This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
Caleb: It’s not about, “How do I take?” It’s about, “How do I support and help as much as I can?”
Intro#
James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today’s guest is the Head of Programs at EntryLevel, and he’s a partner at Proximity Ventures.
He’s passionate about startups in Africa and writes about his learnings in his newsletter. Please welcome to the show today, Caleb Maru.
Caleb: Hey, great to be here.
Start of interest in Africa#
James: Welcome to the show, mate. I’m excited to chat to you today about all the experience you’ve got with different African startups. I’d love to dive into your experience there. In particular, we can start with how you got involved with everything in Africa. What was your first introduction to the possibility of doing this kind of thing in Africa?
Caleb: The African background is definitely a big part of everything I’m doing. It didn’t really start as, “I want a career in Africa,” or, “This is a cool opportunity. Let me go over there.” I grew up travelling to Africa a lot, to Ethiopia in particular. That’s where my family’s from.
When I was young, I’d go there and have fun. I’d hang out with my cousins, play around and see my grandparents. But on a trip when I was 14, it clicked that the conditions were very different from Australia. It had seemed really fun when I was younger, but now I saw that the living conditions, the level of opportunity and access to human rights and resources were so much worse and so fundamentally different. It was unacceptable.
From when that clicked at 14, it became, “Okay, cool. I should be trying to do something to improve it and really make a difference in this region, because it’s somewhere I’m from.” I drew the luck lottery by being born and raised in Australia.
That was the start of it. It wasn’t this succinct or clear when I was younger, but I just knew. I wanted to do human rights law in Africa and ended up doing that for a while. I had a stint at a consultancy called Matu Consult, where I ended up becoming a partner. We did peace and security policy and economic policy across East Africa.
I quickly realised it wasn’t as fast-moving as I wanted. It didn’t do the job I wanted, which was: how do you push the continent further? I found what did that job when I spent time with startups. I realised that startups on the continent aren’t just accessories or nice-to-haves. They’re solving really hard problems and turning those solutions into very profitable companies. You have this really ambitious young population, plus the ease of adopting technology now, so anyone can build something online. We’re at a very exciting point for startups in Africa.
That’s how I ended up working with and investing in startups in Africa. It’s the background that inducted me into what the realities are like and made me purpose-driven about fixing them—or trying to help and improve conditions on the continent.
Biggest differences in startup culture between Aus and Africa#
James: It’s pretty cool and exciting, mate. It’s a big challenge as well. Africa is obviously a huge continent. It’s a pretty cool journey you’re on and challenge you’re undertaking.
What are some of the biggest differences in startup culture in Africa versus here in Australia? Is there much of a difference? Are there things African startups do really well, culturally or otherwise?
Caleb: Culture-wise, I don’t know if there’s too much difference. The way they think about startups, VC and building startups is quite similar. It’s definitely funnier. There are more founders I love on Twitter who just say loose shit all the time, and I’m like, “Whoa, that’s wild.”
Maybe a few things are different. One is speed. Founders here move fast and get things done, but some of the fastest founders I know in Australia would be standard in Africa, which is really interesting. The fast founders there whom I talk to are just crazy fast. You look at their progress and think, “You started this thing six months ago, and look where you’re at now.”
There are also a few structural differences. Africa is a continent, so you need to launch into different countries. You try to do that fairly quickly so you can get the lay of the land and then dominate that market. Founders are always looking at expansion and growing quickly, so that probably ties into speed as well. A founder might say, “We’re working on launching in this country.” In Australia, you can spend a while building in Australia and for the market here before launching in the US. Sometimes it takes a while to do that.
They’re also more frugal. Most of the startups I see are at break-even or profitable when they’re raising. Think about the leverage that gives you: if you’re not burning cash and you’re making money, you’re good. We invested in a startup that said, “We don’t need this round, but we just want to let some of our friends in.” That’s the mentality because so many of them are doing so well. They’re solving core needs, so they don’t need VC funding in the way startups here do, where you burn cash until you’re big enough to get economies of scale and become profitable.
Those are probably the main differences. I don’t know whether that speaks to the culture or simply the conditions there and the way startups on the continent raise and think about building. But it’s a fun place. It’s super fun.
