This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
Intro#
James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today’s episode is episode 52, which means it’s been about a year of Graduate Theory episodes. We’ve had an episode come out every Tuesday for pretty much a year now. It’s been a wild journey. There have been so many guests on the show, so much knowledge shared and so many learnings—things that I’ve learnt myself.
I don’t know what the next steps look like. Perhaps we’ll do a season two, but what I am sure of is that I’m going to try to find a way to summarise a lot of the content we’ve had and the ideas shared on the show. If you want to keep up to date with that and find out exactly what we’re working on, please go to the description, subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter and you’ll hear all about what is coming up soon.
Without further ado, I want to introduce this last episode. This is a really personal episode. I flipped the tables a little bit and got interviewed by a friend of mine, Joe Wehbe, who you may remember. I interviewed him for the first episode of the podcast, so it was great to have him back on the show, interviewing me and asking what I learnt, what my favourite moments of the podcast were, and for some general reflections around starting podcasts, the things I learnt and how the podcast has affected my life.
Without further ado, we’ll pass it over to the episode, but I just want to thank everyone who listens to Graduate Theory. It has been an amazing journey so far and, from the bottom of my heart, I just want to say a big thank you for listening to the show. It does mean a lot to me that I’m able to share this with you and that you take the time to listen to the kinds of things I have to say. I feel really grateful, so I just want to say a massive thank you. But that’s enough from me. Let’s get down to the episode. Please enjoy.
Joey Intro#
James: I guess I wanted to reflect on what we’ve done over almost one year. It’s probably over a year, including preparation for the first episodes, but I think it would be nice to recap, given that 52 is a reasonable milestone. It’s been an interesting year: a lot of learnings, both in and out of the podcast, a lot of growth and a lot of lessons. So maybe we can introduce you. For those who have missed your previous appearances on the pod, maybe you want to share your quick bio.
Joe: Thanks, Jay, for having me back. For those who haven’t seen me on the podcast before, I’m Joe Wehbe. I am a writer and a podcaster myself. I’ve done a bunch of other things—I’ll save everyone a long story—but I’ve studied psychology, done non-profit stuff in Nepal, done a bit of real estate and also stuff in education. I love anything about creativity and a lot of the same topics you talk about on the podcast, like careers, meaningful careers and impact. All those sorts of things hover around the same conversations, and often the books I write are probably relevant to that.
James: I’m keen to do a bit of a reverse interview. Is that what they call it, a reverse interview? That’s what professional podcasters would call it, something like that.
Joe: You can invent it. You can coin that. You heard it here first.
James: I’d love to dive into some of the history of the pod, and we can kick it off.
Reflecting on One Year#
Joe: Congratulations on a year for you, but I’m sure it’s been a bit longer than that with the preparation. How does it feel? Because you’re Mr Consistency in our little community of podcasters, James Fricker. You don’t miss a week, unless I’m mistaken, so 52 episodes on the dot. How does it feel?
James: I think it feels good. When I first started, I’m not sure what I expected, but I feel good that I’ve managed to come this far. A lot of people, when I say I have a podcast and then say I’ve done 50 episodes, go, “Oh, a podcast. Cool. Fifty? Oh, that’s really good.” So I’m proud of that. Obviously, I’ve had a lot of help and support along the way, but consistency is a hard nut to crack. It’s quite easy to start, but doing it for a long time is quite hard.
I’m very proud of that. In other projects I’ve done in the past, that’s probably been the one thing I’ve struggled with. It’s easier to think of an idea and start it, but consistency is the one thing that lets you down. So I’m proud that it’s been a year and very consistent, and I’m happy with how it’s going. I think it’s been a pretty good learning experience for me and for the people listening as well.
I think I’ve been able to provide a platform for some very interesting people who perhaps don’t have a big platform themselves. Not that Graduate Theory is a big platform, but it just allows them to get there.
Joe: It’s very big for someone who has no platform.
James: These people have great messages and they often don’t get shown to a certain demographic, so it’s been cool to highlight that.
