202/","section":"Others","summary":"Updated 3/12 with completed grades information.\nToday, I was given all of my university grades for the past semester.\nOf the grades I got back, I have 3 High Distinctions and 1 Distinction.\nI am very pleased with my work, and this result means I will finish my degree with a \u003e6 GPA (Distinction Average).\n","title":"Continuous Improvement","type":"other"},{"content":"The following was my solution to my University Data Science Exam. In this question we were expected to explain our chosen model to someone with a non-statistics university degree.\nFor this question I chose a decision tree, alternatively known as CART.\nMy answer is listed below.\nData Science: Exam Question 3 # Outline # CART stands for Classification and Regression Tree. The CART model is a tree based model that can be used for both regression and classification. Regression is useful where we\u0026rsquo;d like to consider a numerical value, like what the temperature will be tomorrow. While classification is when we would like to predict a category, for example if it is going to rain tomorrow (yes or no). Fortunately, CART models can be used for either of these problems.\nA tree based model is one that uses nested if/then statements.\nConsider the example of predicting if you should take an umbrella to work tomorrow. A tree based model could consider answering this question in the following way,\nIs the forecast for MORE than 30 degrees tomorrow? Then I don\u0026rsquo;t need an umbrella\nIs the forecast for LESS than 30 degrees tomorrow? Then I need to ask if it\u0026rsquo;s going to rain.\nIs it forecast to rain tomorrow? Then I will need an umbrella.\nIs it NOT forecast to rain tomorrow? Then I will NOT need an umbrella.\nFrom this example, one can get an idea of how a tree based model works.\nImage from Towards Data Science1\nThe above diagram showcases another, well illustrated example, of how a tree based algorithm works.\nIn more complex terms, what is occurring at each step is a split of the set into 2 groups so that the error is minimised. This occurs until the maximum tree depth is reached.\nNext there can be a pruning stage. This process assumes that the tree has probably fit the data too well, and won\u0026rsquo;t do well on a test set. In this case the tree will be pruned and the least important branches will be removed. This means that the final model is more simple and will likely extrapolate better to unseen data.\nAdvantages and Disadvantages # There are many advantages to tree based models such as CART.\nThey are easy to explain. Trees can also be put into diagrams, such as the one above, that make understanding the conclusions of the model very simple. The approach is similar to how a human would approach the problem. In the umbrella example above, the way a person would use that logic is very similar to how these algorithms work. However there are also some disadvantages\nTrees may not have the best accuracy Trees can change dramatically based on small changes in the data set In order to solve these problems, more complicated tree methods are often used like Bagging, Boosting and Random Forests.\nTuning # Tuning parameters are those that are not provided by a formula, but must be given by the user. In a CART model, the parameters that can be tuned are the tree depth and the cost.\nThe model would be tuned by fitting CART models to the data using different tree depths, and considering which model has the lowest error rate. For example a CART with depth 1 would be fit, then depth 2, all up until depth 10.\nIn the case of classification, the best model could be decided by the mis-classification rate, that is, what percentage of outcomes were classified correctly from the total.\nIn the case of regression, the best model could be decided by one that has the lowest RMSE. That is, the lowest squared error between the predicted values and the actual values.\nThese error rates are taken after the model is fit using cross validation. The data is first split into a number of parts. The model is then fit on all parts except for 1, and the error rates obtained. The model is then fit and tested in the same way for all parts. If the data is split into $K$ portions, then there would be $K$ error samples. This means there is a much better idea of how the model is performing, rather than just testing on one training and testing set.\nIn the same way as tree depth, cross validation can also be used to find the optimal cost parameter $\\alpha$.\nThe final model will then be fit using the best parameters found during the tuning process.\nhttps://towardsdatascience.com/https-medium-com-lorrli-classification-and-regression-analysis-with-decision-trees-c43cdbc58054\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201201/","section":"Others","summary":"The following was my solution to my University Data Science Exam. In this question we were expected to explain our chosen model to someone with a non-statistics university degree.\nFor this question I chose a decision tree, alternatively known as CART.\n","title":"What is a Decision Tree","type":"other"},{"content":"We all have these things. Things that we \u0026lsquo;want\u0026rsquo; to do, but we don\u0026rsquo;t have time so we will do that later.\nThings like\nstarting a blog starting a youtube channel learning that new skill meditating I have found that one simple truth holds for all of thes kinds of activities.\nYou will never have time. It\u0026rsquo;s just a matter of priorities.\nIf you don\u0026rsquo;t start that youtube channel because you \u0026lsquo;don\u0026rsquo;t have time\u0026rsquo;, don\u0026rsquo;t try to trick yourself. It\u0026rsquo;s because you think its a kind of cool idea, but you don\u0026rsquo;t want to start it bad enough. You like the idea more than actually doing it.\nI was listening to one of my heroes Owen Cook recently1, and he was talking about how when it comes to your goals, you should rather die than not do them. That is, you are so certain that you will put in the work that you would rather die.\nHe uses the example of going to the gym. Even if he arrives home from holiday, late at night, so ready to go to sleep. He goes to the gym. Because the goal is so important that he would have to die before he missed a session.\nWould you let your child be hit by a car? Absolutely not. Would you miss a day in the gym?\nThe reality is, if you can\u0026rsquo;t do these simple tasks, then how are you going to be able to live your dreams?\nThis blog is an excellent example of that. I\u0026rsquo;m now one week into this. I could easily give up and miss a day or two which would then spiral into me giving up this entire process.\nBut I would rather die than miss one of these blog posts.\nThis kind of conviction has been lacking for me in the past. I have thought of grand ideas that sound excellent, but the follow through was never there. Because I didn\u0026rsquo;t believe enough in my abilities and let my progress slip.\nNow that has changed. I understand that missing a blog post also means that I am giving up on my dreams. These may not seem like the same thing, but they are. If we can\u0026rsquo;t do these simple tasks like showing up and writing a short blog post, how can we be expected to lead people to a better life.\nEven the small and insignificant things you do are all practice for the big show.\nFood for thought.\nJames\nThis talk is called \u0026lsquo;The Truth About Success - Why You Should Rather Die Than Miss A Day In The Gym\u0026rsquo;. I\u0026rsquo;m not sure if it\u0026rsquo;s still online but it is excellent and I highly recommend it.\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201130/","section":"Others","summary":"We all have these things. Things that we ‘want’ to do, but we don’t have time so we will do that later.\nThings like\nstarting a blog starting a youtube channel learning that new skill meditating I have found that one simple truth holds for all of thes kinds of activities.\n","title":"There Will NEVER Be Time","type":"other"},{"content":"Today marks the first day of what may be my last ever trip with my family.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve been very lucky over the years to go on trips with my family to places all over Australia. We\u0026rsquo;ve been to many places and experienced many good times together.\nNext year I am leaving Adelaide to begin working in Melbourne. I\u0026rsquo;m moving out of home and beginning a new journey.\nThis means that this family holiday could be the last one ever.\nThe last time I can experience my family on an adventure together.\nThis does seem like a special moment, but the reality is that these. moment are happening around us all the time.\nA few weeks ago, my youngest brother turned 18. Last year my Grandpa had his 80th birthday. Last week I finished my university degree.\nAll of these moments are special, unique and deserve to be remembered.\nI really want to be able to treasure these moments, enjoy the company of my family and take everything in.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t want to be particiapting in these occaisons and be distracted with things that are going on in my life, that really are not important compared to the events taking place in front of me.\nI think one of the keys to being more present is meditation.\nBeing able to shut your mind off and experience the moment fully, to be fully present, is exactly what I want to do in these moments, and exactly what meditation helps you practice.\nMeditation is also one of those things that get forgotten from your routine. It\u0026rsquo;s one of those things that sounds good, but never really gets done.\nI want to experience these important moments more fully, so I plan to meditate much more consistently.\nOne app that I use is Sam Harris\u0026rsquo; Waking Up. I\u0026rsquo;ve found it has absolutely improved my practice and ability to be present. I highly recommend it.\nI think that being present is very important. So go and Take in Every Moment!\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201129/","section":"Others","summary":"Today marks the first day of what may be my last ever trip with my family.\nI’ve been very lucky over the years to go on trips with my family to places all over Australia. We’ve been to many places and experienced many good times together.\n","title":"Take In Every Moment","type":"other"},{"content":"On completing my university studies\nSo my time in university is over. Unless I return to do a masters degree, I won\u0026rsquo;t be back in a university for some time.\nI have now completed 5 years at university, graduating with a Bachelor of Mathematical and Computer Sciences with a Bachelor of Finance.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s time to do a short reflection on my time at uni.\nCould I have done better with my grades? Probably\nCould I have used those 5 years better? Maybe\nShould I have just dropped out and self-taught myself everything? Potentially\nDid I have a good time, meet amazing people, learn about things and learn about myself? Definitely.\nExperiences # One thing that is really good about university is meeting other people who are in the same stage of life as yourself. I met many new friends through university, many of whom will be my friends for many years to come.\nChanging Degrees # At then end of my first year at uni, I changed degrees from Mechanical Engineering.\nI initially started this degree because most of my friends were also doing it. It\u0026rsquo;s a fairly decent idea considering I had no idea what I wanted to do when I left school, but I found myself not really enjoying things and wanted a change.\nI was researching financial topics when I decided that I should just study finance at uni! A very good idea!\nPlus I also wanted to do something to sound smart so I kept on doing Maths as well. What a great combination!\nFortunately for me, this combination has given me many opportunities and has set me up very well for many different, lucrative, career paths.\nStudying Overseas # From January to June in 2019 I studied overseas at the University of Sheffield in the UK. This was a fantastic experience for me.\nI got out of my comfort zone, and into real life. I was finally able to live my life on my own terms.\nWhile my focus when I was away was certainly not on my academics, I excelled in other areas.\nIn fact, my first semester back, my grades improved by 25%.\nI came back with a renewed confidence and new desires to achieve the things I really wanted.\nDo it again? # In today\u0026rsquo;s world I see so much about how university is garbage and no-one should do it.\nI see posts like \u0026lsquo;don\u0026rsquo;t go to uni! just teach yourself at home in 1 year!\u0026rsquo;.\nThis is definitely possible, and I really think the education system will change incredibly over the next 10-20 years.\nAt the same time though, the opportunities that I took and the people I met along the way have absolutely made my life more fulfilling and enjoyable.\nYou can\u0026rsquo;t go back and change time, and I am very grateful for the experiences that I have been afforded.\nAnother blog containing all my university tips will come out soon!\nJames\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201128/","section":"Others","summary":"On completing my university studies\nSo my time in university is over. Unless I return to do a masters degree, I won’t be back in a university for some time.\nI have now completed 5 years at university, graduating with a Bachelor of Mathematical and Computer Sciences with a Bachelor of Finance.\n","title":"Completing University","type":"other"},{"content":"The following is my solution a practice exam paper with the following brief\nAn important part of a data scientist’s toolbox is the ability to clean data. To assess your ability to do this, you are required to explain the key goals of data cleaning and how it is applied in tidymodels.\nWrite a brief report explaining data cleaning and how to apply it in tidymodels. The report should be less than two pages.\nData Cleaning # Why Data Cleaning # Cleaning data, removing skewness and outliers can result in significant increases in model performance. Some models, like tree based models, are not as affected by the irregularities of the underlying data as is a linear regression for example. It\u0026rsquo;s important then that the data cleaning is done with the chosen model in mind.\nReproducibility # All data cleaning steps should be reproducible. A simple way to record and create a reproducible set of actions is through a recipe in the R library tidymodels.\nMissing Data # Data may be missing from the dataset for a few reasons. We can define 2 types of missing data as missing at random (MAR) and missing completely at random (MCAR). MCAR is associated with the data collection process. When data has gone missing in this way, it is completely random and has no relation to any other feature. Assuming the features are missing completely at random, there are a number of ways of proceeding 1\nDiscard observations with any missing values. Rely on the learning algorithm to deal with missing values in its training phase. Impute all missing values before training. (1) is a good option if there is only a limited amount of missing data. We want to maximise the amount of data that can be used so this would not be a good choice if there is a large amount of missing data. (2) This only applies to some models and thus isn\u0026rsquo;t always an option (3) This is the most common option. An easy way to impute missing values is through replacing them with the mean or median of the non-missing values of that feature. Another alternative is to create a new model to predict the missing values of each feature. For example using the CART method. Once the data has been imputed it is treated as though it has been observed.\nActions that can be added to the recipe include step_meanimpute() for numerical variables or step_modeimpute() for categorical variables.\nVariable Conversion # When the dataset is first recieved it is also important to make sure the features are encoded properly. For example using the term in R as.numeric will convert a column to a numeric variable. Commonly, a feature of type \u0026lsquo;character\u0026rsquo; should be converted to a factor using the command mutate_if(is.character, factor).\nOther problems that may occur during this process could be a large number of factors or mis-labelled ones that can cause problems. For example 4wd and 4WD should be considered as the same factor. There may also be multiple sub-types that are not useful, or overcomplicate the analysis. For example front 6 and front 4 could both be considered front wheel drive in order to simplify the model. To do this we could use code like the following\ncars2010 %\u0026gt;% mutate( drive = case_when( str_detect(drive_desc, \u0026#34;Front\u0026#34;) ~ \u0026#34;front\u0026#34;, str_detect(drive_desc, \u0026#34;Rear\u0026#34;) ~ \u0026#34;rear\u0026#34;, TRUE ~ \u0026#34;4WD\u0026#34; ) ) This kind of strategy is also useful to fix data that has been entered incorrectly. One big problem that can occur during the data collection process is that data is entered differently or incorrectly to what it should be. For example if you have two different people that are typing in words like \u0026lsquo;Front WD\u0026rsquo; and \u0026lsquo;Front\u0026rsquo; as their input for \u0026lsquo;Front Wheel Drive\u0026rsquo;. This would lead to many different factors in R, that should be identical. This would need to be fixed in the data cleaning process, and can be done using the techniques displayed above.\nData Transformations # The model may also contain variables that are skewed or variables that are unstable for the model. In the case of skewness the box-cox method can be added to the recipe. The box-cox method identifies the best transformation of the data to minimise the skewness. This can be added to the recipe with step_BoxCox() Other transformations like centreing and scaling the data can also be useful, but also make the results more difficult to interpret as the units have been changed2. These can be added to the recipe with step_center() and step_scale(), but they can both be done in one step with step_normalize()\nT. Hastie, R. Tibshirani, and J. Friedman. The Elements of Statistical Learning. Springer, New York, 2009\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nM. Kuhn and K. Johnson. Applied Predictive Modeling. Springer, New York, 2013\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201127/","section":"Others","summary":"The following is my solution a practice exam paper with the following brief\nAn important part of a data scientist’s toolbox is the ability to clean data. To assess your ability to do this, you are required to explain the key goals of data cleaning and how it is applied in tidymodels.\n","title":"The Data Cleaning Process","type":"other"},{"content":"When elite sportspeople win their events, you can see the emotion in their eyes.\nI encourage you to watch the short video below.\nThis video is an incredible example of someone that has given everything they have to reach their goal.\nThe chase has finally paid off. They\u0026rsquo;ve done it.\nYears and years of hard work has finally paid off. Now, they bask in a wirlwind of emotions and the joy of victory.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s amazing to see people that overcome obstacles to win, and also to see people push the limits of human achievement.\nSo what? # Recently I was having a conversation with a friend about this topic.\nWe were sitting in a pub, watching some sport, and I asked him what would cause him to get that excited and emotional.\nWhat is he chasing at the moment that would give him that rush, and that taste of victory?\nAt the time my friend was actually pursuing a big goal, so he had a good answer.\nBut I didn\u0026rsquo;t.\nSo it got me thinking, why don\u0026rsquo;t I have some lofty goal that I am gunning for and trying to achieve. Why is my life so boring that I\u0026rsquo;m not chasing anything!\nBecause in my opinion, life is all about the chase.\nThe chase of gains in the gym.\nThe chase of learning.\nThe chase of a better life.\nSo I ask you, reader, what exactly are you chasing?