This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
Intro#
James: Good morning and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today’s guest is a podcast host, author and keynote speaker with over 30 years of experience in operations, marketing, and sales. He now works with organisations across the world, teaching them how to be better listeners and bringing us impact beyond words.
Please welcome the deep listener himself, Oscar Trimboli. Oscar, welcome to the show.
Oscar: James, I’m looking forward to listening to your questions. I’ll be curious to listen to the questions we can’t hear from the audience as well, because a lot of the time it’s what’s not said that makes the difference between good conversations and great conversations.
James: I’m so interested to dive into all of this with you.
How did Oscar find listening?#
James: Listening is one of those skills that I previously had no idea you could even have. My first question, Oscar, is about this world of listening: how did you end up in it?
As we’ve said, most people have never heard of improving their listening. How did you end up in this world of listening?
Oscar: I think about it in three ways. The first is that when I was 13, I basically had a werewolf jaw—a very protruding jaw. Most people who get braces have them for one or two years; I had braces for five years.
I never wanted to draw attention to myself. How do you avoid that when you’re talking to someone? You ask them questions, and the attention goes back to them. I wasn’t aware that I was listening well in those early days, but it was a defensive strategy for me.
At my high school, we had 13 different nationalities, with people from Asia and Eastern Europe. We used to play an Italian card game, but I couldn’t speak any other language. The Argentinians would form a team and speak Spanish, and the Polish teams would speak Polish. Occasionally, a team would be a player short. Because I didn’t speak any other language, I had to get very good at reading body language. I learnt to notice what happened to people’s eyes and eyebrows when they got a particular set of cards and figure it out.
The turning point came in a budget-setting meeting at Microsoft between Singapore, Seattle and Sydney. At the 20-minute mark, my vice president looked me straight in the eye in the Sydney boardroom and said, “Oscar, I need to see you immediately after this meeting.”
I switched off, James. From that point on, all I could think about was how many weeks’ salary I had left in my bank account. When Tracy said that, I thought I was getting fired. The meeting finished, Tracy asked me to close the door, and I was sitting at one end of a very long boardroom table.
She asked me to come and sit next to her. As I walked along this long boardroom table, she said, “You have no idea what you did at the 20-minute mark, do you?” The only thing going through my head was, “Great. I’m getting fired, and I have no idea what I did.”
She sat me down, looked me straight in the eye and said, “At the 20-minute mark, you changed the way the room listened to itself. If you could code the way you listen, you could change the world.” Despite Tracy saying something so profound, the only thing going through my head was, “I’m not getting fired.” I didn’t think about what she had said. I literally zoned out because I was so relieved that I wasn’t fired.
A week and a half later, the finance director, Brian, asked me to come to the budget-setting meeting for Australia and audit his listening. I said, “Brian, you’ve been talking to Tracy. I got a $32 million uplift in my budget, and I have to figure out how to deliver it. I haven’t got time for this little listening caper. Can I just go and figure it out?”
He said, “Let me make it simple for you. You are coming to the meeting, and you will audit my listening.”
Here’s a tip: if you’re a graduate who isn’t good at maths, make friends with the finance department. If you come from the arts or another area, partnering with finance is one of the most influential things you can do in the workplace, because they are the people who pay salaries. More importantly, they’re the people who approve business cases.
I had to sit down and watch Brian listen. He did an okay job, but I was curious: there were nine people in the meeting, and only three spoke. I thought, “He’s not listening to everybody.” He also asked very long questions.
Here’s another tip for listeners: if you ask a question with more than eight words, it’s a biased question. In fact, it isn’t even a question; it’s a statement, despite the inflection in your voice at the end.
Since then, I’ve been on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners in the world before I leave the planet. That’s how it all started.
James: That’s a great story. What you’re doing is special and exciting: you’re bringing light to a skill that we can all improve.
How distractions impact listening#
James: When you’re sitting down with Brian—or with the people you coach today—what do you look for when helping someone improve their listening? What’s your process?
Oscar: There are five levels of listening. The first thing you want to do as a listener is not focus on the speaker. Listening starts by listening to yourself.
You might have a whole lot of noise in your head about the last meeting, the next meeting, what you need to eat for lunch or what you didn’t eat for breakfast: “I haven’t had enough coffee. Gee, Oscar talks slowly. I wish he’d hurry up and get to the point.” There’s a lot of noise going through your head.