Expectations when Starting#
Joe: That’s a very mature and selfless reflection, I think. Did you have an expectation at all when you started? I never even knew, to be honest. I was talking to you when you started, of course, but did you expect you were just trialling it, or did you think you would go this far, or did you have, “I want to at least get to this point”? I’m very curious.
James: I don’t really know. The answer to that question has probably changed a lot for me and continues to fluctuate. At certain points I think, “It’d be cool to have this as a side business, have all this stuff and make it a whole massive operation.” That would be really cool. Or is it just more of a side thing where I interview someone every week and it’s a bit more chilled? I’ve fluctuated between those quite a bit during the process.
Before this episode, I was thinking back to what led up to even starting the pod. I remember—and I think you would remember this too—I had an Instagram page maybe 18 months ago, for probably four months or so. That was a similar thing where I was asking, “What is the expectation here?” I probably didn’t really have one. It was just that I wanted to share and contribute, and I guess potentially turn it into something more substantial. Perhaps it’s to my own undoing that there isn’t a clear thing there, but I think it’s been valuable regardless.
Joe: I remember that very well. I guess it’s never the end of the world. It’s funny when you mention the fluctuation; I think it’s such a relatable thing for podcasters because it can be the most casual thing in the world, but a lot of things also come through it. One thing you must have enjoyed, I’m sure, is the people you reached out to and connected with. A lot of podcasters say you don’t necessarily get to meet the same people without a podcast. It’s an easy excuse and a very digestible ask. It squashes some objections people might normally have to just having a conversation with someone.
Standout People or Episodes#
Joe: Who are those people? Do you think you’ve found a community? You don’t have to say me—I’m here, James. You’re already on the list; the audience knows. But apart from me, does anyone stand out in particular?
James: On the general point about having access to interesting people, I would extend that to interesting things. When I started was probably when Earlywork started to gain a lot of traction in the Australian startup space, so that was quite cool. Next Chapter also started around a similar time, I think. Access to these communities is an example: I probably wouldn’t have access to, or know, certain people inside those places if I didn’t have the pod, so that’s been cool.
In terms of interesting people, Adam Gaha is a great example. He’s very well connected. You introduced me to him, and then I’ve subsequently introduced him to other people. It’s been cool to have access to him, and it’s not even just for my benefit. People who know me can also have access to some of these people.
It’s probably hard to narrow it down to a shortlist of people, but generally it’s been quite interesting to hear from different people, see what they’re doing and see the kinds of places where interesting people are working. I think it’s broadened my horizons. I probably couldn’t narrow it down to knowing a specific person, if that makes sense.
Joe: A lot of the value you get from conversations can be very intangible. You get a lot of value from talking to any of the people you mentioned, or a lot of the other guests you’ve had on, but it can be very hard to pinpoint specific things. It soaks into people on a much deeper layer. Naval says this about listening to podcasts and that sort of thing: it’s not totally conscious learning; it’s more of a soaking-in effect, so it’s very hard to pinpoint.
I don’t want to project my experience onto you, but you generally just feel, “Wow, I’m learning so much. This is very stimulating.” I think it makes you think a bit differently at times. It’s very natural, the same way you would talk to anyone and softly learn from them.
You’ve had some bumper episodes, that’s for sure. For me, the Gaha one was a very, very good episode. Obviously, Luke and I love the Gilly one; I’ve listened to that a couple of times. I know I haven’t even talked to him in that way, but you hear him on an episode. I think it’s very true that you gave a lot of people like that a chance to tell their story and share some of their insights. That’s something you should be very proud of, and the beauty of it is that you did it, so they’re up there forever.
James: There are many episodes that I enjoyed doing. Those two, definitely. The Gilly one had an impact on lots of people, probably more than I expected, which is pretty cool to facilitate. There are many episodes that I think are underrated, where I personally had a great time and learnt a lot. The Michael Dixon one, for example, was really good.
Personal Development Through the Podcast#
Joe: The very recent one was a good episode. How do you think you personally developed as the podcast went on? What key areas are different about you now versus when you started?