Some of these societies are so tech-enabled, but also so different. In Kenya, no one uses cash anymore; everyone transfers money. They’ve been doing that since 2007. The bank transfers that have become hot and heavy here over the last 10 years were standard for them 10 years ago. Tech is much more ingrained in society.
James: That’s interesting. We’ve probably had tech for longer in Australia and the West, but it’s interesting that it became so ingrained there even earlier than it did here. It has almost overtaken us in some ways.
Caleb: Totally. Consumer adoption of new technologies is much higher there too, which is really exciting. I think part of that is because Africa has such a young population. I think over half of the population is under 35, and that is expected to balloon in the next 10 to 20 years. They’re on a phone and the internet from a really young age, so when they see a new app or product, they say, “Yeah, let me try that.”
James: One thing you mentioned was speed. You were saying some African founders are a lot faster than some of the guys here. Why do you think that is?
Caleb: Let me think about that carefully.
James: That’s okay. Do you think they have more drive and it’s personality-driven, or is it more that there are more things that can be done, so it’s almost easier to do stuff in a practical sense? Could it be either of those?
Caleb: There are a few threads here, and none of them are conclusive. About 23% of people in Africa have their own business. That’s how most people survive, because there literally aren’t enough jobs. You start your own thing and sell. It’s so embedded. Entrepreneurship culture isn’t like moving away from nine-to-five culture, where we’re now seeing a shift towards people wanting to work their own hours or start their own thing. Everyone has been starting their own thing forever. That’s how you make it. Being able to do that with technology is like putting it on steroids.
Another thread is that it’s a lot cheaper to build a team there, so it’s easier and cheaper to build one. There’s also such a big consumer market. People will take up new products and services fairly quickly, so getting your initial traction isn’t that hard. You can reinvest that into building a bigger team, and we’re seeing that happen quite a bit.
The other thread is that it’s harder to be a founder in Africa than it is here. You really want your startup to survive; you don’t want it to die. If your startup here dies, you’re probably all good. You’ll get a job somewhere, and you can hang out at your parents’ house until you find the next thing. There, it’s probably a bit different. The founders will probably be okay, but I think there’s a higher sense of urgency because the conditions aren’t the same. Starting a company is very difficult, and you’re taking a swing because you want that company to be the thing.
Here, I feel like many founders or entrepreneurs think, “That was a cool thing to do. I’m just going to live a normal, balanced life,” which is a good thing, but it isn’t really how the ultrafast entrepreneurs run. Those may be some of the reasons they move so quickly.
I guess they’re also just in love with it. They love building. Most of them are self-taught developers. We recently invested in a founder who taught himself to code and has shipped nine products in the last six months. He built them all himself. He’s the only backend developer and has a team of two frontend developers. It’s incredible to watch him run. He’s also the CEO and fundraiser, and he loves it. It’s just insane drive.
James: There’s that saying, “Burn the boats.” If there’s no way back and you’re going all in, you have to punch even harder. Perhaps that’s part of the case there, as you mentioned.
Caleb: I love that framework, where you burn the bridge entirely. You say, “Okay, I’m moving careers or fields. I’m not doing any more of that work, and I’m telling everyone I’m not doing any more of it.” Then it’s, “Shit, I can’t do anything else in that field. I have to go for it.”
Caleb: “Or I have to build this company.”
Undervalued parts of African startup ecosystem#
James: It’s powerful stuff. Another question I have about Africa is: looking at startups there, what are people missing? What big things are happening there, or what ways of doing things are people in the West oblivious to? There are things that are on fire and people are smashing it, but people here might dismiss them because they’re in Africa. Are there aspects of the startup scene, particular ways of doing things or particular companies that people are missing?
Caleb: I think I get you. What’s underappreciated about what the continent has going for it in the tech scene?
There are quite a few things. It’s interesting because many of them were originally framed as problems when they’re actually opportunities.
One is that you have this massive population that’s been shut out of access to government support and financial inclusion. People can’t get bank accounts because they don’t have the right verification or ID, or because the process is so lengthy. The unbanked population in Africa is massive. We don’t know specifically how many people it is, but it’s estimated that around 60% of people are unbanked.
