This transcript has been edited for clarity and checked against the available source transcript and recording. Filler, false starts, and obvious transcription errors have been corrected without changing the speaker’s meaning.
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today’s episode marks the 10th episode of Graduate Theory, and I thought, what better way to recognise this milestone than to get to know me a little bit more and in a bit more detail?
Today’s episode is a flipped episode, so I will not be the one asking the questions. I’ve got Joe from the very first episode of the podcast to come and interview me. It’s going to be an interesting episode. You’re going to find out a lot more about me, the things I like and my opinions on a lot of things.
I hope this is insightful and gives you a bit more context about what I’m like behind the scenes and what I’m trying to get out of this experience and this podcast.
Even though I’m the one doing a lot of the talking, I still think there are some useful career lessons in this episode. I hope you enjoy. I know Christmas is coming soon too, so I’m wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas. If you want to get episodes like this straight to your inbox, please go to GraduateTheory.com and subscribe to the newsletter. When you’re there, you can get every episode, along with my thoughts and takeaways, straight to your inbox.
I hope you enjoy this episode and finding out more about me.
Intro#
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. Today’s episode is a special episode: it’s episode number 10. I thought, what better way to commemorate or recognise 10 episodes of the podcast than to flip the tables a little bit? Instead of me interviewing people and finding out more about them, I thought it would be nice to turn the tables and give the audience—the listener, you guys—some insight into me and the context behind my starting this podcast.
What are the reasons I did it? Where do I actually come from? What do I do? What are my thoughts on life and all that kind of stuff? To help me with this today, I’ve got on the line here Joe Wehbe, who some people might remember from the very first episode of the podcast. Joe, welcome to the show today.
Joe: Good to be back. Thank you very much. It’s a special privilege.
James: Fantastic. It’s great to have you on. Like I said, today it’s going to be a flipped classroom or flipped podcast, so Joe’s going to be the one asking me questions. Thanks so much for coming on today, Joe. I’m excited to dive in with you and see where we go.
Joe: Absolutely. It’s a good opportunity for me. My podcast is all solo, so I get to try interviewing for a change. We’ll see how we go. You’re very brave in giving me this platform—very, very brave—and I’m very sure I’ve listened to every episode that’s out so far.
I feel qualified in that sense, and I think it’s been an amazing start. Graduate Theory is such a great podcast, and it has such a great calibre of guests already. I think it is exciting for everyone listening to learn a little bit more about you.
Why Graduate Theory?#
Joe: I reckon we just jump straight in. The obvious place to start is: what was the inspiration for it? Where did that start? What was the first spark—the first little speck of this on the radar?
James: The first time I thought about doing something like this was in 2020, and I think it was around April. It was during the first big lockdowns, which I think were all across Australia at that time. We were locked inside, and I was sitting there thinking.
I was in my final year of university and finished at the end of 2020. I was thinking about life after university: what was that going to involve? I realised, “I don’t really know anything about the workforce or how to grow my career. How does that even work?” I knew nothing. I thought there were people I could speak to and connections I had at the time. I could speak to someone who had had a successful career, perhaps sit down with them and ask them some questions about it.
I had a lot of these ideas floating around in my head, but I put the podcast on pause. I honestly didn’t have the guts to do it. I thought it wasn’t going to work and was going to be a failure. I had a lot of self-doubt about this kind of thing: whether it would be worth my time, whether people would listen and all that kind of stuff.
Fast-forward probably a year and a half. In that period, I got a graduate job in Melbourne and moved there from Adelaide. The idea came up again when we had another lockdown in August. Maybe lockdowns are just a recipe for deep thinking. I don’t know.
Joe: And podcasts.
James: Hopefully. We were in lockdown again, and I thought, “This is something I’m still thinking about.” It had been on my mind a few times through the year. It came to me: “This is something I keep thinking about and feel drawn to, but am I really going to go through with this or not?”
I thought, “In five or 10 years, I’m going to wish that I had at least tried this and seen how it went.” I’m really glad that I have done it and for the lessons I’ve taken from the people I’ve spoken to already. Having these conversations has been a win-win. I get to speak to fascinating people about things I want to know about, such as growing your career. It’s also good for listeners because they can get in on those conversations as well.
