This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
Mykel: If we aren’t careful, creativity can be taken from us. But what happens to our lives and careers if we engage with it, make time, invest, act courageously and tend the garden? The opportunities are extraordinary, James.
Creativity as we get older#
James: I studied maths at university, so I love a good statistic. Your book describes research that classified 98% of five-year-olds as creative geniuses, but only 2% of those same people by age 30. That seems astonishing and presumably affects almost all of us. Why does our creativity decline as we age?
Mykel: Look at how we work and consume information. At the tail end of the Industrial Revolution, we’ve been heavily and consistently shaped for decades. That research came from George Land, who designed one of the first creativity tests for NASA to help find the most creative minds for the moon mission.
After its success, he tried it with five-year-olds. The results suggested that roughly 98% of people are born with this creative capacity. It falls to 30% at age ten, 12% at 15, and about 2% by 30, when people have jobs, homes and children. George famously concluded, “The research is conclusive: non-creative behaviour is learnt.”
In other words, we’re taught and conditioned out of our natural creativity. I’m not criticising the education system or blaming anybody. The principles driving much of modern society have prioritised rationality, linearity, logic, pragmatism, optimisation, efficiency, productivity and growth at all costs, including extraction and exploitation.
Like a factory line, you shave the edges, tighten the process, minimise materials, cut costs and maximise profit. That mindset has profoundly affected us as human beings. We first need to recognise and accept that.
Why does creativity matter#
James: You’ve seen creativity and wellbeing become closely connected when people engage with it. Why is creativity so important?
Mykel: It’s how we create our world. I define creativity as a life force: pure potential gathering momentum and producing results. It’s our natural self-expression—the energy that gets each person up and imagining new possibilities. We perceive information, process it through our mind, subconscious, heart, soul and senses, then create something and give it back to the world almost in gratitude for everything we’ve received.
Everything we use is the outcome of creativity. Riverside, which we’re using to record this podcast, began as an idea that was iterated, created, coded, tested and produced. Our clothes, food and cars embody value somebody gave the world. The entire process is creative and natural. Our difficulty began when we stopped seeing it as organic.
A rainforest is pure creativity: fertile soil reaches towards the sun, rain produces growth, and mushrooms transmit information. It’s a constant organic explosion of possibility. We isolate elements, grow only one part, segregate everything and place it into boxes, but humans and life don’t work that way. We must return to the organic creativity we were born with.
How can we re-engage with creativity#
James: Most people haven’t completely lost that essence; education, society and other influences have hidden it. How can somebody re-engage with it?
Mykel: What lights you up, Jimmy? What do you love?
James: I would measure it through flow: activities that lock me into the zone until I look at the clock and four hours have passed.
Mykel: What’s an example?
James: Recently, it’s programming. I become absorbed in a problem, time flies and the work feels satisfying. I can easily get lost in it, although that’s probably a nerdy example.
Mykel: That’s excellent. Everyone has their thing, and whatever moves you is the access point—the way back. It could be listening to 1950s rock and roll, people-watching over wine at a café, watching old films or science fiction, or playing with your children. Find whatever makes you feel that life is amazing.
We’ve lost our capacity to feel, although feelings are neon signs for what matters to us and a gateway back to creativity and self-expression. We’ve robbed, starved and suppressed those feelings, mocked them as inappropriate or hidden them to avoid appearing weak. Become attuned to what moves you.
For me, it’s nature and the arts. Both affect you beyond the thinking mind; they reach your body, emotions and soul. Surround yourself with more of that. You don’t have to do anything—let it affect and move you. The next step will present itself. Creativity is a life-giving force when it returns.
James: There’s something special about a long walk in nature, looking at the stars, or jumping around and singing when your favourite song plays. You connect with something that’s often lost in the professional environment: the pure joy of those moments.
The Shift in Work#
Mykel: You’re relatively new to your professional career and entered a corporate environment transformed by the pandemic and working from home. You love coding, mathematics, numbers and complex problems. Has the workplace matched what you expected at school and university?
