This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
Nimarta: It was no surprise that she got the job, given that she really stood out when she wrote it that way.
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a brand strategist and marketing trainer on a mission to disrupt the marketing world and help brands with a vision cut through the noise. She has grown businesses and their marketing across 50 industries in 10 different countries. She’s currently the CEO and chief strategist of marketing consultancy Disruptor Brand, where she serves brands and leaders to tell their story louder and make marketing easier. Please welcome to the show Nimarta Verma.
Nimarta: Thank you so much. Great to be here.
James: It’s great to have you here, Nimarta. Today, I want to dive into the job application process with you. I know it’s something you’re passionate about, and throughout your career you’ve applied the marketing side of things to the way you apply for jobs and to that whole process.
How Has Nimarta’s Job Application Process Changed over Time?#
James: How has your approach to getting a job—with the résumé, cover letter and related things—changed over time?
Nimarta: I started out in a way that’s probably similar to a lot of new graduates. We find a template, or we’re told there’s a certain template to follow. I would write in a really professional way and use jargon such as, “I’m enthusiastic. I’m a problem solver. I am responsible.” I would go to interviews and say the answer I thought the other person wanted to hear. I didn’t ask my own questions. My approach was, “I’m just grateful to get an interview, and hopefully they give me a job. I’m going to say anything to get the job.”
That’s how it started. Now, I’ve been able to inject my own story and personality into my résumé and cover letters. I’ve brought authenticity to them, and people really get a sense of who I am from reading those things. When I’m face to face with them, there are still nerves—I think there always will be—but now it’s a conversation. It’s about letting them get to know me while I also get to know them. It’s two parties deciding whether we’re right for each other.
James: You have a unique view and process for this. What does your résumé look like now? You’ve said that, because of your marketing background, you like to do things a little unconventionally.
How Does Nimarta Structure Her Résumé?#
James: What are some of those unconventional things, and how do you structure your résumé?
Nimarta: First of all, it’s colourful. There isn’t too much colour, but there’s a play between two colours. I also include a photo of me. A lot of people say not to do it because it’s frowned upon, but I think people might want to get a sense of who they’re speaking to. It’s a photo of me genuinely smiling, rather than a staged photo.
I start with a short summary. A lot of people write something like, “Looking to excel in a customer service capacity,” followed by more of the same. My summary says something like, “Marketing strategist. I’ve worked across these industries and am looking to widen my skill set into this area or that area. I’m interested in strategy, I love solving problems, and I find businesses challenging and exciting.” Those are the things I’m passionate about.
It’s a summary of me, my career and what I want to do next. At that point, I’m not trying to sweet-talk them by saying I’m there to serve them. I still structure it like a typical résumé in the sense that it’s chronological, starting with my latest experience and working back to the earliest.
What’s different is that, for each role, I don’t write bullet points listing roles and responsibilities. In fact, I don’t include anything about roles and responsibilities. I write a few lines saying, “Here’s what I did. Here’s what really excited me about this role. Here’s why I left, and here’s what I’m most proud of.” I tell that story consistently through each role. When a hiring manager reads the whole thing, they understand that I worked in one capacity and left for a particular reason, or that I made a particular choice. It tells the story of my career journey.
I also include things I’ve learnt: “This role really challenged me, and one of the most valuable lessons I learnt was X, Y or Z.” It really does tell the story of my career.
James: That’s quite unique. Almost everyone has a cookie-cutter résumé that says, “I worked here, here and here, and these are the three things I did.” It’s interesting that you do things quite differently. Your approach is much more personal because, ultimately, the person reading your résumé is a person too. They probably have similar thoughts.
Nimarta: Absolutely. They’re bored to death reading the same kinds of CVs over and over again. If you cover the name, they’re all the same. Everybody uses the same jargon and buzzwords and puts little keywords on their CV. I’ve been in the position of reading CVs and thinking, “Just give me something. Give me some sense that you’re a human. I want to know somebody.” I try to humanise my CV as much as possible.
Do ‘humanised’ resumes work?#
James: Do you think that approach has worked? It’s probably hard to compare unless you’ve done a form of A/B testing, such as applying for five jobs with one version and five with the other. Even then, it would be a small sample, but you might see some difference. What has the outcome been?
