This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today’s episode, we cover a wide variety of topics. We go through comparing yourself to others and how to stop doing that; the importance of reading, what it means to read books and how you can get the most out of doing that; and range, and why that’s an important thing to keep in mind as you go through your career. This episode was really great. I’m really excited for it, so please enjoy.
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a man of many talents. He’s had many side hustles, including tutoring high school students, writing books and podcasting. He’s an account manager by day. My guest co-hosts the What You Will Learn podcast. It has over 3 million downloads, and he’s interviewed some of the best authors in the world.
The podcast is all about the best lessons from books and has also resulted in his own book, The Shit They Never Taught You. It came out earlier this year, compiling the lessons that the hosts have learnt from their reading. My guest today is a very accomplished and definitely well-read man. Please welcome Adam Ashton.
Adam Ashton: Thanks, man. I’m looking forward to it. We’ve got a lot in common, so I’m sure there’ll be lots to talk about. Also, I wonder where you got that three million stat, because I think we just cracked five. I’ll have to update that wherever it is.
James: I think I actually heard it from another podcast episode you were on. Perhaps, in the time since that was recorded—that’s why I was trying to go with “over 3 million”, because I knew it would be—
Adam Ashton: It is over 3 million.
James: It’s at least five to me now, which is even better.
Adam’s Graduate Experience#
James: Fantastic. I want to start with your experience as a grad. As you said, we’ve got things in common: I’m a grad at ANZ at the moment, and it turns out you were a grad at ANZ as well about five years ago. I know you’ve done a lot of things on the side through uni and even through to what you’re doing now, but first, what was your experience as a grad like, and what did you take from that into the things you do today?
Adam Ashton: Well, I went down the probably fortuitous path where I managed to jag the internship first. It was an eight-week internship over summer, the year before finishing uni. I did the internship, and then it was a “try before you buy”: some people got offered a graduate spot, and then they’d go back and finish the year of uni knowing that they had that gig locked in for the following year. There were probably 40 interns. I don’t know how many spots they were trying to fill. In my specific area, there were 10 or 12 interns probably going for five or six spots.
It was funny: I met up with some of my mates from that internship just last month, and they were saying that, at the time, they were like, “Okay, Josh, I know he’s getting in. Suroosh, I know he’s getting in. It was good to see Adam over this eight-week internship, but I don’t think we’re going to see him again.” Then they were perplexed on day one when I walked back in. They were shocked that I managed to get that offer.
That probably gives you a little bit of insight: I probably wasn’t the best intern, and I definitely wasn’t the best grad, but I obviously did enough and knew enough to impress enough people to get that early offer for the graduate program.
In all honesty, I probably just didn’t know what I wanted to do or what I should be doing. That was the easy path, I guess, because I was doing commerce and everybody was applying for internships. I thought, “If this is the game, this is the competition—who can get this spot? I guess I like competing, so I’ll see if I can get this job offer.”
I managed to get that job offer, and then I thought, “Okay, the game now is to compete to get this grad spot.” I did what I had to do to compete for that grad spot. Each time, the game was evolving without me really thinking about what game I was playing. I was just thinking, “This is what I’m doing, so I’m going to see if I can do it as well as I can,” without ever taking that step back to think, “What do I want to do?”
I wasn’t the best grad because the game then disappeared. It was like, “I’ve got the grad role now. What’s the game now?” I didn’t really know where I was headed or what I was going to do, so I didn’t do a whole lot, in all honesty. It was a short-lived graduate experience, that’s for sure.
James: That’s cool. I’ve been reading a bit about intentionality recently.
Comparing Yourself at the 10 Year Reunion#
James: As you were saying, you were in that competition to get grad roles and do the successful things at work, without really having a reason or deciding to do that yourself. You were just following along with no real direction. Is intentionality something you bring to the things you do now more than you did in the past?
Adam Ashton: Definitely. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still get those pangs of envy when I see other people. We were meant to have our 10-year high school reunion, but COVID put that off and cancelled it a couple of times, so we haven’t had it yet. Still, at that 10-year mark, there are different people doing different things: some have climbed the corporate ladder, got fancy titles and big salaries, and travelled around the world.
There are still those pangs of envy that, if I’d stuck it out and worked harder at this specific thing on this narrow path, I probably could have climbed up if I’d chosen to do that. At the same time, there are definitely no regrets. There’s much more intentionality around carving my own path and trying to work out my own way through, as opposed to just following the well-worn path laid out in front of me.
James: I think that’s really cool. That whole intentionality—really deciding what you’re going to do—is so important. Even if you managed to get 10 years into a corporate career and get the fancy title, as you said, you might not have enjoyed doing that. Actually deciding to do it and having an interest in it are important, because you don’t want to spend so long doing something and then realise, “Okay, I’m going to take control over what I’m doing.” You haven’t necessarily wasted that time, but it becomes harder because you’ve sunk so much time into the same thing.
