This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
Gene: There was a recent survey from The Conference Board which said that 48 per cent of 25- to 35-year-olds don’t have job satisfaction. Among 55- to 65-year-olds in America, 52 per cent don’t have job satisfaction. That’s sad to me. Shame on the older people for not figuring it out. I want to tell you young adults: figure it out. Find that thing you love. Don’t give up your dreams, and figure out how to make a career doing it.
Intro#
James: Hello and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is the chairman of Rice Cohen International, and he’s one of the top executive recruiters in the world.
He’s recently co-authored a book with his daughter, Courtney, called Grad to Grown-Up, where they share 68 tips to excel in your personal and professional life. Please welcome to the show today, Gene Rice.
Gene: James, thank you for inviting me. I look forward to our conversation, my friend.
James: Thanks, mate. It’s great to have you on all the way from America as well. It’s fantastic to have these conversations with people like yourself. I’d love to start today by talking about some of your experiences in executive recruitment, trying to connect people to jobs and that whole process.
Questions Gene asks to ensure a good fit#
James: What sort of questions do you ask someone to try to work out where they might be best suited?
Gene: My firm was a retained executive search firm. The difference is that clients would come to us, pay us a fee and work exclusively with us. We got paid whether we made the placement or not, so we really became a consultant to the client.
Thank God we made most of the placements, but when we interviewed people to see whether they were a good fit, there were questions I would always include. I’ve placed over a thousand C-level executives, and my company has placed tens of thousands. Even before I shared information about what my client was looking for, I would ask questions to make sure it was a good fit.
I would ask, “In your own career, when have you been the happiest professionally, and what was going on that made you feel that way?” Then I would follow up: “In your current role, what do you enjoy most? If you were the CEO of your current company, what would you change about the company? What would you change about your role?” That would give us insight into whether there was any pain or anything they were unhappy about. Then I would always say, “If I gave you a magic wand and said you could design the ideal next position for yourself, what would you create? What would the company be doing? What would the culture be like? What would your role be like?”
I encourage candidates to ask themselves those simple questions. Their answers gave me a snapshot: can my client offer the things that made this candidate happiest and the things they enjoy most? If so, I could say, “I called you about a specific client of ours for whom we’re doing a retained search. Let me share how they could match the things you’ve told me.”
In the 30 years I’ve been doing executive search, there are three things I’ve identified that will make not only a good short-term fit between a candidate and a company but, more importantly, a good long-term fit. I always encourage people to look for these three things.
The first applies to everyone, from someone in an entry-level role to a senior role: you should feel that by joining this firm, you can come in, add value and make a contribution. You should feel, “I can join this firm and add something here.”
Equally importantly, after a year at a new firm, you should be able to look yourself in the mirror and say, “By joining this company, I’ve grown professionally in these ways.” You have to contribute, but you also have to grow. For a young adult, that professional growth is probably more important.
The third and most important thing is where a lot of people, especially young adults, go astray. The first two can be present, but if the third is not, I’m going to strongly recommend that this is not the right place for you. You should not only respect the person you’re reporting to and the people you’ll be working closely with; you should like them enough personally that, if you had to break bread with them over a business lunch or dinner, it wouldn’t be something you dreaded doing. Personal relationships are critical.
For a young adult, that immediate supervisor is the most important because, if you go in and hate him or her, you’re going to be unhappy and looking for a new position in a very short period of time. Those are the things I would encourage your audience to look for.
Those things have helped me in my executive search career, as well as helping people feel that it’s a good match.
James: I think that’s a great checklist for people. I certainly liked what you said about the growth aspect of a role being important in the early days, and being able to say that you’ve learnt a certain amount by working at that company. Especially when you’re young, there’s a lot to learn. If you’re not learning, something is a little bit wrong, so you should certainly look out for that.
Gene: I’ll add one other thing for your audience. This is something my firm created and used. Some of the biggest search firms in the world—Korn Ferry, Spencer Stuart and Heidrick & Struggles—have come to us and used my firm to hire some of their senior staff.