So many things aren’t working in Africa. Combine that with a class of people who now have access to phones—phone penetration in Africa is skyrocketing—and internet connectivity. They can now access products on their phones. When you combine these hard problems with phone and internet penetration, startups have an opportunity to build solutions to really hard problems and give consumers access to things they’ve been shut out of but that we have in the West. You see that explode; it’s on fire in Africa in some ways.
We invested in a startup called Spleet. The problem they’re solving is that, in West Africa, it’s really expensive just to rent a place. I think the reason is that interest rates are so high that it makes more sense to pay for a house upfront than to get a loan. Landlords therefore require you to pay for a full year of rent. In Australia, that would be about $16,000. I cannot fork that out in one go, but that’s the reality there.
They’ve made a verification mechanism that lets you come on as a tenant and pay monthly—something we take for granted here—while the landlord gets their cash upfront. It’s like rent now, pay later.
There are problems that tech can solve pretty easily, but this consumer class previously didn’t have access to those solutions because they didn’t have phones or internet penetration. There are so many unique problems there.
Another is sending money across borders. Sending money between, say, Ethiopia and Kenya costs much more than sending money from Ethiopia to the US or Australia. Sometimes the average fees eat up about 20% of the money you send. That doesn’t work if your family is split between countries, you have friends in different countries or you’re working in different countries.
A startup called Chipper Cash kicked off in 2018. You may or may not have heard of it. It became a $3 billion company in just four years. They’ve dropped the fees so you can now pay across countries very cheaply. Again, it’s a problem people couldn’t overcome without technology and the internet, but now they can.
Anything that gives people in these emerging markets access to something they’ve been shut out of is a huge opportunity. I think there’s even more opportunity when you go a notch down. There are all these solutions that the middle class can now access because they have phones and internet access—rentals or sending money across borders, for example. But the real opportunity is building for people who aren’t middle class: the bottom of the pyramid, living on less than $2 or $4 a day. Building products for them is really interesting. You can reach and serve many more people who aren’t middle class yet and have been shut out, and give them access to inclusion in that way.
There are a lot of examples, but if I keep going, I’ll probably ramble.
The role of governments in Africa#
James: You mentioned high interest rates for getting a mortgage. I’m interested in your perspective on the role of governments and central banks in Africa. I guess the stereotype is that there’s a lot of corruption that prevents growth in these areas, or that someone might try to do something cool but someone in government doesn’t let them. At least, I’ve heard stories like that, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say.
What is the role there? How have you seen it change over time? Has it improved? What can startups and companies do to support that situation?
Caleb: It is a stereotype, but I think it makes sense because we’ve had crazy instances where a government has said, “We’re turning off the internet for a month.” That happens, and those are fairly big problems for founders, especially those building in multiple markets. It’s also part of why many founders say, “We need to get out of just one country. We need to be in multiple.” It’s a stereotype, but it’s fair and founded in what’s happened historically.
I think it’s a risk, and we need government on board for societal change. If we’re going to push a whole continent forward, government needs to work alongside tech and support it rather than fight it.
We have examples where that’s happened. Kenya, for instance, allowed Safaricom, a massive telecom provider, to use M-Pesa and get started with it in 2007. That really pushed Kenya forward as a country, and its economy has done a lot better than those of many neighbouring countries. Rwanda is another example. President Kagame said, in effect, “We need to rebuild, so we’re going to build up our tech scene and infrastructure and make sure this is a hub for tech.” We’re seeing it work the other way, where governments collaborate.
We do need government on board. But some of the best tech moves too fast for government, and my hope is that great technologies and solutions to big problems move and grow so quickly that they hit mass adoption before governments can mess with them. We’ve seen that happen with Facebook, Amazon and Google. I would love to see it happen with more African founders who are solving hard problems.
I don’t know whether that’s true; I guess we’ll see. But I hope tech that solves fundamental problems can sidestep government until it’s big enough that it can’t be removed. Look at M-Pesa in Kenya: if you removed it, Kenya would be in a lot of trouble. It’s what the country runs on.
James: That’s exciting. You made a great point about companies in the West moving faster than governments can keep them down. Hopefully we can start to see more examples of that in Africa as well.
Personal Learning from Africa#
James: One more question about Africa, and perhaps a more personal one: what have been some of your biggest personal learnings from operating there and seeing people work there? Is there anything you’ve taken away from being part of it?