Adam Ashton: Definitely. I wouldn’t have enjoyed it at all. I don’t think I would have enjoyed the path or the destination, so it’s good to know that. Obviously, it would have been better to know even earlier, but it was probably something I had to do. If I’d gone somewhere completely different from the start, I probably would have had more “what ifs”. Because I’d started along that path and knew what was lying ahead, I can sleep a bit easier at night knowing that I’m not missing out.
James: Going back to what you were saying about the 10-year reunion, I had my five-year reunion recently. You can start to see that come into things: this person is doing that, so what have I done with my five years? Have I just been lazy? You start comparing yourself to everyone.
How do you deal with that when you’re faced with someone who’s done some cool thing? You almost shine the light back on yourself and think, “Why haven’t I done something like that?” Even in your case, where maybe you didn’t want to do that, it’s still hard not to think, “I could have done that if I wanted to, but I chose not to.”
Adam Ashton: Definitely. One part is recognising that their goal is not your goal, their position is not your position and their trajectory is not your trajectory. They’re on their own path, and you’re on your own path.
The probably even better part is recognising that, whatever they did to achieve their success, they obviously worked hard, knew somebody, tried a lot of things or did whatever they did to get where they are. You can probably do that as well. Rather than looking at them with envy, look at them with admiration and think, “Good on them. They’ve done that. I could probably do the same thing if I wanted to emulate that. What can I do as well?” Don’t look at it as, “Poor, woe is me. They’re up there and I’m down here.” Think, “They got there somehow. What can I take from them and apply to my own trajectory and journey?”
James: I like that a lot. You can say, “Good on them for doing such a cool thing. Congratulations, you’ve done so well,” and have more of a collaborative outlook. Otherwise, it becomes a competition where they’re up here and I’m down here. You’re comparing yourself, and it could even affect the relationship because, whenever you speak to them, you’re thinking, “You’re doing this and I’m doing this, so I don’t feel worthy to speak to you,” or, “I don’t like you because you’re further ahead than me.”
Instead, it could be something really great: they’re in this position, and it could be a fantastic opportunity to connect with them, work out how they did it and take some of those lessons into what you’re doing yourself.
Adam Ashton: Most certainly. It works in multiple ways with your other friends who are doing different things. It starts to happen at five years, but 10 years is really when it happens. At five years, people are probably still at uni or just finishing uni. At 10 years, you’ve got a few years of your career under your belt. Some people have really accelerated and some haven’t, so those differences start to appear. The one that’s worse for me is looking at people who are five years younger and have accelerated past me. That’s probably harder than the people who were at my level and went higher, but that’s probably a different story.
Leaving a Graduate Role#
James: That’s funny. Let’s talk a little more about your career. As you said, you were a grad at ANZ, and you didn’t really enjoy it or see yourself going further down the traditional corporate path. What happened after that? Did you change jobs? What were your thoughts at that stage?
Adam Ashton: I did that eight-week internship and the first six-month rotation, then got about halfway through the second six-month rotation. That whole time—even while I was at uni—I tried and started a couple of small businesses. They were mostly me selling my time for money and trying to scale that, as opposed to creating a product or an app. I’d done those, so I already had that itch. Then I started reading books and was exposed to a whole bunch of different ideas.
Initially, I thought the path I was on was the only path there was. Then I started to see all these different paths that were possible. I went to Tony Robbins as well, walked on fire at Unleash the Power Within, and that was probably the moment when I thought, “I’m not liking this. I’m not going anywhere.”
The problem was that I wasn’t doing it properly. My mind was elsewhere, so I wasn’t really focused. I wasn’t doing the job properly, learning anything or doing what I should have been doing. The best thing for me was just to get out. It was the circuit-breaker I needed. It wasn’t like I quit and everything became clear; it was still very murky, and probably still is a bit murky. But it was enough to start forcing some intentionality and make me think a little more about where I wanted to head.
Tony Robbins and Career Exploration#
James: That’s really cool. It’s interesting that you went to a Tony Robbins event, because I’ve seen them around as well. He definitely hasn’t done them in person in Australia in the last two years, which is probably when I would have started looking, since I’ve been working for the last year.
I’m curious to hear your thoughts on doing those things: paying for courses and almost upskilling, if you want to call it that, or having those soft-skill experiences. What was your process for deciding to do that? Was there anything that led you to see it as an opportunity and really want to pursue it?
Adam Ashton: I wanted more than I was already getting. I wasn’t content with the job and career path I was on, so I wanted something else. It came in different forms: the free stuff, like listening to podcasts and trying to meet different people all the time; the smaller paid stuff, mostly books—as you can see, I’ve got a shitload of books behind me—and the bigger stuff, like in-person events or courses. It came from always wanting more, wanting to learn more, wanting to do something different and wanting to try different things.