James: A few things. On an interviewing level, I think I learnt quite a bit. The first one we did was with you. It was a good interview, but I think I’ve progressed a lot further since then. I’ve experimented with different approaches and landed on a good way of doing things. When we were first starting, it was like, “I’ve got no idea how this works. Have a crack and see what happens.”
Joe: I would have made you very nervous as well.
James: You’re a strong character; it’s not easy. There are a few points here. In the actual interviewing, there were periods when I was very Q&A. I’ve come back to being more conversational in recent times. I’ve moved between different approaches to the actual interview and landed somewhere that’s quite good, which is a more relaxed way of doing things: no intro, just start chatting. That has generally worked the best.
I also remember having Darren Fleming on. At the end of the interview I said, “Hey man, do you know anyone else I can chat to?” I know Darren very well. He gave me these two guys’ phone numbers: Oscar Trimboli and Ishan, both of whom I’ve interviewed. But when he gave me their phone numbers, I thought, “I have to actually call this guy.” I was scared out of my mind. I think everyone has had at least some level of that experience where you’re like, “I really don’t want to call this number.”
In terms of guest outreach, many people have said no to coming on the show, so dealing with that has been interesting. I think it has helped me reach out to people outside the pod. Seeing the access I can have to people through Graduate Theory, which is relatively unknown, really showed me how reaching out allows you to speak to a lot of different people. You don’t necessarily need a podcast or something to chat to them on. People are generally quite receptive. Obviously, it’s hard to reach out to people with big profiles, but there are certain people who don’t have big profiles—maybe it’s the CEO of your company or people like that—and you can get reasonably far if you want to speak to them and ask them interesting things.
Advice for People When Creating a Podcast#
Joe: Do you have any advice or reflections for people who might not have a podcast but want to reach out to someone? Reaching out internally is a big one—leadership at the company you’re at is something I hear about a lot—or just someone whose work you find interesting. I might be fishing in the wrong spot here, but are there any lessons or takeaways you’d have?
James: I did a reasonable amount of research into cold emails, so I have a template that I use. If you’re reaching out to enough people, you want to have something templated, but you also want to have a specific ask and a specific reason why you’re reaching out to this particular person. If you just email everyone the exact same thing, obviously that’s not going to be very effective.
You want to tailor it to the person. I start by trying to mention something recent that they did. Usually, I’ll look at their LinkedIn to see if they’ve posted or done anything recently, comment on that, introduce myself and then say why I’m reaching out. In my case, it would be about the podcast and the avenue through which I found them. I might include some social proof, such as saying that I’ve previously interviewed some of their friends and naming those friends, so they know I’m not just some very strange person and that I have some credibility.
Then I would say, “Here are three things I want to speak to you about.” I would already have looked at their profile and the things they’ve done to see what I actually want to ask this person about and how I envisage the interview. Then I would put some kind of link at the end and say, “If you’re interested, here’s the calendar link,” or wait for them to respond and say they’re keen, then send them the link. That’s generally how I would do it. I think you want some sort of social proof and to be fairly specific about why you’re reaching out to them. That’s very important.
Joe: I agree. That’s very interesting on the podcast side. What about the theme of the podcast, which was the graduate-level experience or thereabouts? Were there any big changes on that side of things for you, such as how you thought about your own career or things to do differently? I know work isn’t in a little container and it impacts the rest of life too, but around the theme of your career and work, were there any changes?
Changes in Life Approach#
Joe: You’re at the same company. It’s not as if you’ve changed roles, or anything that I’m aware of. Maybe you’ve changed internally, but were there any real, noticeable changes in the way you approach the working part of life, if that makes sense?
James: One of the biggest things I’ve learnt through interviewing people is probably about startups. Before I started the pod, I don’t think I’d ever really delved into this world or heard much about it. I’ve interviewed a number of CEOs, like Andrew, so that has been interesting.