James: One aspect was completely different. In my final year at university, I had an excellent, highly structured study routine that I’d like to replicate one day.
I’d wake at 6:30, leave home at seven, park at 7:30, walk to university and begin around eight. After four or five hours of deep, focused study, I’d visit the gym and be home by two or three, well ahead of every deadline. I thought that was how work should happen.
During an internship in my penultimate summer, I naively told my future supervisor that I worked best by arriving early, entering the zone in the morning and saving meetings for the afternoon. He looked at me as if to say, “That’s not how we do things.” Once I started, I realised I had little control over my schedule and had to participate in fixed activities. That wasn’t entirely bad, but it differed from my expectations.
Mykel: That’s a beautiful example. My friend Aaron McEwan works at Gartner and researches the future of work with large organisations. He says the pandemic is driving a transformation comparable to businesses’ awakening to customer experience a decade or two ago.
Companies realised they couldn’t send one email to 500,000 subscribers. They needed to personalise, understand what customers wanted and design better products and experiences. Listening would make customers more likely to buy.
The same shift is now occurring with employee experience. Businesses must understand their people and design environments they want to join, or they’ll go elsewhere. Your first instinct after university was to say that you understood yourself: rising early, doing four hours of deep work, visiting the gym and then attending meetings would work best.
An entrenched supervisor saw only that it wasn’t their normal method. The opportunity was to ask what worked best and design around it. Employment fundamentally aims to gain your maximum value. If you’ve already explained how to obtain that value, the company should thank you and collaborate.
Most companies aren’t there yet, but they’re recognising the need for a better way. If you know how to be most creative, innovative and productive, I’d say, “James, you do you. Here’s what we need within two weeks—go for it.”
James: Just as email lists are customised for customers, companies could customise for their internal customers: employees. Everybody is wired differently, but connecting the pieces creates a win-win. People work as they prefer and the business gets their best contribution.
Mykel: You and listeners who are beginning their careers or five to ten years in have an opportunity to lead this change. Senior leaders must recognise: “We’re ready, willing and valuable. We’re hungry to progress, but also understand ourselves and what works best.”
If leaders listen, young employees can help create spaces where they thrive and everybody wins. They’re not paying enough attention yet. Across society, women, people of colour and groups seeking social justice are demanding accountability.
Young people are part of that shift in power. Systems that brought us this far no longer serve everybody, only a select few. It’s time to change the game. James, you’ll lead the revolution and transform the world of work by Christmas.
James: Christmas may be ambitious. Let’s make it the end of the financial year.
Mykel: I’ll give you that.
Change comes from you#
James: Many of us think, “I’d like to work this way,” or, “My workplace should do this.” But it’s our responsibility to drive change. We can’t assume another external event like COVID will arrive and take care of it.
Mykel: If you don’t harness and feed that energy, it will fade. Youth and optimism bring power and a vision of the future, but seeds that aren’t cultivated will wither and die.
That 2% figure beyond age 30 reflects people failing to tend the garden of self-expression, creativity and furious fascination with making things. Moving the world forward and taking responsibility for your own capacity to thrive requires staying hungry, pushing change and poking the bear. You’ll collect bruises, but frontline experience develops confidence, positioning and communication.
This podcast is a perfect example. Hundreds of thousands of Australians probably discuss starting one, many for more than three years, but you’re doing it after work at 8:30 on a Thursday night.
That hunger keeps you young, in the game, learning, growing and pushing until you change the game for others. It’s important.
James: If you don’t water the garden, it slowly dies. Eventually, reviving it may become difficult, or you may forget how to water it.
Mykel: Then you become sad, old, lonely and bitter.
James: We don’t want that.
Mykel: Or an executive.
Thoughts to Reality is a Muscle#
James: Acting on ideas is vital: taking the trip, messaging somebody, or starting the podcast or newsletter instead of saying it would be nice one day. Turning thought into reality is a skill or muscle that weakens when unused.
