This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
Intro#
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a UX/UI designer at BCG Digital Ventures. She’s a freelance speaker and a mentor outside of working full time. She sells T-shirts, does food photography, writes blogs and researches crypto. Known for turning hobbies into businesses, please welcome the side hustle queen, Penny Talalak.
Penny: I love that intro. It always puts a smile on my face.
James: I know, it was so good. I bet it must be good as a guest, getting someone saying all these nice things about you.
Penny: I think it just made me realise that is a lot of things that I do. Having someone say it all in one sentence, I’m just like, I need you.
James: Definitely. We know you’re a very busy young woman and, like you said, you’ve got a lot of things going on. I’d love to touch on that at some point through this conversation.
Penny’s First Side Hustle#
James: But I want to take things back to start off with and talk about your experience with side hustles: doing things outside of uni or work, whatever it might be. Perhaps we can go back to your first experience with a side hustle. What did you end up doing? What were you selling, how old were you, and how did that come about?
Penny: Sure. My first side hustle, which some people might know about, was selling jewellery when I was 17 years old. I started when I went back to Thailand during the long holiday between Year 12 and starting first-year uni. It was about four months off.
Because I was in Thailand, I didn’t have a part-time job, while everyone was doing summer school or such. I was really bored, so I wanted to sell something. I was young and didn’t go through a full process of defining the problem or what the users needed. I just wanted to make jewellery.
I didn’t research whether there was a need for it, but it was creative and I loved making things. I started by hand-making jewellery such as bracelets and necklaces, and got the materials from Thailand, so it was very convenient for me to start the hustle. I didn’t market it much. I just posted on Instagram and, you know, the first customers are always friends and family.
From there, because I’d started an Instagram account and was already in Thailand, I started a website for it and did some website design. I wasn’t a designer back then, so my design wasn’t great, but I just needed something to do. I knew what I loved doing was selling. I love talking. I wouldn’t say persuading people to buy stuff, but I love marketing and doing those kinds of things, like advocating for what I love doing. That’s one thing: you’ve got to believe in your products so that you can sell them. I loved my products and was really encouraging people to buy my jewellery. That’s what I’m good at. If I were to do sales for something else, probably not. I really have to love the products to do it. I did it for three years.
Fast-forward and I started doing engineering at university. I really wanted to be an engineer because it was one of the only occupations I knew that had a reputation, apart from doctors, lawyers and accountants. Everyone knew what engineering was, so I started doing engineering. I wasn’t really good at maths or physics; I just did it for the sake of that.
I started the jewellery business before uni and kept doing it while studying engineering, which was tough. I was struggling in class as well as struggling to sell jewellery. I was just struggling in general and nothing was going well. I wanted to change degrees. It was either choose engineering or go to the business side.
I wanted to change to commerce, and I thought about it every single day. I woke up and thought, “Do I need a commerce degree to be an entrepreneur? Do I need a commerce degree for another three years to have a business, when I already have a business?” I kept asking myself this. Maybe I’d do marketing, design or an entrepreneurship course. I ended up not doing it. I dropped engineering and went into a design degree instead, because engineering just wasn’t working for me.
During university, UNSW was really into startups and had that business vibe. I had a lot of ideas because I was frustrated that I was struggling in engineering, and so were my friends. I wished I’d known engineering wasn’t for me before I got into it. I had a lot of ideas about how we could help future university students realise their passion and what the degree was like. I started applying to ideas competitions, startup competitions and pitching competitions, and writing my ideas down without a business plan or business model.
I just had an idea, because it all starts with an idea, right? Actually, it started with a problem: my frustrations. Then I started researching it. Was it just me, or was this a common problem?
Commonalities in Penny’s Side Hustles#
James: Has that been a common theme? You said you were doing the jewellery, and there are other things you’ve done over time. Has it commonly been a problem for you, and then you’ve thought, “Perhaps this is a problem for other people,” and started that way?