That was very good at the time, but I think it comes to a point where you need to stop trying to take in more information and start doing stuff. If, five years later, I was still going to all these courses and trying to find the right thing, I think that would be bad. But I was in that searching period for a little while, then started making decisions and commitments and taking the next path. That was definitely a good thing.
The Learning and Doing Balance#
James: I found that too, in what you said about reading and doing: you can almost make learning your full-time thing rather than acting on it. In 2020, my goal was to read 52 books in a year. I was going to read a lot and sort of cheat by listening to audiobooks as well. As I got closer to the end of the year, I had six or seven to do in December, so the pressure was on. I was reading as much as I could, but not because I wanted to or because I thought, “I’ll read this book and it will be valuable in this way.” I was just racing to get to a particular number.
That can happen with courses and books: reading the book is almost a mini achievement, rather than getting the achievement from doing something with what’s in the book, which is much more important.
Adam Ashton: I think people can get addicted to learning, and it becomes another game or competition. Like my competition to get that job and then the graduate position, it’s almost a competition with yourself: how many books can you read? There’s no intentionality about what you’re reading and why.
I did some of those courses as well. I did Seth Godin’s Marketing Seminar and the Podcasting Workshop, and then coached the Podcasting Workshop a couple of times. I’ve definitely seen people in those realms who keep doing all the different courses, compared with people who do one or two, then take what they’ve learnt and actually apply it. You can get addicted to learning, which isn’t the worst addiction—there are plenty of worse addictions out there—but if you can get over that learning addiction and turn it into a doing addiction, that’s probably even better.
James: I totally agree. That’s why I really like what you’ve done with your podcast, What You Will Learn, and the book. If you were just reading books and taking notes as your only thing—which is obviously a massive part of the podcast—that by itself isn’t a waste of time, but you’re in that learning-addiction phase. When you implement it in the podcast, share that information and condense it into something valuable for people, it makes what you’re doing really valuable.
Consumption, Curation and Creation#
James: It’s a great example of taking something you’re learning and repackaging it—making a YouTube channel about it or something—which teaches you real skills and converts that thing into something that’s—
Adam Ashton: It’s a good hack, a good middle ground. A lot of people go through the learning or consumption phase, where you’re reading and learning from books. Then a lot of people want to get to the creation phase, which is doing something: starting a business, working really hard to get a promotion and fancy new title at work, or taking on some creative endeavour on the side. Whatever it is, people want to get to that point.
A good middle step between consumption and creation is curation, which is where we went with the podcast. We were learning all this stuff, then trying to share it with people. We broke it down and made it a little simpler for people who wanted to consume it but probably didn’t have time to read a book every week.
We could be that middle ground. It was a good hack for them: they didn’t have to read a book every week, but could listen to a 30-minute podcast episode and get 80% of the value. It was also a good hack for us because we probably couldn’t jump straight to the creation phase of making our own new stuff.
It was a good middle ground where we didn’t feel as much pressure because we weren’t trying to teach everybody all our own stuff. We’re not these gurus, these masters at the top of the hill, preaching that we’re right, you’re wrong and this is how you should do it. We were in the middle ground, reading books and sharing that. It was a nice halfway step, a good little hack.
James: I haven’t heard it described like that before. That’s a really cool way of thinking about it.
The Start of What You Will Learn#
James: I’m interested to hear more about the podcast now. What was the story and starting point? How did it begin?
Adam Ashton: That was probably the best thing that came out of the ANZ grad program. It started through that program. My other mate, also called Adam, and I had finished uni around the same time and started our grad programs in big corporate jobs in the city at the same time.
We were meeting up beforehand and thought, “Let’s try to keep meeting up.” For us, it was also an attempt to meet some girls. We’d have our Friday morning coffee and breakfast, and in the first week we invited probably five or six girls, plus us two guys and maybe one or two other guys as well. The numbers dwindled slowly until me and Adam were the only ones left.
We started talking about books and what we were reading because we both liked reading. Then we thought, “We’re already talking about books, but we’re talking about different books that the other person knows nothing about. Let’s sync up and read the same thing at the same time, so we know what the other person’s talking about and can discuss it more deeply together.”
Then it was, “We’re already meeting up once a week to talk about what books we’ve read. Let’s whack a microphone in the middle, hit record and see how it goes.” That’s the natural evolution of how it went. We’d hit record, talk the shit we normally would over coffees, but this time with a mic between us, then hit stop, upload it and gradually get more serious over time.
James: That’s a great story. Starting things organically, when it’s something you’d be doing anyway, is a great way to introduce yourself to what you were saying about going from the consumer to the curator to the creator. It’s a great first step: “We’re doing this anyway.” You’re not doing it because you have a huge audience that’s going to listen; even if it’s just for your own resources, you can go back in the future and say, “What was that book we read? What did I think about it?”