I thought at the time, and especially now, that there is growing transparency with successful people. That is especially important in Australia because a lot of the things I was reading and watching, and a lot of the podcasts you might listen to, feature people in America whose stories aren’t as relatable. I thought that was a good reason to do this as well.
I found there wasn’t a place to go where I could find people who had gone to the same uni as me, done the same graduate experience as me or things like that. They were in this completely different environment. I thought, “I don’t think this really exists, or at least I haven’t been exposed to it. I could be the one to do this and really drive it.” That’s my reasoning for starting it, and I think it’s been a great success so far.
What have you learnt from the podcast so far?#
Joe: It’s fascinating. The same things really hold most people back from anything. I think it would be very relatable to anyone listening. Maybe they’re not thinking about starting a podcast, but it might be their next promotion, going for a graduate job or navigating the later stages of university. There are many fear-evoking situations where you think, “I’m not good enough.” That’s a natural part of progression. When you’re taking a step up, it’s growth you’re not used to, so there is always an adjustment and normally some doubt.
It might be interesting for anyone listening to know a bit more about James outside of Graduate Theory. You’re working in a typical graduate role too, which I’m very aware of. How have the nine episodes so far impacted the way you’re thinking about things and your confidence? Maybe not materially, because it hasn’t been that long—it isn’t like you’ve jumped industries or whatever—but have you noticed any change in how you think about work, your career or any of these typical things we all navigate, based on the advice and lessons from the guests?
James: One of the main things I’ve learnt comes back to what you were saying about self-doubt. It has been a common thread through a lot of the guests I’ve had on. They’ve mentioned doing something and not being sure whether they should do it, doubting themselves, experiencing imposter syndrome or all those other terms for essentially the same thing: you don’t think you can do something.
It’s been surprising because I know I’ve had those experiences, and one of the things I’ve asked them is, “I’ve had these things. Do you have those, and if so, how did you deal with them?” It has been common across a lot of the guests. They’ve all said, “I had that experience in this situation,” or whatever it was.
That has been insightful because it shows me that it is very normal to lack confidence when an opportunity comes up or when you’re thinking of doing something. Andrew, the guest I most recently interviewed, talked about how it gets easier over time as you recognise when you’re in that mode of doubting yourself and then push through it.
Having started the podcast, I’ve done that to some degree. Combining that experience with hearing all my guests talk about it, I’ve taken away that self-doubt is natural and something you can push past. Moments where you successfully push past it can build up, give you momentum and allow you to continue pushing yourself.
Joe: Well said. Andrew’s point there is incredible. I feel the same way. I guess he and I are probably the same age. I always say that once you’ve gone through a big challenge or tried something new three different times, you have enough examples to look back and see, “I always doubt myself in those ways.” You’ve established the pattern, but it’s hard. People your age or slightly younger—the typical listener—can easily hear that in theory, but until you’ve actually gone through and done it, you haven’t crossed that hurdle yet. It’s very natural.
You must get so much value out of the ritual of regularly talking to people who are just outside your situation. Even though they’re more advanced and have maybe, quote unquote, achieved more, you must thrive on the chance to take a beat, step out of your day-to-day, talk to them and get a reminder from their experience. I’m sure it’s very powerful for your life.
I’ll save you the hard question, because I know episode one was your favourite, with Joe Wehbe, the incredible author and thinker. But—
Which interview has been your favourite?#
Joe: Apart from episode one, what has been your favourite interview so far? What stood out?
James: Obviously episode one won that! No, I think each episode has some unique value. It’s been cool that there has been some crossover between all the episodes, but each one has still had a differentiating factor that provides a unique perspective on a particular problem or something you might experience in the workplace.
From that perspective, all the episodes have great value. For me, one that sticks out is the episode with Darren. We talked about some deeper psychology—I don’t know whether that’s the right term—rather than surface-level productivity tips or hacks. We were really diving into—
Joe: Something underlying, almost spiritual. I know that’s a bit of a woo-woo word.
Joe: People who listened to that episode will know it was a very grounded, not fluffy, conversation.
James: You’re spot on. Even though it gets spiritual in some sense, it is really quite fundamental. The more I’ve read about that kind of thing, the more I feel like this is what to focus on to create lasting change in yourself.
That episode was a great example, and we did get quite deep into that stuff. From that perspective, that one—and definitely that whole genre of spirituality, as you called it—is really interesting.