Penny: Yes, it always starts with me first. I have a problem and then think, “Am I alone? There’s got to be someone out there experiencing the same thing.” Whenever I come across a problem that’s a big issue and think maybe I’m not alone, I do surveys. I send them to my friends, who, if they’re listening right now, know me so well. They’re sick of my surveys, and I make them do them.
Each survey I send out usually gets about 100 responses. For some where I really need responses, I push for it and get about 600. I just want to get surveys completed, so I have a lot of data. The weakness was that I didn’t know how to do data analysis. I had a lot of raw data, read through it and analysed it manually.
I found it was a problem. When you have the data to back you up, you’re more likely to be able to pitch it and use that data to tell people or investors, “This is the problem. Six hundred people are facing it.” It helps a lot. I entered these competitions, pitched and got people to vote for me. It was more like a startup without a startup. Obviously, these ideas didn’t get through. It was just an idea and I was young.
Then one of them reached out to me, one of the investment or VC ventures. They said, “We really like your idea. We’re happy to help you build it out and make it come to life.” I was so excited: wow, my idea is coming to life, as an app. Their proposal was, “If we’re going to design an app for you, it costs about $10,000.” I was 19 years old and thought, “No way. I don’t have $10,000. No, thank you. I’ll just keep my ideas to myself.”
That idea now actually exists. I see it out there; someone did it. I met the co-founder and said, “Five years ago, I did the research on it,” or something like that. It’s so common now. So many people are solving similar problems to the ones I went through, bridging the gap between high school and university and choosing the right degree. It wasn’t my big passion, and now so many businesses do it.
Where Penny did Market Research#
James: You said you did surveys and got all that data. Where did you go to get it? Was it something you posted on Facebook and other social media, or did you go to a specific community for that problem?
Penny: Because that problem involved high school and university students changing degrees and not knowing what they wanted to do, I sent it out to the UNSW Discussion Group. That page alone had about 10,000 people. I had people posting it on Facebook, and I also did it for high school students.
A lot of my friends were tutoring high school students, so I sent it to them. I was tutoring as well, so I made my students do it. It was a lot of data; that’s why I reached about 600 people. It was mainly Facebook and direct messages. When it comes to surveys like these, I do post on Facebook, but I always direct-message people. That’s why my friends know me: “Another survey for Penny.” But I keep it really short and smart, so it isn’t a boring survey.
What Penny Includes in Market Research#
James: That was going to be my next question: what’s the structure like? It sounds like you’ve done a few and worked out the best way to do it. You keep it short and think carefully about the questions because you don’t get many to ask. How do you go about that?
Penny: This was when I was 18, doing surveys anonymously. It’s probably what made me a UX designer now, asking questions and interviewing people. I wouldn’t have known I was a surveyor back in the day. I usually keep the questions to something you can do in less than 30 minutes, where you can answer quickly with boxes. I always use Google Forms because it’s cheap and free—sorry, because it’s actually free.
The questions can actually be quite long, but because of the way you introduce them, people stop realising the time and keep answering. It becomes, “I actually came across that problem. I’m angry about it.” Because you’re already halfway through, I think most people finish it.
Keep the introduction to about one minute. The classic rule is never ask for their name or gender. I don’t think age range is necessary; try to minimise the amount of personal information as much as possible. For me, I asked what year of uni they were in, which was easy, and tried to use tick boxes and checkboxes as much as possible, minimising typing time. Checkboxes are quick and you can do them in seconds. The classic questions were, “What university do you go to? What year are you in?” Three seconds, done. Then, “What degree do you do?” They could type that in. Ask things they already know and don’t have to think about. That’s how you get people to do surveys quickly.
Penny’s Current Market Research Method#
James: Those are good things to consider. You said you did surveys a lot at university. Do you still do them, or do you use different kinds of market research now?
Penny: Absolutely. Surveys are the easiest and cheapest way to do it now. Typeform is easier to use; that’s what we use at work, and UX designers usually do surveys. But now we have another type of testing: A/B testing with Facebook. It’s very easy but expensive, so you’ve got to have a budget for it.