That’s one of the main reasons I write a blog post or do something like that: so I can go back and see it later, not really—at this stage, at least—for any massive audience. I think the story of how you started is great.
Adam Ashton: That’s really what it was. There were probably dreams and aspirations of being the next Joe Rogan or Tim Ferriss or something, but more realistically, part of it was that we weren’t really adding a whole lot. We wanted to do some kind of side thing, so it was an easy entry point. But we also thought, “It’d be nice if people listen, but if they don’t, what are we going to get out of it?”
There were so many benefits to starting a podcast. There was the book element: it forced us to read more. In 2021, I did about 75 books, whereas at the time I was reading 25 or maybe 30 a year. It forced us to ramp that up to a book a week.
There was also a massive increase in retention. A lot of those first 30 books felt good at the time, and there was probably good stuff in them, but I couldn’t tell you what was in them. Dissecting the book, taking notes, preparing an episode, talking about it, editing the episode and listening back forced us to retain much more of what we were learning.
Then there were the hard skills of podcasting: what equipment do you get, how do you record it and where does it go afterwards? There was that specific podcast skill, but also broader meta skills like communication, listening, speaking, public speaking, reducing how many times you say “um”, being clear and concise, and having some kind of arc so you don’t ramble on and on, but have a point.
There were all these benefits to starting a podcast. Even if nobody listened, it was going to be a great project for us. There was no downside except for the time investment and 25 bucks to buy a book, and the upside was that maybe somebody would listen one day.
James: That’s such a good way to look at a side hustle or project: even if this completely flopped and nothing happened, would it still be beneficial? If it would, that’s a great sign that it’s worth doing.
Adam Ashton: If you go into it thinking, “We’re going to start a podcast, and in six months we’ll have 100,000 listeners every week. We’ll make 10 grand a month, quit our jobs, stick the finger up at the boss, run around, and this will be our full-time job,” you’re almost definitely not going to achieve that goal. You’ll be so focused on the end goal, the money, the listeners and trying to do all that stuff that you’re not in it for the right reasons.
Instead, your downside could just be personal growth, personal development, learning and improving yourself. Then maybe, down the track, you do make all that money, have all those listeners, become the next Oprah Winfrey of podcasting and get massive. That’s great.
James: That’s really important: enjoying the process versus having some clear idea that, “This is definitely going to happen, and then life will be good. Once I quit my job and earn this much money from the podcast, it’ll be so good.” Instead, as you said, you can do it because it’s fun. If it ends up being something good, that’s great; if not, that’s also fine.
Adam Ashton: Exactly. It comes down to two different types of motivation. With extrinsic motivation, you’re doing it for the money because you want to make five or 10 grand a month. If, after a month, you’re sitting on $0—or probably negative dollars after buying your mic—you think, “This isn’t working, so I’m going to quit.” Compare that with intrinsic motivation: you want to do it because you’re developing skills. After a month, you’ve definitely ticked that box. You’re achieving those goals and you’re well on the way.
Cautions on Working on Side Projects While at Work#
James: Before the podcast, we talked about things that happened in the workplace while doing this stuff on the side. Was there any friction between engaging in this commercial endeavour and being involved in full-time work? How did you navigate that?
Adam Ashton: Definitely a lot of friction, mostly self-inflicted and probably my fault because of the way I did it. But I’m keen to hear yours as well. I half know the ANZ culture, I’d say. How have you gone inside the ANZ grad program while also doing a podcast on the side? Who do you tell? What do you tell them? Does anybody know? Is it top secret? What’s the go? Then I’ll give you my version as well.
James: I was quite upfront with it. I wasn’t sure what to do, because I was preparing in case it became something really big and I devoted all this time to it. I wasn’t sure how it worked when, at some companies, something you work on on the side can still count as the company’s property—they own everything you do.
I emailed some of the HR girls and said, “This is what I’m thinking of doing.” Then I had to put in a form. I’m not sure of the exact name, but it’s a declaration of conflict or something. It’s similar to what you would do if you were employed in a high position and your brother was the CEO of another company in the same field—that kind of conflict.
They said, “It seems pretty fine to me,” so there were no issues, which was great. A lot of the grads and everyone know about it. Some of them will be listening to this episode, I’m sure, and they’re all quite supportive. So far, I haven’t run into any problems, which has been great.
Adam Ashton: That’s good. My first big flop—the wrong way to go about it—was when I was at ANZ and we started this podcast. We were reading all these books and learning all this stuff. You’d read The One Minute Manager and think, “Man, my boss is so shit. Why doesn’t she read this book? She’d be so much better as a manager.” Then you’d think, “This other guy in my team is so bad at time management. Why doesn’t he read Eat That Frog!? He could be good at managing his time and wouldn’t have to work so hard because he’d get more done.”