We’ve shared this with them, but I would encourage your audience to do it too. Before you go to an interview, identify what attracts you to the company and the position. Why are you willing to take the time to interview with this company? Sometimes you don’t know much before the first interview, but you can do your research. You can look online, Google the company, read its mission statement and find out what the firm is all about. I would encourage candidates to keep a sheet of paper after every interview.
My search professionals would do this with our candidates. We would ask, “What are the reasons you’re interested in this position? What’s attracting you?” After every interview, we would ask, “Did those reasons hold true? Did any new reasons surface? What questions or concerns must be addressed before you’re in a position to make the best decision for you and your family about whether this is the right company for you?”
At a certain point, we might suggest reasons they hadn’t mentioned because we knew they were advantages. Maybe the company had a better pension plan, a longer holiday policy or a new product coming out. By the end of the interviewing process, after three, four or five interviews, there should be 12, 13 or 14 reasons why they’re interested. Money can be one of them, James, but if money is the only thing driving you to a new job, you shouldn’t take that job. As soon as someone else offers you a little more money, you’ll leave.
You’ll end up being a ping-pong ball, and it will affect your career. I encourage people to identify why they’re taking the time to interview and, at the end, why they want to join this firm in this position.
James: That’s really beneficial. You mentioned being a ping-pong ball in terms of money and how that can be detrimental to your career. We hear a lot about how changing roles can be good from a money perspective, particularly early on, but I’m interested to hear how it can be seen as negative when you do that.
Gene: With what’s going on with COVID, some of the rules have changed, but only in the short term, in my opinion. I can’t tell you how many clients, when we took on a retained search, would say under their qualifications, “I don’t care who the candidate is or how strong the candidate is.
“If they’ve had more than two jobs in a five-year period, I do not want to interview them. I am not interested.” Why is that? They feel the candidate has no loyalty and will leave as soon as someone offers them more money. In every position, no matter how great the company or onboarding process is, there is a learning curve and an adjustment you have to go through.
Firms don’t want people who leave the first time there’s a challenge. They want people who are going to hang in there. That’s why I say that.
James: That’s interesting. Does that apply more to senior people, or should someone in the first few years of their career still avoid doing things like that?
Gene: If they absolutely hate their job or their manager and they’re not growing professionally, then they have to look and leave. But, in my strong professional opinion, you don’t want to leave your first job too quickly. You’ve got to hang in there for at least two years.
You’ve got to learn. Otherwise, people think you’re going to bounce every time there’s any difficulty. You have to get your feet under you and stay there for a period of time. When you make decisions, you should be thinking, “Is this a place where I can spend the next five years of my career?”
As you move up and progress, companies are looking for that. They’re not looking for someone who takes a different role every two years.
Gene: I think Australia and New Zealand are very similar to the States. Because my firm was recognised, I was invited to be the keynote speaker one year at the Australia and New Zealand executive search conference in Christchurch, New Zealand.
I couldn’t accept the invitation because my kids were young, and it’s one of my greatest regrets. I think search is very similar in Australia and New Zealand to how it is here in North America.
James: As you were saying, try not to leave jobs when it gets hard or because you’ve joined a company that perhaps isn’t the right fit. If you’re going to move, it’s important to use that checklist you mentioned earlier and have at least ten reasons why this company is a good place. Being really sure about that is important.
Gene: Sometimes you can’t help making a move. Your company might be sold, or things might change. If a move had to take place for reasons outside your control, I encourage you to list the reason why when you put your résumé or CV together.
Then, instead of simply seeing that you spent only a year here and two years there, people can see the reasons behind those moves. I would put that directly on the CV or résumé.
Gene on asking for a pay rise#
James: That’s interesting. I also want to ask you about negotiating a salary, perhaps a pay rise and that kind of thing, because I’m sure you’ve been involved in situations like that. Do you have any process or recommendations for someone going through that?