Facebook ads give you a lot of data: the kinds of people who click, the comments or likes you get and who interacts with your ads. That’s more data to validate with. But most of what I do now is probably user interviews, actually talking to people one by one. That’s more intimate and more costly because you’re paying for their time, but it’s more detailed and less quantitative. It’s more qualitative.
The Balance Between Market Research and Action#
James: How do you balance market research with just doing something because you’re interested in it? You can sit and do market research for ages and never actually do the thing. Particularly with some of your current side hustles, what’s the right balance between researching the market and taking action?
Penny: This is a tough one. When a lot of people want to start something, they do so much research. A great example is selling things on Amazon, Amazon FBA or starting an e-commerce business. Whatever business you’re starting, you do a lot of research, and that’s fine. I do research too, but I’m a very practical person.
It depends on the type of person you are. There’ll be a risk taker and a risk-averse type, and that’s fine. One might be faster than the other and might fail faster, but it’s always better to fail faster so you learn faster as well, right? One person might do so much research, but you don’t know whether it’s exactly right or wrong. You might watch many hours of Amazon FBA videos. I still watch them every day, and they’re so useful. But when you put them into practice, it’s different. Every video gives you an idea, but starting is the difficult bit. Even creating an account would be a great start, but not many people realise that. For me, it’s about taking a small step forward.
I think designers have an advantage, but when I wasn’t a designer, I validated my ideas just by talking to people. That’s already part of market research. Talk to maybe five friends. Once you get to five and see that it’s not worth doing any more, or the idea probably already exists, that’s when you stop.
James: That’s interesting. You’ve built up these heuristics, or ways of doing things, over time because you’ve done plenty of this stuff.
Failing Fast#
James: You mentioned failing fast: if something isn’t going to work, you should find out quite soon. Have there been periods in your life, or side hustles you’ve tried, where you’ve had to balance, “It’s early days, I’m still improving it, so I’ll continue,” against, “It isn’t going to work, so I’ll stop”? When is it time to stop, versus pushing through people not liking it because you think it will be good?
Penny: There are so many side hustles and businesses at the back of my mind, just a solid stack of ideas: I want to do this, I want to do that. But you’ve got to remember that, when you have a startup and your own business, you really have to dedicate and devote yourself to it for the rest of your life. That’s when you know it’s successful.
I’ve thought, “I don’t think I’m passionate enough about this,” or, “I don’t think I like this enough.” I might like it at that moment, but when I think long term and ask, “Are you really passionate about this?”, I’ll probably get bored the next day. That’s when I realise I should stop thinking about it.
But I do go through an initial process: talking to friends and seeing whether there’s already something out there. This should take about half a day. It shouldn’t be a week-long thing—half a day or maybe one day, talking to different people and seeing what they think. That should already provide some validation for your idea.
If you see that it’s an actual problem, that’s when you start looking for competitors, whether there’s already a solution and what people are using. If there’s already a solution, you ask, “Should I really bother making another solution for it?” Let’s say I want to make another delivery app, but there are already so many delivery apps. You have to be so passionate about delivery and commit for five or ten years to beat Uber Eats. That’s something I’m not ready for. That’s when I know, before I even start, that I’m not going to do it.
James: That’s interesting too: making your personal interest part of what you’re doing. How do you think about that?
Interests in the business Idea#
James: Would you ever pursue something you weren’t interested in because it was a good business idea, or do you notice straight away, “This is a cool idea, but I’m not into it, so I’m not going to do it”? How do you think about that?
Penny: There are so many ideas that I think would be great, but I’m not passionate enough to actually do them. I just hope someone out there fixes the problem one day. I feel ideas should be transparent and shared around the world because you can’t really IP an idea. That’s stupid: you just say a word and it’s IP, in a sense. You can patent a business idea, but you’ve got to have a good, full business plan behind it. When it comes to brainstorming, no one’s going to patent the sticky notes or whatever they do. It costs a lot, and who’s going to bother? If you’re going to bother doing that, you’ve already wasted so much time and money that you might as well make the idea.
