This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today’s guest discusses two major accidents, what she learned from them and how they have affected her life. You’ll hear about her book, Naturally Successful, the principal lessons from her 25 years as a leadership coach, and her insights into our connection with nature and how we can use it in daily life.
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James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a leadership expert with over 25 years of experience. She was born in Germany and moved with her family to Sydney in 2004. She is passionate about the environment and has overcome the extraordinary adversity of relearning how to walk twice. She now helps leaders manage their energy and develop greater influence and impact.
Please welcome Ingrid Messner. Welcome, Ingrid.
Ingrid: Thank you for having me, James.
Ingrid On Re-learning to Walk Twice#
James: I’m excited to speak with you. Relearning to walk once is an enormous challenge, but you’ve done it twice. Could you explain how those situations unfolded and what you learned from them?
Ingrid: Learning to walk as a child seems easy: you fall, try again and do not think twice. You also do not remember it. As an adult in 2017, however, I broke my leg during an evening bushwalk in Sydney. The accident itself was not spectacular; I tripped on the track and fell badly. But I shattered the tibial plateau in my knee, which bears your weight, so there was no way I could get out unaided.
The group called emergency services. Although we were in Sydney, the location was remote, so the rescue involved an ambulance, the fire brigade and water police. What happened afterwards was interesting. The moment you enter the healthcare system, you become part of it. You must retain control of your own healing and recovery because many people will tell you what is best from their relatively narrow perspective.
I needed surgery, and the surgeon did an excellent job before referring me to a physiotherapist. I was fortunate that the physiotherapist understood what returning to sport required, but the surgeon and physiotherapist were only two parts of the process. People describe it as “just a broken bone”, but it also affects your mental and emotional health and your social context. It took me 11 months to return to bushwalking—far longer than the usual six-week recovery people associate with a broken bone. For those 11 months, I could not participate in my community in the same way.
One night, I woke and wrote down every element of the recovery. There was the self, the other people involved, and the wider context—including finances, because recovery costs money even in Australia. Nobody explains all those areas, and no single navigator guides you through them. Looking at the list, I realised it resembled business. In business, you frequently face adversity or a challenge. You must look after yourself, assemble a team, deal with difficult stakeholders, manage the context and surrounding systems, and bring those three areas together. Relearning to walk is an arduous process, but business can be similar.
That recovery finished around 2018. At the beginning of 2019, a viral ear infection destroyed part of my balance system. Balance normally operates automatically: your eyes, ears, body, tendons, muscles and brain work together to keep you upright. The brain reconciles the signals from your right and left sides. If one ear sends a different signal, the brain becomes confused and goes into overdrive. It becomes exhausted, cannot think properly and, for a time, cannot keep you upright.
You must retrain the brain to disregard the unreliable signal and trust the rest of the body. It is a lived example of neuroplasticity. You become acutely aware of your body, your surroundings and your connection with the environment. Despite my love of nature, I initially could not go outside or connect with it because my brain was consumed by processing peripheral vision. I had to work very hard to expand that capacity again so I could connect with my environment, walk and resume everyday activities.
The process embodies everything we learn about habits. You complete one tiny exercise every day. You cannot force it; you simply repeat it. It is boring, but you create a small path in the brain that gradually becomes a freeway. That experience taught me humility and gratitude. It again showed that recovery depends on the right support systems—community, family and friends—as well as financial security so that being unable to work does not create additional stress. We often forget to value those things.
When COVID arrived, I thought the pattern was repeating: another virus. Viruses have always existed, but we rarely paid attention to them, and their impact differs between people. That became a lesson for my leadership work. When we focus too heavily on completing a task or project, we can forget the people around us. Passion and urgency can also make us neglect our bodies and fail to practise enough self-care.
The same three questions recur: are you looking after yourself, who forms your support system and team, and what is happening in the surrounding context and environment? The broken leg and viral infection were very different experiences. I once assumed a virus would last a few weeks, but emotionally, a condition connected with the brain was much harder to manage than one connected with the leg.
The broken leg was visible, so everybody understood it; the balance condition was invisible. Many people in business, especially now, face invisible challenges. Leaders and colleagues often forget to ask what is happening internally. Yet a person’s internal world affects how effectively they work and lead. If they cannot explain what is happening, it becomes difficult to support their team or other people. When somebody is unwell and has a short fuse, anger may surface in a meeting because of their condition rather than anything the other person has done.
Balance is essential, although it does not require everything to be present in equal measure at every moment. Much of the balance our bodies maintain is automatic, so we do not notice it.
James: The self is one of the three major areas in your book. As you’ve said, we must first look after ourselves so we can act from a more centred position.