The first of the five levels is listening to yourself. We’ve researched more than 1,410 people and tracked them for nearly four years. The number-one barrier to people’s listening is electronic notifications, whether they’re from a mobile phone, desktop computer or tablet. Whether you’re on a Mac or PC, or an iPhone or Android, you can push the button that says, “Stop notifications while I’m in a conversation,” meaning a meeting.
This is easy to say but very difficult to do, because many people are addicted to the red dots, the buzz, the bing, the Slack channel, the Teams message and the email notification. I’ve worked in the technology industry. I know that the research behind the app industry was derived from research into slot machines, or poker machines, in Las Vegas.
They hired psychologists to figure out how to keep people mindlessly pressing the button and putting more money into the poker machines. The app industry adapted that research by putting red dots on devices and making notifications blink to get your attention.
That fires dopamine into your system. It’s the drug that makes the whole world beautiful when you’re in love. A red dot fires off the same thing, and you think, “Somebody wants to talk to me.” But it means you’re unavailable for the conversation you’re in right now.
If you’re a medical professional or an emergency responder, please don’t switch your notifications off; that’s your job. The same applies if you have patients to see or are at the end of a manufacturing line ensuring people’s safety. For everybody else working with computers, switch your notifications off. When I say that, many people feel like a drug addict whose drugs I’ve just taken away.
Distractions and Notifications#
Oscar: What’s your relationship with notifications?
James: Like most people, I find it tricky to switch my phone off and put it aside. Over the last few days, I’ve resorted to turning it off completely before I go to sleep, charging it in another room and then starting my work without it. I usually don’t turn it on until lunchtime, because that’s what I have to do to keep the phone away from me. As soon as it goes on and I’ve looked at it, I’m almost locked in. It’s difficult to look once and then put it away for a few hours.
I agree about the phone and all notifications. Even when you’re on a work call, your email is there and the Teams chat is open. On some level, these are all like slot machines: someone sends an email and—bang—I feel I have to read it straight away or the world’s going to end. Having these things around can affect you when you’re in a meeting with someone.
Oscar: Here’s your challenge: go to the system settings on your computer and switch those notifications off as well. Do you find yourself more productive now that you’re not addicted to the phone and the reactive behaviour that comes from responding quickly to what’s on it? What has your experience been over the last week?
James: In the mornings, I find it easier to work and concentrate. Before I started doing this, I kept my phone next to my bed. I’d wake up with it right there, spend 20 minutes looking through Instagram, then go on YouTube, Facebook or any number of social media sites. If I started my day that way, I felt flat for the rest of the day.
When someone asked me to do something that required effort or that I didn’t want to do—even a normal household job like taking the bins out—I struggled to find the motivation. I just wanted to look at my phone. If I started the morning like that, it carried through the entire day.
If I can delay it, that reduces the impact. I’m more able to interact with the world and enjoy regular activities without the constant dopamine from all those apps attacking my brain.
Oscar: Use the technology. Don’t let the technology use you.
James: That’s great advice. It’s easy for that technology to take control. You mentioned poker machines, and there’s also that Netflix show whose name I’ve forgotten. When I watched it, I was amazed that even the people who run these companies don’t let their children use the apps because they know the impact they can have—not only on dopamine but also on people’s opinions. A major theme of the show was how you can end up in echo chambers. These apps can affect your whole life to a large degree.
With listening in particular, it’s important to be conscious. We spoke before the episode about being conscious while listening to someone and as you go through your day. Not having those notifications around is important. Is being conscious something you focus on when people are listening?
The 5 Levels of Listening#
James: We’ve spoken about level one of the five levels of listening, which is listening to yourself. Can you talk us through the other levels?
Oscar: Let’s talk about all of them together, then split them apart. Level one is listening to yourself. Level two is listening to the content: what people say, what you sense and the emotion that comes through in their words. Level three is listening for the context.
Context includes the backstory, patterns and the difference between listening to symptoms and listening to systems. Something you’re doing in your work right now is learning how to listen systemically across data. When you don’t listen to systems, you have royal commissions, whether in aged care, the treatment of children, or banking and financial services.
Level four is listening for what’s unsaid. To understand the neuroscience of listening, consider that I speak at 125 words per minute but can think at 900. That means the first thing someone says represents 5% of what they mean. If you can listen to the next 125 words and the 125 words after that, you can listen to what they haven’t said.