Nimarta: As you say, it’s a small sample, but I definitely got more responses when I used what you might call a storified or humanised CV, compared with the plain, templated version. Even if the response was, “Thanks for sending it through. You’re probably not right for us,” at least I received one. With the plain, templated version, I didn’t get many responses. You send the CV into a vortex, and there’s silence. You get nothing back.
James: How would you take someone’s cookie-cutter résumé and make it more personalised, down-to-earth and storified?
How Can Someone Humanise Their Resume?#
James: What would you look at first and say will probably make the biggest difference? How would you approach it?
Nimarta: I’ve done this quite a bit because I’ve helped a lot of people with their CVs. I start by having them talk to me about who they are and what they want: who they are in life, what they believe in and what they care about. I want to bring them out because a lot of people are so concerned with writing the CV that everybody wants to see. They’re thinking about what the other person wants and the “right” thing to say. I try to get them out of the mindset that there’s a right thing to say. We just want to tell their story.
I ask them, “You did this role. Tell me what you did and what it was like.” Once they start talking, I ask, “What did you enjoy most about that role?” They’ll answer, and I’ll say, “That’s great. Write that down.” They’ll ask, “Really?” Yes, write that down. Then I ask what they were really proud of, what they accomplished and whether they learnt a particularly valuable lesson. When they answer, I tell them to write those things down. I try to get their side of the experience.
I tell them to remove lists of roles and responsibilities. If your job is complicated—perhaps you do something with data processing and nobody knows what you do—you can explain it in one line. You don’t need to list everything you do. Tell the story instead of making lists.
I also remove jargon. Words that immediately raise red flags for me include “enthusiastic”, “passionate”, “responsible”, “strategic problem solver”, “excellent communicator” and “team player”. When I spot words like that, they have to go. They’re clichés that don’t paint a picture of the person.
James: Those words are probably on my résumé, if not almost everyone’s. It’s interesting to think about using different words to describe yourself and making your résumé unique, rather than having one that looks like everybody else’s. The same applies to the colours you mentioned earlier.
Nimarta: This is especially important for a new graduate. A lot of the new graduates I work with don’t have much relevant work experience. Some have worked in cafés or retail, or they’ve done internships, and they now want to apply for a job in their profession. We have to write about those experiences in a way that links them to their intended profession. How will the skills they learnt in retail benefit them in accounting, marketing or whatever industry they’re entering?
I might ask, “What skills did you learn in retail? Now that you’re going to become an accountant, how will those skills help you?” They might say it will help them communicate better. Great—we’ll talk about that. We need to make those connections because we have to assume the reader is lazy. They aren’t going to connect the dots, so we have to help them.
I also try to bring more of their story into the summary. What makes them passionate about their industry? Why do they want to become a marketer or an engineer? Often, they’ve been curious about something ever since they were a child. I bring out that story and tell it from the beginning, in both the cover letter and the summary.
As a new graduate, you don’t have much going for you in terms of experience. That’s simply the reality. The question is how you tell your story and engage people. A lot of new graduates mistakenly think their grades or academic accomplishments will carry the day. In reality, that isn’t what hiring managers look for. They may glance at those things, but they’re more interested in who you are and whether you’ll fit culturally and work well in the company.
James: Getting a job is almost like entering a relationship between yourself and the company. If the company isn’t right for you, you don’t want to work there either. This personalisation puts much more of you out there.
Does a ‘humanised’ resume polarise employers?#
James: Some companies might not like it, but those that do are going to like you much more because you’re sharing more of yourself. Do you agree?
Nimarta: Absolutely. Now you’re talking my language in terms of marketing. I always tell people that not everybody has to like you or buy your brand, but those who do are the ones you want. There’s room for everybody, as long as we don’t think in terms of desperation and scarcity. There’s a right job and a right role for everybody. You can get a job in a company that doesn’t fit you, but you’ll be miserable or won’t last long anyway. What’s the point?
What mistakes do people make in their resumes?#
James: You’ve looked at people’s résumés as a hiring manager and helped people create their own. What general mistakes have you seen that make you think, “Definitely don’t do that”?