A lot of people are very conservative about their own ideas, how things work and solutions. I try to encourage people to be more open about their ideas. It doesn’t mean people are stealing ideas. So many people say, “You stole my idea,” but Deliveroo is the same as Menulog and Uber Eats, and they’re still successful businesses. If you’re going to have a business and it already exists out there, I don’t think that should be a stopping point if you’re passionate about it.
I just wasn’t passionate about it. I wasn’t bothered to compete with Uber Eats, but some people will be very passionate about food delivery and come up with a new business idea, like Milkrun. For example, there’s a new business idea with a scalable business model that doesn’t even scale. It only works in Redfern and the eastern suburbs; it doesn’t even deliver here. For that kind of business idea, I feel you really need to be bothered and passionate about it to build something.
James: I think that’s great advice.
Penny: Unless you have a lot of money to throw at hiring someone to do it. Then it’s, “I acquired that and sold it to others.” Easy.
James: That’s a good point too. Your personal interest takes quite a high priority in the things you do. I guess that’s what will carry you over the long term. Even though it might be a good idea, is it really worth doing if you’re going to get bored quickly?
Penny: You made a great point. It’s like, “I don’t like doing this, but I make a lot of money and it’s a great thing.” You’ll never be happy with it. At that point, you’ll realise money doesn’t make you happy. It’s the old saying.
James: That’s a good point.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you haven’t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can do so via the link in the show notes. The Graduate Theory newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning with my thoughts and lessons from each episode.
But without further ado, let’s get back into it.
Penny’s Thoughts on Time Management#
James: I’m interested in your thoughts on time management and productivity when doing these things on the side. You’re working full time and have quite a few things on the side. How do you manage your time and think about productivity? Do you follow a system and fully plan your calendar, or are you more inclined to do what you feel like doing?
Penny: A lot of people know me as a very structured, planned time-management person. If people want to see me, they have to book me two weeks in advance, and I know what I’m doing every weekend. Some months, such as February, I know what I’m doing until the end of February and my next availability is in mid-March.
But am I really that busy? Obviously not. There’s always time. You’re not actually doing something eight hours a day. You’re eating, showering or on Facebook. I’m on Facebook and Instagram all the time. I have time to post stories and watch Netflix. But while I’m doing these things, my mind is working, and this comes to multitasking.
My best tip is replying to things fast and doing things very fast. That minimises decision-making time. If you decide something very slowly, your life will probably be slow. I’m also a risk taker and don’t think too much. If I want to do something, I do it straight away. If I want to reply, I reply straight away. For me, it’s about reducing decision-making in your life.
Mark Zuckerberg explained why he always wears a grey T-shirt: it reduces decision-making in his life. Otherwise, you might spend five minutes choosing. For women, it can take two hours to choose what you’re going to wear outside. He made a really good point, and that’s how I live: reduce your decision-making time. It doesn’t mean being a risk taker who doesn’t make decisions at all—please don’t ever do that. It means being logical and smart, knowing, “If you do this, what’s the outcome? If you do that, what’s the outcome?” Reduce that time. Be a fast texter; that’s fine.
I’m always a fast texter, always on my phone and always there for people. One reason is that, if you’re not there every minute, you’re losing an opportunity. For example, if a friend is upset and texts you, but you’re not there because you’re off your phone or busy, that’s fine. But you’re losing the opportunity to be there for her when she’s upset. She’ll go to other people and stop relying on you. I want to be someone who’s reliable and creates trust between people. I feel that’s being a good friend.
That’s about friendship, but it grew on me that I’m always a fast replier. It’s the same with jobs. Let’s say someone wants a website designed. If I’m a slow replier, I’ll lose the chance and they’ll go to someone who replies faster. That’s the mentality behind why I’m always replying quickly. You’ve got to be first in line and fast in action, because there will always be someone above you who is faster. Life is all about competition, and that’s my time management. I have a calendar and time-box everything, except maybe Sunday, because I do relax a little more too.
There are times when I don’t bring my laptop or Apple Watch, so I don’t get notifications and use that as a way to chill, just going out. Otherwise, if I’m at home, I’m on my laptop 24/7. When I’m on my laptop, I have three screens. One is work, the other is more work and the third is another bit of work. I’m always looking up and down to see what I need to do.