Finally, level five is listening for what the person means, not just what they say. Many people struggle to express what they’re trying to say the first time because of that 125–900 rule.
Each level is progressive. If you don’t have the foundation of listening to yourself, it’s difficult to access the higher levels. Based on our research, we know that only half of 1% of the working population can listen at level five.
For many of us, it’s about doing the basics well: switching off our phone or notifications, drinking a glass of water before every conversation and drinking a glass of water every half-hour. That sends a signal to the body that everything is okay. Breathing properly is also important at level one. Once you’ve mastered your breathing, take a few deep breaths before entering a conversation.
If you get distracted during a conversation, here are two basic tips. First, reset your attention by asking yourself, “What colour are the eyes of the person I’m speaking to?” With me, it’s difficult because one of my eyes is a different colour from the other, James, so you might notice a difference if you’re playing that game right now.
Second, if you’ve noticed the person’s eye colour but you’re still distracted, take a quick, deep breath in through your nose and out through your mouth. It doesn’t have to sound like an Olympic weightlifter; the person won’t even notice. Once you’ve mastered that, notice the speaker’s breathing as well. Are they taking short breaths or long breaths?
Those are the practical tips for level one. We can go through each of the levels. Which one would you be most curious to learn about, James?
James: Talk to me about what’s unsaid. It’s easy to hear someone speak, listen to what they’ve said, then continue the conversation or take information from it.
Listening to what is unsaid#
James: It’s important to listen to what they didn’t say. Perhaps important information was left out, maybe on purpose. What experiences have you had where listening for what’s unsaid has been useful?
Oscar: This story comes from a workshop I did in Melbourne in 2015. There were 12 leaders in a room, and it was about 20 minutes to one. I knew it was close to lunchtime because the CEO was tapping a finger on the table to get my attention, pointing to their watch and saying, “We are going to finish.”
We were doing a simple exercise: “What animal is this organisation?” Eleven of the 12 people had spoken. They said it was an eagle, an osprey, a seagull or a seahawk—all these fast-moving, fluid animals. One person hadn’t spoken: Eileen. She was at the end of the table and was probably a card-carrying member of the introvert club.
I turned and gestured to her. I didn’t say anything, but I sensed that Eileen didn’t get to speak much in this group. As I turned to her, I could feel the laser beam of the CEO’s eyes. If it had been a cartoon, his eyes would have made my head explode, because he wanted to eat. That was all he was interested in.
I stopped, paused, turned slowly towards her and said nothing. She said, “I thought we were a snake.”
You could feel the tension rising in the room. James, when I say “snake,” what goes through your mind? What are the characteristics of snakes?
James: My mind goes to venomous and sneaky. It’s not really a happy, fun animal.
Oscar: I paused and waited for Eileen to finish.
What you don’t know about Eileen is that her family history and culture come primarily from China. In China, the relationship with the snake is very different; it’s actually a revered creature. She said, “I think we’re a snake because we’ve forgotten to shed our skin. We’re holding on to practices, we’re not listening to customers, and we’re not evolving in the way we have in the past.”
The tension in the room changed completely. A significant conversation followed about shedding the skin of bad business processes and processes that weren’t helpful for customers. It only came about because someone in the room took the time to listen to what wasn’t being said, which was Eileen talking about a snake.
For her, the snake is about adaptation and change. In the West, we have this mindset that snakes are bad. In Christian storytelling traditions, the snake is part of the origin story: the temptation in the Garden of Eden by a snake to eat the apple, after which humans have to work for the rest of their lives. Those traditions don’t have a great relationship with snakes.
For everyone listening, it’s a good example of the listening filters or biases you have. If you want to learn more about what gets in the way of your listening, you can go to listeningquiz.com, take a 20-question quiz and get a five-page report explaining your barriers.
The conversation did not finish until 20 past one, James. The food was in the room, but nobody was eating. In too many workplaces, the opinions that are ignored belong to people who don’t naturally want to speak up, because the host or meeting organiser doesn’t create enough space.
If you’re in a one-on-one conversation, there are three simple things you can use to listen for what someone is trying to say or what they’re really thinking. The first phrase is, “Tell me more.” The next is, “And what else?” Please don’t use them immediately after each other, or the person will probably become annoyed. Some of my clients abbreviate “and what else” to AWE.