Using Bad Experiences as Fuel For Compassion#
James: As difficult as those experiences were, they must have strengthened your resilience, confidence and belief that you can overcome hard things. Do you reflect on them and use them as fuel in your career and coaching today?
Ingrid: They have led to greater curiosity and compassion. Any good coach is non-judgemental, but it goes beyond that. You become more aware that everybody does the best they can at a particular moment with the resources available to them.
If somebody lacks the necessary resources, their behaviour may seem strange. Rather than react, it is better to explore the situation with curiosity: what might be causing this, what is happening for them, and how can I create a safe experience in which they can discover their own solution? Even if another person faces a similar infection or knee injury, my recovery does not determine theirs. There may be common elements, but I do not possess their answer.
You quickly realise that you don’t have the answer. I have many years of experience, but I may still begin a coaching conversation without knowing what the problem is. That doesn’t matter; I need only to be present, hold the space and ask questions that help the person work it out. Business should operate in a similar way. When I first started work, I arrived with university, internship and early work experience and focused on the areas in which I was good or had expertise. All of that was true.
At some point, you must shift from being the expert towards being a coach, mentor and explorer. Nobody will ever have all the answers, but some people never loosen their grip on expertise as the basis of their identity. Expertise is important, but you must build on it with an open mind. Some junior people I coach believe they must know every answer to be accepted. Through discussion, we discover that this is not true.
You don’t have to possess all the answers; you need good questions, a genuine interest in the subject and the honesty to say, “I know this, but I don’t know that,” instead of making something up. You also need an environment that supports that culture. If a boss constantly pressures you to know every fact and figure and act as an expert, you will respond to that expectation, but it traps you in expert mode. That does not serve you when everything is uncertain.
James: You mentioned asking questions that help somebody move out of a rut, as well as using questions to understand a problem and work better with your team rather than expecting to know everything. Asking better questions is difficult. The right question—even in an interview—can produce an interesting answer, while a poor one may reveal little. Can you recall a situation where a well-timed question created a breakthrough?
Ingrid: The right question depends on context. You may ask one person a question at a certain moment and nothing happens. Ask the same person the same question at another time and they have an epiphany because they are ready for change. Finding the appropriate moment involves trial and error. Watch how the person responds verbally and through body language, as well as the content of their answer.
As a general rule, begin with open questions rather than those requiring yes-or-no answers, which close the conversation. An open question creates space to explore and discover options. Once you have found several possibilities, you can narrow them again, perhaps to a yes-or-no choice between options A and B. A person may initially see in only one direction. Asking what lies on the other side can reveal ten more options. Figuratively, you help them look around and discover what is available.
A good question also has the right intention: it creates an experience in which the other person recognises what matters to them, rather than merely giving you an explanation. Ask whether the answer serves you or serves them. In a podcast, ask whether it serves the audience. If it does, it is a great question.
We must also remember to be kind to ourselves and the people around us. Everybody will get something wrong. We need to accept our mistakes, move on and show kindness when somebody else makes one. Rather than asking, “Why did you mess this up?”, ask, “What caused this, and what can we both learn from it?” That can strengthen the relationship because the other person feels heard, understood and acknowledged. You explore the cause of the conflict or problem together, which can be particularly useful in a project environment. Good questions are both an art and a science.
James: I absolutely agree with that.
What is Bad Leadership Advice#
James: Much of your coaching focuses on helping people lead better. What leadership advice do you consider bad? Is there anything you would tell leaders not to do?
Ingrid: Ignoring context. People often say a leader should ask rather than tell because telling is hierarchical. That style prevailed historically and remains important in the military or during conflict for good reasons, but it is not useful in every situation. When judging a leadership style, we can easily forget to ask about the context in which it occurred. Some people call this situational or adaptive leadership, but the central point is that leadership never happens in a vacuum.
Something preceded the present situation, and it will probably have consequences in the future. Leadership development that focuses only on the immediate moment, the individual and perhaps their team, without considering everything around them, is unlikely to be effective. It wastes training money because it does not connect the lesson to the real-world context in which it must be applied.
James: That’s important. As a new person in an organisation, you need to connect what you’re doing with why the organisation wants it done and understand where your work fits within the wider group.
The same principle applies when you lead a team: understand how your team fits into the organisation’s wider jigsaw rather than treating it as though it exists in a vacuum.
Ingrid: We sometimes describe this as working in silos. A large organisation may have multiple silos; in a smaller one, separation may appear as conflict between teams or individuals. The problem is anything that separates rather than connects each part to the whole.