Gene: Here’s what I first want your audience to know. It’s okay upfront, especially if there’s a search firm or recruiter involved, to let them know what you’re looking for from a compensation perspective. What I’ve seen, especially with young adults, is that they get the offer and automatically accept it. I want you to know that, if you’ve gone through an interviewing process and the company offers you a job, trying to negotiate that offer is not going to jeopardise the offer or cause them to take away the written offer. I always recommend getting the offer in writing.
That’s when the rules of the game change. Now they’re in control because the firm wants them. It’s perfectly okay to go back if you do it professionally. One of the chapters in Grad to Grown-Up talks about how to negotiate the offer once you get it. It’s perfectly okay to say, “I’m really excited,” but you have to do it the right way.
You send an email back and say, “I am really excited about your company, and here are the reasons why. I know I can really contribute, and here are the reasons why. Thank you so much for your offer, but after reviewing it, I was hoping to get a higher base salary.” If there are reasons for that—maybe you have to move or you’ll be commuting further—you explain them.
If there is no other reason, perhaps you know that some of the other companies you interviewed with were discussing a higher base salary. You say, “If you can raise the base salary by this amount, I’m prepared to resign and start on such-and-such a date.” You have to know how to go back and ask. First, tell them why you’re attracted to their company and why you believe you’ll do a great job for them.
Then ask for what you want, but offer them something in return: “If you’re willing to do this, I’m ready to resign and start on this date.” A lot of the time, they’ll meet you in the middle. They might say, “I’m sorry, you’re at the top of the range,” but at least you tried. Then you can go back again. If they won’t increase your base salary, you can ask, “If you can’t increase the base salary, could you guarantee my bonus? Could you give me a review earlier than normal, which would then qualify me for an increase? Could you give me another week’s holiday?”
You ask for other things that might not be base-salary-related and see what they say. In my experience, they will increase the base salary 60 to 65 per cent of the time. If they won’t, in another 20 to 25 per cent of cases they’ll guarantee a bonus or do an early review so they can increase your base salary.
If nothing else, I would say they’d give you an extra week’s holiday. My experience has been that, 95 per cent of the time, if you do it professionally, you can get more than the company gave you in the offer letter. I encourage people to do that. Does that answer your question?
James: It can be quite scary, or nerve-racking, to go back and say, “I’d really like a little bit more,” because you feel that, if they say no, you could lose the job and all that kind of stuff.
Gene: I want your audience to know they will not retract the offer. That’s what people are afraid of, but they will not retract it. In fact, they’ll respect you more for negotiating. There is a way of doing it, though. You don’t simply go back and say, “I was really hoping for a higher base salary.”
You have to do it professionally. Thank them for the offer. Tell them why you’re so excited about their company and why you know you’ll do a great job: “Here are the reasons why I know this is a great match.” When you ask for something, give them something in return.
“If you give it to me, I will resign immediately and start for you on such-and-such a date.” That’s how you go back professionally and address it.
James: Those are some really useful tips.
Gene: Here’s what I want to tell your audience, based on what I’ve experienced with people your age. Grad to Grown-Up was based on more than 25 years of me bringing four college interns into my company every summer for eight weeks.
These were very bright students, the large majority going into their last year of college. They competed against other candidates for the internship, so they were bright and talented. When I brought them into my company, I felt that they were investing eight weeks in my firm.
I felt it was important to spend some time with them, so once a week I spent two hours with them. It started as “Gene’s life lessons”: the things I wish I’d known going into my last year of university. What came out of it were all their questions: “Can you talk about this? Can you talk about this?”
I was initially amazed at how ill-prepared the large majority of them were to start not only their professional careers but their personal lives. My interns went on to become lawyers, doctors, accountants, engineers and professional athletes.
A lot of them came back to me years later. They had pursued a job or career because someone influential—a parent, grandparent or teacher—had said, “You should go into this field. You can make a good living.” So many went into it and, once they did, hated what they were doing. They went to school for all those years and then hated the work when they finally did it. Two of my former interns went to two of the best law schools in America, NYU and Boston College. Both graduated in the top 25 per cent of their class and went to work for big law firms.