When you use these phrases, the speaker will take a breath, pause and straighten their spine. They’ll say things like, “Actually, now that I think about it, I haven’t told you about this issue, this person, this department or this financial model,” whatever the case may be.
The first question is, “Tell me more.” The second is, “And what else?” The third is possibly the most powerful. Use it carefully, skilfully and with empathy; don’t use it to intimidate the other person. The third is silence.
Don’t worry: my video didn’t freeze. “Silent” and “listen” have exactly the same letters. In the West, we have an awkward relationship with silence. We call it the deafening silence, the awkward silence or the pregnant pause. Many of us want to fill that space.
In our Indigenous communities, with our Māori cousins and Polynesian neighbours, silence is a sign of wisdom, respect and authority. It’s a sign of great elders and of building tribes that matter. In high-context cultures such as China, Japan and South Korea, the pause is also a sign of seniority in the room.
Ask, “Tell me more” or “And what else?” and then pause. Silence is difficult for many people starting their careers because they feel they’re paid for the speed of their answers. I would say: take a little longer and think about the quality of your response when someone asks you a question, rather than trying to give the fastest response in the room.
Introverts are amazing synthesisers of group conversations. Check in regularly with an introvert and ask, “What themes are you noticing in the group, and what themes do you sense are absent?” You’ll expand what’s unsaid so that you don’t have to rework things because people didn’t fully understand what everyone initially asked for.
I’m curious about what you’re thinking right now, James.
James: I’m reflecting on what you said about introverts in the room and the example of the woman who hadn’t said anything during the meeting. Sometimes, the people who don’t say much have their heads spinning because they’re thinking about everything that’s going on.
Although they may not voice their opinions as loudly as other people, they often have very good insights. As we said about listening to what’s not said, we need to be aware of the room. People who aren’t speaking may have valid opinions that should be shared, but perhaps they don’t have the confidence or belief in themselves. Drawing out those opinions can be beneficial.
Oscar: Be careful with labels. Labels are good on food jars and pharmaceutical products, but they’re not good on people.
In a room of actuaries and accountants, I would be considered an extrovert. In a room full of actors, I would be considered an introvert. Labels are useful until they’re not, so focus on behaviour rather than saying, “That person is…” Sometimes people behave more reflectively, and that’s okay.
The skilful thing is to encourage those people to participate and offer their opinions earlier in a conversation. People become frustrated with deep thinkers and introverts when they listen to the whole meeting, then drop a hand grenade five minutes before the end by saying, “You do realise you haven’t spent any time talking about our customers.”
The whole room thinks, “Why didn’t they say that earlier?”
We need to be conscious that listening is situational, relational and contextual. You’ll listen differently to a peer than to your manager, at home than at work, and to somebody you’ve known for a long time than to somebody you’ve just met.
There are two ways you can listen: you can give attention or pay attention. Neither is right or wrong. Some of you are giving attention to this conversation between James and me. Others are paying attention because you’re on a bike in a gym, on a treadmill, gardening or commuting. For you, it’s background audio.
Those of you giving attention are sitting down and listening. You may be taking notes or overlaying the conversation with the context you’re working on. There are different ways we show up with our listening.
You can’t be a deep listener all the time. We all have listening batteries, James, no different from a phone. For some of us, they’re drained by lunchtime; for others, they’re drained by the time we finish work. A quick way to reset your listening batteries is to listen to a song or some music for two or three minutes. That will help your brain relax and catch up, leaving you able to listen to the next conversation.
I’m curious, James: where do you think you struggle most in your listening?
Habits of Great Listeners#
James: My initial thoughts go to the distractions we discussed before, such as a phone or email. Smaller things distract me too: what’s for dinner tonight, what’s next on the agenda today, or what someone meant by something they said yesterday. These distractions aren’t necessarily caused by something outside me; sometimes my focus simply wanders while someone is speaking. That can really affect my listening.
Oscar: The difference between a good listener and a great listener is not that great listeners never get distracted. People often ask me at the beginning of workshops or webinars, “How do I stop being distracted?” The good news—and the bad news—is that you’ll never stop being distracted.
We spoke earlier about the 125–900 rule, which is the difference between my speaking speed and my thinking speed. The 125–400 rule is the difference between my speaking speed and your listening speed. You can listen at 400 words per minute, so every conversation you have with a human is too slow for your listening speed. You will be distracted.