Joe: Whatever it is, it’s powerful. You’re preaching to the converted with me on that stuff. I absolutely agree. It is important to canvass all those levels. If this language is helpful, maybe the distinction is tactics: the specific, day-to-day, in-the-trenches work. Tactics normally serve a strategy, which is the overarching game plan. Some of those deeper things sit at a higher level. They almost dictate your goals and the energy with which you approach things. That’s why they’re so powerful.
Things cascade down from there. Once you’ve established, “I want to get a graduate job at X company,” that’s the goal. Then you’re thinking about strategy: “How am I going to get there? I need contacts and so on.” Then you might start thinking about tactics. It does cascade down that way, so the information at each stage is helpful.
That comes back to the value of the podcast approach you’re taking, because you have different people who probably specialise in different parts. I remember listening to that Darren conversation and thinking, “Wow, this guy’s just wiped the floor with me. I need to become a better guest.” But then I loved Oscar talking about listening. I haven’t heard many people talk about it. Listening is one of the most under-respected skills. Everyone knows it’s important, but no one appreciates how important it is, and he talked about it in such depth and occupied a really good niche.
That variety is really important, which is why everyone has to show up every week, I guess: you don’t know which thing you don’t know about yet. Maybe we’ll slide into some of the other lower-level stuff and unpack it a little bit.
How to be productive#
Joe: Do you have any key productivity tips—things that help you on the more day-to-day, micro side—that are top of mind and that you want to share with the listeners?
James: This is something I’ve done in the last couple of weeks to a month and have almost rediscovered. There’s a guy called Nir Eyal—I think that’s how you say his name—who wrote a book called Indistractable. I was listening to him on a podcast. I’ve read his book in the past, but for some reason, this particular podcast made the idea click with me much more.
His whole idea of productivity is to calendarise a lot of your life. He takes it to quite an extreme, where he calendarises literally everything. Every minute of his day is in the calendar: he’ll have an hour to be with the kids, an hour to do this or whatever. That is quite rigid, so I don’t do it to that degree.
But I like the idea of not having a to-do list and not just working through things ad hoc. It’s more like, “I’m going to spend an hour on this, and however much I get done is what it’s going to be.” That idea of time blocking is something Cal Newport also talks about.
I was researching this a few weeks ago. He has this notebook—a day-planning journal—where you can do time blocking in hard copy. He talks about this exact idea. Maybe you start with a to-do list, but its actual implementation is in your time: you might spend 25 minutes doing this, 25 minutes doing that and so on.
I’ve found recently that this has enabled me to get more done. When you have a to-do list, you think, “I’ll do this one,” but by the end of the day, maybe half of it is still left. You never finish the to-do list, at least in my experience, whereas you always go through the time. Having that time and saying, “This is a 50-minute block; I’m going to do this thing,” means consciously deciding to do it. By deciding that, you’re also deciding, “I’m not going to do this other stuff.”
At work, I’ll say, “I’m going to spend an hour doing this.” That means that during that hour, I’m not checking my emails or phone. They get closed, and the phone goes away, because I’ve decided to focus on this one thing.
Planning my day, deciding what to work on and bringing much more clarity to what I’m supposed to be doing at certain times has allowed me to get more done. Even at work, it has allowed me to participate in more things because I can do certain work faster, which means I have more time for other things.
That has been a bit of a game changer for me in the last month. I’d recommend that anyone listening look into it, because I think it’s very beneficial.
Joe: I’ve similarly started adopting an approach that fits that style. I think the lack of control we have is hard to overcome with planning. With time blocking, you’re allocating a certain amount of time to things, which you can control. You can control how much time you spend on things, but not how long they take to get done, because that’s fluctuating and dynamic.
The whole concept of productivity makes me think we have to acknowledge that there’s a toddler-like part of us that is so hard to get to do what we want. We have to be creative, intentional and structured about getting our inner toddler to do its work.
Also, many takeaways from Lydia’s episode—number seven, I believe—were about the athlete metaphor or comparison. That’s a really good addition to that advice because you have to put in time for rest, recovery and recuperation. We don’t really have that in the business or corporate world.