Mykel: It does. The odds are stacked against us because the world wants consumers who incur debt, work to repay it, vote and keep the machine running. Without becoming conspiratorial, we’ve entered a strange world. It’s important to preserve hunger and positive dissent, consciously disrupt things, shake the tree and keep people alert.
A friend who loves mythology and archetypes often discusses the trickster and court jester. The jester is often the king or queen’s trusted right-hand person, kept close while gently mocking the monarch. The jokes also tell the villagers that the system is invented and needn’t remain this way. We allow the game to continue; recognising that could produce rapid change.
Convenience keeps us playing along. We want safe, clean lives, Netflix, Uber Eats and creature comforts. But if we recognised our participation, we could quickly change the game.
James: It’s like taking the red pill in The Matrix.
Mykel: Absolutely. I watched it at the cinema with friends in the late 1990s, and we emerged believing it would change the world. It was a cultural icon that immediately shifted your mindset. Yet afterwards, we seemed to become even more embedded in the Matrix.
James: It’s a remarkable film that’s still used in countless analogies. Returning to your earlier point, creativity is almost a matter of life and death.
Creativity is life or death#
James: Creativity deserves serious attention. I’ve seen older colleagues and hoped that at their age I’ll retain my zest, creativity and inner fire rather than letting it be extinguished. I respect their individual journeys, but don’t want to lose that part of myself.
Mykel: You’re right. I studied and played music after university, then performed for ten or 15 years. At 18, 20, 25 and 28, I mixed with interesting people aged 37, 42, 60 and beyond. They lived on the edge and outside the square, so I assumed that’s what everybody grew into. I encountered the corporate world later through my current work.
It staggered me. Was this what everybody did in large buildings from nine to five each week? It was a wake-up call to see so many sick, unhealthy, burnt-out, tired, disenfranchised and lonely people. That sounds harsh, but the reality is terrifying and tragic. We need to stop and examine it.
It is a matter of life and death, and there’s urgency. Otherwise, one, two or four decades pass and retirement arrives before you ask, “What the fuck have I done? I worked several jobs and stayed late. I barely know my children. I own two houses, but so what? I rarely travelled, or wasn’t present because I was always on my phone.” We need to wake up.
James: Many listeners are young, but time passes quickly. One year becomes another while you repeat the same routine until you suddenly arrive somewhere you never intended to be. You must stoke the fire of creativity and energy or risk drifting into an unwanted life.
Mykel: Absolutely. Creativity can be taken from us if we aren’t careful. But consider what happens when we engage with it, make time, invest, act courageously and tend the garden: opportunities, joy, connection and magic appear. Creativity has served me more than anything else. When life is difficult, money is scarce and you can’t see a way out, you draw upon creativity.
When things are going well, creativity asks how to make them better, grow, outmanoeuvre competitors, win an opportunity or earn a promotion. It makes the career journey more enjoyable and reduces fixation on a destination. Many older people struggled because they sacrificed too much for a promised destination where everything would supposedly improve.
Anchor yourself in a playful, creative, curious and courageous state. Play for the game’s sake and have fun: make a podcast, try something at work or organise an event despite having no experience. If three people attend, try again. Next time it may be 30, then 300, and suddenly you have a career.
When you take one step towards the world in that spirit, it seems to take six towards you and offer what you need to create magic. I’ve seen it repeatedly in my life and in people I admire. They surrender, trust and lose themselves in creativity and flow from morning to night, asking, “What do you have for me today, universe?” That’s completely different from a life organised around a nine o’clock Zoom meeting. We need to swing the pendulum back.
You being at your best makes things better for everyone#
James: That inner fire is rare, so people who possess it become magnetic. Others want to be around somebody who brings light and fun to conversations and meetings. Engaging that part of yourself makes life more enjoyable for everybody else too.
Mykel: That’s a beautiful framing: simply being somebody others enjoy makes a difference. You needn’t constantly joke or be gregarious, outgoing or extroverted.