A year into it, they hated waking up in the morning and going to work. There are two things I want to encourage your audience to do. First, pursue your passions. One of the greatest goals in life should be for every human being to find something they sincerely love doing, and then do it well enough to create a career from it. If you can find that thing you love and make a living doing it, you don’t wake up in the morning to go to work or to a job. You wake up to go to something you sincerely love.
In my personal experience, your health is better and your personal relationships are better. The glass isn’t half-full; it can be overflowing, and you can have purpose in your life. I encourage your audience to do that.
When they find something they think they’re passionate about, even if they want to be a lawyer or an accountant, I encourage them to do internships, even unpaid ones. I’ll give you an example. My daughter, with whom I wrote the book, went to one of the best universities here, Lehigh University.
She double-majored in English and economics and graduated at the top of her class. At her university, if she achieved a certain grade level, they would pay for her advanced degree, and they did. She thought she wanted to be a lawyer. Based on my experience, I said, “Courtney, let’s see if we can find a small law firm that will take you in this summer and expose you to what it’s like to be a lawyer. We’ll tell them you’re willing to work for free.” She found a small law firm where a partner took her in. He exposed her to every part of being a lawyer—the research and administrative work—and took her into the courtroom multiple times.
At the end of that summer, she had no interest in being a lawyer. She had thought that, coming out of this prestigious university, she should be doing something like that. Her passion had always been teaching in the classroom, but she thought that was beneath her education. She became a high school English teacher. She loves waking up, and her students love her. Maybe she doesn’t make as much money as she might have as a lawyer, but she’s much happier and has purpose in her life.
I encourage your audience to follow their dreams. Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Do not give up your passions. Try to find purpose in your life. I strongly encourage people to do an internship before they graduate from university and say, “This is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life.” That’s my experience.
There was a recent survey from The Conference Board which said that 48 per cent of 25- to 35-year-olds don’t have job satisfaction. Among 55- to 65-year-olds in America, 52 per cent don’t have job satisfaction. That’s sad to me. Shame on the older people for not figuring it out. I want to tell you young adults: figure it out. Find that thing you love. Don’t give up your dreams, and figure out how to make a career doing it.
How Gene would find his passion today#
James: Have you thought about how you would go about finding that passion? Interning for free somewhere you think you might like and testing it out is a great approach. Is there anything else you would say to your younger self about trying to find your passion and something that really clicked with you?
Gene: I’m going to give you a real-life example, because I mentor a lot of young adults. My wife and I started a charity that helps children aged 10 to 18 who come from underserved environments and have a passion but not the money to pursue it.
Our charity is called the Plant a Seed Inspire a Dream Foundation. We step in and match the young person with a teacher, mentor or coach. It could be for guitar or singing lessons, every sport you could imagine, dance, gymnastics or whatever it might be.
Another charity had heard about ours. In America, these young people are called foster kids. I don’t know whether you have that in Australia, but basically their parents have either died or given them up, and they live with other families in foster homes.
This charity would help a foster child get into college. If they went to college and couldn’t get their first job, it would contact mentors who might be able to offer guidance. The charity called me because it knew me through our charity and said, “We have this great young man graduating from Temple University.
“Would you speak to him? He’s having a very hard time getting his first job.” I agreed and scheduled a call with him. The first thing I asked was, “What was your major?” He said, “Sports management.” Everyone in America wants to go into sports management, but there are no jobs.
You usually get the few jobs there are because you know somebody—a relative or family friend. It’s very difficult to break into the sports management industry in America. I don’t know how it is in Australia, but it’s very difficult here. I asked him, “How passionate are you about this?”
He said, “I am extremely passionate.” I asked what he had done so far. He was from Philadelphia and said, “I’ve sent my résumé to the Philadelphia Eagles, the Philadelphia 76ers, the Philadelphia Union and the Philadelphia Flyers.” I asked what had happened. He said, “No one’s got back to me.”
I said, “Let me explain rule number one. If they were looking for someone with absolutely no experience, they’re going to reach out to you and the other thousand résumés they received. You’re never going to get a job that way. I’m going to ask you two questions. How passionate are you? I will help you, but we’re going to have to go on a journey together.