James: To add to that, coming back to what we discussed with Darren and the spirituality stuff, you almost want to reach a point where you don’t need these techniques, because work becomes something you actually want to do. Rather than setting yourself time because that’s the only way you’ll do it, you actually find it fun.
It’s also a game changer to make what you’re doing interesting and fun, so you don’t need to allocate two hours a week to a thing you don’t want to do. Maybe those things will always exist, but having more of what you enjoy is important in making productivity a natural state rather than something you force yourself into.
Joe: It’s pretty appealing if it makes things enjoyable. That’s a low-risk mindset for people to embrace, and I certainly try my best. Indistractable sounds like a good book, and I’m going to have to check it out.
My Favourite Book#
Joe: Which is a nice segue, because you’re a very avid reader, like me. You’ve even done things online about your reading. I have to ask: what’s the best book you’ve read?
James: It’s a tough question. I’ve had periods where I’ve sat down and read heaps of books, so I’ve gone through quite a few. We spoke earlier about the original idea for the podcast and then actually starting it a year and a half later, probably in September this year. In between, I had an Instagram account—it is still there—called James Notes. I was writing and making things about different books I’d read. It was a good experience, and although I’m not really active there anymore, it may have been one of the catalysts for starting the podcast.
Back to your question: it’s hard to narrow my favourite book of all time down to one. Even if I were recommending one to someone, it would depend on the situation. One I really enjoyed was High Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard.
Joe: I’ve heard of Brendon Burchard, but I haven’t read the book.
James: High Performance Habits was really great. One of the main lessons I got from it was intentionality. I’m not a messiah—I don’t practise it all the time. I’m still human, right?
Joe: A healthy disclaimer.
James: He talks about how you can be intentional in everything you do. Let’s say you come home from work and are about to see your family. What are you trying to get out of that experience? Who do you want to be, maybe as a dad or a partner? Who are you trying to be in that scenario? If you go into a meeting at work, who are you trying to be in that meeting? Reflect on what you aim to get out of it, who you want to be and what you want to be known for before you go into different situations.
Again, I don’t do this very often, but I’m trying to work it in more. It’s a good concept. Even listening to what I’m saying, I know it would be a good idea to start doing it. Before you do something, what’s its actual aim? Why am I doing it? What do I want to get out of this experience?
Even for something short, like a half-hour meeting, coming back to that is a good exercise. It can add 5–10% to everything you do and help make sure your authentic self is shining through in each situation.
Joe: Isn’t that fascinating? I know you’re very across Cal Newport, and I’m sure you’ve read a lot of books about high-performance habits and all that stuff. It sounds like this one stands out among that literature. Is that because of the emphasis on intentionality and its very explicit terms?
James: I think intentionality comes into almost everything. We were speaking about productivity just before: deciding what you’re going to do is being intentional. How am I showing up in certain places? How am I showing up to the podcast or at work?
It’s about not letting yourself fall into a haze where you’re just going through the day and doing whatever comes. You’re not really setting the direction of your life. Intentionality is quite fundamental and leads into ideas about productivity, normal habits and many other concepts that are rooted in it. It is hard to remember, though.
Joe: What a challenge. It’s a bit of a paradox, because there is also some level of flow in life. It isn’t all just, “I’m on the mind. It’s all me pushing all this energy all the time.” Intentionality combines with this natural flow, for lack of a better term, and some of the things Darren discussed. It’s a funny combination.
Intentionality is one of my favourite words. It describes the attitude and posture you take towards things. It isn’t specific to your pursuit, main interest or career. No matter what you’re doing—whether you’re a stay-at-home parent or CEO of the World Incorporated—you can be intentional. In fact, you probably should be intentional because time is finite. If you’re not intentional, your agenda is set by external factors rather than factors you’ve consciously chosen and opted into, which is very powerful and important over the long run.
James’ Favourite Failures#
Joe: Another thing I think we should cover is failure. It’s very easy to come on podcasts and share a lot of interesting ideas, but you mentioned transparency before. It’s valuable to see that the people you’re listening to haven’t always been crash hot or the host of Graduate Theory, or whatever they’re doing now.
It would be interesting to discuss failure. You’re still super young and early in the typical career journey, but do any failures stand out at this point in time? Maybe there were setbacks that had a silver lining or led to a key lesson. Is there anything like that you can unpack?