Caleb: It’s hard to put into words, but one learning is about the sense of community there. I think that speaks to Africa as a continent and to the different cultures in Africa, where hospitality and caring come first. I see that in the founders I talk to and the people working and building on the continent. It’s not about, “How do I take?” It’s about, “How do I support and help as much as I can?”
I thought that culture was limited to my family, but it has been replicated in my interactions with people through work. That’s been really cool.
There’s something else. It was a feeling I had when I went to Ethiopia, and I think it’s even more real now: there’s so much potential for the continent. This is pretty privileged, but if you have the tools or capacity, there is space to create whatever you want. Our founders are a testament to that, when you see what they’re creating.
As a member of the diaspora going back to the continent, it feels that way as well. We’re seeing a big movement of great people who lived in Africa but moved overseas coming back to build on the continent because they realise how much untapped potential there is. In some ways, it’s a more hospitable place than other countries.
I think we’re going to see a big resurgence—one of my friends put this really well, but I’ve forgotten the word—of people coming back to the continent. That will be really cool to see over the next five to 10 years.
Caleb at EntryLevel#
James: That’s exciting. I love your energy about this stuff. It’s super cool, and I’m excited to see a lot of the growth and development happening there.
One thing I want to touch on is your role at EntryLevel and the idea of reskilling: gaining skills and transitioning career paths. Could you give a quick introduction to EntryLevel and how that story has unfolded?
Caleb: EntryLevel exists to plug a gap. If you’re looking for a job, especially out of university or between careers, it takes a while to find the right one. The recruitment process is hard. It’s even harder if you want to reskill for a new job and learn new skills to pivot careers.
In some cases, people think their option is to go back to university and study again, which takes way too long. If you pursue formal education, you might learn how to become a developer in three to four years. By the time you finish, the coding language you’re using is different. Our institutions aren’t currently built for mass reskilling.
On the other side, if you’re hiring talent, it takes far too long to find people. We think there’s something in between, where you can reskill people quickly and teach them how to do a job in 30, 60 or 90 days. At the end, they can be placed in a company or find their next thing.
We’ve built a platform that teaches you how to do a job within that period. EntryLevel is a reskilling platform that teaches people how to do roles very quickly.
Caleb’s reskilling journey#
James: That’s super cool. How have you approached reskilling and learning new things in your own life? You’re someone who’s across a lot of things and has a lot of skills. How have you gone about the reskilling process in your journey?
Caleb: I’m fortunate that I never took on a very technical role. Many of my roles didn’t require the hard skills that something like data analysis or product management would. I did learn some no-code stuff, but that was out of interest rather than for a role.
Until recently, I’ve almost never had direct clarity about where I wanted my career to go. I’ve never thought, “I need to reskill for this role and put my time and effort into that.” I’ve been able to learn little bits of things, but I’ve never had a holistic experience where I could say, “Now I’m proficient in this skill and can do this role.” That’s also where EntryLevel comes in.
It was part of my experience at university. I was learning to do law, but it was going to take me five years on top of my Bachelor of Arts. It just felt too long. When I left my law degree, I thought, “This law degree is inhibiting me. It’s preventing me from continuing with my career rather than enabling it.” Five years is ages. That’s where the need really resonates: how do we do this as quickly as possible?
Traits of successful EntryLevel learners#
James: I think you’re a great example of someone who’s gone out and done a whole bunch of stuff. When we spoke recently, you said many of the people involved with EntryLevel aren’t even in Australia; they’re all over the world.
You’re exposed to people who succeed through the programs, do well and then get jobs afterwards. Have you thought about their common threads? Are there things that someone who performs well in the reskilling program and then gets a job tends to do particularly well?
Caleb: Definitely. There are quite a few examples. We get testimonials and posts in one of our channels. Our whole thing is reskilling a billion people, and each week we get a couple of stories: this person got a job, this person landed a gig and told us about it, or someone tagged us in something. We definitely see it.
I spent quite a bit of time at the beginning talking to people and trying to understand how they landed their roles. One learning—which I think applies to anything—is that transitioning jobs when you’re very serious about it comes with, first, a firm commitment: “I want this job, so this is what I’m going for.” Second, you need to be particular about what you need to learn. Third, you learn those things. Fourth, you actively apply throughout the entire process.