“If we get lucky, you’ll probably end up in Des Moines, Iowa, working for the lowest-level baseball franchise there is. Are you willing to pick up from Philadelphia and move to Des Moines?” He said, “I’ll move anywhere.” I said, “Okay. The second thing I need you to tell me is your plan B. If we go on this journey together and strike out, which we might, I want to know what other kind of job you’ll take.
“What other kind of role would interest you? I don’t want to start this without a backup plan.” He said, “I would take a sales role.” I said, “Great. There are many different sales jobs we can pursue.”
Here’s what we did, and what I want your audience to understand. During my executive search career, because I was on several lists of the world’s top executive recruiters, I received between 80 and 120 résumés every week. I couldn’t even read them all. If I could help one person out of those hundred résumés, that was probably a lot. The retained executive search industry works by specialising in a vertical market and becoming the top executive recruiter in that field. My fields were management consulting and education technology, or edtech.
We placed the managing partner at McKinsey, the managing partner at KPMG and the CEO of Mercer Consulting. If you came from that industry, I could probably help. You could be the CEO of the best medical device company in the world, but I wouldn’t be the right person because my relationships aren’t in that industry.
However, twice a year on average, I would get an email from a young person like you. It would say something like this:
“I have a passion for the executive search or human resources industry. I’ve done some research and know you’re a thought leader in the industry. Would you spend a few minutes with me and give me some guidance?” I would always respond to that type of email and spend time with that young person.
I want you to know that 99 per cent of senior executives would do the same. If for no other reason, they would want someone to help their family member. I would always do that.
The strategy I followed with this young man was to have him research and identify every C-level executive within 100 miles of Philadelphia. I wanted him to start with the major franchises—the 76ers, the Eagles and the Union—and then go down through Triple-A, Double-A and Single-A.
I said, “Once we strike out there, we’ll expand in 300-mile radiuses. If we get lucky, you’ll end up in Des Moines, Iowa.” He did the research, identified the C-level executives’ names and found their email addresses. I helped him write the email, and he sent it out. He called me back and said, “The chief marketing officer of the Philadelphia 76ers says he can spend some time with me on Friday.” I helped him prepare for that call and said, “When the call is over, I want you to call me.”
Afterwards, he called me and I asked how it had gone. He said, “I think it went well. He invited me to meet four people on Tuesday.” I said, “Wait a second. He’s inviting you to meet four people on Tuesday.
“That means there’s a job. He’s not going to waste your time and his staff’s time if there isn’t one.” I prepared him for how to conduct those interviews. He ended up being hired in the corporate sales department of the Philadelphia 76ers, and he’s now working for one of the big hockey franchises on the West Coast.
To answer your question, I would tell your audience not to be intimidated by contacting a senior person and asking for guidance and help. Be prepared for that call. Bring questions. Ask whether they know anyone who might be looking for someone, and share what you’re looking for.
Ask whether you can stay in contact. If it goes well, there’s a position and they introduce you, you’ll be received very differently within that firm than if you sent your résumé in blind. That’s my first piece of advice.
My second is this: in chess, there’s a grandmaster; in science, there’s a Nobel Prize winner. I think one goal every human being should have is to become a grandmaster of interviewing. Learn how to interview like a grandmaster.
Why is that so important? When you’re interviewing for the job you really want, you’ll be interviewing against four or five other people. The grandmaster interviewer gets the job and gets paid better.
In Grad to Grown-Up, we take people through how to become a grandmaster interviewer. It’s a goal I want every young adult to have. Here in the States, students come out of universities and go to the career centre for advice.
The career centres don’t really have hands-on experience, so they all prepare students to interview in the same way. The students then interview exactly like every other university graduate. You want to separate yourself. You want to become that grandmaster.
Becoming a grandmaster of interviewing#
James: That was a really good story. Thanks for sharing it. It’s interesting to hear about that process and what you were able to achieve. It shows that reaching out is something we can all do, and it can be life-changing if things go the right way.