\nWhat goal do you have that is so great and mightly that if you achieve it you would fall on your knees and begin to cry?\nWhat goal do you have that is so extraordinary that you will put in hard work for an extended period of time to achieve?\nWhat is your gold medal moment?\nI have found it very difficult to answer these questions. However, I know that answering them will provide meaning and purpose to my life that is unparalleled.\nSo I challenge you, reader. If you don\u0026rsquo;t already have a lofty goal that you are chasing, go out and get one!\nAfter all, the juice is almost always worth the squeeze.\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201125/","section":"Others","summary":"When elite sportspeople win their events, you can see the emotion in their eyes.\nI encourage you to watch the short video below.\nThis video is an incredible example of someone that has given everything they have to reach their goal.\n","title":"Gold Medal Moments","type":"other"},{"content":"The infinite field of creativity.\nThree days ago, I set myself a challenge. To create one blog post for every day until the end of January. This would make 10 weeks of blog posting, 70 posts in total.\nDespite it being only 3 days. I have been reinvigorated with the prospect of creating.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve been thinking about all those times that I had created in the past, and how I excited I had been to create and release my work to the world.\nThe Creativity Experience # In my early high-school days I had a youtube channel with a friend, and we created videos of us playing Call of Duty. I remember being so excited to release a new video, looking forward to my creation going out into the world. Despite not getting many view at all (I think we had around 100-200 subscribers and about 10-100 views on each video) I enjoyed the process so much.\nI used to sit down and plan my youtube videos. At one stage I was recording myself playing this obscure game called Raze 2. I remember playing through the entire game and recording all of it, having my videos planned out for the weeks ahead. It was super exciting.\nI remembered back to when I was in a band in my later years of high school. I would sit down with my guitar and try to create music for our next album. Despite the fact that we didn\u0026rsquo;t have any fans or that my music was never really heard by anyone, I thoroughly enjoyed making music.\nEven now, as I write these posts, I am planning ahead, excited for what I can write about in the future. Excited to see the potential come to fruition.\nThe Creativity Trap # During school I was never any good at art. I was always more into numbers, science and technology. I was much better at these subjects too.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not sure how it happened by I think I mistook this poor performance in classes like art, to mean that I wasn\u0026rsquo;t very creative. That I couldn\u0026rsquo;t invent something exciting or new.\nAs I reflect on my experiences, I don\u0026rsquo;t think this is very true.\nThe Creativity Instinct # I wonder if there is something there, something that is inside us that enjoys creating.\nSomething that enjoys tapping into the infinite field of creativity, and finding something incredible.\nBecause even though no-one may be watching, it\u0026rsquo;s still worthwhile.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t need people watching my youtube videos in 2012 to have fun.\nI didn\u0026rsquo;t need people listening to my songs in 2014 to have fun.\nAnd you certainly don\u0026rsquo;t need people watching you in order to get started.\nWe are all on a journey. Feel the rush, and CREATE!\n","date":"25 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201126/","section":"Others","summary":"The infinite field of creativity.\nThree days ago, I set myself a challenge. To create one blog post for every day until the end of January. This would make 10 weeks of blog posting, 70 posts in total.\n","title":"The Creativity Instinct","type":"other"},{"content":"So it begins.\nI\u0026rsquo;ve really wanted to step out of my comfort zone recently. In particular, I\u0026rsquo;ve wanted to start creating content vs just consuming.\nI see this challenge as my first step towards making this a habit.\nYou see, I\u0026rsquo;m just about to finish my university studies, and am facing yet another 10 week period where I don\u0026rsquo;t have much to do. This time, I\u0026rsquo;m going to make the most of it.\nEvery single year the summer holidays begin and I always have grand plans about what exactly I\u0026rsquo;m going to do. All these plans to create and learn, but they often never come to be as I\u0026rsquo;d hoped.\nI see this blog and content creation in general being that opportunity to flex this creativity muscle, and get myself into a creative mindset, rather than just mindlessly consuming information.\nSo TODAY marks the beginning of this journey.\nMy plans for the next 10 weeks will be as follows\nUpdate the main blog section every day with my progress and adjusted aims Create at least one Youtube Video per week (minimum 10 across the 10 weeks) Learn Stuff! Docker is something people in Dev-ops use that I want to learn more about: Docker in a Day Functional Programming. My friend has started a functional programming meetup that I\u0026rsquo;ve been attending. It\u0026rsquo;s time to learn about how that stuff actually works I never did Mathematical Analysis at University so I\u0026rsquo;m really keen to learn some of the basics from here and here It\u0026rsquo;s not an exhaustive list, and it won\u0026rsquo;t take up my entire holidays, but these courses I think will be both interesting and useful to go through.\nOne thing that I really want to focus on overall is this idea of creation. Going through these courses or whatever it is that I might be doing needs to be accompanied with some form of documentation so that I can produce some content. This creation is how I will learn more and get the most out of these experiences.\nAfter all, almost everyone I look up to on social media or in real life is a producer. People I aspire to be like all produce content on a regular basis. This is what I will do these holidays.\n","date":"23 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201123/","section":"Others","summary":"So it begins.\nI’ve really wanted to step out of my comfort zone recently. In particular, I’ve wanted to start creating content vs just consuming.\nI see this challenge as my first step towards making this a habit.\n","title":"A New Start | 23 Nov, 2020","type":"other"},{"content":" What is Kubernetes? Post about the Seth Godin podcast on Tom Bilyeu? Routines The power of walking as cardio nature of innovation Efficiency vs stability FIRE the best mindset how does afterpay make money? University GPA (does it matter?) Japanese housing crash placebo effect ","date":"23 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/ideas/","section":"Others","summary":" What is Kubernetes? Post about the Seth Godin podcast on Tom Bilyeu? Routines The power of walking as cardio nature of innovation Efficiency vs stability FIRE the best mindset how does afterpay make money? University GPA (does it matter?) Japanese housing crash placebo effect ","title":"A New Start | 23 Nov, 2020","type":"other"},{"content":"So you\u0026rsquo;ve decided on your model for your dataset. How can we now go and see how good that model is?\nMaybe we can find the error rate for our training set, or the error from our test set.\nA better way to test the error of the model is through cross-validation.\nCross Validation (The Elements of Statistical Learning, Friedman) First we begin by partitioning the data up into $K$ sets of approximately equal size. Then for the $k$th part, we fit the model to the other $K-1$ parts and calculate the prediction error. This processes is completed for all $K$ sets.\nThere is a special case of cross validation where we have that $K = N$. That is, the number of sets is equal to the number of data points. We would therefore be leaving one item out in each training/prediction cycle. That is why this is known as Leave One Out Cross Validation (LOOCV).\nThis LOOCV is often not used because\nwe have to fit the model N times so it is very computationally expensive The models will be very similar which means we will have high correlation between samples and therefore high variance of the estimates It\u0026rsquo;s much more convenient to choose $K=5$ or $K=10$ for the cross validation. Although the accuracy of the estimate may be less since we are using less sets, the variance of the estimate will also be lower. This trade-off between bias and variance is known as the bias-variance tradeoff.\nBootstrap # One other very interesting statistical technique that is used to measure the accuracy of estimators or methods is the bootstrap.\nImagine we have a set of $N$ data points. We then create multiple sub-samples by sampling $N$ points from the main data set with replacement. So that means when we choose something from the set, we can choose that item again.\nWhat happens then is we have created our bootstrap samples.\nA quick look at the mathematics with proof here shows that about 63% of the data points will be contained at least once in each of the new samples.\nA very useful aspect to this bootstrap method means we can now calculate and get information about relevant statistics.\nFor example using the sample we can usually get a mean and standard deviation with no problems. Now, with the bootstrap, we can calculate the standard error for other statistics such as the median, which normally isn\u0026rsquo;t possible.\nWe can do this by getting the mean median for each bootstrap sample, and then calculating the standard deviation in the usual way.\nConclusion # I learnt the material for this blog post as part of my studies in Data Science at the University of Adelaide. The final exam will be completed on Friday the 27th of November! My last University exam ever.\n","date":"23 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/other/blog-challenge-posts/20201124/","section":"Others","summary":"So you’ve decided on your model for your dataset. How can we now go and see how good that model is?\nMaybe we can find the error rate for our training set, or the error from our test set.\n","title":"Data Science: Estimating Model Performance. Cross Validation and the Bootstrap","type":"other"},{"content":"Quick Links to my favourite posts\nGym Principles in Life 52 Books in a Year The Hero\u0026rsquo;s Journey You Will NEVER have Time Completing University Automating Homebrew Updates with Cron This is the homepage for my blog challenge over the summer break. My aim is to have a new blog post every single day (for 10 weeks). The last post will be made on the 31st of January, 2021.\nSome will be good, some will be bad. What\u0026rsquo;s most important to me is creating on a regular basis.\nThere are a few rules!\nNo minimum post length Posts must be written before or on the relevant day - no retrospectives Posts will relate to anything I am working on or what is going on in my life at that time The posts are listed in descending order below.\nSubscribe to my email list below\nSubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit Final Post - Wrap up and Reflections # Week 10: 25th January - 31st January # Week 9: 18th January - 24th January # 19 Jan, 2021: Leaving Gains On The Table\n18 Jan, 2021: Personality Changes\nWeek 8: 11th January - 17th January # 17 Jan, 2021: Thinking of Ideas\n16 Jan, 2021: Questions First\n15 Jan, 2021: I\u0026rsquo;ll be happy when\n14 Jan, 2021: How to Stay Motivated\n13 Jan, 2021: Show Your Work\n12 Jan, 2021: The Best Mindset\n11 Jan, 2021: A Clean Room is a Clean Mind\nWeek 7: 4th January - 10th January # 10 Jan, 2021: Politics\n9 Jan, 2021: The Halo Effect\n8 Jan, 2021: Life is a journey, not a destination\n7 Jan, 2021: Is Meat Bad for You?\n6 Jan, 2021: The Pursuit Of Happiness\n5 Jan, 2021: Risk Taking and Success\n4 Jan, 2021: Why Read Books\nWeek 6: 28th December - 3rd January # 3 Jan, 2021: 2 Lessons from 2020\n2 Jan, 2021: Who do I have to become to achieve this?\n1 Jan, 2021: New Year - New Me\n31 Dec, 2020: 52 Books in a Year\n30 Dec, 2020: 3 People at Dinner\n29 Dec, 2020: What You Think You Deserve\n28 Dec, 2020: Automating Homebrew Upgrade with Cron\nWeek 5: 21st December - 27th December # 27 Dec, 2020: Too Much Information\n26 Dec, 2020: Alcohol and Learning\n25 Dec, 2020: Merry Christmas!\n24 Dec, 2020: Addictive Emotions\n23 Dec, 2020: Sunrise Alarm Clocks\n22 Dec, 2020: Benefits of Fasting\n21 Dec, 2020: What is an Operating System?\nWeek 4: 14th December - 20th December # 20 Dec, 2020: Operation Systems fork() Method\n19 Dec, 2020: The Little Prince\n18 Dec, 2020: What is Docker?\n17 Dec, 2020: Trajectories\n16 Dec, 2020: The Ride Of A Lifetime - Review\n15 Dec, 2020: What makes an Entrepreneur?\n14 Dec, 2020: When is the time not appropriate for students to study?\nWeek 3: 7th December - 13th December # 13 Dec, 2020: Gym Principles in Life\n12 Dec, 2020: That Will Never Work - Netflix (Book Lessons)\n11 Dec, 2020: Progression\n10 Dec, 2020: Are We Living in a Simulation?\n9 Dec, 2020: Interesting Number Paradox\n8 Dec, 2020: The Hero\u0026rsquo;s Journey\n7 Dec, 2020: Basics of TCP\nWeek 2: 30st November - 6th December # 6 Dec, 2020: Basics of BASH\n5 Dec, 2020: Non-Linear Nature of Progress\n4 Dec, 2020: Is Windows Bad for Programming?\n4 Dec, 2020: Keep Moving Forward\n2 Dec, 2020: Continuous Improvement - University Grades\n1 Dec, 2020: What is a Decision Tree - Exam Solution\n30 Nov, 2020: You Will NEVER have Time\nWeek 1: 23rd - 29th November # 29 Nov, 2020: Take In Every Moment\n28 Nov, 2020: Completing University\n27 Nov, 2020: The Data Cleaning Process\n26 Nov, 2020: The Creativity Instinct\n25 Nov, 2020: Gold Medal Moments\n24 Nov, 2020: Data Science: Estimating Model Performance. Cross Validation and the Bootstrap\n23 Nov, 2020: A New Start\n","date":"23 November 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/blog-challenge/","section":"Writing","summary":"Quick Links to my favourite posts\nGym Principles in Life 52 Books in a Year The Hero’s Journey You Will NEVER have Time Completing University Automating Homebrew Updates with Cron This is the homepage for my blog challenge over the summer break. My aim is to have a new blog post every single day (for 10 weeks). The last post will be made on the 31st of January, 2021.\n","title":"Blog Challenge","type":"posts"},{"content":"Ever since I wrote my first program, I\u0026rsquo;ve been interested in computer systems and computer programming. One thing that I felt was missing from my computer knowledge was that deeper understanding of computers. At university I had only taken subjects relating to Algorithms, Data Structures and Problem Solving, but never things like Computer Architecture, Networking or Operating Systems.\nRecently, I embarked on a mission to solve this problem.\nOutline # Outline What Was the Challenge? {#challenge} Motivation Why did I decide to do this? {#decide} What did I learn? {#learn} What would I do differently? {#different} Should you do this? {#you} What Was the Challenge? # In order to learn these missing pieces of my computer knowledge, I decided to go through the entirety of CS162 in a single week. CS162 is an ~18 week course on Operating Systems offered at the University of Berkeley. Completing this course would give me a great understanding of how Operating Systems work and give me a deeper insight into what happens when I run various programs.\nFortunately for me, the course materials and lectures are all available for free online (course material, lectures).\nI was aiming to complete this course during the last week of my university holidays. That is, an 18 week course in only 1 week. This was going to happen with a few constraints\nI don\u0026rsquo;t need to complete the projects I will sit the final exam on the last Sunday of the week Motivation # In order to really motivate myself, I created a contract with my brother. The contract stated that I was to sit the final exam on Sunday the 26th of July and if I didn\u0026rsquo;t achieve a passing mark (50%), then I would donate a sum of money to charity. If I didn\u0026rsquo;t sit the exam at all then I would need to pay an even bigger sum.\nI don\u0026rsquo;t suggest this motivation technique for everything but it definitely has it\u0026rsquo;s place. For me, I knew that having this social pressure to learn would help me to learn much more over the week than I would have if I just tried to learn on my own. There are some sites that will do this for you automatically like Beeminder\nWhy did I decide to do this? # The first and most obvious reason of why I did this is that I have a high level of interest in learning, and I thought that learning about Operating Systems would be both useful and interesting. Interesing in the sense that I would have a better understanding of computers and useful in that when I begin my first job at ANZ next year, I\u0026rsquo;d love to get involved with some programming there. My idea is that having background like this will make it easier to learn new tools and to have a much more well rounded view of computer systems.\nAnother reason why I wanted to try this was to see how much I could learn in a week. I recently read the book \u0026ldquo;Ultralearning\u0026rdquo; by Scott Young. A few years ago, Scott undertook what he calls the MIT Challenge. He did an entire MIT 4 year degree both in one year, and using material available for free online.\nThis inspired me to also undertake something similar. I\u0026rsquo;ve got a massive stack of online courses that I want to do some day, but this presented a great opportunity to try one out and see how I\u0026rsquo;d go.\nWhat did I learn? # So now on to the actual fun stuff, what did I actually learn. Well to put it simply, the course and learning didn\u0026rsquo;t pan out like I had expected.\nI began the first few days by reading the relevant text books for the course and taking notes. This strategy was working really well in terms of learning, but not so well in terms of speed. In order to get through the course, I\u0026rsquo;d have to go through much quicker.\nAt this point I changed tack and began watching the lectures on 2x speed. This was a fairly decent strategy, however as I got closer to the end, I realised I was still going to fall short of watching all the lectures. 26 lectures at 1:30 each takes quite a while! (Surprisingly 3x speed didn\u0026rsquo;t really help me that much).\nSo in the end I realistically made my way about 50% of the way through the course.\nI successfully learnt about things like:\nKernel Abstraction Dual Mode Operation OS Scheduling techniques The fork() method Locks Process and Threads Virtualisation of memory These things are super interesting and I am very happy I spent the time learning them.\nWhat would I do differently? # In hindsight there are a few things that I would change.\nObviously the main problem that I encountered was that I wanted to get through the entire course in the week and I didn\u0026rsquo;t manage to do that. I don\u0026rsquo;t think that came down to the amount of work specifically, I think the mistakes were mostly down to a lack of awareness and planning.\nMy initial stages of reading the textbooks rather than watching lectures was a good initial strategy, but I also think the lectures provided adequate explanations and were more time efficient. If I had this challenge again, I\u0026rsquo;d stick to the lectures where possible and only use the textbook for further clarification when needed.\nI also think I didn\u0026rsquo;t plan for this as well as I could have. I underestimated the amount of work I would have to do and perhaps started a bit too confident in my learning abilities. One thing I would do next time would be to plan ahead more. Me spending 4-6 hours a days trying to learn meant I could only get through so much material in a day, when in reality, I had a lot to get through and need to spend more time if I was going to get through everything.