James: It’s a good question. I haven’t had any failures that were life-ruining or really crushed me.
Joe: You haven’t gone broke and had to start again. You weren’t fired or kicked out.
James: I haven’t had any horror stories. My upbringing has been quite good, and I’m very fortunate in many regards—or many aspects, at least.
I was thinking about this question even before the podcast, and I’m going to choose two.
Joe: You’re allowed two.
James: Maybe these weren’t particular moments of failure, but things I didn’t do as well as I would have liked and that caused me to improve in the future.
The first was that I coasted through my first three years of uni. I wasn’t intentional about what I was doing, as we were just discussing. I did almost the bare minimum and coasted along. In hindsight, I wish I had done more.
That changed when I went on exchange. In the first semester of 2019, I went to Sheffield in the UK for six months. Throughout the experience, I did video blogs—or my own video journals. The night before I came back to Australia, I was walking down the street and recording myself on my phone. I talked about what I wanted to do when I arrived back in Australia. I’d been away for so long, and it was the first time I’d been away from my family, friends and everything else for that length of time.
I was reflecting on my university experience and life generally. I thought, “This hasn’t been as good as I wanted it to be. I know I can get more out of it, and when I come back to Adelaide, there’s more I can be doing and things I can do much better.”
That experience and time away made me realise that I hadn’t been as intentional as I knew I could have been. It was a big catalyst going into my final three semesters of uni. From that point, my grades were significantly better. I think I wrote a blog post about this on my website, where my university grades are listed. The grades are down here, and then they’re way up here once I returned—the average grades, I mean. Once I came back, I did significantly better in my grades, life and everything. That was a great experience for me.
The second one probably wasn’t a failure per se, but it was something I didn’t do as well as I could have, and it resulted in me doing things better. It was in the second semester of 2019, the first semester after I’d returned from Sheffield. Internships were coming up because I was in my penultimate—or second-to-last—year. You apply for internships in the last summer before your final year.
I didn’t get into anything particularly good or anything I really wanted. Fortunately, a company in Adelaide called the RAA, which is the roadside assistance company, also had an internship. I got that one, which was a really great experience, but I got it right at the end, after all the major companies had already completed their processes.
I had a great experience there, but it got me thinking: “This time next year, when I’m applying for graduate roles—which are probably more important than internships—I need to take this process much more seriously.” When the graduate roles opened around February the following year, I created a massive spreadsheet. I put in every job I applied for, where I was up to and other information so I could be much clearer about what I was doing.
One problem I had when applying for internships was that I was talking crap to myself and overstating what I’d actually done. I might sit there thinking, “I’ve applied for so many jobs,” when in reality I’d only applied for five or something. The idea in my head of what I’d done wasn’t the same as what I’d actually done.
For the graduate roles, I wrote everything down so I could see exactly how many I’d applied for and how things were going. If I was unhappy with the way it looked, it was on me to make it better. It was good that I had that earlier experience because this spreadsheet helped me do the process much better. Fortunately, I got a graduate role at ANZ, which is where I am now. So far, it’s been really incredible, and it was the reason I moved to Melbourne, as we discussed at the start.
That has led to so many things: everything that has happened through moving and meeting new people—even meeting you this year. So much has happened this year that stemmed from those decisions. Although the initial experience wasn’t necessarily a failure or something that turned out terribly, it gave me perspective on what I was doing, allowed me to improve and led to better things the following year.
Joe: It’s powerful stuff, James. I want to touch on both points, if I may. I can speak about the first part more broadly. I think we’ve discussed the travel experience before. In my little world, I use the metaphor of a bucket. It’s a good opportunity, especially for young people, to empty everything they’re doing in life—and all the people around them—out of the bucket for a window of time, because it enables reflection.
It’s hard to reflect on a situation when you’re in it. You can’t see the outside of a car when you’re inside it driving. It’s good to get out and actually look at it. When you travel, especially on exchange, it isn’t just travel: it’s immersion somewhere else, where you’re ingrained in another way of life. You might not get that from a holiday where you stay in hostels, hotels or whatever.
It is very common in the stories of famous entrepreneurs that travel, especially in the East, was a real switch. You won’t find that among conventional university or career hacks, when everyone is trying to get the grades or the best jobs, or whatever the goal is. It seems counterintuitive, but I want to emphasise it because you’ve given a powerful example. My broader observation, based on my own experience, is that true immersion, like an exchange, tends to have that impact.