Even in terms of how someone might craft their career over a ten-year period, people talk about the optimal way to structure things: when it’s a good idea to do this or that. One way I’ve seen people do it is to work in corporate, get into a good graduate programme for two years or maybe more, then join a startup. You try to pick a good one that’s going places. If it goes places, that’s great; if not, you’ve had corporate experience, so it’s not too risky. That’s a story I’ve heard many times.
Joe: The logic is that you’ve got enough experience in terms of skills, and a track record of working in a certain type of role, so it’s easier for you to get another job. Is that right?
James: That’s right. Going straight from university to a startup is hard, at least from what I’ve heard, because there’s so much to learn. It’s like being thrown into the deep end of the pool: you need to be able to swim a little so you don’t drown. That’s probably one reason you’d want to have some experience first.
The second would be that, if the startup fails for whatever reason, you have some proof that you’re sensible and have worked at a good place before. It’s less risky if you then go back there or do a similar thing. That’s definitely one.
I can’t point to any specifics—and I’ll go and find these—but there have been a few times when someone has shared questions they’ll ask a company before joining, how to know whether the company will be a good fit, or what questions to ask during the interview process. In quite a few episodes, people have gone, “Ask this, this, this and this. Here are four or five questions.” I think compiling a list would be interesting and provide some good ideas for things to ask at these different stages.
It’s hard to think about things like how you know whether a company will be a good fit for you, or what the process looks like when you’re looking for your next role. I’ve learnt a lot about how different people have navigated this, and that’s been quite interesting and useful to me.
Joe: I remember the episode with the guy at McKinsey, Cheran. I think that one had a lot of very practical advice for that world, about summer internships and internships in general. When you’re at university and looking to get roles in that neck of the woods, it was a hell of a process. That guy was very proactive about it.
James: When I was at uni, I had no idea how that kind of thing even worked because I wasn’t friends with anyone doing that process. There was no one around me whom I could see doing it. It was very interesting to hear the level of detail and thought that goes into preparing for those things, including the interviews. There’s almost a whole culture around getting jobs at these places. A lot of it was unknown to me, so it was very interesting to hear how it all works.
Joe: It’s a fascinating thing. The other thing I was curious about, because we were talking about it before this episode, is: given it’s been a year, if you were to start over, is there anything you would have done differently?
Things I Would Do Differently#
Joe: Looking back on this journey, is there anything you think about?
James: One of the things I haven’t done as well as I would have liked is marketing the pod through social media and other places. There have been periods when I’ve done that well and the pod has grown a decent amount. The consistency of episodes has been there, but the consistency of the marketing, social media posts and so on hasn’t been there the entire time. If I could rewind, I would try to be more consistent in those areas. I think that would have brought more eyeballs to the pod.
I think part of it comes down to the clarity we were talking about earlier. It would have helped if I’d had a clear idea of exactly what I was aiming to achieve. That would have made a lot of these things easier to justify in my head. I was moving between an enterprise pod and a casual pod on the weekend. For one month, I’m like, “Let’s post every day, twice a day. Let’s go really hard.” Then the next week, it’s like, “This is just a chilled thing. We don’t even need to do it. No biggie.” So the consistency on that side probably wasn’t there.
Maybe, in hindsight, I could have sent more DMs. Perhaps I didn’t push the guest outreach enough. I feel I could have reached out to more high-profile people and received some noes. Reflecting now, I feel I could have tried some more long shots. I got some pretty good guests on, but there are levels to the game, and I could have thrown in a few more ambitious attempts.
Joe: Are there any big names on the dream list—the theoretical dream guest?
James: Someone whose name has come up a little bit is Malcolm Turnbull. He’s been on a few different ones. I’m not sure if I did end up emailing someone. I can’t remember; maybe I did. I think someone found his LinkedIn page and sent me an email address associated with it, but it wasn’t his email. It was someone else’s, and it didn’t have Malcolm or anything in the address. I think I may have emailed that but didn’t hear back. Whatever. He’d be one example.