Nimarta: One is using the buzzwords and jargon I mentioned before, such as “passionate”. Another is making the résumé really long, although length isn’t necessarily the issue. If you’re genuinely telling a story about yourself, it isn’t a turn-off. My CV is about two pages, so it isn’t short.
The problem is when there are lists and lists of roles and accountabilities. People have probably taken them from their job description and dumped them into the CV, which adds no value for the reader. I also see long lists of skill sets and proficiencies: “I’m a good communicator. I’m a good team player. I know these programs.” In some specialisations, the programs you know are relevant and should be listed. But I see a lot of CVs say, “I know Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint and email.” You don’t need to tell us that. Overloading a résumé with detail is a mistake.
The biggest mistake is the mindset people have when they write the CV: “This CV is going to get me the job.” I always tell people that the CV isn’t meant to get them the job, and they look shocked. The CV is meant to get you the interview. I want to interview someone who intrigues me and whom I want to learn more about. If you tell me every detail about yourself in the résumé, you’re already boring me to death. I don’t need to know more, and I may not feel the need to interview you.
You want to leave a little mystery and intrigue. Leave them thinking, “That’s interesting,” and wanting to talk to you about some of the things you wrote.
James: That’s something I’m seeing in myself, and I’m sure lots of people don’t consider it. The résumé isn’t there to get you to the end; it’s there to get you to the next step. That should influence how you structure it and what you include. You mentioned A/B testing your résumé. Have you had any other interesting experiences with this personal touch?
Nimarta’s cover letter story#
Nimarta: Once, when I was looking for a job, I got sick of the whole process—not desperate to get a job, but sick of the process. I felt so fake and thought, “What am I doing with my life?” At about 10 pm on a weeknight, I wrote a cover letter from scratch to a company.
I said, “First of all, I’m going to tell you some truths. I’m not a very good employee. I don’t like being tied to a chair, sitting in one place or being told what time to arrive and leave. I really hate that side of working. I read your job ad, and I don’t know if I believe it. I’m sceptical. You talk about a great culture, but everybody says that. What’s the catch?”
I also wrote, “I hope the person reading this is another human being like me who understands what an ordeal it is to talk myself up to somebody I don’t know through this letter, how yucky that is and how much I really want to find fulfilment and joy in a role. If you’re someone who gets it, hopefully we can talk and see whether we’re a match for each other.”
It was the most honest letter I’d ever written. I had butterflies in my stomach as I emailed it, and I thought, “I don’t know what I’ve done.” I showed it to my husband for a sense check, hoping it wasn’t too bad. He read it and asked, “Did you send this?” I said I had, and he just said, “Whoa.” I wondered what was going to happen.
I sent it at about 10 pm, and my phone rang before midday the next day. It was the company calling. It wasn’t just the manager hiring for the position; it was the CEO calling. He said the HR person had forwarded him my cover letter and told him he had to read it. He had read it several times and said it was the most incredible and honest thing he’d ever read in someone’s application. He didn’t think the role was for me, but he still wanted to talk and perhaps create a role for me because he thought I’d be a great fit for them.
It was a really cool experience. It was incredible to receive such reassuring feedback from something so honest that had made me nervous.
James: That’s incredible. I’ve often thought that I could throw away my usual cover letter and write something more fun that simply says, “This is who I am.” It’s great to hear that you had such a good experience with that, because it’s incredible what that approach can do.
I’d like to move on to interviews. You’ve done a lot of them and have probably helped people with this too. Many people enter an interview with nervous butterflies and worry that their nerves will negatively affect the experience.
Dealing with Nerves during interviews#
James: When they get a question, they’re so nervous that they can’t answer it. How have you dealt with nerves in the past?
Nimarta: In the beginning, I didn’t really deal with them. I put on a show and pretended I was okay while I was sweating and trying to be cool. After I’d been on the other side, as an interviewer watching nervous candidates, I understood what it feels like to be the interviewer. I realised that people can tell when you’re nervous, but they understand and empathise. It is a nerve-racking experience. Even the person interviewing you has been interviewed, so everybody understands.