We capture someone at one part of their reskilling process, ideally, but reskilling, transitioning roles or getting into a new role takes about six to nine months if you’re starting from scratch with no other skills. The people who succeed have planned how they’re going to learn, take initiative and try everything.
I think the same applies if you’re starting a company or trying to build something from scratch: you need to try relentlessly and throw darts at the air until something lands. That’s what the people who find roles through our program have in common.
James: That’s cool. One thing I’ve been thinking about a lot is clarity about what you want for your own life. You mentioned that in your answer: these people are clear about the end state they want.
Earlier, you said you’d been unsure where your career would go, but recently you’ve discovered, or had moments of clarity about, where you want to take things. For people who don’t yet have a particular thing they want to pursue—and perhaps the journey is different for everyone—do you have any words of wisdom while they’re still hunting for something that really excites them?
Caleb: Definitely. To add to that point, there’s a really good book on productivity called Getting Things Done by David Allen. One of his points is that the first thing you do if you want to get anything done is figure out exactly why: who are you in the world, and what does this mean to you? Otherwise, there’s dissonance between yourself and the task. If you’re doing things for the sake of it, you’ll never get into them in the same way someone else does—or you might, but then you’ll ask, “Why do I do that?” It’s so important to understand what that is for you.
For me, it was a combination of what I care about in the world, what I think I can do and what I’m good at. It was also a lot of testing. To be honest, it was heaps of testing.
A better approach than declaring, “I want to do this thing,” might be cancelling out the things you don’t want to do. I tried law and thought, “I don’t want to do law. That’s not the field I want.” Then I tried nonprofits and thought, “It feels good, but it isn’t a place I want to stay.” I tried policy and realised, “This also isn’t the place I want to be. I don’t want to build a career here.”
For me, it was more a process of elimination: I know why I’m doing it, so let me try all these ways to get there. Then I eliminated everything that didn’t work.
Don’t stress about finding the right thing. Try as many things as you can that seem like they might be enjoyable, then figure out what works and what doesn’t. You can’t really think your way to the next thing; you need to experience it.
Caleb’s Inspirations#
James: We’re on a deep thread at the moment, and I’d like to continue it. I’ve got a few more deep, personal questions to finish with. One is about inspiration. Is there a person or thing that inspires you—perhaps someone you look up to, a mentor, or someone you aspire to be like? Is there anyone or anything in your life that fulfils that role?
Caleb: To be honest, this might sound cocky, but there are definitely people who inspire me. I’ll get to that. When I used to put people on pedestals, I realised they were humans as well. Instead of saying, “I want to be like this person,” I reframed it as, “These are the traits I want from this person. I want to be as good at investing as them.”
I turned it from, “I want to be like this investor,” or, “I want to have this person’s intellect,” into, “How do I become a better investor than this person? How do I have more intellect than this person?” I reframed it from, “I really look up to you,” to, “I want that, so I’m going to work towards it.” I’m competitive in my own head with the people I look up to. I don’t know whether that sounds cocky, but that’s how I think about it.
I think a lot of my own community—the people I spend time with and hang out with—are people I really look up to, and that’s why I spend time with them. They’re super empathetic or intelligent, brilliant investors or great operators. You’ve had a few of the people I surround myself with on the podcast. I look up to them, and they’re also my peers.
It’s been really cool to switch from looking up to and idolising people to thinking, “I want to be more like them,” bringing those people in and keeping them close. I learn a lot from that.
James: I think that’s a great point. If you idolise someone too much, perhaps you’ll almost never be as good as they are. You’ll think, “I wish I were as good as them. I’m just the little boy who can’t do anything. I’ll never be that good.”
Whereas, if you view them more as an equal and really strive to be as good as them, as you said, it’s a slight reframe. It becomes, “We’re both capable of the same things, and I’m working towards being as capable as you. I’m on the journey.” That makes sense.
Caleb: Exactly. Idolising people is fine, but one frame of mind really pushes your self-belief. I’d rather have that than say, “I really love this person.” It’s more like, “I’m striving to be that person or better, or even to have that person respect me.”
Most worthwhile investment of time or money#
James: That’s cool. I like that a lot. One more question on a similar thread: this is a classic Tim Ferriss question, but in getting to where you are today, what has been your most worthwhile investment of time or money? Is there anything you’ve invested in that, looking back, really propelled you?