James: You manage to accomplish a lot in one day, which is amazing. Going back to speed, I’ve heard it described as a feedback loop: observe, orient, decide, act. You observe the situation, work out what you’re going to do, decide and act, then get feedback on your decision. The quicker you complete that loop, the quicker you can do things.
If something takes a week rather than a few days or one day, it takes longer to get feedback on it. If you finish on Monday instead of Saturday, you can have feedback by midweek. You can see how the loop speeds things up. It’s interesting that you assign importance to speed, making decisions quickly and replying quickly. I think it’s important for productivity.
Penny: I find it really easy to start things. If I’m going to start a business, I’ll start it in the next five minutes. If I want to start a new idea, I’ll start straight away. But I find it really hard to end things. When I start something, the next day I have to think about how I’m going to end it.
I break the process down: phase one has to end, then phase two has to end. At work, things can go on and on: “This has been going for five months. Why is it not ending?” I tend to forget the past because I’m a very forward-looking, future person.
Penny’s Time Management Tips#
James: If someone is working on a side hustle outside of work, are there any productivity or time-management tips you’d give them? In your case, you have side hustles outside work hours. Is there anything that’s worked well for you, or any general advice you’d give someone in that situation?
Penny: A lot of it is personality and character. It’s something you probably can’t teach someone, such as motivation and ambition. Time management is something to practise, but I think a lot comes from the environment you’re in. If you’re constantly surrounded by people who don’t have side hustles, you probably won’t have side hustles. If you surround yourself with go-getters who have side hustles, you’ll feel like you’re behind. People don’t realise that until they leave one circle, enter another and feel, “Wow, I’m the odd one out.”
People who already have side hustles probably know what they’re doing well. And yes, you will have a mental breakdown. Please reach out to me. I have mental breakdowns, and it’s okay. Honestly, I don’t really have other tips. Usually, it happens at night. People who have side hustles don’t sleep before midnight, so I’ll be up and there for you.
But also multitask and set your schedule. I always use a Kanban board to move things, and it’s so satisfying when you move them across. Some cards will be there for months and months, and that’s annoying because you really want to move them. What you can do is break them down into little cards so you can move one every day. Break down a large task instead of having it as a giant umbrella. Even if you can put steps inside the card, make sure each step is a separate card.
That’s a smart way for me to move things because there’s satisfaction in moving something to “done”. It feels so good. I use Notion for to-do lists and the Kanban board. I use Figma a lot for calendars. I have a monthly calendar to see when things should be done for my side hustles, and a weekly calendar so I know what events are on from Monday to Friday. That’s more of a social calendar. That’s how I function.
For people who want to start side hustles but don’t know how, that’s a hard one. It’s about motivation, finding what you want to do and finding whether you’re passionate enough to keep up with it. You’re going to fail, but the best way to get motivation is to surround yourself with people who are doing the same thing.
James: That’s good advice. There’s the idea that you’re the average of your five best friends, and the importance of surrounding yourself with people you want to be like.
The 5 Best Friends Rule#
Penny: Is that true about the five best friends? What if you have fewer than five?
James: The way I interpret the quote, your closest friend probably has the biggest impact, and the impact decreases as the closeness does. It’s almost the sum of all your inputs. Five may just be a good number to pick, but really, I think it’s the sum of everything: who your friends and parents are, what you watch on TV, what you use and spend time with, and what outside things enter your environment. All those things together shape your motivation and thoughts.
The five best friends is a simple way of visualising or understanding that, but I think it’s more than your friends. They’re important, but it’s the sum of all those things: what you’re watching and listening to, and what you’re doing with your time. Even that can help.
I think the idea is quite accurate. If you see someone else doing something, it helps. I’m friends with other people doing podcasts, which makes it easier for me to do mine. If I were doing it by myself and didn’t know anyone else doing it, it would be much harder. I’m sure you also know people who support you and are doing similarly cool stuff.