The first 10 books probably gave us that high-and-mighty attitude: “I’m so good. I’m better than you. Why don’t you read this stuff?” I wasn’t blatantly going up to my boss and saying, “You’re a bad manager. You should read this book,” but I probably had an air of superiority that was completely—ridiculously—unwarranted. When people first start reading books, I reckon everyone gets a little bit of that.
Then I started telling people about the podcast. It was so early on that it was ridiculous to think anything of it. We’d get 100 downloads or something. It was impressive to us at the time, but to somebody else, it was, “Why should I care? What’s the difference? Why are you wasting all this time? Just do your job.” I went about it the wrong way at ANZ, and it was ridiculous and completely unwarranted at the time.
We didn’t mention it, but I also went into the Linfox grad program after the ANZ grad program. I thought, “I did it all wrong last time. This time, I’m going to do it right. I’m not going to say anything about reading books, the podcast or anything else.” I was also writing my own book. I got to the point where I’d spent almost two years writing it, finally finished it, sent it to the printers and was getting 2,000 copies shipped on a pallet. Heaps and heaps of big boxes were coming to my place on a Tuesday afternoon at 4:00 pm or something.
I managed to sneak out without telling anyone. I didn’t say, “I’m going to pick up this book I just wrote,” because I didn’t want to tell anybody. I got home and had missed them by about 20 minutes. They said, “We’re going to have to come back tomorrow.”
I thought, “Oh shit, what do I do now? I should have just faked a sickie.” But I called my boss and said, “Sorry, I had to rush off because I’d written and printed this book. I was getting 2,000 copies and had to get them, but I missed them, so now I’m going to have to stay home tomorrow to get this book.”
At the time, he said, “That’s good. Bring us a copy and show it around the next day when you come back.” I wondered, “Should I do that?” The answer was no; I probably shouldn’t have at that time and place. But I did. The next day, I brought in a book and showed people, and I could tell from that moment that things had shifted again.
This isn’t to say it’ll be the same for every company and situation, but for me, the team I was in, the people I was working with and probably the attitude I was carrying were a horrendous mix. That was my stumbling block. Fast-forward maybe six weeks, and I could tell the boss’s perception of me had changed in the wrong way.
I was in a team with a lot of older people who had been at the company—and probably in the same role—for a long time. They were a bit older and slower. They knew what they had to do, got it done and went home at 5:01 every day. I came in with a little more youthful exuberance and energy, and probably tried to work a little harder after my first failure at ANZ.
I had to see HR because she said the boss had said a few things about me, and she wanted to check that everything was okay. She said the boss had told her, “I think Adam’s working on another book on work time.” I said, “What?” Apparently, the reason was that I was typing too fast, working too hard and was too enthusiastic at work. I asked, “How is that a bad thing?” She said, “Maybe it would be a good idea if you just typed slower.”
I said, “So I do less work, and that’s going to be better?” Everybody around me was old and slow. They did what they had to do, kept their heads down, stayed in their lanes, and that was that. I’d come in and tried to do a few different things, and that was a bad thing.
You definitely have to be careful who you tell, what you tell them, how and when you do it, and whether you should do it at all. That was another red flag. Long story short, I wasn’t in that grad program for too long before leaving again.
James: That’s a cool story. Now you’ve had the experience, it makes it easier, but it’s hard to know at the time. It’s a useful lesson for people listening: make sure you’re careful about what you’re sharing—
Adam Ashton: I learnt the lesson the first time and knew I shouldn’t be doing it, but I couldn’t resist the second time. I was so proud of doing this book at 22 or 23 years old. I’d done it and got 2,000 copies. I was too excited to keep it to myself.
That’s not to say everybody would have the same experience, but you have to think about who you tell, and how, when and why. If you’re in the right place, a lot of people will be super supportive, because they know that doing a podcast means I’m learning a lot of stuff and can speak better. Maybe there’s an opportunity for me to present something at a meeting because I’ve improved these skills.
I’d written this book on my own time, not on work time as the boss had suspected. I’d worked hard to interview these people, get all this information and collate it into a concise book. Maybe there’s an opportunity outside the normal job where they can say, “You’ve done this before. Can you do a media release, or something else that uses the skills you’ve learnt outside?”
If you’re in the right place, they’ll recognise that doing things on the side does build your skills. It makes you more valuable and useful to the organisation, and they’ll tap into that. Of course, if you’re in the wrong organisation or team, or have the wrong boss, you have to be careful. They might see it as a negative, as detracting value: “You’re improving over here, so you’re going down over in my team.” It’s a weird way to look at it, but a lot of people do.
James: I’m really glad you shared that, because I wouldn’t have considered that it could happen. For anyone doing something on the side, it’s important to be upfront about it in some ways, but also to be conscious of the team and environment you’re in. If you want to work there in the long term, is it going to be a good thing to share? In some cases, you have to be careful. As you said, it’s unfortunate that a team wouldn’t want to support you, but it’s something you’ve got to keep your eye on.