\nShould you do this? # Overall I think this experience was worthwhile. While I didn\u0026rsquo;t complete the course like I had imagined, I still focussed more than I would have had it not been for the challenge. Sometimes when you have a week to do nothing, the week can quickly fade into a slump week. I am very happy that my week had purpose and I was able to gain something from it.\nIt\u0026rsquo;s unrealistic to expect a full time employee to commit a week of solid work to a course like this. I am really lucky to be in university and to have this free time. It\u0026rsquo;s much more likely that someone would undertake these courses in their spare time after work or on weekends. I think that while learning is good, it\u0026rsquo;s also important to have something to show for it. One thing I would recommend is to make sure you use the course to create something, be that a blog post like this or a project that you can create that will showcase your understanding of the topic. Without this, your new knowledge isn\u0026rsquo;t as useful.\nOnline learning is something that will become much more common in the future, and it\u0026rsquo;s amazing that we have such resources like MITOCW and these courses from Berkeley available for free. I\u0026rsquo;d highly recommend finding something that interests you and diving in. Also be careful though about window shopping for courses. Sometimes you can feel like you are learning when you are just finding lists of courses to try one day. It\u0026rsquo;s important to remember that the actual work comes in doing the course, not just looking at the outside or watching the intro videos.\nEven if it\u0026rsquo;s not this specific course that I took, I think using your free time to learn new things is a great idea. I am really happy about what I learnt during this week and no doubt will be sitting through some more online courses in the future.\n","date":"23 August 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/completing-cs162/","section":"Writing","summary":"Ever since I wrote my first program, I’ve been interested in computer systems and computer programming. One thing that I felt was missing from my computer knowledge was that deeper understanding of computers. At university I had only taken subjects relating to Algorithms, Data Structures and Problem Solving, but never things like Computer Architecture, Networking or Operating Systems.\n","title":"Challenge: CS162 in 1 Week","type":"posts"},{"content":"View my video about this topic below.\nNavigation # Why Typing Speed is Important {#imp} Increasing Your Speed {#inc} Alternate Keyboard Layouts {#layouts} Practice! {#prac} Summary {#S} Imagine being able to type twice as fast as you can now.\nImagine being able to type as fast as you can speak.\nOne day I was with a friend and we were doing some work together. I noticed that his typing speed was incredibly fast, so I asked him about how he managed to do it.\nThis article will show you what it takes to increase your typing speed, and the exact methods to do so.\nWhy Typing Speed is Important # Typing speed is something that almost never gets spoken about, yet it is so vital to our use of computers. Every day, many of us spend 8+ hours in front of a computer screen, with the vast majority of that time spent either reading or typing.\nWith this being the case, if you are at all interested in efficiency in front of computers, then increasing your typing speed will be very useful.\nBeing able to type\nFast with minimal mistakes without looking at your hands is something that will carry over through your entire career and working life. That is, until we no longer need to type at all (probably not far away).\nIncreasing Your Speed # Most people can type between 30-50 words per minute. Someone that types \u0026lsquo;fast\u0026rsquo; should really be anywhere from 80wpm+.\nThe first step in increasing your speed is to make sure that your hands and fingers are in the correct position.\nQWERTY Finger Layout See the above image. Each colour represents the keys that each finger should touch. For example your left pinky should only be touching the letters Q, A and Z. Your left middle finger should only be pressing E, D and C.\nBefore I improved at typing, I was using my right index finger to hit a wide variety of keys. This is grossly inefficient and means that you need to lift your hands up and move them every time you want to touch a new key.\nA very easy way to improve this delay is to make sure that all of your fingers partitipate in pressing the keys. Spreading the work out amongst all of your fingers means that your hands move less overall, and you will be able to type faster.\nAlternate Keyboard Layouts # Continuing on with the \u0026lsquo;moving hands less\u0026rsquo; theme, there exists a number of alternate keyboard layouts that aim to reduce this time.\nA sample of these can be seen here https://www.keybr.com/layouts\nQWERTY Frequency Here we can see the QWERTY layout. The size of the purple balls represents the frequency of each letter.\nAn optimal layout will mean that the hands must move a minimal distance. Typically this can be measured by the use of the \u0026lsquo;home row\u0026rsquo;. The home row is the middle row of the keyboard, that is, the row to the right of the caps lock button. Keys on this row require less movement, and so it makes sense to have the most common letters there.\nA major problem with QWERTY is that this is not the case. Letters like E, T and O, all require decent hand movement. This is not optimal from a speed perspective, and also the wear it can place on your hands over time. This problem stems from the fact that QWERTY was originally made for typewriters so that the keys wouldn\u0026rsquo;t get jammed. It has no relation to optimal typing speed.\nConsider the alternative layout that I am using, the Colemak layout.\nColemak Frequency On this keyboard, the most common letters are placed on the home row. This means that my fingers and hands need to move a minimal amount of distance to press each key.\nThere are some problems with these new layouts. First, they take a while to learn. It took me a few weeks to get decent with Colemak, to the point where I felt comfortable typing.\nThe second is that of keyboard shortcuts, in particular terminal use. Fortunately on Colemak, C and V are in the same position as QWERTY which makes copying and pasting very easy. However some other commands are much harder. For example the (h,j,k,l) navigation on vim is not in the same place so that would need to be modified. Other basic commands like cd and ls are easier on a QWERTY keyboard. This is something to keep in mind.\nPractice! # The final step in your typing speed journey is that of actual practice!\nI use 2 different sites to practice.\nThe first is https://www.keybr.com/\nThis site will get you much better at typing common phrases like \u0026rsquo;tion\u0026rsquo; etc. I found the statistics and ability to track my progress to be very rewarding.\nSome sites get you to type random letters with no clear reason why. I\u0026rsquo;ve seen sites that get you to type phrases like \u0026rsquo;luy\u0026rsquo; or \u0026lsquo;qwf\u0026rsquo;. There is almost no point in learning these, so Keybr does an excellent job at making this practial adjustment.\nThe second site is https://10fastfingers.com/\nI prefer Keybr, but 10 fastfingers has an important feature that I use. That is, the 10 minute test. You can create a custom test that lasts for 10 minutes, which will really help with your endurance. Another added benefit is that, on this site, you are typing actual words and not just shortened versions.\nSummary # To summarise, the process to getting better at typing is as follows.\nrealise your hand positions and make sure that your fingers are pressing the correct keys consider changing to a different layout to improve efficency Practice! I hope these tips helped. If you have any questions or addidions please email me at jamesfricker98@gmail.com\n","date":"5 July 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/increase-your-typing-speed/","section":"Writing","summary":"View my video about this topic below.\nNavigation # Why Typing Speed is Important {#imp} Increasing Your Speed {#inc} Alternate Keyboard Layouts {#layouts} Practice! {#prac} Summary {#S} Imagine being able to type twice as fast as you can now.\n","title":"Increase Your Typing Speed","type":"posts"},{"content":" Navigation # Introduction Lessons I Learnt Books I Read Things I Bought Introduction # What a month we have had in March. In Adelaide, March is comically called ‘Mad March’ as we have several festivals and car races in our city. This Mad March was ‘Mad’ for much more than that.\nThis month we have seen COVID19 take over large parts of Europe, the US and Asia. Measures have been put in place to protect people and slow the rate of transmission. These measures have effectively left most people locked inside their houses and will no doubt have very large impacts in the months to come.\nCOVID-19 is not only a lethal virus, it has also caused the markets to crash. The ASX200 has dropped from approx 7000 points at the end of January to below 5000 and approaching 4500 near the end of March. Aside from the virus itself, the crash has dumped even more stress onto those with large super accounts and savings as well as heaping large pressure onto small businesses.\nIn this testing time, I hope all of you can try to find some positives and continue to make the world a better place. Now that people are at home more, we can spend more time with family and more time just with ourselves. I encourage you to make the most of this time and use it to bring your families closer.\nLessons I Learnt # Dopamine Control # Alex Becker - This Rewired My Brain To Be Successful (Game Changer)\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLLTFy7LtRc\nI first watched this video by Alex Becker earlier this month, and saw the concept rehashed by other youtubers. This concept is that of dopamine control.\nDopamine is that chemical that your brain produces for motivation. When something feels good, dopamine will tell your body to keep doing it.\nThis is really good for us, but also not so good in a number of ways. For example when you use your phone, you likely get some notifications and interactions that make you feel really good. This, in turn, makes you want to use your phone even more. When you watch Netflix, you enjoy it and thus want to continue.\nThis principle was seen in the classic rat experiment. In this experiment the rat is provided with two levers, one for cocaine (as a massive dopamine hit) and the other as food. The rat will learn to press the cocaine levers so much that it eventually doesn’t eat and dies.\nThe power of your dopamine responses can literally overpower basic functions.\nThis is what is happening with your phone and other exciting apps or devices.\nSo how can we turn this around to use our dopamine for good?\nThe solution is to minimise the use of phones and exciting apps to the point where your actual work becomes the dopamine hit. When you get a dopamine spike from writing an article or reading a textbook, then you can do these things and find enjoyment in them.\nThis will make you insanely productive.\nSo what I have done, is to limit phone use until later in the day. That is, I don’t look at my phone until I’ve done heaps of work or absolutely necessary. Usually my phone won’t be turned on until after 3pm. This means I can get 6+ hours of work in before my dopamine gets hijacked.\nI have been using a ‘burner phone’ as my device to listen to audiobooks early in the mornings. This phone has nothing on it except the audiobook players like iBooks and audible. This means I can get some benefits of phone use, without being exposed to a big stream of emails and other push notifications.\nSo far I’ve found great success with this and I recommend you give it a shot.\nKey Takeaways # Use your phone and other high dopamine activities as little as possible Don’t forget to eat Creating the Shadow # Jordan Peterson - How to Develop your Shadow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBet_lgh4wc\nCreating the Shadow is something I’ve come across from Jordan Peterson who I believe compounded on the idea from Carl Jung.\nYour ‘shadow’ is essentially the dark side to your persona. It can do things you didn’t know you were capable of. Very bad things.\nYou see, all heroes are only heroes because they could cause massive destruction if they wished, but they don’t, so they gain the respect of people. For example, Superman could destroy most of Metropolis if he wished and yet he chooses to be good. It is his ability to be bad if he wanted to, that makes him good.\nIn the same way, you can cultivate your shadow. You can develop the mean and nasty part of yourself with the understanding that you must do that to defend yourself properly.\nKey Takeaways # Don’t be afraid of dark thoughts - they are necessary Become someone capable of evil (but be good) Books I Read # Hard Times Create Strong Men - Stefan Aarnio # This book was pretty insane. I can tell just by listening that this man is an absolute savage.\nThis book was about men in the world today, and how most of them are pussies. Men today can no longer stand up for what they believe in, they give up too easily and can’t take feedback.\nStefan argues this cycle of good times create weak men which create hard times which create strong men. I also believe this to be true.\nHe goes on the say that the US is currently in a big state of decline and it wouldn’t be surprising to him if it crashed and burned in the next 50 years. I also agree with him.\nReading this book, Stefan became a bit of an inspiration to me. To do hard things, become a strong man and take control of your life. I was amazed when he says that he undertook 18 day fasts in a secluded area where he wrote this entire book plus more. This is something I hadn’t considered before, and one day I will try it (maybe not for that long though).\nKey Takeaways # Find ways to be a strong man is today\u0026rsquo;s world Watch for ways that the Western World is falling The Dip - Seth Godin # This book is about that time when you are learning something that becomes hard, and you aren’t sure if you should continue. These things that are required to take your career and life to the next level, but are really difficult. This is called ‘The Dip’.\nSeth says that the dip can be really hard to get through, but is well worth it. In some cases the dip can be very difficult which is why Seth goes on to say that when picking projects you should only begin those things that you can become the best in the world at. Seth goes on to share essentially the 80/20 rule, where people at the top get exponentially more than those in the middle.\nKey takeaways # Hard things all have a dip - something you must get over Only do things you can be the best in the world at The Winner Effect - Ian Robertson # The winner effect is one of those books that has such a cool idea but is executed somewhat poorly. I really would’ve got more out of the book if I didn’t get bored of it through the middle and end.\nThe winner effect is all about winning and how that impacts you. In sports, typically the home team wins. Robertson argues that this is because they have the home crowd, which raises their testosterone more than the opponents.\nPeople who are winning are more likely to win again. In boxing, the term ‘Tomato Can’ is given to a fighter that is sent into the ring to give his opponent an easy win. This easy win will cause the better fighter to gain some momentum and make his next win more likely. This was seen with Mike Tyson, who had a run of losses and was set up against a Tomato Can. This easy win then sent Typson on to winning his next few fights.\nThe same thing applies in social situations. When you can’t seem to get a word into a conversation and you feel more nervous than usual, it’s likely that your winner effect is down. To combat this, you should seek to get involved in small easy ways, which will boost your winner effect and allow you to be more involved later.\nKey Takeaways # Winners keep winning - create winning situations in your life Keep testosterone high to increase chances of winning The Magic Of Thinking Big - David Schwarz # “Got a good idea? Then do something about it.” - D Schwarz\nThis book is all about believing in yourself and what you are capable of. When people offer you opportunities, it is easy to say no and continue your normal way of life. What you need to realise is that there are opportunities all around you, and when you get offered something, to take it with both hands. Believe in what you can do, and good things will follow. I see a lot of parallels in this book with ‘Mindset’ - Carol Dweck and ‘Think and Grow Rich’ - Napoleon Hill. Believing you can do something is always the first step to actually getting it.\nKey Takeaways # Believe in yourself Take opportunities when they are presented Never Eat Alone - Keith Ferrazi # This book is all about connections. How to make them and how to use them to get what you want, without being sleazy. Keith is a master networker, and has had instances of networking through his entire life. ‘It’s not what you know but who you know’ is a massive theme throughout this book, it is clear through Keiths life that many opportunities are not available to people simply because they don’t have the right connections. Therefore, making and sustaining these connections is extremely important if you’d like to get what you want.\nKey Takeaways # Stay in touch with as many people as possible Make sure to periodically check in with those people you know but don’t see often Create container events to meet more people Work and personal life doesn’t need to be seperated Things I Bought # Focus Mate # I recently bought the ‘turbo’ version of FocusMate. This is a website that allows you to work with others through a video call. This premium version allows you to book unlimited time slots.\nThis site has been a game-changer for me. Since COVID19 has me working at home rather than university, having someone to work with is amazing.\nThe best part about the call is that at the beginning of each chat, you each outline what it is you aim to get done in the next 50 minutes. You then do what you need to do, and at the end you come back together to review what you got done.\nEven thinking about what you would like to do is something that gets easily lost, and has allowed me to get so much more work done than had I been doing it myself with no help.\nHighly recommended.\n","date":"31 March 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/march-newsletter/","section":"Writing","summary":"Navigation # Introduction Lessons I Learnt Books I Read Things I Bought Introduction # What a month we have had in March. In Adelaide, March is comically called ‘Mad March’ as we have several festivals and car races in our city. This Mad March was ‘Mad’ for much more than that.\n","title":"March Newsletter","type":"posts"},{"content":" Navigation # Meetings Focussed Work Data Quality Data Process My Work Summary At the start of this year, I began my first internship as a Data Scientist. I was offered this role by the RAA, one of South Australia\u0026rsquo;s largest companies.\nThe RAA does many things, the main thing it is known for in South Australia is it\u0026rsquo;s road service program, where the RAA vans will come out to help you if you and your car run into a tricky situation. The RAA also offers a number of home insurance options, and now they are branching into travel planning and agency services.\nThe newly reformed travel section of the RAA was where much of my focus was during my weeks in the business.\nThe Interns (I\u0026rsquo;m on the right) What Did I Learn? # My supervisor asked me on my final day, how I would summarise my internship, and I honestly struggled to find an answer. I learnt a LOT, and most of this wasn\u0026rsquo;t to do with data.\nMeetings # As part of any business, people attend lots of meetings. My experience was no different. I attended and organised many meetings, and there were many aspects to this process that I will take into meetings in the future.\nMeetings can easily turn into a big waste of time, so setting a clear direction for the meeting beforehand is very important. Tracking the meeting using minutes, and setting actions for people during and after the meeting is also a great way to hold people accountable, and to ensure the project gets finished on time.