Penny: I’m slightly different from my best friends.
James: Really?
Penny: I have multiple groups of friends for different purposes, which sounds really bad. If I have, let’s say, ten groups of friends, by the time I get back to the first one I’ll see them three months later. It’s a rotation, which sounds really bad. It was interesting to think about the five best friends, because I’m nothing like my five closest friends.
James: That’s interesting. Maybe it doesn’t apply, then.
Penny: Maybe it has some effect.
James: That’s so funny.
Penny’s Thoughts on Becoming a Designer#
James: I want to ask about your career as a designer, because that’s something you do really well. You’re working with a fantastic company, and I want to understand how you got into design. I know you mentor people in this space too. If someone listening is interested in design and wants to become a designer like you, what can they do to enter the field and grow their skills?
Penny: First, design is such a broad term. You can be an engineering designer, an architectural designer or a fashion designer. My field is called user experience and user interface, which is a long name, or UX/UI. Not everyone knows that acronym. Explaining it to my grandparents is the most difficult thing. It’s been around for a while and we use it every day, but the job title is only becoming more widely known now, which is good. I’d still say 80% of people don’t know what I do.
Experience design is designing for users to have the best experience. People ask, “What do you do? How do you make users have the best experience? How do you know someone will have a good experience?” You can’t always please everyone, and that’s the hardest part of my job. I have to please people and make sure the design is right. Everyone goes through the same thing, but there’ll always be a 10% minority who hate your design and think it isn’t working. That’s totally okay and something you have to accept. Not everyone likes Facebook or Instagram, but you get used to them and their patterns.
There’s a lot of psychology involved. You have to understand how humans work, what their patterns are, what’s already out there, what is successful, and what makes a good or bad product. It’s usually digital design. We’re moving towards digital experiences, so I design a lot of apps and websites, as well as a lot of Web 3.0 and crypto stuff, which is really fun.
For people who want to get into UX/UI, you can have a UX background or a UI background. I came from graphic design. UI is more design and creative style: where things go, the placement of text and buttons, and making things look pretty. But it might not be the best experience. Then there’s UX, which is about an amazing flow. Amazon has that addictive yellow button that users keep pressing “Buy” on. That’s terrible UI—a terrible interface that looks like it’s from the 1990s—but it works so well. That comes from UX, and then you’ve got UI.
People come from many backgrounds because there’s no specific degree for it. You can essentially do any degree. That’s why I just wanted to graduate, then taught myself UX/UI. I started with UI, designing apps and websites. The more you design and copy existing apps, the more you see the patterns: the size of a button or phone, where the button should go, the terminology people use, and how many screens an onboarding process should have. The more you copy designs, the more you understand, “This is how an app works.”
It’s the same for websites. Copy a lot of websites and you figure out, “The image should be placed here, the title font should be this big and the button should be this big.” You start to recognise the patterns. In e-commerce, why is the cart always at the top and why does it stay there? What happens if you put the cart on the side? Maybe it looks good, but e-commerce websites look the same for a reason: people are used to them.
For a designer who wants to go beyond the pattern, that can be difficult because everyone is so used to it. That’s a challenge in our lives: how do you break the pattern and make people buy differently without leaving them confused or unable to get used to it? It’s a really difficult job, but a lot of people see it as easy. If you’re good at it and do it often, you can finish the work and design a website really fast. You know your routine and speed. But if you’re not good at it, you’ll probably take a long time to create a website, think it’s ugly, be unhappy with it and do it again.
Penny: I know I’m going off topic about getting into the industry, but I’d say to start by copying designs and looking at apps and websites.
Attributes of Designing that Penny thinks are under-rated#
James: What skills involved in being a UX/UI designer do you think are important but underestimated? Is there anything people underappreciate in this field?
Penny: The creative skill and eye for design are really hard to train. Some people are born with creativity. They’re great drawers, they can draw, they know where colours go and they have an eye for design. It’s hard to train.