People can still think, “I enjoy projects with you. I want you on my team.” That will matter increasingly. We don’t have time for somebody who elbows others aside, boasts about 50,000 LinkedIn followers and pursues success alone. I want somebody who makes me feel good, plays collaboratively, shares and values my contribution.
Those people will have a workplace advantage. As when choosing school teams, you select people who make you feel good. Skills can be learnt; being a good person gets you chosen.
James: You can bring considerable joy to others. Connection to that energy is almost a superpower. There’s a balance between pursuing your ambitions and doing so in an enjoyable way.
Balancing Fun and Work#
James: How do you pursue a specific position while preserving creativity and fun?
Mykel: Be aware of those around you, their circumstances, aspirations and what works for them. Take a courteous, thoughtful and considerate approach while remaining hungry. If you want a medal or premiership, you can rise at 4:00 a.m., train hard and spend longer in the gym without being an arsehole.
You can push people and hold them accountable without cruelty, shame or exclusion. Creativity is collaborative, inclusive, generous and generative. It uses what’s available rather than rejecting people: “Come on, let’s build this together.” Peace, love and happiness.
Re-Engaging with Creativity#
James: You give many talks and workshops about restoring workplace creativity. What advice would help somebody escape a rut and re-engage with theirs?
Mykel: Return to what connects with and inspires you: films, music or events. Seek inspiration and let it affect you, because what enters directly influences what emerges.
If you lack inspiration, creativity, ideas or a sense of identity and purpose, go searching. Become hungry and curious even when live events or new experiences feel uncomfortable.
It won’t find you while you remain home, visit the same places, speak to the same people and consume the same material. Take one small step towards it and it will come closer.
Read a novel rather than a business magazine—choose art designed to ignite your imagination and let your subconscious do the work. Fill your mind with beauty and interesting people. Attend an event or the theatre. For thousands of years, humans have watched others tell stories live on stage, and audiences emerge changed.
Take a tradie, engineer, mathematician or anybody who claims not to like theatre. After a show, they may rethink their life. That’s art’s purpose: to make you think differently, open you and connect ideas.
Seek experiences that affect you. Don’t overthink it. You could spend hours designing a gym routine and calculating macros, or simply do 100 push-ups. Likewise, listen to music, find art or enter a creative space and let it wash over you. Creativity is powerful; we don’t need to understand it, only let it in.
James: Taking one step beyond your routine matters. Habits such as reading or exercising can help, but eventually become dependencies that lead somewhere stale and drain fun and energy. At that point, change the routine or try something completely different. I’m interested in examining my life, turning things around and attempting something wild that may or may not work.
Mykel: Excellent. You’re awesome, mate.
James: Thank you. We have about ten minutes left and a few more things I’d like to ask.
How to be a good public speaker#
James: You’ve won awards for public speaking and presentations. Have you consciously developed that skill? Where did you begin, how did you evolve and what have you learnt?
Mykel: Everybody needs presentation skills, particularly when progressing through a business. Communicating effectively and influencing from a stage, presentation or pitch matters in marketing, sales and gaining support for ideas.
We could discuss nuances, but the simple answer is time on the court: the more you speak, the better you become. You can accelerate by studying storytelling, posture, breathing and vocal tone, but beginners mainly need repetition. As with doing push-ups or immersing yourself in a creative place such as Fitzroy or Collingwood, take, find and create opportunities to speak.
Become terrified, vomit beforehand if necessary, worry for three weeks, write 17,000 words for a two-minute talk, delete them and begin again. Repeating that process teaches more than searching for three tips or six hacks.
This reflects our entire conversation: instead of plotting steps X, Y and Z, enter the game and play. One live presentation, keynote or speech teaches more than 50 rehearsals. Onstage, you learn while panicking, saying something good, seeing a strange audience reaction and fearing you’re terrible.