Simply acknowledging, “I’m really nervous,” can be a great icebreaker. As an interviewer, I sometimes say to a candidate, “I understand if you’re a little nervous. Do you want to have a glass of water? Do you want to take off your coat? It’s okay. Relax. It’s fine that you’re nervous.” They’re very appreciative that I’ve said it.
When I was later interviewed, I learnt to acknowledge my nerves: “I didn’t think I was going to be so nervous. I’ve done this a lot, but I’m still nervous.” It’s a refreshing moment that you share with another human. They’re glad you’re honest. You’ve addressed the elephant in the room, and it stops feeling so heavy. The minute you say, “I’m feeling a bit nervous, but I’m excited to be here,” you find yourself connecting with another human.
My biggest recommendation is to own that you’re nervous. Don’t pretend you’re not or try to act cool. Just own it.
James: That’s good advice. Calling it out during the interview might be hard, but it can help you move through the nervousness. From your experience as both an interviewer and an interviewee, what common traits have you seen in good interviews?
Traits of Good Interviews#
James: What can someone do to make their interview better?
Nimarta: It’s always good to be prepared. I know that’s a cliché, but it really offers value when you go in having researched the company. You don’t have to recite what the company does, but you should arrive with questions or thoughts about the company, its position in the industry or things you’ve seen it do.
A lot of people think the point of research is to impress the interviewer. I don’t see it that way. Research enables a richer, more honest conversation. You aren’t scared about what they’re going to ask because you can say, “I’ve read your website. Here’s what I understand so far, and here are the parts I don’t understand.” At least you can have a conversation about it. Being prepared, forming your own opinions about what the company does and understanding what you’re curious about all help the discussion.
James: Obviously, you want to know where you might be working before you apply. It’s useful to go deeper, as you’ve suggested, by finding out about the company’s values and what it does. You can also identify what confuses you and seek clarity during the interview. That shows you’re genuinely interested in pursuing the role and that there are things you want to work out with them.
Nimarta: The other thing is not being afraid to ask questions. Earlier in my career, I was really scared to ask questions because I wanted to be the good girl who ticked all their boxes. At the end, they would ask if I had any questions, and I’d eagerly say, “No, it’s all good.” That isn’t helpful. First, you don’t get your questions answered. Second, asking questions helps the hiring manager understand your thought process and where you’re coming from. That’s valuable to them as well.
In one recent interview for a role with a pet food brand, I’d done some research and found negative reviews. Some animals had eaten the food, had a bad reaction, were hospitalised and didn’t have a good outcome. I asked, “I want to know about your product and quality-control process. I’ve read these reviews. Have you done anything to resolve this? Are they true? What happened?” I explained that I love animals and dogs, and I couldn’t be part of a company that produced food that made animals sick. I needed to know.
I ended up getting the job. Afterwards, the interviewer said that question had been memorable: “I could tell you really cared, and I want someone who really does care.”
James: That’s a great story. There’s a lot of value in going the extra step, carefully considering what you believe and ensuring your values align with the company’s.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven’t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so through the links in the show notes. The newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.
Without further ado, let’s get back into it.
I’d also like to touch on marketing. It’s something you’re passionate about and have done throughout your career. I’d like to talk about how it aligns with your personal brand and the way you brand yourself.
What has Nimarta taken from marketing and applied to herself?#
James: How does marketing tie into your résumé and job applications? What have you taken from marketing and applied in these different arenas?
Nimarta: Quite a lot. One thing is keeping the target audience in mind. From a marketing perspective, I’m always asking: Who is the target audience? What are their frustrations? What are they thinking and concerned about? What do they care about? When I create marketing material or communications, I speak to and address those concerns, or acknowledge them by saying, “I know these are your concerns. Here’s what we’re doing to resolve them.”
The same applies when I write CVs and cover letters, or help other people write them. I first ask who’s hiring for the role. If they’re a C-level executive, what are their frustrations? What are they looking for? What has frustrated them about the process of filling the role, and what might they want from a candidate?