\nThis process can be easily applied to my university meetings, to make them more efficient. One really important part for me, is that people who are more prone to not getting stuff done, can be held accountable.\nThis meeting process doesn\u0026rsquo;t have to happen only during meetings with other people either. I feel that this process of setting an intention and accountability can be easily transferred to our own lives. Setting an intention for what you want to do and when you want to do it by, with some form of accountability, is exactly how good habits and progress are made.\nFocussed Work # After reading books like Deep Work and Hyperfocus, I have a real strong connected with highly-focussed work. I try my best to integrate this style of work into my university study as I feel that I can get so much more done when I am in the zone.\nOne thing that I noticed while working is that this level of concentration seems to be very rarely achieved by people. This may have been RAA specific due to their open place and hot-desking situation, but I feel that other companies would also run into this problem. Constant meetings and coffee runs have such a big impact on how much work someone can do in a certain time frame, and this absolutely has an impact on overall productivity.\nI understand it can be difficult to fit these times for deep work into a work day, but I also feel like businesses are missing out on a huge productivity boost by not making this more of a focus. For example, the way I structure my uni day is to arrive at 8am, to do focussed work until around 12-1, and then relax, watch lectures and begin to wind down. Businesses could easily take a similar approach by setting loose rules like \u0026rsquo;no meetings before 12pm\u0026rsquo; or similar. This allows people to really get the most out of their day by having set times for focussed productivity.\nThere may be some limitations to this approach as it\u0026rsquo;s really only knowledge workers that gain from this. The HR department for example doesn\u0026rsquo;t have nearly as much use for deep work time as the Data and Analytics area for example.\nme practicing for our group presentation on Reward and Recognition software Data Quality # Another problem that I hadn\u0026rsquo;t really been exposed to before this internship was that of Data Quality. If someone like me wants to complete some analysis on some data, it is super important that the data is correct, and there is as much of it as possible.\nThe travel data that we were using had a number of errors throughout, these errors meant less data could be used, and the data that was being used may still have some mistakes. These were mainly due to consultants inputting the data, having free text fields to put their information in.\nFree text is a Big No No!\nFree text makes it a nightmare to match data, as people often have different styles of inputting. Data Quality issues generally stem from the input source, so maximising the quality of the data really starts from the collection process.\nData Process # The full data process is something that I had heard about but didn\u0026rsquo;t really have a full grasp of. The data process involves the full process of collection, storing and using the data.\nOne big area is that of data engineering. Collecting data and placing it in a database in such a way that it is easy to access for people like me is a very important part of a business. SQL in particular is something that I hadn\u0026rsquo;t really been exposed to at all before, and now I realise how much of a vital role it plays in business, particularly in one of the size of the RAA. This is definitely an area I would love to learn more about.\nMy Work # So now we\u0026rsquo;ve gone through all the things that I\u0026rsquo;ve learnt, it\u0026rsquo;s time to get into what I actually did.\nI was tasked with creating a model to predict a members next travel destination. I did this using software called \u0026lsquo;Knime\u0026rsquo;. It makes the entire data science process very easy to understand for those with no programming background. It\u0026rsquo;s really popular at the RAA, so that\u0026rsquo;s what I created my model in.\na Knime example I was going to use machine learning to create my prediction, so I needed to find all the variables I thought would have some correlations to someones travel destination, and use those in my model.\nI\u0026rsquo;m not sure how much detail I can go into so I won\u0026rsquo;t give out what data and columns I used. In the end though, I created a model to predict a members next travel destination with 70% accuracy. Not too bad.\nSome limitations I had were that there weren\u0026rsquo;t many people in the database, and that each person only had a limited number of trips. These together made it hard to predict exact destinations, so I ended up predicting their travel region instead.\nI used a Gradient Boosting model, which was really cool. This led me down the path of learning about XGBoost, and how gradient boosting algorithms actually work.\nSummary # Overall, I learnt heaps about businesses, how they operate, and the role that data plays. I learnt heaps about what roles a data scientist can do, and this has me really excited for the future.\nThanks for reading! If you\u0026rsquo;d like to contact me please hit me up on Linkedin, or email me at jamesfricker98@gmail.com\n","date":"22 February 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/my-first-data-science-internship/","section":"Writing","summary":"Navigation # Meetings Focussed Work Data Quality Data Process My Work Summary At the start of this year, I began my first internship as a Data Scientist. I was offered this role by the RAA, one of South Australia’s largest companies.\n","title":"My First Data Science Internship","type":"posts"},{"content":"I created a Sudoku Solver. You can view the app here.\nThere are a few important aspects of the program I thought it would be useful to talk about. These are the general process of solving a board, as well as the process of creating a board to be solved.\nSolving a Sudoku # The method that I used in this case is the backtracking method.\nSudoku is a very good game to demonstrate this algorithm. When you play sudoku, you often run into the situation where a cell may contain more than one possible value. This is a problem, and is solved by backtracking. In this situation, the algorithm will place one of the possibilities in the cell, and continue to solve the sudoku. When it reaches a contradictory position, it will walk back to one of these situations with multiple possibilities, choose the next possibility and continue.\nThis process repeats until all the cells of the sudoku are filled.\nFurther reading: https://www.101computing.net/backtracking-algorithm-sudoku-solver/\nCreating a Sudoku Problem # Another problem I came across is that of creating a sudoku to be solved. I found that there are many different ways to do this, but I have chosen a fairly simple method.\nSwitching rows and columns will not affect the ability to find a solution of the sudoku. However this only occurs if you switch rows and columns in each set of 3, for example switching rows 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9. These rows and columns can be randomly switched to generate a problem.\nFirst a sudoku is solved, in my case I just solve an empty sudoku. Next the rows and columns in each group of 3 are switched randomly to create a new solution. The final step is to pick n different numbers to be displayed as the problem. This creates a valid and likely unique starting sudoku for the person to solve.\nOther methods can include testing for a unique board, and taking the solution where there is only one possible solution, rather than many. This method can create situations where if one number was taken from the board, the sudoku would be unsolvable.\nI found this link to be very helpful: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6924216/how-to-generate-sudoku-boards-with-unique-solutions/7280517\nThere are many different possibilities with sudoku! I hope you learned something from my post.\n","date":"16 February 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/sudoku-solver/","section":"Writing","summary":"I created a Sudoku Solver. You can view the app here.\nThere are a few important aspects of the program I thought it would be useful to talk about. These are the general process of solving a board, as well as the process of creating a board to be solved.\n","title":"Sudoku Solver","type":"posts"},{"content":" YouTube | 2019- # I post YouTube videos occasionally.\nRBA Rate Watch | 2026- # See the market-implied forecast and interest rate probabilities for upcoming RBA meetings.\nTable Topics Simulator | 2024 # Simulate a Toastmasters Table Topics Experience.\nGraduate Theory | 2021-2022 # Podcast to discover common early career advice and it\u0026rsquo;s applications\nChess AI | 2020 # The AI will play chess against the player. The game can be setup to watch the computer play against itself.\nSudoku Solver | 2020 # The site will generate and solve Sudoku puzzles using the backtracking method.\nModelling Wine Data with XGBoost in R - Report | 2020 # This report was completed in Semester 1, 2020 as part of \u0026lsquo;Statistical Modelling III\u0026rsquo; at the UofA. Allowed a maximum of 8 pages, the report details the XGBoost model and how I used it to model wine data. The aim was to produce a model that could predict wine quality the best. I produced one of the best models in the class.\nCryptanalysis of the Vigenere Cipher - Report | 2019 # The report explains the process of decrypting a Vigenere Cipher, submitted as a University subject called \u0026lsquo;Cryptography III\u0026rsquo; in Semester 2, 2019. The subject taught about different cryptographic techniques and how they are used today.\n","date":"2 February 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/projects/","section":"James Fricker","summary":"YouTube | 2019- # I post YouTube videos occasionally.\nRBA Rate Watch | 2026- # See the market-implied forecast and interest rate probabilities for upcoming RBA meetings.\n","title":"Projects","type":"page"},{"content":"I’m James Fricker, a quantitative developer and software engineer based in Sydney.\nI work at the intersection of markets, data and systems. I’ve worked across quantitative trading, data engineering, machine learning and software engineering—building everything from real-time trading tools to analytics for cancer genomics.\nI’m particularly interested in market microstructure, distributed systems, machine learning and understanding how complicated technology works beneath the abstractions. Most of the writing and projects on this site come from trying to understand something properly by building it myself.\nEarlier in my career, I worked at ANZ and studied Mathematics and Finance at the University of Adelaide. I also created Graduate Theory, a podcast about careers and the transition from university into work.\nOutside work, I run, read, play guitar and support Sheffield United and Adelaide United.\nYou can find me on LinkedIn or email me at jamesfricker98@gmail.com.\nFollow my work # I occasionally write about markets, software, machine learning and whatever I am currently trying to understand.\nSubscribe to receive new posts by email.\nSubscribeBuilt with ConvertKit ","date":"2 February 2020","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/about/","section":"James Fricker","summary":"I’m James Fricker, a quantitative developer and software engineer based in Sydney.\nI work at the intersection of markets, data and systems. I’ve worked across quantitative trading, data engineering, machine learning and software engineering—building everything from real-time trading tools to analytics for cancer genomics.\n","title":"About","type":"page"},{"content":"View my Chess AI in action here\nChess is one of the most popular games on the planet. Many people have tried to create a chess AI, that can play chess at a high level. The best attempt so far was AlphaZero by Google. The software managed to learn how to play chess in a number of hours, and defeat some of the best computer players such as Stockfish.\nDuring my free time these university holidays, I thought it would be a great idea to create my own chess AI. While I certainly wouldn’t be able to reach the levels of Google and Stockfish in my short time available, it seemed like a decent challenge.\nCreating a chess AI in the conventional manner essentially means creating a list of all possible moves, and choosing the best move for the player. This is basically what chess algorithms tend to do, but they also have many different tricks that are applied to make this process much more efficient. Several of these were applied to my algorithm such as, the evaluation function, min-max and alpha-beta pruning.\nEvaluation Function # The evaluation function is how the program views the board. For my program I used a very simple method for this calculation. The program finds all pieces on the board, and gives them a certain value, based on their importance. For example, a Queen is worth 1000 points while a Pawn is only worth 100. The sum of all of the current players pieces, minus those of the opponent create a value for the board. The goal of the program is to increase the value of the board by taking opponents pieces and keeping its own pieces alive.\nMin-Max Algorithm # When maximising the value of the board, it’s important that the best option is taken for the long term. For example there is no point taking a Pawn with your Queen, only to lose your Queen immediately after. Therefore the min-max algorithm is used. This algorithm looks at possible futures of the board, and finds the board that maximises the worst possible board. This helps to prevent the program from making bad decisions.\nAlpha-Beta Pruning # Alpha-Beta pruning is a very useful tool, it means that there are many branches of the search tree that do not need to be looked at. For example, if the min-max of one part of the tree is greater than the maximum of another part, then there is no way that the new part of the tree is better than the min-max has already found. This means that this part of the tree does not need to be searched, and can be skipped.\nSummary # There are many ways to improve this algorithm. All of these improvements result in the algorithm being able to search further into the tree of possible moves. Other techniques to be used include:\nA hash table for your evaluations Move ordering. Iterative deepening Quiescence search There are even ways to include machine learning and neural networks into the algorithm.\nThese parts may be included in my chess game, feel free to check back to see if I have made any progress!\nThe sources below were a very big help in learning about this topic:\nBuilding a Simple Chess AI\nhttps://www.freecodecamp.org/news/simple-chess-ai-step-by-step-1d55a9266977/\nhttps://www.chessprogramming.org/\n","date":"18 December 2019","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/creating-a-chess-ai/","section":"Writing","summary":"View my Chess AI in action here\nChess is one of the most popular games on the planet. Many people have tried to create a chess AI, that can play chess at a high level. The best attempt so far was AlphaZero by Google. The software managed to learn how to play chess in a number of hours, and defeat some of the best computer players such as Stockfish.\n","title":"Creating a Chess AI","type":"posts"},{"content":"This page contains a project I worked on as part of a University assignment. The project was for a subject called “Portfolio Theory and Management” and the aim was to provide a fund with a diverse portfolio, earning a target of 5.5% real return per annum. The fund would also like to make real donations of 5% per annum.\nThe lecturer loved that I used python to code up more portfolio samples, it\u0026rsquo;s definitely not a typical thing to do!\nWe created a Risk Parity portfolio, as well as a portfolio created by the solver function in excel. My part of the group assignment was to stress test both portfolios.\nA risk parity portfolio is created by each asset having a weight such that it\u0026rsquo;s risk is equal to all other assets. That is, each asset contributes an equal amount of risk to the portfolio.\nIn my extension of this, I wrote some code to analyse different spend rules and rebalancing methods.\nThe portfolio’s consisted of 5 different asset types. I created a Monte Carlo simulation for each of these, and simulated the portfolio, using the asset weights calculated from both the Risk Parity and Solver Portfolios.\nThe following charts show the difference between Range and Quarterly rebalancing on spend completion rates. The range for a rebalance was 10%. This means that when an asset has weight in a portfolio above or below 10% of its initial weighting, a rebalance occurs, re-weighting all the assets. For example, if equities make up 30% of the portfolio initially, when the equities grow in such a way as to make up 40% of the portfolio, a rebalance would occur. This range rebalancing is different to quarterly rebalancing. In quarterly rebalancing, the portfolio is rebalanced at the end of every quarter.\nThe spending rule, as stated earlier, is that the fund wants to spend 5% per year, but the key part is they can only do so if the portfolio value is above the initial value. This enables the fund to recuperate losses much better and allows them to spend more in the future.\nAs part of my simulations, I created some charts to show some useful information\nSolver Portfolio: Spend Completion Rates using Range Rebalancing Solver Portfolio: Spend Completion Rates using Quarterly Rebalancing As you can see from these figures, the range rebalanced portfolio allows much more consistent levels of spending.\nSpending Rates for Range Rebalanced Portfolio Spending Rates for Quarterly Rebalanced Portfolio The first figure title should be “Range Rebalanced Spends”. The same situation again unfolds, that the range rebalancing portfolio allows a spending completion rate much higher than the quarterly rebalanced portfolio.\nThe rate is not 100% as some portfolios drop below the initial real value of the portfolio and hence can’t complete the spend.\nAnother aspect to analyse in the rebalancing rates. This is important to compare the two portfolio’s and see how often any asset goes outside the allowed range.\nAs can be seen in these images, the rebalancing is roughly the same per year, at around 0.25-0.3 rebalances per year. Tighter ranges would mean more rebalances per year.\nFurther analysis could include possible modifications to the spend rule to maximise spend completion rates, and optimal rebalancing ranges to maximise portfolio value.\nIf you\u0026rsquo;d like to read my code, please email me at jamesfricker98@gmail.com.\n","date":"12 October 2019","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/portfolio-rebalancing-and-spend-rule-analysis/","section":"Writing","summary":"This page contains a project I worked on as part of a University assignment. The project was for a subject called “Portfolio Theory and Management” and the aim was to provide a fund with a diverse portfolio, earning a target of 5.5% real return per annum. The fund would also like to make real donations of 5% per annum.\n","title":"Portfolio Rebalancing and Spend Rule Analysis","type":"posts"},{"content":" Advanced Systems Questions # 1. Operating Systems # Process vs. Thread Model [Easy]\nWhen and why would you choose a process-based architecture over a thread-based one? Discuss overhead considerations, memory usage, and concurrency trade-offs.\nVirtual Memory Internals [Easy]\nExplain how modern operating systems implement virtual memory and the role of paging. How do page tables, TLBs, and multi-level paging work together to manage memory efficiently?\nKernel vs. User Space [Easy]\nDescribe how system calls transition from user space to kernel space. What happens at each step in the journey of a typical read or write system call?\nScheduling Algorithms [Medium]\nIn a system that requires both real-time responsiveness and high throughput, how would you design a scheduler? Discuss trade-offs and real-time constraints such as latency vs. throughput vs. fairness.