You may leave convinced it was disastrous, then hear that somebody loved it. Another time, you may believe you were brilliant and receive criticism. You must experience both. Speak as often as possible. Begin by raising your hand in a meeting or unmuting yourself on Zoom or Teams when somebody asks for questions.
Don’t wait for the usual confident person. They’re receiving the benefit and growing more comfortable while you remain silent. Raise your hand before forming a question. When called upon, you’ll surprise yourself and find something to say.
We’re more gifted, talented, creative and spontaneous than we realise, but don’t enter the mix often enough. Screens, mute buttons and disabled cameras make hiding easier than merely avoiding eye contact in a room. Hiding prevents growth. This hybrid Zoom world may be the best time to practise speaking: join and contribute.
Volunteer to lead or report from a conference breakout table. Admit that you don’t want to but need the practice. Others will support your courage. Offer to do the first presentation if somebody else does the second, allowing everyone to grow instead of always deferring to Tracy.
Many techniques can later refine your speaking, but begin by doing it constantly. I learnt that through music. Home practice, scales, listening and transcription matter, but my mentors said to book gigs. Play as many as possible—to nobody, on the street, or in a shopping centre where nobody listens. You learn faster by being in the game. That’s my public-speaking advice.
James: That connects back to creativity: you best water its garden by entering the game and testing things.
Mykel: You’re tying it all together, my friend.
Advice for Graduates#
James: Mykel, what advice would you give university students and early-career people who want to develop their careers and remain among the 2% of creative geniuses when they’re older?
Mykel: Don’t let the world get to you. Things are improving, but the next decade may remain bumpy. People will be cruel, talk behind your back, withhold information or try to stunt your career. Don’t let them stop you. Trust and love yourself. Accept that you’re here for a reason neither better nor lesser than anybody else’s.
You have a voice and something to contribute—to neighbours, family, colleagues or customers. You could become another Steve Jobs or simply Barry in the suburbs, a wonderful person who greets the postie each day. Don’t let the world diminish the miracle you are. That may sound like Tony Robbins, but we need it now.
We’ve been told we aren’t enough and won’t succeed. Instagram suggests everybody is better-looking, thinner and richer. It’s bullshit; they’re also worried, terrified and insecure. Find trustworthy people and build a safe, sacred unit where you value, support and remind one another that you’re excellent.
The world you build will improve upon the one I inherited, just as mine improved upon my parents’. We’re progressing, although the journey can knock you around. Everybody listening, including you, James, is extraordinary and has beautiful things to offer that we haven’t yet discovered. That’s the magic: who knows what James will do in five, ten or 20 years? If you believe you have nothing special to give, you won’t launch the next project, and everyone loses its benefit.
In keynotes, sessions and leadership programs, I encourage people to share generously. I can speak for hours or months, but the real value comes from participants sharing their stories, experiences, perspectives and perceptions. Your question, story or insight may unlock something for somebody else.
Perhaps their entire reason for attending was to hear you, not me. If you remain silent because your question seems inadequate or others seem more talented, you may deny that person what they need to set their life on fire. We’re all connected, and believing we aren’t enough or have nothing to contribute is insidious.
Your contribution may simply be raising your hand to say you don’t understand. Seventeen others may have the same question but lack the courage to ask. I want a generous world where we’re together, fully ourselves and share as much as possible. That world is coming. Hang in there; we’re in this together.
James: That was inspiring and full of wisdom. Thank you for the kind words. It’s been a pleasure hearing your thoughts, Mykel. Where can listeners learn more about you?
Mykel: My website is mykeldixon.com, spelled M-Y-K-E-L-D-I-X-O-N. I’ve become more active on LinkedIn and Instagram because those platforms need more light, joy and alternative voices. I’m returning with a vengeance, hopefully in a fun way. Come and say hello.
Outro#
James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. To receive my takeaways and everything I learnt, subscribe to Graduate Theory at GraduateTheory.com/subscribe. You’ll get my takeaways and information about each episode straight in your inbox.
Thanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you next week.