I used to be able to draw; I can’t draw any more. But because I design so much and look at exemplars or websites, I’m able to put in my head where things go. For people who haven’t done that before, it can be really hard. I think people appreciate that when they realise, “I actually can’t design this. Wow, it looks so good.” At the end of the day, everyone thinks they’re a designer. You can design, I can design and everyone can design a website, right?
What people don’t realise is the psychology behind it. How do you design something that looks good? The word “good” is different for everyone. You might think a button looks great, while I think it looks terrible. How do you prove what’s defined as good? In the industry, it’s no longer about “good design” but about what’s usable and validated by other people—the actual users and customers.
That’s a great proof point. Let’s say you’re designing an e-commerce website. As a designer, you might think it looks good, while the customer thinks it looks really bad. It’s not their fault; it’s your fault that the e-commerce website isn’t making sales. I don’t think people notice that. A lot of people don’t hire designers because they feel they can do it themselves. A logo is really easy to do now; you can get it for $10 from Fiverr or Upwork. There are so many freelancer websites marketing website design for $10 or logo design for $5, but you’re missing the psychology behind it.
There are two types of designers. With the cheap one, you tell them what to do and they do it for you. With the expensive one, you tell them what to do, but they take it with a grain of salt and give you suggestions and advice on how to make it better.
A lot of people go with the first one: “This is what I want. I just need you to make it look pretty.” I have many clients asking for logo design who just need me to make it look pretty. But other clients need my suggestions: “I know you can make it look pretty, but I want to know how to make sales and get more people visiting my website.” That’s the thinking behind it that not many people appreciate.
James: That’s really interesting. If you were interested, you could upskill yourself in the psychology and improve as a designer.
Penny’s Favourite Failure#
James: I want to start wrapping up. I’ve got two questions left about your career as a whole. First, has there been a particular failure or something that didn’t go to plan, but ended up being a valuable experience that you now appreciate and that turned out well?
Penny: Definitely when I was applying for graduate positions. In final year, many of my friends were applying for internships and graduate positions, and I went through a lot of interviews. Like any other graduate, I did interviews, assessment centres and design challenges. I reached the last round and then didn’t get an offer. I got zero offers, while I heard about friends getting five. At that point, I felt so low and thought, “Why am I not good enough? Is my degree my fault? What’s missing? Is it my mark? Is my degree not aligned with what they’re looking for, or is it just other people?”
That made me doubt my skills. I really wanted to get into UX/UI. I was so determined, but there weren’t many UX/UI graduate programs. I had some interviews for UX/UI graduate programs, but didn’t get in. I felt, “Okay, maybe this is the end of the industry for me.”
I thought I was doing so well. I was designing so many apps and websites in my own time. I had a smashing portfolio, which got me through interviews and into the last round, but I didn’t get an offer. I started looking outside graduate programs and got a job as an entry-level UX/UI designer instead of a graduate. I skipped the graduate process and went straight to a normal UX/UI designer role. I don’t think they were looking for juniors, either. The job title was UX/UI designer and asked for maybe two to three years of experience.
I had zero experience because I’d just graduated. Luckily, I’d practised a lot of UX/UI and made my portfolio look like I had two to three years of experience. I’d already practised my eye for design. Even though my degree wasn’t in UX/UI and I’d never had a UX/UI job, I landed a role at a legal tech firm.
My manager explained why he hired me, which was hilarious. It wasn’t because I knew what I was doing or was experienced in UX/UI. It was because I didn’t know shit. I was bullshitting in the interview, and he thought, “She’s easy to train.” I was open-minded in the interview. I acted like I knew what I was doing, but I didn’t, and he found that funny. He hired and trained me because he wanted someone to mentor and train up.
For every junior, don’t expect to be the best, but go in as your best self and act like you know all this shit. At the end of the day, they can see that you probably don’t know stuff. I thought, “Okay, that’s funny.” I grew a lot because I was open-minded and willing to learn. I said, “Hit me with whatever you want.” I started from ground zero. He trained me from the beginning in how to use Photoshop and Adobe Illustrator.