Directive leadership has its place. In an absolute, time-critical emergency, you may use a different leadership style for good reasons. But even while COVID has left many people stressed, most situations do not justify an emergency leadership style, and it does not produce a solution. Some fields genuinely require it, but most of us, including the listeners, do not work in them.
James: That returns to kindness: treat everybody with respect, even under pressure. A leader may need to absorb some of the surrounding difficulty, shelter the team and continue to treat them respectfully.
Connection To Nature#
James: Your first accident happened during a bushwalk, and nature is also part of Naturally Successful. That connection can be lost when people spend all day in an office or working from home. When did you first begin exploring our connection with nature?
Ingrid: I have always loved biology and geography. For me, geography meant travelling and discovering different lands, countries and people. When I first came to Australia in 2000, we toured Kakadu National Park with an Aboriginal ranger who explained the meanings, stories and uses associated with one type of tree.
I looked at that tree and realised I had never seen one in the same way, with all its connections and everything around it. Trees suddenly had an entirely different meaning. That made me curious to explore more Indigenous perspectives. Later, I undertook many nature-meditation retreats, where you spend several consecutive days alone outdoors.
When you remain in one place rather than moving through it on a bushwalk, you notice how everything around you is connected in a small ecosystem and how you fit within it. You think more carefully about the water you drink, where your food was grown and the oxygen you breathe. Trees and other plants provide oxygen, and you contribute to a circular exchange.
That is the visual and physical level. Through time outdoors with Indigenous people, I also encountered the understanding that everything is family. You are not alone: plants and animals are your relations, connected to a specific area of land. Everything has its place, rules and principles.
The underlying truth became clear to me, and it is not complicated: healthy people need a healthy planet. We cannot live, function and perform well at work if our bodies are unwell. I recently saw headlines about microplastic pollution in our air, food and water. It consequently enters our bodies, and nobody can yet say exactly what it will do. That connection was largely absent from mainstream discussion until a few years ago. Seeing it on the front page of a mainstream newspaper is encouraging, because we cannot change something until we become aware of it.
I am hopeful that more people are becoming aware. We have the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. If every business incorporated them into its ordinary strategy, and every person, leader and project included at least one relevant element, it could create a major shift. Without a healthy natural world, there can be no healthy humans—not in the way we live today.
James: For somebody working nine to five in an office or at home, what practical steps could strengthen their connection with nature, improve their health or involve them in sustainability initiatives?
Ingrid: The answer differs for each person because our childhood experiences and current opportunities vary. Most cities do not encourage a genuine connection with nature. Sometimes, however, it is enough to find a favourite place in a park where you can sit for a few minutes each day or simply walk through. Instead of listening to your phone or a podcast, immerse yourself in that immediate environment. Anything you watch or hear from somewhere else, even recorded nature sounds, takes you into a different space.
Notice what is happening around you. Even in a small park, sitting on a lawn, touching the grass and being fully present can have a healing effect. Research shows that a view of greenery, a natural landscape or natural light benefits people in apartments and offices compared with a view of another concrete building or wall. One prison study compared people whose windows faced a landscape with those facing concrete. Those who could see greenery were about 24 or 25 per cent less likely to become ill.
James: Wow. That’s amazing.
Ingrid: In the simplest version, you could use a green screensaver on your computer; even that can help. I also keep natural objects on my desk. This rock, for example, was given to me at a nature event and comes from Afghanistan. It has a fantastic colour, and every time I look at it, I remember receiving it. Memories and thoughts are one way we connect with nature. I also have a little stick, and from time to time I touch these objects and remember the experiences associated with them.
That helps because it feeds our innate need to connect with nature. The term is “biophilia”, which means that humans need a connection with nature. I think of it as almost a survival instinct—although that is my description, not a scientific label. If you are stuck in a hotel room whose window doesn’t open, with no fresh air or greenery, you can become quite depressed and your mental health will suffer. I think that happened to many people in hotel quarantine.
James: Hotel quarantine was difficult. Even simple greenery can help: your background is green, and keeping plants in a room brings nature into your routine. I was also surprised by the prison study.
Ingrid: I found that example in Johann Hari’s book Lost Connections, which investigates the underlying causes of depression. Many people in business, including senior executives, experience depression and high levels of anxiety. Hari identifies disconnection from nature as one cause among several. Scientific research now supports something Indigenous peoples understood thousands of years ago. If we respectfully combine that knowledge with what is possible in today’s environment, we will all be better off.
James: Other research also shows the value of going outside, getting sunlight and exercising. A walk through the nearest park can combine all those benefits and support both mental and physical health. Thank you for raising this. Lost Connections has been on my reading list for some time.
People that Inspire Ingrid#
James: Who inspires you? Are there people in your network or elsewhere who model good leadership, or whose work young graduates should explore?