Caleb: There are probably two things, and they’re generic, so I’m sorry they’re not straightforward answers.
One is relationships. Almost to a fault, I invest a lot of time in relationships: maintaining them, making sure I’m connecting with and appreciating people, and being present. That has been one of the best investments because those relationships bring about amazing opportunities. Many of the opportunities I’ve had have come from people I’ve known, people who appreciated that I gave them the time, or people to whom I’ve given as much as I could.
Those relationships have paid off a lot. They’ve brought me people who back and support me, and whom I really want to support as well. My group of peers, the people I work with and my network are some of the best things you can invest in.
On the personal side, one of the best investments I’ve made and systems I’ve had is called The Elephants. It’s a group—have you heard of it, James?
James: No.
Caleb: Okay, cool. Much of the tech scene is familiar with it because an article about it got pretty big. You have a group of people who meet every week to discuss how their week went. You set professional, physical, financial, career and other goals for 10 years, three years, one year, three months and one month, and then do weekly reviews.
That long-term view frames your goals. You can say, “Okay, that’s my 10-year goal, and this is how everything feeds into it.” The weekly accountability with people you really trust is no-bullshit: this is what happened this week, this is what I struggled with and this is what I’m thinking right now.
That support network and the people I do it with are amazing. The system means it isn’t just me who’s invested in my goals; it’s my team. If I don’t do something, I’m not just disappointing myself, I’m disappointing the guys. That has definitely been one of the best investments I’ve made.
James: That sounds so good. I would participate in one of those in a heartbeat. Creating a long-term vision for yourself is one of the hardest things. Breaking it down into yearly and monthly goals turns the dream into things you can actually do. The accountability is also extremely powerful and useful.
Caleb: Accountability is so overpowered. It’s scary how powerful it is. If you have accountability for something, it makes you do things. That’s why I only turn on the accountability trigger when I know I need to do something. Otherwise, I’m like, “No, no, I don’t need that yet.”
James: That’s super good. We haven’t got much time left, but there was a TED Talk—I don’t know whether it’s still up—from probably a few years ago called “Extreme Productivity.” The guy who gave it had bruises on his face. He was talking about extreme productivity and accountability to the point of physical punishment if you didn’t do something, which is why it’s called extreme.
Caleb: That’s so hectic.
James: The guy had done some pretty cool stuff and was obviously giving a TED Talk as well, which is pretty cool. It was an interesting TED Talk. I don’t know whether it’s still up, but I remember seeing it.
Advice for Graduates#
James: That’s extreme. Don’t do this sort of thing. Anyway, I remembered that while we were talking. Sidetrack. We’re right at the end now, so I’ve got one last question for you, Caleb. It’s a question I ask all the guests: if you were graduating—or perhaps quitting university early—again now, what advice would you give someone at that stage in their life?
Caleb: The main thing is to take it easy. You have so much time ahead of you. Your twenties are made for screwing up. You’re supposed to screw up as many times as you want in your twenties, and it’s cool.
There’s quite a lot of safety here. If everything goes wrong, you can probably get a job somewhere, or you might have a support network to help you out. Don’t worry too much if things don’t go well in your twenties. It’s meant to be kind of shit, and also really fun.
I’m definitely experiencing that now, where I think, “Why don’t I have my shit together in some aspects of my life?” Then I tell myself, “It’s cool. It’s cool.”
Have as much fun as you can, do things you enjoy and say yes to as many things as you can that are helpful for you.
Connect with Caleb#
James: Bang. That’s great advice. You’ve given us a lot of wisdom in the chat today, Caleb, and I really appreciate it. For the folks listening, if they want to investigate more about you, find out more about what you do and follow you in various places, where should they go?
Caleb: I share a lot of what I’m doing in Africa on LinkedIn, where I’m just Caleb Maru—M-A-R-U, C-A-L-E-B. I should post a bit on Twitter, where I’m also Caleb Maru.
James: Nice. Get around it, folks. It’s been fantastic having you on the show today, Caleb. I really appreciate you spending some time with us, and we’ll catch you around soon.
Caleb: Thanks, James. This was super fun.
Outro#
James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways—the things I learned from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.
Thanks so much for listening again today, and we’re looking forward to seeing you next week.