The difference between a good listener and a great listener is not that they get distracted; it’s that they notice their distraction more quickly and come back into the conversation.
As a bridging strategy, use a phrase that makes many of the people I work with a little uncomfortable. When they have the courage to use it, amazing things open up. James, have you ever been distracted when someone said something important and thought, “If I listen a little longer, the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle will fall into place”?
James: Yes.
Oscar: For everyone listening to the podcast, James is nodding his head furiously.
Rather than being out of integrity with the speaker, pause and say, “I’m really sorry. I got distracted. Do you mind saying that again?” That creates an amazing connection between the two of you. You’ve signalled that what they say matters while acknowledging that you’re human and became distracted. They’ll repeat themselves because it has happened to them too; speakers also drift off.
You can’t do it three times in a row—“Sorry, I got distracted. Could you say that again? Sorry, I got distracted again”—or they’ll think, “This person doesn’t care about what I’m saying.”
I use the phrase surprisingly often. It relaxes people because they think, “He’s going to be honest with me in this conversation, so I can be more honest with him as well.” Say, “I’m sorry. I was distracted by the red car that drove past, the coffee machine or whatever it was. Would you mind repeating that? I think it’s important.”
James: I’ve been in meetings where the person running it asks, “James, what do you think?” and I realise I missed what they were saying. It’s better to be honest and say, “I lost you there. Can you repeat the question?”
That builds trust. Otherwise, you try to answer when you don’t even know the question, make yourself look silly and completely miss what they asked. It’s much better to be genuine, reset and continue from there.
Oscar: It also gives the speaker permission to do the same when they’re listening to you.
James: We’ve spoken about the five levels of listening and the different things involved when you’re coaching someone. If they’re a level-two listener who wants to improve, what do you work on to help them progress towards level five, where they’re listening for the meaning behind what’s being said?
Coaching lessons for improving your listening#
James: What are some key lessons you use to encourage people to improve their listening?
Oscar: Keep in mind that 86% of people are at level one or level two. Aspiring to level five is like a social runner who does parkruns wanting to run a marathon. Only half of 1% of the world’s population has ever run a marathon. That takes a high level of commitment. Having run six myself and suffered long-term injuries as a result, I understand the commitment involved.
At level two, one of the things I want people to become conscious of is whether they’re listening to reload their argument or listening to help the speaker make sense of what they’re thinking.
Many of us think we need to understand everything the speaker is saying. One way we can be helpful at level two is to start noticing patterns in how the speaker explains a problem. All the research I’ve done is in the workplace, James, so the examples I’ll give are also from the workplace.
A client told me about meeting a peer and saying, “I’m really struggling with my boss.” Before they could finish, the other person said, “You think you’ve got a bad boss? Let me tell you about the worst boss I ever had.” They spent the next 20 minutes talking at the first person about their own boss.
What the first person wanted in that moment was for the listener to listen, not solve or compare. At level two, one of the first things we want to do is help the speaker make sense of the patterns they’re talking about.
When you’re listening at level two, notice whether people talk mainly about the past, the present or the future. Do they speak about themselves, the team or others? Are they mainly internally or externally oriented? Do they speak in statistics or stories? Do they speak in detail or in big pictures?
We want you to notice how the other person speaks so you can start to match their style. Imagine I’m a very elaborate storyteller who loves drawing on a whiteboard. If you continue to talk to me using only sequential, rational details, there will be a mismatch in the way we’re speaking and listening to each other. You need to engage with my stories and explain how what you’re trying to say is relevant.
Many of us don’t notice the adjectives, pronouns, nouns or verbs people use. “Picture this” is a phrase that sets up a story from someone who loves telling stories. Your job is not to cut the story off mid-sentence, but to let them finish. Someone who says, “It really sounds like we’ve got an issue here,” has an auditory preference and is usually interested in detail.
When listening at level two, notice not only what people say but also how they express it. They will feel more comfortable because they can relax into their normal style.
Early in your career, you might think, “This is difficult enough. I’m trying to learn my profession and the organisation, and now you’re telling me to learn to listen to the way my manager speaks.” If you do, your likelihood of being promoted is much higher. They’re more likely to trust you with interesting and complex projects and give you projects with more senior visibility.