The co-founders of Atlassian would be another example: these kinds of people who are international. It would have been interesting because, at a macro level, if they say no, it doesn’t really matter. You don’t know how far you can go until you’re getting those noes. Perhaps I could have gone harder there and tried more of those, and then I would have known I was really pushing the limits.
Joe: It sounds like you needed a bit more David Goggins while you were doing outreach, maybe. Although you’re a man who holds himself to very high standards, I think you’ve done a good job. On paper, it always makes sense: if someone says no, what’s the problem? It’s not the end of the world. But perceived rejection is still another thing entirely.
James: I think it’s almost worse when people say yes and then don’t follow through. That’s more frustrating. It’s like, “Why are we stuck here?”
Joe: You feel like you’ve got something and make plans.
James: You’ve already celebrated the yes, at least.
Joe: At least they responded. I think of my real estate days, where you felt like you had someone buying a home. That meant a lot of money; there were real stakes, not just someone agreeing to go on the podcast and then falling through. It’s the biggest roller-coaster experience. It makes everything else seem very small in comparison. I guess that’s why it’s a bit antifragile in that way, if you can get used to that sort of thing. But it’s a bloody world. That’s why you have to become pretty bloody stoic. It’s not always a fun ride.
James: Obviously, a pod isn’t like running a company, but I think there are some parallels. Maybe that’s stretching the comparison too far.
Joe: Any project like this is like a business in a way, so it has similar dynamics, even if its complexity is different. It’s a different type of thing, but you can’t get away from those moving parts.
The Plan#
Joe: What’s the plan from here? You’ve done 52 episodes and completed the year.
James: We’ll see. Season two is a possibility at this stage. I’d say it’s 50–50. It’s October now; we’ll leave it until the end of the year and see how I feel next year.
If I did come back to the pod, I think season two would likely have a slightly different theme. Things like this have to follow my own interests on some level. Starting work after university—and the university experience itself—aren’t as interesting to me as they were last year. If I were going to do more podcasting, maybe it wouldn’t be called Graduate Theory, or maybe it would. I don’t know.
I’d be more focused on early- to mid-career topics, and maybe even more focused on my own career path. For example, I do engineering at work, so how do you go from a mid-level to a senior-level engineer? How do you become a CTO or something like that? Those questions would be more interesting to me than how you get your first job after university.
I think that’s the only thing you can talk about for so long. Part of the reason I’m keen to stop now is that I feel we’ve covered that topic to a decent degree. With a lot of the guests I’ve had on, we speak about more general things than that anyway. Most of the episodes aren’t really aimed at uni students; it’s definitely more general life advice, perhaps aimed at a younger audience. So there’s that.
Joe: It’s something Gilly said to me when we talked about a similar theme. Being alive in the eighties and so on, he noticed when the concept of career coaches started becoming mainstream or popping up, and how quickly the main flavour turned from career coaching to life coaching. If you think about it, life coaching came from that because careers are connected to everything else. That was a big theme in Gilly’s episode—and in heaps of people’s episodes—so naturally it always jumps around related topics.
Uni is the same. Uni is normally connected to a career, in most cases. When you’re at uni, you can focus on uni, but there’s only so much you can optimise the uni experience when it’s really trying to serve something else. You’re not over-optimising the uni experience; you’re thinking about where it goes. So it’s quite natural.
I always think it’s almost a good sign when you feel you’re outgrowing something, if that’s the language you’d use. If you’re not outgrowing something, maybe it’s limiting you. It depends, but naturally you should evolve. You shouldn’t get stuck in one thing. In theory, a business evolves. They say that about Berkshire Hathaway and Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett: what worked for Berkshire Hathaway in one decade didn’t work in the next. They keep reinventing themselves. Sporting teams are like that, right?
As someone who’s watched you along this journey, I think it’s been really great to watch. Hopefully, I speak for a lot of the other people who’ve listened and enjoyed watching alongside as well. It’s very rewarding—and easy to underappreciate—watching someone who’s very honestly and open-mindedly going on the journey. Again, this is just my reflection of you, but it’s not, “I have all the answers. I have everything.” It’s very open: there are cool people; I’m a regular, relatable person interested in making the most of my career and my time; I want to be intentional about it; what can I learn from these people around me; what is out there?