Ingrid: Different people come to mind for different reasons. I do not have a single hero; I admire particular qualities in different people. One example is Atlassian co-founder Mike Cannon-Brookes, who uses his money and profile to bring climate change to the forefront.
From what I have read as an outsider, Atlassian appears to have a people-focused culture, although I have no internal knowledge to confirm it. Cannon-Brookes’s environmental work also appears grounded in his values. His media profile gives him influence at a systems level. For example, he challenged Elon Musk on Twitter over the battery storage project in South Australia, and Musk responded when he might not have responded to many others.
I think that is a good example of thinking outside the box while remaining true to your values and using your voice wherever you can. As a young person in business, when you see something that matters to you and your values and consider it a moral issue, start a conversation with more senior people. If you do so respectfully and from an informed position, you can have considerable influence.
Ingrid: Do not underestimate your influence. Another example is Paul Hawken and Project Drawdown, which brought scientists together to compile solutions to climate change using existing technologies and other methods in one book. I regard him as a global leader.
There are also many approachable people in the B Corp community and in small companies founded around purpose and sustainability. That is a good place to start if you want to work in this area, although large corporations in Australia and around the world also contain good leaders across many fields. You are not limited to one sector.
Who Gives A Crap is another example. Its toilet paper became particularly well known during COVID, but the way the company began was brilliant. Its early crowdfunding campaign videos are fascinating. I have supported the company from the start and watched it grow into a subscription service for toilet paper, tissues and paper towels while donating millions to toilets and sanitation facilities. There are many inspiring people.
Ingrid’s Advice for New Graduates#
James: What advice would you give young people starting their careers in 2022?
Ingrid: I feel for anybody beginning a career in 2022, given everything happening, although it may also offer an advantage. Starting a career is usually a rite of passage following certain earlier experiences, some of which COVID prevented. It may help to focus on further developing yourself and your self-awareness through meditation, journalling, yoga or conversations with other people. Gradually, you become more aware of who you are and what you want.
The world in 2022, and probably next year as well, is uncertain and complex. It is difficult to define a long-term vision. It may be enough to identify five things you want to learn over the next year, along with your passions and purpose, then ask how to combine them and find the right organisation in which to work.
Proceed step by step and check throughout the year whether you still want the same thing. Other people may gradually push you towards something you never anticipated until you begin to lose part of yourself. As you learn about yourself, schedule regular checkpoints—perhaps monthly or quarterly—to ask whether this is truly what you want and what should come next. Work in shorter periods. Some people have a long-term vision, which is excellent provided they hold it lightly, accepting that the route may involve many detours.
Hold the goal like a beacon or light you can follow, while accepting that the route may not be straight. You may take detours and discover that one is actually better. At a checkpoint, you may realise you now know enough about yourself to change your goal, and that is fine. Long-term visions and goals are valuable only if you hold them lightly.
Some people can pursue a fixed long-term vision brilliantly. For the majority, however, I think greater flexibility better supports emotional and mental health.
If leaders tell you it is okay to change and not know, you can genuinely admit uncertainty, take a breath and explore what is around you. Make a decision, try it as an experiment, learn from it and take the next step. You cannot possibly know everything, and that is okay.
James: That’s very true. I like your suggestion of regular check-ins to reflect on where you are, where you’ve been and where you want to go. You can ask whether your current direction is still one you want to pursue and take time to consider the alternatives. Otherwise, it is easy to drift along one path without stopping to think. That’s a great point.
Ingrid: One last recommendation: Johann Hari has written another book called Stolen Focus, which I think everyone should read, especially younger people who use social media heavily. It complicates what we have just discussed by explaining how large media companies such as Facebook track and manipulate behaviour to steal your attention. Individual willpower can counter that only to a point; something broader must change. The first step is awareness. I’m not saying that social media is inherently bad, but you should recognise that it can slowly steer you in a direction without you noticing the manipulation. When you know what you truly want and can temporarily block out what is happening around you, you are more likely to remain happy and healthy. I think the book is excellent.
James: It came out only recently and is on my reading list. I’ve been thinking about it for a while and know he spent a long time writing it, so I’m excited to get my hands on it.
Outro#
James: Thanks so much for our chat today, Ingrid. It was fascinating to hear your story, including your recoveries and this idea of connecting with nature. I think it is fundamental today. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
James: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. If you’d like my takeaways from the podcast, follow the link in the description to GraduateTheory.com and subscribe to the newsletter to receive my top three takeaways from each episode. You can also subscribe on whichever platform you’re using.
I hope you enjoyed this episode, and I look forward to seeing you next time.