On becoming a grandmaster of interviewing, what are the key things that could set you up? Is it preparing in a certain way, conducting yourself during the interview or something else? I’m interested to hear some of the key things.
Gene: Let me take you through it, although I probably won’t do it justice because there are five different chapters in the book about each stage. First, you’ve got to do upfront research before the interview. There are five key points to becoming a grandmaster, and I’ll take you through them.
I’ll start by asking you a question. Let’s fast-forward ten years. You’re an executive with a company and have a key position to fill. You interview five candidates. At the end of the interview process, you and everyone else involved say, “Two of these candidates are exceptional.
“Both can do a phenomenal job, they have equal experience and both want the job.” You have only one job to offer but two great candidates. If you were making the decision as the manager, what might make you choose one over the other?
James: Maybe it would be the one I get along with best.
Gene: All ties go to the candidate who made the best personal connection with you. The first step to becoming a grandmaster is being able to establish chemistry and rapport with the person you’re meeting. How do you do that? Beforehand, look at their LinkedIn profile.
Google them and get as much background information as you can. Try to find out where they went to school so you have something to talk about when you go in. I always coached candidates not to go straight into the interview. Try to make a connection.
If you can’t do research beforehand, steal with your eyes when you go in: look around the room. If there’s a picture of the person with their child playing soccer or a picture of them fishing, your job is to establish rapport. Talk about the weather.
Talk about how long they’ve been with the company, but establish chemistry. When the interview is over and you follow up within 24 hours with an email thanking them, I’m going to ask you to include that personal connection. That’s the first thing: establish chemistry and rapport.
For the second step, let me ask you a question. When you went to school, how much better would you have done on a test if you had the answers beforehand?
James: A lot better.
Gene: You’d do a lot better. That’s the second thing. Many people receive a job description they saw online, or perhaps a recruiter tells them what the company is looking for, and they assume that’s all the company wants.
I want your audience to understand that different people contribute different parts when a job description is put together. HR or talent acquisition then assembles that description.
Everyone you meet in an interview will have slightly different criteria. The direct boss will look for something very specific. The HR person will look for something very different, as will a peer or senior executive interviewing the candidate.
I encourage people, early on after establishing rapport, to ask a simple question: “I was very interested in coming in and meeting with you today. I know we have a limited amount of time together.
“I’ve read the job description, but would you mind sharing what’s most important to you in the background of the candidate you want to bring in for this role?” Then shut up. The first two or three things they tell you are the most important things to that person.
Your responsibility before that interview ends is to share how you match their criteria. That’s the second step to becoming a grandmaster. You have to work on the wording; each person asks that question a little differently. If you can get the answers to the test before taking it, try to get them.
The third step is that, in every interview, you’ll be asked a series of questions. They could be behaviour-based questions, which are very common. Grad to Grown-Up explains exactly what behaviour-based interviewing is and the kinds of questions to expect.
You need to understand how to answer those questions professionally, and we teach people how to do that. Equally, a time will come when they ask, “Do you have any questions for me?” This is where many young adults go astray.
I’ll give you an example. Someone recently asked me to help a young engineering graduate from one of the top universities here, Penn State University. He had a great GPA, looked like he’d walked out of GQ magazine and had a very professional appearance, yet he had nine interviews and no offers. Coming from that school with an engineering degree and his GPA, he should have received four or five offers from those nine interviews.
When I asked him to take me through the interviews, I found that he was asking what I call “win-lose questions”. I want your audience to know that every question someone has should be answered before they accept or decline a job, but there’s a time and place to ask it.
At one company, when asked whether he had any questions, he said, “Yes. I noticed your stock price has been declining. Can you tell me why?” That’s a question you may want to ask, but wait until you have the offer. At another company, he said, “I did some research and know your CEO has some sexual harassment charges against him. How is that going?” People automatically think he feels negatively about the company.
I cover win-win questions. Your audience can go to the Grad to Grown-Up website, gradtogrownup.com, and download for free the win-win questions they should ask in an interview. They’re very basic questions, but they make a real difference.