I would say it’s just so relatable. I think it’s interesting for people still watching at this point that maybe they feel themselves evolving too. Who knows? They’re complex things, right? You can’t put one pin in it, and if you could, it’s probably not the best thing. When you talk about clarity, I think about that too. Sometimes it’s really good. I always think of clarity as a set of circles, like a ripple. It’s a continual journey, ring by ring and layer by layer, and I don’t think it ever ends. That’s from someone who’s a little bit older. I don’t know if I can pull the age card here. Sorry, that’s my rambling.
James: I agree with what you’re saying. There’s the idea of seasons: some things are around for a season, and then you do something else. It’s not necessarily bad to do something for a while and then do something else. It’s all in pursuit of enjoying the experience of life. I think it’s good to do that every now and then.
It’s been cool. I’m not some super-fortunate person. There is some element of fortune, perhaps, but I’m not really special in any way. Many people could do something similar to a lot of the things I’ve done and the sort of journey I’ve had. Hopefully, my experience shows that things like this are within reach and people can actually do them now. The beauty of the internet is that there are no real barriers to this kind of thing. There’s no barrier to asking your company’s boss out for coffee. Anyone can do that.
It’s been very cool. I feel very fortunate that I’ve been able to speak to so many interesting people who have given me their time and their lessons.
Advice for Graduates#
Joe: One of the last things I want to make sure I throw in there, because you’re probably too modest to say it yourself, is that the word “unspecial” is tricky. I understand that you mean relatable, and that there are a lot of people out there in circumstances that aren’t too different, but I think there’s something very special about what you’ve done.
I’ve told you this story—and sorry to bring it back to Gilly once again—but he explained that, because he’s about 75, he has people from his year group whom he went to school with more than 50 years ago. For whatever reason, one of his schoolmates Googled his name and found this long interview he was in. His schoolmate watched the whole interview and said to Michael, “I couldn’t put it down. I couldn’t stop watching. It was so engaging, just learning about your story.” He insisted that all the people in their year watch the interview. I know they probably use email or something, people of that age. He said, “Everyone has to watch this interview. Look at everything Michael achieved,” and so on.
I remember that episode. Luke and I talked about it, and I know people going through very difficult times in their careers who found episodes like that very useful. I wanted to mention that because things like that might not look significant from the outside sometimes, but there have been a lot of them. There might be more you’re not aware of that have been very special things to do for people while you’re humbly looking to enhance your own wisdom. I hope you and the other people who’ve been along for the journey appreciate things like that, because that’s very special.
James: That’s what it’s all about: stories like that. A lot of friends of ours watched that episode, as you said, and it had an impact on them. People have said things to me about other episodes, such as, “This one was really helpful during this period of my life and really helped me do this thing,” or whatever. That’s quite cool. I’m able to have fun speaking to people who are hopefully having fun speaking to me, and we’re able to share a conversation that helps other people. I think it’s a win-win-win.
Joe: It really is. I feel like turning your own question back on you at this point, around the advice you would give to young graduates—or, unless I’ve butchered it, I believe the question is what you’d tell an earlier version of yourself. Not to put pressure on you, mate, but you’ve done 52 episodes. You’ve talked to some incredible people, including Joey in episode one—really high-calibre people—with more than 52 hours of insight, probably, plus everything in between. So, no pressure, James. Distil all that into a single question to assess your worth. Seriously, what’s top of mind right now as your distilled answer to that question?
James: Firstly, it’s hard to sum up all the episodes. There are many little pieces of advice that are valuable but just wouldn’t fit. I guess one main point comes from my experience starting things like the pod or the Instagram page we spoke about. I’d had the desire to do things like that for some time before I did them. On reflection, part of the reason I didn’t do them earlier was that I was weighed down in some way by social expectations and what other people were going to think of me. It probably wasn’t even that I recognised that; I probably just stopped caring and decided I was going to do it regardless.