Adam Ashton: Most certainly, but at least it makes for a good story.
Favourite lessons from The Shit They Never Taught You#
James: So, the book you shared with the guys at work—now you’ve gone on to write a second book. Or at least, perhaps it’s not your second; I know you do a lot of this kind of thing.
Adam Ashton: Probably second.
James: Well, you’ve written The Shit They Never Taught You. It’s fantastic. I was going to call it a summary, but I know it’s much more than that. You’ve combined things so nicely, with a lot of interaction between the summaries. It’s a really great book and probably one of the best I’ve read, to be honest. It’s huge as well. It’s something you can always turn back to and find a particular section to look at.
Of all the books you’ve read and the work around your book, are there any key lessons that are front of mind and that you use today?
Adam Ashton: Definitely. I think it’s lesson seven, “The Various Paths to Mastery”, the first lesson of our career section. It’s the idea about the two different ways to achieve mastery or success.
Range and Mastery#
Adam Ashton: Probably the biggest one—a real face-slapper and eye-opener for me—was a book you’ve mentioned a couple of times on the podcast: Range by David Epstein. I read it at the very end of 2019, then read it again two weeks later at the start of 2020. It was so good that I had to read it twice within a couple of weeks. Do you want to give your quick summary of Range, then I’ll explain how I think about and apply it?
James: Sure. I don’t know whether I’m biased because I’m pursuing the range path as well. Maybe that makes me like it more.
Adam Ashton: That’s definitely me.
James: It’s the idea that being more of a generalist can lead to synergies down the line that make you more effective, rather than picking one niche and going at it 100%.
The book gives the example of Roger Federer and Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods started to play golf when he was very young—about five or six, I think—and has gone 100% on golf since then. He’s obviously gone on to become a world champion, and is really famous and all that.
Roger Federer is the opposite in a lot of ways. He played soccer and did all these other sports, and only started playing tennis properly when he was about 16. The idea is that having those experiences behind him allowed him to become much better at tennis than he would have been if he’d taken the Tiger Woods approach to tennis.
Some things in life are like golf and chess: they’re based on pattern recognition, it’s easy to predict what’s going on, and to get good at them you have to practise a lot and go 100%. But a lot of things in life, at least according to David Epstein, are more like tennis, where the game is more unpredictable and you need a variety of experiences to succeed more easily.
That’s my summary. It affects my career choices by making me want a background in heaps of different areas. Sometimes, the crossover between areas allows you to have new insights or add more value than someone who’s only been exposed to one particular area.
Adam Ashton: That was a good summary. You should do a book.
For me, it was a real eye-opener to see the specialist and the generalist. We rebranded it as going wide versus going deep. If there is an area you want to specialise in, and it’s more like golf or chess—a profession where there’s a clear answer and way to do it—the way to achieve success is to be the best person at that. That means working the hardest in that one niche field and going really, really deep.
The books that link with that include Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, which talks about Anders Ericsson’s 10,000-hour rule and the violinists who practised for 10,000 hours and achieved mastery. It’s saying, if you want to go deep in something, get your 10,000 hours. Work really hard, work more than everybody else, learn more than everybody else and achieve better things than everybody else.
We also linked in Grit by Angela Duckworth, which says that the path is going to be bloody tough. You need a bit of grit to get through. You need to pick the right thing to go deep at, then use grit to get through those 10,000 hours. At the end of that journey, you become a master in your field and successful, if that’s the path you choose. It’s a very viable path to success, but it’s not the only one.
A lot of people probably think the only path is to work really, really hard at one thing and become the best at it. But another way to achieve success is going wide: the generalist approach. We used Range, as I said, and Originals by Adam Grant to show that it isn’t just the person who works hardest. Maybe it’s the person who’s done two years in this, three years in that, two years over here and another four years over there.
At the time, it looks like a weird path. They’re jumping between different things and learning skills that seem unrelated. But at the end, they magically come to the intersection of all these different skills. They find the synergies and ways to stack these things together, so they become the best at one niche intersection of all these things—one that nobody else could possibly do because they haven’t built all the different skills.
As you said, you’re probably biased towards that because it’s the path you’re on, and that’s definitely me as well. I think it holds a lot of merit. Just knowing there’s another path besides picking one thing and working really hard at it is valuable. If you do jump between things, don’t just quit something because you don’t like it, then try something else and quit that because you don’t like it. You need intentionality around the different skills you’re building. It might seem like you’re a failure at the start, but in the end you magically stack all these different things together to achieve your own success.
James: I think it’s so important. A lot of these books are fantastic at giving you insights into themes behind people who have done great things, and it’s important to get different perspectives: the Range perspective and the go-deep-in-one-area perspective.