That’s the third skill in becoming a grandmaster: answering their questions appropriately and asking the right questions. The fourth is that many people leave an interview thinking it went well, without realising that the interviewer might have had one or two concerns.
Everyone who conducts interviews will have some concern about a candidate. Sometimes the candidate is overqualified; sometimes they’re underqualified. As an executive search professional, the only time I became concerned was when there were no concerns, because concerns are buying signals. Accept that they’ll have concerns. What’s not acceptable is failing to give them an opportunity to verbalise those concerns to you.
If the concern is based on a false premise, you can overcome it and get agreement that it’s no longer a concern. If it’s real, minimise it and maximise your strengths. Towards the end of the interview, say something like, “I was excited about meeting with you and, after spending time with you, my interest has increased”—if that’s true—“and here’s why. Also, based on what you’ve shared about what you’re looking for in a candidate’s background, I believe I’m a strong fit, and here’s why. Do you have any concerns about whether I could add value to ABC Company in this role?” Then shut up.
If they come back with a concern based on a false premise, simply say, “I can understand why you might feel that way, but let me share why I don’t believe that’s a concern.” Address it and finish by asking, “Does that make you feel better about that concern?”
If the concern is real, imagine someone said to me, “I’m completely bald. I need someone with a full head of hair.”
“I cannot grow any more hair, but I have a work ethic that’s second to none. I’ll be the first person in the office in the morning and the last to leave. You’ll find nobody who will do more research on their own and nobody more loyal to the firm.
“You’ll find no one the staff will enjoy working with more than me. If given the opportunity for this role, I promise you’ll never regret the decision.” You can’t change a real concern, but you can return to your strengths. That’s the fourth skill in becoming a grandmaster.
The fifth and final skill is to understand the next step before you finish an interview. We take people through how to do that professionally. I also want your audience to know this: if you’re taking the time to interview, you have one goal and one goal only, James—to get the offer. Whether you accept it is your decision, but go into an interview saying, “This is my goal.
“I’m going to do everything in my ability to get this offer.” It’s perfectly okay to turn something down, but I want you, not the company, to be in the driver’s seat.
There’s also a way to follow up professionally, and that’s all in the book as well.
James: Thanks so much for that. For people listening, getting a copy of the book would be a really good move, because they can explore these topics in much more detail. I have another question for you, Gene.
What parts of the book are underappreciated?#
James: You’ve spoken about the book a lot, and lots of people have read it now. Are there any parts you think are underappreciated, that people don’t speak about enough or that you wish people were more interested in?
Gene: The book offers 68 tips on creating a professional and personal life you can be proud of. When the agent was shopping the book, all the publishers wanted me to make the entire book about careers and job searches. That’s not the book I wanted to write.
The reason is that my 30 years in executive search taught me one thing: there’s no real professional success without personal success. The book’s first section is about life. It includes tips on life and understanding your foundation.
It explains what a linchpin is and the things you need to do every week to stay mentally and physically healthy. It covers the importance of gratitude and how to establish it. Then it goes into job searches and careers: after getting a job, how do you need to show up?
There’s no elevator to success, James. You’ve got to take the stairs, and we discuss what taking the stairs means. The fourth section is personal finance: how I went about creating great wealth and the simple things people can follow. It covers understanding the stock market, how I invested, what I did and the mistakes I made.
The last and hardest section was health and relationships. I’ll share a couple of things that might give you some insight into the book. The book had been out for one month when, two weeks ago, I received an email from a young lawyer in New York City.
He had just read my book and said, “I’d just finished a 14-hour day and wanted to get a bite to eat, so I went into a restaurant by myself. I looked at the bar and saw an older man drinking by himself. I’d just read your book.
“One chapter is called ‘Talk to the Oldest Person in the Room’. It discusses how much knowledge and information a young person can get from a senior person, and the questions needed to open up that conversation. I figured, what the heck? I’d finished dinner.
“I went up, had a beer next to this guy and asked him some of your questions. Two and a half hours later, I’d had one of the best nights of my life. The gentleman was retired, but had been a senior writer on The Johnny Carson Show. Without reading that chapter in your book, I never would have taken it upon myself to sit next to him and ask those questions.”