It also answered another question: why you go for the Blades. Now I know you were in Sheffield. That’s a soccer reference for anyone unfamiliar.
On the other point, I think it was important how you described your lack of intentionality, followed by the fire to rebound from that and make good the next time. You put great language to it. How often do we convince ourselves we’ve done a great job when we actually haven’t done much? I still do that often: “Why am I not getting these results or more of this and that? I’m great. I’m doing great stuff.” Then, if it’s for work, I realise, “I’m actually not promoting things very much. What am I complaining about? It’s me.”
Our minds are easily deceived little tools, aren’t they? They’re easily deceived into a state of entitlement, because we normally resist doing the work at first. Your story is a great example of getting into gear, preparing and then seeing the results. If I were 20 or 21 and listening to that, it would fire me up to get proactive right now. Why not? You have the call to action. It isn’t hard; it’s a process, and you get results. You’re a good example of that.
Those are powerful lessons, and people can take them or make the mistakes themselves and then realise. You have an option, don’t you?
James: In the example where I didn’t get the jobs I really wanted, if you’re not getting to the places you want to go, your work isn’t being seen by the people you want to see it, or things aren’t going the way you want, then it’s on you.
It isn’t that the company is making a mistake by not seeing your greatness. Maybe they missed you or there was an error, but it isn’t helpful to put it on them. It’s up to you. If your work isn’t being seen by the right people or you’re not getting the roles you want, it is your responsibility. No one is going to come and help you. No one is as passionate about you as you are.
Joe: To consolidate that, there is a cop-out answer: “They just don’t get my value.” Hands up, I’ve done that many times, so I claim no moral high ground. But if you go through all these situations without taking any responsibility, that isn’t helpful.
You might flip it and talk about leadership. When a sporting team puts in a terrible performance, you never see a good coach go into the press conference and say, “I gave them a great game plan. The boys let me down, or the girls let me down. They’re rubbish. James at right mid was terrible; Joe at centre mid was terrible.” You don’t say that, but how many times is it actually the case? The coach always seems to take responsibility and take it off the players as an example of leadership. You might consolidate your lesson into leadership of yourself.
There are always politics at companies and constraints on hiring processes. There might be CVs and applications; it isn’t as though everyone is interviewed face-to-face all the time. Storytelling and interpretation are involved. There are factors you can’t control, but you don’t get to control them. That’s why acknowledging what you can take responsibility for is your point, or at least what I found in your story. You also can’t guarantee someone will hire you.
But what you took control of was a pretty good bet. You’re going to get somewhere when you take that approach. You could take the mindset, “I did the work; they just didn’t appreciate me,” but where is that going to get you, even if it’s true? That was my interpretation of your story. I think it’s an important part of life and a great thing to learn at a young age. I don’t know if that makes sense.
James: It does. I think it came across well. There are many situations where it is easy to blame other people for why you’re not getting somewhere or why bad things are happening. It’s important to ask, “What role did I have in this situation? How can I make it better? What mistakes did I make?” Even if you didn’t make any mistakes, take as much responsibility as you can, because almost everything happening in your life is your fault, and try to shoulder that.
The key is that no one is going to come and fix your problems for you. You have to do it yourself. No one will come and ask, “Do you want a job at your dream company?” No one will ever do that. It’s on you to get those opportunities. That’s something I’ve learnt and will continue to learn, but I think it’s quite important.
How does James want to be described?#
Joe: Moving on, you’ve started this journey and are well underway with Graduate Theory. Do you consciously think about how you want to be described and seen for the work you’re doing and the values you’re bringing to it? How do you want people to think about and describe you, if you get a choice in cultivating that?
James: That’s a difficult question. Often, with something like a podcast, you can have a brand, but the brand is almost just a reflection of myself and my values. That’s often the case with companies: the company’s values usually reflect whoever is in charge and the people who run it. Their values filter down.
The way I want to be known, and the way I hope it is reflected in Graduate Theory, is that I want to provide inspiration. I want to be an example showing people that they can go out and do things too. Coming back to the self-doubt we discussed earlier, I want to be an example of someone overcoming those things. People can achieve things in life if they want and don’t have to be held back by expectations or doubts.