That’s why reading books has been so good. Getting those inputs and hearing stories from heaps of different angles helps you formulate your own opinions and better choose the path you want to go down. There’s so much value to be gained, but only if you act on what you’ve read as well.
What Drives Adam to be Successful#
James: I want to ask you about success. When we talk about range, we might say, “I’m going to take the range path in my career and become a generalist because that will make me successful.” What’s the driving factor behind your desire to succeed? Are there any motivations that stand out as the reasons you want to go down that path?
Adam Ashton: It’s an interesting one. It’s probably partly my inbuilt competitive nature. To go a little introspective, I have a high opinion of myself and think I’m very good, so I think I should work hard to prove to everybody else that I’m as good as I think I am.
There’s also a societal norm, or just the nature of what everyone strives towards. These are the types of things conventionally recognised as success, so if I want to be successful, I’ve got to achieve those things.
I think I’ve matured a little in that. At the start of my career, success meant a fancy title, a good job, a big house and lots of money. Now, I’m working towards autonomy and control. “Freedom” is probably used too loosely—financial freedom and stuff—so, although it is freedom, I don’t really like that word. I’d say more flexibility, more choices and more options.
The financial year just gone was the first time my side income overtook my full-time income. I’m still working full-time and doing all this stuff on the side. When I was 21, my goal was to make a million dollars or whatever, whereas now the goal is just to have options. I’m still working full-time, but I’ve got this side stuff that’s growing. When I first quit ANZ, I thought there was side income when there really wasn’t anything sustainable.
Now, it’s more about flexibility. It’s not just about sitting at a desk at 6:00 am and working until 8:00 pm. It’s, “What can I do that provides a lot of value, is highly leveraged and is effective work, where I can do two or three hours of really hard work and then play golf in the afternoon?”
It’s not necessarily about working hard to get more money, status, clients, business and success in that sense. It’s about what I can do that adds value, then using the rest of the time to do things I enjoy, whether that’s seeing friends, trying new hobbies, reading, learning or doing other stuff on the side. A lot of the time, the choice I make is to do extra stuff and more work—not because I have to, but because I want to. The option to do other things is still there.
James: That was a really good answer.
Adam Ashton: I think it was a good question.
James: It’s important to understand, because even I don’t think about it very often. Why aren’t I just playing video games all day? It’s probably because that isn’t very fulfilling.
As you said, we’ve got so much to offer. It’d be a waste not to go out and make the world a better place because of the things we can do. That goes not just for me, but for everyone, including the people listening. Everyone has something unique to offer. You can look at this from many angles, but it’s important to consider why you’re on the success train: why are you actually doing the things you want to do?
Getting clear on that intrinsic motivation is important. It leads into intentionality and helps you make choices and career decisions based on the life and things you want.
Adam Ashton: I really like reading two books where you read one and think, “Oh my God, this is incredible. Here’s the answer. This is the one thing. This is amazing.” Then you read another and think, “Oh my God, this is incredible. This is the answer. This is perfect.” But then you realise they’re saying opposite things and are both true.
For example, Outliers and Range are saying opposite things. One says, “Work really hard and get really good at this one thing.” Range says, “Go wide, get really good at a whole bunch of things and stack them together.” They’re opposites. There are other books that seem 100% right but are also 180 degrees opposed.
I’m looking forward to my next batch. Another friend who does a book podcast has been talking about two books. Four Thousand Weeks says you’ve got, on average, 4,000 weeks to live. Life is short, you’re going to die soon, so everything matters. You’ve got to work really hard because everything matters.
Then there’s another book she recommends, The Sunny Nihilist, which talks about nihilism and takes a more relaxed approach: life is short, you’re going to die, so nothing matters. They’re both true. You can say, “Man, I’ve got such limited time. I’ve got to work hard to achieve all these things,” and that’s true. Or you can say, “I’ve got such limited time. What does it matter? I can kick my feet up and take the video-game path,” and that’s probably true as well. Which should you pick?
James: It’s great that you can read books and get those perspectives. It’s important not to go 100% one way, and to realise there’s an alternative—a pretty good one. It isn’t just a random idea someone had on a Sunday afternoon; there’s merit behind these alternatives.
How To Start Reading#
James: I’ve got two more things I want to ask. One is a more basic question: perhaps people listening to us talk about all these books want to start their reading journey. What advice would you give someone who’s starting to read and develop that habit and interest?
Adam Ashton: For me, it started with listening to podcasts like Tim Ferriss or James Altucher. They’d interview successful people from different fields, and it seemed every successful person had a book they could point to and say, “I read this book, and it changed my perspective,” or, “It gave me one idea that revolutionised everything.”
I thought, “Damn, if all these successful people and powerful businesswomen and men are reading books, I should start reading them as well.” That’s probably where I first had the idea. I felt like I wanted to read books, not that I had to.