\nSynchronization \u0026amp; Concurrency [Medium]\nCompare and contrast different synchronization primitives (mutexes, semaphores, spinlocks, lock-free data structures). When would you use each and why?\nFilesystem Design [Medium]\nHow do journaling filesystems (e.g., ext4, XFS) ensure data consistency and integrity after crashes? What are the trade-offs between journaling vs. copy-on-write filesystems like ZFS or Btrfs?\nResource Isolation [Medium]\nHow does a hypervisor-based virtualization differ from container-based isolation (e.g., cgroups, namespaces in Linux)? Discuss performance and security implications.\nDeadlock Conditions and Avoidance [Medium]\nOutline the four conditions for deadlock and how operating systems might detect or prevent them. Provide concrete examples of algorithms or techniques used to mitigate deadlocks.\nMicrokernels vs. Monolithic Kernels [Medium]\nDiscuss the architectural differences between microkernel and monolithic kernel designs. How do factors like security, modularity, performance, and complexity play into these two approaches?\nInterrupt Handling \u0026amp; Context Switching [Medium]\nWhat are interrupts, and how does an operating system handle them at the hardware and software levels? Explain how context switching works and the role of the Interrupt Service Routine (ISR).\nDriver Development \u0026amp; Kernel Modules [Medium]\nOutline the steps to create and load a kernel module. What are common pitfalls when writing device drivers, and how can they be mitigated?\nMemory-Mapped I/O \u0026amp; DMA [Medium]\nWhat is memory-mapped I/O, and how does it differ from port-based I/O? Explain how Direct Memory Access (DMA) improves performance and the OS’s role in configuring DMA operations.\nPower Management \u0026amp; CPU Frequency Scaling [Medium]\nHow do operating systems manage power consumption across CPUs and devices (e.g., ACPI states, DVFS)? What are the main trade-offs between power saving and performance?\nNUMA Architectures [Hard]\nIn a Non-Uniform Memory Access (NUMA) system, how does memory placement affect performance? What strategies exist in operating systems for optimizing thread and memory placement?\nOS Debugging \u0026amp; Profiling [Hard]\nYou have a kernel module that occasionally locks up the system under heavy load. How would you go about debugging and profiling to pinpoint the root cause?\nI/O Scheduling \u0026amp; Buffer Management [Hard]\nHow do modern operating systems schedule I/O requests to improve throughput and latency (e.g., CFQ, BFQ, or Deadline schedulers)? What role does buffer management play in performance?\nHigh-Performance Networking Stack [Hard]\nHow do operating systems optimize network throughput and reduce latency (e.g., zero-copy networking, NIC offloading)? Describe the trade-offs in designing a high-performance networking stack.\nSystem Security \u0026amp; Secure Boot [Hard]\nWhat is secure boot, and how does it protect the integrity of the OS from early-stage attacks? Discuss the role of trusted platform modules (TPMs) and how they enforce security guarantees.\nOS-Assisted Debugging \u0026amp; Tracing Tools [Hard]\nDiscuss kernel-level tracing and diagnostic tools (e.g., ftrace, perf, eBPF). How can these be used for deep inspection of scheduling, memory usage, and system calls?\nReal-Time OS \u0026amp; Deterministic Scheduling [Hard]\nWhat distinguishes a real-time operating system (RTOS) from a general-purpose OS? Discuss hard vs. soft real-time constraints, latency guarantees, and typical scheduling strategies in RTOS environments.\n2. Languages and Systems Programming # Type Systems \u0026amp; Type Checking [Easy]\nHow do static and dynamic type systems differ in terms of safety guarantees and developer workflow?\nWhich kinds of errors can be caught at compile time vs. runtime, and how do languages decide what to enforce?\nInterpreter vs. Compiler Internals [Easy]\nCompare the high-level design of a simple bytecode-based interpreter with a JIT-optimizing compiler.\nHow do their execution pipelines and performance characteristics differ?\nMemory Safety [Easy]\nWhat language features or runtime checks enforce memory safety in languages like Rust, Swift, or Java?\nHow do borrow checkers or runtime checks prevent common memory errors?\nIntermediate Representations (IR) [Medium]\nExplain why compilers often translate source code to an IR (e.g., LLVM IR).\nWhat are some examples of high-level optimizations that become easier once you have an IR?\nRuntime Reflection [Medium]\nDiscuss how languages implement reflection at runtime (e.g., method lookups, dynamic invocation).\nHow might such features impact performance and security?\nVirtual Machine Architecture [Medium]\nWhat are the roles of stack-based vs. register-based VMs?\nCompare their instruction sets, performance trade-offs, and typical use cases.\nCode Generation \u0026amp; Optimization [Medium]\nDescribe common compiler optimizations (e.g., loop unrolling, inlining, constant folding).\nHow do these optimizations translate into real performance gains, and when can they backfire?\nEmbedding \u0026amp; Extending [Medium]\nIn languages that allow embedding (e.g., Python, Lua), how do you integrate C/C++ to extend functionality or optimize performance?\nWhat pitfalls can arise with ref-counting, memory, or ownership?\nPolymorphism \u0026amp; Generics Implementation [Medium]\nHow do languages implement generic types or polymorphic functions under the hood (e.g., type erasure vs. reification)?\nWhat trade-offs arise in terms of code bloat, performance, and runtime checks?\nLinkers \u0026amp; Loaders [Medium]\nHow do linkers resolve symbols from multiple object files or libraries?\nWhat role do dynamic loaders play at runtime, and why is symbol resolution crucial for shared library compatibility?\nCross-Compiling \u0026amp; Multi-Architecture Builds [Medium]\nWhat considerations must be made when targeting multiple architectures (e.g., x86, ARM)?\nHow do you handle endianness, word size, and platform-specific ABIs during cross-compilation?\nSelf-Hosting Compilers [Medium]\nWhat does it mean for a compiler to be \u0026ldquo;self-hosting\u0026rdquo;?\nDiscuss the benefits, challenges, and bootstrapping process of a language compiler that is written in the same language it compiles.\nGC Algorithms [Hard]\nContrast mark-and-sweep, stop-the-world generational, and concurrent garbage collection approaches.\nWhat are the key trade-offs in throughput vs. pause times?\nException Handling in Low-Level Systems [Hard]\nHow do low-level languages (e.g., C++) implement exceptions under the hood (e.g., table-based vs. setjmp/longjmp)?\nWhat are the implications for performance and memory?\nABI Compatibility [Hard]\nExplain how Application Binary Interfaces (ABIs) affect interoperability between different languages or compiler versions.\nIn what scenarios does ABI compatibility become critical?\nLanguage Concurrency Approaches [Hard]\nCompare different language-level concurrency paradigms (e.g., Erlang’s actor model vs. Go’s goroutines vs. shared-memory threads).\nWhat runtime support is needed to manage scheduling, synchronization, and message passing effectively?\nPartial Evaluation \u0026amp; Dynamic Specialization [Hard]\nWhat is partial evaluation, and how does it optimize runtime performance by precomputing known parameters?\nHow might a JIT compiler dynamically specialize code based on usage patterns?\nMulti-language Interoperability \u0026amp; FFI [Hard]\nHow do languages communicate through Foreign Function Interfaces (FFIs)?\nWhat are the biggest challenges for memory management, exception handling, and data type conversion when bridging multiple language runtimes?\nCode Security \u0026amp; Sandboxing [Hard]\nHow can runtimes or VMs sandbox user code to prevent malicious or accidental breaches (e.g., capability-based security, WASM sandbox)?\nDiscuss the overhead and complexity of isolating code in a secure execution environment.\nJust-In-Time (JIT) vs. Ahead-of-Time (AOT) Compilation [Hard]\nHow do JIT and AOT strategies differ in terms of startup time, runtime performance, and optimization capabilities?\nWhat design decisions do language authors need to make when choosing between or blending these approaches?\n3. Computer Systems # Endianness \u0026amp; Data Encoding [Easy]\nHow does endianness impact cross-platform data exchange? Provide examples of data-structure pitfalls when transferring binary data between systems of different endianness.\nFloating-Point Representation [Easy]\nDetail how IEEE 754 floating-point numbers are encoded. What pitfalls can arise from floating-point precision in high-performance or financial applications?\nException vs. Interrupt [Easy]\nContrast synchronous exceptions (e.g., divide-by-zero, page fault) with asynchronous interrupts (hardware interrupts, timer interrupts). How does the CPU handle and prioritize them?\nAssembler \u0026amp; Machine Code [Easy]\nWhat is the relationship between assembly language and the machine instructions actually executed by the CPU?\nExplain how assembly instructions map to opcodes, registers, and addressing modes.\nCPU Microarchitecture vs. Instruction Set Architecture [Easy]\nHow does a CPU’s microarchitecture differ from its ISA (Instruction Set Architecture)?\nDiscuss why multiple microarchitectures can implement the same ISA but achieve different performance.\nMemory Hierarchy [Medium]\nHow does each level of the memory hierarchy (registers, L1–L3 cache, main memory, disk) affect performance?\nDescribe how caching policies (e.g., write-through vs. write-back) influence design.\nPipelining \u0026amp; Superscalar [Medium]\nExplain how modern CPUs use pipelining and superscalar execution to increase instruction throughput.\nWhat is out-of-order execution and why is it beneficial?\nAtomic Operations [Medium]\nDescribe how atomic read-modify-write instructions are implemented in hardware.\nHow do they support higher-level synchronization primitives?\nContext Switch Mechanics [Medium]\nWhat happens during a context switch between processes or threads?\nDescribe how CPU registers, program counters, and stack pointers are handled at the OS level.\nMemory Protection [Medium]\nHow do segmentation and paging protect memory access in a modern OS?\nWhat is the difference between privilege levels, and how do ring transitions occur?\nSpeculative Execution [Medium]\nHow does speculative execution work, and what are potential security implications (e.g., Spectre, Meltdown)?\nWhat can be done at the hardware or software level to mitigate these risks?\nBranch Prediction [Medium]\nHow do CPUs predict the direction of conditional branches to avoid pipeline stalls?\nDiscuss common branch prediction algorithms and their impact on performance.\nSimultaneous Multithreading (Hyper-Threading) [Medium]\nWhat is simultaneous multithreading, and how does it differ from simple single-thread-per-core designs?\nIn which scenarios does SMT help or hurt overall performance?\nBus Architectures [Hard]\nHow do internal buses (e.g., front-side bus, point-to-point interconnects) and external buses (e.g., PCIe) transfer data between CPU, memory, and peripherals?\nDiscuss latency, bandwidth, and scalability considerations in modern bus architectures.\nCache Coherency Protocols [Hard]\nIn a multi-core system, how do protocols like MESI or MOESI ensure data consistency across caches?\nDiscuss potential performance bottlenecks with false sharing.\nNUMA \u0026amp; HPC [Hard]\nWhat is Non-Uniform Memory Access, and how does it impact performance on large multi-CPU systems?\nDiscuss common strategies for optimizing memory locality in high-performance computing (HPC).\nHardware Virtualization Extensions [Hard]\nHow do modern CPUs (e.g., Intel VT-x, AMD-V) support virtualization at the hardware level?\nWhat mechanisms exist to trap and virtualize privileged instructions efficiently?\nReal-Time \u0026amp; Deterministic Execution [Hard]\nIn what ways do real-time or safety-critical systems require deterministic execution?\nHow do specialized scheduling, cache partitioning, or hardware isolation help meet real-time constraints?\nCPU Security Features (SGX, TEE) [Hard]\nHow do hardware-backed security features like Intel SGX or Arm TrustZone provide isolated execution environments?\nDescribe the threat models these technologies aim to address and the overhead they introduce.\nHPC \u0026amp; Parallel Computing [Hard]\nHow are multi-CPU or multi-GPU systems orchestrated in large-scale parallel computing (e.g., supercomputers, clusters)?\nDiscuss communication models (e.g., MPI, shared memory) and key hardware factors for scaling performance.\n4. Databases # ACID vs. BASE [Easy]\nContrast ACID properties (Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, Durability) with the more relaxed BASE approach (Basically Available, Soft state, Eventually consistent). Where does each fit best?\nNoSQL vs. RDBMS [Easy]\nCompare and contrast NoSQL systems (e.g., document stores, key-value stores, column-oriented) with traditional RDBMS solutions. Under what workloads would each be preferable?\nIndex Structures [Easy]\nDiscuss the design of common indexing structures (B-Trees, B+Trees, Hash indexes). In what scenarios would you choose each, and what are their space/time trade-offs?\nData Modeling \u0026amp; Schema Design [Easy]\nHow do you decide between normalized and denormalized schemas?\nWhat factors drive schema evolution in relational vs. NoSQL databases?\nOLTP vs. OLAP [Easy]\nWhat are the primary differences between Online Transaction Processing (OLTP) and Online Analytical Processing (OLAP)?\nHow do their workloads, data sizes, and performance goals compare?\nOver-Indexing vs. Under-Indexing [Easy]\nWhy can too many indexes hurt performance (especially on write-heavy workloads), and why is having too few indexes just as problematic for read performance?\nHow do you strike a balance?\nIsolation Levels [Medium]\nExplain the differences between READ UNCOMMITTED, READ COMMITTED, REPEATABLE READ, and SERIALIZABLE. What anomalies can occur under each isolation level?\nMVCC (Multi-Version Concurrency Control) [Medium]\nHow does MVCC allow readers and writers to proceed concurrently? What complexities arise in managing older snapshot versions of data?\nSharding and Partitioning [Medium]\nHow do you decide on the sharding strategy (range-based, hash-based, etc.)? Discuss the trade-offs of each approach and how rebalancing can be handled.\nReplication \u0026amp; Consistency [Medium]\nDescribe how databases handle replication (synchronous vs. asynchronous). What challenges arise in multi-master replication, and how can conflicts be resolved?\nTransaction Logging \u0026amp; Recovery [Medium]\nHow do Write-Ahead Logging (WAL) and checkpointing mechanisms ensure durability? Provide an example of how a database recovers after an unexpected crash.\nQuery Execution Plans [Medium]\nHow does a database generate and optimize query execution plans? Outline the role of the optimizer and how it leverages statistics, heuristics, or cost-based approaches.\nPerformance Profiling [Medium]\nYou have a query that runs significantly slower under load. Which database metrics and profiling tools would you use to diagnose the bottleneck (I/O, locks, CPU, memory, etc.)?\nCAP Theorem [Hard]\nWhat does the CAP Theorem state regarding Consistency, Availability, and Partition tolerance?\nHow do various databases choose their trade-offs?\nConnection Pooling \u0026amp; Concurrency [Hard]\nHow do connection pools help manage concurrent database requests?\nWhat happens if the pool is exhausted, and how can timeouts or queueing strategies mitigate this?\nLSM-Tree-based Indexing [Hard]\nWhy do some databases use Log-Structured Merge (LSM) Trees instead of traditional B-Trees?\nWhat are the read vs. write performance characteristics of an LSM-based system?\nColumnar Storage \u0026amp; Compression [Hard]\nHow do column-oriented databases organize data differently from row-oriented systems?\nWhy does this layout often lead to better compression and faster analytical queries?\nDatabase Instrumentation \u0026amp; Monitoring [Hard]\nWhat metrics and logs are most critical for diagnosing performance issues (e.g., slow queries, lock contention, replication lag)?\nHow do tools like slow-query logs, query tracing, or real-time dashboards help?\nDatabase Deployment in a Distributed Environment [Hard]\nWhat challenges arise when deploying a database cluster across multiple data centers or regions?\nDiscuss latency, consensus protocols, and partition management for large-scale systems.\nDatabase Security [Hard]\nHow do databases enforce Role-Based Access Control (RBAC), encryption at rest, and auditing?\nWhat are the main vectors for SQL injection or privilege escalation, and how can they be mitigated?\n5. Distributed Systems # CAP Theorem [Easy]\nRecap the CAP theorem (Consistency, Availability, Partition Tolerance). Why can’t a system guarantee all three simultaneously, and how do real-world systems balance these trade-offs?\nEventual Consistency [Easy]\nHow does eventual consistency differ from strong consistency? Provide examples of systems or data structures (like CRDTs) that achieve eventual consistency in distributed environments.\nService Discovery [Easy]\nDescribe how a large-scale microservices architecture might handle service discovery (e.g., DNS-based, Consul, Zookeeper, Eureka). What are potential failure modes?\nID Generation \u0026amp; Monotonic Counters [Easy]\nIn a distributed setting, how do you ensure unique or sequential identifiers (e.g., Snowflake IDs, Zookeeper-based counters)?\nDiscuss potential bottlenecks, latency concerns, and fallback strategies.\nLoad Balancing \u0026amp; Failover [Easy]\nExplain how distributed systems can dynamically rebalance workloads when some nodes become overloaded. What are typical failover strategies in a cluster?\nCircuit Breaking \u0026amp; Rate Limiting [Easy]\nHow do circuit breaker patterns and rate-limiting strategies protect services under heavy load or partial failures?\nProvide real-world examples (e.g., Hystrix, Envoy) and discuss their trade-offs.\nMicroservices vs. Monolith [Medium]\nWhat are the advantages and disadvantages of decomposing a system into microservices vs. maintaining a single monolith?\nWhich organizational, deployment, and scaling factors typically drive the decision?\nScalable Pub/Sub [Medium]\nDiscuss how systems like Kafka, NATS, or RabbitMQ handle high-throughput messaging. What patterns are used to ensure durability, ordering, and consumer scalability?\nData Partitioning \u0026amp; Replication Strategies [Medium]\nHow do systems like Cassandra, Dynamo, or HBase partition data across nodes? Discuss replication factors, consistent hashing, and handling node join/leave events.\nNetwork Partitions [Medium]\nWhat happens when a major network partition occurs? How do you design your system to degrade gracefully or automatically recover when connectivity is restored?\nDistributed Tracing \u0026amp; Monitoring [Medium]\nIn large distributed architectures, how do you pinpoint bottlenecks or errors? Discuss the role of correlation IDs, trace context propagation, and tools like Jaeger or Zipkin.\nAt-Least-Once vs. At-Most-Once Delivery [Medium]\nHow do message delivery guarantees differ in distributed queues or streaming platforms?\nWhen would you favor at-least-once delivery vs. at-most-once, and what are the implications for exactly-once processing?\nGeo-Distributed Deployments [Medium]\nHow do you architect systems that span multiple geographic regions or data centers?\nWhat latency, consistency, and cost considerations arise in cross-region communication?\nService Mesh Approaches [Medium]\nWhat is a service mesh, and how do sidecar proxies (e.g., Istio, Linkerd) help manage observability, routing, and security in microservices?\nDiscuss potential performance overhead and operational complexity.\nLeaderless Replication \u0026amp; Dynamo-Style Quorums [Medium/Hard]\nHow do leaderless systems handle writes and reads with quorum-based approaches?\nDescribe how hinted handoff, read-repair, or sloppy quorum strategies help maintain availability.\nDistributed Transactions [Hard]\nHow do two-phase commit (2PC) and three-phase commit (3PC) protocols coordinate distributed transactions? In practice, when are they too expensive or risky?