That’s a big thing. So much of how we live and the things we do are defined by our social group. It’s the super-clichéd idea about the five people you spend the most time with. For me, the whole process of the Instagram page leading to the pod was around the same time that I was connecting a lot with you, and The Constant Student was around at a similar time. Seeing all these people do stuff like that made it feel like this was just the normal behaviour of people: people do these things. That almost created space for me to do those things.
Before then, I wanted these things but didn’t really feel comfortable owning them. I’d be chatting to someone and we just wouldn’t talk about this whole side of me or the things I was interested in. A really great experience for me has been changing that. One of my biggest learnings through all of this has been about the things I’m interested in but used not to share with everyone.
There were so many things. I used to read lots, but no one really knew that I read any books. I may have told a couple of people, but not my closest friends. I would do weird things like read my news on an RSS reader, which is very nerdy, but I never told anyone because I didn’t want to be seen as the weird guy who does that stuff. There’s a whole list of things. Early on at university, I tried to start a Shopify dropshipping business and didn’t tell anyone because I didn’t want other people to know I was into that kind of thing.
That was part of my life for a long time. The pod was the first time I posted on LinkedIn, telling everyone, “This is what I’m going to do.” It was maybe a bit nerve-racking at the time, but now I feel much more integrated, for lack of a better word. When I’m chatting to people now, I don’t have to hide this whole part of me that’s interested in all this different stuff.
That has been one of my biggest learnings and something I’m grateful for. If someone were facing a similar challenge, I think they should find ways to overcome that feeling, whether by doing something in public or otherwise. If you’re hiding yourself in that way, you should try to find ways not to do that, because it’s a big shame when you’re hiding yourself and your interests. I would even say to go out and find people with whom it’s okay to speak about things like that, because that will make it a lot easier.
Joe: Beautiful answer. What more could I add to that story?
James: I’m seriously grateful for this whole journey. Perhaps that’s the journey of life: peeling back the layers of the onion, in some way. I’m grateful that I had this experience early in my life, so I can now bring my whole self to work, home and wherever else it might be, and it’s not something I have to hide. I’m very grateful. It’s been a very transformative experience for me.
Conclusion#
Joe: Thanks for sharing it with us all, and for letting people like me be part of it and be on the podcast. On behalf of all your lovely, wise, intelligent and caring guests, thank you. I think that’s a beautiful message to end on. It’s so valuable and important, and I really don’t have anything to add. It’s incredibly well said and well intentioned. You can tell you really feel it: it’s much more than words, and it’s something you really mean and have learnt on a deep level.
James: Thank you, man. I appreciate your support throughout this whole journey, and there are many others—too many to name—who have been instrumental in this as well. I want to thank everyone who’s been involved in the journey. It’s been a wild ride. We’ll see whether season two comes back, and if it does, I’ll be stoked to share it with everyone.
Joe: I hope there’s some form of something from you that everyone can enjoy.
James: That’s the plan. We’re working on a small product to summarise a lot of the content, at least partially. It’s hard to do it justice, but I’ll try my best. Keep an eye out for that.
Joe: Is there anything you need to communicate about where people can find you, reach out to you or anything like that?
James: I think the first link in the description should be the newsletter, and that’ll be the best place to keep up to date with the goings-on. Otherwise, you can look at the Graduate Theory website. Graduate Theory on LinkedIn is probably the best place to catch it on social media, and YouTube as well. Those would be the best places to keep up to date.
Outro#
James: We’ve reached the end of this Graduate Theory episode. If you haven’t already, please subscribe to the Graduate Theory newsletter. That’s where you’re going to find out everything that’s going on after this episode. I really look forward to seeing you there and letting you know what’s coming next.
I want to thank you again for listening to this show. It means a lot to me that you’ve listened this far into the episode. Thanks so much, and hopefully this has been valuable for you. It’s certainly been valuable for me. Until next time, we’ll see you around.