If you’re listening to this and think, “Adam and James are saying we should read books, so I’d better start,” it isn’t going to work. That’s like high school, where you’ve got to read Shakespeare, Dickens and all this crap because you have to, even though you don’t want to. Genuinely wanting to read is the first step to developing the habit. Similarly, pick books you’re genuinely interested in and naturally curious about, not just books somebody says are the best and that you have to read. That’s the meta level: want to read first, then pick books you’re interested in.
The on-the-ground stuff is not viewing reading as a big task where you have to set aside an hour of pure silence with no distractions and lie there reading. That feels like a chore. For me, it’s more, “I’ve got a pocket of five minutes here, so I’ll read a couple of pages. I’ve got a spare 12 minutes over here, so I’ll read a little.” I fit it between the cracks of the day, which seems easy compared with blocking out one big batch of time as your reading time.
James: That idea you mentioned earlier—being interested in doing it first—is fundamental to so many things. You don’t want it to be, “I have to read. If I want to become successful, I have to read,” and then force yourself through books. You won’t get anything out of that. It’ll probably be more of a waste of time than doing nothing, because it’s more painful.
Adam’s Advice for Graduates#
James: To finish, Adam, we’ve spoken about your grad experience and the podcast. What advice would you give to graduates listening who might be in their first year in the workplace, knowing everything you know and all the experiences you’ve had?
Adam Ashton: Before we started, I had three things in mind, but I’m going to change them. Maybe, in a year or two, we’ll have to do a second episode and I’ll give the other three I was going to give—although maybe they’ll have changed by then. I’m going to combine the first answer I gave with the last one about the whole grad experience.
The first time, I saw it as a game and competition. I thought I was in it, so I had to do it and beat everybody else. It was the path everyone was taking, so I thought, “I’m going to jump on this path and try to do it better than everybody else, because that’s what everybody does.” That was the wrong approach.
The right approach is the “want to” approach we spoke about with reading. If you genuinely want to do it, are curious about it and see the benefits—things you can learn and apply to your work, career, business, relationships or friendships—you’re going to enjoy reading.
If I’d flipped my perspective on work and seen it as something I wanted to do, where I could develop skills, learn new things, build a reputation or brand, and build a network, it would have been a much better experience. If I were a grad now, I’m sure I’d be so much better than I was five years ago.
My advice isn’t to quit your grad job and start a business, or whatever you might be thinking. It’s to realise you can do both. You can have a full-time job plus stuff on the side; they aren’t competing and can complement each other. I should have placed more value on the grad experience, rather than dismissing it as, “I’m doing all this stuff on the side, so this stuff is less important.”
James: That’s great advice. It’s important to be conscious of things you’re going to enjoy doing and go down that path, rather than forcing yourself or doing things because someone told you to, or because you’re waiting for an outcome.
Adam Ashton: I want to add one clarification. When I say to do something because you want to, I don’t mean, “Find your passion, follow it, only do the things you want to do and don’t do anything else.” It’s more about realising there are opportunities everywhere and cultivating passion—finding a passion for something by doing it.
Don’t turn down a job offer because you say, “I don’t like banking, so I’m not going to do banking,” or, “I don’t like law, so I’m not going to do law.” That’s probably the wrong approach. If you do it properly, take it seriously and recognise the benefits, you’ll actually want to do it. It isn’t necessarily about picking something because you want to do it, but wanting to do it because you’ve picked it, if that makes sense.
James: It’s a cart-before-the-horse situation, which can be tricky. All that advice is really important. Take some time to think about how it impacts you, rather than just listening to the episode and ticking it off: “Listened to the episode. Done.” Think, “This is what the guys said. How does it impact me? What am I going to do as a result?” Be intentional about listening to this episode, too.
Outro#
James: Thanks so much for coming on today, Adam. We’ve had a fantastic chat. If people want to get in touch with you or hear more about what you do, where’s the best place to go?
Adam Ashton: For me personally, probably LinkedIn. Not that I’m active there at all, but I’ll check it at least. If you want to check out the podcast, go to WhatYouWillLearn.com or—you’re already listening to a podcast—search for What You Will Learn. The book’s there as well, The Shit They Never Taught You.
James: Amazing. Thanks so much for today, Adam. We’ll have you on in two years’ time to chat about some of your more—
Adam Ashton: I’ll give you those three answers I was actually going to give you next time.
James: Perfect. We’ll see you then.
James: Thanks so much for listening to Graduate Theory and for making it all the way to the end of this episode. If you’re interested in keeping in touch and hearing more about Graduate Theory, I’d really encourage you to subscribe wherever you may be.
If you want to find out more and get my insights and deeper thoughts on today’s episode, please go to GraduateTheory.com/subscribe, where you can subscribe to the newsletter and read my additional thoughts. Thanks so much again for listening today, and we’ll see you in the next episode.