When we look at it through that lens, we can write the CV to address those things: “These are the things you’re worried about, and here are some of the answers I can offer.” You can keep that in mind during the interview too. It lets you speak from their perspective and be more empathetic to their needs. That’s one key thread I pull from the marketing world into the job application world.
The next part is telling the story and differentiating yourself. When I work with brands, I help them differentiate and stand out. We’re always asking what makes them different. It’s a combination of rational things, such as your skill set, experience or having worked for a respected company, and an emotional side: who you are and what you believe in.
The same applies to a person. We look at the experience and technical elements that make you different and make sure we tell that story. Then we ask what you believe in, what you care about and what matters to you. It’s a dance between those two sides.
Not everybody has experience that exactly matches their intended industry. I once helped a construction project manager who wanted another role in construction project management but had a background in accounting. People are often intimidated when switching industries. I asked her, “How does your accounting background give you an edge over people who have only been project managers and have never done accounting? What do you bring to the job?”
She told me, “Project managers don’t look at the numbers. I always look at them, and because I have an accounting brain, I can flag problems early when the numbers don’t line up.” I said, “That’s gold. We’re going to say that. It isn’t in your CV at all.”
We found a way to tell those stories—the gold nuggets about what makes her different and what she brings that nobody else can. She got the job, which wasn’t surprising because she really stood out when she wrote about herself that way.
James: I love that point about differentiating yourself. In marketing, you differentiate yourself in the market, but we can also think about that in a career context. In your example, you brought the things that person could do that nobody else could to the forefront. That’s a great use of marketing principles.
I’d like to ask more about your career. You’ve worked for many companies, across many industries, and helped a lot of businesses. What career advice have you seen that isn’t very good?
Nimarta: I like that question. I’ve probably received a lot of bad advice. One example is when people say, “Stick to it. You don’t want to be seen as leaving a job too early. You should work there for at least a year or two.”
I remember wanting to quit a job after four years, and people still told me it would make me look uncommitted. If you look at my résumé, I’ve never stayed in a role for more than four years. Others have been six-month contracts, one year or two years.
The idea that you have to stick to a job for 10 or 20 years is old-school. Perhaps there was a time for it. My mum certainly did that, it worked for her and it worked for many people in previous generations. Is it relevant now? I don’t think people care about it as much.
James: I agree. Career mobility is easier now, especially with remote work. We aren’t necessarily constrained by where we live, so there are more opportunities and it’s easier to find new jobs through online advertisements and similar resources. Those have only been widespread for perhaps 15 to 20 years. The ability to move between and find jobs has opened many doors for young people. I have one last question for you, Nimarta.
Nimarta’s Advice for Graduates#
James: I ask every guest this question. What’s some advice you would give to young people starting their careers today?
Nimarta: The biggest thing is that it’s not life and death. It’s not the end of the world. The career you’re in now doesn’t have to be the career you remain in for the rest of your life. You can change your mind 2,000 times, switch industries and careers, or be 10 years into a career and decide, “I’m really bored with that. I’m going to do a different degree and take a different route.”
I see a lot of stress among 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds who are trying to map out the rest of their lives. You can’t do that, and you don’t need to know what you’ll be doing for the rest of your life. You just need to know what the next thing is, then do it. If it fulfils you and you love it, keep at it. If it doesn’t, don’t settle. Step back and ask what else you should be doing. Don’t be afraid to change or change your mind.
James: That’s great advice that young people today can take on board. Thanks so much for your time, Nimarta.
Connect with Nimarta#
James: If people want to find out more about you or connect with you, where should they go?
Nimarta: LinkedIn is probably the best place to learn more about me, read the things I share and connect with me. Send me a message or add me as a connection. Look up Nimarta Verma, and you’ll find me there. To learn more about my consultancy, visit disruptorbrand.com.
James: Great. We’ll leave all your links in the show notes and description, so they’re just below wherever people are listening. Thanks again for your time today, Nimarta. Hopefully, we’ll speak again soon.
Nimarta: No problem. It’s great to chat. Thanks for having me.
Outro#
James: Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope you got something out of it; I certainly did. If you haven’t already, please consider subscribing to the Graduate Theory newsletter. You’ll receive the episode and my takeaways in your inbox every week.
Thanks again for listening. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.