I hope that comes through in the podcast and the things I do more generally. It’s hard to detach the podcast from my life; they’re really the same thing. That would probably be one of the main points.
This whole idea of personal responsibility is also important. I try to practise it, and people can take and apply it in their own lives. Taking personal responsibility for everything going on is something I try to do and hope comes across.
How would younger James react to Graduate Theory?#
Joe: I’m curious about the version of you before you went on exchange. How would that version of you have responded to this podcast simply as a listener? Not, “This is what I’m going to do in the future.” Pretend Joe runs the Graduate Theory podcast, though Joe obviously has a huge overlap with you. What impact would it have had? Would you have listened to things like this at that time?
James: I would have listened, but it would have been one of those things where I listened and that was it. I would have ticked it off: “I listened to a productivity podcast today. Cool.” But there wasn’t a connection between, “Here’s what I listened to and what they said,” and, “Here’s what I’m going to change about the things I do.” That disconnect was definitely there.
Even last year, I read heaps of books almost just for the sake of it. There wasn’t a connection to a problem I was trying to fix. I don’t want to read just because reading is good and Bill Gates reads, so I should read too. It should be, “Here is a problem I have. Here’s what I’m going to do to fix it, and here are the tools I’ll use: I’m going to look at these books, listen to this particular podcast and do these things.”
Coming at it that way is almost intentionality: when I’m reading or listening, what am I trying to get out of it, and what will I use from it? If I had listened to this years ago, that connection probably wouldn’t have been there. I hope it comes across in the podcast that we don’t only speak about these topics; we also cover their application. If we speak about self-doubt, how do you address it?
Many things I read and listen to don’t make that connection. They say, “Don’t let self-doubt hold you back.” You motivated me—that’s great—but what do I actually do? It’s hard to work that out, but having an actual action step is important. Not only listening to the action step but doing it matters too. You could sit many people down and say, “Do this, this and this, and you’ll get this result,” and they still won’t do it. Still, having action steps there for those who do want to act is important.
Joe: That’s a big point. I have one more question for you after this, but if we riff on self-doubt for a little while, I want to avoid blanket motivational statements like, “Don’t let self-doubt hold you back. Don’t be afraid.” Talk is cheap, right?
My thinking is that you overcome it by going through it. Going back to your reference to Andrew, you’ve gone through self-doubt over career risks or creative risks a couple of times. Then you become familiar with it and get used to it. As you said, action steps—taking steps to get to the other side and having gone through the process—are the key to overcoming it in my mind.
Your best example is probably Graduate Theory: releasing it for the first time and thinking, “Is this weird? Do people want to hear me interviewing people?” There is also reaching out to guests, with the potential for rejection or embarrassment and thoughts like, “Am I bothering this person?”
If people listening want to know, “How do I overcome that? James seems to be overcoming it because he’s been there,” I would point to those things. I don’t know whether you have any comments or anything to add.
James: There have been instances where I’ve overcome self-doubt—maybe successfully; we’ll find out. To return to the action steps, the first is to notice what you’re experiencing. Notice that you are having self-doubt.
Let’s say a new position comes up at work that you think you’d like to do, but you’re not sure whether to apply. Or you’ve applied, aren’t sure whether you’ll get it and don’t believe you could do the role. The first step is to notice that you’re experiencing that. The second is to ask why: where does it come from? Do you not believe in yourself generally? Does it link back to some childhood or high-school experience? That’s an interesting topic we could discuss another time. Why are you thinking that way? Perhaps you can identify the reasons.
Then try to rebuild your confidence a little and say, “Doing this is going to be good for these reasons.” Andrew said that chances are, if you’ve applied and gone that far, you’re capable of doing the thing. You wouldn’t have thought about doing it if you weren’t able to.
Recognise that feeling and sink into it. Darren would say, “Sit with it. Feel where it is in your body. Sit down, close your eyes and experience as much of it as you can. Then let it do its thing.”
Joe: It wants to be expressed. That’s what he said.
James: In my experience, there have been times when opportunities have come up and I’ve put myself forward, but even during the process I’ve thought, “I can’t do this. They won’t pick me because I’m not good enough,” or whatever it is.