\nSagas \u0026amp; Orchestration in Distributed Systems [Hard]\nWhat is the Saga pattern, and how does it coordinate long-running transactions across microservices?\nCompare orchestration-based (centralized controller) vs. choreography-based (event-driven) saga implementations.\nByzantine Fault Tolerance [Hard]\nHow do systems like PBFT handle nodes that act arbitrarily or maliciously (beyond simple crash failures)?\nDiscuss the overhead and typical use cases for Byzantine-resistant protocols.\nConsensus Protocols (e.g., Raft, Paxos) [Hard]\nWalk through how Raft (or Paxos) handles leader election and log replication. What are the main failure scenarios and how does the protocol recover?\nChaos Engineering \u0026amp; Fault Injection [Hard]\nHow do practices like chaos engineering (e.g., randomly killing nodes, injecting latency) help validate system resilience?\nWhat tooling (e.g., Chaos Monkey) and metrics can guide improvements in fault tolerance?\n6. System Design # Design for Failure [Easy]\nWalk through how to design a system that gracefully handles failures (e.g., circuit breakers, bulkheads, retries with exponential backoff). Provide real-world patterns.\nAPI Gateway \u0026amp; Microservices [Easy]\nHow do you design an API gateway layer in a microservices architecture? What features (e.g., request routing, authentication, rate limiting) should it provide?\nEvolution of Services (Versioning \u0026amp; Backward Compatibility) [Easy]\nHow do you roll out new versions of a service without breaking existing consumers? Discuss strategies for versioning, feature flags, and canary releases to maintain backward compatibility.\nCache Invalidation \u0026amp; Consistency [Easy]\nWhat are common caching strategies (write-through, write-back, write-around)? How do you handle cache invalidation to ensure data consistency at scale?\nObservability (Logs, Metrics, Traces) [Easy/Medium]\nIn a large-scale distributed system, what logging, metrics, and tracing infrastructure do you need? How do you ensure that critical debugging information is easily accessible?\nSecurity \u0026amp; Access Control [Medium]\nHow do you design a system that enforces fine-grained access control across multiple services? Discuss an approach using OAuth, JWT, or a custom token-based system.\nRate Limiting at Scale [Medium]\nIn a high-traffic environment, how do you implement global rate limiting? Discuss token bucket algorithms, distributed counters, and the difficulties of synchronization.\nAPI Throttling \u0026amp; Governance [Medium]\nHow do you prevent downstream overload by controlling inbound request rates?\nDiscuss how governance policies can shape API usage, versioning, and third-party integrations.\nDatabase Sharding Strategy [Medium]\nGiven a rapidly growing dataset, how would you shard and scale the database? Discuss re-sharding and the operational complexities of horizontal scaling.\nFeature Flags \u0026amp; Canary Releases [Medium]\nHow do feature flags help decouple deployment from release?\nDescribe a canary release strategy that tests new functionality with a small subset of users before rolling out broadly.\nEvent-Driven vs. Request-Driven Architectures [Medium]\nHow does an event-driven approach differ from synchronous request-driven designs?\nDiscuss advantages, drawbacks, and typical use cases for each.\nLoad Balancing \u0026amp; Traffic Splitting [Medium]\nHow do you distribute requests across multiple servers or data centers?\nDiscuss different algorithms (round-robin, least connections, etc.) and how you might dynamically route traffic based on health checks or latency.\nStreaming Data Pipeline [Medium/Hard]\nDescribe how to design a fault-tolerant, near-real-time data pipeline (e.g., using Kafka, Spark/Flink, or similar).\nHighlight the challenges in ensuring exactly-once semantics.\nGlobal Deployment [Hard]\nYou need a system that is globally available with minimal latency. How would you distribute workloads across multiple regions and handle data replication?\nData Modeling for Microservices [Hard]\nWhen each microservice owns its own data store, how do you handle cross-service queries, data duplication, and referential integrity?\nDiscuss strategies to keep data loosely coupled yet consistent.\nDistributed Configuration Management [Hard]\nHow do large-scale systems manage shared configuration (e.g., feature flags, system settings) across services and regions?\nDiscuss potential tools (Consul, Zookeeper, etc.) and consistency trade-offs.\nMulti-Region Failover \u0026amp; Disaster Recovery [Hard]\nWhat strategies allow a system to continue functioning when an entire region fails?\nHow do you handle data synchronization, DNS failover, and stateful workloads?\nResilient Messaging with DLQs (Dead Letter Queues) [Hard]\nHow do you design messaging systems to handle unprocessable messages (e.g., poison messages)?\nDiscuss how DLQs enable retries, triage, or manual intervention.\nSecurity \u0026amp; Compliance at Scale [Hard]\nHow do you manage encryption, key rotation, audit logging, and adherence to regulatory requirements (e.g., GDPR, HIPAA) across a large distributed system?\nComplex Orchestration \u0026amp; Scheduling [Hard]\nHow do systems like Kubernetes, Nomad, or Mesos schedule workloads across clusters?\nDiscuss bin packing, resource constraints, and handling transient failures or node churn.\n7. Networking # OSI Model vs. TCP/IP Model [Easy]\nHow do the OSI and TCP/IP models differ in terms of layers and abstractions?\nWhich layers map to one another, and how are they commonly used in practice?\nSubnetting \u0026amp; CIDR [Easy]\nWhat is CIDR (Classless Inter-Domain Routing)?\nExplain how subnet masks are determined and why they matter for efficient IP address allocation.\nTCP Congestion Control [Easy]\nDescribe how TCP’s congestion control algorithm (e.g., Reno, CUBIC) adapts to network conditions.\nHow do slow start, congestion avoidance, fast retransmit, and fast recovery interplay?\nDHCP \u0026amp; DNS Fundamentals [Easy]\nHow do DHCP servers assign IP addresses to clients, and why might you use static reservations?\nDescribe the role of DNS resolvers, authoritative name servers, and caching in name resolution.\nNAT vs. Proxy [Easy/Medium]\nWhat are the conceptual differences between Network Address Translation (NAT) and an application-layer proxy?\nIn which scenarios would you prefer one over the other?\nAAA \u0026amp; RADIUS [Medium]\nHow do Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) protocols like RADIUS work?\nDiscuss where they typically fit in an enterprise network and how they integrate with LDAP or Active Directory.\nSNI (Server Name Indication) [Medium]\nExplain how SNI works within the TLS handshake, why it’s necessary, and how it’s used by CDNs and modern hosting environments to enable multi-tenant TLS.\nPacket Capture Analysis [Medium]\nYou notice intermittent network timeouts for a critical service. Which low-level tools (e.g., tcpdump, Wireshark) would you use to diagnose the issue, and what patterns might you look for in the captured packets?\nTLS/SSL Handshake [Medium]\nWalk through the TLS handshake in detail. Where do security guarantees come from, and how is forward secrecy ensured with modern ciphersuites?\nAdvanced NAT Challenges [Medium]\nIn large enterprise or carrier-grade NAT scenarios, how do you deal with port exhaustion and session tracking?\nDiscuss the potential pitfalls for real-time services or high-traffic applications.\nZero Trust Networking [Medium]\nWhat does a zero-trust model entail in terms of access control and micro-segmentation?\nHow do policies get enforced across disparate network segments and devices?\nNetwork Virtualization [Medium/Hard]\nDiscuss how VXLAN or Geneve protocols encapsulate Layer 2 frames over Layer 3 networks.\nWhat issues do they solve compared to traditional VLANs, and what are the trade-offs?\nLoad Balancing at Scale [Medium/Hard]\nHow do large-scale load balancers (e.g., Layer 4 vs. Layer 7) handle massive throughput?\nDiscuss consistent hashing, connection tracking, and the performance overhead of deep packet inspection.\nIPsec \u0026amp; VPN Tunneling [Hard]\nHow does IPsec provide confidentiality and integrity for IP traffic?\nCompare site-to-site vs. remote-access VPNs, and discuss IKE negotiation steps.\nBGP (Border Gateway Protocol) Nuances [Hard]\nIn a complex autonomous system setup, how do route flaps get handled, and what is route damping?\nHow can misconfigurations lead to global routing table instability?\nLow-Latency Networking [Hard]\nIn systems like high-frequency trading or real-time media streaming, how do you minimize latency?\nDiscuss kernel bypass (e.g., DPDK), RDMA, and specialized network hardware.\nSDN (Software-Defined Networking) [Hard]\nHow does OpenFlow or other SDN controllers interact with network hardware?\nDescribe the control plane vs. data plane separation and how it impacts network programmability.\nHTTP/2 and HTTP/3 (QUIC) [Hard]\nCompare and contrast HTTP/2 with HTTP/3.\nHow does QUIC address the head-of-line blocking problem inherent in TCP, and what complexities does it introduce at scale?\nWireless Performance \u0026amp; Channel Bonding [Hard]\nHow do 802.11 standards (e.g., 802.11ac/ax) achieve higher throughput with channel bonding and MIMO?\nWhat are typical interference issues, and how do deployments mitigate them?\nMulticast Routing \u0026amp; IGMP [Hard]\nHow is IP multicast different from unicast or broadcast?\nDiscuss how protocols like IGMP, PIM (Sparse/Dense Mode), and MSDP coordinate to distribute multicast traffic in large networks.\n8. Python Internals # Memory Management \u0026amp; Reference Counting [Easy]\nDescribe Python’s memory management strategy. How do reference counting and the cyclic garbage collector complement each other, and where do they fall short?\nGIL (Global Interpreter Lock) [Easy]\nExplain how the GIL affects multi-threaded Python programs. Under what conditions can threads still achieve concurrency, and what are the best practices to work around the GIL’s limitations?\nBytecode \u0026amp; Execution Model [Easy]\nDetail the Python execution model from source code to bytecode to execution by the CPython virtual machine. How does the dis module help you understand Python’s bytecode?\nPython’s Import System [Easy/Medium]\nWhat happens under the hood when Python imports a module? Discuss sys.modules, import hooks, and the process of finding, loading, and caching modules.\nInterned Strings \u0026amp; Immutable Objects [Easy/Medium]\nPython internally interns some strings. How does this work, and why can it be beneficial? Discuss how immutability of certain objects (e.g., strings, tuples) can improve performance.\nDescriptor Protocol [Medium]\nHow do __get__, __set__, and __delete__ work under the descriptor protocol?\nShow examples of how they power core features like @property, methods, and staticmethod.\nMetaclasses \u0026amp; Class Creation [Medium]\nProvide an overview of how metaclasses in Python can alter class creation.\nWhy would you use a metaclass instead of a decorator or a class factory function, and what are common pitfalls?\nC-API \u0026amp; C Extensions [Medium]\nHow do you write and integrate native C extensions into Python, and why might you do it?\nDiscuss the CPython ABI, reference counting in extension code, and performance trade-offs.\nConcurrency with asyncio [Medium]\nHow does the asyncio event loop schedule tasks, and how does it differ from preemptive multi-threading?\nDiscuss how coroutines, tasks, and event loops interact behind the scenes.\nMemory Profiling \u0026amp; Debugging [Medium]\nIf a large Python service suffers from memory bloat over time, how would you go about isolating leaks and understanding object growth?\nMention relevant tools, the tracemalloc module, and patterns for diagnosing memory usage.\nThreading vs. Multiprocessing [Medium]\nCompare Python’s threading and multiprocessing libraries.\nIn which scenarios does one excel over the other, and how does the GIL influence this decision?\nContext Managers \u0026amp; the with Statement [Medium]\nHow do Python context managers work under the hood?\nDescribe how __enter__ and __exit__ enable resource management and how the contextlib utilities expand this pattern.\nPython Interpreter Variants [Medium]\nCompare CPython, PyPy, Jython, and IronPython.\nWhat are the trade-offs in terms of performance, compatibility, and ecosystem support?\nExtensions with Cython or SWIG [Medium/Hard]\nHow do tools like Cython or SWIG simplify building extensions versus writing raw C code against the CPython C-API?\nDiscuss differences in performance, developer ergonomics, and maintenance overhead.\nPython Object Model \u0026amp; Slots [Hard]\nHow does Python store object attributes internally?\nExplain how using __slots__ can reduce memory usage and why it might break some expected behaviors.\nInterpreter Hooks \u0026amp; Profilers [Hard]\nHow can you use the built-in sys.settrace or sys.setprofile hooks to monitor function calls, exceptions, or line-level execution?\nWhat overhead do these introduce, and how can they be used responsibly?\nMemory Fragmentation \u0026amp; Allocators [Hard]\nHow does CPython organize memory in different arenas, pools, and blocks (the pymalloc allocator)?\nDiscuss potential fragmentation issues and how large object allocations get handled.\nGarbage Collection Tuning [Hard]\nWhat environment variables or runtime hooks can you use to fine-tune Python’s GC (e.g., gc.set_threshold)?\nGive examples of scenarios where tuning the thresholds improves performance or avoids memory issues.\nAST Manipulation \u0026amp; Code Generation [Hard]\nHow can Python’s Abstract Syntax Tree (via ast module) be used for metaprogramming or custom DSLs?\nDiscuss compile() for on-the-fly code generation and the security implications of dynamic code execution.\nSubinterpreters \u0026amp; Embedding Python [Hard]\nWhat does it mean to run multiple subinterpreters in a single process, and how do they differ from separate processes?\nExplain how Python can be embedded in other applications, and the challenges in sharing state or objects between subinterpreters.\nAdvanced Python Project Ideas # Below are five additional items illustrating small projects or demos that showcase advanced Python internals knowledge:\nA Custom Bytecode Transformer [Hard]\nBuild a tool that reads Python bytecode (using the dis module), modifies instructions, and dynamically executes the transformed code. This project will require an in-depth understanding of Python’s bytecode format and safe code transformation. AST-based DSL Processor [Hard]\nCreate a mini domain-specific language (DSL) in Python by parsing source strings into an AST (via the ast module), transforming it, and compiling back to executable code. Emphasize metaprogramming, handling security concerns, and ensuring robust error handling. C Extension for Performance Critical Code [Hard]\nWrite a native C extension for Python to speed up a core algorithm (e.g., a tight loop or CPU-bound processing). Focus on proper reference counting, memory management, and debugging with tools like gdb or valgrind. Custom Garbage Collection Hooks [Hard]\nExperiment with Python’s garbage collector by customizing thresholds (gc.set_threshold) and hooking into collection events. Gather performance metrics to see how changes in GC behavior affect a memory-intensive application. Embedding Python in Another Application [Hard]\nCreate a minimal C/C++ program that embeds the Python interpreter and executes Python scripts. Demonstrate how to initialize subinterpreters, exchange data between C and Python, and gracefully shut down the embedded interpreter. These small projects can highlight your ability to navigate Python’s internals, manipulate bytecode or ASTs, handle memory at a low level, and optimize performance-critical code. They also showcase advanced debugging, profiling, and architecture choices that go beyond standard application development.\n9. Cloud \u0026amp; DevOps # Immutable Infrastructure [Easy]\nHow does immutable infrastructure (e.g., baking AMIs, container images) differ from the traditional mutable approach? Explain the benefits for deployments, rollbacks, and reproducibility. Infrastructure as Code [Easy]\nWhat are the advantages and potential pitfalls of using Infrastructure as Code (IaC) tools (e.g., Terraform, CloudFormation, Pulumi)? How do you manage versioning and rollbacks in practice? Microservices Deployment Strategies [Easy]\nIn a microservices architecture, what are common strategies for deployment (blue-green, rolling updates, canary releases)? Compare trade-offs in complexity vs. risk mitigation. CI/CD Pipelines [Easy]\nOutline a high-level design for a continuous integration/continuous deployment pipeline. How do you ensure adequate testing, security scanning, and rollback capability? Secrets Management [Easy]\nWhere do you securely store secrets (API keys, passwords, certificates) in a cloud environment? Discuss the use of systems like AWS Secrets Manager or HashiCorp Vault. Cost Optimization [Medium]\nIn a high-traffic environment, how do you analyze and optimize cloud spending? Discuss reserved instances, spot instances, and architectural trade-offs. Scaling Strategies [Medium]\nHow do you decide between vertical scaling vs. horizontal scaling in cloud environments? What metrics and thresholds typically trigger autoscaling? Serverless Architectures [Medium]\nWhat are the benefits and drawbacks of serverless platforms (AWS Lambda, Azure Functions, Google Cloud Functions)? Give examples of use cases that are well-suited vs. ill-suited. Multi-Cloud or Hybrid Cloud [Medium]\nWhat challenges arise when deploying workloads across multiple cloud providers or a hybrid cloud environment? How do you handle networking, data consistency, and governance? Disaster Recovery \u0026amp; Backup [Medium]\nHow would you design a disaster recovery strategy for a mission-critical application? Discuss RPO (Recovery Point Objective), RTO (Recovery Time Objective), and data replication approaches. Release Management \u0026amp; Feature Flags [Medium]\nHow do you coordinate release schedules across multiple teams in a DevOps environment? Discuss how feature flags enable progressive rollouts and quick rollbacks. Observability \u0026amp; Alerting [Medium]\nWhich metrics, logs, and traces should be collected in a cloud-native environment? How do you prevent alert fatigue while ensuring critical incidents are surfaced promptly? Chaos Engineering [Medium/Hard]\nWhat does chaos engineering aim to achieve, and what are the key tools (e.g., Chaos Monkey)? How do you safely introduce controlled failures to validate resilience? GitOps Workflow [Medium/Hard]\nHow does GitOps extend the IaC paradigm to manage application deployments? Discuss the benefits of declarative configuration and automated reconciliation. Cloud Networking \u0026amp; Security Groups [Hard]\nHow do you design secure VPCs and subnets across multiple regions or accounts? What are best practices for configuring security groups, NACLs, and load balancers in the cloud? Configuration Management vs. Containerization [Hard]\nWhat roles do configuration management tools (e.g., Ansible, Chef) play when most services run in containers? How do container orchestration platforms like Kubernetes change the approach to config management? Complex Deployment Pipelines [Hard]\nIn a monorepo or polyrepo context, how do you manage dependencies, build artifacts, and environment-specific configurations? Discuss pipeline stages from code commit to production deployment. Blue/Green vs. Rolling Deployments [Hard]\nHow do you decide between blue/green and rolling strategies for zero-downtime updates? What are potential risks for each, and how can they be mitigated? Kubernetes Operators [Hard]\nWhat is the Operator pattern in Kubernetes, and how does it encapsulate operational knowledge into custom controllers? Give examples of advanced Operators that manage complex applications (e.g., databases). Policy as Code \u0026amp; Governance [Hard]\nHow can tools like Open Policy Agent (OPA) enforce governance policies across multiple clusters or cloud accounts? Discuss the trade-offs between flexible policy definitions and operational complexity. 