I had a mental breakdown; it was the hardest job ever. Usually, I just dropped boxes when making a website. He made me copy websites in Adobe Illustrator. You’ve got to learn the hard way to be successful in the future. That was mental. I always mention him. He has my Instagram and is probably listening to this.
That was one failure, but it also taught me about salary negotiation. A lot of graduates ask about the low salary. I’m thankful I skipped all the graduate programs and entered at a higher salary. I was able to use that as a benchmark, jump to another company and skip some of the junior process. I still consider myself a junior. I’m still a junior at my company, so you’ll always be a junior to someone. But if you keep thinking of yourself as a junior, you’ll always have the mindset that you’re not good enough.
James: That’s a great story. It’s interesting to hear that you didn’t get a graduate offer, and now look where you are. It has almost worked out perfectly.
Penny’s Advice for Graduates#
James: I’ve got one more question, Penny, which I ask all guests. If you were finishing uni and starting your career or first job again this year, what advice would you give yourself?
Penny: That’s a hard one because I love my job and I’m doing really well. If I had to go back and start over, I’d panic because the competition is much higher. COVID put so many people out of jobs, and there are so many great designers. If I didn’t get a job offer, going through applications and graduate programs again would be exhausting.
I definitely wouldn’t apply for a graduate program. I’m done with that. I’d probably look for something more entry-level. Even though the benchmark is so high, I’d probably start a business. If I were starting my career again, I’d start a business and stop applying. I’d still apply, but I wouldn’t be upset if I didn’t get a job because I’d have my own thing too.
James: That’s cool. You’ve shown there are plenty of opportunities for side hustles and extra things to do if you look for them and are interested in what problems need solving in the world. That’s great advice. We’re in the period when people are applying for graduate roles that start next year, so it’s also very timely.
Penny: It’s stressful for them. I never want to go through it again. Job applications are way more stressful than a break-up. Rejection from an application is more stressful than a guy rejecting you. It hurts. Every day, you check your email and see that you didn’t get a job. Your life sucks.
You’re surrounded by people making money and flashing their suits in Barangaroo. I never got to experience that because I didn’t work in Barangaroo. But creating jobs for yourself will help you get a job, and a lot of people don’t realise that.
James: That’s great advice. I’d recommend doing side hustles to anyone. If you pay attention to the world’s problems and help people solve them, you’ll be setting yourself up in the right way.
Penny: Also, know people. If I went back, I wish I’d known more people. Even though I know a lot of people, I want to know more smart, talented people within my circle. You need people like that.
James: It’s so important. Thanks so much for the chat today, Penny. It’s been really illuminating to hear about your life, all the things you’re doing and the amazing advice you’ve shared.
Contact Penny#
James: If people want to connect with you and find out more about what you do, where’s the best place to find you?
Penny: Literally on Instagram. I don’t really use LinkedIn any more because it feels so professional. Someone messages, “Hey, Penny,” and I reply, “Hey, girl!” There’s already so much stress in the world. Writing emails is formal, then you go on LinkedIn and have to be formal again. LinkedIn is like email.
Obviously, you can use LinkedIn to communicate. But when you get to Instagram, you feel a personal connection and invested in someone’s life and what they’re trying to do. I want people to come on a journey with me because not many people go through what I do each day. What’s the life of a side-hustle workaholic like? There are mental breakdowns. People are involved with my success and failure. The more personal you get—and I’m a very open person—the more it becomes a friendship rather than a professional relationship. I don’t want, “Regards, Penny.” I want, “Let’s catch up, Penny.”
James: That’s certainly true. We’ll have links to your Instagram, website and everything else in the show notes. Thanks so much for chatting today, Penny. It’s been fascinating to hear about you and your story. Thanks so much for your time.
Penny: Thank you for having me.
Outro#
James: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory with Penny Talalak. She’s started so many side hustles and works extremely hard at what she does. It was great to get her insight into the different things she’s doing and how she manages them on top of working full time.
If you haven’t already subscribed to the Graduate Theory newsletter, you can find my takeaways from this episode, as well as every other episode, delivered straight to your inbox every week. Thanks again for listening, and we’ll see you next Tuesday.