As time has passed, I’ve found I would have been pretty good at doing those things, including opportunities I didn’t get. Seeing the people in those positions I didn’t think I could fill, they’re not anything special, and I easily could have done it as well. It is definitely difficult to get through self-doubt, and still quite vague, but I feel it’s something you have to go through.
Joe: That is worth giving people comfort over. It is vague because it’s specific to the individual. Any high-level concept is hard to talk through, which is why so many people work in personal development and self-awareness. From spirituality to practical career matters, there is so much in there.
You talked about who you were before you went on exchange. This might have gone over your head at the time, but one thing I notice about this journey is that, on some level, people start by reading books and listening to podcasts. They consume content before they take action because it’s an easier step and they’re getting ready. Then it all sinks in.
The podcast you glossed over may not have given you one thing you immediately implemented, but it prepared you. Three years later, after going on exchange, the message from those podcasts had been trying to reach you and was sinking in. On a broader level, nothing you hear in one podcast episode will dissolve all your self-doubt. I want to zoom out and draw your attention to the fact that it’s a process.
James, people now have transparency into your story and can see how the process went for you. I think that makes it okay, because you’re at some point on that journey. If someone is listening to this, we know that they are somewhere on the journey too. They might simply be listening because Graduate Theory is a great podcast, or they might be facing this as a natural part of their early career. Everyone has self-doubt. There is so much comparison and so many measurable outcomes: “I did or didn’t get it.”
It’s quite a journey. We can’t tell you how long it will take, and it will probably never be completely done, but you get used to it and it becomes easier. Patience and process are important too. It’s an ongoing journey.
The last thing I want to end on, if we could, is to give you a taste of your own medicine.
James’ Tip For Graduates#
Joe: What is one tip you would give to new graduates? I believe that’s your final question, but what’s one tip you would give to new graduates today?
James: The main thing is to be intentional about what you’re doing. That’s so important. Let’s say you look forward one year: what would make this a successful year for you, and what things are you going to do this year that would be good? Even when it comes to networking, be intentional about who you’re networking with and make that something you participate in.
Life is an adventure, so you’ve got to go out and make stuff yourself. Coming back to what we were talking about before, no one’s going to make your experience great for you. No one’s going to sit there and say, “This is the perfect opportunity for you. Here you go.” You have to create that stuff yourself and meet the people you want to meet. They’re not going to come to you.
You’ve got to seek the opportunities you want because no one’s going to bring them to you. Take life with both hands, embrace the world and seek things yourself. That’s the lesson I try to apply, and it would be my lesson to a new graduate as well.
Life’s an adventure and a fantastic journey, but you’ve got to get in there, get in the arena and make the most of it. Take life with both hands. That’s fundamental not only during your graduate experience, but throughout your entire life. Tackle stuff head-on and get involved. Don’t sit on the sidelines mocking or watching people who are doing cool stuff; get in there, meet people, participate and do cool stuff yourself. That’s something I’ve grown into doing this year, and I’d recommend it to everyone.
Joe: That’s it. James Fricker says, ladies and gentlemen: get off your arse, stop sitting on your hands and seize it.
Outro#
Joe: What else do you need to hear? Powerfully put. What a way to end. Thank you very much, James. I hope I met spec and did the show justice. A big reminder for everyone: the best episode is episode one, of course, so go back to the start if you’re new. As is customary, remind them where they can find you and where they can get more.
James: The show notes for this episode are the best place, because they’ll have all the links. GraduateTheory.com has everything, including more about the episode. We’re also on Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube. All the links will be in the show notes, but GraduateTheory.com is the main place to find everything.
Thanks so much for coming on today, Joe. We’ve had a good, deep chat, and I hope it’s useful for listeners who want to find out more about me, the podcast and things like that. I appreciate you coming on and speaking to me. We covered some interesting and useful concepts today, hopefully almost as useful as having a guest on.
Joe: Certainly. Thanks for the privilege. Until next time.
James: Thanks for listening to this episode of Graduate Theory. I hope you enjoyed hearing me talk for a little longer than usual today. Hopefully some of those lessons were useful and you can apply them in your own life, because we’re not just about stating concepts and giving you motivation. It’s also about what you can do to apply these things.
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I hope you’re enjoying the Christmas break, whatever you might be doing over this period. Thanks so much for listening again today. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.