I rebuilt the graduate program at Microsoft, by the way. I didn’t mention that to you, James. It was exported to 26 Microsoft subsidiaries around the world during my time there. I have a strong focus on next-generation leaders. What separated the people who moved from graduate positions to higher roles at Microsoft wasn’t their technical skill; it was their communication effectiveness.
This is a superpower you can build. You’ll accelerate your career if you’re perceived as a better listener.
James: It’s good to work on your speaking and writing, but people often haven’t considered improving their listening as part of their communication skill set. The tips you’ve given—paying attention to how someone speaks, not just what they say—are fundamental to developing that whole skill set.
It’s interesting that communication, rather than technical skill, drives your role in an organisation. I’ve found in my own workplace that knowing your technical role is good, but communication becomes important when you take the next step and lead a team.
Attributes of Successful Graduates#
James: When you designed that graduate program and watched people progress through the organisation, were there other common threads among those who progressed particularly well, compared with those whose communication skills weren’t as developed?
Oscar: I feel like the grandfather of these graduates because many have moved to China, the US, Western Europe, the UK, Singapore and South America. It’s amazing to see them. There are a couple of common threads among the people who took on more responsibility. I’m not saying that’s the definition of career success; it was their definition of career success.
Number one: learn the business, not just your department. They were very good at that. They volunteered for cross-organisational projects rather than projects solely within their departments, so they learnt much more about the customers.
For some, that meant negotiating with their manager for one hour a week to listen to customer calls in a contact centre. If you’re in a large organisation, that’s something you need to discuss with your manager, but it will give you a much broader perspective of the business.
The second thing that distinguished the graduates who moved on was that they understood the economics of their organisation and the outputs it was trying to create. Government departments are very output-driven: what is the policy, how does it connect to our citizens, and what budgets and policies support that? In commercial businesses, it’s about understanding revenues, costs and how those things come together. The graduates were relatively commercially astute.
The third thing was that they were courageous. They were happy to approach the most senior people in the organisation and ask, “What advice would you give me?” Many would book half-hour coffees with people anywhere in the world. LinkedIn is an amazing tool they used to connect with people who weren’t necessarily in their own organisation but had the skills they aspired to.
So, number one, network outside your department and understand what matters to the whole organisation. Number two, understand the commercial or output requirements of the organisation. Number three, be courageous and reach out to somebody. It’s rare that they’ll say no. They may say, “I’m not the best person to support you on that. Can I introduce you to someone who can?”
James, you’re a perfect example. You got a referral from our common friend, and here we are having a conversation about listening.
James: Referrals are great. I know that networking within an organisation is quite easy: I can look someone up and quickly send them a message. But it’s also possible to reach people outside your organisation—perhaps at an organisation in the same field or one where you’d like to work someday. This is an example of reaching out to people you don’t know directly but can connect with through your network.
Especially when you’re a graduate or a bit younger, people are often supportive. They’ll give you advice and try to help you get where you want to go. I’ve generally found that few people will say, “I’m not interested in helping you, and I’m not going to tell you who else to speak to.” Most people are genuine and care about you as you’re trying to grow your career.
Oscar’s Tips for Graduates#
James: I have one last question. We’ve spoken about graduates, and you’ve had a fantastic career working in many organisations. If you were graduating this year and starting your career next year, what is one piece of advice you would give yourself?
Oscar: I would give myself two pieces of advice. First, I would give back to my first-year university lecturers. I would ask them, “Can I do a guest lecture about my workplace experience and how I’ve applied what I learnt from you, as a thank you?”
Second, I would spend more time listening to executive assistants and administrators in the organisation. They are the glue that holds the organisation together. They make everything run smoothly, and if you’re in their bad books, they can slow everything down for you as well.
Whether it’s a receptionist, an executive assistant or any other kind of administrator, these people are the glue that holds the organisation together. I’d invest more time in getting to know them.
Outro#
James: That’s great advice. This conversation has been fantastic. There’s so much value inside your head, Oscar. Thanks for sitting down with me today. It’s been special.
If people are looking to connect with you, where is the best place for them to go?
Oscar: Visit listeningquiz.com. It has all the information you need, whether you want to take the quiz and find out what your listening barriers are or connect with me via LinkedIn. All the details are at listeningquiz.com.
James: Thanks so much for your time today, Oscar.
Oscar: Thanks for listening.