10. Security # Threat Modeling [Easy]\nWalk through the steps of a typical threat modeling exercise. How do you identify assets, threats, and mitigations, and how do you prioritize which threats to address first? Encryption in Transit and At Rest [Easy]\nHow do you implement end-to-end encryption for data in transit (TLS, IPsec) and data at rest (disk encryption, database encryption)? How do you manage and rotate keys? Compliance Frameworks [Easy]\nDiscuss how organizations handle compliance with frameworks such as GDPR, PCI-DSS, HIPAA, or SOC 2. What processes and controls are essential to maintain compliance at scale? Security Incident Response [Easy]\nWhen a security breach is detected, what are the key steps in an incident response plan? Outline containment, eradication, recovery, and post-incident analysis. Password Policies \u0026amp; MFA [Easy/Medium]\nWhat are best practices for storing passwords (e.g., hashing + salt)? How does multi-factor authentication (MFA) improve security, and what common MFA methods are used? Zero Trust Architecture [Medium]\nWhat is zero trust networking, and how does it differ from traditional perimeter-based security? What technologies and practices enable a zero trust model? Identity and Access Management (IAM) [Medium]\nHow do you handle user authentication and authorization for internal services at scale? Discuss role-based access control (RBAC) vs. attribute-based access control (ABAC). Application Security Testing [Medium]\nWhat tools and methodologies do you use for security testing (static analysis, dynamic analysis, fuzzing)? Give examples of common vulnerabilities uncovered by these methods. OAuth and JWT [Medium]\nExplain how OAuth 2.0 works in a microservices environment. How do JSON Web Tokens (JWT) facilitate stateless authentication, and what are potential security pitfalls? Container Security [Medium]\nIn a containerized environment, how do you secure the container lifecycle (image scanning, runtime security, isolation)? What’s the role of tools like Aqua, Twistlock, or Falco? Intrusion Detection \u0026amp; Prevention [Medium]\nHow do you design an IDS/IPS system for detecting malicious activity in real time? What are the trade-offs between signature-based and behavior-based detection? Security Logging \u0026amp; Monitoring [Medium]\nWhich logs and metrics are critical for detecting anomalies (e.g., login attempts, privilege escalations)? How do you use SIEM (Security Information \u0026amp; Event Management) tools to correlate events? API Security \u0026amp; Rate Limiting [Medium]\nHow do you secure public APIs against abuse, such as credential stuffing or DDoS attacks? What role does rate limiting, IP allowlisting, or WAF (Web Application Firewall) play? Network Segmentation \u0026amp; Micro-Segmentation [Medium/Hard]\nWhy is network segmentation crucial for limiting lateral movement? How do you implement micro-segmentation in a hybrid or cloud-native environment? Security-Oriented Design Patterns [Hard]\nWhat design patterns (e.g., Policy Enforcement Point, AAA) do you see in secure architectures? How do these patterns integrate with existing CI/CD pipelines and DevSecOps practices? Hardware Security Modules (HSMs) [Hard]\nWhat is an HSM, and why are they used for storing cryptographic keys? Discuss performance considerations, key ceremonies, and integration challenges. Insider Threat Detection [Hard]\nHow do you detect malicious or negligent insider activities? Discuss monitoring strategies, least privilege enforcement, and behavior anomaly detection. Secure Coding Standards \u0026amp; Code Review [Hard]\nHow do organizations enforce secure coding practices (e.g., OWASP Top Ten) across teams? What role does automated code scanning play in a mature security program? Advanced Persistence \u0026amp; Lateral Movement [Hard]\nOnce an attacker gains initial access, how do they establish persistence or move laterally? Discuss techniques like DLL injection, pass-the-hash, or token impersonation, and how to defend against them. Emerging Threats \u0026amp; Zero-Day Exploits [Hard]\nHow do organizations stay ahead of zero-day exploits or advanced persistent threats (APTs)? Discuss bug bounty programs, threat intelligence sharing, and rapid patch management. 11. Machine Learning \u0026amp; Data Engineering # Data Engineering # Data Modeling Fundamentals [Easy] What is the difference between conceptual, logical, and physical data models? How do normalization and denormalization impact data integrity and query performance? Partitioning \u0026amp; Bucketing [Easy] How do partitioning and bucketing strategies help optimize queries on large datasets? In which scenarios would you choose one approach over the other? Data Pipeline Architecture [Easy] Original Question #1 How do you design a robust ETL pipeline for both batch and real-time data ingestion? Discuss the role of messaging systems (Kafka, Kinesis), data processing frameworks (Spark, Flink), and storage layers. Workflow Orchestration Tools [Easy] How do tools like Airflow, Luigi, or Prefect coordinate multi-step data workflows? What features (e.g., DAGs, scheduling, retry policies) make these tools essential for production pipelines? Data Quality \u0026amp; Governance [Medium] Original Question #4 What measures do you take to ensure data quality (schema validation, anomaly detection) and governance (lineage tracking, PII handling)? Why are these critical for ML success? Columnar vs. Row-Based Storage [Medium] How do columnar storage formats (e.g., Parquet, ORC) differ from row-based formats (e.g., CSV, JSON)? In what scenarios does columnar storage provide a significant performance boost? ACID vs. Eventual Consistency [Medium] Compare fully ACID-compliant systems with eventually consistent datastores. Where do CAP theorem trade-offs influence the choice of database consistency? Data Lake vs. Data Warehouse [Medium] Original Question #8 Compare the roles of a data lake (unstructured or semi-structured data) and a data warehouse (structured, schema-on-write). In what scenarios is each approach more suitable? ETL vs. ELT Approaches [Medium] How does ETL (transform before load) differ from ELT (load then transform)? Discuss typical technology stacks for each and trade-offs in scalability. Data Versioning \u0026amp; Lineage [Medium] Why is it important to track data versions and transformations over time? Which tools or frameworks (e.g., DataHub, Amundsen) assist with lineage tracking? Handling Slowly Changing Dimensions [Medium] What strategies (Type 1, Type 2, etc.) exist for managing dimensional changes in data warehouses? When do you apply each strategy, and what are the storage implications? Streaming Frameworks \u0026amp; Windowing [Medium/Hard] How do streaming frameworks like Spark Structured Streaming, Flink, or Storm handle windowing operations? Discuss event-time vs. processing-time windows and their impact on correctness. Orchestrating Data Pipelines at Scale [Hard] How do you manage large, interdependent DAGs spanning multiple teams or domains? Discuss approaches to handle upstream failures, partial reruns, and versioned deployments. Scalability \u0026amp; Performance Tuning [Hard] How do you profile and optimize SQL queries, Spark jobs, or Flink pipelines? Discuss common bottlenecks (I/O, network, shuffle) and typical tuning strategies. Data Catalog \u0026amp; Metadata Management [Hard] Why is a data catalog essential for discoverability and governance? How do you integrate automated metadata extraction into your pipeline? Real-time Aggregations \u0026amp; OLAP [Hard] How do systems like Druid or Pinot provide low-latency OLAP queries on real-time data streams? Compare these to traditional batch-based OLAP cubes in terms of architecture and use cases. Data Governance \u0026amp; Compliance [Hard] Beyond quality, how do you enforce data usage policies, access controls, and retention rules at scale? What role do data stewards or committees play in governance? GDPR \u0026amp; Data Privacy [Hard] How do regulations (GDPR, CCPA) affect data collection, storage, and deletion? Discuss techniques for pseudonymization, anonymization, and user consent management. Data Security \u0026amp; Classification [Hard] How do you classify data (public, internal, confidential) and apply appropriate encryption or access controls? What processes ensure compliance with internal policies and external regulations? Cross-Platform Data Flows [Hard] How do you transfer data between on-prem systems, multiple clouds, or hybrid environments? Discuss latency, egress costs, and consistency concerns for cross-platform pipelines. Machine Learning # Supervised vs. Unsupervised Learning [Easy]\nWhat are the main differences in data requirements and outcome types between supervised and unsupervised learning? Give examples of each and typical algorithms used. Feature Engineering [Easy]\nOriginal Question #2 In a production ML pipeline, how do you manage feature extraction and transformation at scale? How do you ensure consistency between training and inference? Model Serving [Easy]\nOriginal Question #3 What architectures can serve ML models with low latency and high throughput (e.g., TensorFlow Serving, FastAPI, Docker-based microservices)? How do you handle versioning of models? Evaluation Metrics [Easy]\nHow do you select the right metric (e.g., accuracy, F1, ROC AUC) for a given problem? When might a single metric be insufficient? Hyperparameter Tuning [Medium]\nWhat methods (grid search, random search, Bayesian optimization) are commonly used to tune ML models? How do you balance exploration vs. exploitation in your search space? Cross-Validation Strategies [Medium]\nWhy is k-fold cross-validation often preferred over a single train/test split? How do techniques like stratification, nested CV, or repeated CV address model evaluation pitfalls? Regularization Techniques [Medium]\nWhat are L1 (Lasso) and L2 (Ridge) regularization? When would you use each, and how do they impact model coefficients and overfitting? Monitoring ML Models [Medium]\nOriginal Question #5 After deployment, how do you detect concept drift or performance degradation in ML models? Describe the metrics you track and how you automate alerts. ML Experiment Tracking [Medium]\nOriginal Question #9 How do you keep track of experiments, hyperparameters, and model performance? Discuss the role of tools like MLflow, Weights \u0026amp; Biases, or internal solutions. Ethics \u0026amp; Bias [Medium]\nOriginal Question #10 Machine Learning systems can perpetuate biases. How do you detect and mitigate unintended bias in your training data and model outputs? Feature Stores [Medium]\nWhat is a feature store, and how does it centralize feature definitions for consistency? How do you handle real-time feature updates vs. batch feature ingestion? Distributed Training [Medium/Hard]\nOriginal Question #6 How do large-scale deep learning frameworks (e.g., PyTorch, TensorFlow) handle distributed training across multiple GPUs or nodes? What pitfalls can arise with data parallelism? Online Learning \u0026amp; Real-Time Inference [Medium/Hard]\nOriginal Question #7 Discuss scenarios where online learning or streaming inference is required. How do you manage dynamic model updates without disrupting service? Explainability \u0026amp; Interpretability [Hard]\nWhy are SHAP, LIME, and other interpretability methods important for complex models? How do you balance model accuracy with the need for transparency? Active Learning [Hard]\nWhen is active learning beneficial for labeling efficiency? Discuss pool-based sampling strategies and the operational complexity of incrementally retraining models. Transfer Learning \u0026amp; Fine-Tuning [Hard]\nWhat are the advantages of transfer learning in deep neural networks? How do you choose which layers to freeze vs. retrain for specific tasks? ML Model Compression \u0026amp; Optimization [Hard]\nWhat techniques (pruning, quantization, knowledge distillation) reduce model size and inference latency? How do you balance accuracy loss with computational gains? Federated Learning [Hard]\nHow does federated learning train a global model using data distributed across multiple clients without centralizing the data? Discuss the privacy and communication challenges involved. AutoML \u0026amp; Neural Architecture Search (NAS) [Hard]\nWhat is AutoML, and how does it automate tasks like feature selection or hyperparameter tuning? How do advanced techniques like NAS discover optimal network topologies? Reinforcement Learning in Production [Hard]\nWhat are the main challenges of deploying RL systems (exploration vs. exploitation, safety constraints)? Give examples of real-world RL deployments and how they handle continuous learning. 12. Low-Level Performance \u0026amp; Profiling # Performance Testing Methodology [Easy]\nHow do you design a rigorous performance test? Consider load generation, instrumentation, capturing metrics, and ensuring reproducibility. Profiling Techniques [Easy]\nWhat tools and techniques do you use to profile CPU, memory, and I/O usage in a high-performance application? Provide examples of using perf, gprof, or instrumentation frameworks. Microbenchmarking \u0026amp; Pitfalls [Easy]\nHow do you measure function-level performance accurately? Discuss typical pitfalls like CPU frequency scaling, warm-up effects, and compiler optimizations. Latency vs. Throughput [Medium]\nHow do you balance latency and throughput in an application designed for high concurrency? Give examples of trade-offs in network processing or I/O handling. Lock Contention \u0026amp; Concurrency [Medium]\nHow do you detect and resolve lock contention issues in multi-threaded applications? Discuss strategies like lock striping, lock-free data structures, or read-write locks. Memory Alignment \u0026amp; Caching [Medium]\nWhy does data alignment matter for performance on modern CPUs? Discuss cache line sizes, false sharing, and how to structure data to reduce cache misses. Asynchronous I/O \u0026amp; Event Loops [Medium]\nHow do asynchronous I/O frameworks (e.g., epoll, IOCP, libuv) differ from multi-threaded approaches in managing concurrency? Explain event loops and callback-based or async/await approaches. Vectorization \u0026amp; SIMD [Medium/Hard]\nHow can compilers and libraries take advantage of SIMD instructions (e.g., SSE, AVX) for performance gains? What are typical pitfalls in writing vectorized code? Compiler Intrinsics [Medium/Hard]\nIn performance-critical C/C++ code, how might you use compiler intrinsics to optimize loops or atomic operations? Why would you sometimes bypass language abstractions? Memory Pooling \u0026amp; Allocators [Medium/Hard]\nIn high-throughput systems, how can custom memory allocators or pooling strategies reduce overhead from frequent allocations? Illustrate typical patterns or libraries used. Hardware Counters \u0026amp; eBPF [Hard]\nExplain how hardware performance counters and eBPF can provide deep insights into kernel-level behavior. Describe a scenario where these are critical for troubleshooting. NUMA Optimization [Hard]\nIn a Non-Uniform Memory Access system, how do you design data structures and threads to minimize cross-node access? Explain how OS scheduling impacts performance. Real-Time Systems [Hard]\nWhat are the unique constraints of real-time operating systems (RTOS)? How do you guarantee upper bounds on latency, and what scheduling algorithms do they employ? HPC \u0026amp; Parallel Algorithms [Hard]\nIn High-Performance Computing (HPC) settings, how do you design parallel algorithms for large-scale problems? Discuss domain decomposition, load balancing, and scaling on clusters or supercomputers. Kernel Bypass \u0026amp; DPDK [Hard]\nWhy do some applications bypass the kernel networking stack using frameworks like DPDK or RDMA? Discuss the performance benefits and programming complexity trade-offs. Large-Scale Caching Strategies [Hard]\nHow do you design and manage large-scale caching layers (e.g., memcached, Redis) to maintain consistent performance? Discuss replication, sharding, and eviction policies. Lock-Free \u0026amp; Wait-Free Data Structures [Hard]\nCompare lock-free vs. wait-free concurrency approaches. What are the trade-offs in complexity, throughput, and correctness guarantees? Low-Latency Networking [Hard]\nIn systems requiring microsecond-level response times, how do you minimize network stack overhead? Discuss specialized NICs, driver tuning, and network protocols optimized for latency. GPGPU Offloading [Hard]\nHow do you leverage GPUs for general-purpose computation to accelerate performance-critical workloads? Discuss memory transfer overhead, concurrency models (e.g., CUDA, OpenCL), and common pitfalls. JIT \u0026amp; Bytecode Interpreters [Hard]\nHow do just-in-time compilation techniques (e.g., LLVM, Graal) or bytecode interpreters optimize runtime performance? Provide examples of dynamic optimizations or profiling. 13. Linux # Basic Shell \u0026amp; Filesystem Commands [Easy] Which commands would you use to list files, create directories, and inspect file contents? How do relative and absolute paths differ? File Permissions \u0026amp; Ownership [Easy] How are permissions (r, w, x) and ownership (user, group, others) set on files and directories? How do commands like chmod, chown, and umask work? Process Management [Easy] How do you list running processes and terminate them? Explain how signals (e.g., SIGTERM, SIGKILL) and process states interact. Package Managers [Easy] How do package management tools differ across distributions (e.g., apt, yum, dnf, pacman)? How do you install, remove, and update packages? System Monitoring [Easy] Which tools (e.g., top, htop, vmstat, iostat) help monitor CPU, memory, and disk usage? What insights can logs in /var/log provide about system health? Users, Groups \u0026amp; Sudo [Medium] How do you manage users and groups (e.g., /etc/passwd, /etc/group, usermod, groupadd)? When and why would you configure sudo for privilege escalation? Shell Scripting \u0026amp; Automation [Medium] How do you write and execute a basic shell script? Discuss common scripting constructs (loops, conditionals, environment variables). Init Systems \u0026amp; Services [Medium] Compare SysV init vs. systemd. How do you enable, disable, start, or stop services (e.g., systemctl, service)? Networking Basics [Medium] How do you configure IP addresses, gateways, and DNS (e.g., ip, ifconfig, /etc/resolv.conf)? Which commands help troubleshoot connectivity (e.g., ping, netstat, ss, traceroute)? Filesystem Hierarchy \u0026amp; Mounting [Medium] How is the Linux filesystem structured (e.g., /etc, /usr, /var)? How do you mount and unmount filesystems, and what are typical filesystems (e.g., ext4, XFS)? System Logging \u0026amp; Journaling [Hard] How does syslog or journald collect and store logs? How do you configure log rotation and persist logs for auditing? Linux Scheduling \u0026amp; Priorities [Hard] How does the Linux scheduler decide which process to run next? What do nice and renice do, and how do priority classes impact CPU time? cgroups \u0026amp; Namespaces [Hard] How do control groups (cgroups) manage resource limits? What role do namespaces (PID, net, mount) play in isolation (e.g., containers)? Virtual Memory \u0026amp; Swapping [Hard] How does Linux manage virtual memory, including paging and swapping? How do you configure swap and tune parameters (e.g., swappiness)? Firewall \u0026amp; netfilter/iptables [Hard] How does netfilter work under the hood to filter packets? How would you configure iptables or nftables rules for common firewall scenarios? SELinux or AppArmor [Hard] What problems do mandatory access control systems (SELinux, AppArmor) solve? How do you configure SELinux policy or AppArmor profiles to lock down services? Kernel Modules \u0026amp; Device Drivers [Hard] How do you list, load, or unload kernel modules with lsmod, modprobe, rmmod? What are the basic steps for writing a simple device driver? eBPF \u0026amp; Tracing [Hard] What is eBPF, and how does it provide low-overhead tracing and networking capabilities? Describe a scenario where eBPF programs give insights that traditional tools cannot. Performance Tuning [Hard] Which sysctl parameters commonly improve performance (e.g., network buffers, kernel scheduling)? How would you methodically profile and benchmark a high-load server? Kernel Compilation \u0026amp; Customization [Hard] Why might you compile a custom kernel, and what are the main steps (e.g., make menuconfig, modules, etc.)