Another young man from Seattle, Washington, read the book and sent me an email. The last section discusses marriage, the importance of marrying the right person and how your happiness or unhappiness can come from that decision. He was living with a young woman who was putting a lot of pressure on him to take the next step. He read the chapter and said it gave him what he needed to realise this wasn’t the person he wanted to spend the rest of his life with.
That’s why I wrote the book. If someone can get one thing like that out of those 68 tips, I don’t care if anything else happens.
That, to me, is why I wrote it. My daughter Courtney loves teaching. She was in a public school for eight years, but it was a toxic work environment. She loved the classroom, but everyone was resigning from the department and the boss was a nightmare. After writing the book, she had what she needed to go out, interview and get a new job at a great private school that embraces her.
She is so happy. Those are some of the things we didn’t talk about that are in the book and can help people.
Gene’s advice for Graduates#
James: I think that’s really cool. It’s great to hear that it covers everything from careers to everything else you’d want to know as a young person, and it’s very generous of you to put it all in one place for people.
Gene, we’re coming to the end of the interview. I ask every guest this question: if you could rewind the clock and go back to when you’d just finished university and were going out into the world, knowing what you know now and all the advice you’ve written, what would you do differently? What advice would you give yourself in that situation?
Gene: It’s funny, James. I don’t know whether I’ve shared this with you, but my career was very different. I started by owning rock-and-roll clubs in New York. I owned two clubs that booked only original music and had bands such as the Ramones, the Stray Cats, Joan Jett, Bo Diddley and Richie Havens.
I left that business because the first club was extremely successful, the second was a failure, and my wife would marry me only if I got out of that business. I then went into corporate America and worked for a division of Alcatel, a French company and an international Fortune 100 firm.
In seven years, I was promoted five times. I went from sales representative to sales manager, general manager and district manager. My last job was heading all East Coast operations, with over a thousand people reporting to me. I left that job, even though I was making a heck of a lot of money, for one reason.
I was never home at night. I travelled a great deal, we had a young family and I wanted some work–life balance. I went into executive search because I’d used search firms myself. I knew I could bring some value to it, but I never knew what I would find. I did it because I could be home at night.
It became extremely successful very quickly. What I would do differently relates to the purpose I found in executive search. Even when my firm became one of the largest retained search firms in the world, I never stopped leading searches because I found purpose in talking to executives and clients and putting a good match together.
Half the people I placed in C-level jobs had to pick up their families and move from one city to another for the role. I felt that, if I was going to move this person’s family, I had to make sure it was a good match.
I found purpose in that. I had passion and was excited. I woke up in the morning and couldn’t wait to go to work. If I could go back, I think I would try to identify that passion and purpose early on and be a little more strategic in looking for it.
I was very lucky and fortunate; many other people are not. The other thing is that every financial reward I receive from this book will be donated directly to the charity my wife and I started, the Plant a Seed Inspire a Dream Foundation, to help more children pursue their passions.
I’m a big believer in pursuing your passions and finding purpose in your life. If you can find that and make a career by working out how to pursue those things, you’ll be healthier, happier and smile more. That’s the message I want to leave your audience with.
James: Thanks so much for sharing that with us, Gene, and for sharing your personal journey. It’s really interesting to hear how you’ve got to where you are. Following this episode, where can people find out more about you and the book?
Gene: First, go to LinkedIn and search for Gene Rice—G-E-N-E, R-I-C-E—of Rice Cohen International. You can leave me a message, and I’ll respond. We have a website for the book, gradtogrownup.com, where you can download some free chapters and send me an email. The book can be purchased anywhere, including Amazon.
It has received lots of reviews so far, and the feedback has been really positive. I feel really good about that. It’s available at Walmart, Target—anywhere.
Outro#
James: Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want my takeaways—the things I learnt from this episode—please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode straight to your inbox.
Thanks so much for listening again today, and we’re looking forward to seeing you next week.