? How do you manage kernel patches or apply real-time patches for specialized workloads? 14. Observability \u0026amp; Monitoring # Metrics, Logs, Traces [Easy]\nWhat are the differences between metrics, logs, and distributed traces? Why is each important for diagnosing system issues? Logging Best Practices [Easy]\nIn a distributed application, how do you ensure consistent, structured logs? Discuss correlation IDs, log verbosity levels, and log aggregation strategies. Instrumentation Standards [Easy]\nHow do frameworks like OpenTelemetry standardize metrics, logging, and tracing? What advantages do you gain by adhering to these open standards? Dashboards \u0026amp; Visualization [Easy]\nHow do you design effective dashboards for real-time monitoring? Discuss best practices for data visualization, grouping metrics by service, and enabling drill-downs. Alerting \u0026amp; Thresholds [Medium]\nHow do you determine which metrics to set alerts on and what thresholds to use? Discuss the trade-off between too many alerts vs. missed critical issues. Service-Level Indicators (SLIs) \u0026amp; Objectives (SLOs) [Medium]\nHow do you define and measure SLIs (latency, error rate, throughput), and set realistic SLOs? What role do error budgets play in operational decision-making? Synthetic Monitoring [Medium]\nHow does synthetic monitoring differ from real-user monitoring? In what scenarios would synthetic tests (e.g., ping tests, transaction scripts) be most valuable? Distributed Tracing [Medium]\nOriginal #6 Explain how distributed tracing tools like Jaeger or Zipkin capture request flows across microservices. How do you interpret trace data to pinpoint performance bottlenecks? Monitoring in Serverless Environments [Medium/Hard]\nWhat challenges arise when monitoring serverless applications (short-lived containers, ephemeral compute)? How do you instrument and collect metrics or logs in this model? Capacity Planning [Medium/Hard]\nWhat data do you collect to forecast future capacity needs? Outline a simple approach to projecting required resources based on historical load patterns. Push vs. Pull Monitoring [Medium/Hard]\nWhat are the differences between push-based (e.g., StatsD) and pull-based (e.g., Prometheus) metric collection? How do you decide which approach fits your environment best? Black Box vs. White Box Monitoring [Medium/Hard]\nContrast black box monitoring (external tests) with white box monitoring (application internals). When would you rely on each method, and how do they complement each other? Chaos Engineering [Hard]\nHow does chaos engineering help validate the reliability of your monitoring and alerting setup? Provide examples of experiments you might run to ensure systems can handle failures gracefully. eBPF-based Observability [Hard]\nHow can extended Berkeley Packet Filter (eBPF) provide deep, low-overhead insights at kernel level? Discuss examples where eBPF-based tools (e.g., BCC, Cilium) reveal issues that traditional logs/metrics might miss. Observability as Code [Hard]\nWhat does it mean to manage observability configurations (dashboards, alerts, instrumentation) as code? How does this approach improve consistency, collaboration, and repeatability? Security Monitoring \u0026amp; Threat Detection [Hard]\nHow do you monitor logs and metrics for potential security breaches (e.g., anomalous traffic, repeated login attempts)? Discuss the role of intrusion detection systems or SIEM platforms. Root Cause Analysis \u0026amp; Automation [Hard]\nOnce an alert fires, how do you quickly move from symptoms to root cause? Discuss approaches to automate part of the RCA process (e.g., runbooks, diagnostic scripts). Incident Response \u0026amp; On-Call Integration [Hard]\nHow do you integrate monitoring alerts with incident response systems (PagerDuty, Opsgenie)? What processes ensure on-call engineers handle alerts effectively? Multi-Cluster / Multi-Region Observability [Hard]\nHow do you collect and correlate telemetry across multiple clusters or regions? What strategies handle network partitions, different time zones, and partial outages? Scalable Telemetry in Distributed Systems [Hard]\nHow do you handle high cardinality metrics or logs at massive scale (e.g., 100K+ containers)? Discuss strategies like sampling, data partitioning, or hierarchical aggregations to manage data volume. 14. HFT Market-Making # 30 Interview-Style Questions # 1. Market Microstructure # Order Book Dynamics\nHow does a central limit order book (CLOB) process orders, and what factors influence priority (price-time priority, FIFO queues, etc.)?\nLiquidity \u0026amp; Market Impact\nWhat is the difference between being a liquidity taker vs. maker, and how do transaction fees or rebates shape market-making strategies?\n2. Exchange \u0026amp; Protocol Knowledge # Exchange Protocol Nuances\nHow do proprietary protocols like ITCH, OUCH, or FIX-FAST differ from standard FIX, and why are they often faster?\nMarket Data Handling\nIn a high-throughput environment, how would you handle incremental order book updates vs. full snapshots efficiently?\n3. Ultra-Low Latency \u0026amp; High Performance # Reducing Latency Jitter\nWhat OS-level tunings (e.g., CPU pinning, interrupt affinity) can help achieve consistent microsecond-level latency?\nLock-Free Data Structures\nWhen and why might you use lock-free or wait-free data structures in an HFT environment? What trade-offs come with this approach?\n4. Hardware Acceleration \u0026amp; FPGAs # FPGA Offloading\nWhich parts of the trading pipeline (e.g., feed parsing, risk checks, strategy logic) are most commonly offloaded to FPGAs, and why?\nFPGA vs. Software Latency\nIn deciding whether to implement a feature in FPGA vs. C++/Rust, what performance benefits or development overheads must be considered?\n5. Time Synchronization \u0026amp; Clocking # Precision Time Protocol (PTP)\nHow does PTP achieve sub-microsecond clock synchronization, and why is that level of accuracy critical for HFT?\nTimestamping Mechanisms\nWhat are the implications of hardware-level timestamping (e.g., NIC-based) on accurate latency measurement and event sequencing?\n6. Concurrency \u0026amp; Language Considerations # Choosing C++ or Rust\nIn an ultra-low-latency system, what language features make C++ or Rust more suitable than garbage-collected languages like Java or Go?\nMemory Models \u0026amp; Barriers\nHow do you ensure correct ordering of memory operations in multi-threaded HFT code, and what role do memory fences play?\n7. Algorithmic Trading \u0026amp; Strategy Development # Market-Making Basics\nHow do market makers manage inventory risk, and what signals might prompt them to widen or tighten their quotes?\nLatency vs. Alpha\nIn HFT, how do you balance the pursuit of minimal latency with the complexity of an algorithmic model that might require deeper computation?\n8. Risk Management \u0026amp; Regulatory Constraints # Real-Time Risk Checks\nHow do you implement sub-millisecond pre-trade risk checks to prevent runaway trading or fat-finger errors?\nCompliance \u0026amp; Audit Trails\nWhat regulations (e.g., MiFID II in Europe, SEC/FINRA in the US) impact HFT systems, and how do you maintain accurate millisecond- or microsecond-level audit logs?\n9. Networking in HFT # Kernel Bypass\nHow do technologies like DPDK, RDMA, or Solarflare’s Onload reduce latency compared to standard socket-based networking?\nMulticast \u0026amp; Market Data\nWhen consuming real-time market data via multicast, how do you handle packet loss or sequencing issues to maintain a consistent order book?\n10. Advanced Testing \u0026amp; Simulation # Historical Replay\nHow would you design a test harness that can replay historical order book data at accelerated speeds to stress-test your trading system?\nLatency Benchmarks\nWhat metrics or methodologies do you use to benchmark and compare the latency of different components (feed handlers, matching engines, strategy modules)?\n11. Observability \u0026amp; Profiling in Low Latency # High-Precision Instrumentation\nWhat strategies do you use to capture and store microsecond-level latency metrics without adding excessive overhead?\nHardware Counter Profiling\nHow can tools like perf, ftrace, or eBPF help you pinpoint performance bottlenecks in kernel space for an HFT application?\n12. Data Storage \u0026amp; Post-Trade Analysis # Tick Database Design\nHow do you store massive volumes of tick-by-tick data for retrospective analysis, and what indexing techniques ensure fast queries?\nPnL \u0026amp; Risk Calculation\nHow do real-time vs. end-of-day risk calculations differ, and why might a market maker need both high-frequency and batch-level analytics?\n13. Team \u0026amp; Process Considerations in HFT # Deployment Strategy\nHow do you handle production deployments in a zero-downtime environment where any delay could cause missed trades?\nCross-Functional Collaboration\nWhat’s the typical collaboration model between quants, traders, and engineers in an HFT firm, and how do you ensure alignment on requirements?\n14. Disaster Recovery \u0026amp; Failover # Exchange Disconnects\nWhen an exchange feed goes down or your connection is lost, how should an HFT system handle failover to backup routes or fallback logic?\nActive/Active vs. Active/Passive\nWhat are the pros and cons of running multiple geographically separated co-location sites in active/active mode vs. active/passive?\n15. Additional Considerations # Tail Latency \u0026amp; Jitter\nHow do you measure and mitigate tail latency (the slowest 99.99th percentile events), which can be just as important as average latency in HFT?\nExchange-Specific Optimizations\nDifferent exchanges may have unique matching rules or order types (e.g., midpoint peg, hidden orders). How do you adapt your strategy engine to exploit these nuances efficiently?\n","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/drafts/advanced-systems-questions/","section":"Drafts","summary":"Advanced Systems Questions # 1. Operating Systems # Process vs. Thread Model [Easy]\nWhen and why would you choose a process-based architecture over a thread-based one? Discuss overhead considerations, memory usage, and concurrency trade-offs.\n","title":"","type":"drafts"},{"content":" Containers In Depth # Today we learn about containers, what are they, where do they come from, how do they work and why would you want to use them?\nWhat is a Container # You\u0026rsquo;ve probably heard of things like Docker or Podman, these are tools to help you run containers. First you create an \u0026lsquo;image\u0026rsquo;, this is created from a file, usually a Dockerfile or similar. A running instance of this image is called a container.\nA container allows you to run software in a fully \u0026lsquo;containerised\u0026rsquo; environment on a host. It has it\u0026rsquo;s own process id\u0026rsquo;s, it\u0026rsquo;s own storage system and can even have it\u0026rsquo;s own limits to memory and cpu.\nVirtual Machines and Hypervisors # Before containers, there were already things that let us run multiple pieces of software separately on the same hardware. These are virtual machines. The hypervisor is a program that runs on the host operating system, that \u0026lsquo;hosts\u0026rsquo; virtual machines. In this way, you could run your software on the same underlying hardware, but in a completely separate way. The hypervisor virtualises the underlying hardware, so that to the host vm, it still seems like it\u0026rsquo;s running on actual hardware.\nAn example hypervisor is VMware, which you could use to host any kind of vm, perhaps a linux vm.\nWhy Containers # The origins of Docker and containers go way back, we could have an entire article here. Originally things started by wanting to run binaries from external sources in a safe way. If you give me some software, I don\u0026rsquo;t just want to run it in my usual way, I want to run it in such a way that if it breaks something or is malicious, then it\u0026rsquo;s only constrained to a particular process. An example of this is a [Jail]1 from FreeBSD.\nOther benefits soon emerged, for example now we could use containers not just to run other potentially malicious software, but just other normal software. This increases hardware utilisation rates. Instead of needing a vm for every application, you can run multiple applications on the same hardware. The [original paper introducing containers to linux]2 has this usecase in mind.\nToday, containers are using to rapidly create and scale workloads across machines globally. Kubernetes emerged as a way to manage containers at scale.\nContainer Comparison # While hypervisors virtualise hardware, containers do not need this. Containers can (and should) be run directly on the metal (Brian Cantrill has a great [talk]3 on this. There is no requirements for extra layers of virtualisation.\nSoftware running without extra layers of virtualisation is generally more efficient and performant, so in the general case, containers are superior.\nInterestingly, when you run an EC2 instance on AWS you are actually getting a VM, not a container. This seems counterintuitive due to the potential performance issues, but also sensible when you consider that customers might want stronger guaranteers around isolation. Microsoft recently released [HyperLight]4, which enables running singular functions on top of a hypervisors. The performance here is pretty crazy, and it\u0026rsquo;s an interesting read. One of the reasons why you\u0026rsquo;d go for a container is that it\u0026rsquo;s more lightweight, but Microsoft seems to have nearly solved the overhead for spinning up new vms. Enabling users to use VMS not only for workloads, but individual functions like lambdas.\nHyperlight is able to create new VMs in one to two milliseconds.\nThis space is a kind of undercurrent to application development, so it will be interesting to see how software deployment practices change over the coming years.\nHow do Containers Work? # Containers are native to linux. If you\u0026rsquo;re running docker and not on linux, then docker is actually running some kind of VM to virtualise a linux operating system so that it can run your containers.\nThe linux requirement exists because there are a number of linux system calls that make containers work. You won\u0026rsquo;t find these in MacOS or Windows.\nChroot # [Chroot]5 means \u0026ldquo;Change Root Directory\u0026rdquo;. This system call changes the root directory of the calling process.\nThis effectively gives us a way to start a process in any location, which is a desired attribute of containers. We don\u0026rsquo;t want every container to have the same starting location. Ideally we want this location to be completely separate from what the rest of the processes can see.\nYou can escape the chroot jail by chrooting to another directory from within your container.\nNamespaces # https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/namespaces.7.html\nThere are global system resources like process ids, networks etc. We want to be able to wrap these so that within the container it appears they have their own isolated instance of this global resource.\nhttps://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/mount_namespaces.7.html\nhttps://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/pivot_root.2.html\nCgroups # https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/cgroups.7.html\nPreviously we created ways to isolated the file system and resources, cgroups allow us to place hardware / memory limits on processes.\nExtras # System Call Blacklisting https://docs.docker.com/engine/security/seccomp/#significant-syscalls-blocked-by-the-default-profile Thread Pulling # Can I run a Windows Container on Linux, and vice-versa?\nWindows containers require the windows kernel. Linux can be run on windows using docker desktop, which provides a linux vm.\nHow can I run a operating system container different to the host on linux?\nUbuntu etc is just a set of files. The containers share the same kernel, so can only use the same system calls.\nContainers built on x86_64 will not run on an arm os.\nRefs\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD_jail\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nhttps://lwn.net/Articles/199643/\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFIEH3vXPw\t\u0026ldquo;Run containers on bare metal already! - Brian Cantrill\u0026rdquo;\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nhttps://opensource.microsoft.com/blog/2024/11/07/introducing-hyperlight-virtual-machine-based-security-for-functions-at-scale\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\nhttps://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/chroot.2.html\u0026#160;\u0026#x21a9;\u0026#xfe0e;\n","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/drafts/containers-in-depth/","section":"Drafts","summary":"Containers In Depth # Today we learn about containers, what are they, where do they come from, how do they work and why would you want to use them?\n","title":"","type":"drafts"},{"content":"-\u0026ndash;\ntitle: \u0026ldquo;Why C is Faster than Python\u0026rdquo;\ndate: 2023-04-22T07:19:31+10:30\ndraft: True\nEverybody knows: C is faster than Python.\nBut why is this? How can one language be faster than another? If the instructions tell the computer to do exactly the same thing, how can the run-time be different?\nLet\u0026rsquo;s unpack this.\nHere, I have c code that loops 100,000,000 times. On my computer, it runs in about 0.1 seconds.\n#include \u0026lt;stdio.h\u0026gt; #include \u0026lt;time.h\u0026gt; int main() { int operation_count = 100000000; struct timespec start_time, end_time; clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, \u0026amp;start_time); for (int i = 0; i \u0026lt; operation_count; i++) { ; }; clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, \u0026amp;end_time); double secs_passed = (end_time.tv_sec - start_time.tv_sec) + (end_time.tv_nsec - start_time.tv_nsec) / 1000000000.0; printf(\u0026#34;Time taken: %.2f seconds\\n\u0026#34;, secs_passed); } The equivalent, in Python, looks like this.\nimport time start = time.time() for i in range(100000000): pass end = time.time() print(f\u0026#34;elapsed time: {end - start:.2f} seconds\u0026#34;) On my computer, this runs in about 2 seconds.\nWhy is this the case? How can there be about a 20x speed increase by using c? If this is the case, why aren\u0026rsquo;t all applications just written in c?\nWhy C is Faster than Python # ","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/c_and_python/","section":"Writing","summary":"-–\ntitle: “Why C is Faster than Python”\ndate: 2023-04-22T07:19:31+10:30\ndraft: True\nEverybody knows: C is faster than Python.\nBut why is this? How can one language be faster than another? If the instructions tell the computer to do exactly the same thing, how can the run-time be different?\n","title":"","type":"posts"},{"content":"","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/categories/","section":"Categories","summary":"","title":"Categories","type":"categories"},{"content":"","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/drafts/","section":"Drafts","summary":"","title":"Drafts","type":"drafts"},{"content":"Last updated: July 2026\nI’m currently volunteering with Hartwig Medical Foundation Australia, helping build software for exploring cancer-genomics data.\nOutside that, I’m spending my time learning more about distributed systems, machine learning and quantitative markets. I usually do this by building small projects rather than only reading about them.\nI’m also training for the Melbourne Marathon in October, with the goal of running under 3:15.\nTash and I are getting married in Sydney later that month.\nThis page was inspired by Derek Sivers’ Now page.\n","externalUrl":null,"permalink":"/now/","section":"James Fricker","summary":"Last updated: July 2026\nI’m currently volunteering with Hartwig Medical Foundation Australia, helping build software for exploring cancer-genomics data.\nOutside that, I’m spending my time learning more about distributed systems, machine learning and quantitative markets. I usually do this by building small projects rather than only reading about them.\n","title":"Now","type":"page"}]